Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. We're in Habakkuk today.
Seth: Habakkuk.
David: How you feeling about, about that, Seth?
Seth: Conflicted on the pronunciation.
David: Habakkuk?
Seth: Habakkuk.
David: Habakkuk.
Seth: Habakkuk. That's, and I go back and forth, so I apologize-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in advance for my inconsistency.
David: Yeah, we'll just, we'll just flip-flop.
Seth: We'll flip-flop.
David: Yeah. And in so doing, we'll please everyone with our pronunciations.
Seth: I've always heard a good flip-flopper-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... is the best way to make friends. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Okay, so talk to me about H- Habakkuk. Like, o- on a, on an introductory level, what sets this book apart? Why should I be excited about today's episode?
Seth: Yeah.
David: All that kind of stuff.
Seth: So the book of Habakkuk is really interesting within scripture because it asks Gods, God a really blunt question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It says, "God, if you're good, why do you tolerate evil?"
David: Yeah. Good question.
Seth: Good question. And then God response is, "Well, don't worry, I'm gonna send more evil people to judge the evil people you see." And then Habakkuk goes, "God, you haven't really answered my question." [laughs]
David: "In fact, you've made the matter worse."
Seth: "You've made the... How can you be good and use evil to judge evil?"
David: Yeah. It is interesting. That, so that's what
Seth:-that's what the book of Habakkuk-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is doing in our Bible.
David: So if you're interested in that question-
Seth: That's what we're-
David: ... stick around
Seth: ... that's what we're doing here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But let's zoom out a little bit.
David: Yes, okay.
Seth: The Book of Habakkuk-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Habakkuk is part of the 12 minor prophets-
David: Yes
Seth: ... within scripture. So who were the 12 minor prophets, and what are they doing in our Bible?
David: Mm. Is that a question for me?
Seth: That's a question for you, David.
David: I mean, they are, um, prophets, not minor in significance, they just, their, their-
Seth: Sure
David: ... oracles are just shorter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... than the major ones who just went on and on. No. Uh, and they are sprinkled throughout Israel's history-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in different moments in time, uh, usually, um, giving some kind of word about, um, what is soon going to happen to Israel or around Israel because of, most of the time, injustice within Israel.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right. And what is a prophet?
David: Uh, I mean, it, that's a, that's a loaded question.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, a prophet-
Seth: Prophecy is a giant-
David: Yeah, it's a giant category
Seth: ... part of our scriptures-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it's really important to understand what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... sorry.
David: So I mean, in one way, uh, one way to talk about prophecy is it's a human report of divine revelation.
Seth: Okay.
David: God said it to a prophet, and the prophet repeats it, is one way to talk about it.
Seth: And so in the context of most of the prophets, they see the injustice within Israel, generally, but broadly in the world, and then God reports through that prophet what Israel's doing wrong and how to correct it.
David: Yeah. I would say, um, that's, that's, that, that's getting closer to the other way I would talk about prophecy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is, um, a prophet is someone who see, uh, enabled by God, they're enabled by God to see the world the way God sees it.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, sometimes that comes about, uh, through, like, "And the word of the Lord came to-"
Seth: Mm. Mm
David: ... "X person." And to me, that sounds like God showed up and said, "Here's some words I want you to say to people."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Other times it's presented, kind of like in Habakkuk, as a vision or a portent or an oracle or a burden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you can almost see Habakkuk's eyes just kind of opening up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and seeing his historical situation with God's eyes and going, "Oh, this is bad," and starting to-
Seth: Mm
David: ... talk about it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a divinely inspired way.
Seth: That was pr- you just used the word burden and oracle side by side, and that was actually the, one of the most helpful things that I figured out while I was studying the Book of Habakkuk. Habakkuk opens with the oracle that Habakkuk the prophet saw.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so when I think of oracles, I think of something mystical from, like, Greek mythology. Like, that's the-
David: Right
Seth: ... first thing I think of.
David: I also don't think of an oracle as something you see.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think of an oracle as something you hear.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like a, a, an oracle is a, a, a, a word or a, like, a, a-
Seth: Right
David: ... saying about the future.
Seth: But the word oracle just means, like, burden-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or weight.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, like, I grew up in, like, fairly charismatic churches, and I just thought, like, oh, the, we use the word, like, impression.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like something pressing on us-
David: Yeah, I just have a burden on my heart for X, Y, Z
Seth: ... yeah, to describe, like, what the Holy Spirit's doing in-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... people. So I think what's interesting here is it kind of, like, it almost immediately humanized Habakkuk to me.
David: Yes.
Seth: So he's watching Israel's corruption over the course of his lifetime, and he has this growing, deepening weight and burden-
David: Mm
Seth: ... laid up on his heart. And he's like, "I think what's happening in this moment is this."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's sharing that with the nation.
David: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's, he looked around and saw something that put a burden on his heart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that'd be the most human way to say it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the, there's probably a, especially 'cause he does see, like, a, a vision and hear the words of the Lord.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Another way to kind of, like, over-spiritualize it would be, like, he's walking around one day, and then boom, overlaid on his reality, like augmented reality is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a vision from the Lord-
Seth: Right
David: ... mystical experience that shows him the real deal, what's going on. And it's probably some kind of blend of the two.
Seth: Yeah, he's reading the newspapers of the day-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then God's like, "What I'm really up to, Babylon isn't just growing in power," which we'll get to in a second.
David: Yes.
Seth: Babylon's coming to judge Israel for their sins, which no politician in Israel was saying in the day.
David: Was talking about, yeah.
Seth: But as the carrier of God's word, the prophet Habakkuk is.
David: Okay.
Seth: So.
David: So starting then at the top of Habakkuk, we have, um, the primary problem that-That he has and that he's looking around and seeing the burden on his heart-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is, "Man, Israel's evil."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "My people are so bad."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "Your, your, your, your word isn't being accomplished. The law isn't being obeyed. Justice isn't being done, whether inside Israel or outside Israel, like we're supposed to be a light to the nations. None of this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is happening. It's so much evil. God, why aren't you doing anything about it?"
Seth: That's right. So let me just read you a couple of verses from Habakkuk. Habakkuk 1:2, "O Lord, how long shall I cry for help and will You not hear? Or how long shall I cry to You violence and will You not save? Why do You make me see iniquity, and why do you look so idly at wrong?"
David: Yeah. He's sitting there going like, "Okay, I know I'm not God, but I'm looking around and I can see with my own human eyes that people are really messed up."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "You have perfect God eyes. You can see everything."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And it seems like You're looking at it and You don't care."
Seth: Yeah. So that- that's kind of the issue at hand.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Israel has fallen into just deep injustice.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, we don't quite know when Habakkuk was written.
David: Right. There's some hints.
Seth: There's some hints. We're, we're about to be told that Babylon is c- coming to destroy Israel for their-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... injustice. And so that's the immediate context.
David: Yes. And they're called the Chaldeans in this context-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which was an earlier name for the Babylonians before they continued to grow and formalize, so that also places it in maybe in-
Seth: So-
David: ... an earlier time
Seth: ... Second Kings 24 is the re- reign of King Jehoiakim-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he's the king under which Babylon invades for the first time. And here is Second Kings 24 talking about the time around which it seems likely that Habakkuk was alive.
David: Mm.
Seth: "The Lord sent Babylonian, Aramean, Moabite, and Ammonite raiders against him to destroy Judah," the southern capital of Israel, "in accordance with the word of the Lord proclaimed by his servants the prophets." Presumably Habakkuk.
David: Presumably. [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: "Surely these things happened to Judah according to the Lord's command in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the Lord was not willing to forgive it."
David: Okay, so Israel has filled the land with in- innocent blood.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Their, their sins have gotten so out of control-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that the Lord would not forgive it. He had to come and punish it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah. Verse three says, uh, verse three says, "Destruction and violence are before me. Strife and contention arises." This is Habakkuk again. "So the law is paralyzed and justice never goes forth. The wicked surround the righteous and justice is perverted." So Habakkuk's assessment of Israel, that it's an entirely morally corrupt state. The way it continues to gain in wealth and power is on the backs of the innocent and by killing those that disagree with the monarchy.
David: Right. And you can imagine Habakkuk looking around at all of this with prophetic eyes and just... You, you can resonate with his, his plea.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Why are you letting this happen-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to your people, God?
David: Right. This is... Israel was supposed to be what's called a theocracy. Like, a-
Seth: Right
David: ... people ruled and governed by the theos, God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not a democracy, not a monarchy. A theocracy, where God was in charge, and God i, in Habakkuk's charge is mismanaging his kingdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because he's leaving all this stuff unpunished.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's like, "Okay, God, so what are you gonna do about this?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And God's answer does not help the problem in Habakkuk's eyes.
Seth: Yeah. He says in verse five, "Look among, uh, the nations and see, wonder, and be astounded." Now, there's a textual variant here, which is actually fairly interesting. So look among the nations could be look among Babylon to see where the solution will lie.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or it could be, like, one final jab at Israel's l- leaders, so look among the treacherous ones or the scoffers or the mockers, and this is actually how the New Testament uses this passage-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Acts 13:41. When Paul is preaching in the synagogues in, uh, preaching the synagogues and preaching about the gospel, and they kick him out, but some people wanna hear, he quotes The- Habakkuk 1:5 at them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and said, "Look among the scoffers and see what God is d- what, what God is up to," calling the Jews of his day-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the scoffers of Habakkuk's day. So there's, there's textual evidence to suggest that this is another reference to-
David: Right
Seth: ... the inhumanity of Jerusalem-
David: Interesting. Okay
Seth: ... or of Israel.
David: Because he's gonna do... He... So he's telling them to look at the nations or the scoffers because he's about to do something today-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that he's never done before.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And verse six is, you know, is the, the plunge of the knife. "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans," or the Babylonians, "that bitter and hasty nation. They're going to march against you, seize your dwellings, and just completely overwhelm you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's like, "Okay, here's the deal. You say that I have left sin unpunished in my kingdom. No longer. Don't worry. I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna raise up an evil nation to come against you and punish-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... your wickedness. See? I'm not doing anything. I, I'm not, I'm not idle anymore, as you accuse me, Habakkuk."
Seth: I'm going to judge evil.
David: I'm gonna judge evil.
Seth: I'm doing it.
David: I'm gonna do it.
Seth: I'm gonna bring Babylon to judge the evil of Israel.
David: And then Habakkuk goes, "Hold on."
Seth: Wait a second.
David: "You're gonna use evil people to judge your righteous people? Like, I know we're not perfect, but, like, we're not as bad as the Babylonians."
Seth: You seem to be making the problem worse for yourself, God. [laughs]
David: [laughs] So, so I mean, this is the, this is the crux of, of, of Habakkuk when it comes to, like... It's a very unique contribution, is, like, this question. Is, like, how, why can God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... use evil to accomplish his purposes?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Here's how Habakkuk axes... Habakkuhuh.
David: Habakkuk axes.
Seth: This is how he a- axes... [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: How Habakkuk asks it in verse 13.
David: There we go.
Seth: "You who are pure, of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?" So he's saying, "How can you-Be the God who's holy and good and only look on good things, look on evil long enough to see it swallow up people who are less evil than them.
David: Yeah. Why do you let bad things happen to good people?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Or even just less good than those good people-
David: Less good than the people who are doing the bad
Seth: ... right. 'Cause he already said Israel was bad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the Babylonians are worse.
David: Real bad.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so that's the question that he poses to God. Um, a- and he even, like, doubles down on it with this metaphor and, like, this visual picture about fish.
Seth: He does, yeah.
David: Can, can you explain that?
Seth: So he's... Let me just read you a couple-
David: Okay
Seth: ... verses. "You made mankind like the fish of the sea and like crawling things that have no ruler, and he," meaning the ruler of Babylon-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "brings all of them up with his hook, and he drags them all out with his neth- nes- uh, net, [laughs] and he gathers them into his dragnet, and so he rejoices and is glad." So he's saying, "God, you're making all the people like these leaderless fish, and they're being swallowed up by this giant empire of Babylon."
David: Yeah. You think about fish, they swim around the sea.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Whenever a fisherman's net drops in the sea, it's not like some giant... It's not like King Triton pops out of nowhere and is like, "No, you will not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... steal these fish from the ocean. They belong to me," or King Neptune or Aquaman.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, they don't have a defender. They're fish.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like the, the re- it's the reason why, like, I mean, you teach a man to fish, it's pretty easy.
Seth: Right.
David: It's fish in a barrel.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: It's pretty easy. You're making us, like, easy prey-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the king of Babylon's just gonna come swoop and take us up, and th- you're okay with that? And then he ends, he ends that-
Seth: By saying
David: ... by saying, "Is this just gonna happen forever?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: Is he then gonna keep on emptying his net and filling it up again and mercilessly killing nations forever? Is that your solution-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the problem of evil within Israel?
David: You're just gonna, like, let's, uh, like, make a Thanos? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, right, right. Make more evil, and evil nations just come and devour other evil nations?
David: Yes.
Seth: And so let me just say something here as well. So I think what he's saying isn't just one version of it, which is Babylon will come to destroy Israel's evil.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's also saying, like, he's putting it in perpetuity. He's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... "So who's the next superpower that's gonna come up and swallow Babylon? Just a more evil power?"
David: Right.
Seth: "And then that evil power-"
David: Yes
Seth: ... "is gonna be, come up against another evil power, and is evil just gonna eat evil and be supplanted by evil over and over and over again? Is that your solution to the injustice of Israel?"
David: Right. Because think about it, you have... That is their situation. They've, they, like, they've been attacked by an evil empire, Assyria.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Assyria's finally gonna be reigned in by Babylon.
Seth: Babylon.
David: But now Babylon's there, and they're gonna come, and then-
Seth: And then
David: ... who's gonna supplant them?
Seth: Who's gonna-
David: The Assyrians.
Seth: Right.
David: And, you know, it's gonna keep going. 'Cause you think about it, it's like if God uses evil to judge evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so you have, like, this evil thing that, like, Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you have evil in Israel, and God uses an evil nation, Babylon, to come and wipe Israel out, what's left in Israel?
Seth: Evil.
David: Evil.
Seth: Right.
David: The evil of Babylon.
Seth: Right.
David: So, like, you're judging-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... one person's evil, and you're wiping it out.
Seth: Good, right.
David: The evil of Israel's leaders will no longer-
Seth: Build their cities on the blood of the innocent
David: ... good, good news.
Seth: Good news.
David: But Babylon's gonna build an empire that does exactly the same thing.
Seth: Bad news.
David: Bad news.
Seth: Yeah, so, like, how is this a solution?
David: Which is exactly what he says in-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 2 verse 1. "So I'm gonna stand right here on my watchtower, God."
Seth: [laughs]
David: "I'm gonna station myself right here, and I am going to look out and see and wait for what you will say to me, and I will wait for your answer to my complaint."
Seth: I, I love that he calls it his complaint.
David: 'Cause I, I'm complaining about-
Seth: I'm complaining. I'm gonna sit here until you give me an answer.
David: Right.
Seth: Mer. [laughs]
David: Be- because, I mean, God's people are on the line.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: And, and God's character.
David: God's character is on the line.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, so we talked about the beginning brings up the issue of the theocracy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and, and I got this from, uh, David Helm did a podcast-
Seth: Mm
David: ... with Nancy Guthrie-
Seth: Mm
David: ... on Help Me Teach The Bible, which is a great podcast.
Seth: Yep, you can find it on YouVersion, uh, Bible App.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and yeah, anywhere. And, uh, he talks about how the beginning is a theocracy problem. Like, the, the-
Seth: It's like the, the-
David: P-
Seth: ... your people have abandoned your rules-
David: Right
Seth: ... under your care.
David: God's government-
Seth: Is broken
David: ... is broken. Then what we've just walked through is the theodicy problem, which is a fancy $10 word to say, um, whenever God's goodness or God's justice is on the line.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: When we have an issue with the way God's managing His universe, it's a theodicy issue.
Seth: Right.
David: So the first section of, of Habakkuk is about God's theoc- theocracy.
Seth: And God says, "I'll fix my theocracy by sending evil."
David: Which creates a theodicy problem.
Seth: Which is like, if you do that, you are implicated in evil yourself, God.
David: That's right.
Seth: How can that be the case?
David: And then God answers that question with what's called a theodicy, which is an appearance of God. So-
Seth: Or a, a theophany.
David: A theophany. So sorry.
Seth: A theo-
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: A theophany, which is an appearance of God.
Seth: Which is a really fun way-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... to string three $10 theological words-
David: It is. [laughs]
Seth: ... together in a sentence, but also achieve alliteration.
David: Yes.
Seth: Theocracy, theodicy, theophany.
David: Theophany. [laughs]
Seth: And chapter three is the theophany, 'cause God appears.
David: Yes, yes. So anyway-
Seth: Bright light and-
David: It's just fun. I couldn't p- I couldn't pass up-
Seth: You couldn't
David: ... stealing that from David Helm-
Seth: It was, uh-
David: ... 'cause it's just too good
Seth: ... it's a great little thing.
David: Yes.
Seth: So God is about to answer the theodicy problem.
David: Yes.
Seth: Or is he?
David: Or is he?
Seth: [laughs] Or is he?
David: Yes.
Seth: So, uh-
David: Okay. So I mean, should we stop here and, and kind of ask this, could we contextualize this question a little bit for ourselves?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, let's do that.
Seth: Normally, when I think about unjust nations or unjust people, people who have forgotten God's law, people who make a mockery of justice, I think about the world around me.
David: Mm, right.
Seth: I think about the politics of our time, the politics of other nations. I think about-
David: Hollywood
Seth: ... Hollywood. Habakkuk is not talking about any of those.
David: No.
Seth: He's talking about God's people. And so for us, God's people are his church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think it's fair to say that throughout the world, throughout evangelicalism, throughout whatever tradition you're a part of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... justice has gone overlookedSuccess is built on the back of the abused-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and people are taken advantage of so others might get ahead.
David: Right. And, and, and the church has not been lacking prophets like Habakkuk who have looked into the church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and gone like, "Really?"
Seth: Yep.
David: "This is your people?"
Seth: Yep.
David: Are you just gonna sit by and let your church represent you like this?
Seth: Right.
David: There's so much evil inside of the quote unquote church.
Seth: Right.
David: Why?
Seth: But the history of the church, though-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is they don't listen to prophets like that, right? [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: And so what has to happen, somebody on the outside has to judge the hypocrisy of the church on the inside.
David: The evil, the evil empires like Babylon-
Seth: Right
David: ... have to be used by God to judge the should be, would be righteous-
Seth: Right
David: ... inside the church.
Seth: I think a good example of this was, like, the Me Too movement.
David: Sure.
Seth: Something that started in Hollywood with the abuse of women by several Hollywood executives.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And a lot of women started calling out, "Me too."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I've been abused by these mens, men in power. I've been abused by these men in power." And this started a whole series of similar revelations within the church.
David: Yes.
Seth: Women saying they were abused by their pastors, the Catholic tradition had a ton of this happening around children with their priests.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it wasn't until Hollywood spoke up-
David: Right
Seth: ... that the church started to react.
David: Yes.
Seth: Babylon started rebuking the people of God.
David: Right.
Seth: And a lot of people within the church were mad that Babylon could even speak to the church.
David: Right. Why, why are we talking about the Me Too movement here inside church? That's a Twitter thing.
Seth: That's a Twitter thing. That's not a gospel issue. Let's preach the gospel here and let that be on the outside.
David: Right. It's like no, God maybe is using, like he did in Habakkuk's day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Babylon to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... rebuke his people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's-
Seth: Yeah. So that's an example of what we're talking about.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think even more contextually for Habakkuk, if the time period is Jehoiakim-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, it is the political enmeshment of God's people with the nations of Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt that leads to their judgment by Babylon.
David: Mm.
Seth: So remember, when Babylon comes to the gates of Jerusalem, when King Hezekiah is in power-
David: Oh, yeah, when Assyria comes
Seth: ... when, when Assyria comes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the gates of, uh, Hezeka- when Hezekiah's in power, this is a little bit before-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Jehoiakim, he has made all these illicit deals with Babylon and with Egypt to protect them from Assyria.
David: Yeah, he's making all these political alliances.
Seth: And then, uh, Assyria comes and says, "I've destroyed all your allies."
David: Yep.
Seth: "We're the most powerful people in town, and you think your trust in those nations could protect you now? You now, and now you're conveniently saying you're gonna trust in your God? No, your God has always been politics."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And it's not gonna help you in, in this moment."
David: Right. And so that, again, Assyria through, like, Sennacherib and all those people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... are coming as a mouthpiece of God against Israel's trust in politics.
Seth: That's right.
David: It happens.
Seth: It happens.
David: Yeah. I mean, yeah, it, it happens all the time. And God, God uses Assyria this way, you know, during the exile.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, it, he just goes on and on. God's not afraid to use the evil of this world to bring about good.
Seth: He's not, but that still has-
David: The issue
Seth: ... the issue.
David: The theodicy issue still exists.
Seth: So the theodicy is- all those examples we've just named-
David: Right
Seth: ... the people of God's enmeshment with the political powers of today, the Hollywood rebuking the church.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you're saying God is using the evils of Ba- Hollywood-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the political left and the political right to judge the people of God under God's law? And Habakkuk says-
David: Yes
Seth: ... yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the, but the question is, is that right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is God allowed to do that?
David: I remember thinking this when we were in Samuel and, um, Saul goes to a necromancer, the Witch of Endor-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... and raises the spirit of Samuel from the dead. And, like, actually Samuel shows up from beyond the realm of the dead through-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a witch and talks to Saul. And I'm like, "Is this okay?" Like-
Seth: Is God allowed to-
David: Like, God said no witchcraft
Seth: ... is God allowed to use witchcraft to-
David: Like
Seth: ... prove witches wrong?
David: He's like, but-
Seth: Like, to prove Saul wrong?
David: Yeah. It's like he just, did he just break his own law? What's happening here? It's like, didn't he say he won't, like, he can't be around evil nations, and yet he's gonna use evil nations? That's what Habakkuk is frustrated with and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... confused by. And so he sits down on his watchtower and he says, "Give me an answer. I'ma sit right here until you do." [gentle music]
Seth: So what is God's answer to the problem of God using evil?
David: Whoa. Whoa, hold on.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, I'm just [laughs] that's, that's his answer is-
Seth: Is whoa
David: ... is whoa.
Seth: Is whoa.
David: Whoa.
Seth: He said, well, God says, "Okay, uh, Habakkuk, I want you to get a piece of paper out."
David: Yep.
Seth: "And I want you to draw in really big letters-"
David: [laughs]
Seth: "... because I want people even running by the walls to be able to read my answer to the problem of me using evil."
David: Yes.
Seth: So I got excited, but oh, God's-
David: Oh, good
Seth: ... gonna give me-
David: A big old easy to see answer.
Seth: The theodicy problem will be solved.
David: Yeah, so good.
Seth: So much so that, like, if I was in a marathon running by, you know, people like hold up signs like, "Go, go, you can do it. You're doing so good."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Those are, like, the side signs.
David: On mile 14, I'm, like, exhausted, but I'm still gonna be able to understand the problem of evil in the world.
Seth: Whoo.
David: That's what I'm-
Seth: I'm excited
David: ... I'm excited about.
Seth: Okay. He says-
David: And he's like, "I'm gonna give you a vision-
Seth: Yep
David: ... that's gonna come at its appointed time," and it will come at its appointed time.
Seth: Yeah, so wait for it.
David: Wait for it.
Seth: Yeah. It's not gonna delay. It's gonna happen. If it seems like it's not happening yet, keep waiting. [laughs]
David: And here's the answer in verse four, "Behold, his soul is arrogant," or puffed up. The King of Babylon's soul is puffed up.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "It is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by faith."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is one of the most famous passages-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in all of scripture.
Seth: Gets quoted in the New Testament.And so the question I immediately have is by his faith in what?
David: Right.
Seth: And what it seems to be saying is the answer to the problem of evil will be bound up by Habakkuk's faith in the vision he's about to receive.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the problem of evil is by trusting a vision. So does that make sense? I was like, that was like-
David: I, I think so
Seth: ... I was like, I was like that was, that was a big move for me. It was like, okay, the righteous shall live by faith is in the context of-
David: A vision
Seth: ... of a vision. And so God, I'm about to give it to you, I'm about to give it to you, the righteous people, the people that will remain in Israel, faithful af- after Babylon has come, will live by trusting this vision.
David: And, and conversely-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the wicked will not.
Seth: That's right.
David: Why? 'Cause they don't, they don't think they need a vision because their souls are puffed up and not upright.
Seth: That's right.
David: They, they're arrogant. They don't need me to tell... They don't need me to give them the solution. They think they are the solution.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so it's the, the righteous ones are the ones who are gonna have faith in this thing I'm about to show you.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I think it's helpful to stop here and say faith is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is a, is a tricky word.
Seth: It is a tricky word.
David: Number one, because it's just so loaded for those of us who grew up in Christianity. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, it almost has no meaning anymore.
David: It almost has no meaning anymore 'cause it can mean f- like belief-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in, in something.
Seth: Belief in an idea-
David: Right
Seth: ... or a set of truths.
David: Right. It can mean trust, like having faith in a chair, so I sit down in it and trust it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But it can also mean like faithfulness, which is, is a, is one of the ways that if you like have an ESV, at least mine is footnoted that it could mean faithfulness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so faithfulness is like a posture of steadfast perseverance.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That you're remaining faithful to God in the midst of whatever.
Seth: Right, and I think that last meaning might be the primary meaning that Habakkuk means here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The righteous will live by patient endurance through this vision.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and so, um, just to prove that point, later on in Habakkuk, at the very end of Habakkuk, he doesn't use the word faith, but he says, "I will quietly wait-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for the day of trouble to come upon the people who will invade us," which is, spoiler alert, the vision that we're about to receive.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, so patient waiting-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... patient endurance-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is faith.
David: Yep. And, and, and like to go ahead and just lay it all out there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... patient endurance might be the answer to the problem of evil.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So God, so let's, let's go ahead and say what, what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the vision is.
David: Okay, so here's the vision. Go for it.
Seth: The vision is a series of woes against Babylon-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... prophesying that Babylon's evil will be judged someday soon.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he gives very specific reasons why Babylon will be judged in a series of five woes. But just to pause right there for a second, how do the righteous live? The righteous live by patiently enduring the justice that will come against evil nations. You, the righteous must live through-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a period of judgment against evil nations that they're a part of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... complicit of, trapped in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... enslaved by, but the righteous live by patiently waiting until evil is destroyed.
David: Yes.
Seth: That is faith.
David: Right.
Seth: Patiently waiting until evil is destroyed.
David: Yes. And the vision is that God will des- God is coming to destroy evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with Babylon, but the vision he sees is that Babylon will be destroyed.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. But like I think it, it begs that question that you, you brought up earlier, where it's like, okay, so is Babylon gonna be stro- be destroyed by a newer, badder nation?
Seth: Right.
David: And evil will just continually multiply-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that it can beat itself and then grow more-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... hideous and beat itself and grow more hideous? Is this the cycle that we're on here?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think God says no, because ultimately, it's not evil that will take over the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But all evil will end up being brought to nothing. Verse 13, "It will, it will be brought to fire and, and be made naught."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "It will be brought to nothing." Uh, that's what the whole world is tarrying for, working for, toiling at.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: No matter what empires they build, no matter how big Babylon gets-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it'll be brought to nothing.
Seth: What you're saying is the vision is detailing the fact that these evil nations will be judged until there's no evil left to judge.
David: Until there's no evil left to judge, because then what's left then?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So what fills the earth? If, if, if it's not evil empires judging evil empires over and over again until they fill the earth-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what is the vision of the future that we should have? It's the, one of the most famous verses in the Bible-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... verse 14. "For the earth will be filled," not with a bunch of evil empires-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "but with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."
Seth: So the vision is, uh, evil empires being finally judged, and then God's glory resting over the entire world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Justice finally reigning.
David: Right. And I think it's important, we, we're bringing up this, this picture, this image. Um, I think it's important to, to pull in a little bit of, um, Habakkuk's prayer from chapter three-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where he's gonna talk about God judging the sea and the rivers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because these were these like chaotic Canaanite gods that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... get mentioned and picked up in the very beginning of the Bible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: When the spirit's hovering over the face of the waters, there's this chaos and wickedness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and violence that covers the earth that were in a lot of early Canaanite mythologies about how the world was made.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God is saying that, that now those Canaanite monsters-
Seth: Right
David: ... those chaotic water gods are like Babylon and Assyria.
Seth: Mm.
David: They're just, you know, swallowing up empires.
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right, right.
David: And God, but God's-
Seth: I see
David: ... using them and reigning them in, and then eventually what's going to happen-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is God's glory is going to cover the world like the sea.
Seth: No longer will the chaotic monsters of s-The gods-
David: Yes
Seth: ... cover the world. No longer will the chaotic, chaotic monsters of Assyria and Babylon cover the world but the waters of God's glory and peace will cover the world.
David: That's right. And, like, the water will cover the world, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But that water will be of peace and knowledge of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and His glory. And so, like, all tumult-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all waves will cease to crash-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and God will bring peace to the world.
Seth: So-
David: That's his vision
Seth: ... the theodicy God offers is say, "Okay, God, why are you using evil to judge evil if you are good?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And God says, "Do not worry. I'm using evil to judge evil until there's no evil left to judge-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and all that's left is justice in my name."
David: Yes, because, and, and what he, what he does-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in this, in this vision is he, he constantly uses this idea that, uh, the things that, that Babylon used to hurt Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... will be used to hurt Babylon.
Seth: I see.
David: That there's a proportionate and ironic justice-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... if Babylon uses arrows-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that then arrows will be used against Babylon. That's the idea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because think about this problem we keep setting up, that one evil empire emerges, and so a bigger, badder, evil, evil, evil empire comes to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... defeat it. Well, if you actually take that mental exercise infinitum, what happens is evil will end up eating its own tail.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Evil will self-destruct-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it will all collapse in on itself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's almost the fated end of the world is that evil will destroy itself until there's nothing left [laughs].
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm not saying God's just sitting back doing nothing, waiting for evil to destroy itself. He's using it and w- working in it.
Seth: But that's the answer.
David: But that's the answer.
Seth: Is that-
David: Ultimately evil will be no more
Seth: ... Habakkuk, don't worry about me using evil, because I'm using evil to wipe out evil forever.
David: Yes. I'm using evil ironically to destroy evil.
Seth: And that's the... And so for, for, for, for me, I'm like, that's a good answer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not all the answer I want.
David: It's not good enough to put on a marathon billboard?
Seth: I'm like, yeah, if I read that by on my marathon, I'm like-
David: Don't worry, God's using evil to destroy evil. You're like, cool.
Seth: And then-
David: I'm, I keep thinking, finish the race
Seth: ... and one day everything will be justice. I'll be like, okay, that's good.
David: Mm.
Seth: I like that answer. Uh-
David: What's, what's missing for you?
Seth: I mean, but isn't... How is God good in that, right? Like, like, there's all that like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it's like that is an answer. I have, okay, God is powerful enough to use evil to eat its own tail and establish His reign of justice once it's all said-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and done. And by faith in that vision, I will remain, okay? I think I can patiently endure under the evil empires of the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... until that day, but it doesn't solve all the philosophical problems I have or, you know, like, the emotional problems I have with that.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and so I kinda want more, but I also find myself l- catching myself.
David: Mm.
Seth: I'm like, God... Habakkuk asked the question very bluntly-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a situation that was far more dire than my own.
David: Sure.
Seth: And this was the answer God gave Habakkuk as his, his word on the matter.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like, I'm gonna give you this one answer, 'cause there's more answers you could give.
David: There's more answers, yeah.
Seth: But this is the one that He's decided to give Habakkuk.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so part of me also feels like I wanna be satisfied with the answer-
David: Right
Seth: ... that the righteous will live by faith, that evil is coming to an end soon.
David: Right. Oh, 'cause we need to circle back to that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That that's not the end of the answer. The end of the answer is not just that God will end up using evil to destroy all evil until no evil is left.
Seth: Right.
David: But also that the righteous will have faith that that is true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like-
Seth: So right
David: ... and the arrogant puff themselves up and say that's not enough.
Seth: Right. That's what I'm feeling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm feeling like, oh, that's an answer.
David: I didn't mean to call you arrogant.
Seth: Oh, I mean-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... we all know it's true. But, like, that's what I'm, that's what I'm feeling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm like, okay, I need to patiently endure un-
David: And yeah
Seth: ... I need to patiently endure evil until it's over.
David: Yeah, and e- I also-
Seth: Not knowing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when that will happen.
David: Right, or and I also need to patiently endure my own, uh, like, hang ups with this answer.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, I need to patiently endure the revelation of full knowledge 'cause, like, the, it's the knowledge of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and his glory-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... will cover the earth. Eventually we'll, we'll know how all this works out, and all of our philosophical quandaries will be satiated. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: But right now we have to even patiently endure our own ignorance.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the way that I wrote it in the devotional, I was like, "No answer fully explains God's toleration of evil, but it's significant that God doesn't say that the righteous live by satisfied curiosity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or answered question. They live by trusting, by patiently enduring that God will make things right soon."
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: And I'm like, I feel myself, like, okay, that's actually a bigger ask than I thought it would be. Does that make sense? Like-
David: Yeah, totally
Seth: ... to patiently endure the current evil of the world until it ends-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is a harder ask than here's all the answers that your curiosity demands. [gentle music]
David: So as I've been thinking about your question about, like, is that a, a good enough answer, you know, like, you kinda wanted more.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, uh, like, okay, all evil will be done away with. That's good. God's using evil to destroy evil till all evil's gone. That's good. But, like, it's good, but I still just feel like there is a little bit more I want, and I feel like Habakkuk kind of agrees with you because he then goes on to pray in response to this vision and asks God for a theophany, and we talked about this.
Seth: Mm.
David: He wants God to just show up. It kinda is like he wants-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God to just, like-Stop working behind the scenes and stop just moving nations to-
Seth: That's right
David: ... do stuff and just, like, come like he did in the Exodus.
Seth: Yeah, Gene- uh, Ha- Habakkuk 3 is filled with references to Exodus, Egypt-
David: The plagues
Seth: ... the plagues.
David: Yeah, because in that, in that story, it wasn't like, "And so to free E- E- Israel from Egypt, God raised up the powerful nation of X, Y, Z and brought them in." No, God just showed up-
Seth: Showed up
David: ... like ex nihilo and just-
Seth: Right
David: ... brought plagues and freed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... His people, and he's like, "Can you just do that?"
Seth: Hmm.
David: And-
Seth: And, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to solve the, the initial problem, your, your people have forgot your law. He also references, like, Mount Sinai-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and how God showed up on Mount Sinai and gave them a-
David: Right
Seth: ... new law and made-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel His people.
David: I know You can just show up and do stuff.
Seth: Hmm.
David: What's amazing is at the end of this prayer, he knows that it's Babylon that's coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's willing to patiently wait for that to wash over him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, he, it, it, it's, he's longing for something, but consigns himself to know as a prophet-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that Babylon is going to come and wipe us out, and I'm going to have to patiently endure that with the faith that I'll come out the other side.
Seth: He becomes an example of the faith that he tells us to live by.
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: He's like, "Okay, I know you will show up one day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but I know I have to endure right now."
David: Yeah. Habakkuk doesn't really get what he asks for.
Seth: But we do.
David: But we do. [laughs]
Seth: In Jesus.
David: Yes, Jesus is the theophany that fixes the theodicy to right the theocracy. [laughs] I just had to do it.
Seth: Okay, Baptist David came out for a second.
David: I had to do it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I, it wasn't planned.
Seth: 10-dollar word Baptist David-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... has come out. You got all the alliteration-
David: Come on out
Seth: ... in a row.
David: But it is cool, right? The idea-
Seth: Yes
David: ... here is that, that H- Habakkuk wanted God to just show up and deal with the problem of evil forever.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in Jesus, He does. Jesus is the ultimate theophany, the revelation, the showing up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of God in the flesh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order to deal with the problem of evil once and for all. But what's amazing is he uses the same Habakkuk strategy to pull it off.
Seth: Right.
David: He doesn't just come and just go step on Caesar's head.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? That's what every- that's what all the Israelites wanted him to do. They were gonna make him king by force and use his magic powers to overthrow the Roman government.
Seth: That's right.
David: That was their idea. They were, like, all with Habakkuk's theophany idea.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But Jesus is like, "I'm still gonna use the same wis- wise strategy that I used back when Babylon was taking over Israel."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ex- but instead of using Babylon, I'm gonna use the new wicked-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... world empire, Rome.
Seth: Yeah, but before he repeats the Habakkuk strategy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of being judged, like, being overwhelmed by evil first, he also does everything Habakkuk asks for.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Habakkuk wants God to show up, like, with the splendor of heavens and brightness of light come out of His hands.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He does that at the Mount of Transfiguration.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He wants, um, plagues to come from God. Jesus reverses that and heals plagues.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like a plague, He brings healing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like the opposite of a plague. He, um, uh-
David: He does war-
Seth: ... walks-
David: ... with the, the sea monsters
Seth: ... he does war with the sea monsters in the chaotic waters of the Sea of Galilee by walking on top of them. When He... And then when, to your point, we expect Him to take a throne-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... He dies at the power of Rome.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But the next theophanies happen. Habakkuk wants the mountains to shake-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... and the sky to be darkened.
David: That happens at Jesus's death.
Seth: That happens at Jesus's death. He, He-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... and then verse 13, "You went out for the salvation of Your people and the salvation of Your anointed, and you crushed the house of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck." And then the next verse talks about, "You pierced with his own arrows the heads of his warriors."
David: Hmm.
Seth: The reason I just quote all that is to, you have the salvation of the anointed that's been crushed. You have the crushing of a head, which is really old language from the Book of Genesis to talk about the ultimate defeat of Satan and evil.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then the skewering of the head of a, of an empire.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right in quick succession.
David: Right.
Seth: So you have Jesus dying in the middle of a theophany-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... repeating the pattern that Habakkuk has given us that evil will overwhelm evil, but this time evil's-
David: Evil's overwhelming-
Seth: ... overwhelming-
David: ... good
Seth: ... good.
David: It's like the, it, Habakkuk's question of, like, why are you, why are you sitting idly by as wicked nations destroy those more righteous than they are?
Seth: Yes.
David: But this time, He's infinitely more righteous.
Seth: Right.
David: He's perfect. Why did God sit... You have a theodicy issue?
Seth: Hmm.
David: Take it up with the cross. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Like, why would God sit, quote unquote, "idly by"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whenever the wickedness of Rome overtook the only truly perfectly righteous one?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, that's-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's a theodicy issue, which I know, like, a lot of non-Christians-
Seth: Right
David: ... would, would bring that up.
Seth: And what's interesting, I'm thinking as, as you're saying all this, like, the problem has been evil nation devours evil nation, devours evil nation, devours evil nation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and leaves behind it the same-
David: More evil
Seth: ... evil that it, it left behi- that it destroyed.
David: Right, that's all they are.
Seth: It's, uh, uh, it replaced oppression with new oppression.
David: Yes.
Seth: Replaced slavery with new slavery.
David: Yes.
Seth: Replaced greed with new greed. So what happens then when you have someone who enters into that cycle like Jesus?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God shows up-
David: Right
Seth: ... as the King of a depraved Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So God is acting like a King of Israel, right? But all His people are equally as corrupt as they are, as Habakkuk describes, but He's a righteous king of an unrighteous people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it... But what happens then when another evil army-
David: Swallows Him up
Seth: ... swallows an unrighteous people, but a righteous king?
David: Right. I- it's a wrench in the spokes.
Seth: It's like-
David: It grinds the gears
Seth: ... oh, this is-
David: The system-
Seth: The system breaks
David: ... breaks.
Seth: Yes. And so what happens is Jesus is lift- is resurrected from the dead.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Just like Israel was resurrected from exile.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's given a name and authority above all nations and empires
David: Because he faithfully persevered, right?
Seth: He, he endured through-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the evil.
David: His endurance.
Seth: And now what we could expect is, okay now Jesus has been given authority over all the evil nations of the earth. Will he be like all the other nations of the earth? Will he be evil again?
David: Oh.
Seth: He has all the power now.
David: He has all the power now. Usually everybody that has all the power becomes evil.
Seth: Becomes evil, but will Jesus?
David: Yeah, and then no, he rules with equity and justice and perfection. And so then when he comes again on the final day of judgment, it's not Babylon or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Syria or Rome or Syria or some evil empire.
Seth: It's the kingdom of heaven. It's the kingdom of God.
David: It's the kingdom of heaven comes, judges evil, and what's left?
Seth: Good.
David: Good.
Seth: For the first time.
David: For the first time when evil is judged, because it's judged by a perfect kingdom, all that's left is good. And what happens? God's, the knowledge of the glory of God covers the earth as water covers the sea-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because the only kingdom left is Jesus's.
Seth: Yeah. So let me, let me say that again 'cause I-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... this is really... I, like I've never thought about it this way.
David: Yeah, me neither.
Seth: So like-
David: It's super cool
Seth: ... so you have an oppressive nation eating another oppressive nation-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... leaving, destroying the old oppression-
David: Right, good
Seth: ... judging it-
David: Good
Seth: ... judge, but replacing it with a new version of the same thing.
David: Bad.
Seth: That happens again and again and again and again. And then all of a sudden you come to Jesus. He's the King of heaven.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's the l- king of the Kingdom of God. And let's, we can take, maybe take him out for a second as like the leader of a unrighteous Israel.
David: Sure, yeah.
Seth: Just, just leave him as a new type of king-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... leading a new type of people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who won't oppress people.
David: Right.
Seth: But he gets thrown-
David: His disciples
Seth: ... his disciples.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is thrown into that same system and is devoured by it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But defeats it-
David: Right
Seth: ... miraculously-
David: Yes
Seth: ... on the cross. Now every other nation has used it for evil, but God doesn't.
David: Right.
Seth: Because his nation isn't based on oppression-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but liberation.
David: Right.
Seth: It's not based on slavery, but freedom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not based on greed, but generosity.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I'm trying to think of more-
David: It j- j-
Seth: ... antonyms
David: ... it just breaks everything.
Seth: He breaks everything.
David: Yeah. And he, and what's good is he does still come to judge. This is the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... end of the vision, right?
Seth: Right.
David: This is the, this is what's written on the, on the sign-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's plain as day to see, is that woe to the evil nations, because one day they will be judged.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's only enough to write on a poster and be good motivation-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... for mile 25.
Seth: Right.
David: Whenever it's Jesus will judge all evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because what will he leave behind? A perfect kingdom of righteousness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, that is a good enough, good enough news to fix the theodicy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the righteous live by patiently enduring until the coming of Jesus.
David: Yeah. Right. How can we be righteous today as Christians in a confusing, polluted world and church that even the nations sometimes rise up to judge? [laughs]
Seth: We don't bail out.
David: We don't bail out.
Seth: We patiently endure until that coming day. Can we talk about all the different times that that phrase, the righteous will live by faith-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... show up in the New Testament?
David: Let's do it.
Seth: So, like, that's a really, it's a really famous scripture for a reason, because it's repeated over and over again throughout, uh, the Nest- New Testament. And I don't know which one the first one would be chronologically. I guess Romans. Romans 1:17-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, is the first time it shows up in the New Testament. And here he says this. Romans 1:17. I'll start in 16. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel because it's the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile." And I think that's interesting based on how Habakkuk worked out.
David: Mm.
Seth: Judgment came against Israel first before it came against Babylon.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and then he says, "For in this, the gospel, the righteousness of God is... For in the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written, 'The righteous will live by faith.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: Now at first I was like, man, that doesn't seem to be the patient enduring that I understood from Habakkuk.
David: Mm.
Seth: But I continued to read Paul throughout Romans 1 and 2.
David: Yes.
Seth: In Romans 2:9 he says this, uh, "For those that, who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger," something about Israel. "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then for the Gentile." The good news that the righteous will live by faith, first for the Jew, then for the-
David: Right
Seth: ... Gentile is paralleled with judgment is coming, first for the Jew, and then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the Gentile, which is the same p- thing that happens in the Book of Habakkuk.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Judgment comes for Israel first before it comes for Babylon.
David: Yep.
Seth: But justice come... Like, the remnant, the righteous will live by faith in the promises of God for Israel, and from them the whole world is saved.
David: Mm.
Seth: So d- d- do you see what I'm... Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... do you see more there than I'm seeing? I'm like these are more parallels than I realized were in the Romans 1-
David: No
Seth: ... section.
David: I mean, I mean, yeah, but even the very next verse, uh, verse 18 right after talks about the wrath of God being revealed from heaven.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it's like, okay, there's wrath and, like, evil-
Seth: Sinful
David: ... being judged.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And so how do you, how do you live righteous in a world full of evil where evil's being judged by a righteous God?
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right, right, right.
David: Where evil just keeps being judged by, uh, you just, keeps being judged. How do you, how do you live in that kind of a world?
Seth: Mm.
David: Through faith.
Seth: Through faith.
David: Faith in what? That ultimately all that evil will go away.
Seth: Yeah. And that in Jesus it has begun.
David: Right.
Seth: The day where his glory will cover the seas.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The kingdom that breaks the cycle has come.
David: Right. And that is the gospel.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? That is the gospel, is that Jesus is the righteous one who by faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... endured the cross.
Seth: Yep.
David: Right? Yeah, he patiently endured the cross-
Seth: Yes
David: ... so that, yes. That is the power of the gospel. So in a sense, like, what is the power of the gospel for the Christian today? It's patient endurance in the midst of a world of chaos.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's good- that's the good news-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is that Jesus is coming back to bring a perfect kingdom, so you can endure anything this world can throw at you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's just good news.
Seth: This is the way Hebrews use it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right before Hebrews 11, w- the hall of fame of faith, where all these famous people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... have faith, right before it, Hebrews 11, the very last verses of Hebrews 10 quotes Habakkuk, and he says, "You suffered all of this stuff," speaking to the, the, the Christians in Rome, and says, "But the righteous will live by faith, so don't shrink back, um, e- even though you are destroyed, but have faith and be saved." And the next thing he says, now faith is what? Believing or h- having confidence in something that you haven't seen yet.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What is that thing that they haven't seen yet? The coming kingdom of God.
David: Yeah, yeah. He t- he says it's the city that we cannot see yet.
Seth: Right, and then there's all these examples of promises God has made to people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that they believe though having not seen it yet. They patiently endured a season of suffering-
David: Yes
Seth: ... until the reality came to be. So, like Sarai and Abraham.
David: Right, they are the prototypical example of this.
Seth: They bec- well, one, because in Genesis 15-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we're sh- we're shown a covenant that is based on faith.
David: Yep.
Seth: But here too, they patiently endured barrenness and infertility until the promised son came.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He would be the promised son whose descendant would be the, the kingdom bringer.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right, yes. Yeah. So this, I mean, this is just an interesting way to think about faith for the Christian-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that faith is patient endurance until the day of Jesus's return.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know?
Seth: And that's how we're, and that's how we're saved.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's how we live.
David: Yeah, I mean, yeah. W- uh, I think it's Romans 8 will say that by such faith you are saved.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's faith in what? In the fact that God is, Jesus is coming back.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it, that there is, there is, there is something tied up in our belief in the second coming of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and His destruction of all evil, and His planting of a nation of eternal righteousness where the knowledge of Him covers the world as waters cover the sea. There's something tied up in that truth and belief and trust and patient endurance for that truth that is the essence of Christian faith.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, what does it mean to have faith? It means to believe that Jesus died for your sins, rose from the dead, and is bringing His kingdom.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That a king of righteousness is coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I, it, it, we just don't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... talk about faith that way anymore.
Seth: Well, and what it assumes is, like, 'cause he, he said, "The righteous will live by faith."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, what does he mean by live? You know, like, that's like, you-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... you like, what, like, what, what is that, why is that good news to Habakkuk?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: 'Cause how do you, I mean, how do you, how do, how do you even go on-
Seth: Right
David: ... whenever you're about to be swallowed up by an evil empire?
Seth: And-
David: How do you even live? How do you even go out and, like, buy bread-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just depressed, everything's going down?
Seth: Well, one thing that keeps striking me in all these examples is, like, the inevitability, uh, y- you can't be a Christian without suffering is what it feels like.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You can't be a Christian without injustice and evil around you.
David: Right.
Seth: To be a follower of Jesus means to patiently endure with the chaos of injustice all around you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And to hope for it to end.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I'm thinking of that, like the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, you can't be a follower of Jesus without being in the context of injustice and evil and suffering.
David: No. And that's because a follower of Jesus doesn't fall in line with the oppressors.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So where are you gonna go? With the oppressed.
Seth: Right.
David: If you can't oppress others, you're gonna be oppressed. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: If you, if you can't be evil, you're gonna have to be good. And what do evil people do to good people? They exploit them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... take advantage of them, trample on them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so since you can't, as a disciple of Jesus, be a part of Babylon, you are going to have to be a part-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of Habakkuk's remnant-
Seth: Right
David: ... waiting patiently for Babylon to wash over you-
Seth: So-
David: ... but having faith that there's hope on the other side
Seth: So do you think when Habakkuk says, "The righteous will live by faith," do you think he's talking about something beyond this life? Because the th- the idea of just patiently enduring-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for a coming kingdom that they may never see even after death makes me believe that Habakkuk must have been thinking about life beyond his own life, right?
David: I mean, I think this is a classic example of what might be called double fulfillment or, or like a, the, the spirit meaning of the text 'cause I don't know if Habakkuk was expecting some final resurrection.
Seth: Mm.
David: Maybe he was at this point. I don't know.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We can't prove that, but, like, uh, I'm thinking of how, how Paul, uh, interprets the word living, um, that, that, uh, he says [laughs] he talks about how, uh, he, that God, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Well, they're, they're the living, not the dead, you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And he, like, goes on this big, long tangent about it.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And he just, like, uses that as a jumping-off point to make a, a larger new covenant point, and I'm like, "Okay, if he can do that, [laughs] I think-"
Seth: I think we can do it here.
David: I think we can say that the point here is that though you die-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because you have patient endurance, faithfulness in the second coming of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you will live.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The righteous will eternally live, resurrectingly live.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: By faith.
Seth: I'm also wondering if there's, like, the im- so, like, I think that's right.
David: Mm.
Seth: There is, the righteous will live eternally-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by trusting that evil will end, and Jesus is coming back.
David: Yes.
Seth: But I'm also wondering if, like, the righteous will live in the sense of, like, they will finally experience justice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... um, by trusting that justice will come not by their hand.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause that's, that's part of it. Like, Habakkuk wants God to enact justice, and God says, "Okay, I'll enact justice at the hands of the Babylonians."
David: Right.
Seth: And so part of hoping is that trusting God can use the forces of Babylon and Hollywood-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and China-
David: Right
Seth: To actually undo the evil within our own churches.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You know, like, I'm like-
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: I'm like-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we, and the righteous will live experiencing measure of justice. The righteous innocent will live.
David: Oh, because we'll be able to see with Habakkuk's oracle.
Seth: Yeah. That's a yes.
David: That, that, like, oh, this isn't all bad whenever this, whenever the Me Too movement sweeps through churches and shuts them down.
Seth: Right.
David: It's actually kind of good because evil's been judged, although at great cost.
Seth: At great cost, yeah.
David: So they are living, they can go on living.
Seth: Yeah, and we can live, like, vindicated-ly.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: I understand
Seth: ... like a life that's vindicated.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Our innocence is vindicated in a sense.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: 'Cause we survived through it.
Seth: We survived through it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And because we're the true people of God, not the abusers, not the oppressors.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They have been cleansed of the church, and the church has been purified.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes. I think that's really good. I think there might be a third meaning to live, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is, um, more practical, like the way you live.
Seth: Mm.
David: You will live by faithfulness.
Seth: Mm.
David: You're going to, you, you hinted at it earlier, you're going to act differently and treat people differently because you know Jesus is coming back to judge evil. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... you're going to, I mean, like, Paul gets there. You know, he quotes this in, in, in chapter 1 of Romans, and then by chapter, uh, 12, he gets to this point, and he says, "Justice is mine," says the Lord, "So therefore, repay no one evil for evil."
Seth: Mm.
David: Which is what we had just been talking about.
Seth: Right. Right, right, right.
David: In chapter 12 of Romans, he says-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Don't repay anyone evil for evil."
Seth: Jesus broke the cycle, don't continue it.
David: Yes. Don't go back to Habakkuk's time-
Seth: Mm
David: ... whenever you needed Babylon to judge Israel, because now Jesus has broken the cycle, and now he says, "Justice is mine. I will repay," says the Lord.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so therefore, the way we treat other people who mean us harm and who do evil against us, we no longer have to repay evil to them because we live by a different standard.
Seth: Live and
David: We live-
Seth: ... breathe them
David: ... knowing that the Kingdom of God is coming, and so that changes the way that we functionally-
Seth: Mm
David: ... live in this world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. That's a lot.
Seth: [coughs]
David: Bless you.
Seth: Sorry.
David: No, you're fine. You got choked up.
Seth: I did get choked up.
David: You, I mean, what el- I mean, we're, we're running out of time.
Seth: We're running out of time, but I think that is the Book of Habakkuk.
David: Okay.
Seth: Habakkuk begins with an evil Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God promises to judge Israel's evil and oppression by sending Babylon.
David: Mm.
Seth: Habakkuk asks, "Why-
David: "Why?" [laughs]
Seth: ... why, God? How can you be good and do so?" God says, "I promise to destroy evil." Habakkuk says, "Well, then come soon and does it," and he does in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the story of Habakkuk.
David: That's so beautiful. I really am surprised by this book.
Seth: I was, too. I was, I think that one of the things that first struck me by it was just the Bible's willingness to answer-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to ask the question.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I think often I'm scared to ask questions like that. Okay, God, I'm gonna stand here until you give me an answer of why you use evil things.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the Bible ans- I don't have to do that as a skeptic.
David: Right.
Seth: The Bible does that within itself.
David: Yes.
Seth: As-
David: You can do it as a faithful believer
Seth: ... as a faithful believer and as a way of coming by an additional book of scripture.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Like, like the question that plagues people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... has become its own scripture.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah, one, one of the biggest threats to Christianity has been canonized. [laughs]
Seth: Right, which is amazing.
David: It's amazing.
Seth: Uh...
David: That's super cool. Okay, well that's the book of Habakkuk or Habakkuk. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
