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Amos 1-2: A Social Gospel?

About This Episode

Uniquely among the minor prophets, Amos zeros in on Israel's injustice towards the poor. He indicts them for their failure to be generous as God had been generous to them. Seth and David talk about Amos' unique emphasis among the prophetic books and how Jesus' generosity transforms us into people that love justice.

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Why God's Care for the Poor Is the Best News You'll Ever Hear

Show Notes

David and Seth kick off a new series on the book of Amos, a minor prophet with a major message about justice, generosity, and the Gospel. Over the course of the episode, they unpack the first two chapters of Amos, exploring who the prophet was, the political and economic world he was speaking into, the pattern of God's judgment against the nations, and why all of it points to Jesus.

A Shepherd Called to Shame the Powerful

Amos was not a prophet by birth or pedigree. He was a shepherd and a farmer from Tekoa, a town on the border between the southern kingdom of Judah and the northern kingdom of Israel. In Amos 7:14, he says plainly, "I was no prophet, nor a prophet's son, but I was a herdsman and a dresser of sycamore figs. But the Lord took me from following the flock and the Lord said to me, 'Go and prophesy to my people Israel.'" God plucked him from obscurity and gave him a prophetic ministry to a people drowning in wealth and injustice.

This matters because Amos, as a farmer, was not among the privileged. He was brought up from among the humble to speak against the strong and the rich. That pattern itself echoes the Gospel: God uses the weak to shame the wise, the lowly to confront the powerful. Amos, the shepherd-prophet, foreshadows Jesus, the shepherd-king who would one day prophesy an end to the corrupt systems of Rome and the religious elite, offering a new way forward through his blood and his Spirit.

Israel's Silver Age and the Roots of Injustice

Amos prophesied during the reign of Jeroboam II, a period often called Israel's Silver Age, second only to the Golden Age under Solomon. The northern kingdom was thriving economically. Territory was expanding, crops were abundant, and money was piling up. Archaeological digs in the region of Samaria have corroborated this, turning up ivory, ornate structures, and signs of lavish wealth that date to this exact period.

But the prosperity was rotten at its core. Israel's wealth was directly tied to its idolatry. The nation had formed treaties with surrounding nations, and along with economic gain came the importation of foreign gods. The worship sites at Gilgal and Bethel, where Jeroboam I had originally set up golden calves, became syncretistic centers blending the worship of God with the worship of pagan deities. So when Amos spoke against Israel's wealth, he was simultaneously speaking against its idolatry. The two were inseparable. Meanwhile, a stratified economy had emerged where a few rich elites preyed on the many poor, and the nation's basic ritualistic observance of God gave them the illusion that everything was fine.

God Roars: Judgment on the Nations

The book opens with a striking image: "The Lord roars from Zion and utters his voice from Jerusalem. The pastures of the shepherds mourn, and the top of Carmel withers" (Amos 1:2). God is pictured as a roaring lion, and the whole earth trembles at his voice. This becomes a recurring theme in the book. Amos even links his own prophetic ministry to it: "The lion has roared, who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken, who can but prophesy?" (Amos 3:8). God's anger at injustice was so fierce that Amos simply could not stay silent.

What follows is a structured series of judgments against the nations surrounding Israel, each beginning with the same refrain: "For three transgressions and for four, I will not revoke punishment." The literary pattern is deliberate. The phrase "three and four" signals sins that have been stacking up, with the fourth being the final straw. The nations addressed are Damascus, Gaza, Tyre, Edom, Ammon, and Moab, and together they geographically encircle Israel. Even more strikingly, the order in which they are named crisscrosses Israel like the crosshairs of a scope, placing Israel at the dead center of God's prophetic aim.

The crimes of these nations are horrifying acts of inhumanity: Syria brutally pillaged Gilead, the Philistines engaged in human trafficking, Tyre enslaved entire populations, Edom attacked its brother nation and slaughtered women, the Ammonites ripped children from pregnant mothers to end entire family lines, and Moab desecrated the graves of enemy kings. These are war crimes, and an Israelite audience would have cheered God's judgment against every one of them.

The Knife Turns: Judah and Israel Indicted

Then the rhetoric shifts. When Amos reaches Judah, there is an innovation. The southern kingdom is not indicted for war crimes but for rejecting the law of God. This is significant because the surrounding nations did not have God's law and were judged on the basis of basic human decency. Judah, however, had received God's covenant and broken it. By placing this indictment in the same sequence as the war crimes of the nations, Amos implies that breaking God's law is at least as egregious as the worst acts of inhumanity.

When Amos finally arrives at Israel, the rhetorical trap snaps shut. Instead of naming just one sin as the culminating transgression, he names all four: selling the righteous into slavery for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals, trampling the heads of the poor into the dust, turning aside from the afflicted, and engaging in sexual immorality on garments taken from the poor as collateral while drinking wine bought with fines collected from the needy (Amos 2:6–8). The picture is devastating. Israel's sin was not just comparable to the nations' crimes; it was worse, because the nations at least committed their atrocities against outsiders. Israel was destroying its own people. And to drive the knife deeper, God reminds them: "It was I who brought you up out of the land of Egypt and led you forty years in the wilderness" (Amos 2:10). The God who rescued them from slavery was watching them enslave their own neighbors. The salvation God worked for them had produced no real change in them.

Why God Cares About the Poor — and Why That Is Gospel

At the heart of Amos 1–2 lies a question that deserves serious reflection: why is God so angry about the mistreatment of the poor? The answer runs deeper than a set of broken rules. Throughout the Torah, God built provisions for caring for the poor into the very fabric of Israel's law. And God's own actions tell the same story. When he first spoke to Moses at the burning bush, he said, "I have seen the oppression of my people" (Exodus 3:7). When Jesus began his public ministry in Luke 4, he opened the scroll of Isaiah and declared, "I have come to preach good news to the poor." Whenever God chooses to reveal himself most vividly, the poor are never far from his mind.

God's care for the poor flows from his very nature. He chose Israel not because it was the mightiest nation but because it was the least among the peoples (Deuteronomy 7:7). The act of creation itself is an act of generosity toward nothingness, taking what does not exist and lavishing it with life and beauty. And the incarnation magnifies this even further. As Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 8:9, "You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor." Jesus proved God's love for the poor not only through his ministry among widows, tax collectors, and sinners, but through his very existence as a human being. The God who holds all power, all wealth, and all glory entered into human poverty, finiteness, and mortality.

The atonement speaks the same language. So much of how Scripture describes Jesus saving us uses economic imagery: we had a debt of Death we could not pay, the wages of rebellion is death, and redemption is a word drawn from the slave market. Jesus, the one rich in his own goodness, lavishly paid the debts of the morally bankrupt. And the story does not end at the cross. In the resurrection, God vindicated an innocent sufferer. In the promised recreation, the streets of the new city are paved with gold, an image of God's indulgent generosity toward people who deserve none of it. From incarnation to crucifixion to new creation, the Gospel is one continuous act of divine generosity toward the poor.

Good News for the Guilty and the Oppressed

Amos 1–2 confronts two audiences at once. For those who are complacent, who enjoy privilege and have never seriously reckoned with how their lives intersect with systems of oppression, the text is a wake-up call. Israel was supposed to be like God in the world, to be holy as God is holy (Leviticus 19:2), and instead became worse than the pagan nations surrounding it. The Church carries that same calling today. As an embassy of the Kingdom of God, every local church is meant to reflect God's justice and generosity. When it fails to care for its own poor, it mirrors the failure of Israel in Amos's day.

But the path forward is not guilt-driven activism. The antidote to apathy and injustice is not stacking up works or drowning in shame. It is returning to the source of generosity: Jesus himself. Amos reminded Israel, "Don't you know who your God is? Don't you know what he did for you in the Exodus?" In the same way, the more deeply we meditate on what Jesus has done for us — his incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and promised return — the more our lives will be marked by his generosity. The lion has roared, and those who have truly heard cannot help but respond.

For those who are oppressed, who have been shoved to the bottom with no chance of getting up, Amos 1–2 carries a different kind of good news: God cannot stomach injustice. As Miroslav Volf once argued, it is a place of privilege to think of God as not being angry. Those who have suffered under tyranny, trafficking, and abuse need a God who is on the side of the victim, a God who will not show mercy toward those who have proven themselves merciless. And this is exactly the God Amos reveals. Every evil ever perpetrated on the face of the earth will be avenged. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord" (Romans 12:19). That promise is the only reason we can endure a broken world and still overcome evil with good.

Transcript

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.

David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you?

Seth: I'm doing well.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I've got my coffee. I got some dark chocolate today.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's fueling me.

David: Yeah, dark chocolate is like medicine sometimes.

Seth: It really is. I've, like, I've started doing tea and dark chocolate in the evening-

David: Oh, yes, yeah

Seth: ... or the afternoon.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And it feels-

David: Instead of coffee

Seth: ... coffee.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It feels really great.

David: Yeah, but now you're doing coffee.

Seth: Yeah, 'cause you-

David: 'Cause you-

Seth: You-

David: I did

Seth: ... operate

David: I was making the coffee.

Seth: And I was like, "Ah, fine."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Fine.

David: You can't say no to good coffee.

Seth: Uh, we're in the Book of Amos today.

David: We are.

Seth: First time-

David: My new boy, Amos. I'm excited

Seth: ... it's the first time I've ever studied Amos.

David: Yeah. I have a history with Amos, but it's been so long that I feel like I had to restudy everything. But I did my largest paper in my undergraduate degree in Bible and Biblical Languages on the Book of Amos.

Seth: On the whole book of Amos?

David: Yeah, and like the theme of social justice in the Book of Amos.

Seth: And, and you weren't wrong to do so.

David: No, but it was also... It wasn't really mot- it was motivated by the text itself-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but it was also motivated by, like, that time in my life-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, where I was very much dedicated to the social justice ideas of Christianity, which I am now, too, but it, there are other-

Seth: There was like an angsty teenager-

David: There was

Seth: ... place that-

David: And I think it was also-

Seth: ... in me, so

David: ... that's the only thing that was, that my Christianity was.

Seth: Mm.

David: My, it was only social justice.

Seth: It was angst at the way that everyone else was doing it wrong, like, "I'm gonna be better than everybody."

David: Exactly.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It was a proud social justice.

Seth: Mm.

David: And now it's like, uh, now it's like, hopefully I'm pursuing more of a humble one-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... amongst a, a, a wider view of everything else. But we do wanna focus in on-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Amos's chief concern here, which is, uh, social issues as it pertains to justice and mercy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and righteousness.

Seth: Uniquely among all, maybe not among all the minor prophets, but uniquely as an emphasis-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... Amos has injustice, uh, mistreatment of the poor-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and the inequality between the lazy rich-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the hardworking poor-

David: Right

Seth: ... as a central concern. So if you've ever heard, um, like the debates about is the gospel a message that you're supposed to proclaim?

David: Or a life you're supposed to live.

Seth: Or a life you're supposed to live, Amos kinda cuts right to the heart of it.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, do we preach, do we do social justice, or do we proclaim the gospel? And Amos is gonna say, "You're gonna do both of those things." [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: And here's the way that, that, that should play out in the nation of Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so it's really... I mean, I've heard this conversation happening everywhere.

David: Mm.

Seth: Maybe not so much recently, but like-

David: Right

Seth: ... um, it's, it's a live conversation.

David: Oh, definitely.

Seth: How does social justice impact, uh, our proclamation of the gospel?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or even, like, the critical race theory stuff. Like, that's the, a racial-

David: Mm

Seth: ... conversation on top of a social justice conversation, but, like, all of that's concerned with, on the bottom, was how do Christians engage society well?

David: Mm.

Seth: How do we engage our neighbors well? How do we combat injustice as we see it? And to what ex- is there a place where too much focus on injustice over- eclipses the gospel?

David: Right.

Seth: Um-

David: Or, or does there come a, a point where so much focus on, uh, this world is not my home, I'm just a passing through, makes us not care for the poor around us?

Seth: Yes.

David: Yes.

Seth: Amos goes right to the heart of all those things.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And that's why you should wanna study the Book of Amos.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So, uh, we're gonna, instead of doing, like, an introduction episode and then picking apart the book, uh, because Amos lays out so clearly in three sections-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... we're just gonna attack it that way.

Seth: Yep.

David: So maybe it's a three-part introduction [laughs] or we're just going straight through it. However you wanna view that, here we go.

Seth: Here we go.

David: But sections, uh, the sections that we're gonna go through are-

Seth: Chapters one and two

David: ... are chapters one and two, which are?

Seth: It's the, Amos's judgments against all of the nations-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and Israel in particular, in their most condensed form.

David: Okay.

Seth: So it's like-

David: And then three to six

Seth: ... the CliffsNotes. Cl- uh, three to six is, um, functionally all the ways that Israel has broken God's covenant-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and the promise and prophecy of a coming exile, uh-

David: Right

Seth: ... that will come at the hands of the Assyrians, um, depending on when you date it-

David: Right

Seth: ... sometime in the future, and then that actually happens.

David: Yes. And then the last section is seven to nine.

Seth: Yes, and it's kinda more of the same-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the sense, promise of coming destruction, but what's unique about the last section-

David: Is the ending

Seth: ... is not only the ending-

David: Oh

Seth: ... but what he does, it's a series of visions.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah, he's like, uh, "What do you see?" And it's like a flaming pot or something. I can't remember.

Seth: It's a basket of fruit.

David: A basket of fruit. [laughs]

Seth: And, uh, a fire coming, consuming everything.

David: And a plumb line.

Seth: A plague of locusts and a plumb line.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So all... Yeah, the plumb line is probably the most famous image-

David: Yes

Seth: ... from Amos, and that comes at the very end-

David: Okay

Seth: ... in a series of five visions.

David: Oh.

Seth: And then at the very last paragraph, you get this message of good news that's coming from the line of David.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we'll talk about all that.

David: Very excited to get there.

Seth: But that's the three sections-

David: Okay

Seth: ... we have. Overview, the CliffsNotes of judgment. You have the covenant unfaithfulness of Israel and the promise of exile, and then his visions and the promise of restorations by the hand of King David.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's it.

David: That's helpful. That's really helpful. Thank you. Okay, so the book opens with, "The words of Amos, who was among the shepherds." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David:He was a shepherd?

Seth: He was a shepherd.

David: He wasn't some, like... N- I don't know. Do, do, do prophets normally have some kind of heritage-

Seth: Well-

David: ... or?

Seth: Well, yeah, because think about the way that prophets are viewed throughout the Book of Kings.

David: Mm.

Seth: They're almost like this royal figure.

David: Oh, and they have to, like, be an... Like, Elijah kind of-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... bequeathed his mantle to Elisha.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Or even the role that Nathan the prophet pa- pa- played-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in King David's court. He has this official court position where he informs the king on God, on God's word and how he would function.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, how he should-

David: Right

Seth: ... behave.

David:But Amos is, like, a normal dude, and, like, his ministry is, like, out among the people, and-In like-

Seth: He's a, he's a farmer

David: ... like political liaisons-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... end up going and reporting what he's saying to the king. He's not in the king's court.

Seth: Right. So-

David: It's very different

Seth: ... if you go to Amos chapter 7, we have a strange thing at the very end where he gi- kind of gives his own, um, bi- autobiography.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he says, um, "I was no prophet"

David: Mm

Seth: ... chap- verse 7:14, "nor a prophet's son, but I was a herdsman and a dresser of sycamore figs. But the Lord took me from following the flock and the Lord said to me, 'Go and prophesy to my people Israel.'" So Amos, uniquely among some of the prophets, isn't one by birth or by heritage or by pedigree. God kind of like plucks him out of nowhere-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and, um, baptizes him for this particular ministry to this people. And that'll get picked up throughout the letter because Amos kind of uniquely is concerned with like agricultural imagery.

David: Mm.

Seth: The types of things he picks up on are kind of unique to the fact that he's a farmer. And you have this injustice that's happening between the rich of Israel and the poor of Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so Amos, as a farmer, is not among the privileged.

David: Right.

Seth: So he's being brought up from the humble-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to shame the, the strong and the rich.

David: Gotcha.

Seth: So.

David: Yeah. Okay. Uh, which is like a picture of the gospel in itself.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like that the, the humble shames the strong.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The weak shames the wise.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Amos, even in that capacity, the shepherd prophet is-

David: A picture of Jesus

Seth: ... is a picture of Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the shepherd prophet who prophesies an end to the corrupt systems-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of Rome and the Pharisees, providing a new way, um, forward by his-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... blood and spirit.

David: Okay. So then w- that's who Amos is. Where Amos preached and when Amos preached is also really important because he was in what's called Israel's Silver Age under Jeroboam II.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And he's in the northern Israel.

Seth: Well, he's actually from southern Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: But he-

Seth: Tokoa is-

David: Mm

Seth: ... it's, the, he's a shepherd of Tokoa-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which is right on the border.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So more than likely, he was based in Judah-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which is the southern kingdom.

David: Right.

Seth: And his sheep would wander across the border, and he was just like observing both places-

David: Mm

Seth: ... over the course of his time as a shepherd. So he's kind of, like he's in the faithful half of Israel, or the more faithful half of Israel down in the south, but he's seen the decadence of the north and has enough proximity to it to know how to speak against it.

David: Right. And he spends most of the time indicting the north.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So the northern kingdom, if you remember from, uh, like Kings, that is the, the, that is the, the kingdom of the 10 tribes of Israel that don't have Jerusalem or the temple-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and instead, the first Jeroboam set up idols in a new place of worship.

Seth: Golden calves even.

David: Golden calves even-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that ended up defining them as a nation, um, apostate from God.

Seth: Yep.

David: And so, um, and, and like for all intents and purposes, it seemed, they, they think that everything's great because it's all been up and to the right for them. Like everything-

Seth: Right

David: ... keeps growing, their crops keep coming in, the rains keep falling-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the money keeps piling up. They are in the Silver Age, only outmatched by the time of Solomon, the Golden Age of Israel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so they're like, "Okay, we're doing like really basic ritualistic observance of, you know, our Yahwehism."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, worship of God alone.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, we're also dabbling in these other cultic, pagan, Canaanite religions, and everything's fine. And actually, everything's great.

Seth: Everything's better than it was before.

David: Yeah. So actually, I think we've, we've got it made in the shade. I think we've got God on a leash, and we can kind of go to church as we want, you know, go in, [laughs] if you will.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, kind of go to, go to temple as we want, uh, worship as we want, offer kind of like half-hearted sacrifices to keep God placated or keep him on our side. Uh, but we've got this all figured out and everything's good.

Seth: Yeah. I think the other way to talk about that too is, so there was this, the, the pla- place, um, Gilgal and Bethel-

David: Mm

Seth: ... will get brought up a lot in Amos, and those are the two places that Jeroboam planted the first two golden calves.

David: Right.

Seth: So these are these famous places of worship. And they added to the places that they were supposed to worship Yahweh, all the gods of the surrounding nations.

David: Mm.

Seth: So Israel at this time is making treaties with a whole bunch of other nations, and it's contributing to their wealth.

David: Mm.

Seth: They're getting wealthy. At the same time, they're importing all the gods of these other nations.

David: Mm.

Seth: So the wealth that's happening in Israel is directly tied to their idolatry.

David: Right.

Seth: So they're, Amos is, when he's speaking against their wealth, he's also speaking against their idolatry, and those two things will butt up against each other often enough throughout-

David: Mm

Seth: ... throughout the Book of Amos.

David: That's helpful. Um, okay. So it's a rich time for Israel.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Northern Israel. They have started importing other gods, making, uh, illegal when it comes to God's covenant, you know, alliances.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, and they have built a functional, uh, stratified economy where you have the few rich preying on the many poor.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay?

Seth: That's it.

David: That's where and when and who Amos is.

Seth: Amos, Amos is preaching to.

David: Okay, that makes sense.

Seth: So then you kind of get all that in the first two verses in that little section in chapter nine that we talked about.

David: Oh, there, there was one question I had.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: Uh, it says, it says that, th- that Amos started preaching two years before the earthquake.

Seth: Yeah.

David: What's that? [laughs] What is that?

Seth: Well, historians will quibble over exactly when that is, but Jeroboam's reign was probably about 40 years-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... ish before the Babilo- or the Syrian, uh, invasion and then exile of Israel. So I don't know. It's just a famous earthquake, and there's little allusions to it all throughout Amos.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: So in chapter 2:13, you have this kind of oblique reference to it where it says, uh, "Behold, I will press you down in your place as a cart full of sheaves-"

David: Mm

Seth: ... presses down. Think of this really heavy cart on the ground, and the ground just shatters underneath it.

David: Mm.

Seth: So like you have, maybe that's an oblique reference to the earthquake. In 8:8, you have a reference to shaking in-

David: Okay

Seth: ... in chapter nine as well. So he's like-

David: Interesting

Seth: ... making references to it throughout the Book of Amos.

David: Okay. Okay.

Seth: Um-

David: Oh, the other thing I, I read was, um, we- we're talking about like historically or whatever.Uh, they've done archeological digs in, like, what the region of Samaria and, like, where the northern kingdom was. And at things that date during Jeroboam II's reign, whenever Amos was prophesying, they found all of these, uh, signs of decadence. Like-

Seth: Oh

David: ... tons of ivory, tons of, like, fancy materials and ornate structures, and it's like this is historically corroborated-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... this time in Amos, that it was lavish. And so I was just like, "Well, that's interesting."

Seth: That is super interesting.

David: Yeah. Um-

Seth: Um, so yeah, so that's where, that's who Amos is, that's when he's prophesying, that's who he's prophesying to, and then we move on in verse, chapter two, or verse two to his judgments against the nations. [gentle music]

David: Okay, so th- we're gonna start looking at Amos' judgment of the nations-

Seth: Yes

David: ... in one to two. Or actually, the nations are chapter one.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: So verse two says this, "The Lord roars from Zion and utters his voice from Jerusalem. And pasture, the pastures of the sheep, shepherds mourn, and the top of Carmel withers."

David: Yeah, this is an interesting picture of God as, like, a roaring lion-

Seth: Yep

David: ... and the world, like, shaking in fear at his voice. Why is this the starting picture for the Book of Amos of God? [laughs]

Seth: I don't know why-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... he chose this image, but he picks up on it often enough.

David: It's a common theme in Amos, yeah.

Seth: Amos will talk about the voice of the Lord, the roaring of the Lord, the trembling that the Lord causes.

David: Yeah, and he, and he even almost talks about his own ministry in terms of God as a roaring lion. He talks about how, like, the lion has roared. Who can but tremble? The Lord has spoken. Who can but prophesy?

Seth: Hmm.

David: You know, he links his own ministry-

Seth: Yep

David: ... Amos' own ministry, he sees it as a response to the loud voice of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, like, God is roaring out and is angry and is, and someone has to say something.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, like, I just resonate with that feeling sometimes when you just, something so bad is happening that you, like, start to just, like, shake.

Seth: I just have to say something.

David: And I, I just have to say something.

Seth: Well, that's interesting for two reasons. One, Amos picks up that idea of being, like, muzzled as a prophet I think three different times.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And historically, more than likely, Amos is one of the first prophets, like, as, when we think of minor prophets and major prophets, so Amos, Joel-

David: Right

Seth: ... Obadiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah. Historically, Amos was probably one of the first.

David: One of the earliest, yep.

Seth: So you can imagine, then, the decadence of Israel going unchecked by any voice of the Lord-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for a period of time.

David: Could you imagine being, like, the first oracle of doom prophet?

Seth: Yes.

David: And then-

Seth: And then-

David: ... Amos is like, "You really want me to say that? No one's ever said that before." [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: [laughs] You know? Like, "God is judging Israel? Aren't they his covenant people?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, I never thought of it that way, where it's like he's doing something almost novel, at least in terms of what we have in the canon of scripture. Who knows if there were other scr- other, other prophets.

Seth: Right.

David: You know?

Seth: There definitely were other prophets-

David: Yes

Seth: ... you know, like, prophesying whatever. But, like, a prophet in this vein-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Amos is probably one of the first.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So this idea that the Lord roars from Zion, and he's his mouthpiece, and even mentions the pastures of the shepherds mourn. As a shepherd, he's watching the, his own people, like, wither as-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the rich get richer.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he's calling out on behalf of the poor of Israel.

David: Yeah. But also, like, the, what the, if the top of Carmel, which is a mountain-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... if it mourns, is that kind of like the low places mourn and the high places mourn, like the places that are, like-

Seth: It could be.

David: Is that what he's doing there?

Seth: It could also be the humble and the proud. Carmel, uh, Elijah, is where God, like, burned up the offering-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... and the prophets of Baal all cut themselves and try to get Baal to come and burn up their offering-

David: Oh

Seth: ... but didn't. So it's like the top of Carmel either where your prophets are all prophesying, are withering, or even, um, God's voice is withering on the mountain. So it's like he's roaring... No, maybe that doesn't make sense.

David: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's probably-

Seth: The first one, yeah.

David: Yeah, I think it's probably that first one.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That makes sense.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: Under the voice of the Lord, all the prophets of Baal are withering-

David: Right

Seth: ... just like they did when-

David: Yeah, or the high-

Seth: ... when Baal-

David: ... and the proud.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: But also the lower hurting. It's like the whole system is-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... messed up.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. And that's just introductory comment, and then he goes on this long rant, and it all starts with the same way.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "For three transgressions of Damascus and for four, I will not revoke punishment." He does that to Damascus, to Gaza, to Tyre, to, uh, Edom, to the Ammonites, to Moab, to Judah, and then to finally Israel, and it repeats the same pattern-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... for three and for four. So it's kind of just a literary device-

Seth: Yes

David: ... he's using. It shows up in the Book of Proverbs.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Um, it shows up elsewhere in scripture. And the only i- the idea is the sins are stacking up.

Seth: That's right.

David: And for three, and let me emphasize the four, 'cause-

Seth: Yeah, I would've judged you for these three, but now there's a fourth one.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like... Uh, yeah. It's like, it's like we've got you convicted on manslaughter, breaking and entering, this other thing, but then when you did this, [laughs] it's like-

David: And it broke the camel's back.

Seth: Yeah, and it's like you, we could have taken you to court for any of them. [laughs]

David: Yes.

Seth: But enough is enough-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is what he's getting at here.

David: And he even mentioned court. Possibly this is even some sort of, like, covenant litigation.

Seth: Yes.

David: So you have, like, treaties that nations made between one another, and if one sh- the n- one nation reneged on their part of the covenant-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the more powerful nation or the wrong nation comes and say, "Well, for three transgressions and for four, I'm coming up against you because you've failed your half of the partnership."

Seth: Right. It's not like I'm just coming to you and beating you up for no reason.

David: Yes.

Seth: Here's a list of reasons why I'm in my right to exact-

David: Yes

Seth: ... this punishment against you.

David: Yes, and so-

Seth: That's what God's doing to these surrounding nations.

David: Right.

Seth: Okay.

David: And he, what I think he's doing here, "So for three transgressions and for four, I will not revoke punishment," and then he names one. So it's as if God is only naming the last and most egregious-

Seth: Right

David: ... of all the sins of these nations. And interestingly, as you go through this list

Seth: They're all the nations that surround Israel.

David: That's right.

Seth: So it's like Damascus and Tyre and, uh, Gaza, they all, like, circle, circle around Israel.

David: Yeah, and m- and interestingly, they not only... They definitely encircle Israel-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but the, the order in which they're named-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... isn't a circle, it crisscrosses Israel like an X.

Seth: So it's like Israel's in the center-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... of God's [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... prophetic crosshairs. [laughs]

David: It is in, Israel's in the crosshairs. [laughs]

Seth: It's like-

David: The, it's like [laughs] the nations form the circle of the scope-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but Israel is in the dead center where the sniper's gonna hit.

Seth: It's so, it's kind of a brilliant piece of literary design.

David: It's very brilliant.

Seth: And it's like, really, if you were an Israelite, you're like, "Oh, yeah-

David: Oh

Seth: ... they deserve it."

David: Oh.

Seth: And then, uh, the, but we're, what about us? They, they skipped us.

David: Yeah, you started, you're starting to feel-

Seth: And then the east and the west, like, they skipped us again.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Northeast and southwest, they did it again.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Anyway.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So-

Seth: So that's what's happening.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so, and it's worth going through w- what each of these-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... nations have done. So s- significantly, Amos calls out the surrounding nations', like, inhumanity and brutality.

David: Mm.

Seth: So, uh, Syria, which is Damascus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, raises the territory of G- Gilead and says they have threshed Gilead with threshing sledges of iron. So threshing is like, it's how you harvest something, right?

David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth: And to do it with a, an iron thresh-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is like to do it brutally, to do it mercis- mercilessly.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So the idea is they've gone into Gilead and they just haven't conquer, they've pillaged.

David: Yeah, they've committed war crimes.

Seth: They've committed war crimes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Then he moves on to, uh, the Philistines. They raided and then human trafficked their prisoners to the neighboring nation of Edom.

David: Mm.

Seth: Uh, then Tyre slave trades another, enslaves a nation, and then slave trades them away to another nation.

David: Oh, my goodness.

Seth: Uh, Edom viciously attacks its brother country-

David: Right

Seth: ... and slaughters their women.

David: Mm.

Seth: So Edom, again, is a relative-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of Jacob, which is Israel, so E- like, they're brother nations. So-

David: Yeah, Jacob and Esau were brothers.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Jacob's descendants went on to form Israel. Esau's descendants went on to form Edom, and they should be brothers-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and should partner together and should be even convenantly tangential.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But instead, they're breaking that brotherly bond, Edom is-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and viciously attacking their own brother.

Seth: Right. So Amos is calling out them for doing so. The Ammonites, we're told specifically, rip children from inside their pregnant mothers-

David: My goodness

Seth: ... to ensure that no line continues-

David: Ugh

Seth: ... of the, the people that they're, um, go- that they're fighting against.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And then Moab, d- this is a strange one, but they desecrate the grave of their kings.

David: Mm.

Seth: So they, they bring up the bones of their dead kings, and they just, like, des- it's like they just desecrate graves.

David: Right.

Seth: Moab is a nation that desecrates graves.

David: Yeah. I mean, you could imagine going to another country-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and beating them in war.

Seth: Mm.

David: But then, like, imagine if, if, if, i- imagine if America was conquered, right?

Seth: Okay.

David: And then someone goes and they're like, "Okay, we, you won. Fine. We surrender." And they're like, "No. Now we're going to the Arlington Cemetery."

Seth: And then digging up the bodies.

David: And they just, digging, and they just destroy the Ar-

Seth: Yes

David: ... just no respect-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and just insult to injury, all shame, no honor.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Well, but-

David: They're committing war crimes

Seth: ... I'm also thinking about Negan from The Walking Dead. Like, hanging heads. [laughs]

David: I don't know who that is. [laughs] Watch The Walking Dead?

Seth: It's like, he hangs the heads of his enemies on the wall-

David: Oh, my goodness

Seth: ... out- outside of his, like, fortress.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's what's happening.

David: Okay.

Seth: And then those are all the nations-

David: Mm

Seth: ... surrounding Israel. They're being called out for their inhumanity, their war crimes, their human trafficking. And then it comes a little bit closer home to Judah.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And we're told that Judah-

David: Oh, befo- sorry.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: Really quick, before you go to Judah, something interesting to know here, to add on to maybe what Israel was thinking as they were listening to Amos, and, like, the inner cultural narrative that they had was, um, they've been winning battles up to this point. Like, they've actually expanded their territory at this point.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And these are the nations that have been doing war against them and trying to infringe on their boundaries and have failed. And so they're thinking as God is pronouncing judgments on them-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... they're thinking like, "Yeah, God's on our side."

Seth: Ah.

David: "Yeah, we're winning military battles. Yeah, we're in the right." But then Judah gets mentioned, and it could either be like, "Okay, that's getting a little too close to home," you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, "I'm getting uncomfortable." Or it could be like, "Yeah, the southern kingdom stinks, and we are the, we are the champions. We're the-"

Seth: Fascinating.

David: You know, so, like-

Seth: Right, right, right, right

David: ... it could, it could end up feeding-

Seth: Everyone could have been on Amos' side-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... for a while.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And then the knife gets turned.

David: Exactly.

Seth: That, that's kinda cool.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Well, then Judah, when Amos finally mentions Judah, there's an innovation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's a change in how he addresses them.

David: And Judah is Jerusalem, where the temple is. This is David's line.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: It says, "For three transgressions of Judah and for four, I will not revoke punishment, because they have rejected the law of the Lord."

David: Yep.

Seth: This is-

David: No longer war crimes and things like that.

Seth: Well, no, I think-

David: Oh

Seth: ... it's, so none of the other nations are indicted for their breaking of the law-

David: Right

Seth: ... because they don't have the law.

David: Right.

Seth: They're indicted for abuses against humanity.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But when it comes to Israel, I don't think we're s- I think Judah, sorry.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Judah is not just being inhuman, they're also breaking God's law. They're adding to the inhumanity of the nations around them-

David: Why do you think that?

Seth: ... the breaking of the law. Because of where it's placed in the whole screed. Amos is, like, indicting the nations for their treatment of other people. Judah is more faithful than Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I think that's what you're pointing at. But it's not-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... totally absent.

David: I'm trying to find, like, historical precedent for Judah's soldiers committing war crimes like this.

Seth: War crimes maybe not, but it's not, I don't think we're just supposed to say, "Oh, you've just transgressed the covenant." I don't think-

David: Well, I mean, I think it's, I think, I think we don't have to say that. I think we would say, "Oh, transgressing the covenant is as bad as war crimes."

Seth: Yes, that's what you're supposed to think.

David: That's, yeah, I'm fine with that.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: And I, it wouldn't even be a stretch to say-They've do- gone further than that. They've not just committed war crimes, they've also broken the law of the Lord, which is even more egregious.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: So it's like the, so the three and the f- four-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the fourth was always a war crime.

David: The worst. Yeah.

Seth: So here it's like you're embedding all the other thing, and the worst thing that's happening is you're breaking the law of the Lord. I think you're, you could imply that the other things happening in Israel are the fourth grade.

David: You could. I, I do think, uh, maybe the easiest reading of the text-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is, which is like a, for people listening, like, that's like the, the one of the biblical rules of interpretation is what's the most natural-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... conclusion you would come to by reading. And it seems like it would be, the most natural reading would be, uh, oh, for three and for four, it's gonna be really bad war crime.

Seth: Right.

David: It's like, wait, you broke the law?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But it's the same punishment?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Man, breaking the law must be way worse than I thought it was. I w- I've been treating the covenant so poorly.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Right, right, right.

David: And it's like, oh, because they're all sins against God, ultimately.

Seth: Right.

David: And so whether or not they've been committing acts of, like, horrible acts of war or, quote-unquote, "just breaking-

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: ... God's commandment-

Seth: Right

David: ... it's terrible-

Seth: Yes

David: ... what they're doing, and God is also going to judge Judah as he is going to judge the nations.

Seth: And it introduces to us the basis on which Israel will be judged here in just a second. So-

David: Which is the law

Seth: ... which is the law.

David: Okay.

Seth: So, and when, so that's all the nations surrounding Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Even Judah, indicted for breaking the law, it comes to Israel. "For three transgressions of Israel and for four, I will not revoke punishment." And instead of just mentioning one-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... he mentions all four. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Uh-oh.

Seth: Like, uh-oh, Amos is not messing around by the time he gets to Israel. He says, "You've sold the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of tramp- uh, of sand- oh, sorry. You've sold the righteous for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "And those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth. You turn aside from the way of the afflicted, and a man and his father go to the same girl so that my holy name is profaned. They lay themselves down beside every al- altar on garments taken in pledge, and in the house of their God they drink the wines who, of those who have been fined." It's this kind of really holistic picture of the depravity of Israel and a total rejection of God's law as well.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And it's like this is the climax of Amos's speech, and it's the, the point where the knife is turned.

David: That's right.

Seth: Israel's not, Israel's not different than the other nations.

David: Right.

Seth: They're worse than the other nations.

David: Well, yeah, because the other nations were doing these crimes against other nations.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Israel is committing this, these, like, horrible atrocities against their own people.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, not that the, not that what I'm saying, like, that the other nations are okay because they did that to other nations.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it's like even, even the w- most brutal nations know you treat your, you treat your, your own kind-

Seth: You treat your own better than this.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: And just to make sure we hear what Amos is saying here, he says, so Israel is selling her own people into slavery.

David: That's right.

Seth: Uh, and over petty debts, the debts of sandals.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's what he's saying. It's like, oh, somebody went into slavery for a pair of sandals, and you're okay with this, Israel.

David: Right.

Seth: That kind of systemic injustice is commonplace among you. You're oppressing the poor through neglect, and then fathers and sons are drunkenly abusing women on the same cloaks they took from the poor as collateral.

David: Yep.

Seth: Which is crazy.

David: Yes.

Seth: So it's like, it's like everyone's complicit in this system that... I thought that was s- I thought that was, that part was crazy.

David: Well, it's absolutely disgusting. There, there's, so there's a, there's a law... A- and it's from the, like, it's like, like, there are, there are laws controlling this, this cultural rule in, in the Torah. But the idea here is that, um, i- if you are going to, like, give a day loan to a poor person, you know, uh, you, then you would, like, take their garment as collateral.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, their, their, their coat. So that night, it's gonna get cold, and they're gonna need a coat, right? Or else they're gonna freeze.

Seth: Yep.

David: And so they're gonna have to work in order to get their coat back, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: That, that's how they do it. And they would take that cloak, and instead of letting it go back to the needy person so they don't freeze to death that night, they instead have sex on it with their own... Like, a father will have sex with a woman with his own son on this coat-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... while getting drunk on wine that was purchased-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... with the fines they collected-

Seth: From the needy

David: ... from the needy. Yeah. It, this is a horrible system.

Seth: Yeah. And the, the father and the son going to this, into the g- same girl, that could be a couple different things.

David: It could.

Seth: It could be incest.

David: Right. It could be cult prostitution.

Seth: It could be cult prostitution. So it's like, whatever it is, it's bad.

David: Yeah, it onl- it onl- it doesn't matter. It's horrific, whatever it is.

Seth: So not only have they committed inhumanity like the nations around them, not only have they broken God's law, they've also gone against the way that God saved them. The next-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... ver- couple verses, "Also, it was I who brought you out of the land of Egypt and led you for 40, uh, years in the wilderness, and I raised up your sons for prophets." He's saying, like, "I saved you from slavery-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and now you're oppressing the people, your own people, the same way that Israel, uh, Egypt oppressed you. How on earth can this be possible?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: Why... You're being hypocrites on top of being everything else.

David: Man, yeah. Like, it's like the salvation that God worked for them hasn't worked no real change on them.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then-

David: Goodness

Seth: ... and then his judgment.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not retain their strength, nor shall the mighty save his life. He who handles the bow will not stand. The swift of foot will not save himself, nor shall he who rides the horse to save his life. And he who is stout of heart among the mighty shall flee away naked in that day."

David: Mm.

Seth: Even the most brazen and bold abusers are gonna run away naked from God's righteous anger at the way that Israel's oppressing its poor.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's Amos 1 and 2.

David: Okay.That's intense. Uh, it seems like part of, part of this, um, has to not only do with... I think we've only talked about Israel's sin in terms of it being worse than the nation's-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... which, okay, let's put that on the table. I think something else that is happening here is Israel's sin is worse because of who they are in relation-

Seth: Yes

David: ... to God.

Seth: Yes.

David: That they're not like the nations.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: They don't have Yahweh as their god. They don't have the law that told them how to live as light in this world, how to be God in this world, right? And it's like-

Seth: Yeah, chapter three verse two, "You only have I known-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of all the families of the earth, therefore I will punish you-

David: Right

Seth: ... for all your iniquities." They had this great calling on themselves, and they abused it.

David: Right.

Seth: And there are gonna be great consequences because of it. Because they were especially called by God, there's a special punishment laid out for them for neglecting it.

David: Mm. Okay. So I, I'm wanting to jump to some things, but I'm trying to, to sit here for a second.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, let- can I... Let me ask a dumb question to hopefully have a smart conversation.

Seth: Great. [laughs] My favorite kind.

David: Uh, why is God so mad about the mistreatment of the poor?

Seth: I mean-

David: I mean, it's a dumb- it feels like a dumb question.

Seth: It feels like a dumb question, you're right. But because He does. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Well, I mean, one, throughout the Torah-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... there were provisions to care for the poor.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, and they're violating His laws to care for the poor.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So there's that. And then even Israel itself had been poor in Egypt, and He showed compassion and mercy on them-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in saving them.

David: So the ways God acts and the commands God gives both reveal who God is.

Seth: Yeah.

David: God is a God who cares for the oppressed, the poor, the needy, the marginalized, and when we don't, we are rebelling against the character and the heart of God.

Seth: Yes. Like, the reason why God is so angry here is because we are... or against Israel-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is because Israel is acting contrary to His nature.

David: They're not being like God.

Seth: Right.

David: Yes.

Seth: And Israel was supposed to be like God in the world to the surrounding nations.

David: That's right. Leviticus says, "Be holy as I am holy." Like-

Seth: And in the middle, in that prophetic crosshairs, they are worse than the surrounding nations.

David: That's right.

Seth: It's almost as if the nations around them are taking cues from Israel in the opposite direction-

David: That's right

Seth: ... of God's calling.

David: Yeah, the point of Israel was supposed to be that they would embed themselves among the nations and make the surrounding nations better-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and more like God and make the world more like the Garden of Eden.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But instead, they have brought decreation, chaos, and death into the world, bringing about and, um, exacerbating the fall and the death that came from it instead.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay? So-

Seth: Yeah, so it's like why does God care about the oppression of the poor? I mean, because God is a God that cares for the poor-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and the weak.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's who He is in His character. He has mercy and compassion, and Israel's abandoned those things.

David: Is there an answer to the question why does God care for the poor other than, like, that's who He's revealed Himself to be? And if that's it-

Seth: Right

David: ... then that's fine. It's, you know... But I'm, I'm just like, that's an interesting question.

Seth: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you, in God's self-revelation of Himself-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's like that's who He's coming towards. I mean, when God first spoke to Abraham at the burning bush-

David: Moses.

Seth: Oh, sorry. What'd I say?

David: Abraham.

Seth: Abraham. It's... He sa- He tells them, "I've seen the oppression of my people, Israel."

David: He's a God who sees oppression and responds.

Seth: And then even when Jesus comes on the scene speaking in the tabernacle, "I have come to pr-", He opens up the Scroll of Isaiah and said, "I've come to preach good news to the poor."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like whenever God chooses to reveal Himself most vividly in the burning bush and in Jesus Christ Himself, the poor are not far from His mind.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, and I don't know another way to say that except maybe, like, if you like, God has all power and has all wealth, right?

David: Yes.

Seth: So the very act of creation-

David: Is an act of benevolence to the poor

Seth: ... is an act of benevolence to the poor.

David: Because He takes something that is not and makes it something that is lavish-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in the act of creation. So, yeah, again, that's, but that's still a self-revelation.

Seth: Right.

David: That's not talking about, like, the nature, why it is the nature of God such that it cares for the weak and cares for the poor, you know? And it's like, okay, and maybe I can maybe, like... I think I'm trying to, like, lead breadcrumbs somewhere.

Seth: But, yeah.

David: But it's like if I add another component to this, it, we, might, this, the answer might become self-evident. That it's, uh, God cares for the poor, uh, or, like, why does God care for the poor? And we know that God is good.

Seth: Mm.

David: And it's like, okay, if God is all-powerful, yet good, if God did not care for the marginalized, the oppressed, the poor, could He still be good? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. I-

David: Now, uh, now obviously this is circ- a circular argument-

Seth: Right

David: ... because it begs, it, it, like, God is the very definition of good and evil, you know, based on who He is.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, but, uh, I just think, like, there's a comfort here I'm trying to get at, that, um, it is, it is such good news that God cares for the poor in His own character.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that He who has all power, all strength, all riches, um, and could wield it however He wishes, you know, that He does so and acts, like, with the least in mind.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because if He didn't, we would have a different kind of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.

David: Perhaps a tyrant.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And instead, we have a God who cares so much for the poor that He becomes like us and dies. You know, I'm just like, that, that, that's a God who can be a lion who roars and the mountains shake-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that you can still come up and hug like, like Lucy hugs Aslan-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... in Narnia. You know, like-Anyway, I'm just trying to like [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Deal with that.

Seth: I don't think that, I don't think I've ever... Like, it's one of those questions I never ask, like, "Why is God good?"

David: Right. It, I'm just, I'm getting philosophical-

Seth: Well, it's good

David: ... I realize. Yeah

Seth: I think it's, it's, it's forcing me to be like, okay, well, the reason I know God is good is because every time He reveals Himself throughout scripture, He reveals Himself as a good God.

David: Mm.

Seth: As a God who is mindful of the poor and the weak. I, it, this gets brought up at the end of the Book of Amos when Amos is begging for forgiveness and asking God to relent, and he says, "Israel is so small. Why did God choose Israel in the first place? Not because it was the strongest, but because it was the least of the people of the world."

David: Right. That's what he says in Deuteronomy for his reason why-

Seth: Yeah, Deuteronomy 7:7

David: ... he chose them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it's like there is like, when God chooses to reveal Himself, it is always towards the least-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that He does so. And the g- so, so the simple answer is the God revealed in scripture is a God who tends towards, who cares for and has compassion towards the poor.

David: Another way to word it, uh, would be-

Seth: Or uses His benevolence and generosity-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for the sake of those who have nothing.

David: Right. Another, another way to think about it is why does God care for the poor? And it's because that gets Him the most glory, is another way to think about it. It's how He is seen as most good.

Seth: Mm.

David: Because He is good.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And when people encounter Him, they will encounter Him as most good when He's good to those who the rest of the world say is undeserving.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Anyway. So there's, there's lots of different answers to this question.

Seth: Yeah. So maybe let's focus there then on how does the, the story of Jesus complete the idea of the God who's benevolent to the poor.

David: Yeah.

Seth: 'Cause I think there's, the, the other side of this is the God who hates injustice.

David: Which we'll, we'll get there.

Seth: But let's like, let's just land this plane.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So like, how does the God who cares for the poor, how is that God seen in Jesus?

David: Mm.

Seth: I mean, we already said it. He begins his ministry in Luke s- 4.

David: Luke 4, yeah.

Seth: "I have come to set at liberty the captives-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and to proclaim good news to the poor."

David: Right.

Seth: Jesus defines the coming of His own kingdom in terms of social justice.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Of justice towards those who've been marginalized.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, his ministry is done among the poor.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He ref- He kind of like controversially refuses to engage with the religious elite-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... preferring to engage with the, the, uh, the religiously, the religiously poor, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... the tax collectors-

David: Right

Seth: ... the prostitutes, the sinners.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, much of his healing ministry is done among widows-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... [laughs] like children. Like, I think you, it's pretty, I think most people, even non-Christians, come to the story of Jesus coming away with the idea that Jesus cared for the poor.

David: Yeah. They're, it's hard not to be moved by Jesus as a quote, and I hate, I almost don't even wanna say this, as a humanitarian.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Or, you know, it's like, and that's kind of where people stop. A lot of people stop-

Seth: Right

David: ... with Jesus there. Um, because you also run up into sayings of Jesus where He sounds more like the lion roaring. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You know, and it's like they wanna skip over those. Uh, but even the, just meditate on this for a second, it's like even the idea of Jesus is proof that God cares for the poor and the marginalized because-

Seth: Mm

David: ... Jesus as a named human, you know, didn't exist. You had God the, you had God the Son in eternity past, you know, living with the Spirit, you know, in the Trinity forever, and then He condescended-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to become like His creation. And to go back to what you said, if the act of creation itself is benevolent-

Seth: Mm

David: ... if the act of creation itself was-

Seth: So is the incarnation

David: ... was God pouring Himself into nothingness in order to give nothing something-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... then He takes Himself and puts Himself into that thing He benevolently created-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in his incarnation when He became human. And so even the humanity of Jesus-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is proof of God's love of the poor and the marginalized. Because as humans to the divine, we've talked about, like, inside humanity, there are the rich and the poor, the privileged and the marginalized.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? And that is true. I don't wanna negate that. But all of us together, collectively as humanity, are completely marginalized and less compared to God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And yet God entered into human poverty, into humanity, into finiteness and mortality.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? Like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that was the ultimate act of condescension-

Seth: I mean, that's-

David: ... capitalized by the cross

Seth: ... I mean, isn't that what, uh, Philippians says?

David: Yeah, "He made himself nothing, taking on the very appearance of man, um, and became obedient to death, even death on a cross," Ephesians or, uh, Philippians 2:9-12.

Seth: No, Paul t- Paul uses the language of, oh, no, y- y- "We know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ for, that for your sakes, He being rich became poor."

David: Became poor. There you go.

Seth: Right? So, yeah, so Paul talks about this in 2 Corinthians 8.

David: Yep.

Seth: And as a motivation for our own generosity to other people.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, h- Paul saw the incarnation-

David: As-

Seth: ... as an act of generosity.

David: Yes. Um, yeah, totally. The incarnation, yeah, is an act of the rich becoming poor.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. And then, um, and then you have all this, like, in the atonement, you know?

Seth: Yeah, so we, yeah, yeah, we had incarnation-

David: Incarnation

Seth: ... Jesus' birth-

David: His life

Seth: ... generosity. Life, generosity, and then His death.

David: Yeah, and His death in the atonement, the, so much of atonement theory and, like, the way the atonement is talked about, or to get out of my head here, the, how do you talk about Jesus saving us?

Seth: Mm.

David: What does it sound like? How do we explain how Jesus saves us? So much of the language is, um, e- economic language.

Seth: Redemption is a, is a-

David: That we were, we were, we were, we had a debt of sin.

Seth: Mm.

David: And, like, the only way to pay it off is with death.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

David: You know, like, Romans talks about that. Like, the wages of sin is death. That's economic language.

Seth: Yeah. Redemption is a, is from the slave market, so that's how you, like-

David: That's right

Seth: ... that's how you bought and sold slaves was with the word redemption.

David: Right. And, like, He paid our price.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know? Like-

Seth: The wages of sin.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's just, like, all of that is, like, Jesus, uh, being the r- the, the one who was rich in terms of His own goodness-Lavishly paid for the debts of the morally bankrupt.

Seth: Mm. Yeah.

David: And, like, that's another way that Jesus loves the poor.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh-

Seth: Not just-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the physically poor, but the, the morally-

David: The morally

Seth: ... morally poor.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think that's even, that's really... Uh, it's like, I think, um, I think the theological word is, like, totally depraved. [laughs]

David: Right.

Seth: The morally poor-

David: Mm

Seth: ... feels really r- like, uh, resonant within me in a way that I haven't felt before. It's like, oh, I'm morally poor.

David: Right.

Seth: I think I can identify with that really easily. Like-

David: The totally depraved. [laughs]

Seth: The totally depraved. Obviously, like, there's a theological truth there.

David: Yes.

Seth: But it's like there, like morally poor, yeah, I don't know what to do.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I recognize the way that I'm complicit in, in just systems.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I recognize the, the way that I've failed in all these-

David: A lot of my times, even my best actions have bent motives.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, I recognize that, like implicitly, being morally poor, and the idea of needing, like, a morally generous person-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to make up for my deficiencies feels like really good news.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and not one who just makes up for my deficiencies, but, like, cancels the debt.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, I know, like [laughs] we, we joke around the office about how I just keep a running list of things in my mind-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... of how I could be doing things better.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And I have this, like, running list of deficiencies in my mind, but like for that to be, like, objectively canceled-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is really powerful good news.

David: Yeah. That's very good news.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So yeah, God loves the poor, and Jesus proved it in his incarnation, life, death-

Seth: And then recreation

David: ... and then recreation.

Seth: Which will be the final act of generosity-

David: Generosity

Seth: ... towards the poor. The, the streets will be gold. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Yeah. The, uh-

Seth: Gold will be so commonplace, you'll just pave your streets with it. You'll walk on it. Uh, it's-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, I mean, I don't know if they, know if it'll actually be streets of gold-

David: Right

Seth: ... but it'll be better than streets of gold-

David: Oh, yes

Seth: ... regardless of what it is. Uh, but, like, it's an image of the divine generosity of God towards people who are poor.

David: Mm.

Seth: We don't deserve streets of gold. We don't deserve the very face of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We don't deserve a, a na- a, a city where the gates are always open and there-

David: Because there's no threat

Seth: ... 'cause there's no threats anymore. Like, I get the indulgence of God free-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in Heaven. Um-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's a big, big, it's a-

David: Well, and, like, I was also thinking about resurrection life as, as an act of generosity.

Seth: Mm.

David: That Jesus, because of his sinless life, was raised from the dead-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... as an act of God's vindication of an innocent, you know, sufferer, and he was clothed with immortality and radiance and glory.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And then 1 John 3:2 says that when we see him, when he returns, we'll become like him, and, like, Jesus will generously give us his own glorified form.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know, I'm just like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... there is an act of generosity, not only did he lay his life down, he then gives us his glorified life.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I'm like, man, he's just-

Seth: I was thinking-

David: ... unendingly generous

Seth: ... Ephesians 1, this goes back to redemption. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sin, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that He lavished-

David: Lavished

Seth: ... on us with all wisdom and insight, making known to the mystery of His will." Remember when we memorized this?

David: Yes. [laughs]

Seth: We, a w- a long time ago, our, like, little accountability group memorized the Book of Ephesians.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we performed it verbatim for our student ministry. [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Which was awesome.

David: It was awesome.

Seth: It was, it was-

David: That was fun

Seth: ... we should do something like that again.

David: We should.

Seth: Um, and I was also thinking, one other way that the theme of generosity plays into the story of the cross and God's care for the poor is that, is the idea of the host. Jesus is, will serve, will serve us at the wedding supper of the Lamb.

David: Just like he served the disciples at the Last Supper.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Jesus is a generous host-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to his people, and this is why the Catholics will refer to the mass, to, uh, the bread-

David: The, the-

Seth: ... and the wine-

David: ... Eucharist

Seth: ... the Eucharist, as the host.

David: Right.

Seth: This is the generosity of God in bread and wine, the eternal life of God, the, His blood and His life ingested into us to allow us to, empower us-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to live our lives now. Like, the fact, when you take communion on Sunday is another act of divine generosity towards the morally and physically poor.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, that's still happening.

David: Yeah. Okay, one thing, uh, just hit me. I'm gonna take a sharp turn-

Seth: Okay

David: ... which I think will take us into the judgment section. Uh, I was just thinking about, um, like, okay, w- we, this is all really good, and we're talking about, we're theologizing God's love of the poor.

Seth: Yes.

David: And like, that's really what we're meditating on, the nature of God, the good news of the gospel-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and, like, all this is-

Seth: "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God." With the, sorry. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: Just got, got... [laughs]

David: There's another one.

Seth: There's another one. [laughs]

David: But, like, we're, like, and that's all really good. What I wanna do here is, like, okay, that's who God is, but Israel was being indicted because that's who God is, but they weren't being like God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I'm just like, okay, can we stop for a second and just, like, mourn a little bit with Amos about how we sell the needy for a pair of sandals and, like, like, how much injustice and marginalization and oppression and subjugation is prevalent, not only in America, but all over the world? Like, it is an, we have an, we have a, a humanities-long [laughs] epidemic of economic, um, cultural, societal oppression. It's how we function as humans.

Seth: Yes.

David: We always build systems of oppression. Uh-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and, like, especially as people in America who are white and male, uh, it's very easy for us to forget that we are the ones who are probably closest to being in the center of Amos' crosshairs.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... not necessarily because, like, obviously it doesn't, you- you're not just automatically condemned because you're white and a man.

Seth: Right. [laughs] Yeah.

David: It matters how you live.

Seth: Yes. Yes.

David: [laughs] But, like, it's easy for us to forget that we even are complicit in systems of oppression because they're so far beneath us that we forget that, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... this cloak was taken as collateral.

Seth: Yeah.

David: [laughs]

Seth: People like to make fun of millennials like us for eating avocado toast, right?

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: That's, that's the joke, in your $5 avocado toast. And then, and we're so far remo- Uh, it's like, okay, fine, funny, funny, whatever. Well, did you know that, like, a lot of the avocado trade in Mexico-

David: Is run through the cartels

Seth: ... is run through the cartels, so buying $5 avocado toast is, you know, selling... is helping fund cartels in Mexico.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm so far removed from that reality-

David: Right

Seth: ... that it's like, oh, it doesn't matter anymore.

David: Right.

Seth: Like I'm not part of that system. Like, I am. Am I morally culpable? No, I don't think so. But, like-

David: Yeah, 'cause if you stop buying avocados, then thousands of farmers would be unemployed.

Seth: Right, right. [laughs] So it's like, what do I, so what am I supposed to do here?

David: It's such a complicated system we live in.

Seth: Yeah, and it's... I think, and I th-

David: Yeah, so I don't know why- [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I brought that up, but it's like... So, so there's, there's widespread epidemic of, of oppression and systems of oppression that we participate in that we need to be aware of and be asking questions about the w- the decisions we make, how we, where we buy our clothes, where we buy our food, and make the best decisions we can to be like God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in the world around us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Most of us won't be able to fix the cartel-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like, trade of avocado.

Seth: Or the, the Nikes that we're...

David: I mean, like, I was just thinking, like, you literally-

Seth: It's just a pair of sandals. [laughs]

David: Yeah. They sell the poor for a pair of sandals. We pay the poor a dollar and a half for our pair-

Seth: To make the sandals

David: ... to make the sandals.

Seth: Right.

David: Like we're not so far away from this.

Seth: That's right. And so it's like we need to be educated to know how we, you know, interact with these complicated economic systems of oppression and make the best choices we can to be God in the world, um, I think. And then, I was gonna say but also, I should say, and then, um, you need to look around you, you know, and, like, what are, like-

David: There, there are things closer to home-

Seth: Yes

David: ... than, like, sweatshops-

Seth: Yes

David: ... where injustice is rampant within our own society. The neglect of the poor-

Seth: Yes

David: ... happens ev- Like I neglect the poor when I'm at a stoplight.

Seth: Yes, like-

David: Not whenever I buy Nikes. Now, yes, maybe think about buying Nikes, [laughs] you know-

Seth: Right

David: ... whether that's a good or bad. Uh, like, but, like, I neglect the poor more at a stoplight, you know?

Seth: Right.

David: That, that's where it becomes a lot more visceral here.

Seth: Yes.

David: Or even, like, the f- A lot of churches will have, you know, compassion funds-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... or they, they serve the city, people serve the city through churches, but we fail to even give to our churches-

Seth: Right

David: ... that are providing for the city.

Seth: That's like-

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, it's like, yeah, it, it's like think about your own personal budget. You know? It's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... how much of your own person- personal budget is going towards yourself and, like, your, [laughs] you know-

Seth: Right. Or-

David: And how much is going towards others

Seth: ... to, to, to the morally and physically poor. Let me, let me ask a different question here.

David: Okay.

Seth: So it's like, I mean, it's like we could, like... Here's all the ways that I feel guilty for not-

David: Right

Seth: ... for not being more just and more-

David: Yes

Seth: ... equitable and more fair and for caring. Part of me still feels like what we do in neglecting the poor on the sidewalk is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from what happened on the ground in Israel-

David: Mm

Seth: ... during this, right? Um, and I'm like, I still feel a little disconnected, like, okay, what is injustice?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, and complicit in systems of avocados, that feels weird. I, I, you know, it's like I want, I want this to be concrete, and I want this to land.

David: 'Cause it doesn't, it doesn't feel like you have been having cultic sex with the-

Seth: [laughs] All the garments that I've stolen from the poor.

David: It doesn't feel like you actually engaged in slave trade or human trafficking, and you were selling them for a buck 50.

Seth: Right. And that stuff actually happens.

David: That stuff does happen. And so, like, it-

Seth: There was a guy in Edmond just a few days ago that got tr- like, got, a man and his wife-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that got busted for this.

David: Right.

Seth: Human trafficking underage kids.

David: Right. And so it's like at some sense we don't need to allegorize the injustice of Israel to then be like, so basically, you're a slave trader if you buy avocado toast.

Seth: Right.

David: That's not a helpful way to read scripture. Uh, what I... But on the flip side, I don't want us to just be like, well, then we don't need to think about it 'cause we're not as bad as those people.

Seth: Well, maybe-

David: Right, but get back to your question.

Seth: Yeah, so then let's just think, okay, Israel is the people of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The Church, Christians is the people of God. Israel as a nation failed their poor in this way.

David: Mm.

Seth: What does it look like for a church to fail its poor?

David: Mm.

Seth: Because that's, I mean, that's the cl- our closest parallel. Like, a church is an embassy of the Kingdom of God.

David: Yes.

Seth: A representative of the nation of the Kingdom of God here in wherever country you happen to be from, and it's supposed to care for its own poor.

David: Right.

Seth: So that's where the failure is gonna happen, right? Like, that's the closest analogy-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to what's happening in Israel.

David: We need... How, how are we as the Church representing God's justice in this world or failing to do so?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right?

Seth: I think that's closer to what our-

David: Well, and I think we said that earlier, where it's like, uh, or we set it up to say, is that, like, Israel's not only being judged because of what they're doing. They're judged because of who they are or who they're supposed to be.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They're God's chosen people.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, that title has passed to the Church.

Seth: Yeah, we've been saved by generosity.

David: Yes. How can we then not be generous?

Seth: Are our lives marked by the same generosity to the, the physically and the morally poor?

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: And I think that's probably the question that-

David: Yes

Seth: ... hits me deeply. Like, oh, if I've been s- if I'm like Israel being rescued from Egypt, and I've been saved by the gracious host, Jesus, ex- like, his lavish generosity-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is what has purchased for me a place in his kingdom, am I mirroring that?

David: Right. Yeah. And I think what I wanna say here, it, because this is something that's, it's deeply personal to me.

Seth: Yeah.

David: To go back to the beginning of the episode, when I was, um, in that social justice angsty time in college, um-I was doing social justice, when I, when I think back o-on it, I was doing social justice because I honestly, deep down, even subconsciously thought that if I didn't go downtown-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and feed the poor every day, I was going to hell.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because I was studying Amos. [laughs]

Seth: Right. Yeah.

David: And I was like, and I was like, "Oh, no, I'm a White man-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in America, I need to go be better."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, like, a-and I don't wanna, like, discredit that in a sense.

Seth: There was so, there was so... Angsty college David was feeling the weight of Amos at that point.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, he was feeling the weight of it.

David: But my response to it was not, I wasn't responding to God's generosity.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? I wasn't like, "Oh, God, save me through an act of generosity, like you saved Israel through the Exodus, therefore, God, mark me with your generosity." Like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... a-and so anyway, what I wanna say here is this, uh, as I've worked through that [laughs] and continue to work through that, the best advice I can give to everyone out there, those who are feeling complacent or apathetic, all the way to those who are feeling guilty that they're having avocado toast.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, the best thing I'd say to you is the path toward more justice in your life, the path to getting, like, more righteousness in your life, and more care for the poor in your life, is not forcing more social programs into your life.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, like, you know, making yourself do it because you have to. The, the, the path to embedding generosity into your life is to meditate on the generosity that's been given to you through Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, that's what Amos brings up here, is he's like, "Don't you know who you are?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Don't you know who your God is? Don't you know what that God did for you in the Exodus-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in saving you?" And it's like, the more we meditate on what Jesus has done for us by lavishing generosity on us in his incarnation, his life, his death, his resurrection, his new creation, like we just did-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the more we will be marked by generosity and want to live that out, and can't help but live it out. The lion has roared, and we must-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... speak. Like, w- like, Jesus has saved us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: How can we not love others?

Seth: Yeah. There will, there will come a time where an Amos-like man will roar the lion's audit over your generosity.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But the motivating factor is, who are you?

David: Yeah.

Seth: How have you been saved? What is God like? And then you move from that rather than from guilt, shame, or fear.

David: Yeah. So that's, I think that's good news to people feeling guilty. Um, the last thing we wanna talk about with g-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the g- the last bit of good news we wanna talk about here is, why is this text on its own good news that the oppressors will be judged?

Seth: Yeah, 'cause if we're gonna b- talk about, like, what's native to this text, it's all judgment. There's no-

David: There's, yeah

Seth: ... hint of God's generosity except the, the mention of the Exodus.

David: Yeah, we just, yeah, we just know he's, we're learning that he's generous, but his people aren't, therefore they're being judged.

Seth: I mean, I think it's good news that God can't stomach injustice and inhumanity.

David: It's j- yeah, it's really good news.

Seth: Um, I think it was Vo- Miroslav Volf-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who talked about, [clears throat] after, um, the, you know, the concentration camps in Germany.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He was a Jew, uh, in Croatia, I believe.

David: Yeah, he's a Eastern European Christian theologian.

Seth: Yeah. And he talked about how it, it was hard for him to understand American liberals', um, hesitancy when it comes to God's anger. Uh, he said that that's actually a place of privilege to th-think of God as not being angry.

David: That's right.

Seth: Because obviously, then, you've never actually experienced any sort of injustice.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, you need a God that's on the side of the victim.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: You need a God who's angry at abusers and human traffickers, and you don't want God to show mercy-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... towards people who have proven themselves merciless.

David: Right.

Seth: You n- you need that. So it's good news that God is on the side of-

David: The oppressed

Seth: ... the oppressed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: It's good news that wrongs will be righted.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's good news that those who have been shoved down to the bottom all their life with no chance of getting up will one day be lifted up.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's good news.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, for those of us who don't think that's good news, it's because we're probably on top.

Seth: Right, yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: But, like, isn't that, that, and so I just can't stop meditating on how good it is that God cares for the poor, 'cause God is on the tippy top.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And yet he knows intimately, it's in his very character, that he cares for the poor more than I ever will. And I'm just like, "God is so good." And he's good not only to care for the poor and lift them up, he's good to judge the oppressed, because a lotta times, you know, you look around, like, our cultures even, I mean, I was gonna say in America, but across the globe, oppressors are often celebrated, like, given positions of power.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, given leave from prison. [laughs] Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, a-and it's like they're excused and, you know. A-a-and it's like, man, when will certain political leaders finally be held accountable for the many wrong things they've done through policies they've passed, through, uh, trying not to be too specific.

Seth: Right.

David: But anyway.

Seth: Right.

David: You know what I mean?

Seth: Yes.

David: I'm r- I'm ready for that day.

Seth: I, yeah, I want that day, too.

David: I want that day.

Seth: Uh, I keep thinking about just the phrase, like, check your privilege.

David: Yes.

Seth: You know, that phrase, and I think it's fascinating. Like, if you don't believe God, if you think it's wrong for God to be angry-

David: Mm

Seth: ... you think it's wrong for God to be wrathful, you can't stomach the God of the a- who hates sin-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that's the checking your privilege moment.

David: Definitely.

Seth: That proves you don't have a category strong enough to handle the morally poor and the physically poor, and you need to do the work that Amos invites you to, to do-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and see God as someone who's generous towards the poor, wholly, like, committed to his justice being done on behalf of the poor, and coming to protect those who've been victimized and oppressed.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that type of work is probably the opposite side. Like, remember God's generosity towards you in the cross.

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: And understand that if you don't think God is angry, that is a function of your privilege.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yeah. Um-

David: Which is what Amos is bringing up to people.

Seth: Yes.

David: And I think another, a g- a good place in, a good place in the New Testament to land the plane here of the good news of God's judgment, um, Paul especially, uh, picks up on this idea that the reason why we as Christians can live in a fallen world, the reason why we can be persecuted for our faith, the reason why we can claim Jesus no matter who is watching, you know, uh, the reason why we can endure hardships and tribulation is because we know that one day God is going to vindicate us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, the reason why, uh, Paul in Romans 12 can say, "Do not repay evil for evil," right? "But overcome evil with good. If your enemy harms you, go bring him a meal." How can you do that if you're a Christian? Like, that's too hard.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's like, "The only way you can do that is because of this statement." He quotes the Old Testament. He says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's because of this truth here that we're seeing in Amos that God repays evil for evil, or, or God repays judgment against evil. God doesn't do evil. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: God repays, uh, evil with judgment. Um, that is the only way that we can live in an evil world.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Otherwise, like, if you're attuned to it, if you check your privilege and realize how hard and evil and corrupt the world is, how can you even wake up in the morning?

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's 'cause you know that a day of hope is coming-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... when the oppressors and the violent, when, like, the, the, the, the, what's, what's it called? Uh, the People's Liberation Army or the, or the, the-

Seth: PLO?

David: The, no, not the... You know what I'm talking about? The-

Seth: No

David: ... in Africa, the, the, um... Oh, my goodness, I'm s- showing my ignorance here.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Um, someone out there knows what I'm talking about.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, but it's like they, like, kidnap children and-

Seth: Boko Haram.

David: Oh, no, yeah, it's one of them. There's another one.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Anyway.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, but yes, like Boko Haram, for e- e- yeah, for example.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, how is that okay? How is that in the world?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, and, like, a lot of people, the problem of evil, you know, people, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... don't believe in God because of Boko Haram.

Seth: Right.

David: Because of the Holocaust.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, how can there be a good God if all this stuff is happening? And it's like, wait, wait, wait, you're not allowing the biblical God to tell you the whole story.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That Boko Haram, the Holocaust, and every single other evil that's ever been perpetrated on the face of this planet will be avenged.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, God will make it right.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, like, that's really good news.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Especially for the oppressed and also for the skeptic who just can't believe in God because of all the evil in the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So, um, anyway.

Seth: So let me ask you this.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Is the gospel a social thing or a belief thing?

David: [laughs] Uh, clearly, I think what we've stumbled into here is we're realizing that if we are people who have been uniquely saved by the generosity of Jesus, our marks, our, our marks, our lives will be marked by that kind of generosity.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Uh, the, you will know a tree by its fruit.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: To put it in James words, "Show me your faith without deeds, and I'll show you my deeds without faith," or whatever.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You know, it's like, it's like faith and deeds go together.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, you have to have both because, uh, o- o- one gives fruit to the other.

Seth: Yeah. And your lack of justice and your lack of generosity can actually be proof of your lack of faith.

David: Right.

Seth: It can be proof of your idolatry, which we'll talk a little bit about-

David: Right

Seth: ... next time, too.

David: Yeah. And the antidote to that is not to then go stack up works.

Seth: Yeah, the antidote is not like, okay, let me feel, make myself feel really, really guilty for being a white guy.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then do all this stuff to, like, push back that. That's not how you're saved.

David: Right. You're saved by running back to the source of generosity-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which is Jesus himself, and he will mark you with his generosity.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. Okay, well, that's Amos 1 to 2.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Next week, we'll be in 3 to 6.

Seth: That's right.

David: And we'll talk about the famous phrase from, that, that Martin Luther King even quoted, right?

Seth: Yeah. Uh, let-

David: Which-

Seth: ... uh, justice roll like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.

David: So I'm very excited to talk about that passage. So, uh, we'll see you guys next week to talk about that. Until then, be blessed.

Seth: See you.

David: Read Amos, and we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

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Why God's Care for the Poor Is the Best News You'll Ever Hear

Show Notes

A Shepherd Called to Shame the Powerful

Israel's Silver Age and the Roots of Injustice

God Roars: Judgment on the Nations

The Knife Turns: Judah and Israel Indicted

Why God Cares About the Poor — and Why That Is Gospel

Good News for the Guilty and the Oppressed

Related Resources

Introduction to Amos

View our devotional on Amos 1-2

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Amos 1-2: A Social Gospel? podcast

Listen to the Amos 3-6: Let Justice Roll podcast

Listen to the Amos 7-9: So Many Dead Bodies podcast