Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: Excellent.
David: Excellent.
Seth: Excellent.
David: Exemplary?
Seth: Exemplary.
David: Yes.
Seth: I, uh, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: COVID free since 2020. [laughs] So-
David: COVID free since '03. [laughs]
Seth: Since '03.
David: Uh, yeah, so, uh, we're in the middle of filming right now.
Seth: We are.
David: Yeah, we just filmed Esther yesterday. We just finished filming Esther, and we start filming, um, Lamentations introduction-
Seth: Yep
David: ... tomorrow, and this is-
Seth: This is our last new podcast for the year.
David: Yes.
Seth: Next week, we will release, uh, we're gonna rebroadcast the Book of Genesis.
David: Yeah, the first book of the Bible. We feel like-
Seth: The first book of the Bible
David: ... a lot of people probably missed it because-
Seth: And-
David: ... it was really so early
Seth: ... we really liked it.
David: It's really foundational to understanding the rest of the Bible.
Seth: It is, and it's class- it's vintage Seth and David.
David: Vintage. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Mwa. 2018 was a-
Seth: 2018 was so good
David: ... great year. [laughs] That's so fun.
Seth: Um, so if you already listened to it, listen to it again or not.
David: Yeah. Take a break.
Seth: Uh, take a break.
David: No, don't take a break.
Seth: Take all that time to leave us a great review.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Otherwise, uh, you should totally listen, uh, and enjoy the break, and we'll be back with Hosea in January.
David: Yeah, that's gonna be awesome. Uh, so but anyway, today, though, uh, we're in Philippians, and I said all of that about filming and everything to say this, which is today is, is an, is an anomaly for me because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you have studied Philippians a little bit more-
Seth: Yes
David: ... than I have.
Seth: It's true.
David: Because I've been directing on-
Seth: Directing
David: ... [laughs] on film set. And so Seth just told me, "Just come on in. Uh, h- you know, h- read it, you know, re- read it a few times, and, you know, grab a, grab a commentary or two, and just kind of pick at it, but-
Seth: I will try
David: ... come in with questions."
Seth: I will attempt to be a expert.
David: [laughs] Yes, Seth the expert.
Seth: I'll-
David: Which I, I always see you that way. [laughs]
Seth: I very rarely see myself that way, so I appreciate the affirmation.
David: Yes.
Seth: But-
David: So we're in Philippians.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, if you were to say why I should be extremely excited about this conversation about Philippians, uh, other than the fact that it's inspired Word of God and the Bible revealing-
Seth: God breathed
David: ... to us the glory of Jesus, um, S- specifically Philippians, why should I care today?
Seth: Because, uh, as a great counselor once said, [laughs] um-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... all of us suffer some of the time.
David: Mm.
Seth: And some of us suffer all the time. And what Philippians tells us is that when we share in Christ's sufferings, we will also share in His resurrection.
David: Mm, yeah.
Seth: Uh, and that's kind of like he, Paul says it pretty much exactly those words in Philippians chapter 2, and most of the letter is him expounding on different ways that that truth, when we share in Christ's sufferings, we also share in His resurrection, should impact not just our relationship with suffering-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but our relationship with each other, our relationships with, uh, the, the people we are in at church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, and how it just should transform the way that we even view our lives and the hostility we experience around us.
David: Okay, interesting. Yeah, when I read Philippians, like, having read it a few times today even, uh, I wasn't thinking like, "Man, this book just really addresses suffering head-on," you know? Like-
Seth: Yeah. Uh
David: ... I would think of Job or even, like, first and second Thessalonians.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, uh, because it's such a happy book.
Seth: It is a happy book.
David: It's a very optimistic, happy book.
Seth: The word rejoicing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or joy appears 16 times.
David: My goodness.
Seth: And doesn't-
David: Isn't this the epistle of joy?
Seth: S- some people call it that.
David: Some, yeah, right.
Seth: Uh, he, the word glad is used a couple times.
David: Glad.
Seth: It's a happy book. It's a happy book. It's a ha- Paul, I, I even wrote in my, in, in my notes, "Paul is happy." [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's a, man, that's deep.
Seth: That's deep. [laughs]
David: That's deep work.
Seth: Uh, and in fact, like, it was joy that motivated Paul to write this letter in the first place.
David: Oh, okay. [laughs]
Seth: So the, the, the, the Philippian, uh-
David: So he's not mad in this- [laughs]
Seth: He's not mad in this scenario, unlike Galatians, which is all heat from the very beginning. Philippians, Paul's in jail.
David: Oh, yes, right.
Seth: So important context.
David: Is this Roman imprisonment jail time? Oh, it has to be because at the end of the letter he says that some of he, Caesar's household has become to believe-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because of his imprisonment.
Seth: Yes.
David: So yeah, he's in Rome-
Seth: He's in Rome
David: ... under house arrest.
Seth: There's a, a couple of different references to Rome in Philippians.
David: Right. Okay.
Seth: So, uh, again, like Ephesians and, uh, Colossians, a lot of people assume these three were written around the same time.
David: Right. These are known as the prison epistles.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and what was your question? Oh, why is it joy?
David: Why joy?
Seth: Why, well, so he's in prison.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the Philippians send Paul a gift.
David: Oh, like a, like a popcorn bucket? [laughs]
Seth: Like a popcorn bucket with a whole bunch of, like-
David: With the three different-
Seth: ... razor blades in it.
David: What? [laughs]
Seth: So he can, he can get out-
David: He can escape from prison
Seth: ... escape from prison. [laughs]
David: That got dark.
Seth: No, no, escape from prison.
David: Oh, to escape. Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, no, they, they send a, a, a gi- [laughs] a gift. Uh, it could've been money. It could've been food.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: We don't know what it was.
David: Books.
Seth: Uh, books-
David: Scrolls
Seth: ... parchment, scrolls, whatever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And a man named Epaphroditus, a man from their church, went to go deliver it to him.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Paul even says that joy is the reason he wrote it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because whenever Epaphroditus comes and visits him, he says in chapter 4 verse 10, "I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now, at length, you have revived your concern for me."
David: Revived your concern. [laughs]
Seth: So he, he's like, he's, like, sitting in prison wondering if anybody has, like, remembered him, and then the Philippians not only send gifts-But a man-
David: Mm
Seth: ... from the Philippian church to come and minister to him.
David: Right, which is, like, classic Philippian move, right? They've been a supporter of Paul from the beginning.
Seth: Yep. It says that he- they were some- "From the beginning of the gospel"-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the way it says it in chapter three.
David: Yeah, they were some of his first financial supporters as a-
Seth: Mm
David: ... missionary.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he even references them in 2 Corinthians as the exemplar of-
Seth: Of generosity
David: ... of generosity for the Corinthian church to follow suit.
Seth: Yes.
David: Even though they are traditionally more of- more impoverished of a church-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they are giving more than an- than rich churches are.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, so he loves the Philippians.
Seth: So he loves the Phili- he has a long, long, long-standing relationship with them. He apparently knows everybody there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, you know, he's writing to Eu- Euodia.
David: Euodia.
Seth: Euodia.
David: We had to look up the pronunciation of this.
Seth: Uh, and Syntyche.
David: Yep.
Seth: He knows the people there, has a deep affection for them. He- o- one time he uses the word yearn. "I yearn for you."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, if you're gonna get anything away besides joy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's, like, joy occasions the letter. He's so excited that the Philippians remembered him, but he also has a deep personal connection with these people.
David: Yeah, he loves these people.
Seth: He just loves them.
David: Yeah, absolutely.
Seth: Been with them s- from the beginning.
David: And so when, uh, where- where- we first read about, um, the Philippian church and its founding really in Acts 16, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, so, like, w- really briefly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what happens in Acts 16?
Seth: [laughs]
David: Who are some of the people that are in this church? What was its story of, of origin, that kind of thing?
Seth: Uh, Acts 16 is, like, one of the most famous stories in the Bible.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's when the, the jail that Paul and Sil- Paul, Timothy, and Silas, or Paul and Silas are in prison.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then there's an earthquake-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the doors bust open.
David: Yep.
Seth: And, uh, the Philippian jailer wants to kill himself because all the pr- he thinks all the prisoners have escaped.
David: And he's gonna be killed the next morning anyway.
Seth: He's gonna be k- you're gonna get killed the morn- the next morning anyway, and Paul's like, "No, no, don't kill yourself. Let me tell you the gospel"
David: [laughs]
Seth: And he gets saved. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's a big deal.
David: Yes.
Seth: And this is a, it's a classic children's church story.
David: It is.
Seth: And it's like-
David: Yeah, I think I've done a VBS skit where, like-
Seth: Everybody. Who hasn't?
David: Yes, who hasn't been the-
Seth: Who-
David: ... Philippian jailer?
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, so there's him.
Seth: So yeah, there's him, so this crazy-
David: And his family
Seth: ... and his whole family.
David: Yep.
Seth: We also have Lydia. She, or the woman from Lydia.
David: Right.
Seth: She's an Asian businesswoman who is one of the first, uh, convert in Philippi.
David: Wow.
Seth: Um, and then you also have, uh, the reason why they're, Paul and Silas-
David: In prison
Seth: ... are in jail is because there was a slave girl-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who had been possessed by a demon.
David: That, like, let her tell the future?
Seth: That allowed her-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to tell the future. Paul cast the demon out-
David: Right
Seth: ... so she can't tell the future anymore apparently. [laughs]
David: Right, and her, like, masters who were selling this gift of hers-
Seth: Yep, were exploiting her
David: ... get really mad.
Seth: Yeah, the, the people who were exploiting the w- young girl get mad and then start a riot and get-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Paul thrown in prison.
David: Right.
Seth: And these, and we are never told that that little girl, uh-
David: Becomes a Christian
Seth: ... becomes a Christian.
David: That's true.
Seth: But these are the three people that are mentioned at the founding of the Philippian church.
David: Yes.
Seth: So Paul has some history.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His receipts [laughs] with these people.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's, like, pretty fun stuff. Earthquake, Philippian jailer about to commit suicide.
David: Exor- or, uh, exorcism.
Seth: An Asian businesswoman selling purple all over the place is funding the house church movement, and then you got an exorcism. I was like, this is, this is a pretty sweet church. [laughs] This is exciting.
David: Here in Oklahoma, we just, someone decides to build a church and, you know. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, it's like, there's some guy who has a truck and a couple of hand saws. That's what happens.
David: That's what happens.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay, so Paul has a history with these people. He loves them. They've been with him from the beginning. They had some really big moves of God that started it. They've been generous towards him, and then now he's in Rome, in prison, away from them, and they send him a g- a gift basket-
Seth: Yep
David: ... with nifty gifties.
Seth: Nifty gifties.
David: And he is overjoyed because they remembered him, and he sends them this epistle of joy.
Seth: Yes, that's exactly right.
David: To say, "Thank you. I love you, too. I remember you." Uh, and, like, a- and he ends up talking a lot about his chains.
Seth: He does. K- kinda uniquely among the letters that he sends, he talks a lot about the fact that he is imprisoned.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So there cou- could be a couple reasons for that. One, it's like, he deeply, deeply knows these people, and they're so concerned for him in prison that they send him somebody to minister to him in prison.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: So it makes sense that he's gonna talk about the fact that he's in prison, what that experience is like-
David: Yeah, I wonder-
Seth: ... and how he has hope in it
David: ... I wonder what Epaphroditus, like, what his, like, demeanor was. Like, "Oh, poor Paul."
Seth: Poor Paul.
David: "Are you okay? We've heard horror stories." Like, are he- he's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "I'm fine."
Seth: I'm fine. [laughs]
David: But, like, it's not that, like, "Oh, prison's cushy." That's not his answer. It's, "I'm fine because in prison, you think I'm in prison, but actually I'm in Christ."
Seth: Yes.
David: And that's his, that's, like, a huge point for Paul here, right?
Seth: Yeah. Uh, ver- chapter one, verse 12.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "I want you to know," so this is the start of his letter properly.
David: Yes, okay.
Seth: "I want you to know, here's... What do you think about me in prison? Here's what I want you to know. Brothers, what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard," that's another reference to Rome-
David: Yes
Seth: ... "and to all the rest of my, my imprisonment is for Christ."
David: Right.
Seth: "And most of the brothers have become confident in the Lord because of my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak without fear."
David: Oh, okay. Oh, wait, so that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So they, you know, i- if the founder of your world-changing religion, not founder, but, like, the person who brings it to you, you know, who's, like, leading this big house church movement in Macedonia where you live, you find out that he's in prison and that things are going really badly, you're like, "Oh, no, what's gonna happen to the movement?"
Seth: What's gonna happen to us?
David: Like, what's gonna happen to us? Was he actually... Wa- was, was what he said actually true? You know, like, why is he in prison? You know, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you think the whole, like, movement that started with Paul is now coming crumbling down. He's like, "No, it's actually going further and wider and deeper-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I'm in prison."
Seth: Right. Did you, did you have any access to imperial guards?
David: Right.
Seth: I do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And now they know about Jesus. [laughs]
David: What's interesting, too, is you know that the story of the Philippian jailer, like, went crazy in the early house church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "Remember that story-How God used imprisonment to further the gospel
Seth: That's cool.
David: That's your-
Seth: Right
David: ... story, Ben, or whatever his name was. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah.
David: Ben, just gonna-
Seth: Ben, the-
David: The Ben, the Philippian jailer
Seth: [laughs]
David: And he's like, "The same thing's happening. The guards, whom you were, Ben-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... are also learning the gospel just like you did."
Seth: Get it together, Ben. [laughs]
David: Ben. [laughs] His name's Ben now.
Seth: His name's Ben now.
David: [laughs] But, you know, I, I think it's-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's the same thing. He's like, "What happened in Philippi is happening in Rome."
Seth: Yep.
David: That's cool.
Seth: That's exactly right. And then he goes on and he says, "I will rejoice in this."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Yes, I will rejoice, because I know-"
David: Which, which weren't they rejoicing in the prison? They were singing.
Seth: They were singing hymns.
David: They were singing hymns.
Seth: Okay, anyway.
David: So, yeah, connection-
Seth: We're seeing even the word joy is used in Acts 16
David: 16.
Seth: He talks about the joy-
David: Which-
Seth: ... that he has. Yeah. And then he said, he gives them another reason, "I will rejoice in all this," uh, verse 19.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Because I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, this will turn out for my deliverance."
David: Mm.
Seth: So he kn- he is confident that his sufferings will end in deliverance.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's his hope.
David: It's... Yeah, but then in the next verse he says, "And that deliverance will, whether that be by life or by death."
Seth: Yeah. He's like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... "Well, either way it's deliverance, but..."
David: Yeah, which is so interesting. He's like, "I don't mean that I'm definitely getting out of jail alive." He means, "I will be delivered."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Maybe that'll be while I'm alive, but even if I die-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'll still be delivered."
Seth: This comes right up to the edge. One of the most famous verses in Philippians is, "For me to live is Christ, but to die is gain."
David: So if I go on living here in prison, that's a Christ, that, that is me being with Christ in His suffering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if I die, that's a big profit for me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I get to be with Christ. Not o- not only will I be in Christ, [laughs] I'll be with Christ.
Seth: Another way to say it is Paul doesn't imagine his sufferings in prison-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and his potential martyrdom as a sacrifice.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: His staying alive to serve others is.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, "It'd actually be better for me to go and be with Jesus forever."
David: Right. I'd rather be martyred. That's not a sacrifice.
Seth: That's not a sacrifice. I get so much, something far more. It's the sacrifice is to stay here-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in prison and-
David: Keep living
Seth: ... and keep doing this thing that I've been doing.
David: Mm.
Seth: But that would be Christ to me.
David: Mm.
Seth: I would get to be Christ-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to you and to others-
David: Right
Seth: ... by staying in my imprisonment. So that's why I can rejoice in my sufferings, because neither death nor life scares me right now.
David: Right.
Seth: Ever.
David: Okay. So, uh, I really, with what you just said, wanna jump ahead to-
Seth: Okay
David: ... Philippians 2 and the Christ hymn.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, can I do...
Seth: Yes.
David: Can we do that?
Seth: I... Yes, yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. So you, you were saying like, "I want to, I get to be Christ if I keep living."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then he goes, "Now let me, what does that mean to be Christ?" And he gives this little preface at the top of, of chapter 2, which makes you feel like there is some kind of internal drama going on in the Philippian church, because he's seen... He, he says, like, "If you have any encouragement from me or any participation in the, uh, uh, the Spirit," he, and he just begs them to be of one mind.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which means they might not be of one mind. They, they might-
Seth: Complete his joy-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... by being of one mind.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like, "Be of one mind. Hey, don't only look over, after your own interests, but look to the interests of others." So apparently people are being selfish in Philippi.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so he's like, and then he gives them the c- this famous Christ hymn, which, uh, scholars think that other than the hymn in Colossians 1, this is probably the oldest statement of faith, uh, one of the oldest statements of faith in the Bible, in the New Testament about Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it just talks about how Jesus even-
Seth: We should-
David: You wanna read it?
Seth: Yes, read it. Yeah.
David: Yeah, read it. Yeah.
Seth: "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant. Being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
David: Yes.
Seth: So g- there's a lot of famous verses in Philippians.
David: Oh, a ton. Yes.
Seth: So, and this is one of them.
David: Yeah. And so this is the Christ hymn, is what this is often called, and what he's talking about is, okay, uh, [laughs] if anybody shouldn't need to be humbled, you know, it's God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And even though Jesus is God himself, he did not hold onto that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but humbled himself to the point of becoming a human, and then f- being found in, as a human, that wasn't humiliation enough for him. He then humbled himself to a, a, the, a scandalous death on a cross.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that is who I'm being like by staying alive here in prison.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he says, "It will mean deliverance for me." Why? Well, finish the Christ hymn. Because after Jesus suffered death on a cross, he was exalted to the right hand of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Paul later, uh, in chapter 3 says that he too-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... will be given the same glorified heavenly body. So he is saying like, "I'm living the gospel."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "I'm participating in it. I'm being in Christ. I'm suffering, and I will be raised." That's why he can have joy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in suffering.
Seth: Yep.
David: 'Cause he knows what's on the other side of it. And beyond that, though, it's not just knowing what's on the other side of it, like, oh, well, that's like, that's Romans 8 stuff where he's like, "I don't even wanna compare-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... present suffering to future glorification." This is different. He's saying, "I'm happy. I have joy in suffering. Why? Because I am being Christ." And he has a joy in being Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, so this is what blew my mind-
Seth: Okay
David: ... when I was thinking about this-
Seth: What, what went on?
David: ... this morning, and it was, um, it w- it was this, this idea that, like, there is a surpassing joy, um, that we have the opportunity to be like God, to do the things that God does, to take on His character, to operate in the world the way God operated in the world through Jesus. Like, that's a supreme-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... thing to be able to do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, do you wanna be godlike? Oh, yeah. I mean, there's the original temptation in the garden.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And Paul is saying, "You know what it is to actually be godlike?" We just wanna throw whatever-... meaning we have on that.
Seth: Yeah, we wanna define that for ourselves.
David: Right.
Seth: No.
David: No. He says, "It's me being in prison right now." It's like, it's Jesus going to the cross. And, and then right after the Christ hymn, he points to Timothy, his faithful servant, and he's, and he uses the same words he used to describe Jesus to describe Timothy because he says, "He was not looking after his own interests-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but he was looking after the interests of others." He's saying, "Timothy by being humble and serving others is godlike."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And that's why I'm happy."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That blows my mind.
Seth: That's really cool. And he does the same thing for Epaphroditus.
David: He does the same thing for Epaphroditus.
Seth: Epaphroditus is a man from Philippi. They're worried, "Is it, can this be true for us?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, "Look at your, one of your own."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Epaphroditus, he comes here. He's on the verge of death, like Christ was on the verge of death for us, to serve me. He is like God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: So let me tie a bow on this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, real quick. Uh, let's think like, okay, gospel-centered moment here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why is it good news-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to be like Christ in suffering-
Seth: Mm
David: ... other than, well, because there's glorification on the other side. I think that's, that's definitely part of it, but he seems to be reveling in the fact that he is like Christ in suffering, and that's good in and of itself.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, there seems to be something-
Seth: Well
David: ... intrinsically good about that.
Seth: Being like Christ in suffering means that we will be like Christ in His resurrection.
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: Absolutely right. Yeah, absolutely right. But it's like that, that, uh, he seems to, to, he, it, it, it doesn't seem to be necessary.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, it's not, it's not only that be- because there's glorification on the other side.
Seth: I don't know what you're driving at, but here's what I keep thinking-
David: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... as you're talking. Verse 25, "Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cl- cause to glory in Christ Jesus because of my coming to you again."
David: Mm.
Seth: So he's talking about, um, the fact that, why he wants to stay alive, why he wants to continue to suffer, and it's so that his people would have joy in the faith, and he's imagining-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the joy of the Philippians-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... through his continued suffering. And what I keep thinking about is that phrase from the He- from the Book of Hebrews where Jesus says, or where the author says, "It was because of the joy that was set before Him"
David: Before Him, yeah
Seth: ... "that He endured the cross."
David: Right.
Seth: So the joy of what? And it's the joy of what Paul just said, of coming to us again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Paul is imagining this day when he, the, the faith of the Philippians is completed, their godliness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is over, uh, or is like-
David: Complete
Seth: ... is completed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is completed, and then he gets to see them again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus on the cross knows that he's accomplishing the making like God of his people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the fact that one day he will be with them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which brings us to one of the other key themes throughout there, uh, the Book of Philippians, this idea of, like, sharing with, partnering with-
David: Yes
Seth: ... being in fellowship with. What's the good news of being like Christ is that we get to be with Christ.
David: Yeah. Well, that's the end of the Christ hymn.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "So that at the name of Jesus, every knee, uh, above heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like there is a kingdom.
Seth: Mm.
David: That's, that's a, that's a, that's a courtroom scene, like wha- or a, a, a inauguration, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like we're there with Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... bowing before Him. There's fellowship there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I think what I was driving at, and I think what you helped me see a little more clearly, is I, I think I was trying to create, like, a, a-
Seth: A problem to solve? [laughs]
David: Well, no. Like, I was trying to create like a, a, like an isolated case where I... Is there a way to meditate on what it, wh- why is it good news to just join Christ in suffering, period-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... regardless of glorification.
Seth: Okay.
David: And I'm like, okay, that world doesn't exist. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: And so it's a pointless-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... mental exercise. Um, so-
Seth: Because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we will alway... If we experience Chr- if we join Christ in His suffering, we will always join Him in His resurrection.
David: Yeah. There's never a situation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in which you join Christ in your suffering and not in His re- and not in His resurrection. So I think then, without trying to create that false dichotomy, uh, what I wanna say is I do think that there is something here that I have just overlooked-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in my Christian life, and that is just, like, the joy of becoming like Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of being godlike, but not in the way that I would wanna define it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause I think, like, some people would wanna define it from, like, Zen Taoism, you know, where it's like, you know, just, like, have some peace-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, and, and rest. Or, like, uh, s- you know, seculars would wanna be like, "Be tolerant and kind."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Compassion, and do no harm, above all."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, uh, others might wanna, you know, it, being like godlike is having all the right thoughts about God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But it's like for Paul, at least in Philippians-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... being godlike is suffering like God.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe even more mystically-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it's being in Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like there's this like-
David: Oh.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You, you just opened it for me. Okay. Uh, for all, for, for all the audio-onlys here-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... which is everybody other than Seth, I just had this big aha moment. So he's, he's doing the same thing that he was doing with the prison. He's saying, like, you, like, "I'm in prison, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but it's okay."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And so, like, he's like, "In fact, my being in prison is proof to me that I'm in Christ." And he's like, "The reason-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... why I'm happy to be in prison is because it is confirming to me that I'm sharing with Christ being on the cross."
Seth: Yes.
David: Christ was on the cross. I'm in prison. Yes. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... I'm joining with Him. This is good. If I-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... wasn't suffering, I'd be a little worried. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's just... Anyway.
Seth: No, no, it's totally, it's totally right. There, Paul is able to take his sufferings and say, "Because I'm suffering-I uniquely get to be like Christ in this moment
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: And that connection between Christ suffering and his is a great joy to him. Why? Because he knows that his suffering can't end in suffering.
David: Right.
Seth: He, like he's in pain, yes.
David: Yep.
Seth: But he won't be forever.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Christ will come to rescue him soon.
David: Right, because-
Seth: One way or the other
David: ... because he's in Christ.
Seth: Because he's in Christ.
David: Yeah, because he's, because he's suffering, he will-
Seth: Right
David: ... be resurrected. Because he went to his cross, he will rise from the grave.
Seth: To live is Christ.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: I think this is an important way... I think sometimes the way that we think about being in Christ or to live is Christ, we think that we, um, get to that place.
David: Mm.
Seth: We, if we suffer well, then we're in Christ.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If we obey His commands, that's the moment that we're in Christ and we're intimate with Him. Paul says it more simply. No, if you have been saved by Christ, to live is Christ.
David: Right. Your life is now Christ.
Seth: Your life is now Christ.
David: [laughs]
Seth: What you do now is Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like suffering now, you're like Christ. Rejoicing now, you're like Christ. Giving birth now, you're like Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: Like running a business, you're like Christ. If you have been saved by Christ-
David: To live is to Christ. [laughs]
Seth: Is to verb Christ. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yes. Okay.
Seth: And that's encouraging-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because it, it means just like what he says. I know that through others' prayers and by the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, all things will turn out for our deliverance. [gentle music] Okay. So like a lot of Paul's letters, he has... Like in Ephesians or Colossians, it's really clear. First half is-
David: Oh, right. [laughs]
Seth: ... theology, second half, practical application.
David: Right.
Seth: Generally.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, Philippians doesn't really work that way-
David: No
Seth: ... quite so clearly.
David: In fact, it usually butts the two up next to each other-
Seth: Right
David: ... really closely to where they almost sound like they're contradicting each other.
Seth: That's kind of exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he has this whole section [laughs] of-
David: Kind of, kind of, exactly right. [laughs]
Seth: Kind of exactly right. [laughs] He has this whole section about being in Christ, and then he turns around and says immediately afterwards, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have..." Again, beloved. He doesn't refer to many.
David: He loves these guys. Yeah.
Seth: He loves these guys. "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only in my presence, but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Strange phrase.
David: So, you know, work at my salvation?
Seth: For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
David: Work out your salvation because Christ is working.
Seth: Yes.
David: Wait, what? [laughs]
Seth: That's, that's, that's the logic he's using.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So if we have this really tight logic, when we have been saved by Christ-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we are in Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: Our life is Christ.
David: Yep.
Seth: Running a business, making drinks at Starbucks is Christ. Suffering is Christ. God is working in us-
David: Right
Seth: ... in that moment.
David: Christ is in us working.
Seth: Yes. Now, we strive-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to obey His commands and we work out... We don't earn our salvation, but we work out the implications of our salvation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with fear and trembling because we now carry in us the spirit of Jesus Christ that resurrects suffering people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we, in fear and trembling of that great power, that great responsibility, that great calling, work out the implications of that because God is at work in us.
David: Yes. It... Okay, so I think because, maybe it's because it's Christmastime-
Seth: Okay
David: ... um, which my two-year-old refuses to, like, allow as a word.
Seth: He can't allow-
David: Anytime I-
Seth: ... Christmastime?
David: I'm like, "It's Christmastime."
Seth: Or Christmas.
David: He's like, "No, Christmas." I'm like, "Well, no, it's Christmastime." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Anyway, it's really funny. But my, like, because it's Christmastime, uh, I, I just wanna-
Seth: It's like how my daughter has chosen to believe in Santa Claus this year.
David: Oh, she's decided.
Seth: Like we, we'd never talked about Santa.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: But, like, her friends at school believe in Santa.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Shiloh, who's five, does not believe in Santa. He will tell it straight to her face.
David: [laughs] Right. But his older sister-
Seth: But his, but, but older daugh... But, but my older daughter, his older sister, will violently defend Santa-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... with logical arguments, to which my five-year-old says, "That's not true."
David: [laughs] That's amazing.
Seth: Anyway, Christmastime.
David: Christmastime. Um, anyway, uh, you, you talked about this difference between working out your salvation and earning your salvation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I just thought of A Christmas Carol.
Seth: Okay.
David: So I, for a second, I was like, oh, I think it's like A Christmas Carol because, you know, he's, he's shown his future and it's all terrible, and then he, the implications of what he's been shown, he lives differently.
Seth: Yep.
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: No. [laughs]
David: Because if he doesn't live differently, he will still have the same fate.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, a- and I think that's how... I think a lot of us have Christmas Carol salvations. [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Where it's like we know what the end will be now. We've been told the gospel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We know there's a heaven and a hell. We know that Jesus has done everything necessary to save us, and so we believe in him, and then we act differently 'cause we don't want that fate.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: That's A Christmas Carol, not the Christian story. [laughs]
Seth: Hmm.
David: The Chris- the Christmas... The Christian story, I'm getting confused here. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: The Christian story is that you, when you put your faith in Christ, Christ came in you, and therefore your future has changed. So if you got Ghost of Christmas Futured, you would not see Ebenezer Scrooge on your tombstone anymore.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The future would be different because Christ is in you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and now you are working out towards a new future. I got there.
Seth: You got there.
David: It was a, it was a windy road. [laughs]
Seth: Well, it was like I had this, another interesting parenting moment-
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: ... that's really helpful here. Shiloh was being kind of-
David: Shiloh. [laughs]
Seth: My, my son was kind of being a jerk to his sister and then he was like, he says to him like, "I hate you."
David: Oh.
Seth: I don't know, whatever. And Sonny was like, "Well, if you hate me, that means you hate God and you're going to hell." [laughs]
David: Oh, man.
Seth: I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."
David: [laughs] So much just happened.
Seth: I was like, so much just happened. And I was like, and I was like, I had that thought in my mind. I was like, the reason we act differently is not the fear of going to hell-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's the vision that we have been saved by Christ's death and resurrection, His love for us on the cross.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I was trying to communicate-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... this to a five and a seven-year-old, who were over it before I even started. So they should listen to this podcast. [laughs]
David: [laughs] They should. Uh, so anyway, I bring all that up just to, to, like, just try to like add flesh to this very mystical-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... point of like, okay, we are in Christ and so Christ is working in me and so I'm working out that reality. And for Paul in that moment, him working out the reality of him being saved by Jesus was him being in prison.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's working out salvation while being in prison.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then he goes on and says here, "So do all things without grumbling or disputing."
David: Right.
Seth: Which is a really kind of earthy way. It's like-
David: Very
Seth: ... it's like, okay, you're in Christ, this mystical union with the one who made the universe and is saving you, so don't complain.
David: About the speed limit.
Seth: About... [laughs] Yeah. It's like, that's really the way it feel. So don't grumble or complain. I think that's actually the same phrasing that is in Exodus.
David: Oh. Oh, like the chief sin of the Exodus-
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah
David: ... was like they were just grumbling and complaining-
Seth: Complaining about-
David: ... the food.
Seth: Well, about the lot that God had given them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, we're-
David: We've been saved, oh, but I don't like the food out here.
Seth: Or, or, or more in, in their context, like, we're suffering.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, everyone's against us. Our, our, the, the guy who planted our church is in prison. Like, Eu- Eu- Euodia and Syntyche over here keep bickering with each other. It's like I, I...
David: Right
Seth: ... this might not be worth it.
David: Yeah. You, you've, just as Israel was saved from Egypt, you too have been saved, and now as they were working out their salvation on the way to the Promised Land, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, their, their destiny was ahead of them.
Seth: Right.
David: But instead they grumbled and complained-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because they didn't trust that God was in them, in their suffering.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So don't do that, Philippians.
Seth: Don't do that. Shine like lights in the world.
David: I literally was reading this whole letter with an eye to any Old Testament reference, and I missed, I definitely missed that one.
Seth: I, you missed that one.
David: Definitely missed that one.
Seth: I, me, I, I was realizing it as we were reading it. But like the whole thing, like he calls them ch- uh... Anyway, he says, "So hold fast instead."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Don't grumble, don't complain. Hold fast to the word of life." And that idea of holding fast, he'll say stand firm. Later on, he'll say strive, straining towards the goal that's in Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: This idea that along with being in Christ comes like extraordinary effort-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is a big part of the letter to the Philippians.
David: Big time, yeah. And, and, and so it leads to kind of a question I had, and more just like something to dialogue about, 'cause I was like, when I think about, um, books of the Bible that most often get misused to be legalistic-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think of James.
Seth: Yep.
David: But as I was reading this, I was like, man, I think a lot of these verses I've often heard misused.
Seth: Oh, yeah, uh, the, the, the, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
David: Yes.
Seth: That's Phil- Philippians.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, there's a lot of, there's, uh, there's a lot of...
David: Little pearls
Seth: ... little pearls, in that, little, uh, nuggets.
David: Yes. Um, and so I, I think maybe help just flesh out a little bit here, I think we've already talked about it a bit, but the difference between like striving for your salvation. Like Paul talks about, like, r- I'm r- I'm running after pressing on to take hold of the goal, not that I've already attained it, but I press on.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm like, wait, so is he not a Christian yet? Like, he's pressing on to take hol- hold of something? Like...
Seth: Yeah. He says verse 14, "Brothers," or 13, "Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it on my own." I'm not perfect.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "But one thing I do, I forget what lies behind me and I strain forward to what lies ahead. I press on towards the goal for the prize," so here's the prize.
David: Yes.
Seth: "The upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is an interesting phrase.
David: The upward call, which is in... So being in Christ-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is the upward call.
Seth: The upward call is right.
David: And there's striving that takes place. I thought we were already in Christ, and Paul says we've been taken hold of by Christ already.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like...
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's going on?
Seth: I think what's going on is we are positionally-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, theologically in Christ by virtue of his, of his saving work on the cross and our faith in him, which is the point he makes right before this.
David: Yep.
Seth: This, this. He's like, "I could have trusted in my Jewish heritage, but I don't. I trust the fact that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. That's why I'm in Christ."
David: Right.
Seth: So there's a sense we're theologically in Christ. That can't be touched by our efforts, by enemies, by our circumstances. We are in Christ. But I think there's like an experiential aspect of being in Christ that is also available to us.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not just like, um, a mystical feeling that we might get in worship-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which I think that's part of it.
David: That's part of it, yeah.
Seth: But I also think that sense of like, no, we are holy like God is holy.
David: Yes.
Seth: We are like God on the earth.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like that is what I think he's talking about. The upward call of God in Christ Jesus is that he's striving to look like the one who saved him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with everything he has in him.
David: Yeah. Was... What, what popped into my head, which, uh, y- which you unlocked for me, is, um, think about the Bible this way. The Bible has positional theological truths about it. It's the Word of God. Um, uh, it's sweeter than honeycomb. It's more precious than gold, right? Much more to be desired than anything, you know?
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, but you just look at it, and even if you just casually read it, it does not come off that way. You have to press in.And work hard-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to experience the reality [laughs] of what is just true of that book. I mean, I, I mean, that could be true of any book. Like oh, man, Great Expectations. There were two Charles Dickens references in one-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... podcast.
Seth: What was-
David: Solid
Seth: ... the first one?
David: Christmas Carol.
Seth: Oh, Christmas Carol. [laughs]
David: [laughs] I was like, what are we talking about?
Seth: I had The Muppets in my mind-
David: So did I
Seth: ... the whole time you were talking about that.
David: I mean, so did I, to be fair.
Seth: So I was like, Charles Dickens is like six degrees of separation from Muppets. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Uh, but like you could say that in any book, like, oh, Great Expectations is a great book. I look at it, and it looks like a horrible book. The cover art is boring. It's very thick. The words are small. It's in a different timeframe. No, no, no, but if you take the time to read it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like you'll, you'll experience it as good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's saying the same thing, like, "I'm in Christ."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there's an upward call now that like I look at my life, I'm like, "I don't look like Christ."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I'm gonna press in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and work hard and run hard to have, to, to, to experience that, to be what I am.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that, that's not earning something. That is uncovering what's already there.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, I think-
David: Like, like, like, like discovering a good book.
Seth: Dallas Willard says, "Grace, the grace of God saving us is not opposed to effort-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but to earning."
David: Yes.
Seth: We're not earning-
David: Yes
Seth: ... God's good opinion of us, but that doesn't mean-
David: There's no effort
Seth: ... there's no effort involved.
David: Right.
Seth: In the same way, like if anybody has suffered to any degree, it is a tremen- takes a tremendous deal of effort just to survive the ordeal, deal with the str- the str- the trauma after it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... let alone remain faithful to Christ in the middle of it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like effort and suffering on its own is intense, but that upward call, that forgetting what happened in the past and striving for something that we are not yet takes effort.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Paul's saying, "It's worth it," like being like Christ is worth it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he turns it around and he says, "I don't want that just for myself. I want it for you." Verse 4, chapter 1, "Therefore, my brothers, whom I love and long for, you are my joy and my crown."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Stand firm, my beloved."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And again, I just think, keep thinking about Jesus. Because of the joy set before him, he endured the cross.
David: Mm.
Seth: Ephesians even says that God considered us his inheritance.
David: Oh, right. That's crazy.
Seth: We are God's in- w- when Je- God dies, he gets us.
David: Oof.
Seth: When the reason God died is because he knew he would get us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the same way that Paul sees the Philippians as his joy and crown, Jesus dies because he knows we will become his joy and crown. And in fact, we are already becoming his joy and crown.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So no wonder Paul can rejoice and strain and strive to look more like the one who considers him that way.
David: Yeah. Oh, that's, wow, that's beautiful. Um, okay. Uh, I'm, I'm s- I'm... Oh, there's one thing I wanna talk about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in chapter 3, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... before we move on to chapter 4, and as he really turns the tables-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in chapter 4. Um-
Seth: Thumb screws come out.
David: Yes. Uh, but in chapter 3, there's this brief mention of what is usually reserved to be like the main point of one of Paul's letters.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's just like a throwaway comment almost.
Seth: This is a, I mean, this is a pretty big, famous verse in scripture.
David: Yep.
Seth: It says, "I'm, uh, if anyone has any confidence in the flesh, I have more. Circumcised on the eighth day. The people of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, studied under G- Gamaliel, as to zeal-
David: [laughs] Gamaliel
Seth: ... Gamaliel. [laughs] Uh, as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
David: Right.
Seth: Whatever gain I had, though, I count as loss-
David: Right
Seth: ... for the sake of knowing Christ our Lord."
David: So he goes through this r- his rap sheet, his resume, and he's like, "I am probably the coolest, baddest, most, you know-"
Seth: Most Hebrew of Hebrews.
David: Most Hebrew of Hebrews. Um, he's like, uh, and he's saying this because he said, "No." Right before that, he says, "Watch out for the Judaizers." You know, like, "Watch out for those..." Does he say dogs in this one?
Seth: He says, "Look out for the dogs."
David: The dogs.
Seth: Evildoers, those who mutilate their flesh.
David: Yep, and he talks about circumcision right after it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he's ta- he's talking about this whole issue of Jewish circumcision-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, being kind of shorthand for like you have to obey the Jewish law. You have to become a Jew to become a Christian. You need to be in the Jewish lineage before you're in Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Being in Christ isn't enough. You need to be in the Torah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You need to be in Moses.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he, and, a- and that's usually takes on like, uh, the full weight of a letter. You know, you think of Galatians or something like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But here he just touches it, and I think, you know, he could be doing this because he just knows-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that that problem's out there and wants to flag it for his friends. Um, and, uh, uh, but then I th- I think it's also, he uses it as a, as a use case. It's a widely known problem in the church, and so he uses it as a use case. Because he says, "Okay, so there are people out there who are using their Jewishness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to elevate themselves above others." We just read the Christ hymn.
Seth: Right.
David: God did not elevate himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, s- but Jews are elevating themselves above o- above others. I'm the Jewish, the, the most Jewish-
Seth: I'm the Jew-
David: ... the most Jewish person here
Seth: ... I'm the Jew. Yeah
David: ... I'm the, I have the highest accreditation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And yet that's filth to me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I have Christ.
Seth: Yeah, I'm in, being in Christ is greater than being in the circumcision or in the Torah-
David: Right
Seth: ... or in... I w- I don't wanna put the Torah against Christ.
David: No.
Seth: But like-
David: But y- it's like that's what he's saying. I, I mean, uh, I, I mean, to, to, I think land on what you're trying t- to say there, it's like because if I'm in Christ, I have the fullness and completion of the Torah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and of Moses and of circumcision.
Seth: Yeah, he no longer rejoices in his l- ethnic lineage, his cultural lineage. He rejoices in the fact that he has Christ given to him.
David: Yeah, I mean, I mean, case in point, verse 3 of chapter 3, uh, being like the fulfillment. He's like-Because we are the circumcision.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's no, there's, there's no longer a physical circumcision.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Whenever we have the heart of sin cut out of us and have Christ put into us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that is the circumcision that-
Seth: Why-
David: ... God has always been aiming at.
Seth: And why that's significant here especially is, like, if there is this, like, Judaizing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or, like, these Jewish people trying to, like, persecute the Christians, more than likely, this church was predominantly Gentile because of what Philippi was. It was a Roman colony in Greece.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So this is where all the veterans went once they retired-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, from the Roman army.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So this is like they were proud to be Roman.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and then for Paul to respond to the Jewish influence and say, "No, these Romans are the circumcision who have faith in-
David: Oh
Seth: ... Jesus Christ"-
David: Ouch
Seth: ... uh, [laughs] like, uh, because we don't put confidence in the flesh.
David: Right.
Seth: That's a pretty, that's a pretty big broadside to anybody claiming otherwise.
David: That's right. So his whole point there is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... uh, there is more glory in humility. Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, just like Jesus was God and yet humbled himself, it doesn't matter that I'm the Hebrew of Hebrews. I'd rather humble myself and have Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he then turns the tables.
Seth: Do, and he says that, he goes-
David: Oh, yeah. Go ahead
Seth: ... "So that I may know him"-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... "and the power of his resurrection and may share in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death." He's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... what's he glorying in? He's glorying in the fact that he gets to suffer with Christ and be raised with Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's more important-
David: Oh
Seth: ... than celebrating his e- his Jewish heritage.
David: Right. And so, um, yeah, that's amazing. Okay. So really quick, we need to end, we need to wrap this up. Um, he turns the tables at the end.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, okay, so it's all, being in Christ is being happy to suffer and to be humble and to go low and to, like, want fellowship with others, like, and to want them to be crowns, you know? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all this kinda stuff. And so he's like, "Okay, so, uh, Euodia and Syntyche, stop fighting."
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: 'Cause apparently there were two women in this church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... prominent women-
Seth: Mm
David: ... probably leaders in the church, and they were at odds. We don't know why, um, but they were fighting, and he says, "Be like Christ. Be like Timothy. You know?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Be like me and just be humble and love each other and have joy in that."
Seth: Yep, and that's, that's, yeah. That's sweet. So he, what he's been doing the whole letter-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he was like, "As I've been mimicking Christ, as Timothy and Epaphroditus have been looking like Christ, as we're working out our salvation and what it means to look like Christ, Euodia and Syntyche, dear women, be like them."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Do, be like Timothy and Paul. Be like Jesus towards one another. Rejoice and move on."
David: Yep.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So the point for us then is, like, I can always think of people that I haven't been humble toward, you know, people that, like, and situations in which I am not humble and that I do grasp on to a position of power that I've been given.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I do count equality with so-and-so person of influence as something to be grasped.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: You know, and I'm not like Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think, I think that doing that will bring me joy. I think that getting more power-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and rising up higher and putting myself above others will make me happier and more content. It's the American dream.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Contentment is found in the upward call of consumerism-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not the upward call of Christ, which is a downward call to the cross. And so for me, what I, as I'm just meditating on everything we just said, I'm just like, man, I am Euodia and Syntyche.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I elevate myself above others because I want joy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what Paul is saying to me is, "David, you have been taken hold of by Christ, so work out the salvation that was earned for you on the cross by going low, humbling yourself, not being afraid to suffer. Be joyful, because in that you will have w- you will count everything else as rubbish."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that, anyway, that's how I see it anyway.
Seth: There's a way he says it right before it. He says, he's talking about evildoers-
David: Mm
Seth: ... people who are not acting as Christ, uh, in Christ's humility, and says, "Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, uh, with minds set on earthly things."
David: Mm.
Seth: So you just named it, like, what does it mean for our belly to be our gods?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It means to c- think that what we consume and what we have is all there is.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's saying, if all you put your stock in is the circles of influence you could be in but don't have yet, the money that you don't have in your bank account yet, the new line of credit that you don't have-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the, um, food that you wish you could buy from Whole Foods but it's too expensive-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... 'cause, you know, Whole Foods, uh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that thing will, all that will be destroyed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But our citizenship-
David: Mm
Seth: ... verse 20, "is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly bodies to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like you're straining and striving for this one thing. Don't content yourself with the gods of this world. Don't content yourself with the disputes where you-
David: Yeah, whatever quarrel you're having
Seth: ... submit to one another, humble yourselves, wanna con- consider other pe- other people more significant than yourself because one day-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... God's gonna remake your body, and you know what that new made body's gonna be, is gonna tend towards and be best at? Humbling itself.
David: Yes. It's gonna be really good at being humble 'cause it's gonna be Christ's.
Seth: Yes. So be like Christ when he died-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and be like who you'll become soon.
David: Mm.
Seth: And do it now.
David: Yeah. Amen. That's really good. Well, that's Philippians.
Seth: That's Philippians.
David: Yeah. Thank you, guys, for joining us, uh-
Seth: And merry Christmas
David: ... and merry Christmas, and yeah, we're gonna start a rebroadcast of Genesis next week. Is that right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Great. So we hope you, we really hope you enjoy that. We really enjoyed-
Seth: Yes
David: ... putting it out there for you guys, so we hope you enjoy it again, and-
Seth: And on the 21st of December-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we'll have a special event that you can also attend. We're doing, uh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a Spoken Gospel summit.
David: Summit. Yeah. Online event, live. Uh, you'll hear from Seth, me, um, our, uh, COO, Eric.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You're gonna see some new videos. I'm gonna perform a new poem. We're gonna hear about impact. We're gonna hear from our partners at YouVersion.
Seth: It's gonna be awesome.
David: Lots of cool things. So yeah, spokengossumit.com, I believe, is how you can sign up for that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So.
Seth: And just join us and watch online.
David: It's free, but-
Seth: It's free
David: ... register.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Okay. We appreciate you guys. Merry Christmas. Bye.
Outro: [upbeat music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]