Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: Um, don't have COVID yet.
David: Well, okay. [laughs]
Seth: Well, [laughs] I'm just fading myself to the fact that I probably will get it at some point.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Um, I have had a cough-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is concerning because it is a primary symptom-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of having COVID, but it's not COVID. However, it's concerning-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to me that-
David: I mean, your cough's not gonna somehow develop into COVID. It's either COVID or it's not.
Seth: I mean, do we know? Does anybody know?
David: I-
Seth: Do scientists know? Does Trump know?
David: You have to stop.
Seth: Does somebody know [laughs] what's wrong with me?
David: So much misinformation.
Seth: [laughs] It's, uh-
David: You just triggered every listener. [laughs]
Seth: Perfect.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's what we needed before we go into Ezra and Nehemiah.
David: [laughs] Yeah, this is the... This is a very-
Seth: Triggering
David: ... or- or it's just a very... It was a very on-topic introduction.
Seth: Of course.
David: You know, [laughs] we also-
Seth: And my-
David: ... severely dated this episode, uh-
Seth: Yes, if you're wondering when we were recording this-
David: It's-
Seth: ... in the throes of a global pandemic-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... at an unspecified time, particularly-
David: I'm thinking more of the people-
Seth: I don't even know what the month is
David: ... who will come back and listen-
Seth: October
David: ... to this, like, years from now.
Seth: Like, "Oh, that happened."
David: And be, "Oh, right."
Seth: "There was a pandemic."
David: [laughs]
Seth: Unless, of course, we all die from the pandemic.
David: That would be, yeah.
Seth: Then nobody will listen to this years from now.
David: No, that's true. Well, this has been an upper of an opening.
Seth: 'Cause Ezra and Nehemiah are an upper of a closing.
David: They- they- they have some upper moments.
Seth: They have some upper moment. Ezra and Nehemiah are kind of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they're getting towards the end of Old Testament history.
David: Yeah, and, yeah, getting to... I mean, they're basically the end.
Seth: Right, so if you are just following the story from Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Judges, I and II Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah are the tail end. Like, they're in exile, and they come back to Jerusalem, and then we're about to get to 400 years of silence before-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Jesus comes back, so they're-
David: This is the... Yeah, the really, the last narrative touch-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the Old Testament has from cr- r- from a chronology standpoint.
Seth: Yep, Esther is kind of, like, uh, w-
David: In this time
Seth: ... in the same timeframe.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, Daniel was previous-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to this timeframe, so there's no, like, historical markers after this point except the Book of Malachi.
David: Yep, which is kind of contemporaneous with the very end of Nehemiah.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and the end of your Protestant ordering of the Bible-
David: That's right
Seth: ... if you're reading in a Protestant Bible. Uh, if you're reading in the Tanakh, 2 Chronicles is the end of the Bible, but-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, those are for different reasons.
David: Yes.
Seth: Regardless, uh-
David: So you've said a few times here Ezra/Nehemiah.
Seth: Yes.
David: What's going on there?
Seth: Well, so Ezra and Nehemiah are two books in most people's Bibles, but they're actually one combined work-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, in the original Hebrew.
David: Yes.
Seth: They were meant to be read together. They were written together, compiled together, um, however-
David: Yeah, and they function literarily together. They have patterns that each other complete. They are- they're- they should be read as one unit.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, so therefore, we will be treating Ezra/Nehemiah as one book, kinda like we did I and II Samuel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, although at times, just for clarity's sake, we might say, "So we read about in Ezra" or "We read about in Nehemiah"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just so you know where to find what we're talking about, but on, uh, you know-
Seth: On the-
David: ... as a, uh, as a general rule, it's-
Seth: It's one story
David: ... it's one story, one book.
Seth: So where are we then in just... So we've said we are in the end of biblical history.
David: Yes.
Seth: But what infor- what in biblical history is informing us in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... this particular moment?
David: So some really important things to remember. Let's go back to the monarchy.
Seth: Want to RTD?
David: Oh, we can.
Seth: Okay. [laughs]
David: Yeah, we can go-
Seth: We always go back to the garden. [laughs]
David: We-
Seth: It's not like that's where we go.
David: Let me, let me just keep things simple here.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Let's go back to the monarchy with David and his son Solomon, and then after Solomon's reign, you have the divided kingdom, which we talked about in our Kings podcast, and you have the Northern Kingdom with 10 tribes and the Southern Kingdom with two tribes. Um, all their kings are terrible pretty much, and, um, God brings both northern and southern kingdoms into exile through two different world powers. The Northern Kingdom and the 10 tribes there, which does not include Judah and Jerusalem, the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the northern tribes are taken away by Assyria, and, um, Assyria, uh, had a, uh, a kind of a scorched earth policy when it came to, uh, foreign policy. [laughs]
Seth: Sure.
David: They would, they would just decimate people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and basically try to wipe out your ethnic identity, and, um, and so as, so as people moved back into the Northern Kingdom, that became known as Samaria, and it was this kind of melting pot of, like, half Assyrian, half echoes of Judaism. Like, they were kind of, kind of like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's people, but not really, and they, they were very syncret-
Seth: They're on a very secret-
David: Yeah, syncretistic.
Seth: Lot-
David: Jinx. Syncretism jinx.
Seth: Do I owe you a, a Coke?
David: You owe me a, like-
Seth: An ancient-
David: ... a, a, a brewed coffee.
Seth: A brewed coffee.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Excellent. Um-
David: Yes
Seth: ... which is why when you get to the New Testament, there's all this tension-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with the Samaritan people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because they kind of threw the exile to the people in Jerusalem.
David: They lost their Jewish identity.
Seth: They lost their Jewish identity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so one of the things that Jesus is-Pushing up against
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's like, no, these are one people of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: All people are my people.
David: Right.
Seth: And so historically that's the form because of this, these exiles.
David: Yes. And so that, that's important because these Samaritans, if you will, that's not what they're called here in Ezra-Nehemiah, but this group of people are major players in this book. So then, um, years later, after the Assyrians perform the northern exile-
Seth: Sanballat is called a Samaritan.
David: Oh, great.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Thank you.
Seth: So one of the bad guys at the very end in-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Nehemiah, he's called-
David: He's identified.
Seth: He's called a Samaritan.
David: So there you go. Uh, and then in the southern kingdom, which is the, where the, the tribe of Judah is, which is very important for Ezra-Nehemiah, this is where the Messiah would come. This is the line of David. This is where the temple was, Jerusalem. You know, this is the southern kingdom. They were taken famously into captivity by the Babylonians, um, by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, and, um, that's where you get the story of Daniel and all that kind of stuff.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so they're taken away. Babylon had a different approach to foreign policy.
Seth: They kind of wanted to-
David: Assimilate you
Seth: ... assimilate you into their culture, and they also had a pr- a pretty, uh... Yeah, they wanted to assimilate you into culture.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's why they rename Daniel-
David: Yep, Belshazzar.
Seth: Uh, Belshazzar.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, is that, is that right?
David: Is that right? I, I think so.
Seth: Yes.
David: Anyway.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so they, yeah, and they would, like, have you read their material to become philosophically convinced that Babylon was just better.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, like, that was their, that was their tactic.
Seth: Yeah, Daniel 1, he's like, they bring him into the King's University, into, uh, into the King's University-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is what it says, to learn the language and the literature of Babylon.
David: That's right.
Seth: They essentially indoctrinated-
David: Yep
Seth: ... everybody that came in.
David: But at the end of Daniel, we hear that the Babylonian kingdom is going to fall by the hands of the Medes and the Persians.
Seth: Which happens.
David: Which happens, and not only did Daniel prophesy that, so did Isaiah. Jeremiah looked forward to this time, too.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the Persians come especially and take over Babylon, and instead of the, the Babylonian king, who was the last Babylonian king, Darius, or N- uh, or-
Seth: Darius.
David: Is that right? Anyway, at the end of Daniel, you have a king there. [laughs]
Seth: You got a king.
David: You got a king there, and he's replaced. And Cyrus, which should, if you've read Isaiah, set off some triggers for you, Cyrus is the king of Persia, the prophesied king of Persia, who is called God's Messiah even in Isaiah. And it was told that Cyrus would set Israel free from their captivity in Babylon and make a way for them to come back into Jerusalem and rebuild the temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm, and-
David: So this was all prophesied in Isaiah.
Seth: It was all prophesied in Isaiah.
David: It was prophesied in Jeremiah.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, and, and now, uh, so you have the people in Babylon, um, that now-
Seth: Belshazzar was the last-
David: Belshazzar
Seth: ... was the last Babylonian king.
David: Okay.
Seth: And Darius was the first Persian king.
David: Persian king. Okay, got it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Thank you. And so anyway, so they're in exile. They were in Babylon. Now they're technically in Persia, uh, because that's where they rule, or, yeah, that's who's taken over, and, um, what we then see are the efforts of God working behind the scenes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to influence the political leadership of, uh, Syria to allow, um, this remnant, this long-expected remnant, to return to Jerusalem.
Seth: And remnant just means a faithful pocket of people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that God will use to reinvigorate the Messianic line and bring about a new Jerusalem and all the hopes that have been in place since Genesis 3.
David: That's right. And so-
Seth: That the garden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... would be rebuilt in Jerusalem.
David: That's right. And, and so something else to just remember, so we've kind of talked about the landscape of exile. You know, they're in Babylon, which is now Persia, and that kind of stuff. Um, but something else to remember is, what's the landscape of Jerusalem look like? Like, it is a decimated city.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, the temple was completely burned to the ground. It's been ransacked. People, like, it, read Lamentations if you want a picture of what Jerusalem looked like. Babies are dying in the streets.
Seth: Yeah, Jerusalem has been, it's, it's unincorporated territory.
David: It's, like, bad news.
Seth: Nobody's ruling that land. It's been taken over by the Assyrians. Uh, then a transfer happened, and the Babylonians, and then the Persians. And it sounds like, essentially, like, the center of power was just never Israel again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: For several, for, how long were, was Israel in exile for?
David: Um, I mean, it, it's, it's debated.
Seth: It's-
David: But, like, 70 years is-
Seth: But-
David: ... like, the Jeremiah prophecy.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So they've been in exile for-
David: At least 70 years
Seth: ... at least 70 years, almost, let's just, a hundred-ish years.
David: Yeah, sure.
Seth: And they're, um, like, it's just been left undone, like, left uncared for.
David: Yes, which was prophesied in Deuteronomy-
Seth: It was
David: ... that the land would have its rest, and the ground would run wild, and animals would move in, and that would actually be Sabbath rest for the land.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, because the people's sin would no longer inhabit it, but then God would allow them to come back in the land and rebuild what was torn down.
Seth: So the picture you should have in your mind coming into Ezra-Nehemiah on the back end of exile-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is, one, you have a decimated capital city in which people are being allowed to go back into. God, just like Daniel kind of proves, is in control of the kings-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he has stirred up, in Ezra, uh, the first thing we hear is God stirred up Cyrus'-
David: Cyrus, yeah
Seth: ... heart to send a delegation of Jews back to Israel to rebuild their temple. Now, this wasn't nec- this wasn't him being-
David: Right, so-
Seth: ... a Yahweh follower
David: ... so we've talked about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Assyrians' policy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of, uh, of, like, how they took over. We talked about the Babylonians' policy. The Persians' policy was very interesting, and it plays a big role here in, in the sinful motivations of the different kings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to allow Israel to go back to, to, to their land. They, it was their policy that let's let indigenous people live in their lands and worship their gods-
Seth: And pay taxes
David: ... and pay taxes because what's happening there is we are going to then allow every indigenous people group to-Pray to their god to bless the king of Persia. So let's get as many gods as we can worshiped properly and, and implicated, you know, or, or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's the, impr- imprecated or, what's the word I'm looking for here?
Seth: Supplicated?
David: Asked.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Asked.
Seth: Let's use that word.
David: Imprecated. Asked to bless the king of Persia.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he was like, his goal was to get lots of gods on his side. And so for him, Yahweh, the God of Israel, was just another one of those gods-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and he was going to allow the people to go rebuild the temple and then earn favor for his kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's what's happening here.
Seth: So he, yeah, so he-
David: But God's using that sinful inclination for His own purposes.
Seth: There's a really good analogy in kind of the way, like, that type of pluralism-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, this, like, pagan, polytheistic pluralism that existed in ancient, uh, Mesopotamia-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is kind of paralleled today in the way that China has treated Christianity.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, when we, I was, spent some time in China and Hong Kong, and one of the most fascinating things that we learned was, like, the government controls things fairly tightly, but has allowed Christianity to flourish in some of its major cities because in America, America's a Christian nation, and it's experienced a whole bunch of financial success.
David: Mm.
Seth: So some of our friends on the ground, it's like, yeah, like, they allow it to a certain extent because they see in the West that capitalism and Christianity brings about economic success. Like, well, why not just let Christianity flourish to a certain degree so we can be successful like America?
David: Interesting.
Seth: Like, bizarre-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but that's exactly what's happening here in this book.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're using the gods of other nations to prop up their own nation.
David: Yeah. So that is basically the history that happens that leads us into the opening of Ezra. [gentle music]
Seth: Okay, so that's the kind of physical, geographic, geopolitical history happening-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the background of Ezra and Nehemiah. There's also a whole bunch of theology-
David: Theological history
Seth: ... theological history that's also informing the Book of Ezra-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and Nehemiah. Um, and what I mean by that is, uh, specifically the prophet Jeremiah, uh, as a starting place. So Jeremiah was right before this time, and bleeding into this time somewhat.
David: Jeremiah?
Seth: Yeah, or he, he died before.
David: No, he, he's dead.
Seth: Okay, he died.
David: He did. Yeah.
Seth: He did. But Jeremiah prophesied-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... about a time while Israel was in exile that they would return to Jerusalem, that they would rebuild a new Jerusalem, and that while they were in Jerusalem, God would remake their hearts-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in such a way that they would no longer disobey, but all the intuitions of their heart would be to obey God and to obey His Torah, and that God's garden kingdom would be built again-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in Jerusalem.
David: And it would be facilitated by a new covenant.
Seth: And a new covenant.
David: Yeah. You might know this prophecy more than you think you do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, it starts with, "For I know the plans I have for you," says the Lord, "plans to give you hope and a future." This is Him talking to people going into exile, so it's like, it's actually kind of a haunting thing 'cause it was gonna be, like, 70 years later that this hope would finally happen. So imagine being a 40-year-old being like, "Hey, man, God has plans for you, plans for hope and a future." It's like, yeah, but, uh, I'll be 110 and dead and [laughs]-
Seth: Yes
David: ... so this was hope for the remnant.
Seth: And in Ezra 1:1, it tells you-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that you need to have that in your mind. It says this: "In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus so that, and he made a pr- proclamation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... throughout the land to send people in Israel." So Ezra is writing, uh, as if Jeremiah's prophecies are coming true.
David: Yes, because they are.
Seth: Because they are.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's a huge expectation that what's happening right now is the new covenant, the rebuilding of the new Jerusalem, a new covenant, new hearts, like, God is gonna live with His people once again.
David: Yes, and so to set all that off and to heighten this moment of God saving us from our enemies, He's bringing us into our land, He's going to display power, He's going to make a new covenant with us and give us His law again-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... this, the, this is the Exodus story all over again. And so they-
Seth: Oh
David: ... they pull-
Seth: Right
David: ... um, the authors of Ezra, Nehemiah-
Seth: They were a slave to one nation.
David: Yes.
Seth: They're gonna go out into the wilderness, back into the Promised Land-
David: Yes [laughs]
Seth: ... in which they're gonna s- h- experience the presence of God in the temple like Israel did on Mount Sinai-
David: Yep, build the temple-
Seth: Rebuild the temple
David: ... which happened in Exodus.
Seth: And then get a new law.
David: Yes.
Seth: So it's-
David: That's-
Seth: Even just, like, on a sh-
David: [laughs]
Seth: The most meta of levels, it sounds a lot like the Exodus story. But what you're saying is, like, even deeper within the weeds of the story?
David: Even deeper in the weeds of the story, the authors are giving you, like, literary handholds to make sure you don't miss that theme.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and so, I, I mean, I could go through all of them, but I mean, even what you've said, the fact that they, that you have a king who is sending him, letting their, letting his people go, in a sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And when they go, just as they did out of Egypt, there's this despoiling of the nation. So in Egypt, they leave with a bunch of gold and things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that people just give them.
Seth: Yep.
David: And it's like, why did the inhabitants of Egypt give them all this gold and, and cloth and everything as they were leaving? No one knows. God moved on them to do it, and the same thing happens here. As, uh, uh, as Zerubbabel and Ezra and Nehemiah all make their journeys to Jerusalem, the kings who send them also fit them with tons of free goods.
Seth: 30 basins of gold.
David: [laughs]
Seth: 1,000 basins of silver, 29 censers, 30 bowls of gold, 410 bowls of silver, 1,000 other vessels.
David: [laughs]
Seth: All the vessels of gold and, and of silver were 5,400.
David: Right. And so that's what, that's therefore i- i- from a theological sense is-
Seth: It's like, oh, this is a repetition of what happened in Egypt.
David: Yes.
Seth: When they left slavery-
David: Right
Seth: ... they also got a whole bunch-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of treasure.
David: And if you'll remember-It is those very materials that they took from the Egyptians or were given from the Egyptians that they used to build the tabernacle
Seth: Yep
David: and the priestly garments. That's exactly what's happening here. The reason why these resources were given to Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah were to rebuild the temple of God, and so it's like that is the point [laughs] is this is a new exodus. So, like, they even come into, you know, they come into the land, um, uh, you wonder why there's... If... As you read through, you're gonna notice in Ezra and Nehemiah a ton of genealogies. Now, there's other reasons for those that we need to talk about, but part of them is as a repetition of, like, some of the censuses and numbers.
Seth: Book of Numbers, yes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, oh, this is like, oh, just like when they were counted around the, the tent-
David: The... Exactly
Seth: ... in the wilderness, they're being counted here.
David: Yep, and so anyway, without getting too much into the weeds, the point is obvious. It's that God is wanting His people to see this as the new salvation moment of His people. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... He is saving them again. He's bringing them into the land again. This is the new stake-in-the-ground moment for the history of Israel, a second exodus, if you will. Yep.
Seth: So why do... So question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why, like, either literarily or historically is it important that we know that the exodus be, is being repeated?
David: Hmm. Well, I think, I think one is because, um, if your temple was destroyed and, and y- we, we don't really have a parallel for this in the modern mind, um, but a temple is not like the White House. You know? Like, people are like, "How do you mil- build an analog for the temple being destroyed?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, oh, well, what if the White House was destroyed? Not the same thing at all.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We'd build another one. Uh, you can't build another temple in another place, you know, and it's, it- it's just not even the same thing because God must sanction the building of His temple, and then He must fill it, and it must be in a specific place that He said it would be there. And so in the, in the ancient Near Eastern mind, for a temple to be destroyed is almost like the death of God. It's basically like Yahweh dying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you, you no longer have access to Him, or at least, if not dying, abandoning you. He's gone.
Seth: And particularly within Israel, where you only had one place of worship.
David: And with one god.
Seth: With one god. That's what that implies.
David: Yes. And, yep.
Seth: Because the other gods would have had dozens and dozens-
David: That's right
Seth: ... thousands and thousands of temples.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh-
David: But now our access to divine is gone. It's absolutely gone.
Seth: Particularly for a Hebrew, it's like when God's temple is destroyed-
David: Yes
Seth: ... God is dying.
David: And so what, why it's so necessary for them to not only have Jeremiah's prophecy, to know that they're coming back into the land, that could still feel like a very human engine. You know, it'd be like, "Well, I guess it's 70 years, and we just came and rebuilt some bricks." No. A- as Ezra and Nehemiah are showing the people of Israel that this is the new exodus, and they're helping us see behind the theological scenes at what's happening in the divine realm, that God is the one animating all this action-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they're able to see that, once again, God is on our side, that the covenant is still valid, that God still loves us, has chosen us, is for our good, is doing something.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's not abandoned us, even though the temple is gone.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, this is, like, a theological-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... affirmation to the people of Israel that God is still with them.
Seth: Uh, I also think, like, even maybe, like, on a more visceral or personal level, I think, what was one of the commands that Moses gave to the people of Israel?
David: Hmm.
Seth: To, uh, remember the Passover.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so potentially for 100 years, they've celebrated the Passover and only ever remembered it. It's like, "Oh, this is why we got let out of the land of Egypt."
David: Right.
Seth: "This is why this happened. This is why this happened." But I could imagine, um, being an Israelite child in Babylon-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or in Persia-
David: Right
Seth: ... thinking, like, "Well, that just doesn't apply to me anymore."
David: Right.
Seth: The situations are too different.
David: It's like A Christmas Story.
Seth: 'Cause, like, in one... Yeah, it's, yeah, it's like A Christmas Story.
David: Yeah, it's like, oh, cool, so, like, Saint Nicholas comes down the chimney and, you know. [laughs]
Seth: And even, like, as you got more theologically astute, like, there are some major differences between the slavery in Egypt versus the slavery in Babylon. The slavery in Egypt was oppression.
David: Yeah. They just-
Seth: They just got taken over.
David: This is theological punishment. God is punishing Israel for their-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... disobedience.
Seth: Yeah, God sent the army-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... handed them over to this army, and-
David: And they have all these prophets standing against them
Seth: ... saying, "If you, you're not obeying, this is the reason-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... why this is happening," so.
David: So, like, they feel cut off.
Seth: So they feel cut off, and it's like, okay, yeah, we're enslaved, but, like, maybe that's the end.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, Jeremiah talks about it as a divorce, right?
David: Right. Yes, yes.
Seth: It's like, uh, you're cut off, like the, we're no longer in relationship with one another.
David: That's right.
Seth: So I think maybe, uh, even a more visceral reason why the story of the exodus needs to be repeated, just to say it a different way-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is, like, because they didn't believe it applied to them anymore.
David: They thought they were divorced.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the reason the exodus story is being repeated is so that, and, like, contextualized for a new generation is so that this new generation know your sinfulness does not negate the faithfulness of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His salvation is still for you, so let's play it out. There'll be this liberation moment as you leave Persia. The... Is there a sea parting at any point in the Book of Ezra and Nehemiah?
David: No, but they-
Seth: Okay
David: ... I think there are some, like, y- it would necessitate... Oh, no, they do. No. Oh. Oh my gosh, of course there is. There's not a sea parting moment, but there is a geographical term that's used over and over and over again, uh, to identify where they are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's the land beyond the river.
Seth: Oh, so it's like the, the-
David: And the Jordan River is the, uh-
Seth: Boundary line
David: ... like, the paradigmatic boundary marker for being in or out of the land, and so to say something is the land beyond the river is to say there is, there is the land of Canaan, the promised land, and there is not. And to be able to be identified as people who are in the land beyond the river or outside the land beyond the river-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is very theologically significant.
Seth: So the reason the exodus is being repeated is because these new people need to know-That God is still for them despite their disobedience.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, last thing, last theological history i- and we've mentioned it a few times here, um, is, ah, the, the idea of why is this land and this space so important? And it goes all the way back, now we can go back to the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Genesis?
David: Yeah. Yeah.
Seth: Wait. We go all the way back there?
David: We go all the way back this time-
Seth: Man
David: ... 'cause, uh, we're doing-
Seth: It's an important part of Bible history
David: ... theological history now. And, um, the whole point of creation was for man and God to live together and, uh, to live it, to live in this land temple, like this place where God could be and man could be and they would work and tend together. And we, we were removed from that place because of our sin, just as Israel was removed from the Promised Land because of their [laughs] sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But the Promised Land was ultimately given as, uh, the new Eden project to remake the Garden of Eden and be a physical location where God and man could dwell together. But it failed in its first iterance, or it- iteration.
Seth: Iteration.
David: Um, and we just had a repeat of the fall in the exile. Uh, just as Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, you have the Israelites getting kicked out of Canaan, but now with us coming back in with a new Exodus story, the Garden project can begin again. Can man live with God once and for all is the question. [laughs]
Seth: And this is probably where it's most helpful then to pull in the prophets.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because so while the sto- the history of Ezra and Nehemiah is happening, the books of Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi kinda loom in the background-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of everything happening here. So as you, kinda like the way you read Kings-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and, like, there was, like, a narrative moment, and then a prophet would show up and speak against the kings and prophesy about the future-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and like-
David: And it would kinda let you see behind the scenes of what was actually happening in God's eyes-
Seth: Yes
David: ... with the kings.
Seth: And you read it all kinda like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like through the book. In Ezra and Nehemiah, you have the narrative in one book and then those prophecies in three other books.
David: Right.
Seth: And so you kinda almost wanna read them on top of one another-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and, like, restack them and rejigger them to get that same Kings experience. The point is what are those prophets prophesying during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah? Everything that you just said.
David: Right.
Seth: Zechariah says that there will be a messianic figure-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who will ride in on donkey into Jerusalem and he will make Jerusalem into that new land temple where there's streams of living water rushing from it. Like, like, like [laughs] I-
David: I know I'm gonna get off topic. Just let me do it for one second.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
David: I just think it's funny with Zechariah's prophecy about a king riding in, you know, to the land, uh, like, and he'll enter through this gate and everything, and then when Nehemiah comes in on his one animal to enter through the gate, it says that the gate was so broken that he couldn't enter into it. [laughs] And anyway, I just thought that was funny.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: It's just like, hey, I guess he wasn't Zechariah's dude. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Anyway. Yes.
David: But yes, he's doing that. Haggai is prophesying all kinds of things-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... about, like, we must finish the temple 'cause only the foundation is laid, and people are getting discouraged. We gotta finish it. God wants you to finish it.
Seth: Like if-
David: He wants to dwell with you
Seth: ... that's exactly right. So, like, all those things are happening behind the scenes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the reason why all that's kinda happening is because if Ezra and Nehemiah, with the help of Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, do not do what they're doing in the book-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus, the stage is not set for Jesus. So think about this. So it's like we don't have a Jerusalem anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: We don't have a land of Israel anymore. We don't have a temple anymore.
David: Yep.
Seth: We have a small band of people sent by Persia.
David: Right.
Seth: That's all we have. So when Jesus comes and he talks about the, himself being the temple or the land of Jerusalem extending out throughout the rest of the world, none of those prophecies make sense unless what Ezra and Nehemiah are trying to do is successful.
David: That's right. There would be no temple for Jesus to compare himself to if Ezra and, and Zerubbabel hadn't rebuilt the temple.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right. So, like, Ezra and Nehemiah are setting the stage for Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: They have to rebuild the walls and the gates for Jesus to walk through the, or to ride through them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on the donkey. Like [laughs]
David: Right, or to be crucified outside the city walls as was prophesied.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, they are literally building the stage on which the gospel will take place.
Seth: Which is exactly what the prophets prophesied.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like the reason why, Ezra, you must rebuild, or Zerubbabel, actually-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you must rebuild the temple, and Ezra, you must teach the Torah, and N- uh, Nehemiah-
David: Nehemiah, you must build the wall
Seth: ... you must build the walls, is because when you do these things, you are preparing the new Jerusalem.
David: Yes.
Seth: You are preparing the way for the new Messiah. Have hope. Your things are not in vain.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Your efforts are not in vain. Like, the enemies are great, but God is coming.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, that's the message of the prophets.
David: Right. The irony there, though, is, I think, interesting, and it's that, um, I, I think if you would've asked Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah-
Seth: We haven't mentioned Zerubbabel, but he's-
David: We'll get there.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. But he's a guy.
David: Yeah. If you would've asked them, "What is the point of your efforts?" You know, it's so that the Messiah may come. You know, and they kind of vie- I think they would have viewed the building of the temple, the construction of the walls, the keeping of the Torah as the way the new kingdom would come. You know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the, and the way they, they would be liberated from their enemies, the way that they would rule and reign on the earth again as God's co-kings and all this stuff.
Seth: Yep.
David: But the irony is when Jesus comes, um, he ends up being crucif- being killed outside the city walls. Um, he ends up-
Seth: Tearing down the temple
David: ... he ends up tearing down the temple.
Seth: The Torah's fulfilled in him.
David: In him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because no one could keep it, and it's like there's this juxtaposition between-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the efforts of man in Ezra, Nehemiah, and the final efforts of Jesus.
Seth: Uh, they mis- they misinterpret their actions as bringing the kingdom of God.
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: But they're preparing the way for the-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... kingdom of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's kind of more like, they're more like John the Baptist than Jesus himself.
David: Than Jesus. [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Exactly.
Seth: Uh-
David: So I just thought that was an interesting iro- irony.
Seth: It is iron- ironic, and I mean, Malachi, Zechariah, and Haggai kind of make you expect that's what, what's happening. And-
David: They do, yep
Seth: ... Zechariah, uh, it's, uh, I mean, he's, they think-It's Nehemiah that rides in on the donkey.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Or, yeah, and I think Haggai thinks it's Zerubbabel.
Seth: Yeah, and, and Zechariah, again, there's this huge image which are pictures of, uh, Zerubbabel and Joshua, who is the high priest-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as these, like olive trees-
David: Yes
Seth: ... producing oil, lighting the flame of Israel forever.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: If they're stay faithful and depend on the spirit-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel will last forever. So it's like, these are the, these are the messiahs, right?
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, you have all these really intense messianic hopes placed on Zerubbabel, uh, Nehemiah, and Ezra. Oh-
David: Pr-
Seth: Right.
David: Yes, and if you don't have the reins- the reinstating of Israel as, and Jerusalem as a capital and Israel as a nation, you don't have a place for Jesus to be king, in a sense.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: You know, like how can you be a king of the Jews if there was no Jewish nation for him to rule over?
Seth: Right. So it's like the-
David: You know, 'cause at the end in Nehemiah, uh, you know, like there, there's a king kinda named at the end-
Seth: There is a king named
David: ... of, of the book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, so I just forgot about the kingdom side of it too.
Seth: So what's happening, then, so wha- what's the point of all this theological history about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... land and temple and all this kind of stuff? Well, and why bring in all the prophets at this moment as well-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is because all of this communicates and sets the stage for the Messiah to arrive.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That you, the people existing at this time thought the Messiah would be Zerubbabel.
David: Right.
Seth: They thought it would be Ezra. They thought it would be Nehemiah. But what they were really doing was preparing the way for the Messiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They were making a nation for the Messiah to rule. They were making a temple which could be filled.
David: Yes.
Seth: They were making a, um, walls that the Messiah could walk into and like-
David: And rule inside of
Seth: ... rule inside of.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like that's what's happening. Without Ezra, Nehemiah, we really don't have a gospel.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, so yeah.
David: Yeah, it's very interesting. Okay. Well, we've kind of done all the background, the, the, the history, the theological history. Now we need to jump into the book itself. [upbeat instrumental music] All right. So now let's get into the book and let's talk about the main structure, which I think is really helpful for me.
Seth: It's super helpful.
David: Uh, you have three cycles-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that follow three men sent by three kings. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, accomplishing three different things.
David: Accomplishing three different things. So first you have Zerubbabel, then you have Ezra, then you have Nehemiah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and res- and respectively, you have Zerubbabel rebuilding the temple, Ezra reestablishing the people of God as obedient to the Torah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and Nehemiah rebuilding the walls. So you have, let me say it again. Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah. You have temple, people, walls.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's just helpful.
Seth: So helpful.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And that brings you all the way up to, uh, chapter eight of Nehemiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in chapter eight through 12, you kind of have this concluding, um, section-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which kind of just rehashes all the obedience that you read about-
David: Yep, it's like a victory lap
Seth: ... in the book. It's like a victory lap.
David: There's even, there's even tons of musicians and marches.
Seth: It's a celebration.
David: It's a celebration.
Seth: It's a celebration.
David: It's a parade.
Seth: It's wh- That's when they celebrate the Feast of Booths, right?
David: I think so, yeah.
Seth: It's like there's this, like-
David: Yep. Yeah
Seth: ... oh, it's a party.
David: It's a party time.
Seth: It's happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the, then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the last chapter-
David: 13
Seth: ... uh, kind of undermines everything that you've already read.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, and we'll get to that in just a moment. But like, and it's, it basically says that everything that Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah accomplished is undermined within the space of a few years.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Nehemiah essentially makes three prayers, one for each era and for each man and for each project, lamenting what's happened and asking God to be merciful.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's the way the book ends.
David: Yes.
Seth: We'll get there.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh-
David: But that's the structure.
Seth: That's the structure. And so what happens?
David: So, like, first off, we need, so we have Cyrus, who, uh, at the very beginning, who was the king prophesied-
Seth: Oh
David: ... by Isaiah. Yeah?
Seth: I was gonna say, and each one of those three sections-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is, uh, uh, structured the same way within the section.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So what happens is you have a pagan king-
David: Yep
Seth: ... sending out, uh, an edict of people to go to Jerusalem.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Then you have opposition while they are in Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then you have a victory over that opposition.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that three-part structure obtains for each of the three parts and each of the three projects.
David: Yes. And each one-
Seth: Sending out-
David: And each one ends with, like, repentance, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And, like, success.
Seth: Uh, yeah, success over their enemies and faithfulness to what God had called them to do that moment.
David: Yes, whether it would be temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... people, or walls.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. Okay. That's very helpful. So really, you're reading the same story in a sense three times.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But obviously, it's progressing the narrative, and they interrelate in different ways. Uh, there's also some really interesting political correspondence that happens throughout.
Seth: Yeah, one of the theories about how Ezra was written-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because these are three, uh, deputies of the Persian king, it's like these are their reports to the Persian king that they had to send back to him. Like, "Okay, you sent us with all this materials. We used all those materials for this people. Here's how many people came with us. Here, Persian king, now you know what we did." And then later they came back, and then they added in all the theological importance of everything. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: "Don't you know that this report about how many bowls we got actually fulfills the Exodus story for you?"
David: Right. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, that's the way, like-
David: Yeah, like taking some of their political correspondence letters and putting them in their memoir, you know-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and being like, "And then we, we got this letter back, but here's what it meant."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. It's, it is an interesting way that it could have been, it could have been written.
Seth: Um, so the first cycle, then, is Cyrus sending out Zerubbabel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... along with, uh, several thousand people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to-
David: So, and these are the ones that the h- that the spirit of God moves in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that causes them to want to go to the dilapidated city of Jerusalem. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: It's not, I mean, this is not a place you would wanna go.
Seth: No, it's not.
David: You know, i- i- from strictly secular terms. But, uh, anyway, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh.
Seth: And th- th- that word stirred up-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is used of Cyrus. God stirs up Cyrus' heart to send them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then Haggai will say that God stirred up the people's heart-
David: Oh
Seth: ... to go back.
David: Yes.
Seth: So there's parallels there. And-Funny story. Remember how Jeremiah sets the backdrop for this?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And one of his main prophecies with that Israel be, would be uprooted.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Right, yes.
Seth: And then God would replant them.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Zerubbabel means planted-
David: [gasps]
Seth: ... in Babylon.
David: What?
Seth: So he, the man planted in Babylon is going to replant Jerusalem.
David: Oh, that's beautiful.
Seth: So-
David: I did not know that
Seth: ... fun little-
David: That's a fun one.
Seth: Fun little thing.
David: Uh, so something el- else interesting other than Zerubbabel's name is Zerubbabel's great-great-great-great-granddaddy.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Who is?
Seth: I forgot.
David: David. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] That's right. I forgot. Because that's important-
David: It's very important
Seth: ... because Zechariah picks up on that fact-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and casts Ze- um, uh-
David: Zerubbabel
Seth: ... Zerubbabel as the new messianic king who will come in on a donkey and, like, reinvigorate Israel and let their flame last forever.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's right.
David: So as we talked about earlier, all these heightened expectations, that this was gonna be the new Jerusalem, and the kingdom was gonna come back, and everything was gonna be fulfilled, is heightened even more by the fact that Zerubbabel is David's son. Like, he's in the line. If you remember 2 Samuel 7, God promised that someone from David's line would sit on the throne of Israel forever, and it's, oh, it could happen.
Seth: It could happen.
David: And he's the one who plants.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Zerubbabel goes in-
David: Yep
Seth: ... planting, fulfilling Jeremiah, fulfilling messianic prophecies, and immediately, he's met with opposition from the people of the land.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, so does that mean, uh... I was like, who are the people of the land? Is that, like, just, like, random tribes? Is that Jews who never left? Is that-
David: It's most likely, at least from what I've read, is, like, the syncretistic Sama-
Seth: Samaritans
David: ... Samaritans.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes.
Seth: So anyway-
David: 'Cause they, they claim that they've been worshiping God all along. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... and he says, "No, you haven't, because you haven't been doing it the way that is prescribed by the law." And so he actually casts them out and say, "You can't help us rebuild the temple because you're unclean-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we need clean hands only rebuilding the temple 'cause we're gonna do it the right way."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so these are probably the syncretistic Samaritans.
Seth: Okay. That's helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then what happens, the opposition is in the form of a series of letters.
David: Ooh, a letter-writing campaign.
Seth: A letter-writing- [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's a good Parks and Rec quote.
Seth: It's a great quote.
David: Parks and Rec quote.
Seth: And what's funny about this letter-writing campaign-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that it either foreshadows or looks back to-
David: Esther
Seth: ... the story of Esther.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what's, so Esther actually happens later on in the narrative.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Uh, so, like, she's not, uh, Artaxerxes is-
David: Right
Seth: ... not in power yet.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, uh, this is, uh, Cyrus who's in power.
David: Mm-hmm. Probably two kings prior or, or more?
Seth: I think it's, I think it's Cyrus, Darius, uh-
David: Or Darius, Cyrus. Anyway, regardless, it's not at the same time.
Seth: We should know our history a little-
David: We should know our history better
Seth: ... a little bit better. We're theologians, guys. Histor- history is-
David: Historians, just not our thing
Seth: ... just, just we can't-
David: We tried
Seth: ... keep up with it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: But yes-
Seth: So-
David: ... this is a theme in Esther
Seth: ... this is, and a theme in Esther, and what happens is that, um, an edict is written down-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, that says, C- King Cyrus writes down an edict-
David: Er-
Seth: ... that says, "The Jews must go back to Israel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and they need to, uh, rebuild their temple."
David: Yes.
Seth: Now, when they get to Israel, all these people of the land send a letter back to Persia saying, "Appeal to your records, because if you knew better, you would know that these people are seditious."
David: Yeah, they always are seeking to overthrow kings and set up their own kingdom, and they're like a wild mule. You can't tame them.
Seth: You can't tame them, so you better be really careful-
David: Yep
Seth: ... th- in what you're doing here. So they send the letter all the way back, and it gets back to Persia. Now, King Cyrus, at this point, is, um... Now, I, I, I keep getting confused on my kings. So I'm like-
David: Well, it's confusing as you're digging through your Bible to just, I can note this for the, for our listeners here, that Ezra-Nehemiah is not written chronologically. It's written... It's ordered by theology and a message. It's not ordered by chronology. And so, like, you will kinda stumble back and forth between kings and timelines because they're not trying to recount exactly what happened in a, in, like, a sequence of events. They're trying to tell you a theological story.
Seth: And so, well, then, uh-
David: That's why you're getting... [laughs] That's why it's very easy to get tripped up on kings and everything.
Seth: And what's funny is then is, like, that letter that they sent back saying, "Hey, haven't you checked the records yet?" actually goes to Xerxes.
David: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]
Seth: So it goes to Xerxes, and Xerxes looks back through the, the records of the court and is like, "Oh yeah, they, they have been a problem in the past."
David: [laughs]
Seth: So they send an emissary out to investigate the situation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They get there, and then Israel writes its own letter-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and says, "No, no, go back and appeal to the records of the court, and you'll find that Cyrus told us we could do this."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they go back and they realize, "Oh, he did, so you guys can go ahead and do it."
David: You're grandfathered in.
Seth: You're grandfathered in. It's fine. Now, what's funny about that whole opposition and that whole, uh, resolution to the opposition is that the story of the Book of Esther centers around an appeal to the records of the court.
David: Right.
Seth: So if you remember back to our Esther podcast or just from the story of Esther, King Xerxes can't sleep one night.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So he has the records of the court read to him in which he finds out that Mordecai, a Jew, had saved him but not been celebrated for it. Haman comes in expecting to be celebrated himself, and the roles switch, and Haman ends up dying-
David: Right
Seth: ... while Mordecai gets, ends up getting, um, exalted.
David: Right, and there's two edicts going on there.
Seth: And there's-
David: The first edict that Haman sent out was to kill all the Jews.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then after this turn of events because of the record of the kings-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... Mordecai gets to draft a new letter that gets sent out that saves all the Jews.
Seth: Yep, and Ha- and what, here's the, here's the, here's the clincher.
David: Here's the-
Seth: So if that doesn't convince you already about these letter-writing campaigns, multiple edicts, the center of the Book of Esther is this, the discovery th- of a record of a court. Um, the, the consequence that Haman wrote for the Jews-
David: Oh, I forgot about this
Seth: ... is that they should be impaled on a pole.
David: Right.
Seth: But-
David: He ends up being impaled on the pole that he erects in Esther
Seth: ... in Esther.
David: Yes.
Seth: And here, Xerxes writes back-To the Samaritans saying, "If you try to stop Israel from rebuilding the temple, you will be hung on a pole."
David: Dang.
Seth: So it's like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... Ezra and Esther are like, like, uh, dovetailing together.
David: Yeah. Yeah, they're talking to each other here.
Seth: And the Ezra 1 to 6 is cluing you in on the main way in which the conflict is resolved in Esther-
David: Yes
Seth: ... from the back.
David: And I think the purpose of that, and I think why this is important, is because the same point that we've talked about is that's so crucial, um, for Ezra and Nehemiah to communicate, is also the, the point that Esther's trying to communicate. It's that God is working behind the scenes of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of governmental powers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he's actually in control even when it looks like he's not.
Seth: Right. And think about their geographic location.
David: Yes.
Seth: Esther is in the center of Persian power. Israel is in their center of power-
David: But it's all dilapidated
Seth: ... but it's dilapidated. So will God be faithful in the center of Persian power?
David: Mm.
Seth: Will he be faithful when there is no capital city in Jerusalem?
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes. He will use court documents and letters to p- vindicate his people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... put his people in place, and destroy his enemies.
David: From north to south, from pole to pole, God is faithful.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's cool. That's cool.
Seth: It's so cool.
David: I like that. So, uh, at Zeru- at the end of Zerubbabel's cycle, the, um, foundation of the temple is dedicated, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And-
David: And the Passover is celebrated.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's a big moment of national repentance, uh, for what God is doing.
David: Right. And then the cycle starts over in chapter seven of Ezra. Then we are introduced to the King Artaxerxes, and we meet Ezra, and it happens again.
Seth: Oh.
David: He is, he's sent with an edict and with resources, and he goes into [laughs] the land to do something different this time.
Seth: This time he's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... specifically going to revive the worship of God and the obedience of his people through the Torah.
David: Because Ezra was a teacher of the law.
Seth: Yeah, so he was a legal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Torah scholar.
David: Yeah. And, and it's debated what that means-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, because if it was a, if this was a Persian term, teacher of the law, uh, I read in, in one, uh, commentary that, that, that phrase might have been a Persian nomenclature, like a, a Persian term-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for, like, what they called those people who, you know, knew the, the, the documents-
Seth: Oh
David: ... of the Jews.
Seth: They called them, like, lawyers? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: They're like, "Those are the Jewish lawyers."
Seth: Oh, got it, got it.
David: You know, but, like, maybe, probably a Torah scholar-
Seth: Right
David: ... but probably also the one that might have been at the right hand of the king to be like if, if Persians were, were concerned with pleasing as many deities as possible, then these different teachers of the law for different, uh, deities would be brought in to say, "Okay, how do we please Israel's god?" "Oh, you need to do these things. Oh, well, the temple's very important, then. You better go and make sure they're doing it the right way."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I don't want that god to be mad at me." And so i- i- it was, it, yes, he was a Torah scholar, but he was also, like, a, in the political system of Persia, too, um, being like a liaison between, uh, Yahweh's interests and the interests of Persia's throne.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's interesting.
Seth: Super interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he goes out there, and he essentially sa- he does what Artaxerxes, Xerxes commands him to do. He goes out, and he teaches the law. He... And he institutes this, um, kind of, like, renewal-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and revival within Is- Israel. He reads the law to them, and he says, "We must obey it if we are going to be God's people, and God's presence is gonna dwell here, and that we will see the prophecies of Haggai and Zechariah come true."
David: Right.
Seth: And the people respond positively.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They say, "We agree." And the opposition that comes in this form isn't from the outside, it's from, it's internally.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: As they're having this, like, moment of, like, corporate national renewal and revival, 100 people, um, who had returned from, uh, uh, [laughs] Persia-
David: Oh, Persia, yeah
Seth: ... have intermarried with the women, uh, in the land of Samaria.
David: Like the Moabites.
Seth: The Moabites, the Ammonites-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the people in the land. The reason why this is an issue is because in the law, Deuteronomy, uh, hold on. I wrote it down somewhere.
David: You got it written down.
Seth: Yeah, I got it written down.
David: Look at you. You're so prepared.
Seth: I'm so prepared. If I knew what page it was on, I'd be even more prepared.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, I don't know what page it's on. [laughs]
David: In Deuteronomy.
Seth: In Deuteronomy. I think it's in the teens. Um-
David: Helpful
Seth: ... so helpful. Just read 10 chapters of Deuteronomy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you might find it.
David: It's fine. It'll make you a better, a better Christian.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: 'Cause that's the way it works.
David: That's how it works. You have to earn that. [laughs]
Seth: Um, yeah, I literally can't find out where it is.
David: It's fine. In Deuteronomy, we're told that it's against the law to intermarry-
Seth: 23, chapter 3.
David: It wasn't in the teens.
Seth: It wasn't in the teens. You would've-
David: You saved them some reading
Seth: ... saved some reading. 23, chapter 3. Um, it says that you cannot marry with people who worship other gods.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Now, this wasn't, like, this wasn't racist.
David: Right.
Seth: This, this was protecting the fidelity of worship to Yahweh alone.
David: Right. We know this isn't racist because Moabites are sometimes included in the people of God if they're faithful to Yahweh alone.
Seth: Right.
David: David came from a Moabite. King David came from a Moabite. You might know her-
Seth: The Rahab
David: ... as Ruth [laughs]
Seth: Ruth
David: Or, or Ruth.
Seth: Like, it's like-
David: Yeah, as Ruth.
Seth: You, the, the-
David: So anyway
Seth: ... what's happening here is w- the history has been when Israel marries foreign wives-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they worship the wives where their wives came from.
David: That's right. And the, the ultimate example of this was Solomon-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who his downfall was whenever he started to love the gods of his foreign wives.
Seth: Yep.
David: And Solomon's even mentioned-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in Ezra-Nehemiah.
Seth: And the phrase foreign wives is kind of unique to the Solomon story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and it's primarily the phrase used here-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to describe what happened.
David: So, like, guys, if we want the kingdom to come back, if we want God to dwell with us again, make His covenant with us again, we must not commit the same sins that led to the divided kingdom and exile that started-
Seth: In the first place
David: ... with Solomon in the first place.
Seth: And if you, a- and if you read what's happening in Malachi, Malachi says it's not just that they're marrying foreign women-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it's that they're also divorcing their own brides.
David: Oh.
Seth: So part of what he's saying is that you've divorced your Israelite bride so that you can marry this pagan wife, and then you're gonna go ahead, and you're going to-
David: Worship her gods
Seth: ... worship her, worship her gods. Divorce and idolatry combined-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is, again, a major theme through the prophet Jeremiah.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: So what these people realize is that their marriagesAre in, essentially invalid.
David: Mm.
Seth: They have to repent of their marriages, divorce tho- themselves from those marriages, and recommit themselves to worship of Yahweh alone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in the story, this is seen as this moment of deep costly repentance.
David: Yes.
Seth: They are choosing fidelity to Yahweh over their preference for multiple wives or discarding their own wife for the sake of a new wife with a better god.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's a moment of deep sacrifice and deep cost and deep pain-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for those, the, the families and the women-
David: That's right
Seth: ... that were, um, divorced.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is an issue, and we'll talk about that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when we, we're in the podcast. But for the moment, the point is this is a profound example of faith in God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're s- they're choosing no longer to do this, "Oh, I'll divorce you and I'll, then I'll marry you because I like your god better, I think," [laughs] whatever it is. That's not happening anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: That, and they're choosing to even submit their sexuality-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to God himself.
David: Right. And, like, this goes back to the, the big biblical picture of marriage being a picture of God's relationship with us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, Ephesians 5 picks up on that, how-
Seth: Yep
David: ... a, a husband and a wife picture Christ's love for his church, and so they are embodying that. They're like, "Oh, I am misrepresenting God's covenant with us, um, and sinning-"
Seth: Yep
David: ... "because I'm breaking the law." And as these men leave their, um, foreign wives, they are in a sense, um, m- remarrying, not only maybe their Israelite wife, but re- reattaching themselves to the covenant between them and God.
Seth: Yes. And it's like-
David: They're coming back.
Seth: Yeah. It's like in the same way that we have, like, this pretty visceral disgust to Solomon's thousand wives-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the idea of divorcing one woman just to get in bed with another woman.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like to say no to all that is a deep recommitment to God and the spouse as, as your spouse and your old spouse [laughs] at the same time.
David: Yeah. It is interesting to see, like, you know, the thousands of, the thousands of wives, or the thousand wives or 700 li- wives or whatever that Solomon had, uh, that Israel is now kind of, um, publicly repenting hundreds of years later for the sins of Solomon. Solomon never did this. Solomon never repented.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: You know?
Seth: He never did, yeah.
David: But now Israel is repenting, and it's like, is the clock going backwards?
Seth: Yep.
David: Are we getting... And, 'cause if you went right back before the story of Solomon's fall, what would you get? You'd get an enthroned King of David-
Seth: Yep
David: ... ruling and reigning at the peak of Israel's power.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Are we on our way back to there?
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, and, like, and what, what else happens right before he marries the foreign women? He builds the temple. Like-
Seth: Yep. It's all-
David: They're building the temple. It's like, are we getting back to the golden age of Israel?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it looks like it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's a big deal.
Seth: There's even this, so this idea of, like, okay, all the sin that's marked their past of being done away with is even repeated in one of Zechariah's prophecies. So whenever Zerubbabel went in, he went with another man named Joshua-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who was his high priest.
David: Right.
Seth: And Zechariah has an, a vision, a dream about Joshua, the high priest, covered in, like, filthy clothes.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And then God takes those dirty clothes off of him and clothes him in a brand, brand-new garments and a new pure white turban.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's a symbolic of what's happening on the ground in Israel. They're doing away with the old idolatrous ways, their old, like, um-
David: Yep
Seth: ... their old, their, everything else that used to happen-
David: Right
Seth: ... they're doing away with it, and they're new people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's a different type of thing happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or so we hope.
David: So we hope.
Seth: So that's the end, and then that is resolved.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then the new cycle happens with Nehemiah.
David: Yep, Nehemiah 1, the same thing happens again. We get to meet a new king, um, and, uh, this time, Nehemiah, we get to hear a little bit more of his internal struggle. Uh, we get to know him a little bit better. He's, uh, beat up by the state of Jerusalem and some of the failed attempts at, uh, revigorating, you know, reinvigorating the temple and the city. He hears about the state of the walls in Jerusalem, that they're just dilapidated, and he is so crushed by it that he just prays, just pours his heart out to God and says, like, "What should we do?" And God ends up doing what He's done before with Zerubbabel and Ezra, and He moves on the heart of the king to allow and equip Nehemiah to go to Jerusalem and rebuild the walls. So again, we have the same thing happening.
Seth: That's exactly right. Yep. And then, so Nehemiah's sent to Jerusalem specifically to do it, and the opposition here is from a man named Sanballat-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who is a Samaritan.
David: Right.
Seth: And essentially, their tactic is to make a conspiracy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to spread fake news [laughs] about, about, uh, Nehemiah, that one, he's a coward, and two, um, that they're seditious.
David: Mm.
Seth: So they, they try to send the, the lie up the chain that Nehemiah is plotting a takeover of the Persian throne.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they say, "You're trying to set yourself up as king." Now, what's interesting about that is that that did fit Zerubbabel. There were dreams and visions-
David: Right
Seth: ... about Zerubbabel with a crown on his head, and, like, he was from the line of David. But Nehemiah kind of just responds with a blunt facts. He's like-
David: "No, I'm not."
Seth: "No, I'm not." [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: "That's not what's going on." And he, there's this whole campaign going back and forth, and essentially, it's a, a big conspiracy to prove that Nehemiah's seditious, which he's not.
David: Right.
Seth: And he proves that by sending letters to the king and doing this whole thing-
David: Right
Seth: ... over again. The other thing they try to do is they try to get him to just abandon the project.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So they kind of mock him, send him letters, threaten him to stop the project, and Nehemiah kind of meets all that with force.
David: Mm.
Seth: He starts building the wall, knowing that there's armies surround around them, with one man holding a spear and one man laying bricks, and they swap every now and again. So somebody's always guarding, and someone's always building.
David: Yep.
Seth: So they, they, they can see the enemy army camps, but they're always building, even when under threat of war.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's happening. At one point, they try to make Nehemiah run away by sending a false prophet.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: He was saying, "Hey, Nehemiah, I'm prophet of God." So they send a pr- false prophet, say, "I'm a prophet of God. If you hide in the temple, God will protect you from Sanballat's encroaching armies."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so, and then Nehemiah quickly says, "You're not from God. You're from Sanballat." He's like, "I am," and he runs away. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: So you, there's an, all... It's, it's a weird campaign. There's not, like, a military battle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's all, it's an information war about how to undermine Nehemiah's leadership.
David: Mm.
Seth: But every time they try to threaten him or to scare him away, he meets it with faithfulness, and he eventually builds the wall despite the threat that surrounded the whole time.
David: Right. And so that's... It, it, it kinda ends again with the wall being built, right?
Seth: Yep. Wall's built, and, uh, the, the city's built. So they have a temple restored.
David: Yep.
Seth: People obeying the Torah.
David: Yep.
Seth: The wall's rebuilt.
David: Right. And-
Seth: This is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the moment we've been waiting for.
David: And then we get, and we'll, we get to, uh, Nehemiah 8, and like you said earlier, we get this recap, uh, and the celebration before a surprising downfall, which I guess we'll look at in, here in a second. [gentle music]
Seth: So 8 through 12-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is a recapitulation, a retelling, a repeat of all the covenant faithfulness that Israel's done.
David: Yep.
Seth: They built the temple. They celebrated the feast. They-
David: Ezra reads the law.
Seth: Ezra reads the law. They're saying no to their sin. They're publicly confessing in front of everyone. The wall has been built. They're together. Is this the time for the new Messiah to come?
David: Yeah. And there's all these genealogies, uh, from the line of Judah and the line of the Levites. So it's like we've got the line of David. We've got the priests. Let's go.
Seth: This is the moment-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that God will... Is Haggai's prophecy gonna come true?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Are Zechariah's prophecy is gonna come true? Are Malachi's prophecies gonna come true?
David: Yeah, and there's, like, bands in the street that have been trained in the ways of David, the musician, and it's just like, it's so heightened. It's crazy.
Seth: So heightened.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Nehemiah 13 begins-
David: Wah, wah
Seth: ... with Nehemiah being called back to Persia-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for a period of time. So remember, uh, so we didn't even mention this, but Nehemiah is actually the cupbearer of the king.
David: Yep.
Seth: So he's this pretty high official in the Persian king's-
David: Yep
Seth: ... courtroom. And so he was allowed, for a period of time, to go to Israel, but had to come back for a period, or a section.
David: Yep.
Seth: And now he's back, but when he comes back, he goes and reviews everything that was undergo- that was underway when he left.
David: Yep.
Seth: The, the people, the temple, and the walls, and he finds every single one of the things that was instituted when he left ransacked.
David: That's right. The, uh, the temple is being wrongfully inhabited, not by God, but by a dude.
Seth: By Sanballat's nephew.
David: [laughs] That's even worse.
Seth: Uh, right.
David: So it's like-
Seth: So the temple-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is being defiled.
David: Yeah, so he kicks him out. He finds that people are, are disobeying the Sabbath, but not only, they're using his gate, his wall, to bring in foreign goods on the Sabbath, breaking the law.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it's just like insult to injury.
Seth: Yep. And then the people are breaking the law by dis- like, a, a... What, what, what's the word? Like, disenfranchising? [laughs] Is that the word? It's like they're taking advantage of the poor.
David: Oh, right. Yes, they are.
Seth: And they're breaking the Sabbath.
David: And they're re- and they're intermarrying again with the foreign women again.
Seth: And they're intermarrying with-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so it's like-
David: The foreign
Seth: ... dang it.
David: And-
Seth: Didn't we just unwork all of this? [laughs]
David: Yeah, so everything that Z- Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah set up in a series of three prayers and three movements in the last chapter is all undone.
Seth: Right.
David: And they all-
Seth: Which follows the three people who set them up. Yep. That's exactly right, and the end of each prayer is, uh, "Remember me, God."
David: Mm.
Seth: So Nehemiah 13:14, "Remember me, O my God, concerning this, and do not wipe out my good deeds that I have done because, for the house of my God and for his service."
David: That's right.
Seth: And then-
David: So every time after Nehemiah notices what's gone wrong, he takes extreme action to remedy it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He then asks God to remember his faithfulness, but why does he... Why, why, why that prayer?
Seth: Well, let me, let me read the other two-
David: Oh, okay. Yep.
Seth: 'cause it's helpful.
David: Yep.
Seth: Oh, and it's just the Sabbath here. Part of the internal about the problem with Ezra was that they were, they were hurting the poor. That's a different section.
David: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Seth: Here, it's the Sabbath-breaking.
David: Yes.
Seth: So after he addresses the Sabbath-breaking and bars people from selling and buying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on the Sabbath, he says, "Remember me this also in my favor, O my God, and spare me according to the greatness of your steadfast love," covenant love, loyal love, and then finally, "Remember me, O my God, for my good."
David: Those are the last words-
Seth: Those are the last words
David: ... of the book.
Seth: "Remember me and what I've done." So it's, it's a pretty hearty anticlimax.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Remember me, God, for-"
David: Good
Seth: ... "our good."
David: Yep.
Seth: For good. Uh, for, just for good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the reason why I think he's doing that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that he's asking God to remember his faithfulness more than he remembers Israel's sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's acting as Israel's last leader-
David: Yeah, their representative
Seth: ... last representative, and he's saying, "God, as Israel's last representative before the Torah ends-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or the, the-
David: The Old Testament ends
Seth: ... the Old Testament ends," he's saying, "Remember my faithfulness, not our people's sin."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's how the history-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Israel ends-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with an appeal for, to remember the faithfulness of one for the sake of the many.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I don't really see-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... a more clear picture of what Jesus is accomplishing for us.
David: Yep.
Seth: We have Jesus. He never says, "Remember me for my good so that the people will go free," but-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's exactly what he does on the cross. Like-
David: Yep, and we're told in the epistles when they reflect on what Jesus did, that one would die on behalf of the many.
Seth: The, uh, the high priest at the time Jesus was crucified says, "It is good that one man die for the sins of many."
David: That's right.
Seth: So Jesus is the final Nehemiah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who does what Nehemiah couldn't do, Nehemiah lamenting at-The state of Israel says, "Remember my faithfulness and do good to my people." Jesus says, "God, remember my faithfulness and do good to my, your people."
David: That's right, yeah, because over and over again throughout the Old Testament story, people do this. Uh, Abraham tries to save Sodom and Gomorrah by his righteousness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and it doesn't work.
Seth: Yep.
David: Moses intercedes for the people at the golden calf, and it kind of works, but thousands still die for their sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, this happens again and again, representative headship. You know, uh, a- Aaron tries to stand between the plague and the people, and it stops-
Seth: Right
David: ... but not after taking tons of lives. And Nehemiah, again-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... will stand between, uh, the plagues and the people in a sense here and ask God to remember his faithfulness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but it doesn't work. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... [laughs]
Seth: There's a double-edged sword. I, I was just thinking as you were talking, like it's kinda crazy. It's like sometimes I don't want one to stand in for the many.
David: Okay.
Seth: When like, back in Joshua-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when like Achan disobeys-
David: Oh
Seth: ... everybody gets punished for it.
David: Right.
Seth: So I don't like the idea of representation there.
David: Oh, right, 'cause like, "I didn't do it. Why am I being punished-
Seth: But you know what?
David: ... for something that guy did?"
Seth: Yeah. Um, but when it's prayed like Nehemiah does it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I want that. I want one person to stand in for the many. Like, I want somebody to like take responsibility for my issues and try to solve them for me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I want God to accept that prayer on my behalf, and Jesus does that for us. He boldly goes before God-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and He intercedes for us. He prays for us in this great tradition of people like Moses and Joshua and Nehemiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he says, "God, remember my faithfulness over the sinfulness of these people." I used to kinda clumsily say it to my youth group a long time ago. It's like what Jesus is praying for us in that like John 17 like-
David: High priestly prayer
Seth: ... high priest- priestly moment is that when God looks at us, He sees Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: He doesn't look at our history, our mistakes, our sins. He sees Jesus's life. He sees Jesus feeding the 5,000 and picking women up off the ground who've been chronically ill.
David: Mm.
Seth: He sees Jesus perfectly obeying His mother. He sees Jesus like fighting for the cause of the poor, making friends with prostitutes, and saving tax collectors.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What Jesus is doing in that moment is he's praying that God would see us but remember Jesus's words-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jesus's actions-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Jesus's life, and I'm like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's what's happening.
David: That is what's happening.
Seth: That's what Jesus does for us.
David: Yeah. I, I'm also thinking of another way Jesus is the new Nehemiah, uh, not only as a representative, but also in the way that He makes us obey. Because part of the Jeremiah prophecy that we talked about at the beginning of this episode is that God would give us new hearts that could actually obey, so that whenever the leader left and the city was just inhabited by people like us, we wouldn't ruin everything that He set up, and that's what Jesus does. Not only does He represent His people and, um, you know, earn f- them something that they don't deserve, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... He also turns them into people who can actually obey. He gives us His Spirit-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so, like, we actually won't defile the temple of our bodies anymore. We actually, like, will maintain the cause of the law. You know, we actually will obey God because the Spirit of Jesus, who was obedient, lives in us. He doesn't come to us like Nehemiah did to the people of Israel and, "Okay, if you're bringing in goods through the gate on the Sabbath, let me just shut the gate and put armed guards there, and you can't do it anymore. I'm gonna beat you with a stick until you obey."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, Jesus turns us into people who want to obey, who can obey. He changes our hearts.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, it's a better Nehemiah. [laughs]
Seth: In Haggai, there's this, uh, explanation for why, um, Israel is failing to do what it, they want-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he, he goes all the way back to Leviticus, and he says, "If you touch something dead, you become impure, right?"
David: He gives them a test on whether or not they've understood the law.
Seth: Yeah, and they're like, "Yeah."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You become impure."
David: It's like-
Seth: It's like, "Okay, so if you're impure and then you touch some clean food..."
David: Does it become pure? [laughs]
Seth: They're like, he's like, "No," like, "It become unclean." He's like, "Okay, good. You understand the Torah." He's like, "What you're doing in the temple is that you have touched unclean things with your hands, your heart, and your mind."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And then you're coming into this holy place, and you're touching it. What do you think that's gonna do to the temple? It's gonna defile it."
David: Right.
Seth: And they're like, "Okay, that's what you're doing."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Stop that." [laughs] Like, "Purify yourself."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Depend on the Spirit, and that won't happen anymore."
David: Right.
Seth: "And God's presence will dwell with you." What you're saying is Jesus purifies us in that moment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He gives us new hearts. He cleans us so that when we touch things, they become pure-
David: Right
Seth: ... not dirty anymore.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is like ties in to the theme of the land and the Garden of Eden, that it's like we are no longer defiling the world around us, you know, and like tear- and like causing reason for God to tear things down. Instead-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we are planting-
Seth: Right
David: ... and we are rebuilding, and like I think we are always in the role, as Christians, of Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. Christians should always be in the business of rebuilding God's world and God's kingdom. Like, we should be erecting temples and walls and, and s-
Seth: And we have this like-
David: ... having the law on our lips
Seth: ... deep hope that when we put our hands to the ground, it actually purifies the ground.
David: Yes.
Seth: It actually does something good-
David: Right
Seth: ... and valuable on the ground, and I think there's something to be said about like the corporate nature of this too.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause like we're talking about Israel as a whole and like, um, yes, Nehemiah's the leader, Ezra's the leader, but it's like I think when I think about... It's, it's back to the Achan thing.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like one man's sin, well, that's, I, I'm not like him.
David: Right.
Seth: And normally, it's like, man, the world is crazy, but I'm fine.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Right? And I'm, and I don't implicate myself in the craziness of the world.
David: Right.
Seth: And when I-
David: Can you believe sweat- sweatshops are a thing?
Seth: Right.
David: I mean, yeah, I got my jeans from them, but like that's one purchase.
Seth: That's just... It, one purchase, like it doesn't matter. [laughs] Like, we have like little justifications for why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the world is crazy.
David: But we're okay.
Seth: But we're fine.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what I love that, that this corporate picture that we have here is that-Normally we kind of assume that the world will just continually get worse.
David: Mm.
Seth: The world is crazy, but I'm fine, but I can't do anything about it, so the world's just gonna continue to get defiled and continue to get dirty by people putting their hands on it. The more sweat-the more people, the more capitalist, greedy people, it's gonna get worse and worse and worse. But what Jesus does is, like, He makes the corporate Christian-
David: Oh, right, the body of Christ
Seth: ... the body of Christ, that whatever their hands touches works in reverse.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, we're constantly pushing up the ball, the ball up the field in the Kingdom of God.
David: Right. We're, like, like, we're turning the clock back to Eden.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, by default, like, by default, the world gets crazier and worse.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I assume I'm not a part of it.
David: But with the church in it-
Seth: With the church in it, it's like-
David: ... a little leaven leavens the whole lump
Seth: ... and I'm always a part of it.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, I assume I'm not a part of it, and then it gets worse. Now I'm am a part of it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... regardless of what I do, as I depend on the Spirit of the Lord.
David: That's what the new kingdom Jesus brought does.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It reworks the clock as Zerubbabel, Ezra, Nehemiah tried to do, but it actually works, and it works as a corporate body living as salt and light in the world.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, that's amazing.
Seth: And-
David: Uh, yeah
Seth: ... yeah, I was gonna say, like, and, like, not to forget about the Exodus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but, like, Jesus is our new Exodus moment.
David: Absolutely right. He does a lot of the things Ezra and Nehemiah did. E- Ezra and Nehemiah literarily pulled on themes of the Exodus so that we would know that God was still with us and that He was forming a new covenant, a covenant, but that new covenant never came. But in Jesus, He does the same thing. He pulls on literary threads of the Exodus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which we've talked about many times on this podcast-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order to show us that God is still with us, and He actually does make the new covenant of His blood-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and His Spirit dwells in us and remakes our hearts. Like-
Seth: In the same way that the Exodus story was recontextualized for a new generation that was vastly more complex-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and disobeyed, Jesus recontextualized the Exodus story for people who were not even Jewish-
David: Right [laughs]
Seth: ... too. It's like [laughs] like, He says, "No, we, the salvation from slavery that happened in Israel now happens for you when you go into the waters of baptism."
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: "Every person that goes in a tub anywhere-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I baptize them with my Spirit so they might be free from slavery and live a life in my kingdom."
David: Yeah, after Jesus is baptized, goes into the wilderness, uh, and goes into the wilderness to be tempted, the next place he goes is in Samaria.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he goes-
Seth: Right
David: ... to the nations first.
Seth: He goes to the nations first.
David: Anyway, that's very interesting. The other thing is, um, with the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah, something interesting, uh, to talk about here is while Ezra and Nehemiah thought this was the time for the kingdom to be rebuilt, we know by reading the end of Daniel that it wasn't 70 years but 70 times 7 years.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that whole point is that no, the time of Israel's exile is not up yet. It's not, the punishment has not been completed yet. So yes, people are gonna go back to the land, but it's gonna take another 400-plus years to actually, uh, have the Messiah come, and that's when Jesus does come.
Seth: Historically, you mean.
David: Historically, I mean.
Seth: Like, there's like, it's kinda like tracks.
David: It's pretty crazy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but whether or not it lines up the dates or not, I don't think the number is what matters there, but more of, like, the symbol of 70 times 7.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it, the, the perfect fulfillment of God's perfect judgment was not over in just 70 years.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so, but when Jesus does come, He actually comes at the fullness of time and actually does finally fulfill, um, the prophecies of Jeremiah 31, 32, 29, you know, uh, that Ezra and Nehemiah anticipated.
Seth: Yep.
David: He, He brings fully. He actually gives us new hearts, gives us the new covenant, um, actually does bring us out of exile, not only in a geopolitical way, but out of the exile that we've always had from His presence. Like, we've always been exiled from the Garden of Eden. It's not about getting back to a plot of land. It's about being able to be with God again, and what better way to be with God than to have Him dwell inside us? Not to rebuild a new physical temple, but to be made living temples in which the Holy Spirit dwells. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is the good news of Jesus, that He rebuilds the temple, not as a place that we go to, but into a thing that we are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's what's amazing about the gospel. Um, anyway, I love that.
Seth: Um, let me ask you a question.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, Ezra and Nehemiah is normally, like, classic leadership parable-type stuff.
David: Yeah [laughs].
Seth: Um, and we've not really talked about Ezra, Zerubbabel, and Nehemiah as, like, paradigms of leaders we should be, partly because I just, like, that just doesn't seem-
David: I'm not t- yeah, I'm not triggered by the text to read it that way.
Seth: Right. So but at the same time, it's like most people are leaders in some way-
David: Mm
Seth: ... whether we're leading our children or the late shift-
David: Right
Seth: ... or ourselves. Like, how does then the message of Ezra and Nehemiah, like, and the good news of Jesus as the better leader, like, let's just, like, subvert it all for a second and say, "No, no, I want a leadership principle out of Ezra and Nehemiah."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: It's like, no, okay, great. These were good leaders. How does Jesus inform our reading of Ezra and Nehemiah, and how does he transform a- the hopes and expectations we have for our, like, spheres of influence and leadership?
David: Mm. I mean, I, I mean, my, my first answer that c- comes to my head, one, is that's probably not a good question to ask of this text.
Seth: No, but I think it's-
David: But if I was gonna play, let me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'll play.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'll play ball. I think that, uh, we actually, the best way to d- to, to see Jesus in this or to see us as leaders in this and how Jesus as the new and better Nehemiah or whatever, you know, fixes all of it, is to see ourselves not as the, like, how can we be like Nehemiah, but how can we be like the people of Israel?
Seth: Mm.
David: 'Cause the people of Israel submitted to their leader, experienced radical repentance, obeyed, and were faithful, but then they fell-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, because they were trusting in an earthly king and an earthly ruler.
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's like, but when we trust in a, a perfect leader, Jesus, who actually is the Son of David that Zerubbabel could never be, who actually fulfills the laws Ezra never could, who actually hems us in around the walls of His presence as Nehemiah never could-
Seth: Mm
David: ... when we actually trust in Him, we are made into servants who can radically repent, generously obey, and be everlastingly faithful, that, that the leadership principle to take away from Ezra and Nehemiah, in my opinion, is that Jesus is our leader.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we, and He's enabling us to be faithful followers.
Seth: Which kinda sounds a lot like what Jesus says when he says, "W- do you wanna be a leader?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Then serve."Be humble
David: Build, build the wall, contribute to the temple
Seth: Wash feet
David: Wash feet, repent. Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: That's, that's what I think.
Seth: Yeah. I think that's, I think that's helpful, and it's, I, I think you're right. It's like I don't see leadership as the primary thing to take away from it. It's 'cause again, like, who's the leader here? God is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's stirring up kings, and he's stirring up Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, God is like-
David: And if you'll allow me to be cynical for one minute
Seth: Please be cynical
David: Uh, I think, and I'll, I'll... I say this with kindness, but I think there's also a reason why we exist as Spoken Gospel is because I think one of the reasons why this text gets preached as a leadership parable is because to preach it any, any other way really takes a lot of work to understand the entire biblical story of how it's the rebuilding of Eden, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the reestablishing of the Davidic monarchy, the prophetic hopes of Jeremiah, how Malachi and everybody else relates to that. Like, that just takes some work, and, um, I just, I, I think, like, if we could fall in love more with the biblical story, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I think we would be less inclined to want to find this as a leadership text.
Seth: And more as a reason just to worship Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus is the good king of the land.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when we trust him, we, our hearts are changed, the land is restored, our obedience increases-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and we are secure from our enemies.
David: Yep.
Seth: But-
David: And so anyway, the, the good news, I just wanna make sure we don't, we don't leave on the table here, is that this story is finished in Revelation.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] There is a new land and new walls and a new temple and a, and a new, uh, a new book that, that's read, and, like, if you wanna see what Ezra and Nehemiah were trying to do-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the good thing they were trying to do that Jesus actually does, read Revelation 21 and 22, when the new heavens and new earth come and we actually do get to dwell with God forever in a garden city-
Seth: With a river of life
David: ... with a river of life-
Seth: Where we don't want wrong things anymore
David: ... where our names are written in a book of life that are never blotted out. Like, Nehemiah's prayer that God will remember him happens for us.
Seth: Very-
David: We are remembered forever. [laughs]
Seth: That's fi- I haven't thought about that, but there's, like, all these, like, sensai and, like, numbers here.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it's like there is a book in heaven-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... w- and a census with your name on it.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the tribe of Seth and his 10 sons and grandsons-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... are here.
David: Yeah. Oh, that's good news.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, your name is written in the book of life by simply putting your faith in not in Zerubbabel, [laughs] but in the final son of David, Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And yeah, that's where the story of Ezra/Nehemiah ends, is in the new heavens and the earth. So guys, that's Ezra/Nehemiah, uh, and that's good news. It's really good news, and we hope it sounds like good news to you. We hope it is a, is a, is a book you can now go to and find some joy in, um, yeah.
Seth: If this was helpful for you, leave a comment, uh, or leave us a review on iTunes. It's how more people see and enjoy Jesus on the internet, and we'll see you next time. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]