David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our walk through the Book of John. This is, what, our third conversation now? Yeah.
Christine: That's right. Yeah.
David: And we've talked about, like, a high-level introduction of the book, looking at who is John, how did he write his gospel, why did he write it, because he actually tells us why he wrote it. And then we looked at the prologue, the first 18 verses of this famous, gorgeous, Bible-sweeping genealogy of Jesus from before all things were created. He is the Word, the Logos. He dwelt among us, took on flesh. We talked about so many beautiful things in the last episode. So if you missed that one, oh, boy, I would definitely recommend going back to that one at least. Uh, I really enjoyed that. Today, we get to talk about the signs in John. And when we were talking about how John is laid out, we kind of sidestepped one of the typical ways that people explain the layout of the Book of John, which the first, what is it, 12 chapters, in a sense, uh, kinda 2 to 12, right-
Christine: Ish
David: ... are the book of signs. Um, and you-
Christine: The final one being in chapter 11.
David: Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, 11, and so with the death of Lazarus and the resurrection of Lazarus.
Christine: Correct.
David: And so you have seven signs, and we did talk a lot about why John loves seven so much, and maybe how that is a helpful way to actually spend time in John and follow his train of logic is following his themes and his patterns. Nevertheless, there is a clear structure in John with the signs, that you have seven signs. The narrative slows down after that as Jesus spends the last, like, day [laughs] with his disciples, speaking with them, washing their feet, instituting the Lord's Supper, teaching them, praying for them, telling them to abide in him, and then going to the cross. And then after the cross, we get our eighth sign, which is his resurrection.
Christine: New creation.
David: Yes.
Christine: Another theme in John.
David: That's right. And so these seven signs are huge to, to John's gospel. Um, and to just fly through them really quick, like, what are we talking about when we're talking about signs? What are the seven signs?
Christine: Yes, these are the miracles, which we'll get into miracles and signs later, but miraculous acts of Jesus that revealed who he was to those around him. The first one is in chapter 2, where Jesus changes water into wine at Cana, and there's a lot going on there. The second one is in chapter 4, which also occurs in Cana, where Jesus heals the official's son. And then we have chapter 5, where Jesus heals the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda. And then in chapter 6, we have two, actually. We have Jesus feeding the 5,000, and then immediately after that, he walks on water, both very cool signs-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... that we'll hopefully get into more. And then chapter 9 talks about Jesus healing the man who was born blind, which that is another profound si- all of these are profound.
David: [laughs]
Christine: I don't know why I keep repeating that. But the, that leads us to the seventh and final sign before the ultimate one.
David: Mm.
Christine: And the seventh one is in chapter 11, where Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead.
David: Yeah. And so those are the seven signs that comprise and make up the so-called, later called [laughs] book of signs within John's gospel. And as we mentioned, seven is the number of creation, the seven days of creation, which John starts his gospel, "In the beginning," and how all things were made through Jesus. He talks about light. Creation's huge for John. And so looking at seven signs that ultimately point forward to the eighth day of new creation, the start of a new eternal week, and the resurrection of Jesus, is a really helpful way to frame John and understand what his whole gospel is trying to do theologically and functionally for his readers. And so, but as we were talking about this episode-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... and thinking through how we wanted to go about this, we really were like, "Oh, it'd be fun to go through the signs and kind of lightly touch on each of them," 'cause they're, like you said, they're all profound. [laughs] But as we were looking at this, we asked the question, "What is a sign?"
Christine: Yeah, what are signs, David?
David: What are signs? And I think this is a helpful thing to bring everyone into the process of when we come upon a passage or a collection of passages like this, what are we doing with our Bibles that we f- have learned to find helpful? [laughs] And so we go, "Okay, we're gonna talk about signs. Well, what are signs?" Well, how do we answer that question? And how we answer that question is, I think, really important because it'd be very easy to use logic immediately. Well, let me think about what signs are in my context.
Christine: Hmm.
David: And that's, that's how you're gonna get eisegesis. You're gonna read what you think signs are into the text, and you might get lucky and get it right, and there might be a very natural reading to, you know, 2,000 years later, and it still means the same thing. Like, whenever Jesus walks somewhere, I wonder what that means. It, it means he walks somewhere. Y- like, the, the, the meaning of the towns he walked in between might be significant, and, and you might need to go look something up for that. But there are things you can just read. I'm not saying the whole Bible's veiled in mystery and you can't understand it. But what we try to do when we come up to questions like that of what are signs, we go, "Well, where has the Bible talked about this before?"
Christine: Yes, to give a biblical definition in place of our modern cultural definition, which might be helpful, but again, is not gonna give us a good definition for what John might've been thinking of for sign.
David: Yes.
Christine: Even if we use the same word, it might not have the same meaning-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... touched behind it. So-
David: And I think what's really helpful with that, too, is we're not only looking for a definition.
Christine: That's right.
David: We are, we're-
Christine: We're looking for how it shows up and what the context surrounding it-
David: Yes
Christine: ... is.
David: Because words have no meaning by themselves. They are only understood inside of story, inside of context. And so what is the universe and, and imaginative world that John is fitting Jesus' ministry into when he starts calling these seven unique miracles signs? He's pulling on something, and I wanna know what it is, and I don't just wanna have a cute definition at the end of it that I can slap onto John's meaning of signs. I want to sit with the story of signs through the Bible and see how Jesus is fulfilling those things.
Christine: Yes, because even the same word can have a different definition based on its context. So it's good to see, is the context similar each time this word pops up? And we kind of, when we dug into, okay, how is “signs” translated and used in the Bible, there are some really cool consistencies that we just did not see coming.
David: Yeah. So [laughs] there, there is a- just to let everybody in on this, this was actually pretty interesting. Usually whenever I do a lexical word scrub, where basically what that means is I, I go, okay, what is the word that John uses for sign? Okay, it's s- semeion or semeion. And I'm like, okay, where does that occur in the Greek Old Testament called the Septuagint? And what Hebrew words is it translating? Usually what happens when you do that is you get a shotgun of, a shotgun spray of meaning. And in, just like the word run in English can have, I think I've, I've heard someone say it has over 500 meanings-
Christine: Wow
David: ... uh, depending on context. And so usually that's what happens, and which is why lexical studies alone cannot give words meaning, uh, because you have to understand, well, how did they appear in their context? What's their story? So usually the conversation and the, the quest to find what does this word mean, what, what, what stories was it attached to, is usually a lot longer process. But as we just did the lexical scrub and went through, I, uh, don't know if I've ever had the experience of a word being used so consistently throughout the Old Testament. I was extremely surprised. Um, not that it's-
Christine: It was fun to see you be surprised.
David: [laughs] Yeah, it was a fun little moment. And I'm not saying that every single use of the word semeion in the Septuagint is exactly the same thing, consistent. Not saying that. But there are some really clear threads that John is pulling on, and that there is consistent use between how John's using it and how the Old Testament used it, and we're gonna, we're gonna walk through it a little bit here. So how does the Old Testament use signs is the question we're gonna look at now. So the very first time we encounter the word sign in the Bible is actually in Genesis 1:14.
Christine: So Genesis 1:14 says, "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years.'"
David: Yeah. And so that's a really stra- I don't know. I found, I found that pretty strange on its own. There, there are signs? So you have these, these lights in the dome of the sky. This is the sun and the moon?
Christine: Yeah. L- it goes on to say the greater light and the lesser light, which is the sun and the moon, and then also the stars.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Which is kind of self-evident if you go outside during the day or during the night.
David: Right.
Christine: There, it's light out because there is a sign in the sky, namely the sun. And on a night sky, you see the moon and the stars giving light. Lights in the sky are signs in the sky.
David: Yeah, and that is what's weird about these heavenly bodies, the sun and the moon being called signs, because the way we understand it today in our modern conception is it's not day because there's a sign in the sky that tells me it is currently day in some other sense. The light and day are one, and it is, it is daytime because the sun is out. But God actually calls light day and darkness night before the sun and the moon are created.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so-
Christine: That's an interesting and fun thing-
David: [laughs]
Christine: ... to notice when you realize, oh, there is a bodiless light, as it were, beforehand, and a darkness that's just called night without any sign to tell me so.
David: Right. And so there are these, to use a big word, ontological realities, invisible realities perhaps even, 'cause they're a bodiless light, is a light that can't be experienced, like maybe. There's a light and a darkness that is not only the sum total of the Helios, the sun, and its refraction off the moon.
Christine: Yes. There is l-
David: Those, those are not the real- tho- those, the sun is not light or day, nor is the moon darkness or night.
Christine: Yes. Uh, maybe another way to say what you're saying is that the sun does not give light in and of itself.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's a sign of day.
David: Yes.
Christine: And-
David: It's a sign that there is light other than the sun itself.
Christine: Yes.
David: And something brighter, better, more luminous, more life-giving, more Edenic. There's something-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... beyond it.
Christine: There was... Yeah. There was light before there was sun.
David: Yeah, which is crazy. [laughs] Immediately Genesis defies our scientific exploration of it, and it's poetry, and it's theology. Anyway. And then the moon is not a source of darkness. It reflects light, so calling it darkness is weird, you know? And it's not darkness, but it is a sign of a reality called night.
Christine: Yes.
David: Which, which God calls darkness.
Christine: Yes.
David: He calls darkness night before the moon is there to tell us that it is night as a sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: [laughs]
Christine: And interestingly, the moon is a source of light that governs the dark.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So even the darkness, the night, is governed by light.
David: Yeah. So a weird one to start out with, or maybe not weird, a heavy and confusing and giant one to start out with, but this is the first one. You've got these concepts of light and dark, day and night, that exist apart from their physical, visible counterparts. And the sun is a sign revealing the fact that there is something called light, and there is a time called day, and the sun is the visible sign of that reality, but it is not the r- that reality in full.
Christine: Yes. Another maybe more colloquial way of saying that that I think would be e- easy to stomach or to swallow is it's day out. How do you know it's day out? Well, because the sun is out.
David: The sun's up. Yeah.
Christine: And it's night out. How do you know it's night? Because the moon is out.
David: Yes.
Christine: And the stars are out. That's how I know it's night. I can see the stars. I know it's day because I can see the sun.
David: That's right. I know it's day because I can read the sign.
Christine: Yeah
David: The big, bright sign in the sky. [laughs]
Christine: Yes. If someone were to say, "In broad daylight, it's night," you'd be like-
David: "Read the sign, bro"
Christine: ... obviously not. Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Clearly you are blind. [laughs]
David: Oh, that's interesting.
Christine: But yeah.
David: Okay. The second place we find it is in Genesis 9 after the flood.
Christine: That's right, another sign in the sky.
David: Oh, another sign in the sky. Oh, that's interesting. So Genesis 9:12, God said, "This," being the rainbow, "is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you for all future generations. I have set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh, and the water shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh." So that's the covenant. God makes a covenant with the world, and through Noah makes this covenant that he's not going to flood the earth again to destroy all flesh. But the covenant's invisible. [laughs] I can't behold the covenant. It's not, I, He didn't get a contract, a piece of paper.
Christine: Yes, and this is the first covenant in the Bible, too.
David: The first spoken covenant in the Bible.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Christine: The first time covenant appears.
David: People, peop- I, I only say that because some people think about the, the creation covenant and the Edenic covenant, be fruitful and multiply and all that kind of stuff.
Christine: Oh, I see.
David: But this is the first one that's called a covenant.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yes.
Christine: Yes, which it, the word first appears in chapter 6 verse 18, but then we get it really heavily concentrated-
David: Mm
Christine: ... in chapter 9-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... when he talks about his covenant with the earth that is seen through the rainbow.
David: Right, and so God makes a covenant, but how do I know that he's going to uphold that covenant?
Christine: There's a sign.
David: There's a sign, and this time again, in the sky. [laughs]
Christine: Is that why we sign our name?
David: Is that why we sign our name?
Christine: A signature.
David: Oh, that's interesting. Etymologically, [laughs] that's-
Christine: Like, how do I know you agree to that? Here's my signature.
David: Here's my signature. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah. That's really interesting.
Christine: English fun.
David: Yeah. So God makes a covenant, gives a sign as proof that something that you actually can't discernibly see and know exists, you can trust it because there's a s- a sign of it. This gets ramped up again in another, and I think it's actually the next time it's used, which is in circumcision, which is the sign of another covenant.
Christine: Yeah, so circumcision comes up in Genesis 17 where God promises Abraham that he'll be a father of many nations. And he goes on to say in verse 9 of 17, "Then God said to Abraham, 'As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.'"
David: Yes. So once again, we have a promise from God that is invisible, something that can't be seen, held, looked upon, [laughs] touched. And so how do we know it's gonna happen? Well, God gave a sign, a physical representation of the invisible reality behind it.
Christine: Yes, which is another new creation theme, which I'm noticing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: We had, we had the creation theme with the lights in the sky.
David: Yes.
Christine: Then with the sign of the bow, that is new creation.
David: That's right.
Christine: And here, circumcision is also new creation-
David: That's right
Christine: ... because it is pointing to generations given to Abraham, who is the father of a multitude of nations, and this is done on the eighth day-
David: Right
Christine: ... which we didn't read, but it's in the next verse. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: So there's a new creation theme here of a visible sign pointing to a new creation reality.
David: Man, that's fascinating. So not only is it a sign of the covenant, this promise that God has made with Abraham specifically, but also a sign of the new creation agenda God has in the world.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's so cool.
Christine: This is fun for Bible nerds. I don't know about everyone else. [laughs]
David: No, I, I think-
Christine: This is fun
David: ... I, I think this is fun. I think what's helpful here is it's fleshing this idea out and seeing how it's developing through Scripture, which is how John would have learned about these ideas and words.
Christine: Yeah. It's the first sign not in the sky, too, which is also a development.
David: Yeah, it is-
Christine: This is one that we carry.
David: Yeah, Abraham's covenant had to do with stars, that his children would be like the stars in the sky, not only numerous, but also becoming like them in glory, in dominion, in ruling, and that was their destiny. And so it is interesting that all of these signs have been in the sky, but this next sign is one coming to Earth in the family that will bridge heaven and Earth.
Christine: A sign of your destination, that's the sky-
David: That's right
Christine: ... as it were.
David: Yeah.
Christine: That's-
David: That's really cool. The next time we come upon signs is the ultimate sign in the Old Testament. Throughout the Psalms and other places, this will be the grouping of signs, and it's, it also might be the heaviest density that this word is used in the entire Bible. And it is the time that when the psalmists or other prophets ask for a sign from God, it's usually the event to which they are referring. And it is the signs that God performed through Moses in the land of Egypt to free his enslaved people from Pharaoh and the Egyptians and their powers.
Christine: So another way to say that is the paradigmatic sign in the Old Testament for New Testament authors and people, and even Old Testament authors and people, you pointed to the prophets, is the Exodus signs is the highest concentration of sign as it shows up in the Bible?
David: Yeah, at least how, from what I can see. It's massive. It's like you, you go through, it's like, oh, there's a few in Genesis, and then there's justTons-
Christine: Okay
David: ... in the front of Exodus, and then kind of sprinkled throughout the rest of the canon. So it really does seem [laughs] like it. And, and the first time we run into it, God is talking to Moses a- at the burning bush in Exodus 3:12, and he says, "Because I am with you, and this will be a sign to you that I myself have sent you." So he's like, "I'm gonna be with you, and this is gonna be a sign that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is with you, Moses, that you are gonna bring your people out of Egypt and come back to this mountain and worship me." This is so cool. The sign of Exodus, and there's going to be other ones we're gonna look at, but the ultimate sign is the Exodus itself.
Christine: That's really cool.
David: How do I know that Yahweh's with his people? Because I'm going to bring you out of slavery to myself.
Christine: Yes, the only way to explain that or the reality that the sign is pointing to is that God is bringing his people out-
David: Yes
Christine: ... is the Exodus itself.
David: But then there's going to be other signs, and it's weird to call them smaller, 'cause they're not small, subordinate signs, supportive signs.
Christine: Sup- yeah, I was thinking s-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... like subordinate clauses-
David: That-
Christine: ... or supportive
David: That's right, because these signs are pointing to the other sign, that these signs are pointing to the fact that God will take his people out, and these are some of the miraculous signs that-
Christine: These are the-
David: ... we're familiar with [laughs]
Christine: These are the lights that lead to the exit [laughs] or the white-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... lights that lead to the-
David: This way, this way
Christine: ... Red Exodus.
David: And so y- you can think about the sign in Exodus 4:17 when he takes the staff in his hand, and by it he will do many signs. Him turning the staff into a serpent is a sign. Many of the plagues are called signs. When God talks about the hard heart of Pharaoh in Exodus 7:3, he says, "I myself will harden the heart of Pharaoh, and I will make my signs and my wonders numerous in the land." So there's gonna be all these signs. Well, we know what those are. These are the plagues. These are the, the miracles that Moses performed, and, but, but what's interesting is this is the first sign that is a miracle in a sense.
Christine: Hmm. Okay.
David: That these are the first signs that are miracles because God creating lights in the sky, it's hard to call that a miracle when it's creation itself because a lot of people want to define miracle as the divine intervention that disrupts the natural order.
Christine: It's more like a revelation of what God is always doing, isn't it?
David: I like that definition [laughs] better, but I'm just thinking about the way people typically think about miracles.
Christine: I see. Yeah, 'cause they call it supernatural.
David: Yeah, it's supernatural.
Christine: Which is-
David: It supersedes the natural
Christine: ... it transcends the natural order, not necessarily intercepts it or contradicts it.
David: That's right.
Christine: But we do see, we call a resurrection a miracle, and that seems to be a reversal of the natural order.
David: Mm-hmm, but it's actually-
Christine: Unless we think ... Yeah, it's actually just restoring the natural order.
David: That's right. That is the natural order, not death, but life.
Christine: Death is the unnatural thing-
David: Yes
Christine: ... in the world.
David: And so miracles, you know, in a sense are God bringing his order back to the Earth in ways that subvert the broken ways that we have-
Christine: That's so cool
David: ... like messed up the world. [laughs]
Christine: That would make sense why the Exodus is a sign like that or a miracle like that-
David: Hmm
Christine: ... because it is doing justice. There are people who are enslaved to tyrannical powers.
David: And that's not the way it's meant to be.
Christine: And yeah, and that's not justice.
David: Yeah.
Christine: That's not God's kingdom.
David: Right.
Christine: And so God says, "I'm gonna-
David: I'm gonna bring freedom. [laughs]
Christine: "I'm gonna change that. This is-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... the sign, reversal-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... of what is unnatural."
David: Right, and so you have creation is the first sign with the lights, but not a miracle in the way we think about it. The rainbow, couldn't quite call that a miracle in the same way we would ... We're gonna talk about g- you know, Moses turning a staff into a snake. That's different. Circumcision, definitely not a miracle. That's a surgery. [laughs] Like, that's a medical procedure, not a miracle. And so what's helpful here is to distinguish between the miraculous or the wondrous and signs. Those are different things.
Christine: Helpful.
David: That signs can be miracles, but they don't have to be, and miracles can be signs, but not every miracle is a sign.
Christine: That's so helpful. You were trying to help me understand this earlier, and I was getting lost [laughs] in all the definitions of what is not what. That was very clear.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So thank you.
David: And so I, I, I hope it's clear 'cause I think it's, it, it's important 'cause I think it's easy to, when we get to John finally and we go, "Oh, this is one of his signs," well, it's so easy to read that was one of his miracles. That's not what John is saying.
Christine: Even though it is miraculous.
David: It is miraculous.
Christine: But it's-
David: But not all miracles are signs, and not all signs are miracles because for John to say that Jesus did something miraculous, these are the first of his miracles, would be a true statement in a sense. But to say that he's doing a sign means that he's doing what the lights and the rainbow and the covenant, uh, uh, of circumcision did, that Jesus is bringing something invisible, unseen, ontologically hidden and behind and bigger and grander that is not readily present with the senses. He's bringing that reality into some physical way that people can see.
Christine: Helpful.
David: It's a sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: And he happens to use the miraculous to make the sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: But we can't equivocate a sign with a miracle.
Christine: Yeah.
David: So I just think that's fascinating. So before we get there, though, these are the first miracles that are signs or signs that are miracles in the story of the Bible.
Christine: Yes, and there are a lot more.
David: There's a lot more. That's right. Yes. These aren't the only ones. And so what the signs are doing, the miraculous signs are doing in Exodus is multiple things. So why are the plagues signs? Why is the staff turning to a serpent a sign? It's doing multiple things. One of the things that the signs that are miraculous are doing is showing and supporting the first sign that God said he would do for the people of Israel, that a sign that God is with his people is that I'm gonna bring you out of Egypt. That's the ultimate sign, and the other signs are showing that it will happen, and Pharaoh needs to get out of the way and let it happen. [laughs]
Christine: Yes.
David: But he's not. He's not listening to the signs. He's not seeing the signs.
Christine: So is Pharaoh's hardening of heart a sign, or is it showing that it's possible to be hardened to the signs and not receive them?
David: Yeah, that's such a good question. So-The hardening of hearts, Pharaoh's heart, and the signs are put together a couple of times in the plague stories. But the hardening of Pharaoh's heart I don't think is ever called the sign.
Christine: Okay. How can-
David: Instead, he says, "I will make my signs and wonders numerous to Pharaoh, who will harden his heart." And so I think it's the second way you asked the question, which is that signs can be ignored.
Christine: Hm.
David: And, and, and can be denied.
Christine: Which is what God's people do later on throughout, 'cause the prophets perform signs all the time.
David: Yes, they do.
Christine: And they are rejected, or people harden their hearts, and the prophets say, "You need a new heart."
David: That's right. And it's fascinating to even link that idea to John because John is always showing how Jesus is revealing himself, showing himself to the people, and they don't believe him. He came to his own-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... and his own did not receive him, which is in the prologue. And Jesus in h- in his humility and his love, he just constantly talks to the people. He's like, "If you don't believe in my own witness or my own testimony, at least believe the signs." But they won't.
Christine: Yeah. It's like, if you don't believe in the invisible realities I'm telling you, believe the visible realities-
David: Yes
Christine: ... that y- your eyes can't deny.
David: Yeah.
Christine: At least believe your eyes, what they see.
David: Right. And so Jesus is pulling on this idea of, of, and John is pulling on this idea that the signs are there, but that doesn't mean people will respond the way they should.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Which is heartbreaking. But this is the ultimate picture of what a sign in the story of the Bible is doing. It is an invisible reality. Is God with his people? How do you know? How do I know that this people group belongs to Yahweh? How, how can I possibly know that? Uh, uh, do I just guess? [laughs] You know?
Christine: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "No, here's how you're gonna know. I'm gonna bring you out of Egypt and bring you to the mountain." And then there he makes a covenant with them, right?
Christine: That's really cool.
David: And covenants and signs go together a lot. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. Well, I'm also thinking of signs surrounding Jesus' birth, too-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... that are linked to the Old Testament. So even if we connect Old Testament, New Testament, we have... 'Cause you asked how do we know that God is with his people. Well, Isaiah says to Ahaz in Isaiah 7, "The Lord himself will give you a sign. The woman will be with child, and you will call him" what? "Emmanuel."
David: God with us.
Christine: Which is God with us.
David: Well, how do I know God is with us?
Christine: And by the-
David: 'Cause of the child.
Christine: Well, here, here's a child, and by the time he's old enough to do such and such, God will have destroyed your enemies. And so a child being born is a sign that God will destroy the enemies that are invading Israel.
David: And not only that, but how do I know that the destruction of my enemies was God at all? Oh, because of the sign.
Christine: Because of the sign.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And-
David: Otherwise, you'd be like, "Oh, geopolitical politics. It happened." You know, you're just like, "All right."
Christine: No, you get, you got a timeline in the form of a gestation period-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and a child's development.
David: Right.
Christine: And also that sign is fulfilled in Jesus, and Matthew says as much. He quotes, "And the virgin will be with child, and they will call him Emmanuel," which means God with us. The fact that the child is born to Mary is a sign that, oh, God is coming. God is with us, and our enemies are gonna be destroyed.
David: That's right.
Christine: And I'm thinking now of Luke, where the angels tell the shepherds, "This will be a sign to you. You will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger."
David: Yeah.
Christine: So even the, the baby, Jesus himself wrapped in swaddling cloths is a sign that a savior has been born to you-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... Christ the Lord.
David: How do I know a savior's been born to me?
Christine: There's a sign.
David: Because I told you this is what you'd find.
Christine: Yes.
David: A baby laying in a food trough wrapped up in clo- in cloths. That's weird.
Christine: Yes.
David: And if you see that weird thing, you'll know that what I said is true.
Christine: Yes. Says a h- heavenly-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... sign of light.
David: Right, yeah, a heavenly sign. [laughs] A star.
Christine: Yes, before all the stars begin to sing glory to God in the highest, there's a sign telling shepherds about another sign.
David: A sign tells about another sign. That's awesome.
Christine: It's signs upon signs.
David: I love that. So an- another thing that's happening, b- before we get all the way into the New Testament, another thing that's happening in the Exodus story that's really important for this is, um, there, uh, God's agenda is not only to free his people, but to free them by showing that he is not only Yahweh with his people, but Yahweh above every other god. And the signs that he gives in the plagues are also pictures that he is the Most High God, and that the gods of Egypt and the powers that animate them are subordinate to him, and that he invades them, humiliates them, takes over their territory, and manipulates them to his own purposes. How do I know Yahweh is not only the god of that people that he's rescued? How do I know that Yahweh is the god above all gods? Well, because in the plagues, he's proven it in signs.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so I think that's gonna be important m- uh, in, as we get to John, and we see, well, what claims is Jesus making with these miracles where he's overcoming oppressive powers? He's making a divinity claim. And so we'll get there, but I think that's also-
Christine: Yes
David: ... important to bring up.
Christine: Yeah. And the sign, uh, the signs in Exodus kind of stack the former signs along with them because you do get circumcision in the Exodus story because I think it's commanded there when God gives directions on who can have the Passover.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But it's also a whole firstborn thing-
David: Oh, definitely
Christine: ... that's going on there, and who is Israel, and that who is a son of Abraham is another way to put that. And the signs in heaven go out. God is the, you know, the sign that God is in control of all is that he can turn the lights out [laughs] if he wants to.
David: Right. Oh, man.
Christine: And so-
David: He makes the sign of the day turn into the sign of the night, in a sense.
Christine: Yes.
David: He, he, yeah.
Christine: Or he can, yeah, he can bid the lights-
David: Whoa
Christine: ... to go out, and they will.
David: That's crazy.
Christine: And he can it- bring in a new baptism, a new creation, kind of like the sign with the covenant of Noah. He can bring in a new creation for his people, and they undergo a form of baptism where they-
David: Oh, the crossing of the Red Sea
Christine: ... go through the, the crossing of the Red Sea. So all of these signs prior to the Exodus signs kind of s-Stack on-
David: Mm
Christine: ... each other-
David: Right
Christine: ... in the desert
David: Because he doesn't flood the whole- he doesn't flood all flesh.
Christine: No.
David: He rescues his people through water, but then closes the water over his enemies.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Over Pharaoh and the powers.
Christine: Yeah, he cleanses-
David: Wow
Christine: ... his people.
David: He does cleanse his people through water. Man, it is all the signs stacking up on each other. That is really, really cool. So I think we've made the point that, that signs in the Old Testament are visible pictures of invisible realities, and they are ways to know that invisible things that we could not possibly know are real or are true or are reliable, and they could just be conjecture or-
Christine: Yeah. Or it helps us s- I think maybe another way to put it that might sound like contradicting it, but it's another way of affirming what we know is true.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Like, we know it's day because the sun is out, is like, there are other ways of knowing it's day, but-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... the ultimate sign that it's day is the sunshine.
David: Yeah, but it's also how, how do I know... Uh, uh, the, the claim that Yahweh is the most high God. I need to see some signs.
Christine: Yes. He demolished all the others.
David: That's right.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah. How do I know Israel is His people? Well, the plagues were falling on everybody except their land, and anybody who wanted to join are the ones that got out, who came under the sign. So anyway, I just think that's fascinating and really helpful as we look at John. And so just, just so people can follow along and, and go down other rabbit holes if they want to, other things that are signs in the Bible that we're not going to unpack are the Sabbath is a sign-
Christine: It is a sign
David: ... which is really cool.
Christine: It's so cool. Yeah.
David: The Sabbath is a sign that you belong to God's people, that you trust Him, that you're participating in new creation.
Christine: A seven-day rhythm.
David: A seven-day rhythm. That's right. His wilderness provision, all the ways He provided for His people throughout their wilderness wanderings, this is Numbers 14:11, are all signs that He was with them and sustained them and carried them. In Numbers 16:38 is a really cool one. The censers that, uh, were brought in front of the tent of meeting from different leaders within Israel all vying to see who God would choose to be the real leader because they were saying, "Not Aaron."
Christine: Yeah. They were questioning the authority God put in place, and they're like, "What is the sign that Aaron's more special than the rest of us?"
David: That's right. And it's like, well, let's see whose censer I light. [laughs] And after God destroys the rival leaders there, they take the, the censers, these m- pieces of metal, and hammer them into metalwork to cover the Ark of the Covenant with them as a sign. A sign for what? Of you should always remember that God chooses his high priest and representative and leader, and when you come to the Ark and you see it, you need to know that you should respect that idea. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. Don't challenge God's chosen priest.
David: Mm-hmm. The entire written law that Israel was told to have on their doorposts and on their foreheads and around their dinner tables, the word spoken to children about Yahweh's goings-on in the world and the Torah itself is called a sign.
Christine: Yeah. And we kind of talked about that as, oh yeah, obviously that's the case because a word that I speak is invisible. It's audible, but it's invisible. But once I write it down, it becomes visible.
David: Yeah. Words are signs because they can be written down.
Christine: Yes.
David: And they become a visible picture of, of an idea-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... of, of a piece of communication which is invisible.
Christine: Yes.
David: It's a thought that I have.
Christine: Yes.
David: And how do I get that to you? Through the sign of a word.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's actually a really helpful boots-on-the-ground picture of what a sign is, is if I wrote down the word race car on a piece of paper, right? I could hold it privately to myself, and I go, "Christine, what am I thinking?" You'd have no idea. And I could go, "Well, I've written it on this piece of paper. You took a guess. Lemon." And I go, "No, it was a race car." "Prove it." And I turn it around. I have a sign that it was race car. This is what I was thinking.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And so words on a page become a visible representation of an invisible idea-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... or thought or imagination.
Christine: Yeah, or even just a sign that indicates how far a city is. How do I know this city is called Oklahoma City?
David: Right.
Christine: Because there's a sign.
David: Right. [laughs]
Christine: 'Cause otherwise it just looks like every other city with buildings. It's just a habitation. How do I know this is Oklahoma City? How do I know I'm headed there?
David: Right.
Christine: Because I saw signs that are saying this many more miles and you'll reach it.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So I don't know.
David: That's cool.
Christine: We could go down that road more and more, but-
David: Yeah. There's a lot more. The stones that Joshua puts in the river. You already mentioned the, the woman giving birth in Isaiah 7. Children are signs, Isaiah 8. The prophets do signs to reveal all different kinds of things. It, it goes on and on, but I was blown away by the biblical story of signs. And so when John picks that up and says that Jesus is doing signs-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... we can't diminish that to he's doing miracles. That's not what John is saying.
Christine: Yes. John's choice to s- to call these signs is doing a lot of theology and requires an Old Testament knowledge-
David: That's right
Christine: ... and background of what these signs are.
David: And so that is what signs are, [laughs] hopefully. Now let's look at how John shows Jesus performing signs.
Christine: So the first one, as we mentioned earlier, is in John 2, where Jesus turns water into wine at Cana.
David: Yeah. And we're actually flagged that this is one of these significant moments in the biblical story because he says, "This was his first sign."
Christine: Yeah.
David: He calls it out. We're not just going through and numerically going, "Oh, there's a miracle. There's a miracle. Seven, and they're signs."
Christine: Yeah.
David: John specifically calls it out-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... on the, in the very first time it occurs.
Christine: Yes, and the second time as well. And after that, he expects you to just start counting.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: When I tell a long story about a miracle, pay attention. This is the next sign.
Christine: Yes, and in verse 11, we not only see that-This is his first miraculous sign, but this is how he revealed his glory and his disciples put their faith in him. So again, there's a revelation of the glory of God, which who reveals the glory of God? It's the Son of God. It's Jesus. It's the Word made flesh, which we talked about in the prologue. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
David: Yeah. I think something's clicking for me right now that a really interesting thing to do, and we'll probably do it, is going through these signs and asking this question. Okay, if that is a sign, what's the reality it's pointing to? If this is the visible representation, what's the invisible thing that it's representing? And I think that's really interesting to ask, what was the, what's the sign that Cana is pointing to? But as I'm thinking about that, hearing what you just said about the first time John says this is one of the signs, it's, and he revealed his glory through it, is that kind of like in Exodus where you had a ultimate sign that is supported by other signs. The ultimate sign was, "I'm gonna show you that you're my people by bringing you out of, uh, out of Egypt." Well, how do we know you're gonna do that? How do we know you're the Most High God? How do we know Moses is your servant? How do... A lot of other questions. Well, through other signs.
Christine: Yes.
David: And they're all supporting a major claim. And so what I'm thinking is John has a major claim in, in his gospel that Jesus is God in the flesh, the Son of God, that the Word of God who existed before all time in the beginning, through whom all things were made, has brought humanity into himself, is dwelling in the flesh.
Christine: Yes.
David: And that is a claim. [laughs]
Christine: And there are people who harden themselves to the signs-
David: That's right
Christine: ... and reject God in the flesh. And so the signs, especially as if we are reading them in the context of Exodus, where is God with his people or not, what's it gonna take for me to believe that this human being who looks like a human being-
David: You're right
Christine: ... through and through is doing things that only God can.
David: Yes.
Christine: How do I know that this human being who might even be shorter than me, it doesn't, you know, it, that just trying to put more-
David: First we gotta try and-
Christine: ... flesh on Jesus [laughs]
David: ... prove a point.
Christine: But prove a point. How do I know that this is Yahweh-
David: Right
Christine: ... who performed the signs and wonders I read about in Exodus?
David: Yeah.
Christine: Is this human the God who put the stars in the sky?
David: Right. And so he's going to perform signs to prove that he is the one who created the first sign. [laughs]
Christine: Yes. And I think what you're saying, like, if these are signs that are pointing to an ultimate sign, that would probably be the resurrection sign that is the eighth one and the new creation one.
David: That's right. How do I know-
Christine: How do we know, how do we know that we have life in Jesus? Well, because Jesus defeated death. If we are in Jesus, we will have life that transcends and conquers death.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And so, yeah.
David: And I, I also just am thinking about the signs John is telling us are revealing glory.
Christine: Yes.
David: I think that's really important for John.
Christine: Yes.
David: And that the glory of Jesus is his divine nature.
Christine: It's the glory he had with the Father before the world began.
David: Right. John 17, he's gonna talk about that. And so whenever he is revealing his glory, which he's going to do in a huge way on the Mount of Transfiguration, and he's going to unveil his glory fully, or maybe, I don't know if fully is the right word or not, but he's going to unveil his glory.
Christine: Yeah. The light before there were signs in the sky is what John and his buddies behold, and they are struck to their knees. And John is probably rendered silent, and Peter's mouth just starts speaking 'cause that's Peter.
David: Sounds like me.
Christine: But-
David: Yeah, so-
Christine: [laughs]
David: So yeah. The, the, but his signs reveal his glory-
Christine: Yes
David: ... is the point that I think John's trying to set up here in the first one to make it kind of paradigmatic as, well, why are they signs and what are those signs pointing to? It's that God's glory, the fullness of his deity, who he is in all his radiance that people h- have never seen, is something John's gonna say. No one's seen the Father, but if you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father. Well, how do I know if I've seen this person, this man called Jesus, that I've seen Yahweh, the invisible Father? Well, because through his signs, he's revealing his glory.
Christine: Yes, which is just crazy, 'cause again, this... So going, going back to the first sign then, this sign that reveals his glory, what does Jesus do? He turns water into wine at a wedding.
David: Mm.
Christine: Which seems like a very kind gesture for a wedding guest to save the face of the-
David: The groom
Christine: ... the groom. But w- how is this a sign from God, or how is this a sign that Jesus is God then?
David: Yeah. That, that's a fascinating question to ask because it can't just be like, well, he's a miracle worker, so it must be that he's a prophet. Why does this mean that he's revealing his glory and that he is God?
Christine: Well, if anything, this is a sign that reminds me of Moses, a great prophet, who had the main signs attached to him in the Old Testament.
David: Mm.
Christine: 'Cause Moses also transfigured water. He turned it into blood, and that brought about-
David: Right
Christine: ... revelation. And here, Jesus turns water into wine, which gladdens the wedding guests and creates new life in a different way.
David: Mm.
Christine: So I like that connection.
David: That's a cool connection.
Christine: He's greater than Moses in that regard.
David: Yeah. I mean, it's showing so many things. We can't get into everything, but there is this idea that God had promised through his prophets to come back and remarry his people, [laughs] to clean them and buy them back out of slavery and make them his own again. Another exodus was going to happen. Well, what would be the sign of it? There would be a lot. And are you going to Joel?
Christine: Yes. Yes.
David: Okay, good.
Christine: Joel 3:18 talks about this when, again, when God visits his people, when the Messiah is installed and the Messianic Kingdom comes, Joel 3:18 describes that, "In that day, the mountains will drip new wine and the hills will flow with milk. All the ravines of Judah will run with water. Um, fountain will flow out of the Lord's house and will water the valley of acacias." So there's this outpouring of water, outpouring of wine.New wine even, which is interesting because Jesus' brand new wine tastes like the best vintage in the world.
David: Yeah.
Christine: But it's showing that you guys are looking for a Messianic kingdom and the banquet where God visits His people and marries His people again, have a drink.
David: [laughs] This is it.
Christine: Have a-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... taste, taste and see that God is among you.
David: That's right. The groom is here, y- and Yahweh has come as the groom to remarry and reconcile His people to Himself, and the sign of that is that He provides the wedding day joy.
Christine: Yes, out of waters of purification no less.
David: Yes. These are jars for ritual purification that people were using to clean up as they, before they, while they were eating and, and participating in all the feasting and, and in the ceremony, that they would use these jars to clean themselves. And Jesus takes those and turns them into wine, which is-
Christine: Which is a lot of wine
David: ... which is a ton of wine.
Christine: We said, and we said six jars wasn't enough [laughs] because John does sevens, but six jars of wine is a lot.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's a lot.
David: And, and showing that His wine, His blood will be the ultimate-
Christine: Exactly
David: ... clean- cleaning agent for His people.
Christine: And gladdening life.
David: Yeah.
Christine: You know, it's, uh, I think it's a Hebrew idiom to call wine the blood of grapes.
David: Yeah, it is.
Christine: And yeah, okay, I heard that somewhere. But it is true that it's the lifeblood of God that He is prefiguring and offering, as it were.
David: Yeah. So even in this one instance, in this one miracle, we can see that it is a sign of many things.
Christine: So many.
David: Right? It's a sign that He's going to provide cleansing and atonement. It's a sign that He is the new groom. It's the sign that the Messianic Kingdom has come. It's a sign that He is Yahweh in the flesh, for who else could do something like this? It's the sign of many things, and in it He's revealing His glory. And so when we come to these signs, we ask what is it pointing to? It's always going to be pointing to the fact that Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh and is doing everything to reconcile us to Himself.
Christine: He's come-
David: But there's also these little points that it's making.
Christine: Yeah, He's come to His people, and yeah, this is a new creation thing because water into wine is a new creation-
David: Right
Christine: ... moment, and it's for the, the enjoyment of God with His people, like Jesus honoring the wedding banquet with His presence and with His hospitality.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Like He kind of plays host there to all the joys that ensue. It's really beautiful.
David: And so the second sign that He does is He heals the official's son, and this is in chapter 4:46 and onward. Jesus comes back to Cana in Galilee, w- and, and John even calls out, this is where He turned water into wine. [laughs]
Christine: Yes.
David: And a royal official whose son is ill in Capernaum, which is a little ways away, comes and finds Jesus and begs Him to do something because his son is about to die. And Jesus responds, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe." And I had always heard this, these words of Jesus in a very negative tone.
Christine: It can easily be read as a rebuke.
David: Right. But it kind of, if you read it in the flow of the argument, it, it doesn't make sense, and if you look at how everyone responds, it doesn't really, the r- a rebuke doesn't sound like it makes sense.
Christine: Yeah, and it doesn't sound like this is a pithy r- demand for a sign like, "Prove yourself." This is an official begging for the life of his son.
David: Yes.
Christine: Which he continues to do even after Jesus says that.
David: Yes.
Christine: So it's not-
David: He comes with faith
Christine: ... yeah, it's not a petty thing to beg for your son's life-
David: Mm
Christine: ... by any means. And he comes to Jesus, which is if this is a royal official of the Roman guard, which I'm not sure if this is a Roman representative or a Jewish representative.
David: Right. It's not clear.
Christine: It's not clear, but however, whoever it is, he is submitting himself to this-
David: Other king [laughs]
Christine: ... traveling ra- well, I was gonna say traveling rabbi.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Like, yes, Jesus is king and, and God. [laughs] Um, but as far as they can see, He's-
David: Oh, yeah
Christine: ... He's-
David: He's just this traveling homeless rabbi. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, He's a wonder worker at the very least, someone who has shown He has the power to heal, and so this person comes on behalf of someone lying sick in Capernaum to Cana to ask Jesus to come and heal-
David: Yes
Christine: ... his son.
David: And Jesus' response is, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe," which is a bit of John's thesis statement for why Jesus is doing signs and wonders, so that we might believe.
Christine: Yeah.
David: "I write these things to you so that you might believe"-
Christine: Yes
David: ... is his point for writing this, and believe that Jesus is who He said He was. But you need signs of that invisible reality. I often, this is a confession, I often take his rebuke of the Pharisees, "A corrupt generation looks for a sign"-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... and apply that to every other times He brings a sign to someone. But Jesus is doing signs of His own free will constantly to people and revealing His glory through the signs and begging people in John multiple times to believe in Him because of the signs.
Christine: Yes.
David: Signs, the fact that we need signs in order to believe in Jesus-
Christine: Yeah, sign-
David: ... isn't a negative thing.
Christine: It's not a judgment against us.
David: No.
Christine: It's what God does for His people.
David: It's what He's always done.
Christine: Yeah.
David: We just saw that as we've walked through-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... the Old Testament.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so He's, He's, He's saying a fact here. He's not rebuking this man.
Christine: Yeah.
David: He's saying, "Yeah, unless you guys see signs and wonders, you're not gonna believe." And so to that, the official says to Jesus, "Sir, come down before my little boy dies." He's like, "Cool. If that's true, do the sign because I believe."
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: "So come do a sign."
Christine: Please heal my son, yeah.
David: So he doesn't change his course when Jesus says that, which means it wasn't a rebuke. And so he, you know, He's like, you know, "Go, go, go back. Your son is healed." And He just says it-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... from a long way away. And-
Christine: It is a challenge, a challenge of faith. Sorry, not a challenge of character or anything like that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But it isInviting the official to take Jesus at his word.
David: That's right.
Christine: And going back, 'cause Jesus doesn't give him a sign he can see immediately. He just gives him a command. He says, "Go back. Your son will live."
David: And there will be a sign waiting for you.
Christine: Yes.
David: Okay, here we go again. This is actually really cool. So Jesus says that he will be healed, and he will live. That is the invisible reality without a sign.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But then the sign comes the next day when he's on his way back to Capernaum, and he's met on the road. And they say, "Your son's alive, and it happened at the time that Jesus said yesterday."
Christine: Yes, and the father-
David: And so the sign verifies that the invisible thing that Jesus said was true.
Christine: Yes.
David: So-
Christine: Yeah. The father realizes that that time was the exact time that Jesus said, "Your son will live." And so he and all his household believed.
David: Mm.
Christine: Which is just so cool. There's this-
David: And it proves Jesus' words.
Christine: Yes.
David: They saw a sign, so they believed.
Christine: Yes. Small faith, big sign, whole household believes. And again, that's the result of the second sign of Jesus recorded in John is the same as the first sign. People put their faith in him.
David: Mm.
Christine: Which is why Jesus came.
David: It's why he's doing the signs.
Christine: And why John is writing.
David: Yes.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah, people are responding properly to the signs-
Christine: Yes
David: ... a- as, as it, as it begins here.
Christine: It's not a condemnation. It's-
David: Mm
Christine: ... an accommodation or a condescension to human frailty. [laughs]
David: Oh, that's so helpful. Yeah, the signs aren't a condemnation. I'm showing you signs, and you're just gonna ignore me, and, oh, you want signs from me. It's not that. It is a accom- a, a, an accommodation-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... that Jesus is like, "Oh, I'm, I want to show myself to you. I want to prove to you that I am who I said I am. It's why I put lights in the sky. It's why I put a rainbow in the sky. It's why I gave Abraham circumcision. It's why I brought you out of Egypt because I want to prove that I am with you and for you and will rescue you and am, am who I said I am."
Christine: Yeah. Yes. I cover the world with signs so that you may know that I love you, which it's... I, I fall into that all the time. I think God is stingy or worn-
David: Mm
Christine: ... worn out by my unbelief or by my doubts, and, and He's not exhaustible in that way. He's not diminished by, "Oh, you ask for something else? Oh, fine." Now, there is... The signs do act as judgment if you harden your heart and say, "Nevertheless, I won't believe what is undeniable even to my eyes."
David: That's right.
Christine: However, how many stars did He put in the sky? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: He-
David: How many signs are there?
Christine: How many signs are there-
David: Billions
Christine: ... of God's, of God's love, of God's sovereignty?
David: He, He never tires of giving us signs.
Christine: No.
David: But He begs us to heed them.
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: He's never... That's a good way to put it. He's never short on signs, and He also begs us to believe.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Oh, that's so good. Okay, so the third sign, this one's really fun. So Jesus is in Jerusalem. He's near the temple, and He goes through the Sheep Gate to a pool called Bethesda, and there's five porticoes that lead into it. And He sees there that there's this ill, blind, lame, and paralyzed people all around. But He fixates on one man who had been ill and had been there for 38 years. And when Jesus-
Christine: Ugh
David: ... sees him lying there, which we'll come back maybe if we have time to 38 years, but when Jesus sees him lying there and knew that he had been there a long time, He said to him, "Do you wanna be made well?" And the ill man answers him, "Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I'm making my way, someone else steps down ahead of me." And Jesus says to him, "Stand up, take your mat, and walk." And at once, the man was made well, and he took up his mat and began to walk.
Christine: God is among us.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And He's healing.
David: And so this is a really interesting one because the, the people that had come to this pool were experiencing something miraculous when the water was stirred up, and there's a lot of different opinions about what's going on at the pool of Bethesda. But the idea is that water is healing.
Christine: There's an angel that comes and stirs up the water.
David: Yes. In a lot of textual traditions in this passage, you might see it in a footnote in your, in your Bible depending on your translation, or it might actually be in your Bible in the text proper. But it explains that why were people waiting at this pool? Well, it's because an angel would come and stir up the water, and the first one who got to the water would be healed.
Christine: Which is the five porticoes and the angel stirring up healing water just, if I'm looking at the images here, just screams Old Testament.
David: That's right.
Christine: It's the Pentateuch. It's the five-
David: The five books of Moses
Christine: ... five books of Moses that were mediated by angels and offered healing and cleansing to God's people.
David: That's right.
Christine: For God's, you know, ill, beset, crippled people, and it did provide healing. It was-
David: Yes
Christine: ... effectual, but it wasn't the ultimate healing.
David: Are you saying that the Torah is a sign? [laughs]
Christine: I think so, and I have biblical groundings for that.
David: You, yeah, you do. We actually read it earlier- [laughs]
Christine: Yeah
David: ... in Deuteronomy 6.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: The law is also a sign.
David: The law is a sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: And Jesus comes to an embodiment of that law, the five porticoes, healing water mediated by an angel, and everyone's trying to get to that water to be healed.
Christine: Yes.
David: But only one at a time, and whoever gets there first.
Christine: Yes.
David: This man has never been able to get to the pool first, and he never has a man to take him down to the water and heal him. And so the healing water of life itself comes in a man to this person who's been waiting for healing and shows, "I am the one the sign of Moses pointed to."
Christine: Yes.
David: "I am the one who's bringing healing to the world."
Christine: I am the embodied law, the fulfillment of the law. I am God who gave you the law reaching out to you, which we were talking about how Jesus is living water and gives living water, and that's a whole other theme in John. But the fact that this man-Could not get to the water, and so the living water comes to him, is such a beautiful meditation and reveals the glory of God-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and, and His heart for humanity that's crippled and unable to heal itself.
David: Yeah. And it reminds me of what we were talking about with how God's signs are inexhaustible. He never gets tired of sharing signs with us.
Christine: Billions of stars.
David: Billions of stars. John Chrysostom, when he writes, one of the early church fathers, writes about this passage, he talks about how the water was a one-time usage time. A, the angel would come and stir up the water, someone would get in and be healed. Amazing. So much grace, so much mercy.
Christine: Yes.
David: So beautiful. What a gift. There's magic water in Jerusalem. [laughs] Like, that's crazy.
Christine: It's wonderful.
David: That's ... What a gift of the Lord to these people. But it's exhaustible.
Christine: Yeah.
David: One, one-time use only. When Jesus comes to this man, he is not diminished in the least whenever he avails himself of the mercy of Jesus, and Chrysostom talks about how no matter how many sinners come upon the mercies and living water of Jesus, He is not by any means diminished to give all the sinners all the cleansing that they could ever want.
Christine: Yes.
David: And it's just this beautiful sign. So again, we're meditating on signs here. Yes, this proves that Jesus is the law giver, Yahweh Himself. Yes, it proves that He is going to heal the nations and make new creation out of the old. But, like, there's also other things to meditate on here, that it's a sign that Jesus's healing is inexhaustible. It's not one-time use.
Christine: Yeah.
David: As if we confess our sins, He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Continually. That i- and, like, you think about what He just came out of with the, the woman in Samaria in John 4. "If you come to me, you'll have water. You'll never thirst again, because living water's gonna well up inside of you, and there's gonna be an inexhaustible flood of nourishment and water and cleansing and life that is just coming through you because I'm going to dwell in you." So it's a sign of so many things.
Christine: Yeah. It's easy to see how you could exhaust a puddle.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But you can't exhaust living water, a river.
David: Yeah. It's always new. It's always flowing. It's always moving. So good.
Christine: I forget which church father or theologian said this, but it's been such an encouragement to me-
David: Mm
Christine: ... talking about this inexhaustibility of God's mercy, is that he compares your sin to this burning coal in your hand-
David: Mm
Christine: ... that it burns you, and you need to let it go. And what you do is you go to the edge of the ocean, and you throw it into God's measureless, boundless love and forgiveness, His mercy.
David: Mm.
Christine: And what does a burning coal do to an ocean? Absolutely nothing.
David: Absolutely nothing.
Christine: All of our sins can get dumped into that, and it will not even make a difference.
David: Mm.
Christine: And that idea of that encouragement to come with your sin, it's not gonna be too much for God to handle.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Throw it into the ocean. It will be extinguished. It will be forgiven. It will be down at the bottom of the sea, never to be remembered again, and that, too, is just showing-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... God's inexhaustible love. A burning coal can't do anything to an ocean.
David: What I love about that is it's continuing to add layers to what signs are. How do I know what Jesus is like? Okay, Jesus is God. What is God like? [laughs] He's like this.
Christine: Yes.
David: Well, how do I know that? 'Cause there's a sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: Because He healed this man. [laughs]
Christine: Yes.
David: And, and look at the way He healed him and the tenderness with which He healed him. So, so many cool things. That was the third sign. Let's move to the fourth. The fourth and the fifth are in chapter 6.
Christine: Yes. The fourth one is Jesus feeding the 5,000.
David: Yeah, which is kind of a familiar story to a lot of us, I hope, in that, that you've got many people are gathering to hear Jesus teach, and there's no food left for them, and they're far away from any place to get food, and so they're like, "We gotta send them back." And, uh, Jesus is like, "Well, uh, what do we got?" "Well, we got five loaves and two fish." And He multiplies it and, and feeds a multitude of people out in the wilderness area-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... and provides them with bread and food.
Christine: It's a sign significant enough, not that it diminishes the significance of the other signs, but it's a sign that notably every Gospel writer recounts.
David: That's right.
Christine: And so each of them find this significant, and I think it, one of the reasons at least, is because it is such a clear sign of the desert in Exodus.
David: That's right.
Christine: God providing for His people.
David: Yes. And John actually makes that connection for us.
Christine: He does.
David: Uh, we actually get to hear Jesus talk about how God fed His people in the wilderness through manna, but now He is the living bread that is coming to feed His people.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so, and He's showing that, "Look, no matter how many people come to me, again, I'm inexhaustible. I can multiply bread for as many who would come to me."
Christine: Yes.
David: "And if you want life and you want to walk through the wilderness of death and enter into the promised land of new creation and life, come and eat me, and I will sustain you and bring you into that new life. I am the bread."
Christine: The bread of life, yeah.
David: And so again, this is a sign. It's a sign what? That just as Yahweh fed His people in the wilderness through manna, Jesus is feeding His people through bread, which is a sign that He is Yahweh. He is God equal with Him. It's also a sign of, well, what's He gonna do? He's gonna sustain you. He's gonna give you life. He's going to feed you and, and cares about your hunger. It shows who He is. It's a sign to many things about His character, but also to His ontology, to His divine nature.
Christine: Yeah. It maps Jesus onto Yahweh, the God of Israel, who enacted the feeding in the wilderness and the exodus, the Passover exodus, freedom from slavery as well, which you'll notice that the, His whole discourse about the bread of life happens after John recounts the walking on water, which is the next sign. And so there's an interesting kind of separation between feeding the 5,000 and sort of the discourse exploring the implications of feeding the 5,000. There's crossing a body of water in between that, which I think-Is also John retelling the Exodus story because the people come to Jesus, a, a multitude come to Jesus kind of in a hurry, almost like they didn't have time to eat. They came in haste, and Jesus provides a Passover-like meal for them, and it's Yahweh going before His people. He sends-
David: His disciples
Christine: ... His disciples across a body of water, and then He Himself walks across it as on dry land.
David: Mm.
Christine: So God and His people cross a body of water, and then on the other side, in the Exodus story, we would expect to get the manna story, the f- the bread from heaven. And that is where Jesus explains that He is the bread that came down from heaven.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And they even quote, "Moses gave," you know-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... "his people bread."
David: "You followed me out here 'cause you want another meal. Guess what? I am the meal."
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yes.
David: That's really cool. So yeah, so you've got the fourth sign of the feeding of the 5,000, the fifth sign, walking on water, a new crossing of the Red Sea, a new exodus, a new escape from the powers. It's also a sign that Jesus will conquer all forces of chaos and evil because He's walking on water, which isn't just a cool sign, and it's not only a repeat of the Red Sea story. It's also for, for the Hebrew mind and for the Hebrew Bible, uh, the waters were, were the abode of chaos and evil powers, and Jesus is stomping on their heads as He's walking across the water, proving that He is going to be the one who squashes them, defeats them, like the signs of the plagues did in Egypt, that He is the Most High God who can crush the heads of the other gods and lead His people out of their enslavement and into victory.
Christine: It is so cool. Yeah, the way that even that marching across the sea for Jesus is like a conquest of His enemies or a sign that He will vanquish all forces of chaos is just really cool and, again, tying us back to the Old Testament story that we know so well of God leading His people across the Red Sea. And Jesus even claims that divine name for Himself when He identifies Himself to His bewildered disciples who are seeing Him approach on the waves, and He says, "Don't be afraid. It is I," which is saying, "I am Yahweh-
David: Mm
Christine: ... or I am He," which is a statement that God makes of Himself when He is revealing Himself to Moses.
David: Yeah. So you get all the Exodus stuff just smacked in here.
Christine: It's so cool. [laughs]
David: His walking on water is like the plagues, and the crossing of the Red Sea, the feeding of the 5,000 is like the Passover and the manna in the wilderness. Even His discourse with them is, is almost like a new law given to them, and they shall not live on bread alone, but every, [laughs] by every word that comes from the mouth of the Logos. So there's a lot going on. That is the fourth and fifth signs. The sixth sign is in chapter nine.
Christine: I love this... I love all of them.
David: [laughs]
Christine: But this one is so beautiful. It's hard to pick a favorite. I love the next one, too.
David: You know what? I won't make you f- pick a favorite.
Christine: Okay, thank you.
David: Unless we bring the eighth one in, then you have to pick that one.
Christine: [laughs] Deal.
David: You have to pick the resurrection of Jesus always. Okay, uh, walk us through this one, Christine.
Christine: Yeah, this sign is in chapter nine, and basically the entire chapter is dedicated to the sign itself and then its investigation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Which we kind of see that in the previous sign of feeding the 5,000. That is, the people kind of demand Jesus to repeat that in a way, or they kind of bring some sort of criticism or opposition to His sign in asking, "Where is more?"
David: Yeah.
Christine: And in this case, there is almost a forensic interrogation or examination of this sign, which is very interesting, but it's where Jesus heals a man who was born blind. We saw Him heal someone who was crippled for 38 years, which who knows how much of his life that was, but here's someone who was born blind, had never seen light-
David: Mm
Christine: ... or anyone, and Je-
David: He, He couldn't see the signs.
Christine: He couldn't see the signs. Here's someone who literally could not see anything, let alone the signs of the rainbow, of the stars-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... of anything, really. But Jesus comes, and in a new creation fashion, as the light of the world, which He claims to be the light of the world just before this, He gives light to this man's eyes-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and restores his sight. He, in a way, is showing that He is the light to all humanity because this man, you could argue, or you could kind of see all of humanity wrapped up in this man because we're all born blind. We are all born ignorant of God's signs and-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... love for us, and we are born-
David: We're the darkness that John talked about at the beginning.
Christine: Yeah, we are born in the darkness of sin and inability to, to behold God-
David: Mm
Christine: ... which is what we were intended for. You know, humans were intended to see, and see God no less.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And so even those who see sometimes miss God, who's standing right in front of them. And so in some ways, this sign is commenting on that because God comes, Jesus comes in the flesh. The invisible God becomes visible to-
David: And then gives a man's sight to be able to behold Him.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It's so beautiful.
David: One, one, one thing you just said really struck me is He says He's the light of the world. Prove it. Okay, here's the sign. I'm gonna give light to a man's eyes so that he can see the light of the world.
Christine: Yes.
David: And so again, that's just fitting the paradigm that, that the Bible has already set up for us on how signs operate-
Christine: Yes
David: ... is a claim is made that needs to be substantiated, and then it's substantiated by a sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: I'm the light of the world. Here's the proof.
Christine: Yes, and there's a lot of irony in this one-
David: Mm
Christine: ... because there are people who reject the sign, and the man who is healed is showing more and more sight the more he is given it.
David: More sight meaning he knows who Jesus is and claims who He, He, He is.
Christine: Yes. His whole encounter with those who are questioning the sign that was done to him is just very interesting 'cause the longer it goes on, the more you realize-The people he is talking to are blind.
David: Right.
Christine: 'Cause they do not recognize or want to recognize Jesus, God who is in front of them. The God who gave them the Sabbath, they are rejecting because this God acted in a way that they would not accept on the Sabbath.
David: Right.
Christine: New creation.
David: And that's how the story ends, is they say, "What, you're calling us blind?"
Christine: Yes.
David: He's like, "Huh, yeah." [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: "I am."
Christine: 'Cause this one, the man who's healed says, "Lord, I believe." And his, at first he's like, "I, I don't know who he is, but I know that I was blind, and now I see."
David: And now I see. I don't know about the claim, but I know about the sign.
Christine: Yes.
David: And the sign to me proves the claim.
Christine: Yes. I have sight now. I see.
David: Yeah. He is squarely within the reason Jesus is doing signs.
Christine: Yes, and the more they scrutinize him, the more his faith grows, 'cause he says greater and greater things about him.
David: Wow.
Christine: First he says, "He's a prophet," and then he says, "Well, I don't know who he is, but he opened my eyes." And then he's like, "Well, wait a second, you don't know where this man comes from, but he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does His will. Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. If this man were not from God, he could do nothing." So he went from all these kind of guesses and stuff to, "This man has to be from God."
David: Yeah.
Christine: "Because otherwise he couldn't do anything. 'Cause what he did to me is unprecedented until now."
David: Wow.
Christine: And the people can't argue with his logic, so they, they just say, "Well, you've been a sinner since birth," and throw him out.
David: And then end up manifesting their own blindness.
Christine: Yes.
David: What's interesting, too, you mentioned irony. I'm thinking how Jesus performed this healing on the Sabbath, and the leaders use that as a reason to deny the miracle be- And what's fascinating about that is, like we said, the Sabbath is a sign.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And they think that He is making a mockery of that sign by, quote-unquote, working on the Sabbath. And you, you wouldn't do the work of God on the Sabbath because God doesn't, because we don't work on the Sabbath, and God told us to, and that's a sign that we belong to Him. So that's their logical argument that they're making of why to discredit this man's signs. But the reality is that this is the work of God that Jesus is doing. His Father's working. He's gonna keep working. And the Sabbath is a new creation, and He's bringing let there be light on a, the day one of a new creation that's dawning for this man and the whole world-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... in the presence of the Word made flesh.
Christine: Yeah, yeah. The irony even begins with people not recognizing the man-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... because he has eyes now.
David: Oh, right. They're like-
Christine: You know, he's like-
David: ... "Oh, who is this guy? Is this the one who was blind?"
Christine: "Is he w-" Yeah, they're doubting their own eyes.
David: That's so funny.
Christine: And the man keeps saying, "I am the man. I am the man." And they're like, "Well, how did he open your eyes?" And he says, you know, "The man called Jesus made mud and opened, like-
David: Oh, my goodness
Christine: ... anointed my eyes, and then I washed, and now I see."
David: It's like a comedy.
Christine: It's so steeped in irony, and the, the, and the people don't believe what they see before them, a man seeing who says, "I was blind, and now I see." So they call in his parents. They interrogate him again. They consult among themselves. They say, "Now how did he open your eyes?" And he's like, "I already told you. Do you want to be His disciples?" And so-
David: [laughs]
Christine: ... the man's-
David: Would you like to have your, your blindness healed too?
Christine: Yeah, it becomes more and more apparent that people who have eyes are disbelieving them and are darkening their own understanding as a result.
David: Right.
Christine: And he, his eyes just keep getting more and more open.
David: So again, this is the paradigmatic sign of the Exodus repeated again here. I'm gonna give Pharaoh numerous signs. I'm gonna multiply my signs to Pharaoh.
Christine: Mm.
David: And he's going to multiply the hardness of his own heart. And that is what we see here played out in this courtroom, is as the signs are multiplied that this man clearly was healed by a man of God, the, those who are blind get more and more blind. They get more and more hard in their hearts.
Christine: Yes, so there's a contrast of-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... sight and blindness throughout, and it's part of the, of God's showing up and presence in the world is-
David: That's right
Christine: ... humanity is experiencing a new creation, and we see that with light given to a man who had never seen it before.
David: Yeah, and that's something that Jesus himself will say throughout John, is that the judgment that has come into the world is the fact that He is in the world. And so whether or not you belong to God is all dependent upon will you respond and believe in and trust and enjoin yourself to the w- the Yahweh that the signs are pointing to. And so the signs act in this way, that they're giving people the opportunity through-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... inexhaustible, multitudinous signs and opportunities to come to Yahweh, but they have to decide.
Christine: It's a warning for me as someone who reads the Bible a lot and wants to know it backwards and forwards. I don't want to know or to have so much of its laws and text in me that I miss the God who-
David: They all point to
Christine: ... who they point to.
David: Yeah.
Christine: 'Cause they are hung up on, "Well, we can't do anything on the Sabbath, so that can't be God."
David: Right.
Christine: And it's like, your Torah is blocking your vision of God.
David: Yeah, and you're-
Christine: Which means you're-
David: Yeah, you're also saying that God can't do things that He wants to do.
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: [laughs] You're holding a law that was made for you-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... for Him.
Christine: God, God gave you the Torah.
David: [laughs]
Christine: You don't im- like impose that on God.
David: That's right. That's not how suzerain vassal treaties worked. [laughs]
Christine: Not exactly.
David: If anyone knows what that means. And what that made me think of too was something that Jesus says during one of His other signs. He says, "You search the scriptures daily because you think that in them you have eternal life, but it's they that testify to Me."
Christine: Yes.
David: "They are all a sign pointing to Me."
Christine: Yes.
David: So yeah, I think this is, that's such a good word, Christine. I completely agree. As somebody who spends their time in the Bible, I'm terrified to lose the whole purpose of spoken gospel, that the Bible remains a sign, a sign that points to Jesus.
Christine: Yes. Signs should train us to recognize God when He shows up.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And-
David: So maybe.
Christine: Yeah. Maybe.
David: Give us eyes to see, God.
Christine: Lord, help us.
David: Be the light that you are. All right, last sign. There's, or I should say seventh sign.
Christine: The seventh and biggest sign.
David: Yeah, the sign of Lazarus. Lazarus, friend of Jesus, he is sick and near death, and Jesus hears about that and stays away for a time.
Christine: Because why?
David: So that he might receive glory? Is that the way it's worded? How's it worded?
Christine: Jesus, in 11:4, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... so that God's Son may be glorified through it."
David: Yeah.
Christine: So-
David: This does not end in death, it ends in my glory. [laughs]
Christine: Yes, yes.
David: And so he gets news that Lazarus does die, and then travels there, and his sisters are saying, "Oh, Lord, if you'd have been here, he wouldn't have died." But again, he reiterates this idea that he's doing this for his glory, to reveal the glory of God. He's doing it as a sign.
Christine: Yeah, and it's not-
David: That Lazarus is gonna be part of this sign.
Christine: Yeah, and it's not at Lazarus's expense either. It's not like it's, "Well, I'm gonna let him suffer and die so that I can flex here."
David: Oh, yeah.
Christine: It's-
David: Interesting
Christine: ... you weren't saying that. I just wanted-
David: No
Christine: ... to kind of highlight that that is not what you're saying. [laughs]
David: Right.
Christine: 'Cause the text even says it's... First of all, we know that's not how God treats people.
David: Right.
Christine: He doesn't manipulate them to flex over them.
David: No.
Christine: Um, quite the opposite. See the incarnation. [laughs] Um, he suffers so that we might be healed and-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... glorified and turn into ruling sons of light. Anyways, it says that Jesus loves Martha and her sister and Lazarus, shows that this is out of such deep compassion. And when he weeps over Lazarus, even the Jews who are there are like, "See how he loved him?" And I think something which you can push back on, but a meditation that I love is putting this in the context of the verse or the chapter just before it, whi- in which Jesus talks about being the Good Shepherd and giving his life for the sheep.
David: Mm.
Christine: And having life in himself and being able to take it up again. He talks about resurrection stuff beforehand-
David: That's right
Christine: ... and how he gives life for his sheep, and that no one can snatch them out of his hand, and it's almost like that is challenged in the very next chapter, because no one can snatch your sheep out of your hand? Watch death do it.
David: Again, these I am statements and these claims that Jesus is making are then substantiated by the signs themselves.
Christine: Yes.
David: This is the pattern of John.
Christine: Yes.
David: I don't think I've ever seen it that clearly, that it's Jesus makes some insane [laughs] if he wasn't God in the flesh-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... insane statements about who he is.
Christine: Yeah. What if a sheep dies? Watch me. [laughs]
David: No one, not even death himself, can snatch-
Christine: Yes
David: ... my sheep out of my hands. Let me go prove it.
Christine: Which is such good news.
David: My friend Lazarus is going into the grave, and I'm going to go gather him again.
Christine: Yes. Remember how David tore open the jaws of lions to rescue his sheep? Well, here's Jesus about to pry open the jaw of death itself-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... to bring his friend back. It's, it's so beautiful. And yeah, it's a sign that shows that he is who he says he is and can actually accomplish what he says he will accomplish. And so there's this beautiful, beautiful story of Jesus going to the tomb of Lazarus and calling him to come out, and with his own authority, very simply, which we might overlook because it is so simple, but Lazarus comes out and he is alive, and more people put their faith in Jesus as a result of this sign, too.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Christine: A resurrection is followed by faith in Jesus.
David: Yeah. So these signs of John, they're pointing to who Jesus is, ultimately the Son of God in the flesh, come to bring humanity into himself and reconcile people to himself. That's what John's point is, that you might believe that Jesus is the King of Israel, the Messiah, and the Son of God, and that by believing in him, you might have his life in you. We read that in the very first episode of the, the John stuff to say this is the point of John, and that is also the point of Jesus' signs and the reason why John reported them to us, so that we might know, ultimately, so that we might believe in the final sign and that we might know that it occurred, that Jesus has life in himself, that he is the God who defeats death and chaos and disorder, and he does so in his resurrection, which is the ultimate sign. Death swallowed Jesus up, and it seemed to be the final sign that he was not who he said he was, because he went into the grave. But Jesus, in his resurrection, proved that he is who he said he is, that he has done what he said he would do. And so I remember being at a church conference, and it was a very, like, charismatic church conference, like very exuberant worship, a lot of big claims being sung on the lips of, of teenagers there.
Christine: Mm.
David: And I, I had come off stage. I think it was 22,000 young people. It was at the Tennessee Volunteer Stadium, just huge conference, and I came off stage and I was, I was sitting at my booth and talking to some people, and this girl came up to me so angry, and she looked at me and she just said, "I, I just see people in there worshiping and saying that they can feel God's presence and they know he's near and they feel his holiness and his closeness. All I see is a room full of people. How do I know that God is real?"
Christine: Hmm.
David: And by God's grace, [laughs] the only answer I had for her was the resurrection.
Christine: Hmm.
David: And I was like, "You have to believe in the sign that..." [laughs] And I was like, and I, and obviously I didn't just jump to that. We, we, we sat in that tension-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... with her for a while. But ultimately what we came to was the fact that Jesus is raised from the dead. 'Cause she asked me, "Why do you believe?" is what she ended up asking. Like, "Why do you believe that that's not just an empty room?"
Christine: Hmm.
David: That all these things that they're saying, that Jesus said, that the Bible says, why do you think that those invisible claims are true? I'm like, " 'Cause I have a sign."
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And my sign is that Jesus rose from the dead, that he had witnesses see it, and that that truth has been passed down to me.From it happening.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Like, I believe in the sign. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: And-
Christine: That's really good
David: ... yeah, and if, and if it wasn't for the sign, I wouldn't believe.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Just like Jesus said. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: I need the sign.
Christine: Yeah.
David: I cling to the sign of his-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... resurrection.
Christine: Yeah.
David: I need it. [laughs]
Christine: That's very good.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. And it does show. I- And Jesus proves as much, or at least proves it in a maybe a smaller way, if you can call Lazarus' resurrection small, but him just saying, "Lazarus, come out"-
David: Mm
Christine: ... not, "In the name of the Father, Lazarus, come out," is proving that he has life in himself.
David: Yeah.
Christine: He is God.
David: He is life. He is God.
Christine: Yes. He is life, and he says as much. He says he has life in himself to give to whomever, and he does that for Lazarus, and he also says he has the authority to lay down his life and authority to take it up again. And so he shows that he has life in himself by raising Lazarus, not in the name of the Father, but in his own name.
David: In his own authority.
Christine: In his own authority, and we could dive into why he just says, "Lazarus" too, but the fact that then he shows that he has the authority to lay down his life and take it up again. If you read the account of Jesus' betrayal, trial, crucifixion, and death closely, you'll notice he is orchestrating and in control of every detail. He is in charge of how they arrest him, how they try him unjustly, how he is put to death because he knows he must be lifted up, and even the fact that he bows his head and then dies-
David: Mm
Christine: ... is all showing, is all John showing Jesus is in control of everything here, even though it sound, it looks like he is getting thrown around by people who just want him dead. He is orchestrating everything as God in the flesh, and as God in the flesh, he enters our death. He enters-
David: Mm
Christine: ... death, and by his authority, he comes back up again.
David: Yeah, he picks his life back up again.
Christine: And unlike Lazarus, who came out with his grave clothes still on, Jesus' grave clothes are put away for good.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And so-
David: He won't be needing those again
Christine: ... he won't need those again. Sadly, Lazarus will. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Christine: Poor guy. He has two burial sites, but Jesus puts his grave clothes away for good, and that is the life he is inviting us into.
David: And so our hope is that we would believe in that truth.
Christine: And have life in his name.
David: Because of the signs.
Christine: Yeah.
David: We've been given signs.
Christine: Yeah, out of God's love for us-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... not out of his rebuke.
David: Yeah. And I think it's cool, too, that we still have signs today, too. I think of the meal that Jesus fed the 5,000 with as a sign.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: He extends to us weekly [laughs] as-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... the church today.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That we continually get to participate in that sign.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That how do I know that Jesus lived as God in the flesh, died to feed me his life, and then raised it up so I might follow him into glory? Well, it's because every week I come to him at the table and meet him and bring his life into myself.
Christine: Yeah. How do you know Jesus is real? Well, I encounter him every week.
David: Every week. I touch him and-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... meet him and, yeah, bring his life into myself. How do you know that God raises the dead into new life? Because I've seen hundreds of baptisms.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I have a sign that it's right there.
Christine: Yeah.
David: I s- I, I saw someone go in, go under the water-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... dead, come out alive.
Christine: I only ... I not only believe in baptism, I've seen it happen. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs] I not only believe in baptism. I've seen it.
Christine: [laughs]
David: Yeah, but we have these signs.
Christine: Yeah.
David: You know, we have these signs.
Christine: And signs are not... We saw that with the official's son. Signs are not to the exclusion of faith.
David: No. Think about circumcision on its own. It's like how does that prove that God is going to make you into a multitude in this nation, Abraham? And he'd be like, "That's a dumb question." He was like, "That, that's not ... This sign doesn't prove that he's going to do it. It is a sign that, that he has promised to do it."
Christine: Yes.
David: Uh, the sign-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... yeah, is the sign-
Christine: And your-
David: It is-
Christine: ... your faith is joining in that or participating in that.
David: That's right, because if faith wasn't part of the equation, none of John would make sense-
Christine: That's true
David: ... because people would not harden their hearts to it.
Christine: Yeah, that's true. I'm just, yeah, I'm trying to round out the idea that, well, how do I know I have life in me? Well, because I come to the table and partake of Jesus every time. Well, how do you know that's Jesus? Because he said so.
David: And I have faith in that.
Christine: Because it's a sign.
David: That's right. It's a sign.
Christine: Yes. I'm, I'm, I'm invited to not shut my eyes to the sign, to not harden my heart to what's clearly in front of me, to the invisible made visible-
David: Mm
Christine: ... to signs pointing me to a reality, and it's my, my response to those signs is to join in faith with what they are doing.
David: And to hopefully be like the man born blind, and time and time again, when you're brought face to face with the reality of that sign, to see more and more clearly who Jesus is.
Christine: Yeah, and in a way, like, I can say that, too, walking with Jesus for years. Hopefully, we are growing in our sight and in our ability to see him more and more.
David: Mm.
Christine: And so, yeah, I see more of him now.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And I see more now is by his grace the trajectory we are on.
David: Yeah. I mean, think about later in John with the vine metaphor. How do I know that I abide in him? Well, I'm gonna bear fruit.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And he's gonna prune, and he's gonna make me bear more fruit.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And, and John's gonna pick up on that. It's a very biblical idea that-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... how do I know I'm in the Father? Well, are you bearing fruit?
Christine: Yeah. Okay, well, I did not think of this question earlier, but I'm just gonna throw it at you 'cause I'm, I'm curious if this carries any truth to it or weight to it. But John talks about, like, this is how we know that we belong to God, that we love each other, or this is how we know that we are in Christ, that we love one another.
David: Right.
Christine: Is love the fruit or the sign-
David: Oh
Christine: ... that we bear that is like w- we're like, "Am I in Christ or not? W- What fruit do I look for?" Or h- how me unpack that. Do you, do you know? [laughs]
David: Oh, I love this question. So when we read that story, I've heard so many people try to come up with what the fruit is, but Jesus tells us what the fruit is.He says, you know, "If you love me, you'll obey my commands." And then he goes on. We just don't read the rest. He says, "And my command is this, that you love others and lay down your life for them like I'm doing for you." That's the fruit. And so if you want to know if you're abiding in Jesus, are you loving your brother and sister? John's gonna make this explicit in 1 John, in his epistle.
Christine: That's what I was thinking. Yeah.
David: He, he equivocates those two right on top of each other.
Christine: Yeah.
David: No one can say, "I have the Father," and then hate his brother. You can't do it. It's impossible.
Christine: Yeah. And how can you claim you love God whom you haven't seen when love the-
David: If you can't love the sign of your Father, who is the man in front of you.
Christine: Wow.
David: There it is. Well, bam. [laughs] We ran right into that brick wall. [laughs]
Christine: Ow.
David: Humans are signs. [laughs]
Christine: Which is very biblical. We just unpacked that.
David: Very biblical.
Christine: I mean, starting with circumcision, and then the woman shall bear a child, and then Isaiah says-
David: Right
Christine: ... "Here I am and the children God has given me." We are signs and portents. It's, yeah.
David: It's all over the Bible.
Christine: Signs are people. People are signs. Jesus is the ultimate sign.
David: And so, yeah, and so John's point there stands. How can you say you love the Father if you don't love His sign, His image-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... here in the flesh, in the person in front of you?
Christine: Yeah.
David: What you do to the image, you do to the one it images.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah, so that's what's going on there. We even have signs today of our fruit.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Is like-
Christine: Do we love people more?
David: Am I loving people more and more?
Christine: That's the sign.
David: That's the sign that you're in Christ.
Christine: Oh, dear.
David: Which is awesome.
Christine: I have to lie down.
David: All right. Well, we- you can do that because this is the end of the episode.
Christine: Wow. Okay.
David: And so, guys, thank you for staying [laughs] and listening if you've made it this far to an extra-long episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, but it was really fun. I super appreciated it. Let us know how you're feeling about these episodes and, or even the track we took this time and the length we spent on it. You can always email us at [email protected], and we also now have the ability for you to send in your questions via voice recording, so we can play your voice on the podcast hopefully. So that's at speakpipe.com/spokengospel. We'd love to hear what questions you have about John or about signs or about anything else. Or if you want to share something that you're seeing in the Bible, we'd love to share that too. So send your recordings to us at speakpipe.com/spokengospel, and we'd love to engage with you in that way. Thank you all so much for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We will see you next time.
Christine: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]
