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Hosea 4:1-5:7: Oracles of Doom

About This Episode

Most of Hosea's book are pronouncements of judgement against Israel for breaking her covenant with God. In a lot of ways, Hosea reads like a legal document citing offences and doling out punishments. Seth and David reflect on both God's justice towards Israel, but also the surprising fact that while God's judgment needs a reason, his love does not.

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God's Case Against Israel and the Husband Who Never Leaves: Hosea 4:1–5:7

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart continue their series through the book of Hosea, turning to one of the darkest stretches of the prophetic text. Before diving in, they offer a content warning: Hosea is full of intense and often sexual imagery, so listeners with children nearby should use discretion. With that caveat in place, the episode walks through Hosea 4:1–5:7, a passage that functions as a divine courtroom scene in which God lays out exhibit after exhibit of evidence against Israel's covenant unfaithfulness — and then reveals the Gospel that shines even in the darkest corners.

God Brings a Charge: Covenant-Breaking on a National Scale

Hosea 4 opens with courtroom language. God has a "controversy" with the inhabitants of the land, and the charge is sweeping: there is no faithfulness, no steadfast love, and no knowledge of God in Israel. The only things that do fill the land are cursing, lying, murder, stealing, and adultery. Three of those terms are the exact Hebrew words found in the Ten Commandments, which means this is not a vague moral complaint — it is a formal indictment for breaking the covenant God established with Israel at Mount Sinai. The Hebrew phrase behind "bloodshed follows bloodshed" is even more vivid: "murder touches murder," meaning there is no gap between acts of violence. As soon as one crime is committed, the next one begins.

The consequences are cosmic. The land itself dries up, and the beasts, birds, and fish are swept away (Hosea 4:3). This language echoes Genesis 6 and the flood narrative, where the wickedness of humanity led to the uncreation of the world. Israel's disobedience is not just upsetting God in the abstract — it is unraveling creation itself. The commands that constituted Israel as a nation are being shattered, so God is undoing the very land He gave them. Both the Exodus story and the Genesis creation account are being reversed at once.

The Failure of the Priesthood: A System Built on Complicity

A major theme in this passage is the catastrophic failure of Israel's priests. Hosea 4:6 delivers one of the most quoted lines in the book: "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge." The priests were supposed to teach the people the covenant — the terms of their relationship with God. Instead, they abandoned that responsibility. God responds by rejecting them from the priesthood. This rejection operates on two levels. It applies to individual priests who neglected their duty, and it also applies to the entire nation, which was called at Sinai to be a "kingdom of priests" that would mediate God's blessing to the whole world (Exodus 19:6). That vocation is now being revoked.

What makes the situation even darker is the codependency between priests and people. Hosea 4:8 says the priests "feed on the sins of my people and relish their wickedness." Under the Levitical system, priests received a portion of the sacrifices people brought. But now the system has become so corrupt that priests actually want the people to keep sinning — more sin means more sacrifices, which means more food and more money. It functions like an Old Testament version of the indulgences that sparked the Protestant Reformation, where religious leaders profited from the guilt of the people rather than addressing it. The people, meanwhile, refuse to listen to the priests who do try to call them back. Everyone in the system — leaders and laypeople alike — is feeding off the corruption. The analogy extends uncomfortably into the present: churches that refuse to call rebellion what it is because doing so might shrink attendance and dry up donations are caught in the same cycle.

Israel's Idolatry: Worshiping Whatever Is Useful

The passage takes a satirical turn when it describes the specifics of Israel's idol worship. The people consult wooden idols and ask their walking sticks for oracles (Hosea 4:12). The irony is biting — Hosea is essentially saying, "You know you're talking to a stick, right?" They sacrifice on mountaintops and under every kind of tree — oaks, poplars, terebinths — not for any theological reason, but because the shade is nice. The humor is intentional and pointed. Israel is choosing its places of worship based on convenience and comfort, offering reasons of minor utility for acts of massive apostasy.

This is the deeper diagnosis: Israel worships whatever is useful. Their spirituality has become entirely mercenary. Baal worship entered Israel because it was thought to increase crop yields and improve diplomatic relations with the Canaanites. The passage describes a golden age of material prosperity in which the more the nation increased in wealth and population, the more it sinned (Hosea 4:7). This is exactly what God warned about in Deuteronomy — that once Israel had abundance, they would forget Him and chase other gods. The fertility cult of Baal worship created a vicious economic cycle: more children born into the system meant more taxpayers for the king, more customers for the cult prostitutes, and more workers for the land. Sin was literally multiplying with every generation. The parallel to what researcher Christian Smith called "moralistic therapeutic deism" — the idea that religion exists to tell you to be good, make you feel better, and provide a vague sense of a higher power — is hard to miss. When religion becomes a tool for personal comfort rather than an encounter with the living God, the result looks remarkably similar across millennia.

A Warning to Judah and the Coming Storm

As the indictment continues, God turns briefly to the southern kingdom of Judah with a warning: do not become guilty of the same things (Hosea 4:15). Specifically, Judah is told to stay away from Gilgal, which served as Israel's central command during the conquest, and Beth Aven — a mocking rename of Bethel, where Jeroboam set up the golden calves. "Beth Aven" means "house of evil." Judah is also told not to swear oaths at these places as though God were present there. The core of the covenant demanded one place of sacrifice — the temple. Going anywhere else and performing covenant ceremonies was punishable by death.

Israel, by contrast, is described as a stubborn heifer that cannot be led into open pasture (Hosea 4:16). Ephraim has "joined" itself to idols — the Hebrew carries sexual overtones, the same kind of "becoming one flesh" language that Paul later picks up in 1 Corinthians 6 when he warns against uniting the members of Jesus with a prostitute. Israel has become like the golden calves it built. And the passage closes with a grim image: "A wind has wrapped them in its wings" (Hosea 4:19). A storm of destruction is coming, and no one can stop it. By Hosea 5:4, the diagnosis is terminal — the people's deeds do not permit them to return to God. Not because God refuses them, but because the "spirit of whoredom" is within them and they do not know God. Their hearts are so hardened that repentance is no longer something they are capable of generating on their own.

The Gospel in the Darkness: Jesus, the Faithful Husband and Better Priest

Even in a passage this bleak, the Gospel is present — partly in what is said, and partly in who is saying it. The one delivering this devastating indictment is Hosea himself, who is also the man who married a woman out of prostitution, loved her extravagantly, and bought her back again when she returned to her old life. The metaphor of Hosea's marriage to Gomer is still running beneath the surface of every word. So even as God pronounces judgment, the voice pronouncing it belongs to a husband who refuses to leave.

Jesus fulfills this picture as the faithful husband who knows exactly what we have done and stays anyway. He does not sweep rebellion under the rug the way Israel's corrupt priests did — He calls it what it is. But instead of demanding a sacrifice from us, He offers Himself as the sacrifice. The law provided for a husband to make offerings on behalf of his unfaithful wife at great cost to himself, and that is precisely what Jesus does on the cross. He is the husband who sees the full depth of our adultery, names it, pays for it, and then gives us flowers. It is scandalous because it is meant to be. This is the story Hosea was living out in advance.

Jesus is also the better priest. Where Israel's priests neglected to teach the people, profited from their guilt, and let the knowledge of God disappear from the land, Jesus mediates God's presence not just externally but internally. He sends His Spirit to live inside of us. The "spirit of whoredom" that trapped Israel is replaced by the Spirit of adoption — the spirit of sons and daughters, of wives and husbands. What the passage calls an impossible return — "their deeds do not permit them to return to their God" (Hosea 5:4) — becomes possible because Jesus does what no human priest could. He dies, rises, and gives us His own Spirit so that our hard hearts of stone become soft hearts of flesh capable of loving God again. The nation that was supposed to be a kingdom of priests but failed is reconstituted in Jesus. As 1 Peter 2:9 declares, those who trust Jesus are once again a royal priesthood — not because they earned it, but because the husband who never leaves also never stops remaking His bride into a queen.

Transcript

David: Hey, everyone. Welcome to our series covering the Book of Hosea. Before we jump in, we wanted to offer a quick word about the sensitive nature of this book.

Seth: Hosea's full of really intense imagery, um, and often pretty sexual imagery. So if you're listening with your family or with kids, you might wanna be a little careful.

David: Yeah. We're not gonna get crazy explicit, but you just might want to use discretion when, uh, diving into this book with us. But we're excited to preach Christ out of it and go through the Book of Hosea with you. Here we go.

Intro: [Instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [Upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are in Hosea 4 and 5 today, right Seth? And what, what's Hosea 4 and 5 all about?

Seth: Yeah. We're looking kind of at how deeply paganized Israel's worship becomes.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, we talked about spiritual adultery in the introduction podcast, and so for the next ele- eight chapters-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... we're just shown how dark Israel's spirituality actually has become. And really, the only pieces of good news we're given is that, well, if they hit the bottom, the Lord- they'll call out to the Lord-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and the Lord will rescue. Um, and that kind of is important to know for us because it kinda proves that there's, like, no dark place, uh, that our friends, ourselves-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... our family can go that is beyond God's ability to bring them back.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and so that's kinda where we're going. We're going dark today.

David: Dark today. [laughs]

Seth: So that we can experience the light of God's goodness a little-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... bit more.

David: Okay, awesome.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so, yeah, chapter four opens pretty dark.

Seth: Yes, it does.

David: And God brings a charge against His people. This is, like, courtroom, lawsuit language, and God brings a charge against His people, Israel. Um, a-

Seth: "Hear the word of the Lord-"

David: Yes

Seth: ... "O children of Israel." And by the way, children of Israel-

David: Mm

Seth: ... you should be thinking, we have this whole category of a whore mother-

David: Right

Seth: ... with her whore children and Hosea's marriage to her, and these sign children speaking to them.

David: Right.

Seth: So like, "Hear, children of Israel," these adopted children of the whore, like, "Hear this."

David: Right, and it's a double entendre, right?

Seth: Yes.

David: Meaning, as, as my sign children are talking to these children of whoredom-

Seth: Right

David: ... it's the same thing as me being the m- Hosea being the mouthpiece of God speaking to Israel-

Seth: Yes

David: ... as a, as a nation.

Seth: And you should probably just have that in the back of your mind-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because Hosea's marriage kinda doesn't come up again.

David: Yeah, it kind of dissipates into the background.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You only get it in hints like this.

David: Right.

Seth: When you hear, "Children of Israel."

David: You're like, "Oh, right. There's a metaphor going on."

Seth: Oh, there's a metaphor going on, and that metaphor's really intense.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Seth: So that's what's happening.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And-

David: And so what he, the charge he brings against them i- is very wide sweeping, right?

Seth: He's a controversy with the inhabitants of the land.

David: [laughs] He says, "There is no faithfulness. There's no love. There's no acknowledgement of God in the land. You know the only thing there is in the whole land? There's only cursing, lying, murder, stealing and adultery. There's only breaking God's Ten Commandments. That's all there is."

Seth: Yes, and bloodshed follows bloodshed-

David: Yes

Seth: ... which in, in the Hebrew says, "Murder touches murder."

David: Ooh, that's better.

Seth: It's so much better.

David: It's better writing. [laughs]

Seth: 'Cause the idea is, like, there is, like, no gap-

David: Gap between murders

Seth: ... in the killing. It's just constant bloodshed.

David: As soon as, as soon as the police have arrived on the, on the scene of one murder-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... someone gets shot across the street.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Right.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And you should, so you said the word love. The word steadfast love-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... or covenant love-

David: Right

Seth: ... or hesed-

David: Hesed

Seth: ... which in the first three chapters we're reminded of is a callback to Mount Sinai-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the Ten Commandments. And so what do we have when he starts listing off?

David: They break, they're breaking the Ten Commandments.

Seth: Murder, lying, stealing, committing adultery.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, it's all there. He's saying, "This is the charge, Israel."

David: Right.

Seth: "You're doing wrong."

David: And, and like, and these aren't just synonyms. Three of the six that he mentions, um, are the actual exact same Hebrew word that are in the Ten Commandments. So he's m- intentionally pulling on that.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, uh, Jesus picks up on the same list in the-

David: Oh

Seth: ... Sermon on the Mount. Swearing falsely.

David: Oh, my goodness.

Seth: Making false oaths, lying, murdering, stealing, committing adultery.

David: My, my mind.

Seth: [laughs] Well, not stealing. He doesn't mention stealing, but bearing false witness, murder and committing adultery, all things Jesus talks about in the Sermon on the Mount.

David: Yeah, I mean, He kind of touches on stealing with, like, how you store up treasure in heaven or not.

Seth: He does. That's right, yeah.

David: Like, He touched on using money.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well-

Seth: Isn't that crazy?

David: Now I'm just, like, spiraling-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... on the implications of that, why Jesus would use that list.

Seth: Well, we talked about, last time, I mean, it's, they're covenant lists. It's a-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... covenant love list, going back to, uh, Mount Sinai-

David: Right

Seth: ... where God first married Israel. So he's just pulling on the same prophetic tradition that Hosea was.

David: Right.

Seth: We did on the first podcast that Jesus is a new Hosea.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And, like, things like this just prove that point a little bit further.

David: Whoa. Man, I'm sorry.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I was like, okay, maybe we'll, maybe I can come back to that later. The other thing I noticed as I was reading this, like, uh, there, there is no good in the land-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and bloodshed follows bloodshed, and then the land dries up, and everyone dies. You know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like the, "Those all who live waste away, even the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, the fish of the sea are all swept away." I'm like, this sounds a lot like Genesis 6.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? With its, like, this long line of murder and, like, blood-

Seth: Oh

David: ... blood being spilt.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? And then God looks out, and man's heart is evil all the time. There's no one who does good. And then the flood comes and-

Seth: Right

David: ... sweeps everyone away. It's like-

Seth: I was like-

David: ... this sounds like-The f- the, like, earliest parts of the fall that precipitated the flood.

Seth: Yeah. It's an act of uncreation.

David: Yes.

Seth: So-

David: Right

Seth: ... Israel has broken the commands that made them a nation, so God is uncreating them. He's uncreating-

David: Right

Seth: ... the very world that they're-

David: Right

Seth: ... the land that they're supposed to be on as a nation, he's devolving it-

David: Mm

Seth: ... into chaos.

David: So there's two really important things there with this uncreation of the land, one being this big metaphorical tie we're, we're, we're both trying to make back to the Garden of Eden and the flood, where, um, sin, ah, breaks creation. Like, I don- I don't think we see it that way so often, like sin upsets God-

Seth: Right

David: ... or it breaks his law.

Seth: When Israel-

David: You know

Seth: ... when Adam and Eve thought they were doing what was right in their own eyes-

David: Right

Seth: ... they took what looked good to them-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the world decreated.

David: Right

Seth: Like-

David: Thorns and thistles started-

Seth: Yes

David: ... coming up. Like, it, it affects biology. Sin-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... affects biology in the world, the way it functions. So, like, there, there's this decreation of the land that's going on, but it also ties into, and really importantly for this passage, it ties into the covenant, the law, the, the marriage between God and Israel that started in Exodus on Mount Sinai, where the Ten Commandments were given. And there, God told them that, like, "You need to obey my law, and if you don't, I will remove you from the land."

Seth: Yep.

David: And so all of that is coming together. Uh, both Exodus and Genesis are being turned backwards.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's exactly right. And in the next verse, chapter four says, uh... And now depending on your translation-

David: Right

Seth: ... this will be translated a couple different ways, and we'll try to talk about it both ways. It says, and so the ESV says, "Yet let no one contend and let none accuse, for with you is my contention, O priest."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then you have the NIV in front of you.

David: Yeah, it says, "But let no one bring a charge, let no one accuse another, for your people are like those who bring charges against a priest."

Seth: Right. So on the pe- on the side of this being the pri- Ah. So it's, it's kinda confusing.

David: It's confusing.

Seth: But here's the idea. The world is being uncreated.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And the people are coming to the priests and saying, "Why is our world falling apart? We're doing everything right."

David: Right.

Seth: And they say, "You're not d- well, you keep telling us to do stuff, but we're not gonna listen to you anymore."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "What you're telling us to do is wrong." And they refuse to listen to the people that are supposed to mediate God's covenant.

David: The priests.

Seth: Priests were supposed to tell the people how to live and stay in the land.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And they're saying, "Our world's falling apart. You're telling us to do wrong things. We're not gonna listen to you anymore."

David: Right. And, and you're, so you're saying the ESV translation is saying, like-

Seth: The opposite almost.

David: The opposite of that. Okay.

Seth: The, the NIV is saying that-

David: The NIV is saying, "They're like those who bring charges against the priest." They're coming and saying, like, "God's way of doing things that you're mediating aren't working-

Seth: Right

David: ... so we're gonna run after Baal and see-

Seth: Yes

David: ... if he can fix it."

Seth: And in the law, Deuteronomy 17 says, "If you contend with the priests-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... you should expect death."

David: Okay.

Seth: So, like, the, what they're experiencing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and what they're trying to contend with and, like, argue their way out of in court-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... isn't gonna work.

David: Right.

Seth: It's gonna end up earning them the same thing they're already receiving.

David: I see.

Seth: And they-

David: But, so it could also be a euphemistic way of saying, like, um, "They're like those who contend with priests" is like saying like, "They're like a man on death row" because-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a person, uh... They're like a man who sticks his head in the mouth of a lion.

Seth: Yes.

David: His jaws are going to snap.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: You know what I mean? Like, it-

Seth: Yes

David: ... could just be like, "You, you, you're about to get what's coming to you."

Seth: Right.

David: So what's the, what's the flip side of this then?

Seth: The other way to say it is, ah, for, for let no one to contend, let no one accuse, for with you is my contention, O priest.

David: Oh, okay. So God's like, like, uh, the, my, my problem with Israel is the priesthood itself.

Seth: Not the, not the people who are accusing the priests of doing wrong-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... but the priests who are teaching wrong.

David: Right.

Seth: So-

David: It's a top-down systemic issue.

Seth: Right. So there's no knowledge of God in the land.

David: Mm. And so, yeah.

Seth: The priests were supposed to communicate and teach the people the covenant.

David: Right.

Seth: So there's a problem. The priests are not doing what they're supposed to be doing.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They're not teaching the people the law, and so what's gonna happen? The people are going to be destroyed.

David: Right. Because they're disobeying the law-

Seth: Right

David: ... because they don't know the law, which is why it says, "My..." in verse 6 of chapter 4, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge."

Seth: That's right.

David: Right.

Seth: "And you've rejected knowledge, and I've rejected you from being a priest to me."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And now that can go both ways.

David: Ex- exactly.

Seth: So if there is a priest who's neglecting to do his duty and teach the people the law, God's saying, "You're no longer my priest. You've abdicated your responsibility to teach the law of the land, so you're no longer my priest. Get out of my presence."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or it goes back to the promise God also made on Mount Sinai that the whole nation would be priests and the whole nation would mediate God's blessing to the entire world.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And God's saying to them, "You guys will not be... mediate my blessing to the world. You will experience wasteland. You will experience desolation. You'll have nothing but the wilderness in which I first called you."

David: Right.

Seth: "That's all you'll have."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Either way, the point of these chapters is to show that the covenant-breaking, like, the s- the l- the st- they're breaking the laws of steadfast love that God set up on Sinai.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And we're just seeing how dark it is on both sides of the equation, in the leadership and among the people. And it says this, verse 7, "The more they increased, the more they sinned against me."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Do you know what that made me think of?

David: Uh, uh, no.

Seth: Egypt. They were great, and they multiplied-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... and they increased in number-

David: Right

Seth: ... daily, and it was a sign of God's blessing-

David: Right

Seth: ... because they increased under persecution.

David: Mm.

Seth: But now they're experiencing actually a p- a period of unprecedented growth in Israel.

David: Right.

Seth: This is Israel's golden age, remember?

David: Yeah.

Seth: But now the more they increase, the more they sin.

David: Mm. Yeah.

Seth: The more they're earning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... punishment.

David: One of the commentators I read, Stewart, he talked... It's, I see if I can get this right. It was a little confusing when I read it, [laughs] but let's see if I can get this right. So he talked about how there's this cycle of, like, selfish multiplication happening in the religious economy-

Seth: Okay

David: ... of Israel. So the cultic f- the fertility cult of Baal worship-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... right, that was being propagated by the priests of Israel was saying, "Come in. Sleep with prostitutes. Let's be fruitful. Let's bear more children," right? Because then the more children we build, uh, the more children we build, [laughs] the more children we-

Seth: I build a child [laughs]

David: I build a child. The more children we have, um, the more, um, then people that we'll have that can pay taxes to the king and that will pay, like, to come and have access to our prostitutes and will work our land.

Seth: Oh, okay.

David: Right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And so, like, they keep growing, but then what do you get? Like, uh, and so, like, so the king's end up protecting the priesthood because-

Seth: Yes

David: ... they are growing their kingdom and increasing their treasury and fattening the pockets of the priests. But then what happens? As more and more people are brought into this evil practice of cultic Baal worship, th-Their sin is literally exponentially increasing-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because every nine months, you have more people [laughs] you know, inculcated in this sin.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so i- it's also like, yes, it's like, it's definitely a theological way of saying things like, "Guys, your sin is just multiplying. It's getting worse and worse every second." But also it's like the more people you produce inside of this wicked system, the more people there are to sin.

Seth: Yeah, and the more wealth they had.

David: Yes, that's right.

Seth: The more sin there came. And again, what's one of the main messages of Je- Jesus about money being the root of all evil-

David: Right

Seth: ... and being a place in which-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... like it's difficult to get into the Kingdom of God?

David: Yep.

Seth: Like we're seeing that play out in Israel's history.

David: Yep.

Seth: Their golden age is also the age marked by most spiritual adultery.

David: Well, and that's, that's the exact problem God said would happen in Deuteronomy, in the law. He said that, "When you go into the land, be careful. Because once you have wealth and once everything is good for you, you will forget me-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and then you'll lust after the other gods, and then I'll kick you out of the land." Like in the law itself, it was predicted that wealth would precipitate the downfall of Israel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And now it's happening.

Seth: And now it's happening.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's just getting worse.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Verse 9, "And it shall be like people, like priests." As bad as the people are, the priests are just as bad.

David: Right.

Seth: Everybody in the system is totally corrupted.

David: Right, which you don't want. You would hope like, "Well, man, the people are bad, but the, the priesthood is still good." It's like-

Seth: I-

David: ... nope. [laughs]

Seth: I thought about it. I, I think a good analogy is actually slavery-

David: Mm

Seth: ... like American slavery, in the way that both the people of the time, the pastors in the pulpit, and the kings, the, the presidents of our nation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... all were complicit in one another in keeping slavery legal.

David: Right.

Seth: And you actually couldn't have one without the other.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: If the people started revolting against it, the pe- they would've stopped.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But they were all feeding off one another to have injustice. Where, where was all America's wealth coming from? Slavery.

David: That's right.

Seth: So like on the backs of slaves-

David: Mm

Seth: ... we gained wealth. And on the backs of idolatry-

David: Right

Seth: ... Israel got wealthier as well.

David: Yep.

Seth: And that practice is earning for it-

David: Right

Seth: ... the desolation that's coming.

David: Right. I, I think that is a good analogy, as hard as it is to think about that. It's like, but it's true, 'cause like I think for Israel, it, it, the more implicated they become in the system, the wealthier they get, the harder it is to walk away from. Because-

Seth: Yes

David: ... it's like the, the more money this puts in my pocket, the harder it is for me to walk away from. 'Cause how could I say no to all of this wealth?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which-

David: Which is why it's harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven [laughs] than for a, a, a camel's hair to fit through the eye of a needle.

Seth: Which is kinda what verse 10, the next verse, gets at.

David: Mm.

Seth: "They're gonna eat but not be satisfied. They're gonna play the whore but not multiply."

David: Right.

Seth: Why? Because they've forsaken the Lord. They're gonna have more and more and more.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: More sexual experiences, more food, and it's gonna diminishingly return to them.

David: Right.

Seth: They're not gonna get what they're hoping from it.

David: Yeah. And I think like there, that's existential and practical probably.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because part of the covenant was you will, your, your children will die in childbirth.

Seth: Yes.

David: And you, your crops will dry up, and there will be drought in the land. And so, like, yeah, I think it's an existential like, "Man, why isn't this satisfying me?"

Seth: But it's also, in Israel's case, literal.

David: Literal, yeah.

Seth: Like their birthrates are probably dropping during this time.

David: Yeah. Uh, something else I just wanna go up and, and point out in verse 7, uh, which is just interesting, a little statement, and I know there's a, a translation issue with it, um, as w- [laughs] as with a lot of Hosea.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Uh, but it says in, in the NIV it says, "The more priests there were," that we just talked about this, "the more they sinned against me. They exchange..." Oh, sorry. Uh, verse 8. Sorry, verse 8.

Seth: Yes.

David: "They feed on the sins of my people and relish their wickedness" is what the NIV says.

Seth: Mm.

David: And it's like this picture of people bringing... You know, 'cause in, in the, in Leviticus, the idea was that you would bring your sin offering-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and you would give your portion to the Lord a- as an offering-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and that would make you and God okay.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the priest, as the facilitator of that, would take a portion for him and his family, and that's how he would eat that day.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? And so, um, he benefited from the sacrifice.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? But here, it's become so corrupted that people are relishing in people's wickedness, calling them wicked, like trying to get them to-

Seth: Yes

David: ... repent more and more, but not because they need to repent.

Seth: 'Cause they want more m- food.

David: They want more food and more money. And so, uh, Stuart, the commentator I was reading, he said like this is the equivalent of Old Testament indulgences.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like 'cause if you'll remember, like-

Seth: Right

David: ... something that started the, the, the Protestant Reformation with Martin Luther was the Catholic Church was basically selling salvation for money.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And you could buy salvation for those in purgatory with money, and it's like that's what's happening here. So like they're like, "Man, I love it when people come to me-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and they're really messed up, and they're really wicked. I relish that." Why? "'Cause I can get more money out of it."

Seth: I, it also reminds me of the slavery analogy.

David: Mm.

Seth: Pre-Antebellum South, as a pastor, you wouldn't wanna speak up against slavery because what would happen? Your donors, the people giving their tithes to the church, would dry up.

David: Right.

Seth: And then the people didn't wanna give up their slavery because why? That's how they ate that day.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's like that complicit, messed up system where the people are sinning, and the priests are making money off of it, so the priests won't call out the sin of the people, and the people won't give up their sin.

David: Totally. I mean, you can bring it closer to home than that, right? You can bring it like really close, like, uh, like I think that happens today.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like we have churches today that don't wanna offend their people by calling sin sin because like, "Oh, we'll get smaller numbers, and then I'll have to fire our media pastor."

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? [laughs] Like that still happens today.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like we have people who are leading our churches who just won't-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... like call sin sin.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or like, or like d- they won't like remind people of the law-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of God or preach the Bible because they're-

Seth: Right

David: ... scared it's gonna dwindle their numbers.

Seth: The pastors won't call out sin because accommodating for sin is part of the way they stay in business.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And the people them- this goes back to like the dual meaning. The people themselves are feeding off of sin-

David: Right

Seth: ... because they believe that's what's gonna bring them satisfaction and joy.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so they go to churches that satis- don't confront them.

David: Yeah, but just make them feel better.

Seth: Make them feel better.

David: And then they go out, and they s- they, they feed on sin more that week.

Seth: Yes.

David: They come back, and they feel better, and it's a cycle, right?

Seth: And the pastors feed on their sin that week-

David: That's right

Seth: ... in the form of their donations.

David: Exactly.

Seth: Yes.

David: "Okay, I paid, I paid my tithe to the church. I heard the good sermon on Sunday morning. Now I can go sin some more, come back, and then it's all fixed, and I'm still okay." Uh, it-Yeah, that's, that's a-

Seth: That's dark.

David: That's dark.

Seth: But, and that's... And so again, like what's the por- what's happening in chapters four through six, or four through 5:7, is what's happening is we're being painted a picture of the deep darkness of Israel's covenant breaking.

David: Right.

Seth: And it's happening on both ends of the spectrum.

David: Yep. And Go- And yeah, and it's, and again, to frame it, God has brought Israel into court-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and He's laying out the evidence against them. That's why it's so dark right now, is it's like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... this is that part where it's like, "Exhibit A," and it's like that gruesome photo of the crime scene. You're like-

Seth: Ugh

David: ... "Ah, that's gross." And it just goes on and on. Exhibit B, exhibit C-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... exhibit D. And it's like, "Can I stop looking at these crime photos for a little bit?" And it's like, "Not yet."

Seth: Not yet. There's more.

David: "I, I, I... There's more evidence against you." And so we're in a court case right now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and there's just a bunch of evidence piling up, and that's why it's so dark.

Seth: Yeah, and it's... I think we said already, but it's not till chapter eight, verse 11, when we get another message of hope.

David: Right.

Seth: It's all evidence against Israel, why they deserve what, what they're getting.

David: Yeah, totally.

Seth: Uh, verse 12.

David: Okay.

Seth: Verse 12. We promise we will get to Jesus soon.

David: Yes.

Seth: Uh, but, uh-

David: I, I was like... I was about to say that. I was like, "I need Jesus [laughs] right now."

Seth: But the, the sin of the people is, is worse. So not only i- uh, is there this kind of like idolatrous codependency between-

David: The priesthood and the people

Seth: ... the priesthood and the people, but the people are just kind of idolaters in general.

David: Yes.

Seth: And kind of like dimwitted idolaters.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, they like kind of m- "My people inquire of a piece of wood, and their walking staff gives them oracles."

David: [laughs]

Seth: "Why? Because a spirit of whoredom has led them astray, and they have left their God to follow a whore." Um-

David: Yes.

Seth: "They sacrifice on top of mountains and burn offerings on the hills under oaks, and poplars, and terebinth trees," because why? "The shade under those trees is good, so therefore your daughters play the whore-

David: Right

Seth: ... and your brides commit adultery."

David: There's so many interesting things in this. Like the lang- the, the... You have to remember, when you're reading the prophets, a lot of times you're reading very poetic language. And so, like, if you just take a minute to pick it apart, you realize what they're saying. So like, for instance, it's like, okay, this idea of they consult a wooden idol. You know?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Or they consult a piece of wood.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know? Is, is like, Isaiah kinda says that kinda stuff.

Seth: He does, yeah.

David: You know, it's, it's very similar. Like, "You guys know you're worshiping a piece of wood, right?"

Seth: "And you're gonna burn it over there, and now it's a god to you?"

David: And now, yeah. Ri-

Seth: "I don't get that." Yeah.

David: Right, yeah, exactly. But then he takes it a step further, where it's like, "Okay, so if that piece of wood, you're gonna consult as your god, how about your walking stick? Why don't you ask it to tell you the future?"

Seth: [laughs] Right. Yeah.

David: It's just like, that's just funny.

Seth: It is funny.

David: Like, it's funny. And he's, he's being s- satirical here.

Seth: Yeah, there's a lot of irony in Hosea, and s- satire. You're right.

David: Yeah. And then the, the sacrificing. Yeah, they're sacrificing on top of mountains, which were traditionally high places where the gods would meet humans.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But then he starts listing types of trees. You know, he's like, "Okay, they, they do it under the oaks, and the poplars, and the terebinth." It's like, it's... People have, like, tried to figure out, like, oh, is there specific meaning? And it's like, no. If, if they're doing it everywhere-

Seth: Yes

David: ... it's just that, that kind of tree, this kind of tree. They're doing it everywhere, and then you kinda brought it up in the way-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you read that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, why, why are you going over there to sacrifice to that false god? Don't you know the one true God is in Israel? What are you doing? It's like, "But the shade's really nice." And it's like, that's your excuse? [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: Like, it's the worst excuse for idolatry I've ever heard. But it's like, "Oh, I don't know. That church is really close by." You know? Like-

Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah

David: ... "Uh, the church is within driving distance. It's just-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's really convenient for us there."

Seth: Which is the reason I like my church, but-

David: Yeah, but, you know. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: But you know what I mean.

Seth: Yes, yes, yes.

David: Like, we, we... It's, it's giving reasons of convenience-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... really minor convenience, for huge apostasy.

Seth: Yeah. I, I wrote in my notes, it said, like, the, Israel's worshiping, worshiping anything that's useful to them.

David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seth: And utility is the only-

David: Yes

Seth: ... way in which... Like, that's how they determine what's spiritual. Is it useful for me?

David: Right. I mean, that's the whole reason Baal got into their worship in the first place, because Baal worship was useful. It, they thought it increased their crop yields.

Seth: Yep.

David: Right? And it helped diplomacy with the Canaanites. So, like, their spirituality has become mercenary.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Which is, like, very... I feel like we're doing all the, like, the Old Testament to modern connections-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... and then you get Jesus in the middle-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... very soon. But another one is, like, we do this. It's just like w- religion is helpful insofar as it's practical.

Seth: Yeah. I think, there's a guy named Christian Smith. He did this huge study about, like, the average belief of the so-called, like, average Christian-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in, uh, the States, and he called it moralistic therapeutic deism.

David: Yes.

Seth: I don't know if, like... It's basically, what do, what does Christianity offer? What is Christianity about? And most people say, "Well, do good works-

David: Moralistic

Seth: ... make me feel better-

David: Therapeutic

Seth: ... uh, and God's kinda far away."

David: And give me, give me a sense of a higher power.

Seth: And give me a sense of a higher power.

David: Deism.

Seth: Deism. And that's all Christianity was to them.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's something that told them the right thing to do, and-

David: Made them feel better

Seth: ... made them, made them feel better.

David: Connected to something bigger than themselves.

Seth: And but they could h- also ignore it and do what they want.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is kind of like this, the state of Israel.

David: Right. Which, yeah,'cause deism is the idea that, yeah, God exists, but he doesn't connect with us at all. He's-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... standoffish.

Seth: Super, he's, he's the, the divine-

David: Yeah. He wound up the clock and let it go.

Seth: Yeah, that's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So anyway.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Great. Uh, verse 14 is just really interesting to note.

David: Yeah. This one's, this one is, is more irony, I think.

Seth: "I will not punish your daughters when they play the whore, nor your brides when they commit adultery."

David: It's like, oh, is there, like, a little hope here? Like, oh, he's not gonna punish?

Seth: "Because the men themselves go aside with prostitutes and sacrifice with cult prostitutes, and people without understanding shall come to ruin." I think what's happening here-

David: Yeah. I'm curious

Seth: ... is kinda the same complicit system that we saw between the priests and the people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The men of Israel are trafficking their daughters and the other people's women into the cult pros- prostitute rings-

David: Right

Seth: ... so they can have sex with them. So there's a sense in which these women are prisoners.

David: Yes.

Seth: And God's saying, "I, I know these women are prisoners. I'm not gonna punish them, but I am gonna punish the leaders responsible." So I think that could be part of what's going on.

David: Mm.

Seth: Do you have another layer to add to that?

David: Yeah. Uh, I thought, I thought s- some, some people brought up a good point, where it's like, um, it, it, it's, it's hard to understand, like, the complete destruction of Israel and her people, and, you know, especially other prophets will talk about, like, you-Women and children and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... everybody being inculcated in, in this destruction. Um, it's like how can God destroy everyone but not the women, you know? [laughs]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It was like, it's just a point. I think wh- when I read it, like I, I think what's happening is like, um, a comparison of graders, where it's like you think it's the women who are to blame. They're the prostitutes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it's like, no, you guys are the ones going and sleeping with them.

Seth: Mm.

David: Like- [laughs]

Seth: Right

David: ... you wanna, you wanna pass blame, but there's a bigger sin going on here. And so it's like, no, I'm not, it's not, I'm not just gonna focus on the, the harlots. You, you, you wanna think it's their problem.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You're the ones going in and sleeping with them, making them harlots.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so I don't know if it's trying to like get one gender off and-

Seth: Right

David: ... accuse another. I think it's more of like, yeah, that's wicked, but don't blame them-

Seth: Mm

David: ... like you wanna try to blame the priests. Blame yourselves.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You're the ones complicit in this system too.

Seth: That kind of fits too with the way that the rest of the passages-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... have just been working back and forth with each other like, yeah, like, okay, yeah, I get it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay, in verse 15, uh, we're almost to the end of Israel's whoring-

David: Woo-hoo

Seth: ... [laughs] for today. "Though they play the whore, O Israel, let not Judah become guilty. Enter not g- into Gilgal, nor go up to Beth Aven, and swear not, 'As the Lord lives.'"

David: Right. So you remember this is, there's this divided kingdom, and he's like, "Okay, northern kingdom of Israel has committed adultery. Judah, southern kingdom, where Jerusalem is, where the temple is, like, don't become guilty of the same thing. Do not go up into places like Gilgal or Beth Aven because, like, this is where all of this idol worship started."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, "Just don't go near it." You know, it, it, it almost sounds like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the writer of Proverbs. You know, he's like, just like, "Don't follow in the way of lady folly," [laughs] you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Bethiel was a place where Jeroboam set up the two golden calves, and then Beth Aven is a play on Bethiel's name. Beth Aven means the house of evil.

David: Oh, does ESV say B- Bethiel?

Seth: It says Beth Aven.

David: Oh. Oh, okay. What's G- okay. I, Gilgal.

Seth: Gilgal's another just important place-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... in Israel's history.

David: Okay. Got it.

Seth: So these are just significant places in Israel's history.

David: Right.

Seth: Gilgal was the center command, the central command for, like, the conquest, the-

David: Yes

Seth: ... promised land.

David: Right, yes.

Seth: Um, there was a temple or a, a sanctuary there-

David: Yep, mm-hmm

Seth: ... at one time.

David: Right.

Seth: Uh-

David: And it's like, and he's saying, like, the, one of the, one of the core, um, laws in the covenant was that there should be no place of sacrifice other than the temple.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, you, like, you, you don't go anywhere else to, to, to, to sacrifice.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You don't go, like, you just don't do that. It's punishable by death.

Seth: Right.

David: And he's like, "So don't go anywhere else and be like, as surely as the Lord lives," which is like a covenantal ceremony.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, keep it... You, Judah, stay there with the temple.

Seth: That place where their offerings are is the house of evil.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Beth Aven, the house of evil.

David: House of evil.

Seth: Don't go there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, but like a stubborn heifer, Israel is stubborn-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which goes back to the wilderness. They're like a cow. It's, they're a stiff-necked cows.

David: Yeah, they-

Seth: Not-

David: ... became like the idols they built.

Seth: And then the, another piece of satire, "Can the Lord now feed them like a lamb in broad pasture?" Like-

David: Right

Seth: ... the idea is like, well, normally a shepherd is a kind person-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who cares for his sheep. These people are so disobedient, so rebellious, God's just gonna let them wander in the wilderness.

David: Right. Another way I heard it explained was, like, from like a, those familiar with, like, livestock, where it's like a heifer, a stubborn heifer would need to be fenced in.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You know?

Seth: Right.

David: And he's like, "I wish I could just take you out in the open field and we could graze, and it'd be great."

Seth: Oh.

David: "But instead I have to fence you in 'cause you're a dumb cow." [laughs] You know? Uh, that's funny.

Seth: I thi- that is funny 'cause I, I, I think, uh, I got the picture of, like, [laughs] that moment, like, with Harry and the Hendersons-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when, like, they set, like, set, they set those-

David: Get out of here. Get out of here

Seth: ... don't you g- g- can't you see-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... I don't want you anymore?

David: I think that might be a part of it too.

Seth: [laughs]

David: It's like God's taking his lambs to the edge of the wilderness and saying, "I'm done with you."

Seth: Mm.

David: And he's walking away, and he ha- he has to leave-

Seth: Mm

David: ... because of their rebellion. It goes back to, like... Anyway, the point is it's bad.

Seth: Right.

David: The point is it's bad.

Seth: Yep.

David: Either way, I-

Seth: Ephraim, Israel, is completely compromised. They have joined themselves to idols, cha- you know, verse 17 says.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, I mean, that is, like, sexual language. They have-

David: Yep

Seth: ... they have intercoursed with idols, and now, you know, as the, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, you know-

David: Right, I know.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: It's the same thing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, don't you know joining with a prostitute is joining Christ to a prostitute?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, what-

Seth: You become one with her flesh

David: ... you become one with... Right.

Seth: So, like, they are idols now, which goes back to calling them stubborn cows. Like-

David: Mm

Seth: ... you, they've become like the golden calves they built. And, and so God is speaking to Judah here, saying, like, "So don't come near them."

David: Yep.

Seth: Yeah. Uh, even when, verse 18, "Even when their drinks are gone, they continue their prostitution. Their rulers dearly love shameful ways."

David: It-

Seth: It's like, okay, when we can't... When, when-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... all the wine's gone, when, when the rum's gone-

David: When the rum's gone

Seth: ... and we can't get drunk anymore, we just, let's just go have sex with more prostitutes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like when I can't be debaucherous, I'll be adulterous.

David: And-

Seth: It's like murder touches murder.

David: Yes.

Seth: You know?

David: There's, like, no gap between the sin Israel's committing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And verse 19 kind of concludes it, "A wind has wrapped them in its wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices." A wind has wrapped them in his wings. It essentially means there's a force of destruction coming, a, a windstorm.

Seth: Mm.

David: A sandstorm is coming, and it's unstoppable. Who can stop a sandstorm? Who can just stop the winds wrapped in wings? No one.

Seth: Mm.

David: You will be destroyed because of your covenant unfaithfulness.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's what's happening in chapter four. [laughs]

Seth: Oh, okay. So we need to get to Jesus because I'm very sad.

David: Yes. Yeah, where is the gospel in a passage like this?

Seth: Yeah.

David: One of the things we talk about behind the scenes, and now in front of the scenes-

Seth: Ooh

David: ... uh, is just finding the native fall-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and the native gospel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: How is the text inviting us to think about ourselves, and how do we, in this passage in particular, and how does the gospel address that particular need?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So if you're gonna talk about, like, the native fall here, we've talked about a lot of things.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The complicity, complicity between priests and people-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the just idolatry in general, whoring, sexual infidelity. Like-Yeah. Uh, I mean, so one of the, one of the things that I just really... like, pops out to me is this idea of a lack of knowledge. "My people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also rejected you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as my priests." And, um, I'm like, I think that we... A, a natural fall there is, like, w- we reject knowledge. We, we reject knowledge of God, what He wants. It goes... It's the s- it's the same sin as Adam and Eve, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, like, God said, "Here's what you need to know. Dwell with me in my garden, be fruitful and multiply, tend it and keep it. Don't touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." We want knowledge for ourselves. We wanna define good and evil on our own terms instead of just coming to God's word, [laughs] submitting to it, and, like, knowing what God wants us to know.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And instead, we reject that, and we seek after things that we think will bring us pleasure, things that we think will fill us-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that we think will satisfy us, both, um, like, physical, but also, like, spiritual.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, we think there are certain religious practices that will get us what we want, and we're mercenary with them the way that these people were. Anyway, so I'm just like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... I think, like, when we ignore the will of God revealed in the Bible, we do it to our own destruction.

Seth: I mean, Paul says it almost exactly that way. He says, like, we suppress the truth in our unrighteousness. We-

David: Right

Seth: ... don't have knowledge accurate... We suppress the true knowledge about God.

David: Where is that?

Seth: Uh, Romans 1.

David: Oh, I was hoping so-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because that... he also pulls on Hosea 4 here.

Seth: Oh, he does?

David: Yes. He talks about, uh, tur- tur- turning your glory into shame.

Seth: Oh, yeah. That's the-

David: Which is Hosea 4. [laughs]

Seth: That's Hosea 4.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And so, like, for them, it was like you had the glorious God, Yahweh, as your God, and you exchanged Him for a shameful idol.

Seth: Yeah. You, you exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and birds and animals-

David: He-

Seth: ... and reptiles.

David: And those get repeated here in Hosea 4:2.

Seth: They do.

David: Although... So he's pulling on Hosea 4 i- in Romans 1.

Seth: Mm-hmm. So yeah, Paul, Paul has discovered the Native Fall forum. [laughs]

David: Yay. [laughs] Thanks, Paul.

Seth: Thanks, Paul. You knew what you were doing and-

David: We should've just asked you first. And so I, I think that's it. It's like we seek to trade what God has said is the good life-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, for what we want to make up, you know, a bigger salary, a better car. You know, that's, like, the consumeristic version.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But there's also, like, New Age versions of that, self-discovery, self-actualization.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Anything. You know, the best job, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... something that's really satisfying to yourself. Like, man, if I could just have that type of career or this type of wife or these kinds of kids.

Seth: And you're like, "Oh, but I'm not swearing, lying, murdering, stealing, committing adultery to get there."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Jesus comes back with, like, "Well, have you lusted after a woman with your heart?"

David: That's right.

Seth: "Have you lusted after position of authority in your heart that you don't yet have?"

David: Yep.

Seth: "Have you hated somebody who's above you or beneath you? Are you in your heart wishing you had something that somebody else had? That's coveting, and I'm calling that stealing."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, there's, like, no getting around that we've broken the commands of love.

David: Right.

Seth: The, the, the steadfast love. There's no faithfulness or steadfast love.

David: Right, which then Paul goes on in chapter 2 of Romans, uh, although he's quoting Psalms, he pulls on this same idea that there is no acknowledgement of God in the land.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? He says, "There's no one righteous, no, not one" in Romans 2. He pulls on this same idea that Hosea's doubling down on.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's like, it's interesting to think about Jesus at his Sermon on the Mount pulling on this list-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... telling us, like, "You guys are going after all your own idols, and I know you're devout Jews. You're out here in the wilderness listening to me because you've been waiting on the Messiah. But let me tell you something. I know you think you've kept the commands your whole life, but, like, have you loved something more than me? Like, have you lusted after a woman just in your heart just a little bit? Have you wished she was your wife instead of who is your actual wife? If you have-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you're a whore."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it's just crazy thinking, like, in that context of Jesus pulling on Hosea-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and spiritual adultery, like, without saying so much, although he... Jesus... Spoiler alert.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Jesus does call people whores in the New Testament. He calls them a... It's translated adulterers in most Bibles.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so Jesus pulls on this prophetic tradition. So it's, like, almost this implicit condemnation from the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus coming to us and just calling us harlots-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... saying that we're spiritual adulterers. And then, like... But what, what's weird is-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that He then comes to us and He's like, "And I'm your husband."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right?

Seth: That's the, that's the-

David: That's the, that's the twist of the knife that just doesn't make sense.

Seth: Well, that's the, that's the Hosea coming to Gomer moment, right?

David: Exactly.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. And so we have to remember in all of this, I mean, maybe this is a, an interesting way to get to the gospel here without an explicit promise of restoration-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that let's remember who is saying all of this.

Seth: Hosea.

David: Right. W- to whom?

Seth: Gomer.

David: His wife-

Seth: Hmm. Right

David: ... that he has exorbitantly loved and sacrificed for-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and, like, will buy and has just bought again.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, I mean-

Seth: It's like, yeah, he's speaking to the... his... Yeah. I... He's saying, "This will come to you, destitution, childlessness-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... famine, plague. God's presence will leave you, but I won't."

David: I'm here.

Seth: I'm here.

David: I'm your husband. Yeah. And now Jesus is the, the faithful husband who's with us through our harlotry, who is God incarnate-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... who says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Like, he's the husband who never leaves-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which is, like, crazy good. He's the husband who knows we're a whore but refuses to ever leave.

Seth: Yeah. That's, uh, it's really just beautiful imagery, and I want to, like, think about it more.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But I don't know what to say anymore about it.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: You know, it's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's such a, um...

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm also thinking about just the theme of uncreation that we talked about.

David: Yeah. Okay.

Seth: Like, just the, thePart of the curse that, uh, Hosea speaks over his wife is that you will be uncreated. The place where we made our marriage vows-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the land I promised you-

David: Right

Seth: ... is just gonna become a mess. Um, and I'm thinking again, we talked about it in the introduction podcast about the way that we are made new creations in Christ Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Paul talks about giving us, giving us over to our desires.

David: Right.

Seth: Giving us over to the shameful lusts of our flesh, like he uses the same language, in the way that destroys us and decreates our life, and then God promises in His Son to recreate what we have decreated.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or like what He told us He would... I don't know, I'm-

David: Yeah, no, no, no, you know, I think you're on a good track. Like, we have utterly destroyed our lives.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, with our sin, the choices we've made, the relationships we've pursued. We've gotten ourselves into bad positions, and yet Jesus comes to us, and He loves us like a husband, but His love is a recreation project, and He makes us new people with new identities. Uh, gives us that new name that we talked about-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, in the el- in another podcast. And, like, a- and, and what He does is he actually ends up reconstituting us into the role that the people of Israel were supposed to have, but failed to meet, which was this kingdom of priests. They were supposed to be God's representatives on the Earth. That's what a priest was. It was mediating between God and man. And the whole nation of Israel was supposed to be an entire civilization where every person's a priest-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... because everybody is representing God to the world. They're all his image in the world.

Seth: Yeah, all increasing, bearing fruit-

David: Yes

Seth: ... multiplying, remaking the garden and the world.

David: Yep. And now that's what Jesus does in us.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: First, 1 Peter actually calls us this kingdom of priests again. Uh, like, uh, like Protestants believe in the priesthood of all believers.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, that we are God's representatives here on Earth. Why? Because the Holy Spirit lives inside of us and is making us into the image of Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So, like, that's what's crazy is not only that we're loved by God, who is our husband, but, uh, while we're a whore, you know? [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: But that God makes a whore into His image. Like, He takes-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a whore and makes him look like God.

Seth: He takes a whore and makes her a queen.

David: Yeah. Oh, it's the rev- it's like the reverse of what we talked about with, uh, Jezebel.

Seth: Yes, like she, she... Yeah, it's exactly the reverse-

David: Right

Seth: ... of what happened there.

David: She was a whore who was pretending to be a queen.

Seth: Now a whore has become a queen.

David: Right.

Seth: And she is ruling and reigning the way that God always intended her to.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: Well, that's beautiful

Seth: ... that is super beautiful.

David: Last, uh, well, maybe not last, other thing I definitely wanna... Is there something else on that thread?

Seth: No, I wanna talk about, like, how Jesus is a better priest.

David: That's what I wanna do, too.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Perfect, yep.

Seth: We talked about, a lot about the deep darkness of the complicity between priests and people and how these priests who just have neglected their duty to the people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And Jesus isn't like that.

David: No, and I think it's really interesting, too, that we talked about how, um, the priests relish in wickedness. You know, they're like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... "Hey, it's okay. You know, don't worry about it. Don't worry about your sin. Just pay me a little bit of money, and you'll be good to go. Give me a goat, and you're free to go," you know?

Seth: Right.

David: Thank you. That's great. Jesus, on the other hand, is able to call you a whore. [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: And, like, He does not relish your sin. He weeps over it, mourns over it, pronounces the pr- correct woes over it.

Seth: He calls it for what it is.

David: He calls it for what it is.

Seth: And then doesn't demand a sacrifice from you.

David: Yeah, instead He goes and offers a sacri- sacrifice for you, which is, like, one of the things, like, the law provided for.

Seth: Right.

David: A husband to offer sacrifices for his wife at great expense to himself. Whenever she went and messed up outside of his home-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the husband could buy her back.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like Jesus knows what we've did wrong, doesn't sweep it under the rug, calls it what it is, and then pays for it.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, which is why He's the best husband, 'cause it's like you don't want a husband who, like, thinks you're better than you are, you know? Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... you don't wanna be like-

Seth: Someone who-

David: "He doesn't love, he, he doesn't love me because he doesn't really know me. If he knew that I'd been s- sleeping around-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... he wouldn't have bought me those flowers today." It's like, no, Jesus is a husband who says, "You slept with Ben again today, didn't you?"

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: You know? And he's like, "I hate that, and I've paid for it, and here's your flowers, too." [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it doesn't... It almost sounds, it sounds scandalous because it is.

Seth: Right, which it goes back to, like, why, why would Hosea-

David: Hosea [laughs]

Seth: ... ever do this? Like, like it can't-

David: At the command of God.

Seth: Right, it doesn't make sense-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because that's legitimately the way the Lord sees us. He's a pr- he's our husband priest-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... who makes, who's also God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like, these three things are c- coming together-

David: Yes

Seth: ... to describe the fact that He's God, describe the fact that we've broken the illegal commands, describe the fact that w- He sees us as spiritual whores, but is bringing us back to Himself. Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it's powerful.

David: Jesus mediates between us and God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in a way, uh, no priest ever could.

Seth: Yeah. I think the other thing I've been thinking about in all this is, like, what benefit is there in thinking of myself as a whore?

David: Mm.

Seth: You know what I'm... Like-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... because o- one, I think on one side, like, we have, like, okay, I don't wanna slut shame.

David: Right.

Seth: Like that, like there's that side of me, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... that's not what we're talking about.

David: Right.

Seth: But I do want to, like, embody for the m- a moment the sexual nature of my own sin.

David: Right.

Seth: Like-

David: Uh, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... even, even that's, even the ones that aren't sexual.

David: Totally.

Seth: Like, so how do I, like... I, like, I feel like there's something beneficial there that I haven't just explored enough.

David: Yes. I think, yeah, I think we, I think Hosea, in the canon i- i- in a really unique way, the canon of scripture, he helps us scandalize our sin in a really-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... visceral way. You know, he helps us go, like, whenever you just give your allegiance, your love, or your trust to something other than God, just a little bit, it's like sleeping around on your husband or your wife.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, and just I don't view sin that way. I view it as like, uh... I view it more as, like, um, at, at the bare minimum, uh, like, "Hey, babe, sorry I didn't let you pick the show tonight."

Seth: Right

David: ... you know, like a, a sl-

Seth: W-

David: ... a slight relational infraction

Seth: We, it g- it goes back to what we said in the Infraction podcast. We are so used to thinking about sin as an infraction against God's law-

David: Right

Seth: ... but not affront to His love.

David: Right

Seth: Like, an affront to God's passionate love for us.

David: Right

Seth: Like, that's what's H- Hosea's wanting us to get at. When you break, when you sin, it's not that you did something wrong and you gotta be punished for it.

David: Right

Seth: It's that, although that's part of the whole-

David: Yes

Seth: ... the whole thing.

David: Yeah. God is also a judge, but that's-

Seth: But Hosea wants us to see, like, God's a passionate lover-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... who jealously guards the affection of his wife and wants it all for himself in a-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... good way.

David: In a good way.

Seth: In a good way. Um-

David: Yeah. It's a good, I think it's a good mental exercise, a good spiritual exercise for people to, like, think about your sin as an infraction upon God's love, like, as breaking God's love, as an affront to His love.

Seth: There, it makes me... And I think Jesus, because He lives inside of us-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in a way that He, He didn't live inside corporate Israel-

David: Yes

Seth: ... it makes it even more scandalous. I think that's what Paul is-

David: Is getting at with the uniting the members-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of Christ to a prostitute

Seth: ... it's like, "Do you not know that you are members-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... of Christ himself?"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "So shall I then take the members of Christ..." I think members can mean, like, just an individual member, but it could also mean something like ex- as explicit-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as, like-

David: A sexual organ

Seth: ... a sexual organ, and unite them with a prostitute. Shall I take the members of Christ-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and unite them with a prostitute? Man, that's even stronger than the language Hosea is using.

David: Yes.

Seth: Hosea is not going so far as saying, like, "When you sleep with a prostitute, do you know you're making God sleep with that prostitute-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... too?"

David: Yeah. The, the, yeah. We've talked about this before, that like, uh, like, as God's grace increases, so do, do our sins against it.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? Because it's like, well, now it's not, you're not just in a covenant relationship with God, right?

Seth: Right.

David: God is in you.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, like, now it's just the infraction, like, the, uh, the way you breach that love and trust. It would be like, in a way, this is a terrible metaphor, actually, theologically-

Seth: But-

David: But in a way-

Seth: Go on. [laughs]

David: In a way, it's like it would be like cheating on your fiance versus cheating on your wife.

Seth: Mm.

David: You're one with your wife-

Seth: Right

David: ... but you've made promises to your fiance.

Seth: Yeah.

David: They're both terrible-

Seth: Right

David: ... but one is worse. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. That, no, that's actually kinda helpful.

David: Okay.

Seth: It's got, I mean, like, I get what you're saying, like, well, God-

David: God was married to Israel.

Seth: Right, but-

David: That's why it breaks down theologically

Seth: ... but it is a good, like, there is a ratcheting up of the grace.

David: Yes.

Seth: God actually lives in us-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to help us not be like this-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, which is something that Israel's heart never did. And this will be the last thing we say right here, but chapter 5:4, their deeds, the people's deeds, the priests' deeds do not permit them to return to their God.

David: Mm.

Seth: They can't repent. They can't say sorry. They can't come back into His presence.

David: Right.

Seth: Why? Because the spirit of whoredom is within them-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and they know not the Lord.

David: They can't return, not because God won't accept them-

Seth: But-

David: ... which is I think how I first read that, honestly.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But it's they can't return because their hearts won't let them.

Seth: Right.

David: Mm.

Seth: And why can't, won't their hearts let them? Because they don't have a priest who's willing to die for them and then give him His spirit.

David: Right.

Seth: This is what Jesus does, right?

David: Yeah. Yes.

Seth: The priest is supposed to mediate God's presence. These priests have failed to do that.

David: Mm.

Seth: Miraculously so. But when Jesus comes, He, as our final priest, He mediates His presence not just here on the earth for a particular sin, He does it inside of us. He replaces the spirit of whoredom-

David: Mm

Seth: ... with a spirit of sons and daughters.

David: And wives.

Seth: And wives and husbands.

David: Yeah. I'm just like, I, okay, so we've talked a lot, and it could be 'cause it's such a gigantic biblical theme, and you and I have meditated a lot on the idea of the hard heart, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You have a hard and obstinate heart that God promises to turn into a soft flesh heart that can actually beat and feel and love Him again.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? I've meditated on that before.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I, it's one of my favorite biblical themes, you know? And Je- uh, Jesus loved it, too. And I'm just like, I've never thought about my propensity, you know-

Seth: Mm

David: ... in my fallen nature towards sin, my inclination to sin, as a spirit of whoredom, that I have an adulterous spirit, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And Jesus even said, "You, you have an adulterous generation here."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's like, I've got, our hearts bend towards adultery, bend towards cheating on God, uh, like, uh, prone to wander, Lord, I feel it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Prone to leave the God I love. Here's my heart, Lord, take and seal it. Seal it for the courts above. Like, we are prone to be whores, and I've just never thought about that switch when God gives me a new heart-

Seth: Mm. Right

David: ... being the heart of a wife.

Seth: Right. What, what does he say in chapter 2? "I'll take the name My Baal from your lips."

David: Yes.

Seth: And g-

David: And, and now you'll call me my husband.

Seth: The husband. Why? Because our hearts are no longer whores, they're wives.

David: Oh.

Seth: Like, we, we've been given the heart, the spirit of a wife.

David: Just like, I've just not... Uh, what a cool gift of God to be like, "I love you so much that I'm gonna give you a heart that can love me."

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, "I'm your husband, and I'm gonna teach you to be my wife," which is, like, what Hosea is doing.

Seth: Yes.

David: He's like, "You've been a prostitute for a long time. I'm gonna buy you back again." This happened in verse, in chapter 3.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's like, "And now, let's just be together for a little while. We're, this, we're not gonna make it about sex. We're gonna be abstinent for a little while."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, "We're gonna teach you how-

Seth: Right

David: ... to be a wife."

Seth: Like, I think that really humanizes the soft heart thing.

David: Yes, it does.

Seth: Because I th- like, like, it takes a long time to unlearn behaviors.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It takes a long time to unlearn a life of adultery-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... a life of spiritually going half in, half out.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: A little bit of trust in God, a little bit of trust in something else. It's, like, that takes a long time to unlearn that, and really the problem is that your heart's just wrong.

David: Right.

Seth: You need a r- a new heart, and God spends the time necessary to do it for us.

David: Yeah. There's like a, there's, like, a metaphor in my head-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, like, like a romantic comedy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in my head where it's like you've got, and I think this has probably been played out in dozens of movies, but, you know, if you've got this l- you have this lead female character. She's a, a woman of the city. You know, every, every weekend she's in the club.

Seth: Yeah.

David: She takes home whoever she wants.

Seth: It's called Pretty Woman. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: It's, it's, like, literally the movie-

David: You know what I mean, though? I, I don't, I think it's a trope.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But, like, you know, she takes home who- whoever she wants, and she's living the life. I'll never, I'll never settle down, you know? I'm like Clooney used to be, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, I just, I wanna be free and live and everything, and she's got this, she's got the heart-Of a whore, you know? [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: Like, or like the, a free spirit, if you wanted to put it into modern terms.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know? And then she meets this guy, and he's so good and so awesome, and just, like, she melts her heart, and she becomes a one-man woman.

Seth: Yes.

David: And she, she's, she's... Her heart of promiscuity and free spirit-ness changes into the heart of a wife, and she only has eyes for him. They get married, and they live happy ever after. She never wants to go out into the clubs again-

Seth: Right

David: ... because she's been so overwhelmed-

Seth: By-

David: ... by this new lover.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, that's who Jesus is.

Seth: Right.

David: He's the new lover who interrupts our scandalous romantic comedy-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and he just changes us to only love him.

Seth: So does this mean on our-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... Hosea introduction video, it's gonna, like, have a laugh track?

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Yes. Yeah, als- yeah, and I think we'll have to, like, you know, up our, up our, um, our b- budget to, like, be able to hire, like, Richard Greer or-

Seth: Perfect

David: ... Meg Ryan or, you know?

Seth: These sound like great casting decisions. [laughs]

David: [laughs] But anyway, I love that idea of, like, Jesus coming to me as a husband so perfect that it melts my heart-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and makes me have eyes only for him.

Seth: Yeah, that's, that's the gospel in the book, uh, the dark book of Hosea. [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs] We got, we got there.

Seth: He's, he's still there. Um-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah. Well, thanks for listening, guys.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And next week we're gonna be in chapters, uh, six through, I think, eight.

David: Okay.

Seth: And we kinda move from Israel's, like, spiritual adultery to, like, the political chaos-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that Israel's getting itself into, uh, because of their lack of faith in the Lord.

David: They're completely intertwined.

Seth: But really we focus in on, like, the national situation-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... of Israel and why it's just so terrible.

David: So if you wanna get political, come on back next week.

Seth: Come on back next week. [laughs]

David: Thank you guys so much for listening. We really appreciate you, and we'll see you next week. [outro music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a non-profit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]

Related Resources

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God's Case Against Israel and the Husband Who Never Leaves: Hosea 4:1–5:7

Show Notes

God Brings a Charge: Covenant-Breaking on a National Scale

The Failure of the Priesthood: A System Built on Complicity

Israel's Idolatry: Worshiping Whatever Is Useful

A Warning to Judah and the Coming Storm

The Gospel in the Darkness: Jesus, the Faithful Husband and Better Priest

Related Resources

Introduction to Hosea

View our devotional on Hosea 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Hosea Introduction podcast

Listen to the Hosea 1-3: A Whore Bride podcast

Listen to the Hosea 4:1-5:7: Oracles of Doom podcast

Listen to the Hosea 5:8-11:11: Politics and Religion podcast

Listen to the Hosea 11:12-14:9: Relentless Judgement and Free Love podcast