David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our walk through the Book of John. Last time, we traced the theme of signs through the Bible because John is a book of signs that point to Jesus and show who He is, what He's like, and ultimately that He is God in the flesh come to bring his life to us. And now, we are going to trace the theme of water through the Bible, which is a humongous theme in John. And to give ourselves a little more breathing room, [laughs] we are going to do this probably in two episodes. One today, where we walk through the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, and see how the theme of water develops, and understanding what it's doing in the biblical imagination, and how God thinks about it and uses it and references it. And then, uh, next time, we will apply all of that, God-willing, to [laughs] John and see all the biblical threads that John is pulling on and the many, many times that he uses water. So that's the game plan. Christine, are you ready to splash about in the pools of the Old Testament? [laughs] I don't know the right question to ask here.
Christine: I'm ready to dive in.
David: Dive in. That's so immeasurably better than mine was. [laughs] That's, that's what I should've said.
Christine: [laughs]
David: Dive in. Just get, everyone just get ready for water puns. They're gonna come out. Yeah.
Christine: They're gonna gush forth at unexpected times.
David: That's right.
Christine: So-
David: They're gonna hit you wave after wave.
Christine: That's for sure.
David: Yeah, I mean, I'm foaming at the mouth to get... [laughs] Like, you know, like sea foam on a wave.
Christine: I, I don't know.
David: [laughs]
Christine: I just don't like that coming out of your mouth. [laughs]
David: That's fair. That's super fair. All right. So before we jump fully into the Old Testament, let's at least introduce us all and refamiliarize us with why we're talking about water in relation to John's gospel. I mean, let's just name a few. Like, John highlights Jesus' baptism, like a lot of the gospel authors does. Jesus turns water into wine. He talks about being born of water and the Spirit. What else is popping out to you, Christine?
Christine: Yeah, I mean, John mentions water in almost every, almost every chapter.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Uh, Jesus gives living water to a thirsty woman in chapter four. He heals a crippled man by the Bethesda pool in chapter five. In chapter six, He walks on water. There's the Feast of Tabernacles, where He invites people to come to him and drink when there's water trickling down beside him. So there is-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... there is a lot, and I can't wait to jump into all those. But to create some framework, I guess, it'll be helpful to look at the Old Testament's use of water and how John would've understood water's function in the world.
David: Yeah, it's helpful to do this because when Jesus says, you know, l- living water is gonna well up inside of you, what is He talking about? Whenever He says, "Oh, well, come and drink from Me and you'll never thirst again," what, why is He using that language?
Christine: Yeah.
David: In order to understand why John is saturating [laughs] his gospel with water imagery, we have to understand the world in which he lived, and by that I mean the world of his Hebrew scriptures in which he lived because he's pulling on all of these streams of thought [laughs] and bringing them to a head here. So let's do it. You ready?
Christine: Yes, let's go.
David: Okay. The very first time we find water in the Bible is...
Christine: Genesis 1.
David: What? [laughs] I'm just-
Christine: Shocking.
David: Shocking. What do you know?
Christine: Yes.
David: Any theme that's worthwhile [laughs] you just see it right there at the beginning. And so yeah, walk us through. When's the first time we meet water in Genesis 1?
Christine: It's the second verse of Genesis 1, which is talking about the formless and empty emptiness that is present before God creates anything, and we see that the Spirit of God is hovering over the face of the waters.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So-
David: The formless world is, is wild and waste. It's chaos and disorder, and it's described then metaphorically as water.
Christine: Yes.
David: Because that is what water is like. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. Something that might be helpful is that nothing was not really a concept for a Hebrew mind.
David: Right.
Christine: We think of-
David: God creating something
Christine: ... God creating ex nihilo, which was not an idea for John and others like him. Water is a symbol of disorder. You know, c- you can't really hold water. You can't take some water and put it over here and expect it to stay that way. It's not substantial or reliable. You can't-
David: It doesn't really behave like anything else.
Christine: No.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And something that we notice, not just in the Bible but in our everyday lives, is water is sometimes life-giving and sometimes it's death-bringing.
David: Yes, and-
Christine: And so-
David: We're gonna see that a lot as we unpack all of these.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah, but when you, uh, thinking about the primordial waters, the waters of chaos and disorder, it's such an apt metaphor.
Christine: It is.
David: Because it's, it's-
Christine: It-
David: ... turbulent. It's moving. If you fall in and you're on a boat and you fall into the deep waters, you are sunk. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: It's not, it's not good. And there's, you know, now we'll get to it, but, like, there's creatures down there that, that's... It's associated with death even.
Christine: Yeah. It's not suitable for human life.
David: Yeah, there you go.
Christine: And the Bible talks about human life and humans' life with God, and the water is not where that occurs.
David: Yeah. So in the opening of the Bible, water is associated with death.
Christine: At least in the first chapter.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Chaos. It's the problem.
Christine: It's the problem, yeah.
David: Yeah, water is the problem, and it needs to be subdued and conquered and ordered and later filled. And so how does God solve the problem of w- chaotic waters in the beginning, and who do we see doing it I think is also important for John. I'm just thi- thinking about.
Christine: Yeah, so I think you're referring to the verse just before verse one. Or sorry, verse two, which is verse one where God creates the heavens and the Earth-
David: Mm
Christine: ... out of this formless and empty, chaotic-Wasteland. And wasteland is not the right choice there, but waterland [laughs]-
David: [laughs] Waterland
Christine: ... which is a contradiction. Okay.
David: [laughs]
Christine: I'm, I'm not doing well here.
David: The waterland. That's really funny.
Christine: Yeah. God is there in the beginning, and he is going to create order where there is disorder and fill what is empty. And we see that pan out through the days of creation in chapter 1, where God builds up the, or he creates the heavens, he creates Earth, he separates the water and raises the land out of it. So the water is given a name, it's called the seas, and that has perimeter, it has boundaries now. And the land is not in the sea or part of the sea, it's separate from the sea and also has boundaries. And all these spaces, the heavens, the sea, and the land are then filled because emptiness was also a problem.
David: Mm.
Christine: So once God has created order in the first three days, he fills the spaces with life.
David: Yeah. So the, the two problems that we meet in the water imagery of uncreation is formlessness and emptiness.
Christine: Exactly, yes.
David: And so God, as the one who's going to find a solution to the problem of the waters, is he brings form out of the waters, building perimeters, raising land, and then he fills those spaces with life. Those, that space that was formerly full of death or emptiness is now full of life.
Christine: Yes.
David: Because ... And it's really cool to think he pulls land out of the water, and that's a place where we live.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's our realm of life. He separates the ex- the waters from above from the waters below.
Christine: Below, yeah, yeah. And puts the firmament between them, which is the sky or the heavens.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So-
David: And that-
Christine: ... we've got waters above the heavens and waters below the heavens
David: ... what is that? Clouds? Or like what, what is waters in the heavens? Is that just where rain comes from? Like how am I supposed to think about heaven water? [laughs]
Christine: It's what comes crashing back when the flood comes. So when uncreation happens, we see these boundaries and distinctions that were made in Genesis 1 collapse back into themselves. So mountains go back into the water. The two waters, the waters above the heavens and the waters below the heavens that are under the earth burst forth and collapse-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and destroy all of creation except for the microcosm of the ark.
David: Interesting.
Christine: So-
David: It'd be wrong for me to think in Genesis 1:1 and 2, well, the image that pops into my head is of like a globe covered in water.
Christine: Hmm.
David: And so I think about a surface. All, I'm already thinking about a surface.
Christine: Okay.
David: And, and then atmosphere-
Christine: Well, John didn't know what a globe was.
David: Right.
Christine: So.
David: [laughs] Right. Or Moses or [laughs] yeah. I, I'm already thinking of an atmosphere. I'm already thinking of sky and horizon and-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... I'm already thinking of separation-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... that hasn't been brought into the poem yet.
Christine: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
David: Right?
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so but it's just water.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It's all emptiness.
Christine: Water's e- yeah.
David: It's everywhere.
Christine: There's no globe really-
David: There's no globe yet
Christine: ... 'cause there's no shape yet.
David: It's not contained, it's not shaped.
Christine: It's formless.
David: It's all of it.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Like a galaxy of water.
Christine: Gosh.
David: Which is weird to think about. I didn't realize I had that picture in my head until I'm starting to inhabit the poem where God separates water above and water below and creates a space in between-
Christine: Yes
David: ... where that's inhabitable, that where life can occur. And the water above, yes, we can encounter with, in the form of rain and things like that.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And we can see it in clouds and, but then there's water below, the waters of the deep-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... which we see the surface of in the seas.
Christine: Yes.
David: But there's also the waters of the deep that burst forth in the flood, and God is holding those two things apart in his order and in his power.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But then we're gonna see later in the flood, those two things start joining back together, and uncreation starts filling the expanse where creation separated it.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay, that's really helpful for me. I don't think I've ever quite had that picture in my head. So in the beginning, water is the problem. It's death. It needs to be ordered and organized and conquered.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And God does that.
Christine: And he happens. Yeah.
David: And fills it with form and life.
Christine: Yes.
David: He brings life-
Christine: He sol-
David: ... into death.
Christine: Yes. In the first telling of creation, God solves the two problems that exist by doing their opposite, basically, which we'll just be repeating what you said, but he creates form out of the formless-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and he fills the empty.
David: Okay.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And we're, we get this picture of this happening as the spirit hovers over the waters.
Christine: That's right, yeah.
David: 'Cause I think as we have an eye to John, he tends to talk about spirit and water together.
Christine: He does, yes.
David: And this is where we see it. It's on page one, sentence one almost, where it's just spirit and water are working together. As I have an eye to John and I'm trying to think about these themes of water, what John also does is he puts together water and spirit, and that's what we see here in the first few sentences of the Bible, is the spirit hovering over the waters. So inhabiting this poem in Genesis 1, why is spirit and water, why are those things working together? I, I'm thinking of like wind sweeping over water and creating waves. I'm, I'm like why is it the spirit hovering over the waters-
Christine: Oh, interesting
David: ... that, that is the picture, the metaphor, the analogy of how Eden was created, how life was created?
Christine: It might be life coming to the rescue of death.
David: 'Cause God is life.
Christine: Yes, God is life and is coming in generosity, as I've heard someone say. [laughs]
David: [laughs] I think you're talking about me.
Christine: Coming, yeah, coming in compassion and love towards what cannot-
David: Mm
Christine: ... really do much about its own state. And the spirit comes close and gets ready to breathe-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... life and salvation-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... into, into the chaos.
David: I think that's good. Yeah, the spirit, God is spirit.He comes as life itself and broods over almost like a, like a mother hen, like-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... ready to bring life to a place of death.
Christine: Yeah. Now that we're on that meditation, I find it deeply beautiful and encouraging, the imagery of hovering-
David: Mm
Christine: ... because there are other creation myths out there where the sky god does battle with the storm god, and then creation happens.
David: Right.
Christine: But there's always a clash and a conflict where life versus death is full-on combat, 'cause they're kind of equals. And here there's the formless and void, and it's all water. There's no place to stand literally, and God, who is life, comes close and draws near in this hovering kind of language-
David: Mm
Christine: ... that doesn't seem aggressive or belligerent. It's one that's gentle and in control and not the equal of the chaos.
David: That's right. There's no contention. There's no battle.
Christine: No.
David: There's no slaying.
Christine: Yeah.
David: There's just control and power, and he doesn't have to come and splash down or wield a sword.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He just hovers.
Christine: He draws near and says, "Let there be light."
David: Yeah.
Christine: And there's light.
David: That's awesome.
Christine: There's no opposition. There's, you could say, a gentle whisper-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... almost. That's not the language it's-
David: Right
Christine: ... it's speaking, which the word is very important in that picture as well.
David: Okay, so that's the first time we meet water.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But we come to a second picture of water very quickly in the Bible, and it is the exact opposite [laughs] which is-
Christine: That's right
David: ... fascinating because here water's the problem, water's death, water's empty. But in Genesis 2, we see a different picture.
Christine: Yeah, and it's funny because it's retelling creation again but f- with a different perspective or with a different angle, and there are similarities and there are differences, the similarities being this is retelling the story of creation. What did God do to create the world and to create order and life? But the landscape is different 'cause this time it is a landscape. This time instead of an overabundance of water, there is an arid desert. There is no water.
David: Mm.
Christine: So another similarity is that there are two problems that the creator comes and solves.
David: The first time it was formlessness and emptiness.
Christine: Yes. Yes.
David: And this time what are the two problems?
Christine: The two pr- well, we can read it.
David: Okay.
Christine: So in Genesis 2:4, it's begins again with the story. "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground." So we see the two problems.
David: Oh, so there's no vegetable life, no plant life.
Christine: There's no vegetation.
David: And there's no human, no man-
Christine: To work the-
David: ... no Adam to work that vegetation, life if it was even there.
Christine: Exactly. So there's no irrigation.
David: Right. Seems like the problem is because there had not been rain yet.
Christine: Yes, correct.
David: So the first problem was there's too much water-
Christine: And now-
David: ... and now there's not enough [laughs] water
Christine: ... now we're in a drought, yeah. Now the earth is thirsty and there's-
David: It's really funny
Christine: ... there's no one to work and tend and keep the world. So we know that Genesis 1 ends with the creation of man, and Genesis 2 is taking us toward a garden.
David: Mm.
Christine: So what do you need for a garden? You definitely need water, and you need a man. And so we know we're gonna be moving towards that, but this is a creation story, so there are two problems that the creator's going to solve, and the first one is that there is no rain, and the second one is that there is no man to work the ground. But verse six, "Streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground." First problem seems to be solved. There's moisture. There's water now. And verse seven, "The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." And-
David: There's the spirit again.
Christine: Yep, and the man became a living being. So we have water for the earth and even water to help create man. God forms Adam from this moistened ground and breathes life into him, and so we see again man is this blend of heaven and earth 'cause he has the breath of life, the breath of God in him. He is made of the adamah-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and he is the Adam, which is-
David: He's made of earth, and he is the earth-dwelling man.
Christine: Yes, but he's animated dust. He's this-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... he's this living, walking, moving creature-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... of the land. And so-
David: Who's full of water.
Christine: Yes. [laughs] And so-
David: What is it, we're 70% water or something like that? [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, something-
David: Whatever that weird stat is
Christine: ... high like that.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And then we s- continue to see, again, there are these two problems that God is working on creating. So what happens next? "Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east in Eden, and there he put the man he had formed. And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground, trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." So not only do we have a garden now, we have trees. We have plants.
David: Mm.
Christine: We have so much, and we might think, "Well, that's all fine and good," but God seems to solve the dry problem even more 'cause we have a garden, but we also have the whole earth that's needing irrigation. So what does God do? In verse 10, "A river watering the garden flowed from Eden." A river, that's good.
David: That's good.
Christine: And from there it's separated into four headwaters. So there's a river that's very good, and God takes that river and divides it up into four different rivers so that it-
David: For north, east, south, and west
Christine: ... so it flows in a- in all directions from Eden.
David: To water the whole earth.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay, so let me pause-
Christine: Okay
David: ... and, and reiterate here. So-In the first occurrence of water, there's too much of it, and there's no land, there's no place for life. It's all formless and empty. And so God orders it and brings life out of it. Here, we have an arid desert that needs water, and so God brings a garden out of it, and th- by bringing water.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He brings water out of the earth and creates a garden, and then makes man as a blend of earth and water and spirit to work that land. But then that land that he's in, that garden of life and water and order that he's in and, and tending, God then spreads out to the whole earth that's still arid and, and wilderness and needing to become a garden, what it was made to be. But it's not yet. And he does that by sending the waters of Eden out in all directions like a snow melt off the mountain-
Christine: Yes
David: ... to cover the earth with life-
Christine: Yes
David: ... and order.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Christine: So, yeah, we see the water problem solved when the river splits and fills the land with life.
David: Okay.
Christine: And so, so you have the water flowing in all directions now, now that the river's divided, and then God brings the man into the garden so that he can tend the garden. But we s- just like we had one river, now we have one man, and God says it's not good for the man to be alone, and he divides the man up as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Adam goes into a deep sleep, and God forms from his side a woman, and now they can go and fill the earth with life, too, and tend the garden.
David: So they, m- man and woman, become like the life-giving water-
Christine: Yes
David: ... that is meant to be separated and multiplied to fill the earth and bring the garden-tending vocation-
Christine: Yes
David: ... to the ends of the earth.
Christine: Bring flourishing to everywhere.
David: That's so cool.
Christine: 'Cause yeah, Adam, now that the water's going and irrigating the world, that's all good, but Adam's still one human, so he might be able to tend a garden, but not for long, not once the garden grows. So he needs help. He needs like. So just like the river branched into four-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... God separates the river, God separates man in a similar way and creates a- another likeness that is gonna help Adam fulfill that commission to fill the earth with life.
David: So humans are supposed to be like water [laughs]
Christine: Bringing life-
David: Bringing life
Christine: ... to dry places.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: As they are animated and filled with the Spirit of God, who is life itself.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay?
Christine: Yeah. And the fact that the solution to the two problems is rivers and a bride is very significant 'cause woman and water are connected throughout the Bible later in another significant theme, which I think we'll un-
David: I'm sure we will
Christine: ... unpack.
David: Those are brought together because i- uh, just to, you know, so I'm understanding it, because the waters are separated and spread out and multiply in the same way man is separated-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... into man and woman so that-
Christine: Yes
David: ... they might spread out and multiply.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's how you're saying marriage and water are connected.
Christine: Yes. And Genesis 2 expounds on that because they are separated, but they're separated to come back together, and that's how they create life.
David: That's right.
Christine: And Adam shares the poem of, "This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man." And then it says, "For this reason," and the whole purpose of man's separation is so that they can come together to multiply.
David: That's awesome.
Christine: So God math is kind of cool. But-
David: I also like, I just heard this in a book I was reading, it has nothing to do with water, but [laughs] he said the, the first time humans speak in the Bible, it's spoken word poetry. [laughs] Right here in, in the poem you just read-
Christine: Oh
David: ... "Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh." And I was like, "That's funny."
Christine: Spoken word poetry?
David: I mean, it's poetry that was spoken.
Christine: Okay. [laughs]
David: [laughs] As a spoken-
Christine: That was-
David: ... word poet, I was like, "I like that."
Christine: Yeah, that's-
David: I'm happy with that
Christine: ... beautiful. Uh-huh, yeah. Well-
David: And all of creation was made through spoken word poetry, so you know. Okay, digression. All right, so sometimes water is death, sometimes water is life. Sometimes water's the problem, sometimes water's the solution. [laughs]
Christine: Ha. Funny.
David: Ah, solution.
Christine: 'Cause water's a solution.
David: Yeah. And man is to- meant to become like water that's filled with the life of the spirit, separating and spreading out to cover and water the world so it becomes like the garden. And the reason it needs to be a garden is because in Genesis and in the time it was written, gods lived in gardens. Gardens were temples.
Christine: Yes. And God made this garden here.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And-
David: It's his temple-
Christine: Yes
David: ... that he made to live in with people.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so when we think about the Garden of Eden as a well-watered place in which God lives, we need to have temple imagery in our mind, but we also need to be thinking about the, a cohabited temple, that it's a place that God didn't want to dwell in by himself, but that he wanted to invite s- humans in to co-dwell with him and to spread the tent pegs of that tabernacle out to cover the world.
Christine: Yes. And there's water flowing out of this temple as well.
David: Yes. And so water flows out of the temple to go and plant gardens all around the world so that the whole world might become the temple of God.
Christine: Yes. That's a helpful way to see it, because the way the tabernacle or the realm of God spreads is by rivers and people running out of the source and irrigating lands of death to be lands of life.
David: That's right. That's the imagery we're dealing with here. And it, it also bears to note that the garden is held by even the Bible itself to be on a mountain.
Christine: Yes.
David: That it was a garden mount.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Because gods also dwelled on mountains, and so it makes sense then why the water runs down.
Christine: Yeah, that's how you know it's a mountain, 'cause if water's flowing away in four different [laughs] directions-
David: Yes
Christine: ... you, you're on a mountaintop.
David: That's exactly right. So then when you run into that language later in the Bible, which we will, I, I hope, God willing, as we go through this, you're going to see mountains flowing with water, flowing with wine, bringing through this liquid life [laughs] new creation to the barren world around it.
Christine: Yes. And you're also gonna see water do a lot of death stuff-
David: Mm
Christine: ... in the Bible, too. So it'll be-Interesting. I'm looking forward to jumping into the rest of the Hebrew Bible here and see how the theme of water sometimes appears as life, sometimes as death, sometimes a bit of both.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And it's, sometimes it's clear-cut, sometimes it's not. So water, kind of like water itself-
David: Itself
Christine: ... doesn't allow itself to be clearly defined or contained. You just see it do things and think, "Oh, this seemed very life-giving. This drowned people."
David: Right.
Christine: So-
David: Well, speaking of, let's just go to the next big place we run into water in the Bible, which is the flood.
Christine: That is a big one. [laughs]
David: Yes. And so the world has turned away from God's original good creation and intent for it. It's turned away from this ordered garden that is ordered with life and all the things that God took out of the formless void and made ordered filling.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It's reverting back to death, violence, evil, un-creation. It's becoming like the wicked waters again.
Christine: That's right. And so God kind of brings them what they are already doing.
David: That's right.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so when God says, "I'm going to bring a flood," he's saying, "I'm going to hand you over to the world that you're creating."
Christine: Yes.
David: You chose to make the world this way, here it is. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. Instead of making the world, you are unmaking it.
David: Yes.
Christine: And-
David: And so I will give you what you want. [laughs] And that's what he does. The flood, as we hinted at earlier, is talked about as an unmaking of the created order, that the vault of the sky opens and pours out the waters from above, and the vaults of the Earth open and let the waters flow up from below.
Christine: Yes, and everything that has the breath of life in it dies.
David: Oh, right.
Christine: So life is also, life disappears from the face of the Earth. That which once filled the Earth is now gone.
David: Which is interesting to think about that as water is death, water is life in, in this way because we, we talked about how the breath of life being given from the spirit, who is life itself, comes like water onto dry ground to mold a man out of the dirt, and now the waters of the un-creation and flood are driving out, killing.
Christine: It drowns up the life.
David: The life that was in m- man, in all living beings.
Christine: Yes.
David: So here we have water is death.
Christine: And water here is also cleaning the world.
David: That's right. It's covering the face of the world, and it's easy for us to see it as punishment, as God giving people what they deserve. I think we can-
Christine: It seems the opposite of good at the very least because it's un-creation, but you also see the waters remove Noah from a corrupt generation.
David: That's right.
Christine: Create a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous.
David: Yes. But it's also rescuing God's world from deformation-
Christine: Yes
David: ... and, and restoring it ultimately back to its original intent, which is flourishing and life and goodness.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But it was going to be handed over to actual chaos and death and evil. It was going to go back to the primordial deep waters of chaos and void-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... um, unless God intervened with water.
Christine: Yeah. And we see the creation there happen again because a wind comes and blows on the floodwaters-
David: Right
Christine: ... and you have this microcosm of creation in the ark that lands where? On top of a mountain.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: There's the life that God spared, animals, birds, and people, and God gives them the same Edenic commission, to be fruitful and multiply, descend from the mountain, and fill the Earth, and that's where we get our covenant of God with the rainbow, which we talked about in the signs-
David: That's right
Christine: ... episode.
David: And so water is a problem in a sense.
Christine: Or a problem-solver.
David: It's a problem-solver, but it is death at least, but it's also bringing new creation life.
Christine: Yes.
David: That it's getting rid of everything that's deforming the world and handing it over to the chaos that it has chosen while at the same time rescuing life and righteousness and goodness and new creation and new humanity out of the chaotic waters in the ark, planting them in a new mountain temple garden, and sending them out for a new creation into the world. And so-
Christine: That's cool
David: ... here water is death, but it's death that cleans and creates life.
Christine: Yes. It's a problem for you if you are unrighteous.
David: Yes.
Christine: It's salvation for you if you are righteous.
David: That's right.
Christine: Yes.
David: It's interesting how Peter talks about this in his epistle where he says that they were saved by water.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Not from water.
Christine: They were saved by the water because it was a baptism. The whole world was baptized because it was covered in death, and that's what baptism is a symbol of, is-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... dying and coming back to life. So the death is drowned in the waters, and life rises from it cleaned.
David: It's amazing.
Christine: It's powerful. [laughs]
David: Yeah, and just to double-click on clean real quick 'cause it's about to come up again, not in the very next story, but soon. The reason why water cleans in the biblical story, which we'll see, is at least found here [laughs] in the flood, that the water wipes away, washes away impurity, death, unrighteousness, and it takes it away in order that it might die and that true life, that which is clean, might come to the surface.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so there, the, when we think about why is water cleaning, well, I know why, 'cause I understand germs and washing your hands and... But those aren't the categories that they were thinking.
Christine: Yes. In the same way that it does remove dirt from the body-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... it also removes sin and death from the world and from people.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So water is doing a double thing there.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And there's-
David: So that's-
Christine: ... water that's set as- side or set apart for that purpose, too.
David: Yeah. That's so cool. So that's the flood waters. As we move through the story of Genesis, we come to water in another interesting and unique way that John picks up on, and so we wanna stop there and highlight it. We talked earlier about how water and marriage go together, that as the waters were separated-And filled the earth and covered it with life. So man was separated and became man and woman, and they come together and spread life into the world. And so as we go through the story of Genesis, it's very appropriate that when God calls a people out of the broken [laughs] evil world of Babylon and fallen nations, the world is doing what it did again before the flood came. It's handing itself back over to chaos and evil. But God promised he's not going to destroy the world again in this way. He, he's going to save it in a different way, and the way he saves it is by bringing a new family out of these nations of chaos and evil, separating them again, uh, bringing the righteous out of the unrighteous and setting them apart and saying that through this line of Abraham, all the nations of the world will be blessed. And as the children of Abraham go and try to find their, quote, unquote, "Eve," their, their wife, the one with which they will join together to fill the world with new life in Eden, it is at wells-
Christine: Yes, it-
David: ... that they meet them. Water wells.
Christine: Yes. It's a very fun theme to notice when you see it. I would even add, like, it's not just marriage, but woman is closely associated with water.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I'm thinking of Miriam as an example, where she doesn't have a husband that we read about, but when Israel has water in the desert and when Israel doesn't have water in the desert is really closely connected to Miriam. And when you see Miriam crop up, water crops up.
David: Mm.
Christine: Think of Moses in the Nile. Miriam is right there. Think of just after they cross the Red Sea, Miriam leads the women in song.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Water disappears when Miriam dies, and the people grumble again, and Miriam and Marah are very closely-
David: Yes, they are
Christine: ... connected. Anyway, so women and water are very closely tied [laughs] to each other in the Genesis narrative at least, and it goes into the rest of the Bible as well. You see the patriarchs find their wives in a well-watered place.
David: Mm.
Christine: So Adam obviously found, and he's paradigmatic, I suppose, 'cause he found his wife, Eve, in a well-watered place.
David: That's right.
Christine: We talked about the rivers flowing out of Eden. And then Isaac's wife is also discovered at a well, Rebecca. And then Rachel is also discovered at a well, much to Jacob's delight. And you just, you keep seeing this. And in Exodus, Moses also finds his wife at a well.
David: Mm.
Christine: So it's just really closely connected.
David: Yeah. So the Bible continues to join these ideas of women, water, and weddings [laughs] kind of all together-
Christine: There you go
David: ... at wells. Women, water, weddings at wells. Uh-
Christine: Wow.
David: Wow. Wonderful. [laughs]
Christine: Water.
David: What's up with that? [laughs] That's another amazing thing to notice as we develop this theme because i- if you haven't noticed it now, and since we've already been talking about John's themes, y- you're noticing why John is stacking the themes he's stacking on top of each other is because as soon as you talk about new creation, you have to talk about water, and as soon as you talk about water, you have to talk about the Spirit. As soon as you have the Spirit and water, you have to talk about-
Christine: Birth
David: ... birth and women and the bridegroom and the bride and new humanity that comes out of all of it. And so it's just amazing to see where John's mind was formed [laughs] is in the waters of the Torah. [laughs] It's just amazing. So that's the well water in Genesis and a bit of Exodus there. As we move into Exodus, water continues to play this story of being both life and death. So two of the places in the Exodus story of Israel's rescue from Egypt that we're gonna look at take place at, in two bodies of water. One is the Nile, and one is the Red Sea.
Christine: Yes. The Nile is very interesting because the Nile is a river in the desert. It's-
David: Mm
Christine: ... we, you talk about Egypt as the gift of the Nile. The-
David: Right
Christine: ... Egypt as a civilization, and a powerful one at that, would not exist without the Nile. So the Nile is a gift from God and a gift of life.
David: And so in the biblical story, if things were operating the way they should, this should be a garden of life.
Christine: Yes. But the ruler of this kingdom turns it into an instrument of death.
David: Oh, this is fascinating. Okay, so j- I'm just trying to live in the story here. And so the problem with Genesis 2, [laughs] not the problem with Genesis 2, [laughs] the problem Genesis 2 highlights, is that we don't have water in, in a land, and we don't have a ruler to tend it, a man to tend it in God's image and to have dominion over it the way that you're supposed to, in a way that a gardener-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... would have dominion over a garden. Well, here in Egypt, we have the water.
Christine: And we have a man.
David: And we have a man.
Christine: But he's anti-multiplication.
David: Yeah. He's, he's, he's anti-children.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's right. He doesn't like that the Israelites are being fruitful and multiply, and he does not rule and reign his territory that God i- has given him in the way that God would intend.
Christine: Yes. He-
David: He's an anti-Adam.
Christine: Yeah. That's a very good way to see him.
David: Mm.
Christine: He turns a source of life into a source of death, and we see that most tragically in the nationwide massacre of baby boys that are cast into the Nile River to die, except for one who is given a new birth of sorts through these Nile waters-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... because he enters a new family and a new life, and he's rescued from these waters and by these waters from the real enemy in the kingdom, which is Pharaoh. And I'm obviously talking about Moses, whose name even means drawn out of water.
David: That's right.
Christine: So here's a child who's rescued from the Nile or in the Nile, and he is the one whose story unfolds with the rest of Exodus-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and how he comes and challenges this death bringer in what should be a life-bringing kingdom and brings life.
David: Yeah, and it is a repetition of the flood story, where you have waters-
Christine: Mm
David: ... that cover over life and bring death, but out of that, a righteous man, a new humanity, a leader is drawn out and protected in an ark.
Christine: That's right
David: Right?
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah. In, in an ark and saved in order to b- be very fruitful and multiply by bringing the kingdom of God out of slavery and to their new king to inhabit a new land.
Christine: Yes, and he is saved by five different women here, or, like, throughout the time. Moses-
David: Women and water
Christine: ... is always saved by a woman, too. Yeah, even his wife.
David: [laughs] Zipporah, yeah.
Christine: But, um, yeah. But the midwives that fear God-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... are pro-life and anti-pharaoh. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: Anti-death. And they counteract his wishes to bring death and bring life instead, and the same with Moses' mother, the same with Moses' sister, and the same with Pharaoh's own daughter.
David: Mm.
Christine: So there's this woman-water theme continuing, and will this water bring life or death is sort of the conflict that we see in the first-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... chapter or two.
David: And all of that comes to a huge head, [laughs] to use a water metaphor, in the Red Sea when God is bringing His people out from Egypt, out from this land of death, to cross a wilderness and take them to a new well-watered place where-
Christine: Yes
David: ... they can plant a new Eden. And to get there, they pass a body of water called the Reed Sea or the Red Sea, and it opens up to them, and dry ground appears. Sound familiar? Sound like Genesis 1?
Christine: Yes.
David: He's c- causing a separation between the waters on one side and the waters on the other side to create an inhabitable land where Adam's humans can live and flourish and walk about and find life.
Christine: Yes, and this water will act as a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous-
David: Exactly
Christine: ... as well.
David: It is life-
Christine: So we see-
David: ... for Israel in their escape from slavery.
Christine: Exactly, and it's death for those who want to unmake and destroy the world.
David: That's right.
Christine: Which is a-
David: As Pharaoh and his armies travel after Israel, God closes the waters in a new flood around them to cleanse the land, to rescue, to, to hand them over to the death they're choosing and the uncreation that they are, uh, pledging their allegiance to, and rescuing a people out of that to create new life. So water is death, and it's also life.
Christine: That's right.
David: Again.
Christine: Fascinating.
David: What do you know? Genesis 1 and 2 just keep repeating themselves. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: That's so fascinating.
Christine: And it's fun to see it unravel in this way because there are multiple themes, and what is water doing in each case sometimes is just life, sometimes is just death. But you see it acting in both ways sometimes depending on who the person is.
David: Yes.
Christine: So.
David: It, yeah, like in the flood story, it causes-
Christine: Exactly
David: ... a separation.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Which is the first place we meet water.
Christine: Yes.
David: Water is separated in the beginning-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... to create life on one side, death on the other.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That's fascinating to think about that.
Christine: So cool.
David: Okay, so that's something to keep in our brains [laughs] as we, as we slowly make our way toward John. Not in this episode, [laughs] though. So Israel has escaped Egypt through water. It was life for them. It was death for Egypt. And now they are making their way to the mount of God where they are going to become His people, and God is going to make them a new humanity to repopulate the world and order it in the way that it was meant to be. They're gonna go create a new Eden in that space. And in order to do that, He creates a new microcosm, a new mini version of the Garden of Eden in their midst, and this is called the tabernacle.
Christine: Yes, that has water in it.
David: It has water in it. Yes, it does. And so in order to get into the tabernacle, you first have to pass through the waters. [laughs]
Christine: Yes. The priests needed to wash themselves.
David: That's right.
Christine: Yes.
David: And the water basin, it is interesting that not only would you use the water to cleanse yourself to prepare to cross out of the land of death and impurity and chaos and emptiness and into a new land of Eden and life and flourishing and cleanliness, that's what they, the priest is reenacting every time they cross that water threshold.
Christine: So cool.
David: So not only are they cleaning themselves, they're actually physically walking through and past the water basins.
Christine: Hmm.
David: So they are reenacting the Red Sea moment and new creation of the parting of the waters and separating the waters every single time they cross the threshold of the tabernacle to go into the temple area. And so what God is doing here is he's reconsecrating, re-cleaning, reclaiming a new people who will be His priests to the world and take His blessing and life and flourishing out. And so He separates, again, who passes through the waters, the chosen leaders of God who are His new representatives. They pass through the waters to then go and be a blessing to the world. The priests are clean, so they can go clean.
Christine: Yes. They're like the new Adams and Eves that trickle out of the God presence space-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and go and share His life with the world.
David: That's right. So a- again, humans are water. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, and it's noteworthy that this is all in a desert as well.
David: That's right.
Christine: A desert at a mountain. So you have all these creation themes pop up again where there are ... Even in the construction of the tabernacle, two men are highlighted.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Two figureheads, kind of like Adam and Eve were two figureheads-
David: That's right
Christine: ... in the creation, and they are working together with God to build this Eden.
David: Is that Oholiab?
Christine: Bezalel and Oholiab.
David: Bezalel and Oholiab, yeah.
Christine: Yes, yes. Very cool.
David: Oholiab. [laughs] That's what I always think when I hear Oholiab, is I hear O Holy Night.
Christine: Okay.
David: [laughs] Sorry.
Christine: That's funny. I've never thought of that.
David: Well, now you will.
Christine: Thank you.
David: You're welcome for that one. That one's free. And so they're creating this space that has to be cleaned up because, as the biblical story has shown us, we are filling the Earth with evil and darkness and uncreation, what we might just call sin. We're filling the world with sin. Anti-Eden m- matter. [laughs]
Christine: Death.
David: Death, death matter. Dark matter. [laughs] Uh-
Christine: Yeah. We're making water dangerous for ourselves in some ways.
David: As we've learned from Genesis 1, where it's separated, and the flood, where we see that separation in dramatic contrast, if we align ourselves with uncreation and evil and darkness, we will come under the waters as death-Instead of being saved from the waters as the waters clean the world and we pass to life.
Christine: And there's water that's coming for these people too, in a way that is kind of in a new fall situation-
David: Mm
Christine: ... as well.
David: What do you mean?
Christine: Well, I'm thinking of the fall of the golden calf.
David: Oh, yes.
Christine: And how that's going to unpack water in a lot of these same ways.
David: That's right. Yeah. So Israel is at Mount Sinai. Moses is on the mountain receiving the law, the covenant, the commandments.
Christine: The Eden plans.
David: The Eden plans. I mean, actually, yes.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah, he sees the blueprint of the tabernacle from heaven and copies it into shadow form on Earth.
Christine: Yes. He gets a plan for life, as it were-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... but comes down, and to his horror, sees that God's chosen covenanted people have planned death instead.
David: Yeah. And so, yeah, he comes out of life Eden land, comes back down into wilderness death land, and sees them worshiping a golden calf, a gold cow.
Christine: Yep.
David: We probably don't need to unpack everything behind the golden calf-
Christine: Yes
David: ... so I'm restraining myself.
Christine: There's a lot going on, but how does Moses respond-
David: Yes
Christine: ... I guess, is-
David: Yeah, he responds by taking the cow and does he melt it down and then turn into dust? How does he get it into-
Christine: He pulverizes it.
David: He pulverizes it. [laughs]
Christine: And then-
David: What does that mean? [laughs] Just grind-
Christine: To ground it to fine dust
David: ... just grinds it down.
Christine: Yes. Somehow-
David: Wonder how he did that
Christine: ... well, he was angry enough to break two stone tablets, and that was after not eating or drinking anything for 40 days.
David: For 40 days. [laughs]
Christine: So this is a mystery beyond my comprehension. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Christine: But-
David: But he does it
Christine: ... there's a lot of symbols or a lot of meaning that is tied into every one of his actions. The breaking of the tablets shows that God's people have broken their covenant, and his pulverizing of the calf and then pouring it into water and then making the people drink it is all very heavily, heavily symbolic and meaningful, which we can unpack a little more.
David: Yeah, unpack it a little bit. Like, what, what does that make you think of?
Christine: Well, it makes me think of a later part in Numbers, which talks about the test of the unfaithful wife, or the wife suspected of, of unfaithfulness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Because there as well, if there is a woman suspected of unfaithfulness, there is a trial. In many ways it's to cool the jealous passions of a husband-
David: Right
Christine: ... so that he, instead of doing other things out of jealousy, has to go through this procedure where he has time to cool off and see if this woman actually is unfaithful or not. But the test is one of taking dust from the tabernacle, so holy dust, and then consecrated water, holy water, mixing that together, and the woman has to drink it with an oath spoken over her that if she has been unfaithful to her husband, then this water, which is just a little bit of dust and water, it's not gonna be of consequence to her, unless if she is unfaithful, then this will cause her great pain and suffering.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: If not, then it will not harm her. So there's this test of holy water and holy dust that she takes into herself that will vindicate her or find her out.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And who is Israel back in Exodus 30?
David: The unfaithful bride.
Christine: They have just committed idolatry, adultery against their God, and so Moses grinds up this cow that they have set aside to worship, puts the ashes into the water, and then forces the Israelites to drink it. And what happens? A plague breaks out, though not one that kills everybody.
David: Right, because God shows mercy as a faithful, good, compassionate, slow-to-anger husband. And though clearly the test of adultery has proven true for His people-
Christine: Yes
David: ... not only were they caught in the act, the drink the powder water proves that they were guilty because a plague breaks out-
Christine: Yes
David: ... and death starts to fill the camp. God doesn't let the story end there. [laughs]
Christine: He doesn't. He is merciful.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Even Moses is like, "Blot me out instead," and God's like, "No."
David: "I don't do that."
Christine: "No. Just-"
David: "I'll solve it a different way."
Christine: Yes.
David: "I will clean and forgive." And-
Christine: He will show His glory in the face of a man-
David: He will
Christine: ... in the very next chapter.
David: Yeah. What's interesting about this, as we, we see about ground-up idol cow dust going into water that creates death for people, we see the exact opposite thing happening the next time we have ground-up cow water. It leads to life. [laughs]
Christine: Ground-up cow water. Ground beef water.
David: Ground beef water.
Christine: Lovely. [laughs]
David: [laughs] But in Numbers 19-
Christine: Okay
David: ... this ritual is repeated, but for the exact opposite purpose. Again, you have rebellion in contact with the presence of God's Eden temple tabernacle, where the Korah and his legions rebel against Aaron, the chosen priest, and there's this big test for who is God's true leader, and there's a lot of death in the camp that breaks out.
Christine: The ground opens up and swallows people, and there's-
David: And they go... Do they go into the deep waters there?
Christine: Could be.
David: Maybe. I don't know. The question here is now the land where God is dwelling in His tabernacle is full of death pollution.
Christine: Right. And so how do we clean death?
David: That's right.
Christine: It's with water.
David: That's right. That's the flood story.
Christine: Water separates-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, water separates righteous from unrighteous.
David: That's right.
Christine: And so how do we get rid of unrighteous and salvage the righteous? Through water.
David: We have to clean it.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so God instructs Moses to kind of reverse the idol calf story and create ground beef water again, and he tells him to take a heifer-
Christine: Okay
David: ... and to sacrifice it. And then-
Christine: Where is this?
David: This is Numbers 19. And he asks him to sacrifice this heifer, and there's lots of things that happen with it, and even the people who do the sacrifice and interact with the parts of the sacrifice, they all have to go wash in water to clean themselves.
Christine: Wow.
David: But then the ashes from one who has already washed in water, the ashes are taken from the heifer, the ashes of the heifer, and sprinkled into water.And that water becomes a cleaning detergent for the land that has been polluted by death. So God creates a new atoning, covering flood that cleans His land of death pollution-
Christine: Wow
David: ... so that Eden can continue to thrive and exist with His presence, and He's covering death with life. It's fascinating that you had ground beef water in Exodus is death, and then ground beef water in Numbers 19 is life.
Christine: Well, 'cause that, the first ground beef was never alive to begin with-
David: It's so true
Christine: ... and the other one was.
David: That's right.
Christine: And this-
David: Yeah, w-
Christine: ... has Jesus all over it.
David: This is so cool. Yes. So the first ground beef water [laughs] in Exodus is derived from a ground up idol, and it has no life in it.
Christine: Exactly.
David: But as we're told multiple times, the, the life of an animal is in its blood, and it's sacrificed, ground up. That living thing that had the breath of life in it-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... is put into water. [laughs] Breath of life, water.
Christine: It went through fire first-
David: It went through fire first
Christine: ... and then it goes into water-
David: That's right
Christine: ... and becomes a source of cleansing.
David: A source of cleansing. Yeah.
Christine: Well, that's Jesus. That's-
David: Hmm. Well, go ahead-
Christine: He's-
David: ... and unpack that. Why not?
Christine: He's the ultimate sacrifice, and it's by ingesting Him and being baptized into Him, taking Him into ourselves, that we are purified and cleansed. And it's just so beautiful that those patterns are set out for us right in the Torah.
David: Yeah. Jesus joins Himself to the water-
Christine: Yes
David: ... and lets us meet Him in there to be cleansed.
Christine: Yes. He was baptized by John. We join Him in baptism, and that baptism is a death, 'cause it's, you know, it's, the cow isn't alive, the one that was. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's not alive once it's in the water, and that is because water separates righteous from unrighteous. Our death, we take our sin and drown it in the water, and we rise up to new life with Jesus.
David: That's right. And so-
Christine: Oh, that's beautiful
David: ... that's cow water. [laughs] Which is, ground beef water is, is my new favorite thing.
Christine: It's holy cow water.
David: Holy cow water. Oh, that's, that's, at least for the second one.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: I was thinking-
David: Definitely not-
Christine: ... of the second one
David: ... the first one. [laughs]
Christine: That is-
David: Okay
Christine: ... unholy water.
David: Moving on. We've talked about a lot. We've talked about the waters of separation. The, the water as the problem, and void and emptiness. It's the solution to the barren wilderness. It is life and death, and it cleans, and it saves, and we are rescued in water, by water.
Christine: We are-
David: Water is a place-
Christine: ... born again.
David: Yeah, we're born again. It's where, it's where women are and life gets born as we meet the women at the well, and life springs up from there. We've talked about the tabernacle being a place that is like the new Garden Temple, and water cleans the priests that then become water and take it out into the world to clean it. And that water we saw come out like ground beef water, and they clean up all of the, the world by spraying life water all over it. This is a picture of Eden, water gushing out of the tabernacle as God's priests go out from the altar of sacrifice with holy water and clean it.
Christine: It's crazy.
David: It's so cool.
Christine: It all stacks onto it. I, it's overwhelming, [laughs] and I find myself getting lost in it-
David: I know
Christine: ... sometimes. There's so much going on.
David: So much going on.
Christine: But yeah.
David: So to continue to try to hold all these things in your mind at once, as Israel travels with the mobile Eden through the wilderness-
Christine: They come to water
David: ... they come to water, but also-
Christine: Oh
David: ... through the wilderness. They carry the water of Eden through a wilderness. [laughs] They are enacting, at least-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... in symbol, the purpose of creation-
Christine: That God-
David: ... to spread God's water life presence-
Christine: Yes
David: ... across barren places.
Christine: And it's God and man traveling together-
David: That's right
Christine: ... to do that.
David: It's a mobile Eden.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yes.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so, but yes, they do come to water as a boundary marker.
Christine: Yes.
David: Which is how we met it i- in the beginning.
Christine: Yeah, Genesis 1.
David: That's right. It's a separation.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And there's something different that, that's over there versus what's over here.
Christine: Yes.
David: And w- the water line is the boundary marker.
Christine: Yes.
David: And the water we're talking about is the River Jordan.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And it is the boundary of the land that God promised to Abraham, and that he's bringing his people now to go inhabit, and do what? Create a new Garden of Eden. [laughs] And that is the purpose. So they come to this boundary water, and there is another separation that happens. God separates, and what- [laughs] You made a face.
Christine: I thought, I thought you were thinking of the circumcision at Gilgal, 'cause before they cross, they have to get circumcised. They have to s- cut off death-
David: That's right
Christine: ... so that they can enter through the waters of life, death, and pass from the land of desert into the land of promise.
David: I thought you already had enough you're trying to hold in your head. Now you're bringing circumcision into it.
Christine: It keeps leaking out. [laughs]
David: [laughs] The water. And so, but they do, they pass through the water. And then God makes another Red Sea-like separation, and they leave the death of the wilderness, and even the past generation that failed in the wilderness, behind them. And they are cleansed and sanctified and separated from that death into a new land of life as they pass through the water into this new Garden of Eden, this new Promised Land.
Christine: Yes. And I think I got my chronology off because the Gilgal circumcision occurs, or at least is recorded in chapter five, but they cross the Jordan in chapter three.
David: Ah, good.
Christine: So they're still linking, which-
David: They're still linking
Christine: ... circumcision and baptism definitely linked closely.
David: For sure.
Christine: But the crossing of the Jordan, the going from, yeah, the land of death into the land of life is separated by water.
David: It is. Okay. So just, we have all these in our heads, like at least we're trying to. And it's, what I want us to do now is go, okay, this is like a Torah plus Joshua [laughs] reflection on the development of the theme of water. But then throughout the Bible, these themes get-Hyperlinked and tagged and brought in to regular, quote-unquote, everyday stories. And it's easy to miss water in stories as we-
Christine: Hmm
David: ... come across them. And so in order to help us see that John isn't unique in this way of using water in story to have all these metaphors and images and meaning crash into the story, to show that, we're gonna look at one story in the Old Testament where this happens, although it happens constantly. The reason why John had water all over his gospel is because it's all over his Hebrew Bible.
Christine: Yes.
David: But the story we're gonna look at, and it might surprise some of you to hear this, we're gonna look at the story of David and Bathsheba.
Christine: 2 Samuel 11. Yeah, this is a very interesting place to go and a place that has piqued my curiosity for a lot of reasons. Mostly because I see water pop up in a way that is familiar, but in a way that I'm not expecting-
David: Hmm
Christine: ... because of how it's connected to a wife. 'Cause we see, this is the story of David and Bathsheba, and we know that Bathsheba is not married to David. She is married to Uriah. And David sees her bathing one day and decides to take her to himself and murder Uriah later after that. And so it's a horrible story of adultery, which we've already touched on-
David: And does link to water
Christine: ... with water.
David: Yep.
Christine: It does link to water. But in this case, we see David up in his palace, so he's in an elevated area, and he sees a woman bathing in water, which is very Edenic, very much like the patriarchs, 'cause we ha- are used to men finding their wives by well-watered places.
David: That's right.
Christine: And so, but we know that this woman is already married. This woman's already accounted for. The Proverbs talks about wives and water also, but that's later. But the story here is very strange, because okay, in a way, it's faithful to a biblical pattern that, oh, okay, David needs to take Bathsheba. But in many other ways, this is not right, and everyone would agree, and it's very clear that what David commits with Bathsheba is adultery. It's not him finding a maiden to marry.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And so-
David: Okay. Let me just, let me... Oh, there's a lot going on. I just want to see if I'm understanding-
Christine: Yeah, go ahead
David: ... just a few pieces. So you've got a kingly figure like Adam-
Christine: Yes
David: ... in a high place like Eden-
Christine: Yes
David: ... meeting a w- woman by water like the patriarchs-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... and taking her to be his wife.
Christine: Yes.
David: He's following the biblical pattern, but everything's broken.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's what you're saying.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay.
Christine: He's following the biblical pattern, but he's disobeying a command.
David: Fascinating.
Christine: And so what are we to do with water here?
David: Yeah.
Christine: And it, I find it fascinating that even Bathsheba's name is connected to water, because it means well of seven.
David: Well of seven.
Christine: Yes.
David: Like-
Christine: So she's a seven-fold fountain, like-
David: Oh, a seven-fold well. Like a-
Christine: Yes, or seven wells or something like-
David: Or seven wells.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay, okay, okay.
Christine: There's, there are a lot of ways, or a daughter of seven, even, is a way to t- 'Cause Batshe- It depends on how you, how you break apart her name. However, it's, I mean, that's a beautiful name and very fitting for a woman in the Bible, and it's wonderful, and David agrees. [laughs] And that ends up being the downfall and the tragedy. And in fact, the first son born to David from Bathsheba, this well of seven, dies.
David: Hmm.
Christine: And so we know that this is a sin that David commits with Bathsheba. Nathan confronts him on it. David admits it. We get Psalm 51 to show his contrition and his repentance, and there's also a son that is born to them who dies, and it's very tragic. And Uriah also dies as a result of this. So there's something very, very broken, even though it seems like by a- all other accounts, David is following a faithful patriarchal pattern. And there's even a covenant connected to him at this point, where God promises that his son will build a house. There, God promises him a dynasty. And for David to find a woman in a well-watered place right after that seems very natural. The only thing that breaks there is that Bathsheba is already married, and so there's something very broken here. There's adultery that occurs, and we saw the test for adultery earlier in Exodus and Numbers, and how that can run afoul and cause death instead. And what does David pray in Psalm 51? [laughs] "Cleanse me with hyssop and I will be clean. Wash me and I will be whiter than snow." He is asking for water to cleanse him and wash away his sin like the un-alive cow-
David: Hmm
Christine: ... at the foot of Sinai. So that was a lot all at once. What are you seeing, thinking?
David: A lot, but I don't know if any of it's helpful. My mind's just being blown. I'm just trying to follow the picture here, 'cause it, and it's heartbreaking, too.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That you see this picture, and everything's lining up in the way that you would expect-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... it to. And you're like, "Okay, David's gonna have a son that sits on his throne, who will build a house for God. Eden is coming back. Like, this is the dream." And then you have, he's in a high place. Here's a woman by the water. Oh, man, this is it. But everything's gross and broken and twisted and evil, and it's like, you're supposed to be bringing life and flourishing and goodness into this kingdom, David, but you're bringing death. And so for you, the water was death today.
Christine: Yeah. It's another fall of Adam-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... as it were. It's another transgression of Sinai. It's another, yeah, it's another fall after what was supposed to be an Edenic promise-
David: Hmm
Christine: ... a promise of fruitfulness. And just to add on to that, the fact that this is Jesus' genealogy we're talking about here.
David: Right.
Christine: Bathsheba is brought into the royal line, the holy line of Christ himself-
David: Mm
Christine: ... through very heartbreaking means, but means that are ... It just makes us think and wonder.
David: What it does for me, as we think about water, is it helps me see that it is death and life.And that God brings life out of death.
Christine: Yes.
David: And yes, for David, this was death for a season, but he repented, which is why he's still a man after God's own heart-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... because he's a king who, yes, did evil-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... but didn't stay in that evil, and repented. And in God's mercy, like he showed to his people caught in adultery at Sinai, he's merciful, and he relents, and he forgives, and he cleanses David.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And-
Christine: David didn't die as a result
David: ... water becomes life to David again.
Christine: Yes. He takes Bath-
David: It was death
Christine: Yeah.
David: And he takes Bathsheba-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... and this new well-watered garden that he's taken as his wife does birth, ultimately, the source of living water itself in Jesus.
Christine: Yes.
David: Which is mercy-
Christine: Which-
David: And if it's confusing, and it feels chaotic, and it feels wishy-washy, and it feels like, well, that seems like it's both, that's what water-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... is doing in the Bible.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It's life and death.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It, you can't hold it or control it, uh, and which is a cool meditation to think about when we think about God himself is, and I'm not equating God and water here, I'm just saying that the way God works in the world [laughs] is not containable. [laughs]
Christine: It's not, and it's scandalous, and it makes us squirm because we are angry at the unrighteousness done to God at the foot of Sinai. We are angry at what David did to Bathsheba and her whole family in this, and we are just left confused as to why are Biblical patterns here still showing themselves in a way that's like, all right, this is somehow good because I see the pattern repeated, but it's also so tragic and broken. And it's just scandalous, basically. But it's not until we see God kind of do the same thing again in unprecedented, uncontainable, unfathomable mercy that he does something just as scandalous, if not more scandalous than David. And the church fathers really lean into this whole imagery of, like, David and Bathsheba, 'cause they talk about David, even l- just picturing the scene of David looking down and even, like, the sun being behind him. He's like, he is the heavenly God king come down to take to himself an earthly wife, and that is what God does to his people, for his people, and it's scandalous.
David: Yeah, we squirm under that-
Christine: It's so squirmy
David: ... big time, yeah.
Christine: It's like, what does the God of Heaven want with daughters of Earth or with the people of... You know, what is man that you are mindful of him? But that is who God is. He's the lover of mankind. He's the husband of humanity.
David: What makes me think of is two things. One is that God only has adulterous wives to marry.
Christine: Exactly.
David: That's all. Ever, ever since Sinai-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... he only ever had an adulterous bride to take to himself.
Christine: Yes.
David: The other thing it makes me think of as we think about water is what did God choose to bring life out of? Chaos and emptiness.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And that's what he does every single day.
Christine: Every single day.
David: And, and, and with every single life.
Christine: Yes. He comes near with gentleness, not with clash and combat intent to the chaos that is just messed up. And if we have righteous anger about, you know, scenes like David and Bathsheba, it's helpful to remember that we are the adulterous ones in the equation.
David: Mm.
Christine: God is the righteous one coming in mercy that you cannot grasp, with love like an ocean that just wants to wash all the impurity away from you and cleanse and present to himself a bride without blemish or defect by cleansing her.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So it's-
David: It's beautiful-
Christine: ... profound
David: ... and chaotic to see how water is used-
Christine: Yes
David: ... in the Old Testament. As we start turning towards John, it's a long hundreds of years turn that the Bible takes, and it's hinted at here in every king, but also even in David, that the cycle of humanity handing the created world of the living over to death and chaos continues to occur, that that cycle just continues and continues and continues. And, and God sends his prophets and tells them, "If you continue to act in this way and don't repent, you're going to hand Israel itself, the Promised Land itself, Eden itself, back over into the mouth of the sea. You're going to hand life itself over to death." And he's like, "Babylon's gonna come and wipe you out. You're gonna be exiled. You're gonna be cast out. The separation of the waters is going to occur, and the waters of judgment that day are not gonna be salvation for you. They're going to be death. But in it I will clean, and I will bring a remnant out. I will put them in the ark. I will save them again." And the cycle just continues.
Christine: Yes.
David: And one of the places that we see this happening with water specifically is in the prophet Jonah.
Christine: Yes. Yes, because Babylon or even just the Gentile nations surrounding Israel are often in the prophets referred to as the sea. It's the chaotic, untamed nations that do not know God over against Israel who, to whom God has revealed himself. So there's this contrast that's reminiscent of Genesis 1 where there's the land of Israel and then the sea of nations around them.
David: Yes, and that sea is just crashing like waves-
Christine: Yes
David: ... getting closer and closer to crossing that boundary line that God put-
Christine: Yes
David: ... and sweeping them into their chaos, death, and unrighteousness.
Christine: Yes. And the Israelites are continuously digging channels for the sea to get into the, by worshiping f- the gods of the nations, by allowing the chaotic authorities that rampage across the face-
David: That's right
Christine: ... of the earth.
David: They're crossing the boundaries.
Christine: They are crossing-
David: They are letting the water in.
Christine: They are letting the water in. They are, you know, if this would be a reverse thing, but you could think of Israel also as a boat out at sea-
David: Hmm
Christine: ... a small island, and they are boring holes in the boat, and God-
David: [laughs]
Christine: ... is saying, "Don't do that. You're gonna get s-
David: The prophets are like, "The ship is sinking." [laughs]
Christine: You're gonna get swallowed up. You keep letting these foreign practices, these pagan practices and gods in," and Israel just keeps sinking deeper and deeper into idolatry until it's too late.
David: Yeah. And so Jonah, God raises up this very unique prophet who isn't called to go and warn Israel about the sinking ship, but instead is sent to AssyriaOne of the chaotic waters, and he crosses chaotic waters. He's supposed to cross chaotic waters to get to them, to Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, and to tell them to repent.
Christine: Yeah. Well, he wouldn't have had to cross any body of water at all, but he chooses to go-
David: Oh, that's right
Christine: ... and r- he chooses the-
David: He chooses chaos and death
Christine: ... he ch-
David: He could have traveled on land and life, but he chose chaos [laughs] and death. That's right.
Christine: Yes. Well, he preferred the waters of the sea over, like, to the waters of Assyria.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And was like, "I'm getting as far away from that evil as I can."
David: Yeah, and as he flees and goes into the waters, the actual literal waters [laughs] of a sea, he's swallowed by a great sea monster.
Christine: Yep.
David: And this is another picture of the evil empires that-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... were seeking to swallow Israel. They're called, like, these chaos monsters of the deep, and they are seeking to swallow Israel. But in a picture of how God has used water and arcs and things that keep people safe from water from the beginning, He's trying to show through this prophet's life how being swallowed by the waters will actually create life and a new creation.
Christine: Yeah. Jonah enters this death as where he gets swallowed by a sea monster, taken down to the roots of the mountains, down into the abyss, where he prays and cries out, and then God brings him back and spits him back out [laughs] onto land-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... causes the fish to throw him back out onto the land. And Jonah goes and brings that life-giving message to the belly of the beast [laughs], a new one.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So yeah, and that whole thing is a picture of, yeah, as you said, Israel going into exile, getting swallowed up by the Sea of Babylon because of their disobedience.
David: Yeah, and they had been told by their prophets that this swallowing was coming, that the nations were going to swallow them for their idolatry, and they w- needed to repent and trust in Yahweh. But instead, they keep trusting in idols, trying to manage it themselves, and so the water is coming for them.
Christine: Yes. If there's one hole that, in the boat that is letting water in, maybe I can drill another hole that will let the water out. That doesn't work. [laughs]
David: That doesn't work. And so God is saying, "I'm going to come and swallow you with the nations that you're trusting in," but in doing that, it's going to be a water of cleansing because God does wipe out idolatry in Israel.
Christine: It's a test of unfaithfulness.
David: It's e- exactly.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It is the test of unfaithfulness. The, the ground beef water comes-
Christine: Oh, dear
David: ... and covers [laughs] Israel, and for some it's death, but for some, the remnant-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... the faithful, they stay. They trust-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... God and He saves them and brings people back.
Christine: Yeah. God washes his bride clean of idolatry-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... in ex- in the waters of exile and brings back a remnant completely purged of it.
David: That's right.
Christine: So that's really beautiful.
David: And so it's in, it's in this season of exile, of the national threat, of knowing they're gonna be swallowed by the sea of the nations, that we get so many of the promises of water that John's going to pull on in his gospel.
Christine: That's right.
David: And so this is where it gets so fun-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... for, for, for John especially because the prophets talk about water as salvation, as life in a, a couple of different ways that just pull the Torah story of water back into the present, and, and ... 'Cause right now, water is a problem.
Christine: Yeah.
David: For e- for, for the exilic Israel, water is a problem 'cause water is the nations, and they're under the flood again.
Christine: That's right. This is a Genesis 1 problem.
David: Yes.
Christine: And the prophets are gonna bring a Genesis 2 solution.
David: Exactly. Oh, that's so cool. Yes, and so for example, if we look at Isaiah, Isaiah talks about the, the exile as a wilderness, and it's a place of lifelessness. They're in a desert, and they're in need of water. There's no vegetation. There's no life. And so he talks about a water springing up and rivers of life and water flowing through the desert to create a new Eden-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... and people stream to it, and it becomes-
Christine: Stream to it
David: ... Yeah, there you go.
Christine: [laughs]
David: And become the new humanity in the new creation to form a new Eden, to-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... fill the world with the solution of water again.
Christine: Yeah. And there is a voice crying out in the wilderness of Isaiah, in Isaiah 40, and, uh, he's calling out to prepare the way of the Lord. Water is gonna come. The deserts are gonna turn into beautiful well-watered places, and God's people will re- will return.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And they will be clean. There'll be a highway of holiness where there will be no unclean thing.
David: That's right. And so whenever you are thinking about Israel in this time, waiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled, this is why someone like John the Baptist i- has such a firm ministry to the people, and it's so attractive 'cause he's in the wilderness, he's by water, and he's saying, "The Lord is coming."
Christine: Yes, and he's bringing people to-
David: Come clean
Christine: ... get clean and to enter through the Jordan, no less, which is what God's people crossed before.
David: The boundary marker.
Christine: And it's a new, a new Israel coming to meet their God-
David: That's right-
Christine: ... who is-
David: ... and their king.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's right. So that's Isaiah, and he does a lot more with water. [laughs]
Christine: He does.
David: We can't get into everything. Ezekiel is very important for John, uh-
Christine: Yes
David: ... well, for a number of reasons, n-not, not least of which is water.
Christine: Yes.
David: Um, but Ezekiel has a vision after the temple is destroyed. He's in Babylon, and God's glory leaves the temple. The temple is destroyed, but he has a picture of a new temple being built.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And this new temple is built, and there's a lot of fun things, if you wanna go listen to our Ezekiel podcast on that, that we got to talk about.
Christine: Yes.
David: But importantly, what gushes out from this temple?
Christine: A fountain of water. It just pours and pours and pours, even to the point of bringing life to the Dead Sea.
David: It goes to another body of water-
Christine: It goes-
David: ... and creates life in a dead place.
Christine: Yes.
David: It was empty, and it gets filled with life.
Christine: It's beautiful.
David: Genesis 1 again.
Christine: Yes, and we already talked about how closely linked water and temple are because God is the source of life.God gives water to places without life, and God dwells in a temple, and that temple life is supposed to gush out and fill the whole world with that kind of life.
David: That's right. And it's that filling the world with life like water off a mountain that some of the other prophets pick up on, like Joel and Amos. We talked about Joel, I think, in the last episode, but Joel talks about water gushing forth from the mountain of God and healing the nations and, and going out and bringing this life to, to everyone. This new Eden mountain garden temple is going to be built, and it's his people that are going to be priests and water and life, and they're gonna go and take that to the nations, so much so that when Amos talks about it in Amos 5:24, he talks about it as embodied justice, that people going out and doing good in the world and bringing order and filling it with life in the places that are, uh, void and chaotic, they are like streams of water flowing to a parched land. And so this is where you get the line, "Justice will flow like a stream," that the embodied priests of God [laughs] are going and taking his well-watered garden to wilderness places all around the world.
Christine: Yeah, and it, this is in the context of the day of the Lord, where there are lots of signs talked about that are creation, light, and darkness, and it's contrasting the true worship with the false worship that is just sacrifices without the repentance.
David: That's right.
Christine: And so if we just link it back to David in his repentant Psalm says, "I can't just bring a sacrifice-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and have everything solved. I know that my true sacrifice is a broken and contrite spirit." And so the same thing is being called out in Amos, that we sacrifice his fellowship with God, and God wants fellowship with his people. He wants to live with them, but that means that cleanliness must run through the land, through their relationship. It's not just about having a meal without that fellowship-
David: That's right
Christine: ... restored.
David: He wants the stream of his living water that is meant to clean the earth to flow through us.
Christine: Yes.
David: That we become the river banks of God's justice and goodness and order-
Christine: Yes
David: ... getting to the world, that we are the channel of his healing water.
Christine: Yes.
David: We actually are. And so again, when John is gonna talk about rivers of living water flowing through you, this is what he's talking about.
Christine: Yeah. Eden coming out of you and spreading life everywhere.
David: That's right. Oh, it's so cool.
Christine: It's so beautiful.
David: It's so beautiful.
Christine: Amen.
David: And so there's way too much to even tie up here, but luckily we're gonna spend our whole next episode-
Christine: Mm
David: ... seeing how John takes all of these images and applies them to Jesus. But ultimately, we have gotten to touch a lot of things about how Jesus meets us in baptism.
Christine: Yes.
David: We've got to talk about how water spreads life and how as we join ourself to life, which is John's whole purpose for writing, we become a source of life.
Christine: Yes.
David: And we water the world and order it like a new Eden as we live in it.
Christine: Yeah, 'cause Jesus fulfills the pattern too.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Where does Jesus meet his bride?
David: Yeah. At a well.
Christine: It's in the waters of baptism.
David: [laughs]
Christine: Yes. That's where we are joined to our heavenly husband and share his life, his spirit, his father, his life-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and we, I said life twice, but why not?
David: Double life.
Christine: Double life. [laughs] Just multiplying it everywhere. And we carry his life to the world that so desperately needs it.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And so-
David: And this is where the whole story, not just for John, but the whole story of the Bible ends, which is also John.
Christine: Which John's-
David: Which John wrote. [laughs]
Christine: John wrote that.
David: Words of Revelation.
Christine: Yeah, 'cause Jesus showed it to him.
David: It's so cool, which we talked about in our introduction episode, but the story of the Bible ends with water. It says, uh, in a couple ways, and it's both-
Christine: Yeah, two ways
David: ... two ways.
Christine: 'Cause chaotic death water is gone.
David: That's right. It says there's no longer any sea, or the sea becomes glass-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... which means it's so still that it's not chaotic anymore.
Christine: It's bowing before God-
David: That's right
Christine: ... and still. Yeah.
David: The waves bow, and they calm. And so all chaos, all emptiness, all death, all evil, all sin is gone. The problem water of Genesis 1 is finally and forever dealt with-
Christine: Yeah. No more sea
David: ... at the end, in Revelation 22.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Like, there's no longer.
Christine: Yeah. But what about the life water of Genesis 2?
David: But life water, Genesis 2, comes back as well, and there's a river that flows through the new heavens and the new earth, and the tree of life is on its banks, and people can come and eat the fruit from the tree of life, and it heals all the nations. It heals-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... the whole earth.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so the purpose, like we talked about, of the water and of the people that Genesis 2 is asking for comes in the new heavens and the new earth, that people come and they eat the fruit, they share in the life of God, and they end up becoming healed to be a healing to the nations.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And God's presence, his withness in us, and his order that he brought in creation, and his co-ruling with his image-bearers all brings the healing waters of the new heavens and new earth to all creation in the end of the story. And this is what Jesus does, like John says, when he joins himself to humanity. He comes and shares his life with us so that we can be in the place where he's going and where he's, and what he's bringing, is that we can join that life and be a part of sh- spreading that life to the world.
Christine: Yeah. He becomes flesh so that he can show flesh his glory.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's amazing.
David: So that's the theme of water in the Hebrew Bible, and I know it was long, but it was still cursory. It was really fun.
Christine: It was fun, and it felt like we needed to set up all of these and talk about all these things. Also, we just wanted to talk about water.
David: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Christine: But they're really cool categories to kind of develop and have in our heads when we come to John and realize there's water in just about every story that he recounts. And so having these categories helps see those in a new light.
David: Yeah, and that's what we'll do in the next episode. So thank you all for joining us for this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast. We will see you next time as we look at water in John. [outro music]
Christine: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]