Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: I'm feeling great because we're in the Book of Colossians.
David: You should feel great. It's a great book.
Seth: Colossians is a great book.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: Or a great letter
Seth: It was... Right, it's a letter.
David: Yeah, I guess we should-
Seth: Paul-
David: ... try to use that
Seth: ... sent it on paper-
David: He did [laughs]
Seth: ... to someone. [laughs]
David: He did. It's true.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's a correspondence. Um, and it's crazy. It's, it's, it's like, it makes some really huge claims about who Jesus is. It claims basically that He's the center of the universe, and because of that, there's nothing that we have to add to our faith or our pursuit of Him other than what He's done on the cross.
Seth: Yeah, there was some people within Colossae who wanted to add to what Jesus had done, whether that was the Jewish law or some spiritual experience-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we'll talk about in a second. But the idea was, like, yeah, following Jesus is good, but it's better when you add some extra layer to it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... some extra practice, some extra thing. Then you'll be who you're truly meant to be. Then you'll experience fullness, and that's-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the word Colossians uses. And that kind of, like, idea is still, like, pretty much everywhere-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... today
David: ... I was like, that still sounds like today
Seth: Like, how do you, like, feel significant or full or realize your true self? Well, be a vegan.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Do CrossFit. Get out into nature, and then you'll feel, then you'll feel whole again, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and the message of Colossians is, no, no, no, Jesus is enough.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You can be vegan. You can go out into nature, but Jesus is enough.
David: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to explore that idea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, so when we're talking about this being a letter, uh, that mean- letters are sent in real time and places and to real people, so, like, the background of that letter is Paul is in prison in-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in Rome.
Seth: In Rome.
David: Okay.
Seth: So there... So more than likely, he sent Ephesians, Colossians, uh, and Philippians-
David: Yes
Seth: ... at about the same time-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... imprisoned in Rome. And so we al- we already talked about Ephesians earlier.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and Colossians is also written there. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I'm saying the same thing twice.
David: Yes.
Seth: But yeah, he's in Rome-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in prison, and he's writing to some of the churches he has contact with.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Except he never had contact with Colo- the Colossians church.
David: Yeah, he never went to Colossae, to whom this letter was written.
Seth: But he was imprisoned with a man named Epaphras-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who had planted the church in Colossae.
David: Or Epaphras.
Seth: Epaphras?
David: I heard someone pronounce it that way.
Seth: Who pronounced it that way?
David: [laughs] Well, yeah, I don't wanna name drop.
Seth: Is it NTRight?
David: No.
Seth: DRight always has.
David: It's-
Seth: Isaiah
David: ... Isaiah. [laughs] It, it's... I think it's how, I think it's how the Bible approach it. I think that's how Tim Mackie, I think-
Seth: Oh
David: ... that's how he pronounces it.
Seth: Epaphras?
David: Epaphras.
Seth: Epaphras.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Well-
David: Either way
Seth: ... regardless-
David: I like Epaphras-
Seth: Epaphras
David: ... 'cause I'm a little American. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] In Oklahoma, we call him-
David: In Oklahoma-
Seth: ... Epaphras [laughs]
David: ... he's Epaphras.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But yes, they're in prison together. Paul and Epaphras [laughs] are in prison together. And Epaphras and Paul were old buddies, uh, most likely from Ephesus.
Seth: Yep.
David: And, uh-
Seth: Ep- Epaphras was saved when Paul was preaching for two or three years in Ephesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then Epaphras went out and planted a church not only in Colossae but also in Laodicea and in Hierapolis.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, they've had a long-standing relationship, so much so that they're in prison together.
David: Yeah, and now you can imagine Epaphras knowing everything that's been going on in that area of Laodicea-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Colossae.
Seth: He knows the people on the ground.
David: Yeah. He's wo- he's pastorally worried about them.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so you can just picture him and Paul sitting in their house arrest prison in Rome just being like, "Man, I'm just really worried about so-and-so."
Seth: "When I, when I left, this was going on."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I wonder how they're doing. I wonder if they, they know what... Do they know how to respond? Do they... Who's teaching them right now?"
David: Yeah, and then Paul being like, "You know we write letters to churches, right? Let's write one."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: And so, uh, and, and, and a lot of people think that it was probably written around the same time as Ephesians, um-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... one, because it shares a lot of commonality with Ephesians.
Seth: Yep.
David: They apparently needed to hear some of the same things, and, uh, I heard, uh, someone say, uh, Paul didn't have the copy and paste feature, and so he just instead just kinda reworded some things, uh, that he was-
Seth: Right
David: ... already saying to Ephesians to Colossians or the other way around. We don't really know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which was written first, but-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um-
Seth: They're really, really similar letters.
David: Yes, and they're close to each other geographically.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so most likely, they could have been-
Seth: And-
David: ... carried at the same time
Seth: ... if you wanna get really nerdy, there's a- another letter mentioned, the letter, the chur- the letter to the church of Laodicea-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... at the very end of the Book of Colossians, and some scholars believe that might actually be-
David: The letter of Ephesians
Seth: ... the letter of Ephesians.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so regardless of all that-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the idea was that Colossians and Ephesians were written around the same time and were supposed to circle around those same three cities-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that Epaphras and Paul had co-labored in.
David: Yep.
Seth: Which is... I just love that detail. I just love the vision of Paul and Epaphras sitting in prison, bored-
David: Worrying about their churches
Seth: ... worrying about their churches.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And like, "Let's write them a letter."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they write the letter, and they send it out.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we're, we're reading that.
David: Which is no s- no surprise then why these letters are just, like, so full of encouragement, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they're just really, like, high, and, like, they haven't been there in a while.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So they're not super specific-
Seth: Yep
David: ... on, like, some of the details of what's e- exactly happening. You don't have the, you don't have, like, names, specific people's names dropped, like they were addressing-
Seth: Except at the very end, like-
David: Except the very end, like, uh, but you know, like, uh, in, like, 1 Corinthians, he's, like, naming people in the church-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, "Hey, stop that, you."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know? [laughs] It's a little more general.
Seth: Mark, M- Mark, cut it out.
David: Cut it out, Mark. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Uh-
David: And so, uh, so anyway, so that's kind of the history of what's happening-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... here in, uh, very broad terms.
Seth: Yeah. And then more specifically, we talked about how, like, there's a lot of ties to Ephesians. Like, when you read Ephesians, there's just, like, this cosmic scope to it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There, there's no- there aren't, like, barely any names. There's even less geographical or, like, situational details-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to clue you in. Why is Ephesians even writing? It almost sounds more like a sermon than a letter to a person experiencing a particular pain.
David: Super true, yeah.
Seth: So Colossians feels like Ephesians, but for a particular purpose.
David: It feels a little bit more pur- uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... purposeful and personal.
Seth: It's like Ephesians is, "Jesus is amazing!"
David: [laughs]
Seth: And this is like, "Do you know why that matters to you?"
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, so you're experiencing all this stuff. And so a- e- we need to talk about why Colossians was written, more than likely.
David: Yes. And so this is, um, this is some debated territory.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, not because, like, everybody thinks everybody else is wrong, you know, or because there's just so many things we can argue about. It's because we just don't have a ton of, of information.
Seth: Right. Colossians is still pretty general-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for all the... As specific- like, as a pastoral, like, as much of a pastoral needed to be addressing, it's still pretty general-
David: It is
Seth: ... in the way that it addresses.
David: Yeah. And so the internal information of the, of the letter of Colossians is pretty s- s- sparse when it comes to details. But then also the city of Colossae is still unexcavated.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's just a tell, uh, which is like a, a, a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... archaeological mound of dirt that's yet to be excavated. And so we just don't have as much information about what types of temples were there, what kind of currency was used. Like, how rich were they? Like, uh-
Seth: Wh-
David: If there was an earthquake that happened there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when did it happen exactly, and what was the aftermath like? There's all this stuff that we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... don't know about.
Seth: There is, uh... One of the thing... Uh, what I love about the fact that c- the city of Colossae-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is just a mound of dirt right now.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: It's never been un- excavated. It's like, one, one, one scholar I was reading, he said that Colossians might... uh, Colossae might be the least important city that Paul ever wrote a letter to.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: And part of the reason, historically, depending on th- where you date Colossians, is that there was a earthquake in the region around-
David: Mm
Seth: ... AD 61. Uh, and Colossae was never really rebuilt.
David: Right.
Seth: Rome never sent money back to it, which is, so it's a city dying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in a, in a sense. And it was overtaken by the more powerful city of Ephesus, Laodicea-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Hierapolis.
David: Because of a new road that was built.
Seth: Yes.
David: This is my favorite detail of the history, uh, because it reminds me of the movie Cars.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? Like-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes
David: ... you have this little town that used to be on Route 66, and people used to drive through it all the time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, oh, all the st- shops had neon, and, and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... they were thriving. That was Colossae.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the interstate was built, and it went through, uh, uh, Ephesus and these other cities, and they got bypassed.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then they just slowly died.
Seth: All that's left is this, like-
David: And they're this, like, little-
Seth: ... middle-
David: ... bygone city out in the, out in the podunks-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that no one cares about anymore.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's Colossae. [laughs]
Seth: That is Colossae, and it's proven by the fact it's never been excavated. [laughs]
David: It's like they're still getting-
Seth: Still getting-
David: ... second-class treatment
Seth: ... [laughs]
David: Poor Colossae.
Seth: So I love, like, you have one of the most beautiful letters in the New Testament-
David: Yeah. Written to-
Seth: ... addressed to one of the least-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, prominent cities.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's r- I just love, like, thinking about that. And, um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah, it's just a little sweet de-
David: That is, that is really beautiful
Seth: ... a sweet detail.
David: That's beautiful.
Seth: And also just it fills out my... Again, like, the dating is contested.
David: Yes.
Seth: But if that's true, it's like, man, you have a city that was... had an earthquake happen to it.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's still in ruins. The government that, the government and the powers are supposed to take care of it are refusing to.
David: They're bypassing it.
Seth: Or bypassing it. You have their church leader is imprisoned-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... with Paul. You just have this small group of, like, desperate Christians struggling to lean on.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then they receive this letter. Uh-
David: Yeah. And it's just, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... full of glory. [laughs]
Seth: And not... And so, so okay, they receive this letter, but what are the theories then about what-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Paul is addressing?
David: Right. We got off, I got, I think I, I got off topic. I took a, I took a bypass.
Seth: You took a bypass around Colossae.
David: Around Colossae. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, so there's, there's kind of, there's two ex- there's two big-
Seth: If you're-
David: ... big sides, I think
Seth: ... let me just say this stuff.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you're reading through Colossians, you're gonna notice kind of a similar division that you notice in Ephesians.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: The first half is gonna be about Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and about theology, and the last half is gonna be like, "How does Jesus change us?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a really pretty basic premise.
David: Yeah. Orthodoxy, what do we believe, on the first part, and then orthopraxy, how do we live, on the second part.
Seth: Yeah. And in the middle of Colossians chapter two, essentially, is Paul, uh, directly addressing a whole bunch of issues-
David: Mm
Seth: ... within the church.
David: Right.
Seth: He calls them elemental spirits. He calls it asceticism. He calls it, um, you're, uh, uh, something about c- he'd mentioned circumcision, being-
David: He does, yeah
Seth: ... the uncircumcised and circumcised. He m- he seems to be hinting at disunity-
David: Yep
Seth: ... at one point. So there's all these, like, really specific details. Oh, visions of angels-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... popped up. It was like, so it's like he's-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... addressing something p- in particular, but what exactly is he addressing?
David: Yeah. I mean, that's the million-dollar question, or the hundred-dollar question-
Seth: Just, yeah
David: ... 'cause I don't think scholars get paid a million dollars-
Seth: No
David: ... to think about this.
Seth: No.
David: So this is the hundred-dollar question.
Seth: Hundred-dollar question.
David: Uh, and so there's, there's, there's two big theories out there, uh, and then there's some middle ground between them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, uh, some people think that this is a form, that there's this form of what's called Gnosticism or, like, mysticism kind of going on.
Seth: Yeah. In the second century, there was a big movement to, like, that denigrated the body-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in order to elevate the spiritual and the mind.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so you get some evidence of that. You see thing, the phrases like, "Don't be con-" Uh, wait, where is it? The elemental spirits of the world. Like, there, that's mentioned multiple times. You have these-
David: Yes
Seth: ... spiritual authorities mentioned, uh, over and over again. Like, there is this reference to the spiritual reality that seems to be more important, and then Paul seems to be grounding it in the body, death, and blood of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: So he's responding to this idea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that-The spiritual is what's most important.
David: Yeah, and so a lot of people would point out that, um, Gnosticism, like you, you mentioned-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... already, didn't really become prominent until the second century AD, and so saying this is a form of Gnosticism is anachronistic.
Seth: Unless you date Colossians way late.
David: Which is what some people want to do, but I just don't think the evidence is there. And so a more likely scenario is, one, that this is less a form of Gnosticism and more a form of Platonism. You know, Plato-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he had this idea of dualism, that the body didn't really matter because-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it was only a shadow of the ultimate reality, which was in a different realm.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and you know, if you've ever heard of Plato's cave, that's kind of the idea there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that we are on this earth stuck in a cave, and the real world is out there, um, in the light, and it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... throws shadows on the cave that we can only interpret.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and the whole point of life then is to get out of the cave and into real reality that's not embodied in flesh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but it's, like, spiritual, and it's full of knowledge and comprehension and reality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so that could be happening here, um-
Seth: So it could be-
David: 'Cause there, it's a, it's a, a very Hellenistic Greek city.
Seth: Yeah, so it could be a Pl- a Platonistic heresy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It could be a Gnostic heresy.
David: Yep.
Seth: The other one that I think is really interesting is, like, it's a, it's a form of Jewish mysticism.
David: Yeah, this one's interesting.
Seth: So when, uh, the Qumran caves were discovered... Uh, when were they discovered? When was Qumran excavated?
David: Oh, it was-
Seth: It's pretty old
David: ... I mean, it wasn't long ago.
Seth: Qumran excavated. I mean, it was the 20th century.
David: Oh, definitely. Yeah, it wasn't that long ago.
Seth: Qumran excavations. I'm Googling it right now. Uh-
David: But this was, uh, this was right out-
Seth: 1950s.
David: Yeah, so right, right by the Dead Sea, um, just out, you know, not far outside of Jerusalem, there was this little enclave of radical, um, like, devout Jewish people who just wanted to get away. They were like... The Pharisees would look at them and be like, "Man, they're crazy," you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: "They're really intense."
Seth: Yeah, and so there's all these documents, all these books that they wrote about these spiritual visions-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that they had of the heavens, and they were talking about what must the heavens look like. If God is up there with his cohort of angels, let's imagine that. And like, if you've read Ezekiel, that throne chariot where there's wheels within wheels.
David: Yes.
Seth: One of them talks about not just one of those, but dozens of those-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as if like, maybe this is what the heavenly realm looks like.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's like... And it's just, it's really interesting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... really speculative.
David: Yep.
Seth: But when Paul talks about going on about visions and worship of angels, like, maybe he's referencing that.
David: Yep.
Seth: And there's some good evidence-
David: There is
Seth: ... to suggest that.
David: Yep. Uh, yeah, there was Jewish mysticism-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that fits a lot of this, which is a good bridge into what is I think probably the minority view-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, of the book, but it's, it's upheld by some really notable scholars, namely N.T. Wright, who we've-
Seth: Yep
David: ... already mentioned on the show. Um, and he contends that this is a, a very similar issue, uh, that Paul was addressing in the book of Galatians, that, um, that there were Jews in the city that were trying to add, uh-
Seth: Mm
David: ... requirements of the law to new Christian converts.
Seth: Yeah, and I think he, he doesn't even say they were Judaizers. He says they were just Jews.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Maybe I'm, maybe I've misread him, but either way, it's either a Judaizing influence, where it's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... "You need to be circumcised and believe in Jesus," or it's, "You must..." Like, "No, no, Christianity, Jesus was nobody. Jesus is the only one."
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Or J- Judaism is-
David: Or Judaism is the only way.
Seth: Juda- Judaism is the only way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what's fascinating about that um, way of thinking about Galat- uh, Colossians-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is that the way that Paul's talking then is when he says, "Elemental spiritual forces," he's making Judaism sound like just another pagan religion.
David: Right.
Seth: Which is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... really interesting.
David: That's Wright's argument, is that whenever Paul talks about, um, deceptive philosophies and man-made traditions, he's not talking about some Greek thing that all the Jews would point at and be like, "Yeah, that's nonsense. We don't believe in Zeus."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, he's actually ironically using that language to talk about Judaism itself. So, and he, and Wright-
Seth: Super
David: ... admits that that's a, a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a minority position, but he defends it well, and I-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think it, there's a lot of Jewish language in this book-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, that talks about Sabbaths and the New Moon festival that they celebrated, and circumcision. And like, okay, you have to take that seriously, that there is some Jewish element, uh, in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the problem that I think often gets overlooked when we only th- talk about mysticism or Gnosticism.
Seth: Yeah, and then, I mean, the really healthy approach, though-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is just to say they were facing syncretism.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah, you'll... D- d- d- just define syncretism.
Seth: Yeah, syncretism is just essentially blending together Christianity with another worldview and another religious system.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so whether that's them blending Christianity with a form of Judaism or blending Christianity with a form of pagan mysticism or with Gnosticism or with Platonism, that's what's going on.
David: Yes.
Seth: These Christians are being tempted to adjust their faith to the surrounding culture, whether it's-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jewish or pagan. It doesn't really matter. The temptation is the same-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to stray away from the fact that Jesus is enough.
David: That's right. And, and some might-
Seth: And Paul even says it.
David: Oh, he does, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, in verse, uh, chapter one, verse, uh, 23, "Continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclai- proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which Paul, be- I, Paul, became a minister."
David: Don't shift from the gospel.
Seth: Don't shift from the gospel. Like, you have a lot of other options available to you. Judaism.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Jewish mysticism.
David: Yep.
Seth: Paganism. Gnosticism.
David: Remain steadfast.
Seth: Stay steady. Don't waver. Jesus is enough for you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You don't need these other traditions.
David: That's right.
Seth: Jesus is enough.
David: Yeah, and so I think, um, w- I think what, what we can land the plane really well, since we can't really get behind the culture and know exactly the heresy that was going on, what we do know is some of the things that Paul said.To like address them, like, "Don't do these things." Right?
Seth: Yes.
David: So some of them was like apparently some people in Colossae were, were practicing forms of like asceticism or mistreatment of the body where they would like they would like go and live in a cave for a year or something [laughs] which is-
Seth: Which is exactly what the people at Qumran did
David: ... is exactly what people at Qumran did. Or they would hurt, they would like hurt themselves.
Seth: Or they would fast for so long that they would get, they would get into some type of meditative trance state-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and have a vision.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, they would scrape their skin with pottery or, you know, like if they, if they thought a wrong thought, they'd hit their backs with a, with a whip. You know, like these are the like some of the things that he's saying. Like that, and he, and he, and he says it in chapter two, he's like, "That might have a form of wisdom to it." You might think that that looks like, man, these people are really devout. They're really committed. They, they really believe that what they're doing is right.
Seth: Here it is. They have indeed an appearance of wisdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body. But they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
David: Right. They're of no value. And like the indulgence of the flesh, I think he's trying to get at this tradition that's going on here in Colossae because the whole idea of Platonism and of Jewish mysticism is like starve the flesh, don't indulge the flesh, and then the spirit will come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like the spiritual revelation, the mystical moment will come if you don't indulge the flesh. And he's like, "Yeah, but whipping your- yourself and starving yourself is not going to stop you from indulging the flesh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because the problem is your heart."
Seth: Yep.
David: Yeah, there's a deeper sin problem going on.
Seth: Twice in Colossians, he points out that his goal in writing is to present the people mature in Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: In chapter two, ah, verse six, "Therefore, as you have received Christ Jesus, Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith just as you were taught." And then chapter three, verse one, "If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things there above where Christ is." And so what is he doing? In both of these ways in which he's talking about maturity of these people, he's grounding it not in a particular religious belief-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or a particular spiritual experience. He's grounding it in Christ alone, in Jesus alone. How do you stop like indul- indulging the flesh? Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: How do you have a spiritual experience? Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: How do you move forward in your Christian walk? Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus is enough.
David: Right. Yeah, he's saying that like you can emaciate your flesh, but it won't do anything. Jesus' flesh was already emaciated.
Seth: Yes.
David: You can deprive yourself, but Jesus was already deprived for you. You can try to crucify your flesh, but Jesus' flesh was already crucified.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What you're trying to do in your own work is already done and finished in Christ. There's nothing more to earn.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's over. Yeah.
Seth: And so we should probably just name then, like this is a really great book for us.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's like we're [laughs] like we're not immune from syncretism.
David: No.
Seth: We don't have pagan philosophies, but we do have political philosophies.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We have, um-
David: Yeah, secular mo- post-modern philosophies
Seth: ... yes, we have wrong views of the body.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We have wrong views of nature. We have wrong views of our identity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what we wanna do is we wanna say there is something that we must have in addition, or like we must have in addition to Christ-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or w- apart from Christ in order to find wholeness, satisfaction-
David: Right
Seth: ... and meaning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I need to get out into nature to find out who I truly am. I just need to act on my sexual desires, and then I'll be happy.
David: Right.
Seth: I just need to have this spiritual experience with God, and then I'll know I'm okay.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And like we all try to find that sense of fullness, satisfaction, significance through pursuing particular courses of action.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Asceticism for the body. I'm gonna discipline my body and be a vegan and eat paleo and do- go to CrossFit five times a week so I can feel full and feel significant. Or I'm gonna go pursue and have as much sex as I want-
David: Right
Seth: ... or I'm gonna go and do this. And Paul-
David: I'm gonna, I'm gonna eat and drink to the fullest.
Seth: Man, and Paul's like, "Man, they seem, they have the appearance of wisdom."
David: Yep.
Seth: All those things have the appearance of wisdom. It makes sense when you have a lot of pleasure, you're gonna be fulfilled. That makes a certain kind of sense.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But actually has no value, Paul says, in doing what you want it to do.
David: Yep, and then we do the same thing in the church.
Seth: Yep.
David: Right?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: We do the exact same thing in the church. Uh, and some of this that you've just said happens in the church where it's like we believe in Jesus, but like that doesn't really matter unless we also believe in some of these other socia- social i- uh, ideologies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: It's like believe in Jesus and vote Republican.
David: Yes.
Seth: You know? [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Or be-
David: Believe in Jesus and vote Democrat.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or be with Jesus. Uh, Jesus is enough, yes, but also you must believe in the spiritual gifts.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Oh, be with Jesus, but you also can't believe that thing over there.
David: That's right.
Seth: Or you can't watch R-rated movies, or you can't swear, and it's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... well, I get what you're saying here. [laughs]
David: Yes. Yeah.
Seth: But like really? If I... Is my whole faith invalidated if I-
David: If I do this one wrong thing
Seth: ... if I drink?
David: Right.
Seth: Like is, is that what's going on?
David: Yep.
Seth: And I think Paul's saying, "No, guys, those things are important."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But what's ultimately, what the center of reality is is not the things that we do with our body or don't do with our body, it's Jesus Christ himself. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so can I read what is probably the most beautiful section of this letter, let alone maybe the entire Bible? [laughs]
Seth: I mean, I don't know, can you? [laughs]
David: I can. So Colossians 1:15 and on. "Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on heaven or on earth, making peace by the blood of his cross."
Seth: It's pretty good.
David: Yeah, it's pretty good.
Seth: It's pretty good.
David: There's so much in there. It's so packed full.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if you could like... How would you summarize that in one s- in one sentence?
Seth: Jesus is the center of reality.
David: Jesus is the center of reality.
Seth: What-
David: What, what does that replace? Like, what, when you mean center, what's- what, like, what's my default center of reality?
Seth: Me.
David: Okay.
Seth: Well, it's like nor-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... it's like, what's like, what's the most determinative fact-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about my goodness, health, wellness, future, me and my actions?
David: Right.
Seth: Or you could even say, uh... I mean, or even more m- fundamentally, it's like, well, matter, like atoms-
David: Oh, sure
Seth: ... molecules, is the center of reality. The scientific forces are the center of reality.
David: I understand. Yep.
Seth: Like, we have, like, a pretty, like, scientific cause and effect way we think about what is... What's holding everything together?
David: Yes. Yeah.
Seth: It's, if it's not me-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it's science.
David: Yep.
Seth: And those are the ways we think. And, and the ancient mind wasn't far off of that.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, either I fulfill myself by my own preferences, or some philosophy or some worldview-
David: Yep
Seth: ... holds the world together. And Paul kind of opens up and says, "Okay, I know you believe that."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "But Christ is the center of reality."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then he just unpacks the ways in which ch- Christ is uniquely the center of reality. So he's the image of the invisible God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's the exact impression of God, the exact representation of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A scientific method can't be that. You are not that.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Like, we are the image, we are made in the image of God.
David: Right. And to, and to an older... Like, to a, to a more ancient mind-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God is supreme over re- of creation, reality.
Seth: Yes.
David: And to say that Jesus is the image of that which is over and preeminent in reality is to say that Jesus is the center of that reality.
Seth: Yes. If God above can reside on Earth, God himself has put himself in the center of his actions.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, even in the ancient mythologies, where were all the, where was all the gods' attention directed?
David: At their temple?
Seth: At, towards the Earth.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Like, they're having sex with humans-
David: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... and they're doing stuff, and they're smiting humans over there-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they're building a city over there, and they give Achilles the power of super speed and, like, whatever else.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the whole world is focused around humans.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what does Jesus do? What does God do?
David: Mm.
Seth: He becomes the center of both the heavens and the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, he's the center of the action for everything. He's the center of reality.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, he's the firstborn of all creation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's supreme. Firstborn can mean, like, he was just the first one, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... chronologically. But-
David: But in the, in, i- in the, in the, in the ancient world, firstborn was a title-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not necessarily a description.
Seth: Yes.
David: It, it's both.
Seth: It is.
David: But to say that he was first born of all creation means that he is the ruler.
Seth: He's the supreme ruler.
David: He's numero, numero uno.
Seth: Whenever David is anointed as king, God says, "I have made you my firstborn."
David: Right.
Seth: And it's still, like, is he the first person born?
David: Yeah. He's like, "Today, I have begotten you."
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: No, no, no, no, no.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's now s- he, today, David was made supreme-
David: Yes
Seth: ... over all others.
David: That's right.
Seth: So he... This, Jesus is the center of reality.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is supreme over all others. And proof positive of this, it's because Jesus created everything.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: "For by him and through him, everything on Earth, visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him."
David: Now, see, that's... So two things that are crazy there.
Seth: [laughs]
David: One, I think it's, uh, uh, it's easy for people, especially for, like, Westerners, to be like, "God created the Earth."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then whenever you say, "Jesus created the Earth," people get a little shaky.
Seth: It's kinda crazy. If you go to our Genesis video-
David: It's, that's exactly what I was gonna talk about
Seth: ... look in the comment, the comment section, people are like, "Wait, wait, wait." 'Cause we say, "In the beginning, Jesus created the heavens and the Earth." We're referring to Colossians 1. We're referring to John 1.
David: And John 1, yeah.
Seth: But people get weird about it.
David: They are. They're like, "No, it says God." I'm like, "Do you not believe Jesus is God?" [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: And so, yeah, um, Jesus created all things. Uh, they were made through him. Um, and then, but I think what's even crazier, whenever you talk about what the s- what is the center of reality, um, depending on your worldview, um, and this could get a little in the weeds, so I'll try not to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, um, you could understand the center of your reality based on where are you headed and where's the world headed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and so, like, someone who thinks that, you know, the world is just going to burn up pretty soon as the Earth get, or, you know, as the, as the sun gets-
Seth: The heat death of the universe. Yeah.
David: Yes, yeah, the heat death of the universe. You're gonna have a very different center of your universe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because of where everything's headed.
Seth: Or if you believe that the, you're trapped in a, a cycle of history that history has no end.
David: Oh, more of an, like an Eastern mind.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like you're gonna live very differently.
David: That's right. But when... W- what [laughs] what's being said here is that all things were made for Jesus. That-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the entirety of history, trees and Pluto and toaster ovens, like [laughs]-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: ... everything was made to direct toward him.
Seth: Yes.
David: And w- it, that is, I think, one of the most audacious claims here, other than maybe that Jesus is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the image of the invisible God. [laughs]
Seth: Well, it's like, yeah. It's like we all have a vision of progress.
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, as time goes on, things will get better.
David: Mm.
Seth: We, we believe that.
David: Right.
Seth: And whether we're, wherever we are, like, as Westerners, we generally believe as time goes on, as technology advances-
David: It's up and to the right
Seth: ... it's up and to the right, generally.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, take out World War II, but generally-
David: [laughs] A little dip
Seth: ... we're, we're, we're f- that's the direction of reality.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that vision at the end is whatever we want it to be.
David: Yeah, whatever we create it to be.
Seth: Whatever we create it to be or whether, whatever our political preferences-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or ideological preferences, that's what it's created to be.
David: Right.
Seth: What Colossians is saying is that that, that, that is happening-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but Jesus is at the end of it.
David: Right.
Seth: Not our systems, not our structures, not our political philosophies or ideologies. At the end of history, everything is up and to the right towards him.
David: That's right.
Seth: Which is...
David: God made the world to terminate in Jesus.
Seth: Yes. What?History ends in Jesus.
David: Yes. And it begins. He created all things. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, yeah. So it's like-
David: It begins and ends with Jesus.
Seth: So he's the, he's the physical representation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he's the visible representation of the invisible God.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He is the firstborn of all second-borns. In him, all things were created in the heavens and on the earth. Do you get all these opposites that are happening here?
David: Yes.
Seth: Visible and invisible, political thrones and demonic thrones.
David: Mm.
Seth: Everything was created in him for the purpose of finding its fulfillment in him at the end of history.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's what's happening here.
David: Every single thing in the world is about Jesus.
Seth: Christ is the center of reality.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's what he's saying.
David: Yes.
Seth: Next verse. [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's just, that's insane. I just like, that needs to land. That's just a, a... and I just need a moment. Okay, I'm good.
Seth: [laughs] I don't know how to internalize that more.
David: I don't either, other than I think a, a massive claim like that just takes time to erode the res- like, the, the ways we've centered our worldviews and our realities on other things.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It just... And I've, I've experienced that in my life. I'm sure you have too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That bit by bit, things that I thought were centered around me, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or centered around my own ideologies or where I thought I wanted to go or the, where the world was going-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... get eroded and replaced with Jesus. And that has not happened totali- in totality yet.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But it's just, it's, it's too big of an idea to just all become true at once, unless God just forces it on you, which he can, you know. But-
Seth: Right. Yeah, I think too, it's like, it's probably just to help lay name. You know, know, in every sphere of your life, not just like the big, the big ones-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you believe that you're headed to, you're headed somewhere.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're headed somewhere, whether that's an endless cycle of repetitions, you're headed towards a vision of utopia, whether a certain type of leader or political power is in office.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, you're headed towards there.
David: Yep.
Seth: And one day that will be replaced with Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: So what that does in like, even just like, even like my career, even in my family, like, I have a vision what I want my kids to look like.
David: Right.
Seth: And one day that will be replaced with Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the extent to which I'm upset when my vision of the future does not come true is actually the extent to which I don't believe Jesus is enough.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: That's what he's saying.
David: That's right. You're trying to, i- yeah. I- insofar as y- your vision of reality and what you're aiming at doesn't sync up with it ending in Jesus, you are not remaining steadfast.
Seth: You're gonna be disappointed-
David: Yep
Seth: ... frustrated, angry, divided among others as you double down on what you want versus what they want.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: Yeah, that's interesting.
Seth: So as a diagnosis then, I was like-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... so how do I engage with that more?
David: Oh, sure, yeah.
Seth: It's like, well, I don't know if I can engage with the cosmic Christ-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but I can engage with the ways in which I'm disappointed that my vision of the future is not coming about.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: And in those moments where I'm disappointed with where my life not working out the way that I hoped it would, that's where Jesus Christ can meet me.
David: Yeah. You can center-
Seth: Center my reality
David: ... hope in Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Re-center your reality a- around him.
Seth: Yes.
David: And you won't be disappointed. Okay, uh, then it talks about how, um, he, well, he holds, he's before all things and holds all things together.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which-
Seth: So before time
David: ... he's not Adam. He's bigger than atoms. You know-
Seth: Bigger than atoms
David: ... you, you, you talked about like molecules and atoms-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... like holding things together. No, it's Christ that holds all things together.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, what was, what was before the beginning? Jesus.
Seth: So before time and before the molecular forces was-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: And also, fun fact, that hold together could be like a, an aside to the, the earthquake that Colossians-
David: Oh, because everything was split apart
Seth: ... everything was split apart.
David: Oh.
Seth: So like in Christ, he's holding the tectonic plates of the world together.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: And it says that he is the head of the body, the church.
Seth: Yes. So he'll, Paul will develop this theme throughout-
David: Oh, that's true
Seth: ... throughout this book, and he does a lot more in, um, um, um, um, um, um, Ephesians.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, but the idea is like Jesus is the center of our church, uh, the global body of Christ. All believers are actually connected in one spiritual body-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with Jesus as the head, as the, the, the, the top one.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And especially if you're like jockeying for spiritual position through different aesthetic prac- practices, you know, or anything like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, to be like, "Okay, so what's the highest up I can go in this church thing?" And it's like, you can't. You're under the head of, of Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's preeminent in all things.
Seth: Yes.
David: So even this new spiritual family where you're seated at the right hand of God, and like you've been given all this authority, you're still under Christ.
Seth: Right.
David: He's still preeminent.
Seth: And then it also undermines or... It's like, okay, so I want a real spiritual experience.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, what more do you want? The one who created the world, thrones invisible and visible-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the one who holds atoms and the tectonic plates of the Earth together and who sits as head of the church building you're sitting in right now, what more do you want from-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... your spirituality? [laughs]
David: I, I thought what you were gonna say was, uh, that it was a way to take the cosmic power of Christ-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and land it in the church.
Seth: Oh, yes.
David: Where it's like, all this is happening, thrones and powers and rulers and authority, and it's that same preeminent Christ who dwells in the church and who rules over it and who you are in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because you're a part of the church. Like, that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you're in that cosmic Christ.
Seth: Yeah. You don't need to go to Judaism. You don't need to go to pagan religious practice. You don't know to g- need to go to Gnosticism. There is a whole universe of spiritual, of God-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... for you to experience, and what's the next thing you've read in verse 19? In him, all the fullness of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... was pleased to dwell.
David: No, there's more in the cave for me.
Seth: No, there's not. [laughs]
David: But, but there's more in this other philosophy, Seth.
Seth: Paul says no.
David: [laughs] The full... I, but I want, I want more of God. Where do I go?
Seth: Jesus. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's, that's what Paul's saying, David.
David: I love that. That's so good.
Seth: Uh, we did skip over one. He is the beginning, the first-
David: And firstborn of the dead
Seth: ... which is awesome.
David: Which-
Seth: Great
David: ... and I title-
Seth: Does he mean firstborn in a different way here than he did previously? Is it like he's preeminent above the dead, he's supreme of the dead?
David: Oh.
Seth: Or does it mean he was just-Chronologically, he was the first one to rise from the dead.
David: I think both.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, we're told that God gave Christ, after he rose from the dead, um, the right to judge both the living and the dead, so he is Lord of the dead. It's not Hades.
Seth: Right. So he's-
David: [laughs]
Seth: So and the, the point is, like, Go- Jesus is Lord over all life-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and over, Lord over all death.
David: Yes, but he also is the firstborn from the womb of the grave.
Seth: Yes.
David: In his resurrection, he actually was born to glorious resurrected life the first time, and now all of us, when he returns, will be born again. And this firstfruit, this firstborn kinda pulls on the firstfruit language. You know?
Seth: Yep.
David: Like when you have a firstborn child, it kind of shows that, oh, me and my wife are fertile. We can have another child.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In the same way, the firstfruits of the harvest would be like, "Oh, my f- my crops are yielding this year."
Seth: Mm.
David: And so there's the first little sprouts.
Seth: Right.
David: I'm sure the rest of the crop will come in. In the same way, Jesus being the firstborn from the dead proves that we too will experience a resurrection.
Seth: So Jesus holds the universe together. He holds time together, invisible and visible powers together. He holds life and death together.
David: [laughs]
Seth: In him, the fullness of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... was pleased to dwell.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And through him, to reconcile to himself all things, whether on Earth or in Heaven-
David: Yes
Seth: ... making peace by the blood of his cross.
David: And that is a huge statement because that, that statement is the climax, the, the resolution of the entire Biblical drama that started in Genesis 1 to 3 because in Genesis 1, Heaven and Earth were together.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: God walked in the garden with man.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They talked. They were buddies. It was a garden temple. Adam and Eve were chilling with God. That was the dream, and then after chapter 3, we were severed from God's presence, and Heaven and Earth were, throughout, throughout the rest of Genesis, get more and more separated.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then now we're just separated from God, and we're cut off-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from him, but in Christ, Heaven came to Earth, and now our everything, Heaven and Earth, that which is severed is now joined together in him.
Seth: Yes.
David: So there is no separation between Heaven and Earth, which, like, a Platonist-
Seth: Right
David: ... would really want.
Seth: Yes.
David: And he's like, "No, you can't have a lower grade bodily experience and a higher grade spiritual experience because the fullness of God dwelt in a human named Jesus, and he holds Heaven and Earth together."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And when we were separate, when our, Heaven and Earth were separated, humanity and God were separated from one another.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And thereby, humans and humans were separated from one another.
David: Yes.
Seth: And humans and nature were separated from one another. So what happens in the Fall? Man's relationship with the land is broken.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What happens to woman at the Fall? Her relationship with her own body is broken.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What happens to both in the Fall? Their relationship with God is broken.
David: And the relationship between husband and wife is broken.
Seth: Which, uh, th- husband and wife is bro- broken. He's like, in Christ, all the conflict and rupturing that happens is being brought back together in him.
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is why later on in the Book of Colossians, what's he gonna mention? He's gonna mention relationship between husband and wife. He's gonna rela- mention relationship with the created order, and he, what does he m- mention in verse 21? "We were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, but he has reconciled us in his death to present h- us holy and blameless and above reproach before him."
David: Okay, that's helpful. Reading that's helpful because I was about to ask you, like, okay, I read all of that, and then the end of verse 20, w- how does making peace by the blood of his cross accomplish this joining of Heaven and Earth in all things in Christ and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I think 21 to 22 answers it, where it's like, oh, well, we were separated from God, but we've been joined through his death, uh, into God, uh, by faith in him because we are now holy and blameless by his blood, the, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... atone- or the atonement price-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... has been paid so that now we can be one with this-
Seth: God
David: ... this God.
Seth: And our whole wor- the whole, our relationship with the entire world can change again.
David: Right.
Seth: What's the point? Jesus is the center of reality and the center of a new reality that he will create through his people who are joined to him by his death. [gentle music]
David: All right, so my question now is, we've talked about, um, the historical background, what's going on, the heresies, widespread and unknowable as they may be. We've talked about, uh, Paul's main thesis that Christ is the center of everything, and we just spent plenty of time meditating on that, which was really fun. So how does, uh, i- if the main issue in Coloss- in Colossae is that they don't believe that Christ is enough-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... how does Jesus being the center of reality-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and him and the center of reality dying on a cross-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and rising from the dead, how does that mean that he is enough?
Seth: Well, first, Paul says in Colossians 1:27 is that that Christ who is in the center of reality is in us. So verse 27: "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the fullness of God now dwells in us, and that gives us hope of glory. I think that goes back to what we were talking about. What's the end of history? We have a hope for the end of history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... based on the fact that Christ is in us.
David: So this is talking about there's this, at the bottom, at the, uh, underneath mysticism, Gnosticism, whatever you wanna call it, is this idea that there is a fullness outside of us that we need to go get.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I need to do something, whether that is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... follow Jewish laws or go practice asceticism in a cave or get into nature or hurt myself or-
Seth: Whatever
David: ... you know, uh, follow a church's laws down to the T or whatever it is, that will help me get the fullness. And what you're saying is no, the fullness... Remember that Christ we just meditated on for a long time?
Seth: Mm.
David: The fullness of him has come to dwell in you.
Seth: Yes.
David: Period.Period.
Seth: That's it.
David: That's it.
Seth: Okay. And like, and he ta- he kinda does that again in chapter two, verses eight to nine. He says, "See that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him," in Christ, "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him."
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: So s- I mean [laughs] dang.
David: That's the... Yes.
Seth: So actually, it seems like the central thesis of Colossians is Christ in you-
David: I think that's-
Seth: ... is enough.
David: I think that's really... Yes.
Seth: That's good.
David: Christ is reality.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Christ is in you.
Seth: Reality has come to dwell in you fully.
David: Yes.
Seth: The fullness of God that you wanna get in any other way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... has come to dwell in you personally.
David: Yes. I think, like, people talk about, like, being made new creations-
Seth: Yes
David: ... or just, like, being new humans or new humanity.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, fundamentally, this is what it's talking about. We are fundamentally different in the way in which we engage the world because Christ is in us. We're, we don't act the same way we did previously. We don't follow the same philosophies we did previously. We don't pursue spiritual fullness like we did previously because we don't need to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're new things.
Seth: Yes.
David: Christ is in us.
Seth: What does it mean to say that Christ is in us?
David: You know, like, it's just such a-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... it's such a, it's, it's such a Christianese idea to be like, "I've got Jesus in my heart," you know? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yep
David: ... what does that mean? It's such a, like... A- and I, I, I have categories for it, like, okay, I'm indwelt by the Spirit of God. I'm His temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Is that... And, like-
Seth: That's part of it. He talks about, Paul talks about temple often enough in Colossians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He talks about how we're being built up into that temple. I mean, Paul ties it... So remember, who's Paul writing to? Oh, wait, what do you mean? Paul-
David: I ju- I just pointed at something. I think we just stopped reading too soon for, for answer-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... verse 11, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he says, "In Jesus, who..." This is right after I just read that you've been filled in Him. "In Jesus, you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands." Wait, how that's, how, how's that possible, Paul? Circumcision's done by hand. Don't you know that? Did-
Seth: Right.
David: You know, and he's not talking about some circumcision machine. [laughs]
Seth: I mean, an automatic circumcision machine.
David: An automatic circumcision machine. [laughs] He's talking about-
Seth: If only Israel had that, all their problems would've been solved. [laughs]
David: It would've been very expeditious. Uh, no, he's saying, "Here's what's happened. Here's what it means that Christ has lived in you. He has put off the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ, and it's been buried with, with, with Jesus in the grave through faith and been raised up, and now you've been raised from the dead."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So there's this whole process you're trying to go through where you're trying to kill your flesh and-
Seth: Circumcise your bits.
David: Yeah. [laughs] Change, change who you are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You, we all wanna be a new person. I wanna be somebody else. I wanna self-actualize. I wanna be my true self. And he's like, "Th- that, that, that which you longed for has happened, but it hasn't happened with hands. It's happened by faith in Christ."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "He has-"
Seth: Right
David: ..."effectually killed this old thing that you're trying to get rid of-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ..."already, and now He's building His own flesh, His own life-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ..."in you."
Seth: Maybe let me thi- uh, rewind a little bit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why are aesthetic practices-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, like mutilating your body, really harsh religious rules-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so attractive to people? Why are spiritual experiences so, like, desirable for most people to pursue as a way to feel full?
David: Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, two things came right to mind-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when you said it. One was, um, they are quickly actionable.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I have full control, and I can do them myself really quickly. I think, two, they, um, they visibly show me that something has changed, right? Like, man, how do I know that, uh, I am right with Jesus? I, I, I don't do that thing I used to do anymore-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I've cut it off, right? And it's like, now, we don't wanna, like, demonize repentance or anything here. That's not what we're trying to do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But those were the, my two things is, like, it's attractive 'cause it's like I can do it, and I can see the evidence.
Seth: I als-
David: What do you think?
Seth: I w- I was just also thinking about how for as much of as all these philosophies, like, separate the worlds-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like heaven and he- uh, heaven and Earth, body-
David: Spirit
Seth: ... and soul.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, they're all functionally attempts for unity.
David: Oh, right. [laughs]
Seth: It's like we, we wanna feel whole.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We wanna feel like our spiritual life and our bodily life have some sort of coherence to them.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, whether that's in just our spiritual experience or even, like, our experience of our gender. It's like we want a sense of, like, wholeness to us that feels perpetually elusive.
David: Right.
Seth: So what's the problem? Well, the universe must be separated into two categories, and we have to somehow bridge the gap by either denying our body and bringing it up into our mental reality or denying our mind and f- just doing the right religious stuff.
David: Right.
Seth: And what Paul is saying is like, "No, no, unity, wholeness, fullness is found in Christ. You don't need to cut off a part of yourself. Christ was cut off for you."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why? So that in Him all things would be brought together, and you could experience the fullness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of life and death, history bringing brought to its full completion. Like, do you feel disrupted, fractured? Do you feel like your body and your soul are at enemies with one another or your mind and your actions are at enemies with one another? Man, you're trying to kill yourself trying to fix that problem. Christ has already been killed for you.
David: Mm.
Seth: You don't need to do that anymore.
David: Yeah. Yeah, or like, uh, do, do you feel like you aren't right with God yet because you ha- you know how-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know how bad you are, and you have not been punished enough-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for how bad you are. Christ has always been, already been punished for you fully.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: You don't need to punish yourself anymore
David: ... so I, I think what we're getting at, we could, we could circle this idea and give a thousand use cases.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's the whole point-
Seth: Right
David: ... is that wherever you are, whatever your problem is, the answer is not, "No, I've done the Jesus thing, and I've gotta figure out what else I need to add to feel okay, to feel whole-"
Seth: Yes
David: ... to feel complete and satisfied." The answer is no, you need to double down on Christ, [laughs] that you have not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yet understood, meditated on, accepted the fact, just, uh, just accepted the fact in faith-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that you are wholeIn Jesus, and that the fullness of God is in you and with you and for you and is bringing you to Him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like it's done in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's absolutely done in Jesus.
Seth: And there's a way to do that that's really, um, ham-fisted-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... really clumsy. It's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Well, Jesus is enough."
David: Right.
Seth: "Just believe that."
David: It's like, "Oh, okay, thanks."
Seth: That solves none of my problems.
David: No.
Seth: And what I think Paul is trying to do here is like he's trying to get underneath the skin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of these religious practices, these pagan religious impulses-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and say like, "What are you after here? You're after fullness? Like you're after completeness, you're after wholeness? Like have you noticed how that's not working out for you?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In Christ it does. Why? Because it's grounded in Him as the center of reality, as the creator of one. He's trying to give this overarching narrative of why in Christ all things are brought together.
David: Yep. You want the fullness of God? Jesus is the fullness of God.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. Um, and it, it's also again and again and again in Colossians, Paul grounds his claims, and I think this is really important so I do wanna camp out here for a second, uh, in the cross of Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, specifically I'm thinking about, um-
Seth: Verse 14?
David: ... verses 13 to 15, yep, of chapter two. Uh, you were dead. [laughs] You were dead in sin, your trespasses, the uncircumcision of your flesh, but God has made you alive with Jesus because He's forgiven all of your sins. How? By canceling the record of debt that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... stood against us with its legal demands. We ha- we'd sinned, there was a record of debt, w- why do we feel so incomplete all the time? It's 'cause we know that we've messed up and that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we've, we've harmed each other, we've, we've offended God if we think He exists, we've harmed nature, we've harmed ourselves. Something's incongruent with our reality.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But Jesus, the center of reality, has said, "No, it's canceled." How? Because He, He has, um, He's nailed that record of debt on the cross.
Seth: The Go- the God who holds all the universe together-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... died. Like the center of reality-
David: Yes
Seth: ... died so that your reality could be fixed.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like that's what-
David: To bring life to your reality
Seth: ... to bring life to your reality.
David: Yes.
Seth: By his cross.
David: Right. And it's like if you... I, I know what we're talking about, and I feel it too, can feel really ethereal, like out there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, like, "Oh, okay, it's like pie in the sky. Jesus is the center of reality, and He fills me. Okay." And it's like Paul subverts that and gets really boots on the ground.
Seth: Right.
David: And he's like, "You know those execution pieces of wood that the Roman government uses to kill criminals?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "The center of reality had like spikes nailed into Him."
Seth: By the blood of His cross. Like-
David: In flesh and blood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: These are earth language, that I want you to know this is real, it happened. How can, how can any of this actually relate to you? It's because it actually happened. And like your guilt has actually been nailed to the cross, there actually is forgiven, there forgiveness for you, there actually is wholeness for you-
Seth: There ho- yes
David: ... in the cross.
Seth: Okay, so I've got a legitimate question.
David: All right, I'm ready.
Seth: That, something that we've actually kinda skipped over-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... up until this point, and we need to f- answer it before we can answer the next verse which says, "Therefore."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So we gotta figure out what's happened beforehand. Um, Pa- uh, in Colossians 1-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Jesus is over all invisible-
David: I knew you were gonna go there [laughs]
Seth: ... powers. And then in verse, uh, nine it says Jesus is the fullness of, uh, God who dwells bodily, who is the head of all rulers and authority.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the very last verse, 15, "He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in Him."
David: Yes.
Seth: So like, okay, I get the wholeness, I get the desire for, for like congruence, I get like wanting to find significance and meaning and feeling di- fractured. I don't necessarily know why Paul is talking about rulers and authorities-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in this context.
David: So, so far the way we've been narrativizing this, uh, maybe has been a little unhelpful. I think we've been trying to be a little like relevant and postmodern, and we've made-
Seth: We're so relevant.
David: We [laughs] we've made... Well, it's because we've made self the enemy, our own conscience is our enemy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Our own lived experience has been our enemy. Don't you feel incomplete?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But there's an enemy, there's other enemies [laughs] outside of ourselves that are causing this. And in order to give full share to both sides of how people think about Colossians, I think both are really valid. One, the rulers and authority, the invisible powers are the spiritual forces of evil that actually exist, that are invisible to us, just like God is invisible but Jesus is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... His visible manifestation. There are invisible powers, chiefly of which is Satan, and his full-time job is to himself and through those under his command, of whom he is the head, right? Like Christ is the head of the church, he's the head of his own spiritual forces. They have one job, and it's to accuse you, th- to pass judgment onto you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to make you feel condemned, to whisper lies in your ear and in your subconscious.
Seth: So let me just drill down that. So, so Jesus is for... by Him all things were created.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Rulers and thrones.
David: Yes.
Seth: Speaking of these spiritual powers, these-
David: Right
Seth: ... authorities. So, like so you... I just wanna make sure it's like, so there is a sense in which that the forces of darkness have a real authority and power on the earth-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that have been given in a sense by Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so that he could one day defeat them or like rule over them.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes. Is there a question there? [laughs]
Seth: I, I'm, I'm just, I'm just making sure that I'm understanding the world, the other s- the world that I don't know. So I understand the world where my own self is my enemy.
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: In this biblical worldview where Jesus has created all things, including-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... forces of darkness, and delegated authority to them in some sense-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I'm like, well, one, I'm like, well, hold on.
David: Why, why would he do that?
Seth: Why would he do that? But-
David: Well, as fallen people, He gave us over to fallen rulers.
Seth: Yes. So-
David: So we got what we deserved. We wanted to not be ruled by Jesus, to not be ruled by God in the garden. We wanted the snake to rule over us, so we obeyed him instead, so He said, "Fine, here's the ruler you asked for."
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's why. [laughs]
Seth: And if, if you go back to our Tower of Babel podcast on Genesis-
David: We talk about that
Seth: ... we, we do talk about that a little bit. Um, so and, and for regardless of how we think about it, Paul-Had no problems-
David: No
Seth: ... assuming that this was the way that, uh, the world operated.
David: That's right.
Seth: There are spiritual authorities that are attacking you-
David: Yes
Seth: ... con- trying to, and I guess convince you-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that Jesus is not enough.
David: And that you stand condemned.
Seth: That you stand condemned, like there's this, uh, record of debt-
David: Record of debt
Seth: ... that they're constantly reminding you of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and that you're not good enough. So we've all experienced that. I c- when you say spiritual forces in that moment, like, oh, yeah, I get that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When I remember the things I did when I was 12 years old and I still feel guilty for them.
David: Yep.
Seth: Paul would say, "Well, that's an authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who's trying to get you to feel guilty for something Jesus already paid for."
David: That's right. And so how did Jesus triumph over those authority? By kicking them in the teeth? You know, by like, because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he beat them in an arm wrestling match? No. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's because he proved their accusations false in the cross. They say, "You stand condemned." Jesus says, "No, I paid for that."
Seth: Right.
David: They, there is no condemnation now.
Seth: And that, the reason why that's a significant transition in verse 16 is like, well, what, what do we normally feel guilty for? We feel guilty for not reading our Bible enough, for not going to church as often as we do or-
David: Right
Seth: ... celebrating the right Christian festivals, or in particular, if you're in a syncretistic part of the world, we're like, "Oh, you don't keep, you don't keep Passover?"
David: Right.
Seth: "You don't keep the Feast of Booths. You don't keep this." And then the enemy would come in and accuse you-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of not keeping those things. So verse 16 makes a whole bunch more sense now. Therefore, let-
David: Let no one
Seth: ... no one pass judgment on you in questions of food or drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or Sabbath.
David: That's right, which I, which I do wanna give... There's, there was, I, I set up there's two categories for who these rulers are, and I do-
Seth: Yes
David: ... wanna give N. T. Wright his shot here.
Seth: Yes.
David: Is, and th- verse 16 hints at that, is that the rulers and authorities are m- may- maybe not exclusively for Paul, but they might also include physical people, probably religious rulers who make you feel bad.
Seth: Yep.
David: Like, and I'm sure most of us-
Seth: Right
David: ... have experienced that person.
Seth: You had wine with dinner?
David: [laughs]
Seth: I cannot believe you.
David: I cannot believe you. Um, is that what you're wearing into the Lord's house today?
Seth: Yes.
David: Oh.
Seth: [laughs] I'm sor- [laughs] Look, so, so you're, so maybe-
David: This got, this got real quick
Seth: ... your legalistic sister is an authority that Jesus has delegated demonic power to, but besides that [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's what...
David: But yes, uh, I think he's also talking about actual, like, physical rulers over the synagogue or, or, or-
Seth: The church
David: ... the church
Seth: ... church rulers.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That are just judging people for n- for trusting Christ alone. [laughs]
Seth: Right. So it's like, so th- so I mean, so we're making good points. So let's, let's say you w- you are a Gentile Christian.
David: Yep.
Seth: No Jewish background, and you're surrounded by Jewish Christians all of a sudden, and they start making you feel bad for not celebrating the Passover-
David: Right
Seth: ... or eating meat that used to be sacrificed to an idol or drinking wine on the weekend.
David: Right.
Seth: All these things are pretty legitimate things that you would start to have questions about, and the authorities were telling them, "You're wrong for doing them."
David: That's right.
Seth: Making them feel guilty.
David: Yep.
Seth: And in that moment, they were just parroting the demonic forces.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they were trying to harm them.
David: Right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep.
Seth: Interesting.
David: So, but Je- but Jesus has set those legal demands aside, too, and I think it's important to name, like, we've talked about the Sabbath and these food and drink rules and the festivals of the new moon. He's like, "Not only has Christ set aside the accusations on the cross," right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Uh, but also all of these Old Testament regulations," uh, it says, "were only a shadow of things to come," in verse 17.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "But the substance belongs to Christ."
Seth: Yep.
David: This is, again, Christ is all in all.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He is, all things hold together in him. He's the terminal event of all things, even the l- Old Testament law.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That the Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. The food laws are fulfilled in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so if, if someone tries to bring a charge against you for not following those things, you-
Seth: You ha- you already have the reality to which-
David: You have the reality
Seth: ... to which those laws were pointing.
David: In Jesus.
Seth: You're free to eat kosher.
David: You are. You're free to practice the Sabbath fully.
Seth: Because they point you to Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: But to celebrate the Sabbath or eat kosher without reference to Christ is to miss the fullness-
David: That's right
Seth: ... that was there in full in the first place.
David: That's right, yeah, or to judge someone else for not practicing those things because they have the fullness already in Christ.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's a great-
David: Yes
Seth: ... super helpful-
David: There we go, rulers and authorities.
Seth: Rulers and authorities. And, and I think just to name, he calls them elemental spirits-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a couple different times. Verse 20, "If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations? 'Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch,' referring to things that are perished that they're used according to human precepts and teachings." So I think the, the same thing is going on here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, he, he's calling, which I th- N. T.-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... N. T. Wright calls it pretty... He says like, N. T. Wright is saying that the Jewish festivals are elemental, elementary, uh, the elemental spiritual force of the world are ways in which you obey the law without Christ, and Paul actually says the same thing in Galatians chapter 4.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's, he, he talks about being under the law and it bringing a curse, and he says that's an elemental spiritual force apart from Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Christ frees us from the curse of the law to save us, not that the law's bad, not that it didn't point to Christ, just that it ultimately condemned us apart from Christ.
David: I think the other point he's making here is an argument based on degrees. He's like, "Jesus defeated the elemental, earthly, or, or non-earthly spiritual powers that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... are, like, beyond imagination. I think he can handle the Pharisees."
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: I, I think he's also making an argument based on degree, which is really interesting. Okay.
Seth: So, so is Christ the center of, of reality?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus is enough. He is your fullness. He is your wholeness. He is your conqueror who defeats the enemies that try to accuse you based on things that Christ has already paid for. Jesus is enough.
David: [gentle music] All right. So now we're closing down Colossians. We're getting to the back half of the book. I feel like we've done most of the heavy lifting of, like, the really intense cosmic theology.
Seth: Unless you wanna talk about wives submitting to their husbands-
David: Uh [laughs]
Seth: ... slavery, and, uh [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Everything else.
David: Um, can we let future Seth and future David worry about that?
Seth: Future Seth and David will talk about that.
David: Yes.
Seth: For now, what we really need to know is what Paul keeps getting at, if Christ is the center of reality, your relationship to these s- syncretistic things that you're dealing with-
David: That are trying to condemn you
Seth: ... are pointless.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, Christ is better than those things.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Don't worry about them. But because Christ is the center of reality, you too, and we have Christ is in you, you are new people.
David: Yeah. If you're, if the center of your reality shifts, you're gonna look different.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. And, like, this goes back to even something, a category he set up back in the Christ hymn that we read, that Jesus is the, is the firstborn of this new creation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? So who are the secondborn?
Seth: If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things which are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are the secondborn.
David: We are the secondborn. We are now a part of this new birthed from the grave humanity that has reoriented its reality around Jesus instead of anything else.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus and His resurrection life is now the center, not just of our spiritual experience, but really in this last half, our ethical experience.
David: Yes, our lived reality, uh, because He is in us. He's dwelling with us, so the way we do things changes.
Seth: And since Christ died and rose again, that's how he talks about it.
David: Mm.
Seth: When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. So what do you do? Put to death therefore what is earthly in you. What's from the grave, don't do anymore.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Do things that tend towards life.
David: Yeah, but it's not put things to, uh, put the things that are earthly in you to death so that you might have life.
Seth: No.
David: It's you have life, therefore put to death that which is fleshly and earthly in you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's-
Seth: It's like act like you, act like living people.
David: Like, yeah
Seth: Act like new human, humans.
David: Be who you are in Christ already. You're not being to become. You are, you are becoming what you already are. [laughs]
Seth: That's right. Yes.
David: Yeah, which is a confusing concept, but-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's extremely helpful to know that you are already-
Seth: It's one of-
David: ... full of Christ. [laughs]
Seth: It is the most unique cr- cl- claim about Christianity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is that you do not behave before you belong.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You belong before you're commanded to behave.
David: That's right.
Seth: That it's a fundamental truth about Christianity that most people get wrong, and I mean, even in my early years of Christianity, you get wrong too. And I remember, I still re- I, I think about this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... a lot. I was talking to a friend of mine. He wasn't a believer. He was my roommate at the time, and he was talking about all these other religions, about how it's just like, you know, well, you j- everyo- everyone just basically, like, you have these commands, and if you do the commands, you get to God.
David: Oh, he's like, "That's all religions."
Seth: That's all religions. And I remember, like, having a hard time, like, re- like, me- realizing this moment right here.
David: Oh.
Seth: And I was like, "Well, that's why we have Jesus, to help us try our hardest."
David: Oh.
Seth: And I felt s- I, and I, like, I thought about that so many times, like, man, that's actually not true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the one claim about Christianity that's the opposite. It's not that we, Jesus helps us to try our hardest so that He will like us. It's that He makes us His own so that we can work in His own power, in the fullness of who He is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... [laughs] the fullness of God dwelling in us, to behave like we're full of life.
David: Right.
Seth: That's the opposite.
David: Yeah. And so if He's made us this new, like, these new people who live in a new way, then what about the Greeks next to me and the Jews next to me?
Seth: Mm.
David: Who's right? Is it the Jews, or is it the Greeks? Like, wh- who, to what people group do I belong if I'm a new person?
Seth: Here-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in the Kingdom of God, there is not Greek and Jew.
David: Oh, wait, what?
Seth: Circumcised and-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free, but Christ is all and in all.
David: Boom.
Seth: This doesn't mean that we erase our ethnic identity.
David: No.
Seth: It doesn't mean we erase our gendered identity. What it means is that the most fundamental thing about us mirrors the most fundamental re- a- fact about reality-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: And that's because of verse 10 right before it. It's because we are being made into the image of our creator.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, he created all these categories-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but we're not being made into those categories. We've already been, you know.
Seth: Yeah, which is why I love this fact. If you look at ver- verse 17, so it's like, okay, so how then, okay, so if this is true-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... how then do you do the stuff? How then do you live the ethical life?
David: Right. I still, like, I still have to, like-
Seth: And that's hard work
David: ... obey.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's, like, that still requires effort from me to look like l- a living new human, and what does he say, verse 17? "In whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." What's the bedrock of acting according to Jesus's law?
David: Thanks?
Seth: Thanking Him. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's good. Yeah.
Seth: So I love that.
David: Yeah, because why? Because He's already done for you what you wanted to do for yourself. It's like, man, thank you for that. I think I'm gonna live differently now.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When you thank God for the new reality He's creating inside you, that encourages you to act like it.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, 'cause He's done something for you. Yeah, um, I, I remember in my, in my book, "Rewire," I use a, a dumb little, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... illustration to talk about this, and it was like, okay, imagine you have this woman who for some reason hates the dog on the other side of her fence, her neighbor's dog-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on the other side of the fence, and she'll just go up to the dog, yell at it, make fun of it, eat in front of it and be like, "Yeah, this looks delicious, doesn't it?" And she just, like, loves to deride this dog.
Seth: Yep.
David: She's sadistic. Um, and then one day she's out in, in her front yard getting the mail, and a big, giant, strange dog comes up and is, like, about to pounce on her, and all of the sudden, this dog she hates from the neighbor's backyard comes, jumps in front, saves her from the attack, scares off the big, strange dog.Do you think that woman is gonna act differently toward that dog from now on? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Yes. Why? 'Cause she's thankful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's like she's gonna, instead of eating in front of the dog, she's gonna go bring the dog food.
Seth: Right.
David: Not because she needs to earn the salvation that has already happened-
Seth: Right
David: ... but because she's acting out of thanksgiving. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Anyway.
Seth: It, it's a good analogy.
David: It's a, it's a dumb little picture.
Seth: I like it.
David: I like it.
Seth: Um, so the point is, if Christ is the center of reality and Christ is in us, and he's transforming our relationship to our spiritual world, he's also transforming our relationship with our ethical world, and fundamentally, how do, what does that affect? The most basic of our human relationships.
David: Mm.
Seth: Our marriages, our children, and our boss-employee relationships.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, who we are as fathers and mothers, who we are as husbands and wives, who we are as, uh, slave and master-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in this context.
David: And I think, like, it's really easy for us as, as 20- 21st century Westerners to be like-
Seth: That's, like, a really personal thing that gets changed, and it is. It absolutely is.
David: Yes. But also, if you were reading this in the first century-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the household and the structure of the household, especially that the husband can domineer over his wife and children and slaves, was the bedrock of Roman society.
Seth: Right, and what you notice immediately about that too is that there's no mention of single male and female.
David: Mm.
Seth: There's no, uh, there's no emphasis on what about, like, uh, me as a m- man transformed by Christ, or a woman transformed by Christ? Paul doesn't pick up on that here. He will in other books of the Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: But the, but the point I'm trying, I was trying to make is there's a fundamental reshaping of the way that Roman society functioned.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he'll pick up elsewhere that that even transforms ourself as single people.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and I wanted to mention that now because it's really easy to overlook that, that, that m- many Christians are not married.
David: Right.
Seth: So changing our fundamental reality, the most fundamental relationships we have aren't always-
David: Marriage-based
Seth: ... marriage-based.
David: Or nuclear family-based.
Seth: Or nuclear family-based. So I just wanted, I didn't wanna enable it here-
David: That's good, yeah
Seth: ... uh, before we moved on. But yes, the point is...
David: It changes everything from the ground up is the point.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And according to Roman society, this family unit, a patriarch with his wife and his children and his slaves, was how society functioned.
David: He was head of the house.
Seth: And society, essentially.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, from the g- from the bottom up, it was a pyramid.
Seth: Like-
David: And it was just, like, male dominance over the weaker, from the bottom all the way up to the top. And it's like, okay, but if the reality, if the center of reality is shifted away from Caesar, who is the top of that pyramid-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of subjugation, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Male subjugation over everyone else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Let's say that the center of reality, who's God in the flesh, did not come to reign and rule with an iron fist and kill everybody and subjugate the world. Instead, he died on a cross for those who don't deserve it. V- and then that person comes and lives in you and is making you into his image.
Seth: How does it reform the basic building blocks of Roman society?
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: That's what, that's what Paul's doing-
David: That's what's happening here
Seth: ... doing right here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's radically transforming some- what, what they were used to.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I will say, when we do... We'll come to this, just as a teaser. It's like we th- we wanna think that that all goes one way.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, but I think the transformative nature of Christ in us would be radically different for both 21st century ideas of these relationships and Roman ones.
David: It would.
Seth: And I wanna explore that a little bit. I don't know what... I, I'm still, like, n- at a loss to what that means precisely.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But it's like if there is a, we talked about, like, as a Copernican Re- Revolution.
David: Yes.
Seth: If there is something fundamental about reality in Christ that's changed in me, my marriage must change.
David: It must.
Seth: My relationship with my employees must change, and I can't assume that just because I live further down the timeline-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that I'm more enlightened and I'm closer to God's ideal.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, this actually challenges me in ways that I'm not prepared for, and I can escape out from under that by only appealing to the ways that it fixed Roman problems.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, I m- and it all, I'll, I'll say I'm excited to talk about it.
David: I am too, now.
Seth: We're gonna, we're gonna come to it. [laughs]
David: Man, yes. But yeah, I think at the end, a- and, and maybe that's a really good place to start to land this plane, is, uh, you just dropped the, the C, the C-bomb, the Copernicus Revolution.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, uh, you know, this whole idea, like, the w- the world changed. The way we thought about ourselves in, uh, uh, on the planet changed whenever we realized that Earth did not, was not the center of the universe, that it revolved around the sun. And it's like, oh, well, we're a part of, that means we're a part of something larger than ourselves.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And everything's not centered around us. That was, that was the revolution that happened there. Um, and that is what Paul is claiming happens in Christ, that Christ is the center of the universe, not the sun.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Everything revolves around him, so therefore, the way we view weather patterns-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know, and, like, which job you, we choose and how we spend our money and which words we decide to use in our daily vocabulary.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Everything changes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because we're centered around a different sun, and that means we're going to look different than the people that think they're still circling around a star.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We just will.
Seth: Our orbits will collide.
David: Yeah, our orbits will collide.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Absolutely right. Uh, wow.
Seth: So that's Colossians. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That was fun. I really liked that. What, like, are you, like, taking one big takeaway out of this?
Seth: Um, man, I think it's the same takeaway that we started with, but I just appreciate it a little bit more.
David: True.
Seth: It's like, Jesus is enough.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's not just enough to solve my spiritual problems. He's also a compelling reason why to change the, like, fundamental building blocks of my life.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, oh, I want my life to look more like the one whom reality is based off of.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, a little bit more at the end of Colossians I did at the beginning.
David: Yeah, I like that. I think I'm thinking about, um, the ways that I'm trying to add things to Christ only.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I like, I'm like, man, I wanna go think about that and be like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what am I...?
Seth: The fullness of God dwells in you-
David: Oh
Seth: ... David.
David: That's too good. I gotta, that's a lot. That's so good. Well, thank you guys for walking through this, this podcast with us that probably was like five times longer than it would take to just read Colossians.
Seth: Yes, most certainly. You should read, just read Colossians. [laughs]
David: Just read Colossians.
Seth: It's very short.
David: Very good.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But, uh, anyway, thank you guys so much for being with us, and, uh, we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]