Seth: [gentle music] So we have these two statements in this poem that say that Israel's punishment is over.
David: It's been executed.
Seth: It's been executed.
David: Yeah, you can't commit capital punishment twice. Like, you put a man to death, you can't put him to death again.
Seth: Yeah, you can't die twice.
David: The punishment is done.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our walk into the Book of Lamentations. Last time, we walked through what are laments, and we looked at the structure of Lamentations' poetry, and today we're gonna dive into the book and look at its, uh, message, its theology, and its overall meaning to Israel and to us today. Seth, how are you?
Seth: I'm, I'm, I'm good.
David: You're good.
Seth: I'm excited about this podcast.
David: Great!
Seth: Um-
David: What makes you most excited?
Seth: It ends in one of my favorite meditations, I think-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... I've done in the last two or three years from scripture.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: Um, yeah, I think it's really fascinating. We'll end up landing in the silence of God.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, God does not speak in the book of Lamentations, and that is actually a mercy-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... for the people of Israel, and we'll talk- maybe I'll just, like, leave that little, uh-
David: Okay
Seth: ... breadcrumb.
David: You'll be silent about the silence for now.
Seth: I'll be silent about the silence for-
David: So meta
Seth: ... for now, and, uh, we'll get there.
David: Okay. Uh, so let's see. Last time, we talked about how laments are these protest songs that are talking about the human suffering that people are in, and that God has played a role in that. He's the God of the universe, and if he put them in this place, he can get them out of it. So they're calling on God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to rescue them out of their suffering. In particular, Lamentations is covenantal protest, in that God promised that if Israel was disobedient to his covenant, he would bring curses upon them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, they were disobedient.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Lamentations chronicles, encyclopedically, all the ways they broke the covenant and all the curses that have come upon them. They've admitted their wrongs, and now they're pulling on another part of the covenant, that God would return to his people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... return them to the land, be kind to them again.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they're hoping that his steadfast love that never ceases will bring them to that point, which is the center of the book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the middle of the poetic chiasm.
Seth: Yes.
David: But we asked the question last time, does the center of the chiasm, the center of Lamentations, God's faithfulness, is that enough to carry us through all the suffering that the people have to walk through?
Seth: That's right.
David: And the, uh, what's the, what, what's the word, the n- the acron-
Seth: Uh
David: ... the acronym?
Seth: The, uh, the acrostic?
David: The acrostic. Thank you.
Seth: Yes.
David: The acrostic breaks down towards the end. It's going A, B, C, D, A, B, C, D, but towards the end, it breaks down, as if showing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that the poet barely had enough breath to finish his thought.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and then he, it seems like he doesn't know if his faith in God's faithfulness is gonna give him the gas he needs-
Seth: To get through
David: ... to get through-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all the suffering. That's what we talked about last time.
Seth: Yeah, and that is really the w- why, the, the, the largest lens, widest lens?
David: Widest lens, yep.
Seth: Widest, largest lens, just big old lens.
David: Just a big lens.
Seth: L- the widest lens view of what the book of Lamentations is doing.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so today, I kinda wanna just go, like, chapter by chapter, poem by poem. Every chapter is its own distinct poem-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and just kinda talk about the unique contributions to that story each one has, and, um, the main message-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of the book of Lamentations.
David: That's great. Is there any overarching message that we need to have in our heads, or-
Seth: I mean, you already said it
David: ... are we gonna discover it? Okay.
Seth: The, the overarching message is right there in the middle, that, uh, God's mercies never end.
David: Okay.
Seth: And if he's been faithful to, um,
Seth: judge us and curse us for the covenant that we've broken, he will also be faithful to restore us, just as he promised he would. He promised he would curse us. He has.
David: And he has.
Seth: He also promised to restore us, so he will.
David: Such a strange... It seems like such a backwards way to meditate on God's faithfulness.
Seth: Right.
David: Not in a wrong way, but I don't go about it that often.
Seth: Yeah. It's like, it, it goes back to what we said in the previous podcast. Like, what lament does is it, it places, like, says God is the cause of our suffering.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And because he's the cause of our suffering, he can be the one to bring us out of it.
David: I see.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's some of the helpfulness that meditating on how Lamentations and Deuteronomy connect.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, it's helpful because they're seeing that this isn't random suffering caused by some off-the-hinge Babylonian army.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is fitting the story that we're in.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We are experiencing, although it's painful, God's covenant faithfulness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by suffering.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so we don't have to just,
David: just suffer. We can actually, uh, see how-
Seth: Therefore, I have hope.
David: Yeah, therefore, I have hope. Yeah, I can have hope in the middle of this, because I can put it in the story-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of God and see. So maybe God will be faithful to the good stuff, too-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... since he's been faithful in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the bad.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, that's just such a complicated statement. I needed to unpack it a little bit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, great. Poem one?
Seth: Poem one, chapter, chapter one. So the opening poem is written from the perspective of Jerusalem itself. Jerusalem, the city that's been destroyed by Babylon, is a woman who describes herself as a widow.
David: Hmm.
Seth: She's a widowed, a grieving widow who has fallen from grace, honor, and privilege. Her friends, her husband, everyone she knows, has left her. And worse, not only has everyone she'd known left her, but the God who once liberated her from slavery has also abandoned her-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... um, and has enslaved his bride to another.... slave master. And so Lady Jerusalem is lamenting, weeping at what has befallen her, and she demands that God look at what's happening to her.
David: Mm.
Seth: She admits that it's her fault, but she wants God to look at her distress, look at the evil that's befalling her at the hands of the Babylonian army, and do, and, and, and do something. Although, interestingly, she never says that, "Do something."
David: Mm.
Seth: She just says, "Look."
David: Look. Mm.
Seth: Look. I think you'll see as you go through chapter one, is just probably some of the more vivid language
Seth: used to describe Israel's, like, destitution. She talks about herself as a thankless bride who let other lovers and lords enter her most sacred places. Like, like, it's, like, very evocative language.
David: Mm.
Seth: The Babylonians publicly strip Lady Jerusalem naked-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, for her opportunism, and idolatry, and her immorality. And then climactically, as she's standing there naked, she calls God and says, "Look at me."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, "Look, God, do s- like, do something!"
David: Right, implicitly.
Seth: Although implicitly, do something. She's begging God to see her pain and the destitution brought against her.
David: Mm. Well, I was gonna ask, is there a reason why the author or the poet is pulling on this imagery of a bride, a woman? Is that doing something, um,
David: either like theol- like, like theologically or in the story of Scripture?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why personify Jerusalem as this harlotted bride?
Seth: I mean, that is a common image that the Bible will use to describe Israel, and, um, throughout the prophets, like, through the, the very end of Israel's history, that's a, an increasingly common thing among the prophets, that you were the, the jewel in God's eye. You were his bride, who he, he, you... He covenanted with you.
David: Mm.
Seth: He married you on Mount Sinai, and you've spent every moment since then making treaties and making military alliances with these other nations and these other gods for things God already said he would give to you.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so that's a common metaphor throughout Scripture.
David: It is- yeah, and it seems that to pull on that metaphor is doing two things, which we've talked about. One is Israel's accepting that title-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which has been a, um, typically in the prophets, like, a condemnation against her.
Seth: Yes.
David: "You're a, you're a harlot bride."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, they're like, "We are a harlot bride."
Seth: Yes.
David: So there, it's that confession-
Seth: It's that, it's that confession
David: ... side of things?
Seth: Yeah, it's an, it's an...
Seth: She knows she's in the wrong.
David: Yeah, but then the other side of it is just a- as God always uses it, it's, "But I love you, and I would return to you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's also that protest side of the l- the lament, saying-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Aren't I still your bride?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I know you've sent me off-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to be humiliated by these other men."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "But aren't I still your bride? Look at me."
Seth: That's right. "Look at me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I, I, I actually, I made a mistake before. I said that the woman does not ask God to respond. She does-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the very last verse, though.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: "Let all their evil doing come before you, and deal with them as you have dealt with me-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... uh, because of all my transgressions. For my groans are many, and my heart is faint." So the, the last lines of Lady Jerusalem is calling God to respond and to do something to those who have been so cruel to her.
David: It is interesting that instead of, like in some other places in the Bible, uh, God is not being asked to do something to Israel's enemies greater than or, uh, different than-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're being treated.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're like, "You should treat them in like kind as I'm being treated-
Seth: That's right
David: ... 'cause we're all guilty."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Israel's not separating themselves-
Seth: That's right
David: ... from the guilt of the nations. They're like, "If you're going to judge the guilty, judge the guilty-"
Seth: Yeah
David: "... but let it be all of us."
Seth: Yeah, that's a good point. Like, that's something that I hadn't thought about as I was studying it, but it's like, part of Israel's, like, presumption is that they held a special place-
David: Mm
Seth: ... outsi- like, they could act however they wanted, 'cause they were God's chosen people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But here, you have an admission that they are just like everybody else-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... receiving God's justice. And if that's true, then that... Maybe that's their hope. Maybe God's justice is their only hope.
David: It is-
Seth: Like, it's what's destroying them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but maybe it's their only hope, too, 'cause that's how God will judge the nations.
David: It, it reminds me of the Prodigal Son story-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where he finally gets to this place where he's just like everyone else. "Maybe I could just go be a slave. Maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my dad will treat me like he treats the servants in his house."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Good, just, God, could you just treat me like the nations? I know you're kind, and just, and patient, and just judge everyone equally-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I think I'd be better [chuckles] off than I am right now."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, that's really interesting. Okay.
Seth: That's interesting. The Lady Jerusalem's poem ends asking God to do something, and in many lament poems, God will respond, or right? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, in many psalms, like, God will respond. He'll say something, or the poet itself will say, "But I have hope." Uh, that doesn't happen here.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the poem asks God to respond, and God doesn't.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So God is silent to Lady Jerusalem's request, and instead, the poet inserts himself into the l- narrative of Lady Jerusalem. And the next poem is told from the perspective of the poet himself.
David: Oh.
Seth: And what he does in this next poem is he implores Lady Jerusalem to continue to seek God's justice, to continue to pray for God to act, and not just stop seeking him.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, not just wait, like, wallow in her suffering, but continue to seek God. So he agrees with Lady Jerusalem at first. He says, "God has totally destroyed you." He'll use 28 verbs, uh, to describe God's justice against Jerusalem.
David: Mm.
Seth: God will-
David: He's cast you down. He's not remembered you.
Seth: Strip, swallow-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... break, burn, kill, lay waste-
David: Oof
Seth: ... disown, scorn, sink. Like, he is-
David: ... he's s- he's seeing Lady Jerusalem-
Seth: He's, he's-
David: - for what she is.
Seth: He, he-
David: Empath- empathizing, and-
Seth: Yes.
David: Oof.
Seth: And, like, there is a real sense that before this kind of total justice, nothing can be said. Like, the verse 10 of chapter two, after 28 verbs of describing God's justice towards Israel, verse 10, "The elders of the daughter of Zion sit on the ground in silence. They throw dust on their heads and put on sackcloth. The young women of Jerusalem have bowed their heads to the ground." So now the people of Jerusalem are silent. Like, their guilt is so self-evident, God's justice is so total, that there is no response to give to it anymore.
David: Mm.
Seth: And which is fascinating, and then in verse 11, the poet comes back in, responding to the suffering that he sees, and he says this in verse 11, "My eyes are spent with weeping. My stomach churns. My bile is poured out to the ground because of the destruction of the daughter of my people, because infants and babies faint in the streets of the city." So the poet sees woman Jerusalem. He sees God's justice, and it literally makes him vomit.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the poem, he, like, cannot contain how horrifying God's total justice is towards Jerusalem.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like... It's a very visceral moment in the story, and as the story goes on, he continues to k- beg Lady Jerusalem to, like, end that silence in verse 10 and call out to God, if not for herself, then for the sake of her kids. Here's what he s- says in verses 18 and 19. Um, "Arise! Cry out in the night, Lady Jerusalem. At the beginning of the night watches, pour out your heart like water before the presence of the Lord. Lift your hands to Him for the lives of your children, who faint for hunger at the head of every street." I mentioned before how Lady Jerusalem kind of calls God to do something-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then, um, God is silent.
David: Right.
Seth: And the, the poet picks up the call for God to respond, joins Lady Jerusalem's lament, but Lady Jerusalem is silent in response.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the elders don't respond anymore. They're not doing the th- same thing anymore, right? And so they're not calling out to God. They're not continuing their request, their protest for God's justice, and so in light of that, the poet throws up, and he begs them, "Please, continue to cry out to God.-
David: Mm.
Seth: - Please! You... He is your only hope. If He's caused this, He can fix it," and he's saying, "If you don't do it for your own sake, do it for your children's sake, Lady Jerusalem." And then in verse 20, I think Lady Jerusalem finally responds.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: She says-
David: Responds to the poet.
Seth: The poet saying, "Hey-
David: "Hey, come on."
Seth: - keep calling out to God. Look, O Lord, and see. With whom have you dealt like this? Should women eat the fruit of their womb, the children of their tender care?"
David: Gosh.
Seth: "Should priests and prophets be killed in the sanctuary of the Lord, in the dust of the street, like the young and the old? Young women and m- men have fallen by the sword. You summoned, as if to a festival day, my terrors on every side. On the day of the anger of the Lord, no one has escaped or survived. Those whom I held and raised, my enemy destroyed." What's interesting here is, like, the woman hasn't developed her cry. She just keeps saying, "God, look-
David: Mm.
Seth: "God, look at what's happening in Jerusalem," right?
David: So the poet begs the woman to keep protesting in her laments to God, but she doesn't move any further into how she wails or how she wallows. She just keeps on describing, with great pain-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the reality of her situation, all the way to talking about eating her own kids.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's, it's like, "God, really? Like, are you gonna let us come to this? Is this what the world you want for us?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But it's not... She hasn't developed her lament any further theologically-
Seth: That's right
David: ... or she's not moving on towards, "Never mind, God will be faithful."
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, it's just still-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... really intense.
Seth: That's right, and I think the purpose of the first two chapters of the book of Lamentations, as I said before, it's a chiasm, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: The first two chapters set up the solution offered in the third paragraph, in the third poem. So the first two are meant to make us look and see at the suffering of Jerusalem. It's, it's trying to lay out, as starkly as possible, the guilt of Israel and the devastation of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and ki- and the non-response of God. Like, God isn't saying anything-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and all that they have right now is this absolute terror and despair.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I think, I think that's... I think we've communicated the main point. The point of the first two is just to get lost in the devastation of the covenant curses God has brought on Israel.
David: So, uh, uh, well, another way to say that, that's interesting, is we come into the first poem, and we're thrown into one of the worst situations, you know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in the Bible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in human history, just this horrific suffering that people are going through, and you have this woman who was betrothed to God, had covenant promises with God, crying out to Him, saying, "Look at me. I've been stripped naked in the street and derided. Look!" No answer.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So the poet, almost breaking the fourth wall, comes in, and is like, "Let me take up the cry.-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: - This is really, really bad. Oh, Lady Jerusalem, O elders of Israel, don't stop crying out," and when they finally do cry out again, it's the same thing. "It's so bad. It hurts.-
Seth: Mm.
David: - God, look."
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's just trying to get us to see how desperate the situation is and how silent God must seem-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to these people.
Seth: Yes, that's exactly right. Also, there is something about looking and seeing. I think we've been communicating looking and seeing as a very bleak prayer. [chuckles]
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, so it's a very... Like, it's not a great prayer. "God, look." [chuckles]
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: But it's, it's, it's a wallowing we've talked about, but there is something hopeful-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the look, in see language. It-... it's actually goes all the way back to the Book of Exodus.
David: Oh, wow. Okay.
Seth: When Israel is enslaved to Egypt, they're suffering under Pharaoh. We don't have any records of the prayers of the people that-
David: But, man, they probably sounded a lot like this?
Seth: We- we're told that-
David: [exhales]
Seth: ... the cry went up to the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then we're told this, that the Lord saw-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and determined to do something.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there is this redemptive theme within the Bible, that when God sees the suffering of his people, he responds.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There is a sense that it's a deficient call to God. Like, there should be more faith in this moment of the story, but it's also an appropriate call to God. Like-
David: And it's enough.
Seth: And it's enough.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God will see my suffering, and he will respond.
David: They- she is calling out to a God who sees-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a God who hears cries-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a God who sees suffering, and a God who has historically responded to it with mercy and power.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, yeah, there is a lot more to this call of, "See, look," than just, "Look at me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Just wallow with me. Would you just deign to glance at me?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: She's calling upon the God who sees and acts.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There is faith in it.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: That's cool.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's good to, that's good to distinguish.
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so third poem, center poem.
Seth: Center poem. Um, the woman has finally admitted, like said, has told God to look at her one more time.
David: Mm.
Seth: And now the author personifies himself as Israel. So we had Jerusalem personified as a woman, the author, the poet coming in and speaking to Jer- Lady Jerusalem, and now the poet himself personifies Israel on his own.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The first verse, "I am the man who has seen affliction under the rod of his wrath. God has driven me and brought me into darkness without any light. Surely against me, he turns his hand again and again the whole day long."
David: Mm.
Seth: He begins to personally appropriate and talk through the suffering he's experiencing at God's hand in Jerusalem-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in its siege by Babylon. And the author will continue in the same vein that Lady Jerusalem and the poet has before. He continues to talk about how God has been a cruel shepherd to him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who he has turned his rod of protection into a weapon, how God's broken his bones and flayed his skin. Um, at one point, he, he compares God to a predator that he's, like, been stalked and mangled by. Like, he's... Again, this is that protest language.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, "Do you see what's happened to me, God? Babylon has come, and you sent them, right? And through those agents, you have mangled me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he is, um, very starkly laying out the problem for God to solve.
David: It's all proving the same point, [clears throat] but it bears noticing that
David: he, he's just doing something very interesting literarily here as a storyteller and a poet. He's saying... Uh, 'cause it's the same person writing all of this.
Seth: Right. That's right.
David: And he puts himself into it, but he begins saying, "Look at Lady Jerusalem. Look at her."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Like, "Let's personify her. Oh, hold on, this is so bad, I'm gonna enter the story, 'cause I don't think she's gonna be able to keep on mourning without me." So he goes into the story. "Lady Jerusalem, keep wailing, keep petitioning-
Seth: Mm
David: ... keep asking God to see."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then by the third poem, he's fully entered in, and he's like, "Now I can't help but sound like Lady Jerusalem-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because the pain is so gigantic and crushing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that I tried to do it from the outside, I tried to come alongside, but now that I'm inside, I see there is no other way to navigate this situation than to lament."
Seth: Yeah. And to enter into it more personally than he has done so before.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The f- in the first poem, he enters into the suffering of Israel as a, as a storyteller.
David: Yes.
Seth: He is Lady Jerusalem.
David: Right.
Seth: In the second, he's a character.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In the third, he's experiencing it himself.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, which is fascinating, and I think it also points to, like, the hope
Seth: that we should have in Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like we, we have a God who's written himself into the story of suffering-
David: That's right
Seth: ... as well, and we'll probably come to that.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's really cool, though.
Seth: A l- a little bit later.
David: Okay.
Seth: A micro hook for later.
David: I was also thinking about this little narrative. You al- it probably also is trying to reflect the varied situations of the exilic and dispersed Israel-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that somewhere on the outside-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and can only think about Israel in that third-person personification mode. Some are nearby or see them as, see themselves as characters in the story, and some are inside of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... actually still in Jerusalem, physically suffering in, in their own way. And so he's, he's also- he's not only stepping deeper into the story, he's also bringing that deep story to bear in every location that the dispersed Israelites are in.
Seth: Yeah. That's good.
David: So it's interesting.
Seth: Yeah. So the poet-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is placing himself in the story of destroyed Jerusalem, recounting how God has hunted him down.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But this same psalmist, the same author, the same poet, also gives us the only bit of hope in the story so far.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it begins in verse 21. Actually, let's begin in verse 19.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says this: "So God, remember my afflictions and my wanderings, the wormwood and the gall. My soul continually remembers it and is bowed down within me. But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. 'The Lord is my portion,' says my soul, 'therefore I will hope in him.' The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him. It is good that one should wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord. It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth." I think that means the yoke of suffering or the yoke of punishment.
David: Whenever he can actually stand up under it.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.... Let him sit alone in silence when it is laid upon him. Let him put his mouth in the dust. There may he yet hope. Let him give his cheek to the one who strikes, and let him be filled with insults, because the Lord will not cast off forever. But though he cause grief, God will have compassion, according to the abundance of his steadfast love, for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men. So the poet has laid out, as starkly as he can, the suffering that Jerusalem is experiencing by God's hand. God has been faithful to execute, encyclopedically, from A to Z, all the covenant curses. But if God has been faithful to do that, I have hope.
David: Hmm.
Seth: [chuckles] If he's been faithful to judge, he will be faithful to restore, and I think that begins in verse 22, "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end." He's picking up that understanding of who God is from God's name, e- all the way back-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in, uh-
David: Exodus
Seth: ... Exodus 34.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Where God says that his steadfast love, his compassion, his steadfast love will never end. It extends for thousands of generations. He's saying like, "Okay, I know that I'm receiving what I should be."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "You're being just. You said you would not pardon the guilty, but you said you were a thousand times more compassionate-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... than you were just, and I know that that's what's h- going on here." That's what he's saying. Does that make sense?
David: It does make sense. Um, I think I'm... There's two things going on that we're saying, and they, they're, they're not in competition with each other. I just wanna point them out. One, is we're saying that the poet has hope because if God has been faithful to judge based on his covenant, he will be faithful to have mercy based on the same covenant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He is faithful in both situations.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's the one thing we're saying?
Seth: That's right.
David: The other thing we're saying is the poet has hope because he knows who God is.
Seth: That's right.
David: That his-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he has boundless, endless, steadfast love that overshadows his momentary judgment.
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's banking on God's faithfulness to the covenant-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and God's character of love are the two things-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that are
David: in concert together, giving him hope.
Seth: His faithfulness to the covenant, and maybe even more specifically, his name. Like, that, that-
David: Yeah, God's name.
Seth: The name.
David: I know your name.
Seth: I know your name.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think it's... That's really important to think about because the poet in Lamentations is in a very similar situation to the slaves that were just liberated from Exodus were. In the poet's day, there is nothing left in Israel, right? There's no kings, there's no-
David: Yep
Seth: ... priests, there's no temple. They don't have land anymore. There's nothing to prove God's ongoing care. There's nothing to prove that the covenant is still active, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: The only thing that he can do in that situation is to go back to before Israel was a nation.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Back to when there were no priests, back to when there was no temple, back to when there was no land, and back to when Israel was just a bunch of ex-slaves huddled under a mountain.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what did God say to that bunch of ex-slaves under the mountain? "I am compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and mercy, who gives grace to thousands of generations." He's like: "Hey, I'm in that same position, God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I'm... There's nothing to prove that I'm part of your covenant people right now-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the only thing I can go back on is your name. That's what you gave my ancestors before you gave them a covenant, before you gave them a land."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "So that's what I have now."
David: It's so good to name. We, we mentioned this in the last episode about, um, the assumptions we bring to the Bible and to questions of suffering, about who God is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, you know, we talked about Job brings the assumption of God's a mechanistic, reciprocating machine-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that just, like, y- you put bad in, you get bad out.
Seth: Yep.
David: You are suffering because you did wrong. That's an assumption that Job's friends made about God, and that's because Job is trying to answer the question of an innocent sufferer. Like, what happens when the innocent suffer? Like, oh, they, they think that he did something wrong-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to deserve it. But what happens when the guilty suffer?
Seth: Mm.
David: The assumption we bring when we know we're guilty, when we're feeling a lot of shame, when we know we messed up-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we're suffering because of it, the assumption we bring about God is, "Yep, God's got my number, and he's gonna call it, and I'm gonna pay for every wrong thing I did, and he'll never accept me, he'll never love me totally, he'll never f- completely forgive me."
Seth: I'll always be on the outside.
David: Always be on the outside.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think it's astonishing that in the middle of the most
David: unarguable situation of, "God doesn't like you" [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... being the destruction of the temple and the suffering of Jerusalem, this poet remembered the real identity of God. He remembered that God is so much more loving and gracious and merciful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... than his situation lets on.
Seth: He... I mean, verse 33, "He does not afflict from his heart."
David: Yeah. He remembers the core of God's heart.
Seth: Yeah, God's heart is not primarily justice or wrath-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or anger-
David: Yep
Seth: ... or retribution.
David: He, he does those things.
Seth: He does those things.
David: Yep.
Seth: But that is not the core of who he is.
David: Right.
Seth: God is love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God is love.
David: Mm. It's just amazing that to, to shine that out in the middle of this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: [chuckles] very dark book.
Seth: Super dark book, but in the middle of all the suffering, in the middle of all our guilt, God is more love-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... than he is justice. [chuckles] Uh, if, if, if that's okay to say it that way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like, that's the hope we have.
David: Mm.
Seth: Therefore, I have hope.
David: Therefore, I have hope.
Seth: That's who God is.
David: Because I know who God is.
Seth: And now, the rest of the book tests that assumption.
David: Can that assumption get me through the rest of this meditation?
Seth: That's right. And what you'll notice as you continue to read through the book is more of the same-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a lot of senses. In the f- the, the back half of chapter three-... you'll continue to see the psalmist in his, like, protest mode. "I've been hunted by a bird of prey, by enemies without cause. I," like, "I am lost," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, he will continue to ask God to repay them for their evil.
David: Mm.
Seth: So he says this in verse, verses 61 and on, "You've heard their taunts," Babylon's taunts, "O Lord, all their plots against me. The lips and thoughts of my assailants are against me all the day long. Behold, they're sitting, and they're rising. I'm an object of their taunts. But you will repay them, O Lord, according to the works of their hands. You will give them dullness of heart. Your curse will be on them, and you will pursue them in anger and destroy them from under your heavens, O Lord." So he, he is continuing in that ve- same vein as Lady Jerusalem was in the beginning. He still has hope that God's justice, his restoration, will come to bear. So, so far, by the end of chapter three, it seems as if, if God is love, and he's on the side of his people, that gives me energy to continue the prayer of good, just retribution.
David: Mm, I see, because not only... We've, we've said it this way, we've said, because God's been faithful to judge Israel, he will be faithful to save Israel. But also, what you're saying here, Lady Jerusalem's prayer at the end of the first poem-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the poet's prayer at the end of the third poem are both saying something slightly different. If God has been faithful to bring justice to the sins of Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he will also be faithful to bring justice to the sins of the nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That we will eventually be liberated from evil Babylon, because God judges wickedness.
Seth: That's right.
David: He's judged our wickedness. We've been wicked. We admit it, and look how thoroughly he's judged us. Now, God, treat them the same way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And in so doing, you will free us.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, I'm following.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then the fourth poem begins.
David: Okay, fourth poem.
Seth: Coming out of the chiasm-
David: Or the middle of the chiasm
Seth: ... continuing to test, is God is love [laughs] sufficient for my suffering?
David: What a question.
Seth: Um-
David: That's a question-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... everybody is gonna have to wrestle with in their whole life.
Seth: Yes.
David: All right.
Seth: In chapter four, we'll kind of detail a lot of the ways that Israel's leadership failed Israel, and they were the cause of Israel's fall from grace, and their disobedience, and the cause of their suffering.
David: Mm, which we also get in its mirrored poem, number two, when he calls on the elders of Jerusalem to continue to protest. They've given up, and so now we're getting more about the elders and the leadership in this mirrored part of the chiasm in poem four.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's good.
David: I follow.
Seth: And continuing to describe the devastation that God had to bring in response to the, the leaders' sin.
David: I see.
Seth: Right, yes.
David: He's showing the, the tit for tat. He's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... we deserve this.
Seth: We deserve this.
David: Okay.
Seth: But we also get s- some really interesting verses. In verse 11, we, we hear this, in chapter four, "The Lord gave full vent to his wrath. He poured out his hot anger, and he kindled a fire in Zion that consumed its foundations." And then again, in verse 22, we get, "The punishment of your iniquity, O daughter of Zion, is accomplished."
David: Mm.
Seth: So we have these two statements in this poem that say that Israel's punishment is over.
David: It's been executed.
Seth: It's been executed.
David: Yeah, you can't commit capital punishment twice. Like, you put a man to death, you can't put him to death again.
Seth: Yeah, you can't die twice.
David: The punishment is done.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so you're saying that in poem four-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... there seems to be this conclusion to the wrath. It has been accomplished.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, the punishment is done.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is- which ties into the identity, the, of God, the name of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There is a limited time span to his justice, his wrath-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and an infinite time span for his mercy.
Seth: That's right.
David: A thousand generations of mercy and love-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... three, four generations of justice and wrath.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay?
Seth: Yeah, and it is hope, but it's a pretty severe hope.
David: That's a pretty severe hope.
Seth: "Hey, the good news is, you won't get judged anymore." It's like-
David: Yeah, it's like telling a man who just went to death row-
Seth: Right [laughs]
David: ... "Hey, good news, you're dead."
Seth: Yeah, or maybe-
David: It's over [laughs]
Seth: ... something a little bit like a life sentence might even be helpful here. It's like, "Okay, your life sentence has begun."
David: Punishment over.
Seth: Punishment over.
David: It's been decided what your punishment will be, and it's started.
Seth: It's started.
David: It's 70 years.
Seth: It's se- like, right. It's like, there is, like... Okay, there is a finitude to that.
David: Yep.
Seth: There is a c- a constraint to that.
David: It is a mercy, in a sense.
Seth: It is a mercy. I won't get more of the same.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: But it's-
David: It's a severe mercy.
Seth: It's a severe mercy.
David: God.
Seth: It's a very severe mercy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But again, uh, Lamentations 4 ends with that same hope. At the end of this poem, he ends the same way that he ended previously, by calling for the judgment of the nations. "The punishment of your iniquity, O daughter of Zion, is accomplished. He will keep you in exile no longer. But your iniquity, O daughter of Edom, he will punish. He will uncover your sins."
David: Mm.
Seth: So for the ways that their captors and oppressors have brought about God's justice in the siege of Jerusalem, they will be repaid. It's the, it's the same thing that's been happening-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... multiple times.
David: And it's interesting here that he, he talks about daughter Zion and daughter Edom.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Daughter Zion is obviously-
Seth: True
David: ... the Israelites-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the true Israelites. Uh, he's saying their punishment is over. Babylon's work is done. The temple is destroyed, and I'm gonna bring you back out of exile. But for the daughter of Edom, which Edom was the nation that Esau founded-
Seth: That's right
David: ... um, but it has, it also sounds like Adam, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, even in Obadiah, there's this double entendre happening with the nation of Edom-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and the nations of Adam.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's saying, "All nations who opportunistically have hurt my people-"
Seth: Mm.
David: ... just like Edom actually did historically-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "I will judge you, too."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, so again, w- he's saying, "God, you've been faithful to judge us and accomplish your punishment against us."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Now, be faithful to punish the nations, like you punished the nation of Edom."
Seth: That's right.
David: So he's, all this is collapsing-
Seth: Yes
David: ... on this meeting. Okay.
Seth: Now, what's interesting about this poem, before we go to the last one, is so far, it's the shortest in the series.
David: Okay.
Seth: So this one is still an alphabet, still an acrostic, but it's only two lines per letter rather than the normal three.
David: Mm.
Seth: So something's happening structurally to the poems, and we suggested beforehand that this means that-... the craft of the author is dissolving-
David: Mm
Seth: ... somewhat. Like, there's this severe mercy. Your judgment's over, and based on that judgment, you can hope that God will judge the rest of the world. So the question is, is the solution working? Is God is love solving the problem of Israel suffering and the long time it will take-
David: Right
Seth: ... for their justice to come? When is Edom gonna get judged?
David: That's right.
Seth: How long is that gonna take, God?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think the answer is like, okay, it's probably gonna be fine, but there is something disquieting about the fact that the p- the structure that we've become a- accustomed to is dissolving.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I think this is, like, a very interpretive question. Like, I think you could probably take 100 different perspectives on what's happening in this moment, and I think I would like to say that maybe the poem is suggesting that God is love is not enough yet. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the structure, the acrostic, isn't doing it. However, the themes
Seth: make me think that maybe it is enough, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: I m- well, I think, yeah, it does make sense. I think maybe what you're saying, to try to put a fine point on it, or maybe this is just one of my... of the other 100 perspectives, [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the truth is enough.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I- in trying to live out that truth, y- you, you break down after a while, 'cause it's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just a lot-
Seth: Right
David: ... to try to have faith in, "I know God is love, I know his steadfast love endures forever, but the rest of my life is gonna be suffering and pain."
Seth: The rubble's still burning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And I think it'll get me through to the end, but just barely" [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: ... is what it feels like.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's still true, but it puts just enough gas in my tank where I, I get home on fumes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is what it feels like.
Seth: Yeah, and I think probably this conversation we're trying to have right now is probably part of the point of the poem as well.
David: It's supposed to get you to reflect on these questions.
Seth: These are the questions you're supposed to ask.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, is that, is that a good enough answer?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is God's love and his future justice a good enough answer?
David: Interesting.
Seth: Um-
David: So wait, maybe what every- what it's asking everyone to do is, ask yourself the question, you, you believe God is love, is that enough for you to live the rest of your life if it was full of suffering?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Would you still believe that at the end?
Seth: Yeah, if your oppressor doesn't get his due until after you're already gone-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that good?
David: Right.
Seth: Or is God still good to you-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in that, in that, in that space?
David: The poem is breaking down to try to lead you to have a similar breakdown and come to your own answer. [chuckles]
Seth: I think we said in the first episode that the, the Book of Lamentations is, is a furnace, and wants to put your faith in God in the furnace.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I- in the furnace of human suffering, and ask, will it survive?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Will it be refined into silver or gold?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or will it burn up?
David: And this is th- one of the poet's ways of getting you to throw your faith in the fire-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and test it. [gentle music]
Seth: In the final stanza, the final poem itself, the fifth poem, is the shortest of all of them.
David: Mm.
Seth: That, that disintegration continues, and it's not even-
David: An acrostic anymore
Seth: ... There's 22 verses for each letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but there's no combining, f- like, s- synthetic force holding it together.
David: Yeah, it's like the poet doesn't have the breath to continue or the presence of mind to keep up his style.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's all breaking down.
Seth: And the, the hope is much less. So let me just read a selection.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Remember, O Lord, what has befallen us. Look, and see our disgrace!" We've heard that before.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Our inheritance has been turned over to strangers, our homes to foreigners. We have become orphans, fatherless; our mothers are like widows. We must pay for the water we drink; the wood we get must be bought. Our pursuers are at our necks; we are weary, we are given no rest. We have given the hand to Egypt and to Assyria to get bread enough. Our fathers sinned and are no more, and we bear their iniquities." The pace of the poem's also speeding up.
David: Yes.
Seth: Almost as if real life is, like, happening again. Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, and it's, it... There, there's very little, uh, imagery here.
Seth: Nope.
David: It's just like he's turned into a reporter.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Look, our- we have to buy water, we've gotta buy bread." Yeah, he's ju- he's just reporting on the facts. It's, it's just less poetic.
Seth: It's less poetic.
David: And it's way more rapid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's like a... Like, when you're out of breath, and you're running out of steam, and you're trying to communicate something, it's like in between pants, you get out the-
Seth: The, the bare-
David: ... the bare minimum details, and that's what this feels like poetically.
Seth: Uh, verse 15 says, "The joy of our hearts has ceased; our dancing has been turned to mourning. The crown has fallen from our head. Woe to us, for we have sinned! For this our heart has become sick, for these things our eyes have grown dim. For Mount Zion, which lies desolate, uh, jackals prowl over it."
David: Gosh.
Seth: Like, there's like this... As much hope has been offered, God is love. If He's been faithful to judge, He'll be faithful to restore. Justice is coming to our enemies. You still get that sense that, like, our current situation has no quick resolution.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Zion lies desolate. Jackals are living in it. If we, if we started rebuilding today, it would be decades-
David: Mm
Seth: ... before the city is rebuilt, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But we get another glimpse of hope in the book at the very end. This kind of terrifying, "Mount Zion is desolate, but you, O Lord, reign forever; your throne endures to all generations." So this is another exclamation of faith. God, okay, you reign forever, even if Jerusalem does not. "So why do you forget us forever?" [chuckles] And then it re- disso- dissolves again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Why do you forget us forever? Why do you forsake us for so many days?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is the thing that we've been talking about.
David: Right.
Seth: Is God is love and His coming justice enough-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to, to be forsaken for so many days?
David: Yeah.
Seth: 70 years.
David: It's a part of the protest.
Seth: That's right.
David: Why are you doing this, God?
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the final request, "Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may be restored! Renew our days as of old, unless you have utterly rejected us, and you remain exceedingly angry." Which is, you're like, "Oh!"... I, I was expecting like, "Oh, renew our days!"
David: Yes-
Seth: As of old.
David: Period. Amen.
Seth: Unless-
David: Unless-
Seth: You have utterly rejected us, and you remain exceedingly angry.
David: He just ends with the tension.
Seth: He ends with that tension.
David: Ends with both sides of the problem.
Seth: Yeah, some commentators have suggested that the Lamentations ends in an incomplete sentence.
David: Right. Uh-
Seth: That ellipsis at the end, "Unless you're angry with us?"
David: Dot, dot, dot.
Seth: Are you? Are you not? What is your current relationship to us?
David: Yeah, like, like, like a cliffhanger.
Seth: Yes.
David: Unless, dot, dot, dot.
Seth: Yes.
David: Wait, unless what?
Seth: Unless what?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Oh, I forgot to mention something-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... at the top of that chapter. The last chapter is the only communal chapter in the entire book.
David: What do you mean by that?
Seth: It's the whole nation of Israel responds. It's all plural verbs. It's-
David: Ah, we've had individuals or personifications of the corporate-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in an individual-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but not plurals.
Seth: Right, and if you remember, Lady Jerusalem couldn't really rouse herself to say much.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The, the poet kept pulling responses out of her, trying to pull responses out of her. There is a sense in which that this is the poet having done his job, right. Jerusalem is now responding.
David: Oh, I understand.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: So these are the prayers of Jerusalem.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Lady Jerusalem is finally responding.
David: The most basic, reluctant, quick prayers.
Seth: Yes.
David: But they're there nonetheless.
Seth: They're there nonetheless. But there's more content than there ever has been.
David: Yes.
Seth: So maybe there is progress for Lady Jerusalem.
David: I see.
Seth: She's admitting, uh, her sins, she's naming the problems for what it is, and she's expressing hope in God. "You reign forever-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you might restore us, unless you're still angry with us, that is."
David: Hmm. So why does the poet end his masterpiece with the possibly ellipsed question at the end, like, "Oh, restore us to yourself, God, that we may be restored like days of old... unless you're gonna be angry with us forever. Bye."
Seth: Um, I think it's to highlight the fact that still God has not spoken.
David: Ah. The question gets the last word.
Seth: Right. What is God's response to this suffering?
David: Right, we don't know.
Seth: We don't know.
David: We have an idea. We've named what we believe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but th- there's no been no manifestation of that reality.
Seth: God has not spoken.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's a deafening silence.
David: Hmm.
Seth: If you're Israel, God's chosen people, the recipient of all the blessings and all the goodness that the priests and the temple and everything was, has finally fallen, you would hope that God would come to you in your suffering-
David: Right
Seth: ... but God says nothing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so there's this gap. It's like, "I believe you reign forever, Lord, but your non-communication makes me think that you might have utterly rejected us."
David: Yeah. I mean, that is a constant reality for most people to some degree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You're like, "Oh, God, I know you speak, I just don't feel you speaking to me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: God, I know you're good, but I'm just not experiencing your goodness. God, I know you want me to have my necessities in life, but I'm really struggling to meet the end-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... every month. And the, the reality of lived experience and the knowledge of God don't always match perfectly. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, and I also think it's interesting to think about Lamentations in conversation with Job.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Job gets an answer from God.
David: He does.
Seth: La-
David: A very loud one.
Seth: A very loud one, but Lamentations doesn't.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And I'm gonna hazard a guess as to why.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think it's because if God was to say something to a clearly guilty people, what could God's people say in response?
David: Hmm.
Seth: If God said, "This is right,
Seth: you should be experiencing this."
David: Right, what-
Seth: What recourse would God's people have?
David: To just say what they've been saying.
Seth: What they... Right, like, if God responds with an explanation for their suffering or any... Like, if he responds in this moment, like, it actually just undercuts all of the lament-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... all the dignity that has been afforded by the beauty of the poetry-
David: Right
Seth: ... to their suffering. Like, if God responds and gives an answer in this moment, I think it actually harms what [chuckles] the po- the, the, the people of Israel have been trying to do for the poem so far. Does that make s-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: God's, God's silence isn't, uh, to show that he's uncaring
David: that the people are suffering. God's silence honors it by letting it stand as true, as painful-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as real, and he doesn't try to sugarcoat it-
Seth: Right
David: ... undercut it, or s- explain it away. He's- his silence is him saying, "Yes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're right. You sinned, and this is hard."
Seth: Another way to say this is, like, what's the most famous part of the Book of Job?
David: When God shows up.
Seth: Right. So if God doesn't show up, what's the emphasis now in the Book of Lamentations?
David: That he... Oh, that the, uh, that the people are suffering?
Seth: That's right. If God was to show up at the beginning of the Book of Lamentations, all we would remember is God's explanation.
David: Ah.
Seth: But if he doesn't show up, g- the wor- the suffering of his people is what is remembered.
David: Yes, his silence gives the greatest credence and the pride of place to the suffering that his people are going through.
Seth: That's right.
David: Oof.
Seth: Like, he gives dignity to that suffering in a way that speaking could not have accomplished.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think he's done something more significant than responding to the, the pleas of the poet.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He's included lamentation in his word.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He'd, he'd actually dignifies the suffering of his people to make the s- the words of his suffering people his own words, right? Like-
David: Oh, man, yeah. Uh, if I was God, and someone wrote a book about how much I hurt them-
Seth: [chuckles] Right, yeah
David: ... and how I'm, how-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they really want me to pay attention, and how they wish I would do something, I would probably be like, "Hey, guys, can we talk about this? Maybe not include it in, uh, my master works collection." [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: But God does not do that.
Seth: That's right.... That's right.
David: That's amazing.
Seth: God makes his people's laments his own laments.
David: Mm.
Seth: And his people's deepest sorrows become his own.
David: Wow.
Seth: The cries of agony and despair and questioning that Lamentation records are now the agonies, despairs, and questions of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is exactly what happens in the life of Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Jesus is the Word of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is a man of sorrows-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who carries in his body the very curse of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Cursed is any man who hangs on a tree."
David: Right.
Seth: Right? He embodies. So God is silent in Lamentations, yes, but he makes the suffering of his people his word, and then he takes his word and makes it flesh.
David: Wow.
Seth: And he dies on the cross and resurrects to prove what? That suffering is not the final word.
David: Yes.
Seth: That his mercies are new every morning.
David: Mm.
Seth: God will be just.
David: Mm.
Seth: And people can hope in that even when they will die before they will see the restitution they hope for.
David: Yeah. Gosh, that's so good. What a comfort.
Seth: What... Right? [chuckles]
David: Yeah. And at least I hope it is for any- everyone listening, but, and it's, it's again, it's that thing you have to hold on to. It's the, it's the center of the chiasm of your life, is the story of the gospel, the steadfast love put on display in the cross of Jesus, that it should be, and is enough, to sustain you through a life of suffering because you've seen the word made flesh and suffer.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, that's really powerful. Can I point out something else I've been thinking about?
Seth: Yeah.
David: With how to see Jesus in Lamentations. You know, this is all based around the destruction of the temple.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This cataclysmic event in Israel's history, where God's house is destroyed, communion with God is destroyed, like, access to God is destroyed, and they've been cut off utterly from it. This very cataclysmic event. Temple is destroyed, let us lament. Well, when Jesus comes, he offers laments-
Seth: Mm
David: ... about Jerusalem. "O Jerusalem, how I would long to, you know, tuck you up under my wings like a mother hen."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and he also offers these prophetic pronouncements that sound like prophetic laments about the destruction of the, of, of the temple. It's, it's going to fall, it's going... It, you know, a- and he, he... And so it's interesting, though, that in Jesus's life, he doesn't come and bring Babylonian-like destruction to the physical temple again.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Instead, when he fulfills the laments that he's been saying about the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, it's his own body that he's talking about.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And the laments of Jesus, uh, yes, they are fulfilled in the destruction, the final destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but they're also fulfilled in his own death.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so, in a way, Jesus, in a, in a different way, so very similar to what you were saying, Jesus fulfills all the laments-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, in Lamentations-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the people are saying, "Look how we've suffered. Look how terrible it is. This is because of our sin."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Jesus goes to the cross and says, "Look how terrible it is."
Seth: Mm.
David: "Look how horrible the suffering is in my body on the cross, and it is because of your sin." And we talked about how, in confession-
Seth: Yes
David: ... we-
Seth: Yes
David: ... have access to the mercy of God, even in exile, and even in the midst of punishment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, now, instead of confessing our sins that led to Israel's destruction, w- we confess our sins that led to Jesus's destruction, and we say we confess that our sins-
Seth: Right. That's right. That's right
David: ... that God's wrath has been fully vented.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That the punishment is done.
Seth: Yes.
David: That sentence has been served, and it was served by Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: That's good
David: ... we confess, "Yeah, that was my sin," and that is how we then participate in the rescue from exile, the rescue from punishment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is we say, "The wrath of God has been fully vented, and that was because of my sin."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that confession leads to
David: God coming back to us and being merciful to us-
Seth: Yeah, that's right
David: ... and being gracious to us and having an eternal, steadfast love that never ends.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think the last... the thing we should end on here, then, is say, okay, so we've said that we have this partial answer to the problem of Jerusalem's suffering. Like, God is love.
David: Mm.
Seth: He will repay. He makes the suffering of his people his own words.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then his word becomes flesh.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, he embodies the suffering of his people to put an end to their sin and join him in that resurrection. Beautiful news, and better news than I think what they had in the, in the first covenant, in that space between those two covenant, like, right? The space between the curses and the restoration.
David: Mm.
Seth: But it doesn't really fundamentally change my posture in a world full of suffering.
David: Right.
Seth: Man, I can rehearse and remember that Jesus has died and resurrected, which means I know I'll die and resurrect too.
David: Right.
Seth: But that does not give me any timeline for when that will occur-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or any guarantee my suffering won't last a long time.
David: That's right, that the 70 years of your life won't be full of suffering.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the question, the book of Lamentations, even, like, I, I think Jesus is a great comfort to us in our suffering-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and a better comfort than offered by the Old Testament. However, it is not a complete comfort in that it doesn't answer all the questions.
David: Right.
Seth: Why is it taking so long? Why does it feel like you've forgotten me?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why am I still suffering-
David: Mm
Seth: ... even though my sins have been paid for, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, uh, so I say that because I think what Lamentations and the suffering of Jesus, the laments of Jesus, want us to do is to continue to throw our faith in God in the fire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we have to continue to throw our faith in God next to the reality of brutal suffering and continue to ask, "Is God good when I'm suffering or people around me are suffering?" And I think the answer is yes, because God became human-
David: Right [chuckles]
Seth: ... died, and resurrected. I think that means he's good.
David: Yep.
Seth: ... that doesn't mean I have any answer for why things are going wrong, though.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right?
David: Can I ask you this question, maybe to close it down? W- knowing all of that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and knowing that our, our lived reality will be throwing our faith into the fire- [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, what role do you think lamenting should play in our lives today?
Seth: Man, I w- I, I wish our churches would regain a better, like, songbook of laments.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I think it would be amazing to spend more time in our churches publicly lamenting, asking God to do- to change the world the way that it is.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But, I mean, that's a, that's a structural, a church-wide thing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that we should be doing.
David: Maybe me, personally-
Seth: Me, personally
David: ... how can I use even a third-
Seth: Uh
David: ... of the Psalter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to lament well when things are bad?
Seth: I mean, I-
David: 'Cause I think I've been... I don't know, I just feel like I've been told to pray the, the good ones.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "Oh, God," you know, like, rejoice in your suffering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, when you suffer, uh, you should sing in prison, 'cause that's what the apostles did.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: Right.
David: And-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... I don't think I've been given permission to complain-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... protest-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... beg, tell God to look and see.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What do I do with that?
Seth: Man, I think you've already named it. Give yourself permission to lament, and then if you're scared about being that honest with God, d- don't stray too far from what the Bible does. Like, find a, a lament Psalm.
David: Mm.
Seth: Go to Psalm 88, go to a part of the book of Lamentations, and just pray God's o- God's own words-
David: Mm
Seth: ... back to him.
David: You're in good... You're, you're, you're in safe ground to do that.
Seth: Right. It's like, okay, Lamen- Lamentations 2, "She weeps bitterly in the night with tears on her cheeks among all her lovers. She has none to comfort her. All her friends have dealt treacherously with her"-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "they have become her enemies."
David: God, I...
Seth: I weep bitterly every night. Tears are on my cheeks. All, like, all the people I've loved have left me. I have no one to comfort me. Like-
David: That's a good prayer.
Seth: That's a good prayer.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then, what does the poet do? So, God, look at me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, look and see my suffering.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Oh, Lord, behold my affliction, for my enemies have triumphed. Uh, look, O Lord, and see, I am despised." Like, those are biblical prayers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that you can put into first person.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I would just say, like, start there. Find... I mean, one-third of the Psalter is lament Psalms. You have the book of Lamentations.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, put those Psalms into your own words, and don't be afraid that you're doing something wrong, because-
David: You're not [chuckles]
Seth: ... the Holy Spirit has inspired other people to do it before you.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God included it in His Word.
Seth: And He included it in His Word.
David: That's good. Uh, and two things happen that we've talked about when you do that. One, you theologize yourself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You put yourself in God's story.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You realize that you're not alone in this, that other people have, have done this, and that God has new mercies for you at the other side.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but then there's also that pastoral therapeutic thing. It's actually really healthy [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to give vent to what's ailing you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To actually just say it out loud, um, to a God who can handle it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's actually really healthy.
Seth: You don't need to pretend your suffering is better than it is with God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you don't need to do that.
David: You can just be yourself with God, and that's really good. Well, that's Lamentations, yeah?
Seth: That's the book of Lamentations.
David: Man, thank you, Seth, and thank you to the theology team, including Christine, uh, here at Spoken Gospel, for getting us ready for this conversation. And thank you all for listening, for going on this journey with us. We hope it's been helpful, and we can't wait to talk to you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]