Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: I'm feeling ready.
David: You're feeling ready.
Seth: Excited for the Book of Judges.
David: Excited for the Book of Judges.
Seth: I mean, excited is a strong word.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, but it is a word. [laughs]
David: What, what, what are, what are the conceptions, like the, like insofar as a normal Christian can just have a conception of the Book of Judges in their head, what do you think it is that-
Seth: I-
David: ... people are coming to this with?
Seth: I almost, like, posted this on Instagram. I was like, "What do you think when you come to the Book of Judges?"
David: Oh, you all just asked that question. [laughs]
Seth: Like, did like an Instagram poll. Um, I think what most people think about when they come to the Book of Judges is, "Oh, that's the story about Samson and Gideon and Ehud," and those were great stories when I re- read them as a kid.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think that's kind of about, might be as far as it goes for a lot of people. And then I think for a lot of other people, and maybe those same people, they're like, "But it's a little more complicated, and it gets kinda dark at the end."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's probably... I don't, I don't know, but that's my guess. Most people coming in is like, "Oh, these are the cool, this is where the cool stories were where I heard as a kid, and it also gets c- really weird with the concubine. And I don't know what that's about, but it's, it's dark." [laughs]
David: Yeah. I think, I think it's probably one of the two. It's like you, you either have people who are like, "Oh yeah, Samson, Deborah," you know, if you know these people, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... JL, you know, all these people. Uh, those are like action-packed stories. I think I remember telling you, like, uh, if you were just reading through the Bible, this is the most exciting book so far.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: You know, book seven. [laughs] Uh, but then there's probably, I think other people are probably like, "Oh, that's a dark book."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like-
Seth: And I also think there's, like, another category of people who come to it, and they were, like, reading the Bible with their kids-
David: Oh, and they're like-
Seth: And they're like-
David: ... "We're skipping this one."
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: "Let's go to Ruth."
Seth: I remember a mom [laughs] who was like, "Hey, Seth, like, I was just reading to my kids the Bible." I'm like, "Oh, that's great." She's like, "Yeah, it was Judges 19." And I was like, "Okay."
David: Oh.
Seth: "So that's when... Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah." Which if you don't know, it's where a whole town demands to rape a man and then rapes his wife instead.
David: And then, and then-
Seth: And then-
David: ... her, and then her-
Seth: Or-
David: ... husband chops her up into little pieces.
Seth: Yes. That's, so that's what she read to her children, and she couldn't stop once she started because [laughs] that would be worse than not finishing. [laughs] So anyway.
David: Judges.
Seth: That's the Book of Judges.
David: Uh, and that's the episode. There you go. [laughs]
Seth: There you go.
David: Uh, okay. So what w- what should then, as we approach this book, what should we have in our mind as we approach the Book of Judges, like, canonically? Like-
Seth: Canonically.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay, so-
David: Where are we in the story?
Seth: Joshua goes into the Promised Land.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, and he begins to root out all of the Canaanite civilizations that were built around the worship to the Canaanite gods.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And those religions were based around certain sexually immoral practices and the sacrifice of children.
David: Yes. Those are things that are highlighted in the law.
Seth: In Leviticus 18-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and Deuteronomy 26, I think.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and God said, "Don't be like them in your own laws."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "And then when you go into that land, remove those practices, remove those shrines, remove those temples from the, your, the land, and establish the, the trust in Yahweh-
David: Right
Seth: ... as the only, as the only faith."
David: Yeah, in the same way that the, you know, the tabernacle you read about in Leviticus, you would clean it up, and it would be purified.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, and it would be holy. God was having Israel go in and make the land holy-
Seth: Yep
David: ... to purify it from really wicked things that we would still call wicked, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... mostly w- most people would call wicked today.
Seth: Yes.
David: Especially, like, child sacrifice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay? So Israel's-
Seth: So-
David: ... going into this land. Uh-
Seth: And-
David: We read about this in Joshua. They're-
Seth: And-
David: ... clearing it out
Seth: ... through the Book of Joshua, Joshua is essentially undefeated.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: In every single battle he does, the Lord is fighting on his side-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or at, with him against the enemies. The enemies are being routed. Faith in Yahweh is being established as the one true, uh, faith of the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And, like, the Garden of Eden looks like it's being planted.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like-
David: We even have, like, Canaanites renouncing their former religion and naming Yahweh as God of heaven and Earth in Rahab.
Seth: That's exactly right. So that's what's happening in the bush- book of, uh-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Joshua.
David: Joshua. And it's probably important to note that Joshua was, like Moses, was filled with the Spirit of God and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was empowered for leadership, was-
Seth: Yes
David: ... empowered to do miraculous things like part the Jordan River, all these things.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so the Book of Judges opens-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the way the Book of Joshua ends, with a list of territories that have not yet been conquered yet.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So at, right before Jo- as Joshua's aging, he says, "Hey, here's all the c- counties and countries and territories that have not yet been c- conquered."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Go knowing that the Holy Spirit will be with you, that God will be with you, that we are gonna, that He will still fight by our side as we trust in Him. He will give us the land that He promised us. He will push out child sacrifice. He will push out immorality, and his kingdom will come."
David: Okay. That-
Seth: That's the way J- Joshua ends.
David: That's a really important thing to note-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I don't think for the longest time I even read Judges as, like, a continuation of the conquest.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which was like there was still evil in the land that, that, uh, Israel was supposed to drive out militarily.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then you come to the Book of Judges-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and it kinda repeats that story for you a little bit, and, but you get some concerning news in verse 19. Whereas Joshua had been undefeated in all of his battles, we start hearing that-The armies of Israel are starting to get defeated over and over again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the Lord was with Judah, this is verse 19, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron. Never before is somebody's technological advancement an obstacle to God because it doesn't really matter.
David: Right.
Seth: They blew their trumpets and the walls came down. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like it's like technology wasn't an issue-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because the Lord was fighting for them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The fact that a, an iron chariot can somehow overpower the Israelite army is a hint at something's going wrong-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the nation of Israel.
David: Yeah, and it, I mean, it just gets exacerbated throughout the rest of that chapter. Manasseh didn't drive everybody out.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, like the Danites didn't drive everybody out. Zebulun didn't drive everybody out.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, it just, yeah, uh, o- over and over again. And I think the big linchpin change that's happening is Joshua is dead. That's how the book opens, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Joshua dies. After, that's the first, the first words of the book.
Seth: Yeah, after the death of Joshua.
David: After the deaths of, death of Joshua.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So you had the spirit-empowered leader who was faithful to Yahweh, led his people with strength and courage, [laughs] you know, to repeat Joshua 1, is dead, and this leads to what looks like cracks in the surface.
Seth: Yeah. And if you remember back to when Joshua was about to take his first battle, uh, the Battle of Jericho-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... he meets an angel of the Lord.
David: Right.
Seth: And there's this angel decked out ready for war, and Joshua in fear asks him, "Whose side are you on? Are you for us or are you for our enemies?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: And the angel says, "Neither."
David: Right.
Seth: "I serve the Lord."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so it's this kind of important moment in the book where you're like, "Well, whose side is Joshua on? Is he on the Lord's side or is he not on the Lord's side?" And when he's on the Lord's side, the angel fights with him and all the enemies are defeated. So when you come to the opening chapters of Judges and you see Israel being defeated, you can now see the a- angel of the Lord is now fighting against Israel, or at least no longer fighting with Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: So you're seeing, like, an undoing or the faith that marked Joshua's leadership is now dissolving, and that the, the, the, the, um, the destruction that could go both ways-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for the arm- from the angel of the Lord is actually cutting both ways. Yes, some destruction's happening over here in Canaan, but also destruction's happening in Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, um, what's at stake i, in the book, like, right now? I, I mean, not, it's not just Israel flourishing as a geopolitical nation, right? What, like, what is at stake in this book? Why should we care when they fail and when they succeed and-
Seth: Because if they're failing to drive out the inhabitants of the land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they're failing to bring the Garden of Eden back and to live in God's presence. The whole point-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of being in the land of Canaan was to be with God in his presence, in his garden kingdom forever. We're trying to get back to the Garden of Eden, and the way that they were supposed to do that was by obeying the Lord, by obeying his law and obeying his commandments. Adam and Eve did not obey God's law-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they ate of the fruit.
David: And they got kicked out of the land.
Seth: And they got kicked out of the land.
David: [laughs]
Seth: They have now been given new laws, said, "Obey these laws and now here's the land. Go take it and if you obey my law, you can be in the land in my presence of plenty. Milk and honey, flocks and sheep in abundance everywhere. It'll just be like the Garden of Eden. Obey my law, drive out the inhabitants of the land." And so what's at stake is being with God.
David: [laughs] That's a big one.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] It's like, so if they d- if they're not doing this, their relationship with God is on the line.
David: Mm.
Seth: Humanity's ability to live with God and be with God is on the line.
David: Because it's not just Israel's ability to live with God, Israel was supposed to set up this place as a light to the nations.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: This is God's step one in his project with humanity to reconcile them to himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so if Israel fails to create a locus for the presence of God among the nations, not only are they without hope, the nations, the world is without hope.
Seth: Yeah. Without, without somebody conquering the enemies of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God's presence cannot be on the earth, right? Like, so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... w- w- if, and so nobody can experience God's presence.
David: Mm.
Seth: So if there isn't a destruction of the enemies of God, God's presence will not come.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, that's what's at stake.
David: Okay. So, um, how, uh, like, so, uh, we see, like, cracks in the surface, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that, okay, so it seems like some of these pockets that are around Israel still have the enemies of God in them. They weren't able to drive them out. Um, how does that progress into, like, into what becomes the famous cycle of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Book of Judges?
Seth: So what ends up happening is that instead of driving out the Canaanites-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Israel becomes just like the Canaanites.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: So, like that, the, the, the, the through line, the most salient point, the most obvious point that the Book of Judges makes is that Israel is no different than Canaan.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it happens slowly over the course of sev- like, the 400 and something years or-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 94 to 30 years. Um, Samuel talks about how long it took.
David: Oh.
Seth: Yeah, anyway.
David: Right.
Seth: Over the course of 400 something years, Israel changes from a nation that fears Yahweh, where God fights on their side, into a nation that looks just like Canaan, and God's sword is drawn against them.
David: Gotcha. So they-
Seth: The angel of the Lord-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... no longer fights with them.
David: Mm.
Seth: He fights against them.
David: So there's heavy irony going on here, where the people they were supposed to, uh, root out, they become.
Seth: Yep.
David: And the power by which they were going to drive them out, drives them out.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yep.
David: That make sense?
Seth: That's, that's, that's, that's, that's the big meta picture of what's happening in the Book of Judges.
David: The big meta picture.
Seth: And so that should also inform, like, our normal reading of all these heroes within the Book of Judges. So there are some heroic things that happen-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the Book of Judges. There are moments of faith in the Book of Judges. So Gideon and Samson, like, they have their moments. But-They really only serve to highlight the fact that Israel's falling further and further into their own demise-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and into the practices of the land. Even the leaders themselves like devolve into being no different than the people in the land of Canaan.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, so like I wanna temper our like expectations for heroes in the story-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because there's not really a ton of them in the, the classic sense. Like [laughs] it's like-
David: In the VBS sense.
Seth: In the VBS sense.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like there's like, this is not the place for VBS in a lot of ways. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Definitely not. No.
Seth: I like, I w- I talk, I talk about like the Breaking Bad of the Bible. I've, if you've seen Breaking Bad. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like there's like, it's a, a picture of a man, like the br- this whole series is Walter White becoming the dru- the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the kingpin.
David: Going from like a really calm, mild-mannered, suburban chemistry teacher-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to being a kingpin in the meth world of New Mexico. [laughs]
Seth: Right. And that's the story here. [laughs] Like you have just like this... And so yeah, there are moments of like, "Oh, he's, he's a good man," or, "He's a good husband."
David: Yeah.
Seth: But like all it's really doing is showing the destruction-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of that lifestyle.
David: And it's a downward spiral.
Seth: It's a downward spiral.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Just like that's the same kinda thing that's happening.
David: Okay. Two things I wanna highlight real quick before-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we wrap up this opening section. One is, um, who are the judges? Why is this book called Judges? How should we think about the judges as characters or as a title, as people, as leaders? And then what is this cycle, the-
Seth: Right
David: ... the p- like the pattern the book follows that we should be clued into. So first off, what are judges?
Seth: What are-
David: Why judges?
Seth: Yeah.
David: What, what's happening there?
Seth: Yeah. So there's a phrase used throughout the Book of Judges, which is something along the lines of, "And God raised up a deliverer."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or, "God raised up a judge."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what's more-
David: Are those different words?
Seth: It's... So, so the word judge is a translation of a word that is used in the text.
David: Shofet.
Seth: Yes. And that's most basically, um, deliverer or savior.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the more literal translation should be like the Book of Deliverers or the Book of Saviors. Uh, because of some weird translation stuff, it ended up being Judge. Uh, so really, though, it's the Book of Deliverers.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's the Book of Saviors.
David: But I mean, it also like, the sh- shofets are also like, like mentioned before in the law about the ones who deliberate, and we're e- we even see people like-
Seth: Deborah
David: ... Samson and Deborah deliberating, like making judgments for the people-
Seth: Yes
David: ... settling c- cases.
Seth: Deborah is, in fact, the only person in the Book of Judges that's ever described as fulfilling a legal function.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So there is like some weirdness to the way the language works out, where it's like, well, th- there is a legal function in the word judge.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So Deborah does that.
David: Right.
Seth: People bring her cases, and she's hearing them. But we actually don't really hear about a legal function when Ehud is slaughtering Eglon, and he's not deliberating between cases. He's acting as a deliverer.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's a savior for his people. So I think-
David: Yeah. We also have minor judge characters who we don't hear about their military exploits. We just hear that they judged Israel for X number of years.
Seth: Yep.
David: Are we supposed to assume that they were military-based deliverers, or that they were just rightly dividing God's word and helping people live in accordance with God? Is it both?
Seth: It could be both.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think the p- the ones that are highlighted, so you, so you have Deborah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you have Ehud, you have Samson, you have Gideon. The ones that are-
David: Their military exploits
Seth: ... their military exploits.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like that's why a lot of like scholars will just call like it the Book of Deliverers.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Book of Deliverers. And even within the Book of Judges itself, you have the first three chapters, which are kind of the introduction. Then you have chapter, the end of chapter three to about chapter s- uh, 18-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as the Book of Deliverers, the, then the successive deliverers who save Israel from enemy oppression. And then at the very end, you have this, the, the people themselves, not leaders, kinda going to pot.
David: Okay. I mean, that makes sense.
Seth: Um-
David: They don't, they don't fit the normal way a le- a judge, as the law describes it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... would've been selected.
Seth: Yep.
David: Those, those would've been clan-based in the tribes. There've been multiples of them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh-
Seth: And there was like a court system, like a-
David: Yes
Seth: ... hierarchical court system that was supposed to be appealed to.
David: Right.
Seth: But we don't really see them fulfilling that role.
David: No. So it doesn't fit that. And then it also, hot on the heels of Joshua, and the need of the book is to continue driving out the inhabitants. It's no wonder that these deliverers are, uh, saving Israel from the nations, driving out the nations. So when we think about them as a judge, if we wanna use that word-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they are carrying out God's judgment on the nations, too, right?
Seth: Yes. So w- it's kinda hard to answer this question without also talking about the cycle. Uh, 'cause we-
David: Okay, sure. Yeah
Seth: ... we can, we can-
David: Let's complet- Yeah, definitely.
Seth: So what ends up happening, so the first chapter of the Book of Judges essentially gives us the narrative up till now, Joshua's death-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and a series of military defeats that kind of tell you something, something's wrong.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And then chapter two bleeding into chapter three sets up a pattern the rest of the Book of Judges will follow.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So you're gonna have Israel... The, the pattern begins with Israel's disobedience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're gonna do what's right in their own eyes, or they're gonna do what's evil in the eyes of the Lord. And that's a really important phrase, so much so that Samson, the last judge, his eyes are cut out.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: So it's like there's a ton of irony in the Book of Judges. So like they're doing whatever is right in their own eyes.
David: And the last judge has no eyes.
Seth: And the last judge has no eyes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's blind. Um, so there's, they're doing whatever's right in their own eyes. And so God punishes Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by sending an army to judge their, um, disobedience and them being like the land of Canaan.
David: So God is acting as the judge.
Seth: God is acting as the judge.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then in the middle of that oppression by a na- another nation, whether the Philistines or the Amor- Ammonites or the Amorites, the people of Israel will cry out for mercy.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then God will raise up a judge. He'll raise up a deliverer who will banish the people and provide a, a season of peace.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that pattern of disobedience, um, of-
David: Punishment
Seth: Punishment plea for mercy
David: Deliverance
Seth: ... deliverance
David: Peace
Seth: ... peace-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is repeated over and over throughout the Book of Judges-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... except when it's not, and that's really important.
David: Yes. Yes, yes.
Seth: But that's the basic pattern
David: That's the paradigm that you're-
Seth: That's the-
David: ... supposed to clue in on
Seth: ... and that's the, that's the paradigm. And so what hap- so the book, the term judge in one sense refers that judge that God raises up to judge Israel. That's the phrase, to judge Israel.
David: Oh, right. Yes, yes.
Seth: But in a lot of ways, it's, does two things.
David: Mm.
Seth: It judges the enemies of Israel, but at the same time it acts as a rebuke to Israel at the same time
David: Because of the kind of judges they're getting?
Seth: Because of the kind-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of judges that they're getting. And there's the fact that God's judging Israel by sending other enemies. So it's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... the Book of Judges makes sense because there's a lot of judgment going on.
David: There's a lot of judgment.
Seth: God's judgment of Israel, Israel's judgment against the enemies, and even the leaders as judgments and rebukes of Israel itself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So there's like, there's layers to the judges. And so we should name it at this point then. So what is a judge? Actually, the judge of Israel, of the Book of Judges, is God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's only one time that the person, the judge, a judge, is ever called a judge, and it's God.
David: It's Yahweh, yep.
Seth: Every other time, we're told someone judges, verb form-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... judges Israel. Gideon judged Israel. Deborah judged Israel. Samson judged Israel. But only one time are we told that there's an actual judge as a character.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that character is God.
David: Yeah, uh, chapter 11, verse 27. It's the end of Jephthah's letter to Ammon the king, which is a whole story we'll get into later. But he says, "I have not wronged you, but you, uh, have wronged me by waging war against me," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's this whole political dispute happening.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he says this: "Let Yahweh, the judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."
Seth: And what's really funny about that, which we'll get to, is that he, I don't think he even believes what he's saying. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, he's saying, "Yeah, God's the judge, so let Him, like-
David: He's, He's-
Seth: ... adjudicate for me," but he's just making, he's just using-
David: God as a political pawn.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's, it's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's gross.
David: That-
Seth: Anyway
David: ... that is gross. [laughs]
Seth: Um-
David: I've never seen a politician do that, though.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: No, but no politician uses the name of God to gather voters. [laughs] That's ridiculous. [laughs]
David: How dare you even, even assert-
Seth: I don't know what world you live in, David.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But we live in America.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That never happens.
David: Whoops. [laughs]
Seth: Anyway, sorry. We got on... That's the Book of Judges.
David: That's the Book of Judges.
Seth: It br- it brings it out in us.
David: Um.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes.
Seth: Does that answer your question about who or what is the judge, who are the judges, and what is the cycle?
David: Yes. I think, and from a overview standpoint, that's about as much as we can say. Um, obviously, all of these things will become highlighted and put in sharp relief as we dig-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into each of these characters throughout the podcast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, let me end this section by just reading Judges 2:16-19.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because this is just straight from the Bible, and it just proves that the cycle, this is the cycle that takes place again and again and again throughout Judges. "Then the Lord raised up judges," they were just in distress, if you wanted to know. "Then the Lord raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. Yet they would not listen to their judges, but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from the ways of their ancestors and, uh, who had been obedient to the Lord's commands. Whenever Yahweh raised up a judge for them, he was the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as, as long as the judge lived," which I think I wanna talk about later. "For the Lord relented because of their groaning under, uh, those who oppressed and afflicted them." So there's the cry for deliverance.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Uh, but when that judge died," yet again, "the people returned to the ways, uh, even more corrupt than those of their ancestors." So it's a downward spiral.
Seth: Yes, so it's-
David: It's not only a cycle
Seth: ... not just a pattern
David: ... yeah, it's getting worse and worse and worse-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as it goes on. Um, and they would follow the other gods and worship these other gods, and they refused to give up their evil practices and their stubborn ways.
Seth: Yep.
David: So, like, even in this synopsis, it's repeated, like, three times.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's, it's a cycle of disobedience and deliverance, but every cycle is a copy of a copy. It's just getting worse.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's ex- that's exactly right. And then we should probably talk about the purpose of the cycle-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... and the purpose of the judgment, which is just after that in verse 22. "And God did all this in order to test Israel by the nations that remained-
David: Yes
Seth: ... uh, whether or not they will take care to walk in the ways of the Lord as their father did, uh, or not." [laughs]
David: Yep. [laughs] Um, this is like the thesis statement of the book. It's like, let's do a, a living experiment with Israel. Will they obey the Lord? Uh, like, and, like, we won't really know that if-
Seth: Right
David: ... there weren't obstacles in the way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So God leaves-
Seth: Well, it's not even an experiment. It's what we said up in the beginning.
David: Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: It's like-
David: That has connotations I didn't mean
Seth: ... yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Well, but I mean, it's just like, it's the truth.
David: Yes.
Seth: Will we obey the Lord?
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Will we enter into His presence?
David: Yep.
Seth: Will we say no to the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... gods of the land? Will we say yes to God alone?
David: Will we eat of the tree of knowledge, or will we obey God and be given the tree of life?
Seth: And just like in the Garden of Eden, just like Joshua and hi- his time with the angel of the Lord, just l- now, it's like the same test is being presented to us over and over and over again. Will we obey the Lord?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then when we see, um, persecution come, when we see enemies surround us, when we see as if the promises of God aren't working out for us, what we're gonna be attempted to do was abandon our trust in God. Well, obviously obeying God doesn't work, 'cause look, all these enemies around us.
David: Right. And, and we just adopt the cultural idols to, to cope.
Seth: But actually, that's, that's the test.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: When it do- when it looks like everything is against God's people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that's your turn to say, "No, I will trust in God alone."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's actually a really hard test to pass.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like, [laughs] if, if it looks like God is punishing us, why should we trust Him? Like, that's like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... there's like, that's like the skeptical bent on the question, but it's also why it's really hard.
David: Though He slay me, yet I hope in Him. [laughs]
Seth: Yes. Oh, wait, what is that from?
David: Is that Job?
Seth: Is that from Job?
David: I think so.
Seth: I think.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Oh, it's, it's a good line.
David: That's my mom's favorite verse. [laughs]
Seth: "Though he slay me, I will hope in him."
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, that's kind of like the test.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Will we trust in God even when he's judging us for our disobedience?
David: Yeah. Which Jesus does perfectly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was being judged on our behalf, and yet he trusted the Lord. "Into your hands I commit my spirit," even unto death.
Seth: He passed the test.
David: He passed the test on a tree. [laughs]
Seth: On a tree, which is why we can have access into God's presence.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, why, why does the book, the test work? Because Jesus passed it.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, the s- the same story's being repeated, and it ends in Christ.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And when Jesus passed the test, we get God's presence with him. Our enemies die, and they can no longer actually hurt us anymore. The enemies of death, doesn't work-
David: Nope
Seth: ... because we'll live forever. Sin can no longer condemn us before God because Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, and we no longer have to feel guilty for the things that we've done. Those two big enemies are taken care of, and then because Jesus sits on his throne above all principalities and powers, there actually is not a kingdom in the world, a president, emperor, or dictator that actually controls our destiny.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God does. [gentle music] Okay, so I have already written all the de- devotionals-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... for this, and you have read the Book of Judges-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but haven't got to do as much study as I have.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So as you read through the Book of Judges-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what are the questions that you had left over that you think will, would benefit you personally, but also our listeners before they even get to [laughs] the Book of Judges?
David: Yeah. Uh, so I mean, one thing, uh, that I, kind of coming to the end of the book, there seems to be, like, at the... So if this is a downward spiral, which it definitely is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as we get to the bottom of the barrel, um, a new repeated refrain comes up, and it's that there's no king in Israel, and that seems extremely significant- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because it's repeated.
Seth: No king in Israel, everyone did what was right in their own eyes.
David: That's the other thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So those are two things that I have on my list that I wanna talk about a little bit more.
Seth: Okay.
David: Is, so which one do you wanna do first?
Seth: Well, let's, let's just compare those phrases-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... to what happens earlier. So in most of the Book of Judges, it, the phrase is, "And they did what was evil in the sight of the Lord."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's almost in differ- so they did what was evil in the sight of the Lord versus, um, they did what was right in their own eyes.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the reference to God is no longer-
David: Yeah, so it's the difference between evil and right.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's the difference between themselves and God.
Seth: Yes. And so, so the, I think that's just really important to name.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And there's a transition that happens between those two phrases. Whenever the phrase is that people did what was, uh, uh, what was evil in the sight of the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there's always a leader and a deliverer that is raised up-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... to rescue them.
David: It's like the thing that always comes right after that statement-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is the deliverer.
Seth: Yeah, there's, an oppres- oppressor comes and oppresses Israel, and then a deliverer comes to rescue them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... not just from the deliverer, but from their past sins-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and doing what was evil in the sight of the Lord. In that last section of the Book of Judges from chapter 19 to 21, no new deliverers are brought up.
David: There's no new judge after Samson, right?
Seth: There's no new judge after Samson.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, and instead, it's there was no king in Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: Everyone did what was right in their own eyes. So based on that, what, yeah, what, what do you think?
David: Yeah, so I mean, well, first off, I mean, I'm, I'm like, uh, doing right, doing what is right in your own eyes s- in, and especially in the middle of a book where we're supposed to be ex- like, expecting to see the Garden of Eden come back.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, we're trying to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... root out evil and reestablish a place where God and man can live together, the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Yep.
David: Doing what is right in your own eyes sounds like the same thing that Eve and Adam did at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Seth: They saw the fruit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it seemed good to them-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they took it.
David: It wasn't what was, what God told them to do. It was-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but they thought it was right in their own eyes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so they did it. And so it seems to be they're repeating the sins of their, of their forefathers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and then so that kind of looks backwards.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, um, and then very grimly forward. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, but then there was no king in Israel seems to be, uh, pointing toward something-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's like, when did we start talking about kings? We were talking about judges.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, why are we talking about kings now? And, like, I didn't even know we were supposed to have a king. Like, what's going on with that?
Seth: Yes. Well, one way to read it is it's just a synonym for judge.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Like, it's, there's no leader in Israel.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And things are getting worse.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in narratively, that kind of makes sense. There was a period of judges or period of deliverers, period of saviors. In the last four chapters, there's no deliverer. There was no king-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Israel. And you could read forward into that, s- saying the author of the Book of Judges lived during the time of the kings-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and was saying, "See what happens when you have no king and no good leader? Everything is terrible." That's one way to read it.
David: Yeah, I mean-
Seth: Uh
David: ... especially if it seems like the book is setting up a paradigm for you need a spirit-filled leader-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to save you, and as long as they're alive and interceding for you, things are good, but when they die, it gets bad.
Seth: Things are bad. The only problem with saying, well, the Book of Judges is helping us look forward to a better king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in David or-
David: Right
Seth: ... Saul or whoever, is that, well, one, within the Book of Judges itself, they take a dim view of kingship. There's this whole extended parable by a prophet named Jotham who basically says, "Are you sure you want a king? When you have a king, he's gonna rule over you, and he's gonna make things bad for you," followed by the fact that y- we kind of see disobedience. Wanting a king in 1 Samuel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is seen as disobedience.
David: Right.
Seth: In addition to the fact that when you read 1 and 2 Kings, most of the kings do what's right in their own eyes.
David: Is, and it's repeated there.
Seth: It's the same phrase-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is repeated, and they do the same thing. So it's like it can't just be hope in another king or, like, a defending, defending the monarchy. I think something else is going on-
David: Okay
Seth: ... besides that. Does that make sense?
David: It does. I mean, I think that, um, just, I think that a hope in a spirit-filled leader who saves us from evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who lives among us and rules us and brings peace to the kingdom could s- is still a valid hope of the Book of Judges-
Seth: It is
David: ... regardless of if it's met or not by the monarchy of Israel-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that follows. So I, I don't think those are in competition.
Seth: They're not in competition-
David: Okay
Seth: ... with e- each other. But I think, so I think the way that you're supposed to read the phrase, "There is no king in Israel," is that God is no longer king in Israel. Like g-God is not the king.
David: Oh, that's harsh.
Seth: It is, it is harsh, but it's... So what happens after, um, Samson is and... Well, through the Samson narrative is God's not really ever mentioned. There's like this silence of God that pervades the last half of the book of Joshua, uh, Judges where, um, except for some brief moments where the Holy Spirit seems to descend on Samson to, like, empower his revenge, [laughs] God is not anointing any kings anymore. He... Or not, not anointing or calling or raising up any deliverers anymore.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's, like, oddly silent, and I think it's supposed to prove to the fact that God has lifted His hands off the nation of Israel, and He's allowing their, what's right in their own eyes to rule them.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so the fact that you have wha- this is the increasing Canaanization of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What is the, what is the ultimate religion of Canaan? I do what I want.
David: Mm.
Seth: I do whatever's right in my own eyes.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: Who is God? God is me.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so, like, that, I think, kind of personifies in a really real way what's happening. Like, there is no king in Israel, and God has given Israel over to its own desires, which is what Romans 1 says is what happens in the wrath of God and the judgment of God against sin. He hands us to our own desires.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what happens when we become king? Nothing good.
David: [laughs] Nothing good.
Seth: Nothing good.
David: I think, I think the biblical evidence corroborates your thesis a bit, um, because right after, um, you know, if you're going chronologically-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, we, we obviously have, canonically have Ruth next during the time of the Judges.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Uh, but she doesn't really speak to the leadership or what's going on or anything like that. But in 1 Samuel, which would chronologically follow-
Seth: Yep
David: ... the next step in Israel's history, um, 1 Samuel 3, the beginning of the book, "The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. In those days, the word of the Lord was rare. There were not many visions." It seemed like the king-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... had withdrawn.
Seth: Yep.
David: So I'm just like-
Seth: Yep, I think... Yes
David: ... I think that's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now it's like, but with... But then Samuel comes in, and he's filled with the Spirit, and he's like another deliverer finally.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then that leads to the monarchy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with Saul and then obviously p-
Seth: King
David: ... you know, ultimately King David.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I follow that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I follow that.
Seth: So-
David: So we're supposed to... But we're-
Seth: You're-
David: We are supposed to long for a king.
Seth: You're supposed to long for a king.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But I also think it's implicit within the Book of Judges that that king cannot be human, that that king must be God.
David: Just because they're always, they always have a flaw?
Seth: It's, they always have a flaw.
David: Or they don't do the job perfectly.
Seth: They don't do the job perfectly, and the judges, um, yeah. And I think just-
David: Oh. [laughs] I, I know why it can't be human. The problem in the Book of Judges is no matter how good the judge, they all die.
Seth: And they all die, yeah.
David: They all die, and that's when things go bad-
Seth: Right
David: ... is they die. [laughs]
Seth: So I think what you're hoping... It's like, so, like, but that phrase makes me wanna hope for, like, a spirit-filled man-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to lead God's people. Exactly right.
David: Yeah. Yes.
Seth: But that spirit-filled man also has to be God-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in order to lead the people in such a way to solve the initial problem. And if the initial problem is if you can't remain holy and following God's commands until after the person dies, you actually need a leader to lead beyond death so that our obedience never ends.
David: Yes.
Seth: So maybe say that one more time back 'cause I, I'm afraid that I said that confusingly.
David: Oh, it's so good. Um, so yes. Uh, I, I'll, I'll say-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I'll say it back. Um, so if the, if one of the key problems with, uh, human judges-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is that no matter how good they are, and none of them are very good, uh, they die.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then we're left again needing another king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, the lineage ends.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We need a, a-
Seth: And, oh, before you keep going-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in that moment, what are we told over and over again? Like, while the judge reigns, there is a period of obedience in Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: There's a fidelity to Yahweh and His commands and rule following.
David: During their life.
Seth: During their life, but once the ruler dies-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that obedience collapses-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and disobedience comes back.
David: Yes. Exactly right.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so we need a king who is more than man, who can lead beyond their hu- their finite humanity-
Seth: Mm
David: ... by leading eternally but still among us. That, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's the problem.
Seth: Right.
David: Because the judge, the only person in, in Israel who's called the judge in this book is Yahweh, but the problem is He's not really living with the people. That's the whole thing they're trying to do in this project of the conquest. And so how do we have a physical, boots on the ground, capital J judge who's fulfilling this role perfectly and yet who's not gonna just die and leave us, and we're gonna fall back into our own sins and do what's right in our own eyes again?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't know what the answer is. Oh, wait. Yes, I do. [laughs]
Seth: Oh, wait a second. Yeah, I... The Book of Judges help, uh, makes us hope for Jesus.
David: Yeah, big time.
Seth: It makes us hope for a leader who will be filled with the Spirit-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who leads his people not simply to obey like him for his lifespan but to fill the people themselves with the same spirit he's filled with so they can obey for eternity.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, what are we... Like, one of the, the promises of the new creation is that there will be no sin anymore.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we will no longer want wrong things.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We will no longer do w- uh, what, what, uh... It's like we won't, we will no longer do what's right, evil in the Lord's eyes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because everything that seems right to our eyes will be right to God's eyes.
David: Yes, because we'll be given new eyes.
Seth: We'll be given new eyes and new hearts-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and new ears, and we will obey because we're following in the footsteps of a new leadership.
David: Yes, and that, and that's happening now. I think, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, so, like, one of the hopes, I think, that Judges extends to us today is that, um, uh, like, we were, we were dependent upon this one spirit-filled leader.To, to like be, like to fulfill the role of Yahweh among us and our righteousness was tied up in his.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the good news with Jesus is he's a spirit-filled leader in whom our righteousness is tied up, who also then gives us that same Holy Spirit that empowered the judges.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's now given to every single believer to then, as long as they live, to be sustained, uh, to be sanctified, to persevere, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to like, uh, into eternity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and that's just such good news-
Seth: Right
David: ... that like the, the thing that was only happening once in a while to one person is now happening eternally for all believers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... nation of the church is a nation of spirit-filled people able to follow God and root out evil in the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's good.
Seth: Uh, Jesus, another way to say this, Jesus breaks the cycle.
David: Yes.
Seth: If the, if the cycle of Judges is a downward spiral of disobedience followed by punishment, followed by mercy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... followed by more disobedience-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... followed by more punishment, followed by more mercy-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, that's the downward spi- spiral. Jesus ends the downward spiral.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He comes in with a final act of mercy that kind of shatters the, shatters it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he also comes in with a final act of judgment and shatters it.
David: Yep.
Seth: There's one moment of judgment and mercy on the cross-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that undoes the endless cycle of always getting worse and becoming more and more like the world-
David: Yes
Seth: ... provided we enter into his kingdom.
David: That's right.
Seth: Provided he is our king.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Otherwise, we'll look just like the rest of the world.
David: Yeah. And the reason why he breaks the cycle is, yes, absolutely, because the judgment of the judges came against the judge instead of us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, and then he fills us with the spirit of the judges to actually live in accordance with Yahweh ourselves, but also because at that judge's death, he r- he raised.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He didn't stay dead.
Seth: He didn't die. [laughs]
David: And so Jesus is the judge, the deliverer, the king who rules forever-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that we can be a kingdom of obedience-
Seth: And think, well, even think-
David: ... forever
Seth: ... yeah, and think even about death as a territory. So like-
David: Yes, there was this po- there's a pocket of-
Seth: The ju-
David: ... occupied territory still in the world-
Seth: Yeah, but-
David: ... that Jesus had to conquer
Seth: ... judges, every new judge delivered Israel from the oppressors and then also took land back.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus delivers us from the oppressor, and then he extends the kingdom that we can live in beyond this life-
David: Through the grave
Seth: ... and into the next.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he's taking new territory-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for those who trust in his kingship.
David: The enemy's last bastion that was guarded by more than fortified walls and iron chariots and whatever other-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... technological advances of the Canaanite military, [laughs] like, was the grave. No one could beat it.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And Jesus, like the ultimate judge, did more than Samson when he had super long hair.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he went in like a strong man and broke the bonds of death.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that's amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I love that. Wow. Okay. Uh, that was my no king in Israel-
Seth: That was, yeah. [laughs]
David: ... in bright and, bright and Rhode Eyes question.
Seth: So again, I just wanna-
David: Yep
Seth: ... double down here. So I think the phrase there's no king in Israel is really hard to understand without Jesus.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: I think, like, it's easy to understand the book of Judges as, like, a polemic or as an argument for why Israel needs a king.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I just think that's a deficient view of, well, the, the evidence the book of Judges gives us, the book of Kings gives us, and the Bible gives us. If the king's another human, it's not gonna work.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't think... The, the king is God.
David: Yes.
Seth: And God becomes man.
David: Yes. And I think it's continuing the Bible's job of passing the ball forward from the promise, um, of Genesis 3:15, that God would, like, send-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a snake crusher-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to, to finally judge sin and death.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And we were told it would be through Eve's line. So all through Genesis, we're following a genealogy, and we're like, "Oh, there's the chosen line. There's the chosen line."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And that's a people. Okay, this is the chosen people."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Okay, now there's gonna be a chosen king and deliverer. Okay." And then it's like, well, there's no king. Okay, so let's go to the kings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and let's find it there. Oh, they all suck, too.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Uh, maybe there'll be a prophet that raises up and fi- oh, nope, they didn't.
Seth: Nope.
David: No one listened. And they, they were just waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting, and Jesus comes, and the wait is over. [gentle music] Okay, so my list of questions after reading the book of Judges continues. [laughs]
Seth: Continue them.
David: Um, so there, o- one, one thing, there's this, there's this line here. Let me, let me pull it up real quick. Uh, Judges 10:16. Judges 10:16, um, the people are, again, being given over to the nations. It's all terrible. They're being oppressed. Um, and the Israelites repent. They, they find this place of utter desperation, and they cry out for deliverance, and they, they, they admit it. They say, "We have sinned, so Yahweh, do with us whatever you think is best, but please rescue us now." And then we hear that they got rid of their foreign gods, which they were supposed to do, and they served Yahweh. And then I heard this thing about God, and it says, "And he could not bear Israel's misery any longer."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, God had so much compassion on Israel that no matter what they did, again and again and again, until the very end of Judges, but he brings another deliverer back in Samuel, like, and all throughout all the Old Testament. We just see the long-suffering and mercy of God, where even though we spit in his face, worship false gods, deny him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he cannot bear our misery.
Seth: It's good news.
David: It's such good news [laughs] that we have such a good God.
Seth: But I don't know if that's what that's supposed to tell us.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: I know.
David: Well, okay. Yeah
Seth: ... because in this story-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... right af- this is the first time, one of the first times God breaks His cycle-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... of not raising up another deliverer.
David: 'Cause it's Jephthah next, isn't it?
Seth: It's Jephthah next.
David: Dang it.
Seth: So, so the, uh, so they put away their foreign gods from among them and they served the Lord and God became impatient over the misery of Israel, so much so that He did not raise up a deliverer.
David: Oh, so this is, um, this is pulling on language from Genesis 6 and the flood.
Seth: Yes.
David: How much longer must I bear with-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I can't put up, I can't be miserable with you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... commiserate with-
Seth: Yeah. So, like this-
David: Oh, no
Seth: ... so this is, this is the opposite [laughs] of what you wanted to say.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it's not-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's-
David: My, my point's still valid because God continually shows mercy throughout the book.
Seth: Yes.
David: But-
Seth: One of the-
David: ... I don't get this sweet little verse
Seth: ... you don't get this sweet little verse because it's like Israel's repenting-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but it's superficial.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then God knows that, so He fails to send, to, it's not a, a legitimate cry for mercy.
David: Right.
Seth: So God does not send a deliverer. So, but your point does still stand-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because as, because this is a really dark point in Israel's history.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Israel repents and God says, "I don't believe you."
David: Oof.
Seth: It's so, it's like, it's a real, it's like-
David: Oof
Seth: ... and He refuses to save them from their idolatry.
David: Right.
Seth: And so it's this really dark moment. Like, God's judgment is getting harsher and more, it's, it's leading them into increasing darkness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and hopelessness and misery. But even then, God still provides glimpses of mercy.
David: Yeah, Jephthah is successful in battle.
Seth: Yes. He, like, he, there are enemies he defeats.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God still comes in-
David: Right
Seth: ... and still does stuff for Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: So what, your point is legitimate-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because as the darkness of Judges gets darker, the light of God's mercy gets brighter.
David: Right, by comparison.
Seth: By comparison.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because if it's that dark that God would say, "I'm not gonna rescue you anymore-
David: "I don't believe your repentance"
Seth: ... I don't believe your repentance," and then yet He still rescues-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... after 400 years-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the same thing, it only highlights the fact that God will not abandon His people.
David: Right. I mean, it's, uh, that's, uh, that's present in the story of Samson.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: At the very end of his life, he has thrown away everything that God gave him. He has-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he has done a terrible job finishing up his time as a judge. He has been given over to the Canaanites. He's had his hair chopped off, his eyes gouged out. Now he's playing a court jester i, in the, in the court of the Canaanites, and he prays. He said, "God, one last time."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Let me, give me my strength back."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God does.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's merciful.
Seth: He's merciful to give him his strength, even as he's judging both Samson and the Philistines.
David: Yes, he judges himself in that moment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, yeah, so, like, God's mercy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the darker the Book of Judges gets-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the brighter God's mercy should also get.
David: Yes.
Seth: So that's, like, something to keep in mind as you read Judges and get lost in just the depravity of it all.
David: Yeah. Anytime you see God break through, be like, man, He's kind. [laughs]
Seth: He's so kind.
David: So what I wanted to talk about alongside with this fact that God continues to deliver-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... continues to provide, is He does, maybe not in this instance [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but He does respond to cries for deliverance over and over and over again.
Seth: Yeah, and He will in Saul. So we should-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we have already named it once, but, like, the end of the Judges narrative actually ends with the judge, uh, not Saul, the Samuel.
David: Samuel.
Seth: Judge Samuel, which comes in the book of 1 Samuel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's a godly man who's filled with the Spirit, who actually does not what any of these guys do-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but, like, does what Joshua is supposed to do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he's a good man, and God sends him after the depravity of, like, mutilating a concubine-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and, like, doing all the crazy stuff that happens-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at the end of the Book of Judges. God's still merciful.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I, I'm just amazed at, um, God's willingness to respond to a depraved person's cry for help. Like, who just doesn't deserve it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there's n- there's no moral value to a cry for help. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the only thing that is good in it is that you realize you need help.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, but that's not necessarily a morally deserting thing.
Seth: Right.
David: And so I just, I love that picture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of God as He who responds to the cries of those who don't deserve response because it is such a great picture.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I just see myself in the Book of Judges 'cause, like, map your own story onto this book if you want to and see, don't you do these things, too?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Don't you have cycles of sinful dependence where you spiral out of control, and then oh, and then you pick yourself back up, and you feel like you are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... empowered by the Spirit to stop sinning, and you root out some sin in your life, only to lose ground and fall into-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a worse place?
Seth: Or, like, even the way that the Lord empowered you ends up being the way that you fall for a new time. It's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God gives you, like, a whole bunch of leadership ability, and you get a position of leadership, and it's awesome, and then you get fired.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like-
David: Right. Yeah. And so I'm just amazed at God knows my heart and has been with me through so many sins and so many failings and so much pride and, you know, and yet the fact that when I called out to Him and said, "Save me," like, I put my faith in my final deliverer, Jesus, He listened-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and actually said, "Okay."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "I will judge him instead of you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that is just such a kindness, and I just think seeing the mercy of God shine through the darkness of Judges builds my faith in that when I called out to Jesus for help, He said yes. Uh, it just builds my faith.
Seth: It's good. It's good, and I think that also cuts not just for us as individuals, but for us as, like, members of corporate bodies. Um, so it's like we're not just-Individuals in, who are acting with God one-on-one. We also exist in churches, in institutions, in businesses, in places-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who are led by godly or not so godly leaders.
David: Right.
Seth: And so one of the other things that I've been meditating on throughout this whole thing is just the number of church leaders who have fallen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Who seem to be doing good things from God, who seem to be filled with the Spirit. Thousands of people are coming to faith in Jesus, and I'm sure we have listeners who, like, had, were radically transformed by the ministry of someone, only for them to sleep with their secretary-
David: Yes
Seth: ... or to say that they don't believe in God anymore-
David: Right
Seth: ... and it was all fake, and that they were deceived for their whole childhood and for their whole adult life, and they didn't believe a word that they said to you. And you're in that moment saying, "Well, what, what does that matter for me? Like, is my faith invalidated? Does God care about me anymore? Was all that fake? Does God even care anymore?" The Book of Judges is also for you.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not just for people as individuals, but for people as individuals under poor leadership-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or failed leadership-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or leadership that-
David: People who've been involved in corporate failure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the good news for people who are watching leaders fall-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and wondering if everything they've experienced is false or wrong or an excuse to just do whatever you want, 'cause I think we see a lot of that. Like, it's like because of the harm in the church, because of the hypocrisy of the church, because of the sex scandals-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... within the church, that justifies us leaving the church.
David: Right.
Seth: It proves the well is poisoned. It proves God's not on our side. It proves maybe God doesn't exist. Like, that's the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that's the pool, and that's the pool of the Book of Judges.
David: Right.
Seth: These leaders fail, and what does Israel do? God must not exist.
David: Right.
Seth: But that's the test.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's the test. Is God still in control when a lot of our leaders are, have, have sex scandals?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is God still in control when our leaders are committing suicide?
David: Is God still king?
Seth: Is he still king?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the test is saying yes.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Um, and the good news for us, who are trapped in that cycle, is that unlike Israel, who couldn't see past the next leader-
David: Right
Seth: ... we can always look back to one.
David: Yes.
Seth: We can always look back to a king who said no to his own desires, who didn't count ambition or sexuality as something to be grasped, who said no to all those things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who died at the will of his father, God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... obedient to his commands, and now rules in power forever.
David: Right.
Seth: We have a king, regardless if our kings fail.
David: That's right. Regardless if our pastors fail, our favorite author's failings, anything, we have a king who never fails-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who never sins, who never disappoints, who never breaks his promise-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who never falls from power-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who never fails to be perfectly operating in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the power of God.
Seth: So for those of you who are, like, wondering, well, is all the abuse in the church, is all the misogyny in the church reasons to abandon it, our, the Book of Judges-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and I think our challenge would be to you is, like, do not judge the leadership of God by its leaders.
David: Yep.
Seth: Judge the leadership of God by Jesus Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when you see that, trust in that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Believe in that kingship.
David: Yep. Because that's what you see in, in Judges. What you see in Judges is God acting correctly-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and rightly. You see him, when evil crops up, God judges it. That's what we want our leaders to do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And whenever, and whenever people are beyond-
Seth: We-
David: ... and when people-
Seth: Yes
David: ... are beyond saving, he is gracious.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, so we see him being gracious whenever we want him to be, and we see him judging evil whenever we would cry out for justice.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, so, like, don't, don't only look to the failures of the earthly judges. Look to the success of the only person in the book who's named judge.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He judges Israel and the nations rightly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's doing it today in the person of Jesus, who's reigning on a throne forever, and he will come. A day has been appointed in Jesus when he will judge the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there is a judge coming, too. Like, it's just, and it's good. It's very, very good. Um, what you just said I think is really good, and it makes me think of one last paradigm that I think the Book of Judges as a whole helps us set up, and that is that i- in a sense, we, we still, I think, I think the, the land of Canaan, the conquest, uh, in Joshua, the failures of Judges, is meant to build our spiritual imagination for the world that we live in now, in, in, in what theologians call the already and the not yet. That we, yes, we are already in the Kingdom of God, but we're not yet in it fully, because there are still huge pockets of enemy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... enemy territory-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all around us.
Seth: This, uh, the cycle isn't broken everywhere yet.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's meant to be broken in us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we're meant to be spirit-filled deliverers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... taking good news to the world.
Seth: Yep.
David: We're meant to take back enemy ter- enemy territory-
Seth: We-
David: ... here.
Seth: Yeah. The way that Jesus broke the cycle for us, we're meant to walk into other people's cycle of depravity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and break it for them. By our own sacrifice, we show them the sacrifice of Christ and bring them out of their slavery to becoming just like the world around them.
David: That's right. And so that's a beautiful picture of, like, view yourself as one of the judges, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause you've been filled with the Spirit and given the same responsibility, so do it. The other thing that I think is helpful for our spiritual imagination is, um, is just with, like, kind of, like, the problem of evil, you know? Or, like, the problem or the fears of spiritual warfare. Or, like, why does God let Satan continue to prowl like a roaring lion, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, why do we live in a world that has evil in it still? And I think it goes back to what we said at the beginning, which is the thesis statement for the book of i- of, of Judges, which is, like, this is a test-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to see whether or not we will keep the ways of the Lord.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like, why is there still a tempter, you know? Like, why-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... why is there still evil institutions? Why is Canaan still here? It's because God wants to see if, in the face of those things, that we will remain faithful to him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's a test. We're still in the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's still two trees-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for us to choose from.
Seth: It's like, what? It's like, and because of Jesus, it's easier to pass the test.
David: Because w- he's in us.
Seth: He's in us.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Or even, like, for the non-believer, it's easier-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... because we-
David: We've seen someone do it
Seth: ... we've seen someone do it. We don't measure God's compassion. Uh, we measure God's compassion by the cross-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and his power by the resurrection, not by what we see around us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's better. [laughs]
David: That's better.
Seth: It's just good, yeah.
David: It is good. Well, anything else?
Seth: I, that's it.
David: Okay. I'm good.
Seth: We're good.
David: I'm, I'm excited to go through the rest of this book. I really am.
Seth: It's a fun book. And we didn't even talk about this, but, like, it's one of the most ironic books I've read in scripture.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's, like, not just irony, but, like, parody-
David: And satire
Seth: ... and satire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like God, or the author, is, like, making fun of Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and their stupidity.
David: Which that'll get highlighted as we dive-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into specific stories.
Seth: Yeah. That'll be really fun.
David: So that'll be really good.
Seth: I'm just excited for that.
David: Well, awesome. Guys, thank you for listening so much. Uh, we hope it's been encouraging and helpful for you. It's definitely been helpful for me. So we, uh, we will see you next week. And, uh, man, go read Judges. Have fun with that.
Seth: Yeah. [upbeat music]
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