Seth: [mellow music] And so, like, there is, like, this pastoral or therapeutic reason behind the category of lament. It's that for most people, throughout all time, suffering is the common mode of human existence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Suffering is more common than prosperity.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what do you do with that? You bring it to God.
David: Mm.
Seth: You don't sugarcoat it. You lay it out blankly, you lay it out starkly, you lay it out encyclopedically-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and you demand God to respond.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what you do with your suffering.
Intro: [mellow music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are beginning our look at the book of Lamentations, and we're excited that you're joining us for that. Seth, it feels like a weird question to ask, how are you feeling about Lamentations?
Seth: My feelings have been predetermined by-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the, the-
David: You have to be in-
Seth: -title of the book.
David: You have to be in a s- a feeling of lament-
Seth: A sad-
David: ... sad
Seth: ... lamentable mood.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, actually, though, I'm very excited to talk about the book of Lamentations. It's a fascinating and gorgeous book-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the Bible, and I think it's so gorgeous because it deals with such difficult and hard things. And I just find, generally, in my life, that when I'm forced to f- face the darkest things-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the good things seem better. And I think L- like, Lamentations is a really great case study in that. It, like, dives into the, like, the death of Israel, the death of all God's promises, and really tries to offer hope in the middle of, like, incredible suffering, and pain, and death, and misery. And, um, it's beautiful-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it attempts to do that thing.
David: That's good. I- i- would you say that Lamentations is unique in the Bible for doing that? Is it-
Seth: It is not unique.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Lamentations, uh, is the name of the book, but the category of lament-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, is a very common thing the Bible does. There are more lament songs in the Psalms, the book of Psalms-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... than any other genre of psalms.
David: Really?
Seth: One-third of all the Psalter is lament.
David: That actually surprises me, genuinely.
Seth: Isn't, isn't that fascinating?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Psalm, like, means, like, song, but, like, song of praise, almost, more particularly-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and it's full of laments.
David: Wow. So okay, so you're bringing up this category, then-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes
David: ... of laments, these, the songs. Do they have to be songs? What are they doing? What is this category of Biblical literature?
Seth: Biblical literature, yeah. There are other lament songs-
David: Outside of the Bible
Seth: ... outside of the Bible-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like ancient lament songs, but, like, it is a very well-known category within the Bible itself.
David: Okay, and so help round out that category for us. What is it? What does it look like? What is it doing?
Seth: Yeah, you could probably talk ab- uh, the language you use to describe lament psalms could be various, but, like, maybe j- let's start out with something provocative. It's, it's a, it's a protest song.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's calling to God's attention that the world is not as it should be, and demanding that God bring His kingdom come.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, it's, it's saying, "God, look at the world. This is not how you designed it to be. This is not the way that you want it. I need you to come down and fix it, and bring your saving power to it, or to me," in, in a lot of situations. They're individual songs.
David: That's really interesting to think about as a protest song, bringing God's attention and, like, action to bear upon a situation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think... W- when I think about being surprised by the amount of laments in the Bible, and one-third of the Psalter, my guess at why I was so surprised was because, oh, we don't like to mourn-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we don't like to be sad, so we've overlooked it.
Seth: Mm.
David: Which is probably part of it.
Seth: It's probably part of it.
David: But when I hear this, something else is happening in my heart and brain that goes, "Maybe this is another reason why we've overlooked it, is because this grates against a bit of my theology."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That doesn't God always care about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what's going on?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Does, does He have to be reminded of-
Seth: Yep
David: ... my plight? Does He have to be told the world is broken? Does He have to be reminded that He's good and said He would fix things?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why does this genre exist? Like, it's just breaking-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my theology a little bit.
Seth: Yep.
David: It, it rubs-
Seth: Yep
David: ... against that assumption we have-
Seth: It-
David: ... that God knows, and God's gonna act.
Seth: It also rubs up against, like, our false spirituality.
David: Mm. What do you mean by that?
Seth: We like to clean up our prayers to God.
David: [laughing] No.
Seth: Uh, no, we don't, totally not.
David: [laughing]
Seth: And the lament psalms just put away all pretenses.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And really blankly, they will blame God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, like, one of the features of lament songs is that they blame God for the suffering that they're experiencing. Because God is the cause of their suffering, they expect and demand that God be the solution to their suffering, too.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, y- let me give you an example-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of what I mean by this. So this is Psalm 88.
David: Okay.
Seth: "You have put me in the lowest pit, God."
David: You, God.
Seth: "In the darkest depths, your wrath lies heavily upon me. You have overwhelmed me with all of your waves. You have taken from me my closest friends, and have made me repulsive to them. I am confined and cannot escape. My eyes are dim with grief."
David: Hmm.
Seth: So the psalmist has no problem in attributing the cause of his suffering to God. "You've done it, God." But the next verse, "So-... I call to you, Lord, every day, and I spread out my hands to you. The assumption within the laments is if God causes my suffering, then he can do something to end it.
David: Wow. Yeah.
Seth: And that's, like, the th- driving thrust behind a lot of the laments is like, "I believe God is in control of this suffering, which means he must be in control of my redemption-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or my salvation." And in a lot of cases, that dual belief, that God is the cause of my suffering and the one that can bring me out of it, is like the demand for a theodicy. It's like in a lot of these lament psalms, it demands God make right based on who he said he's been in the past.
David: Mm.
Seth: "You said you're a good God, right, God? Then act like you're a good God in my life." It's demanding that God justify his character to an individual or to a nation, given the suffering that they see around him. Does that make sense?
David: It, it, it makes sense what you're saying. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: But I have questions.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: Um, one question is, does the canonization of laments, meaning does the fact that the laments are in the Bible, justify the theology that wrote them?
Seth: Meaning, like, is the fact that we have this kind of like blank, "Hey, God, you did this to me-"
David: Yes.
Seth: "... you can fix it"?
David: Right.
Seth: And just because are- they're in Scripture, does that mean that's a right way to in- interact with God?
David: That's my question.
Seth: Ah. I think yes. [chuckles]
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: I think yes. Um, we'll get into this next week.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it is very instructive that these songs are recorded as God's words.
David: Mm.
Seth: These very blank, very seemingly accusatory or, like, demanding prayers of suffering people, have been placed as God's Word-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and God has chosen to include them within the canon of Scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think that there is something instructive to learn from their inclusion in our Bibles, and that we should be acting like the psalm, the psalmist and the singers who lament.
David: Yeah. I, I think why that's such a big statement is there's a lot of space inside of the broader theological conversation around suffering-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the problem of pain-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and the theodicy issue, which is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the study of God's justice.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, that would say or that would try to distance God from any causality-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with pain. That it's the fallen world, it's Satan, it's the pervasiveness of sin, it's our own free will unencumbered by God's sovereignty-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that cause these things. So to say that the canonization of this lament means that the theology of-
Seth: Ah
David: ... "God, you caused this"-
Seth: I see what you're saying
David: ... is a pretty gigantic statement.
Seth: Yes. [chuckles] I can, I can see why that is a gigantic statement.
David: Okay.
Seth: I don't... I mean, I've got my own beliefs about how God orchestrates the world, and-
David: Right, and I don't wanna have that discussion here.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I don't think you need to have that discussion about, is God in control of suffering or not?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Here, what we have to do is, if the psalmist doesn't believe God is in control, why is he writing this?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, if we wanna understand what Psalm 88's about, or if we wanna understand what Lamentations 3 is about, and when the poet says something like this: "God has walled me in, and I cannot escape. He has made my chains heavy. Though I call and cry for help, he shuts out my prayer. He has blocked my ways with blocks of stone. He has made my paths crooked. He is a bear. God is a bear-
David: Mm
Seth: ... lying in wait for me. God is a lion in hiding. He's turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces. He has made me desolate."
David: Man.
Seth: I mean, I don't know how... Like, I think if you say, "Well, I wanna distance God from causing suffering-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you're just dismissing [chuckles] the biblical authors at, in their own words.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think you have to deal with how the biblical authors understand their role or, like, God's role in their own suffering.
David: Yeah, and there are different theological schools of thought that, uh, answer that question.
Seth: That's right.
David: But, uh, none of, none of the orthodox ones really say he's completely uninvolved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That would completely rid him of his sovereignty and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... overarching involvement in the world.
Seth: And I think the question about how involved is God in suffering is a little beside the point-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because the purpose of claiming that God is involved in my suffering is the expectation that he can deliver me from it.
David: Yes.
Seth: If God is going to save me, if he is a bear attacking me, then he could also be a mother hen to protect me. Like, he-
David: There's no way a hen could beat a bear.
Seth: Oh, [laughing] unless God's the hen!
David: Unless God's the hen.
Seth: But, like, there's nobody... Like, if God's your enemy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who can save you?
David: That's right. Only God himself.
Seth: That's, that's exactly-
David: That's, that's the implicit thing happening here.
Seth: That's the, that's the implicit thing here.
David: Okay, and I think the other question, which is definitely a leading question, is, is suffering and pain even what Lamentations is about-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or is it about something more than that? 'Cause this feels like I've jumped-
Seth: You-
David: ... quickly into, oh, we're lamenting, things are bad, let's talk about the problem of pain and suffering.
Seth: Yes.
David: But we haven't even gone [chuckles] what's Lamentations-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, totally
David: ... actually talking about. [chuckles]
Seth: So Lamentations is much more, like, historically confined than, like, our philosophical problems-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, with the, the problem of evil. Uh, Lamentations was written in response to the fall of Jerusalem in, uh, 587 or 586 BC.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the poet is reflecting on the fall of Jerusalem, calling God to pay attention to the suffering that's happened, and asking him to notice it, respond, and solve-
David: Right
Seth: ... the suffering that they're in. I mention all those historical things because they're also tied to some, like, covenantal and biblical things-
David: Right
Seth: ... that we also have to talk about.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So...
David: Well, which that makes sense. This is a different kind of conversation than just the philosophical problem of evil, because what we're saying here is, this is God's land-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and this is God's house.... mm-hmm, if it's been destroyed, God must have been involved in it, because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... otherwise, this was never Yahweh's home.
Seth: That's right.
David: It, like, he has to be the protector of it, so God, you did something to remove your protection, or leave-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or make it vulnerable, because this was your house and your land.
Seth: That's right.
David: Which gets to the covenant stuff.
Seth: Which gets to the covenant. Let me say one more thing about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, the problem of evil and how it relates to the Book of Lamentations.
David: Okay.
Seth: I don't think it's wrong to come to the Book of Lamentations looking for answers to that.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because there is a sense that the Bible wants to answer those questions, and Lamentations is part of the biblical answer to it. It's just not what necessarily [chuckles] the book itself wants to communicate to us, but I will say this: Lamentations does something very different than the Book of Job does.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the book of Job, Job is an innocent man.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the whole book is discussing, why is this innocent man suffering?
David: Right.
Seth: Lamentations asks the reverse question.
David: Yes. [chuckles]
Seth: It's like Israel admits they're guilty.
David: They're not innocent.
Seth: They're not innocent. They have suffered greatly, and now they're wondering if God can be merciful.
David: I see. So Job is asking, "Why do the innocent suffer?" Lamentations is asking, "Can the guilty be forgiven-
Seth: That's right
David: ... or be healed?"
Seth: Receive mercy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: That's really helpful.
Seth: You need to understand both those books in context, but the Bible is offering us the two poles-
David: That's right
Seth: ... of the problem of evil.
David: They're talking to each other.
Seth: What happens when the innocent suffer, and are the guilty worthy of receiving God's mercy?
David: Mm.
Seth: Those two things are on the line in both of the books.
David: That's really good. It's also interesting to think about the God behind both of those questions-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the presumptions we bring. Like, Job's friends were like, "Oh, God's me- me- mechanistic and reciprocal, and he's tit for tat."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And if you... You, you're suffering, Job, 'cause you did something wrong."
Seth: That's right.
David: And then to Lamentations, we bring the question of, "Is God really good, and long-suffering, and forgiving? No, he's probably still and always angry at me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I am guilty, and, uh, and I stink, and he's gonna hate me forever."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we bring these two wrong views of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, in our suffering.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and both of these books correct them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in really beautiful ways. That's cool.
Seth: Yes. So what is Lamentations talking about?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Israel has fallen.
David: Right.
Seth: Jerusalem has fallen to Babylon, and to kind of understand why that's such a big deal for a Hebrew person, you have to go all the way back to the book of Deuteronomy.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, back in the... Or really, to the book of Exodus, but back, way back when.
David: Way back when. A long time ago.
Seth: A long time ago in a land far, far away- [chuckles]
David: ... like, God rescued a bunch of slaves from Egypt-
Seth: Yep
David: ... met them on a mountain and said, "I'm gonna deliver you to a land that I have promised your ancestor Abraham. I'm gonna make you a people. I'm gonna give you laws. I'm gonna be with you in that land."
Seth: "I'm gonna be your God."
David: "And I'm gonna be your God. You're gonna be my people," and-
Seth: "I'm the mother hen and the papa bear." [laughing]
David: [chuckles] I still love that image.
Seth: [laughing] The hen being the bear?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um.
David: Yep, so he makes this promise to this people-
Seth: Uh
David: ... about a land and a home.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's gonna have laws. He's gonna have... It's gonna have borders. It, there, it's gonna have a temple. He's gonna live with them.
Seth: That's right, and through this nation, the whole world is going to be blessed and flourish.
David: Yeah.
Seth: However, there's a condition.
David: Mm.
Seth: God says, "Okay, this is what I promise to do for you. However, you must live as if you are my people."
David: That's right.
Seth: "You must obey the laws that I give you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You must, like..." The Ten Commandments being the ones that are most obvious, but also all 613 laws in the Old Testament.
David: Right, " 'Cause if you, if you being my people is going to make the whole world flourish and be blessed, then you have to actually look like me, the ultimate-
Seth: Mm
David: ... blessed one who makes the world flourish."
Seth: That's right.
David: "So you've got to live a certain way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so you can represent me to the whole world."
Seth: That's right, and so here's what Deuteronomy 28 says. It says, "If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth, and all these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God," and then he lists a whole bunch. Uh, "You'll be blessed in the city. You'll be blessed in the field. Your womb will be blessed. Your basket and kneading trough will be blessed. You'll always have bread. You'll always have food. Your... All your women will be fertile. All your enemies will be defeated before you. The Lord will send blessing on your barns and everything in it. You will be the head and not the tail." It's kind of like the climactic one. Like, "In everything, you'll be first."
David: Obey God, be blessed.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then immediately after that, it says, "However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you. You'll be cursed in the country, cursed in the field. Your children will die." And it's, like, three times longer-
David: Wow
Seth: ... than the list of blessings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: An incredible list of, like, really dramatic and scary curses-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if God's people fail to obey. And climactically, it says this in Deuteronomy 28:49, "And the Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand. They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land, and they'll leave nothing for you. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land your God is giving you."
David: So hundreds of years before Lamentations was written, in the covenant promises of God, he said, "I promise you, if you obey me-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you'll be blessed, but if you disobey me, I'm gonna send a, a different foreign nation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to come and bring upon you all these curses."
Seth: That's right. And so for hundreds of years-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Israel operates under this assumption, this blessing and cursing assumption. And, like, centuries and centuries go by-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of, like, this understanding of their relationship with God. Our role in the land is secure. Our preeminence above our enemies will be secure, provided we obey God, but if we stop obeying God-... we'll lose all of this.
David: Right.
Seth: And if you read the book of 1 Kings and 2 Kings, if you read 1 and 2 Chronicles, if you read the prophets, what you'll realize is that basically, since the day that God gave this promise, Israel has been in a centuries-long decline towards the moment Lamentations describes.
David: Mm.
Seth: They have consistently broken God's laws, consistently been idolatrous, consistently killed their own people. Whatever you wanna do, Israel has done it, and by the year 587, God has had enough. And so that's the covenantal backstory [chuckles].
David: And is that the, is that the right way to say it? I just wanna push on that for a second.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That by 587, God's had enough.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, is that the right way to say it? Is that, like, native to something, or is it that God was faithful to His promise to bring the... Like, God decided to not prove Himself a liar-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or did Go- did God run out of patience? Like, I, I just was-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's a really great question, and it kinda gets to p- like, one of the central themes of the Book of Lamentations in general.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is God a vicious bear-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who's fed up with His people, or is He otherwise? Is He merciful? Will He show mercy to us guilty people?
David: Does God have another side? [chuckles]
Seth: Yes. And so before God gave Israel this covenant and set out all the laws and listed all those blessings and curses, He gave Israel His name. He told them what He was like, and He says this about Himself. He says, "I am the Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands and forgiving wickedness, rebellion, and sin." So God front-loads His character with compassion, grace, mercy, love, uh, for thousands of generations, yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished. He punishes the children and their children for their sins, uh, of the parents to the third and fourth generation. And so the comparison there is between mercy that lasts a thousand and justice that lasts three or four.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the idea here, that is, God is far more gracious, asymmetrically gracious-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and compassionate and loving than He is wrathful and just.
David: So that's why for hundreds of years, God responded to Israel's faithlessness with mercy, patience, forgiveness, second chances.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then, but finally He said, "No, for a few generations, we are going to make good on these covenant curses-
Seth: That's right
David: ... because I don't lie."
Seth: I don't lie.
David: "Uh, but I am immeasurably merciful-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but I am also-
Seth: Yes
David: ... just."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: The, uh, the language of, like, God has finally had enough is probably not native to Lamentations, but the prophets will definitely talk that way.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: If you wanna dive into Ezekiel and Jeremiah, like, there is, not in an impatient sort of way, but in a finality sort of way.
David: Yes.
Seth: The bill has come due.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that, that's-
David: Okay
Seth: ... what I mean by that.
David: Helpful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so we have these, these blessings and these curses that have been laid out in the law, and God has been patient through, not literal, but a thousand generations [chuckles] and now the bill has come due, and it's time for Him to not pardon the guilty anymore for a few generations. So He sends in Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, take it down, and that's the situation for Lamentations, or have we skipped other things that we, we, we need?
Seth: That is, that is exactly the situation-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of Lamentations. And in a lot of ways, Lamentations is this exhaustive accounting of the covenant curses described in Deuteronomy 28-
David: Mm
Seth: ... coming true in Israel. La- Lamentations is full of quotations-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... from Deuteronomy 28, and we'll get into this in a second, but, like, every, uh, poem, there's five poems in the book of Lamentations, and they're all acrostics, like an A-to-Z format.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so th- the idea, part of the idea is that the book of Lamentations offers an encyclopedia of God's justice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... against Israel. Everything that God said He would do has been accomplished. Later on in the book, in Lamentations 4, it says God has given full vent to His justice, that Israel's iniquity has, like, been fully judged. Like-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... His justice has been accomplished.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Lamentations is the definitive statement that God's covenant curses have come true.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we're... That's what we're reading in Lamentations, is this accounting.
David: I see.
Seth: This, a divine account, yeah.
David: And what's the point, theologically, for quoting so much of the covenant curses from Deuteronomy here in Lamentations?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, like, are they doing that to prove a theological point, to help make sense of what's happening in Israel, to be masochistic? [chuckles] Like, what's going on?
Seth: I think they're confessing.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, "We are confessing that we have done wrong and that these are the things that we rightly deserve."
David: Mm.
Seth: And, uh, there's multiple times throughout the book of Lamentations where Israel will admit they disregarded God, and they knew this was the consequence, and they did it anyway. Like, Israel knows that they are guilty and admits so over and over again. I think one of the reasons why they, it accounts the suffering so vividly and, like, encyclopedically is because they know that there is no forgiveness without confession.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And so that there is a real... So they need to confess their sins and deal with them. Does that make sense?
David: It makes sense from my understanding.
Seth: Yes.
David: I'm wondering where that l- that thought comes with that, like, from-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for an Israelite. Uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where, is there, is that part of the covenant, that, "If you come back to me and confess your sins, then I'll say, 'Never mind, let's fix this?'" Like, why, uh, w- why is confession part of the lamenting process?
Seth: The covenant actually didn't end. Like, God's covenant promises of blessing and cursings didn't end after God promised to fulfill his covenant curses for their disobedience. A couple chapters after, he outlies, outlines the covenant curses in chapter 28, uh, 28. In chapter 30, um-... God says this, He says, "When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you, and you take them to heart wherever the Lord God disperses you among the nations-
David: In exile.
Seth: In exile. "If you remember these words that I said while you're in exile, uh, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and with all your soul, according to everything I command you today, then the Lord God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where He has scattered you."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Even if you've been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back." So the covenant, God has promised that, "Hey, obey me or you'll go into exile. But once you go into exile, I'll bring you back again."
David: Yes.
Seth: So Lamentations is this public confession of sin, in expectation for this part of the covenant promise to come true.
David: That's right. They are taking the chaotic world of their suffering and the destruction that they're seeing, and putting it inside the story of the Bible. They're seeing how their lived historical reality fits with Deuteronomy and the Torah, and they're pinpointing where they are in the timeline. They're saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Okay, we were God's... Like, we were, we did experience God's blessing. We were faithless, now we're experiencing His curse. But if we return to Him, confess, like circumcise our hearts, He will then bring us back and restore our fortunes." So they're trying to put themselves rightly in the story arc-
Seth: That's right
David: ... of Deuteronomy.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's cool. They're theologizing their historical moment.
Seth: That's right. And I'll say one other thing, that the function of, like, encyclopedically listing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... all the sufferings, and it's, it's theological, like we've described. It's like, "Hey, let's position ourselves correctly in hopes and in expectation of God's return." But it also just, like... Uh, I, I use the word therapeutic very loosely.
David: Mm.
Seth: But it serves a real function for a people who have been traumatized by the brutality of Babylon, or any believer. Le- laments are for any believer who has suffered greatly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the purpose of it isn't simply to re- like, recenter our theology. It is that, yes, but it's also to give people language in the chaos of suffering, a way to talk to God, and a way to express their pain, their confusion, their anger, and find it directed towards, like, the correct end, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so, like, there is, like, this pastoral or therapeutic reason behind the category of lament. It's that for most people throughout all time, suffering is the common mode of human existence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Suffering is more common than prosperity.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what do you do with that? You bring it to God.
David: Mm.
Seth: You don't sugarcoat it. You lay it out blankly, you lay it out starkly, you lay it out encyclopedically-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and you demand God to respond.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what you do with your suffering.
David: Wow, and it's giving an exilic suffering people l- language and permission.
Seth: That's right.
David: Language and permission to say what's... What they've done wrong-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... admit, and give voice, even, like, venting to the pain they're experiencing, and call God to fix it. That's what's happening here.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And fascinatingly, uh, in our Bibles, in English Bibles, um, Lamentations comes after Jeremiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, however, in the original ordering, the Hebrew Bible, Lamentations precedes the books of Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, uh, and, and Ezra and Nehemiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's because those books, Esther, Daniel, Nehemiah, all are after the exile.
David: Right.
Seth: Those are all exilic books. And Ecclesiastes is all about the meaninglessness of life.
David: Mm.
Seth: The book of Lamentation introduces us to this whole section of Biblical literature that is engaging with life after the exile. Like, how do we live as followers of God in the most excruciating circumstances? How do we live when life is meaningless and futile? How do we live when our sons are being thrown to lions? How do we live when our daughters are being thrown into kings' bedrooms?
David: Mm.
Seth: The... And the book of Lamentations is the introduction to all those exilic, difficult books of the Bible to read.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so it's that, it's that pastoral or, like, therapeutic function. Like, what do we do in a place like this?
David: Yeah. It get- It's like, it'd be a very interesting exercise, you know, to read Lamentations as that... Uh, well, I say it's an interesting exercise, it's something that millions of people have done-
Seth: Yeah [chuckles]
David: ... hundreds of years.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: Um, but for our Protestant readers-
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: ... uh, or whatever, who have a different ordering of Scripture, uh, it, it would be an interesting thing for us all to do, to read Lamentations, and then go read these exilic books. And I just think they would- we would feel the tinge of pain more readily-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and the ache for restoration-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... more acutely, if we had first lamented alongside Israel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through the book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's very cool.
Seth: And I think the other thing that just laments do in general, and, uh, the encyclopedic nature of the Lamentations does as well, it's like it gives dignity to suffering.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's just... It's not an a- Like, it is part of life on Earth, and it's not something we're supposed to sweep under the rug. It's something God wants to hear from us, and in fact, has included it in His word.
David: Human suffering has been canonized.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's been risen up to the voice of God, the word of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Holy Scriptures.
Seth: Yeah.
David: ... vividly detail-
Seth: Yeah
David: -human suffering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That when you're, when you're suffering here on Earth, you're not outside of God's gaze-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or outside of his plan, or outside of what's, like, like, what he's doing in the world.
Seth: That's right.
David: And he proves that by putting it in the Bible.
Seth: Yeah, and both innocent suffering and guilty suffering-
David: Get a voice.
Seth: Get a voice-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and get a response.
David: That's good. I'm good to move on, but I d- I do have one lingering question-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to kinda come back to.
Seth: Okay.
David: We started here, and I think we've answered it, but I don't know if we've put a fine point on it yet. You started talking about laments are protest songs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now that we have the background of the covenant and m- the pastoral role that it plays, the historical moment that we're in, what is Israel, or the author, I guess, of Lamentations-
Seth: Mm
David: ... hoping to accomplish, if anything, by protesting God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... this way?
Seth: I mean, I think the final words of the book are pretty instructive. He says this in Lamentations 5:19 and on, "But you, O Lord, reign forever." He's, he's ex- he's vividly detailed all the suffering just above, and he says, "But you, O Lord," despite all of the suffering, "reign forever, and your throne endures to all generations. Why do you forget us forever? And why do you forsake us for so many days? Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may be restored. Renew our days as of old."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, I think the purpose of the protest is for God's kingdom to come.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's why they're doing it. It's like, it's in expectation and hope that things will be other than they are right now.
David: That's really good.
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we have looked at what lament songs are. Uh, we've seen the historical situation that Lamentations was written in, the destruction of the temple, and Israel's cry to God to restore them, based on his covenant faithfulness. Uh, and we have seen how Deuteronomy and Lamentations are talking to each other, the, the detailed curses in Lamentat- or the detailed curses in Deuteronomy getting repeated in Lamentations. God is being faithful to his promises-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... which we always [chuckles] talk about the good ones.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But God also made promises of judgment, and they're saying-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "God, you're being faithful to those."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they're chronicling those encyclopedically, as you said, throughout Lamentations. So we've kind of done the what is Lamentations, what are laments, but, um, how's the book organized?
Seth: Yeah.
David: What's its message? That kind of thing.
Seth: Uh, Lamentations is beautifully, beautifully and expertly crafted.
David: Is that because... You've used this word, is it- you've used the word poet to describe-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the author. Is it a poem?
Seth: It is five separate poems-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that have been stitched together to form one completed work.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he does it very interestingly. So I said it this way, The Book of Lamentations is a series of five acrostic, metered, and chiastic poems that lament Babylon's invasion of Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, [chuckles]
David: All right, let's break that down.
Seth: Acrostic-
David: Acrostic.
Seth: Acro- let's start with chiastic.
David: Okay, okay. [laughs]
Seth: Let's start, let's start opposite-
David: Opposite way
Seth: ... the way that I said it.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: Chiastic.
Seth: Chiastic. So that means that the central message of the book of Lamentations lies in its middle.
David: Which is a very Hebrew thing.
Seth: Which is a very Hebrew thing. The first two chapters set up the solution offered in the center, and the last two chapters respond to the solution offered in the center.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the first two chapters detail really vividly God's destruction of Israel, the, like, total evisceration of Jerusalem and its people. And then right in the middle, you have this statement about God not being only angry.
David: Mm.
Seth: The, uh, 77th verse-
David: Oh, come on
Seth: ... the very, very central verse.
David: And by verse-
Seth: Uh
David: ... are you using that word to refer to the numbers in my Bible, or to a-
Seth: Uh
David: ... poetic verse?
Seth: Thankfully, the numbers in our Bible do a good job of locating the center for us. It is this, and it's chapter 3, verse 33. This is the central verse: "God does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men." So it's, there's this central thing, which goes back, all the way back to the name of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we talked about. God's primary disposition towards his people isn't one of justice. Uh, justice, he does not afflict his people from his heart.
David: Mm.
Seth: Justice is not the center of his being.
David: Of his identity, yeah.
Seth: That's right. Uh, love is.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, just before this climactic statement in 77, he says this: "This I call to mind, and therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness."
David: Which is such a famous verse.
Seth: Such a famous verse.
David: And I think if you ask the normal person, "Where do you think that's found in the Bible?" Nine times out of 10, they're not gonna say Lamentations. They'll probably say Psalms, pro- like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Proverbs, maybe somewhere in the Gospels [chuckles] if they, you know-
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's just really interesting that it's in one of the darkest books of the Bible that you get, oh, the never-ending covenant love of Yahweh just never gives up.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's new every morning.
Seth: It's pretty-
David: His faithfulness is so great.
Seth: It's pretty cool.
David: It's amazing.
Seth: So you have these two chapters leading up to, like, of suffering, suffering, suffering, suffering, like, guilty suffering. Will God be merciful? And then this declaration that, like, God has been faithful to judge us, which means he will be faithful to restore us.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the last two chapters, chapters four and five, kind of test that assumption. Is that enough to handle our suffering? And kind of responds to that central statement-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of God's faithfulness. And this is where the acrostic is interesting.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, that's the chiastic structure. An acrostic just means alphabetical. I've said that before. Um, but every single poem-... is an acrostic, A, B, C, D. There's only 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet.
David: Yes.
Seth: But like, every-
David: And they're not A, B, C, D. [chuckles]
Seth: But not A, B, C, D. [chuckles] Aleph, Bet, Toh.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, in the, in the first poem, you have triplets or, like, a stanza that has three lines, and the first line of that begins with A. And the second stanza of three lines begins with B.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the third stanza begins with C, and that goes all the way down th- through chapter one, and all the way down through chapter two. That's the alphabet. However, in chapter three, it changes. Each line of the stanza begins with each letter of the alphabet. So-
David: There's an intensification?
Seth: An intensification. It's another way to point to the fact that the center is the main point.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The acrostic is proving the chiastic center of the book.
David: It's a literary way to do a crescendo in music.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like, oh, the song's getting louder.
Seth: Mm.
David: The tempo's getting faster. Th- yeah, the, the instrumentation is adding new parts.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: This is the white-hot climax of the song.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's, that's right. But at the end, where you expect in a chiasm, like, for the, the rhythms to be repeated-
David: Right
Seth: ... the acrostic to be repeated, it doesn't. So in the fourth poem, the acrostic is only doubles, double lines, and the fifth poem actually doesn't follow the alphabet.
David: It just breaks down.
Seth: It just breaks down. There's only t- there's 22 verses, there's 22 stanzas-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, but they're only one line long each.
David: It's like at the end of a song when it got really big, and there's all this orchestration and music-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but the last verse is really sad, and it's just the guy and his guitar.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's really stripped down and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... melancholy. [chuckles]
Seth: That's exactly right. So which leads to an interesting question. Okay, now that we know it's a chia- a chiasm, the central point being what we're supposed to focus on, but now that we know the acrostic breaks down at the end, so the question is, is the answer given by the poet enough for the suffering of Israel?
David: And his acrostic, I think what you're saying, his acrostic seems to be saying, "Barely."
Seth: Right, it's-
David: It's, like, running out of steam as he gets to the end of the poem.
Seth: The poem is, like, dissolving-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as if the artist can't continue his craft anymore.
David: He's out of breath.
Seth: He's out of breath. The, the music, it doesn't resolve, it just vanishes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or the melody is unresolved, you know?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, it's just like, it ends in the middle of it. What happened? So it leads you to ask, like, "Okay, God is faithful to judge, which means he'll be faithful to restore, but what good is that if I'm gonna spend 70 years in exile?"
David: Right.
Seth: "What good is that if the next generation, two generations of my family, will all die-
David: Mm
Seth: ... without ever seeing that?" And so the last two... This is why it, it's like, it's not just, like, a covenantal thing, re-theologizing, but it's also therapeutic and pastoral. Like, there's a real sense that even though God is faithful, the consequences will still stand.
David: Mm.
Seth: And God is faithful, yes, but I will die before I ever see that faithfulness.
David: Wow! So the acrostic feature of the poem brings reality to the chiastic center, to put it very nerdily.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that's, that's right. The fact-
David: It's like that the poem breaks down-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... gives credence to the lived reality of trusting in God's faithfulness, knowing that it might not be seen in your day.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: I'm following you.
Seth: So yeah, so it's, it's a, it's, as I said, brilliant.
David: Brilliant.
Seth: Brilliantly written, and the fact that we have five acrostic poems that are so neatly structured also invites you to read the poem in more than one way.
David: Mm.
Seth: You can read it poem one, poem two, poem three, poem four, poem five.
David: Right.
Seth: "Oh, let me go back and see if chapter three, the central poem, really resolves the problems of four and five." It invites me to reread it-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but it also invites me to read it across. What do all the A letters say?
David: Oh.
Seth: What do all the B letters say? And if you read them that way, sure enough, like, it works.
David: That's-
Seth: So-
David: ... too smart. [chuckles]
Seth: Let, let, let me read, let me read to you just the, uh, chapter one, verse one, "How lonely sits the city that was full of people! How like a widow she has become. She who was great among the nations, she who was a princess among the provinces has become a slave."
David: Okay.
Seth: So widow Jerusalem, like, devastated. So now two, verse one.
David: Which is another A?
Seth: Which is another A.
David: Okay.
Seth: "How the Lord in his anger has set the daughter of Zion under a cloud. He has cast down from heaven to earth the splendor of Israel; he has not remembered his footstool in the days of his anger."
David: Another f- female personification of Israel falling from glory.
Seth: Falling from glory, and particularly here, just notice the cloud imagery and the star imagery from the heavens to the earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because chapter three, verse one, says this: "I am the man who has seen affliction. Under the rod of God's wrath he has driven and brought me, into darkness without any light. Surely against me he turns his hand again and again the whole day long."
David: Mm.
Seth: So that theme of darkness to light is now continued in chapter-
David: And it's intensifying as it gets closer to the center-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that now it's not a personification, it's himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's embodied it.
Seth: Mm-hmm. And then in four, verse one: "How the gold has grown dim, how the pure gold is changed! The holy stones lie scattered at the head of every street."
David: Again, a big switch. Something that was lofty has become-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... dingy.
Seth: What was bright has become dull.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, and then it finally in five, verse one, this is not even an A, but it, it's in the A place.
David: It's where A should be.
Seth: It's where A- "Remember, O Lord, what has befallen us; look, and see our disgrace." It's like, it's a, it's a response-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to-
David: "Oh, oh, one who sits goldly in the clouds of heaven, look down and see the dingy daughter-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that we've been talking about in all the As."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is way too good of poetry. [chuckles]
Seth: Isn't it brilliant poetry?
David: It's so good.
Seth: It's brilliant poetry.
David: Gosh!
Seth: And there's another layer of poetry. Let's, like, let's talk- keep talking about poetry.
David: Was this meter?
Seth: The meter. I think meter.
David: Meter. I was, I was waiting to come back to meter.
Seth: So, uh, th- that was the alphabet, so-
David: "Oh, daughter of Jerusalem, how I long to meter!"... [laughing] I couldn't help myself.
Seth: [laughing]
David: All right, meter, poetic meter.
Seth: So there's a whole bunch of different poetic meters. Like, the most famous is, in my memory from high school, is the iambic pentameter.
David: Classic.
Seth: Classic. This is what Shakespeare used. And I learned something as studying to talk about meter in Hebrew poetry today, was, like, iambic pentameter is famous because it's an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, "To be or not to be, that is the question."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there's this cadence-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where it's an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable. And interestingly, in a lot of Shakespeare's work, those are isolated or concentrated in the soliloquies of its main characters. When Hamlet gives the "to be or not to be" spe- speech, the whole thing is in iambic pentameter.
David: Mm.
Seth: When Romeo confesses his love for Juliet, that's in iambic pentameter as well. And so people have debated, "Well, why this particular thing?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Generally, like, the consensus is, it's because when it's- when the character's shedding his heart, it's him at his most passionate, it's him at his most intense, it's him at his most emotional. The theory is that the reason Shakespeare used iambic pentameter in these moments of deep emotion is because that's the beat of a heart. Ba-bum, ba-bum-
David: Oh, my gosh
Seth: ... ba-bum. [exhales] So, like, he is putting the heart of humanity into his poetry-
David: Too good
Seth: ... and into the most emotive parts of, like [laughing] -
David: I love that
Seth: ... of Shakespeare, right?
David: Oh, man.
Seth: So this Biblical author is adopting a different form of poetic meter to achieve a similar result.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the Hebrew poet is using something, the qinah meter. I keep pr- mispronouncing it, but Q-I-N-A-H.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it is difficult to translate into English, but the idea is it's a grouping of three stressed syllables, followed by a grouping of two stressed syllables.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay? It's three, two, three, two. Um, and the idea is that you have kind of this limping or mournful or sobbing meter to your, um, your poetry. So there- here's an English author trying to get across the Hebrew-
David: Okay
Seth: ... meter. Okay?
David: Yeah.
Seth: "How deserted lies the city-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that was once full of people. The greatest among nations that now lies like a widow. Uh, the noblest of states is set to forced labor. By night, she weeps aloud, tears on her cheeks." There's this, like-
David: Ba-da-da, da-da-
Seth: Da
David: ... da-da, ba-
Seth: Da.
David: Da-da.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so there's this l- like... Or I, I even imagine it like, like sobbing, like a [panting] -
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there's this, like-
David: Oh, it's so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Right? So there's the [panting] -
David: [laughing] Yeah.
Seth: Like, it really- [laughing]
David: It does feel like that.
Seth: [laughing]
David: That's the fir- when you actually said three and two, that's what I thought of was-
Seth: That's what you thought of
David: ... deep crying.
Seth: So he is using this through- almost throughout the whole... There's, uh-
David: Wow
Seth: ... it breaks, there's funeral dirges throughout, but this qinah meter-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is used throughout. And the intention here is to get you to mourn, to feel the stuttering, half-hearted, like, the stuttering nature of Israel processing their grief-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in real time.
David: In the same way a Shakespeare speech put to iambic pentameter should make your heart beat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a, a lamentation put to this meter should make you cry.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And think about it this way: that three-two meter-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is also mirrored in the chiastic structure of the poem itself. You have three poems of the same acrostic, right? That stutter and grow less than the last two poems.
David: I can't handle that.
Seth: Right? [laughing] So it's like-
David: That's- that one, that one broke me.
Seth: [laughing]
David: That one broke me.
Seth: So the, the poet is brilliant.
David: [laughing] That's too much.
Seth: Absolutely brilliant, and the whole point of his craft is to, is to, like, give dignity and honor to, to the suffering.
David: I need, I need to go lie down for an hour after that.
Seth: Let me say one more thing, and that might break you. Christine said this as we were talking over lunch. She said, "You know, you could put your genius and artistry-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to a lot of things."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You could celebrate great heroes. You could celebrate the acts of God. You could celebrate great moments of history-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or God's actions in history."
David: Right.
Seth: "But God has chosen to reserve some of his most beautiful and artistic work to describe human suffering-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, and the hope that suffering humans have."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, which is-
David: Does, does God care that I suffer? Yes. He spared his most beautiful poetry-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... to describe it.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Oh! I feel like this podcast is just me digressing into groans. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: At this point, I'm not adding anything, I'm just going, "Oh, God!"
Seth: That's, uh, that's what lamentation is wanting you to do.
David: I'm at- I'm already in poem five.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing] That's right.
David: I've digressed all the way to poem five.
Seth: That's right. [laughing]
David: Good grief. Okay, so that is the structure of the poem.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's chiastic, with the main point in the middle, but that middle point almost makes the poet break down in his acrostic as he tries to stutter to the end-
Seth: Mm
David: ... trying to apply the faithfulness of God i- i- throughout a life he may never see.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the meter itself, the whole way, the heartbeat of the poem, if you will, is the constant sobbing of a Hebrew. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just [inhales] huffing their way through line upon line-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of interconnected poetry.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the structure.
Seth: That's the structure.
David: Okay. Next time?
Seth: [laughing] Um, or no-
David: Um, or no, hold on. Before we do that-
Seth: Yeah.
David: But... So that's the structure. How can we see the Gospel- [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in these two giant categories we've talked about, in the existence of laments in canonized scripture, and God reserving some of his most beautiful, intentional poetry to talk about human suffering?... we're not even in the details, the meaning, the theology of-
Seth: Yeah
David: - Lamentations, we're just talking about the category of laments. But let's stop and reflect on the gospel through that. What comes to mind for you?
Seth: Well, I think laments in general, but Lamentations in particular, wants to force us to, to throw our belief in God into the fire of suffering.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, Lamentations is like a furnace. Like, laments are a furnace in that sense. Like, say, "Hey, you, you believe in God, right?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "What about under these circumstances?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so laments are throwing us into the hardest question, perhaps, a Christian or somebody who believes in God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will ever have to answer, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's a whole bunch to talk about there, and we can talk about the phil- philosophical problems and resolutions to evil another time. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: But I think ultimately, one of the things Lamentations invites us to realize is that eventually, God himself throws himself into that same dilemma. Jesus comes on the scene, God himself. He trusts God. He trusts God, and yet he's thrown into the fires of a crucifixion, and his last words are laments.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're from Psalm 22. It's a lament Psalm.
David: Yep.
Seth: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" We know from the story of Jesus that when we bring our laments to God, resurrection is on the other side.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But there's still that stuttering stop, three days in the grave.
David: Mm.
Seth: That pause-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... between the hope of a lament and the resurrection of Jesus, that we all are invited into.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think we have even greater reasons to be confident that God will restore us than the Hebrews did, based on their understanding of the covenant, because Jesus rose from the dead in three days!
David: No, it's-
Seth: Whole bunch of... Yeah
David: ... it's really good. What, it ma- what you- what saying that made me think of was, you, you talked about how laments force us to take our belief in God, our faith in God, and throw it into the fire. Test it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Because that proves whether it's true or not, whether it's real or not, resilient or not.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, what Jesus throwing himself into the fires of his crucifixion does, is it takes God's faithfulness and promises of, "I love you. I will always be with you. I will never forsake you. I will be your God," and we go, "Yeah, okay, talk is cheap, God." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Prove it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he throws himself into the fire of suffering, and it sticks.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he proves that it's real, and he sa- uh, God's like, "I never just told you I loved you, I proved it to you in the furnace of Calvary, so that you may know that my talk ain't cheap." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: "It is real."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, that's what, that's what-
Seth: That's good
David: ... that made me think of.
Seth: I like that.
David: Um, and then just thinking about the literary design, too, of the book, um, uh, i- it makes me think about even what we do here at Spoken Gospel, day in and day out, is we are looking at this gorgeous book, the Bible, in its entirety, and seeing how brilliantly God has weaved-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the story of his Son throughout it. And as you were going through Lamentations and looking at 1A and 2A-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... and 3A, and showing me how even the meters connected across the acrostic, I'm sitting here going, "And God did this inner-canonically."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, Leviticus can talk to Mark, and it's crazy how not only can, can one poet inspired by God do this amazing work in five poems that are stitched together, but that the ultimate poet, God himself, can make a poem out of the entire history of the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's good.
David: That Jesus resolves every rhyme and finishes every meter-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, and is at the center of every acrostic and finishes every chiasm, and all that kind of stuff.
Seth: At least that's what we're trying to prove, right?
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Yeah, [chuckles] that's what we wanna do.
David: But it's amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the story of Jesus, in history and then recorded in the Bible, makes sense of the poem-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that God has been writing from the beginning, and I just think that's a really beau- beautiful way to think about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God as an author-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and a poet.
Seth: That's so good.
David: Anything else?
Seth: Man, no, I'm excited for next week, where we'll be... I'll give an overview of the five poems, like what is the content of the five poems?
David: We're gonna get into the book.
Seth: We'll actually get into the book.
David: Oh, cool. [chuckles]
Seth: And then, uh, kind of talk about the main messages of the book of Lamentations. Uh, one, God's faithfulness, and the other one is, like, the unspoken main point of the book-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that God never speaks.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: God is entirely silent in the book of Lamentations.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's a big part of its, the book's meaning.
David: Okay. Well, thank you all for joining us for this look at laments and poetry, and we will see you guys next time as we dive into the book of Lamentations. We will see you then. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]