Seth: [upbeat music] The, the thing that Jesus is inaugurating is better.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the God that is doing it is continuing to prove Himself as the kind of God that ex- has existed for His people in all ages past.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about Him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everybody to Maundy Thursday.
Seth: That's right.
David: Is it Maundy or Maundy? Maundy, Maundy. I don't know.
Seth: Choose your poison.
David: Choose your, choose, pick your poison. But, uh, this is the day that we remember the Passover feast that Jesus held-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with his disciples, where he initiated a new covenant during-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Holy Week. Okay? So why should we be excited about Maundy Thursday?
Seth: This is probably the moment where Jesus starts to theologically interpret-
David: Mm
Seth: ... what He's about to do on the cross.
David: That's fascinating.
Seth: Jesus has been doing these very large public events where he's riding into Jerusalem on a donkey as a rival king and a rival to the religious establishment that's currently in power, very publicly arguing with the chief priests-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Pharisees, and the Sadducees of the day.
David: There seems to be, like, one person who gets it, Mary, when she-
Seth: Mary
David: ... anoints Him, and it's like-
Seth: Everybody wants to kill Jesus.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And so Jesus is now taking a beat on the first day of Passover with his disciples, and He's saying, "Let me explain what's going to happen when I die."
David: Mm.
Seth: Um-
David: And He, and He does that through a, a very old meal.
Seth: The Passover feast.
David: The Passover feast.
Seth: The Passover feast. Yeah.
David: Okay. So, uh, uh, well, let's get into this via the, the-
Seth: Passover
David: ... history here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, uh, Jesus is pulling on a Jewish feast that's been happening for a very long time.
Seth: Yep, that's right.
David: Uh, and it goes all the way back to Exodus when the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... people of Israel were enslaved in Egypt, and, you know, God had been sending all the plagues until finally there was one final plague that would finally convince Pharaoh to let the people go and establish the new nation under God.
Seth: Freedom from slavery.
David: Freedom from slavery.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: And that's important.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Freedom from slavery and establish a new nation.
David: That's right.
Seth: Because we're talking about kingship, so, like, the Passover feast is connected to the idea of Israel establishing itself as a people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and a kingdom for the very first time in history.
David: Right, because after Passover, they leave Egypt. They go to Mount Sinai, and God establishes his covenant with them and says, "You will be my people. I will be your God."
Seth: That's right.
David: And so it, uh, uh, Passover and the establishing of God's people and God's covenant is-
Seth: They're, they're-
David: You know, they're very similar.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: They're connected. That last plague that came against Egypt was the death of the firstborn.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right?
Seth: And before that, God promised that there would be a way to escape the death of the firstborn.
David: Right. And, yeah.
Seth: The people of Israel would need to sacrifice a lamb, take its blood, and paint it on the doorposts of their home-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and eat it at a meal with flatbread-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which was matzah bread, or not matzah bread, but, um, unleavened bread.
David: Unleavened bread, yeah.
Seth: Flatbread, and then wine as well.
David: Yeah. And bitter herbs.
Seth: And bitter herbs. This is the meal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that would reenact their salvation story, but also act as the meal that they would eat that would save them from coming death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and establish them as God's people.
David: Okay, hold on. Let me say that again. This is the meal, the Passover meal is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the meal that would save them from coming death-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and establish them as God's covenant people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, that's good.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's helpful.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And free them from slavery, but you know-
David: Oh, yeah, that too. [laughs]
Seth: All of that too, you know. [laughs]
David: That's also very good.
Seth: It's a big deal. It's a big-
David: Big-
Seth: It's a big, big deal.
David: Yes. Okay. Very good. And so for years after that, obviously there, there were times within Israel's history that the Passover stopped being celebrated due to lapses in law obedience.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But for all intents and purposes, we could say, you know, for years and years and years, the people of Israel have been taking this feast.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and why were they taking it?
Seth: Why were-
David: Like, why were the people of Israel still participating in the Passover meal every year? What did it mean to them?
Seth: Well, I mean, to keep it kind of really unspiritual for a second-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's Passover. There's all these messianic expectations f- for Jesus. They're still living under slavery to Rome.
David: Right.
Seth: This meal would've been eaten in hope that through the blood of a lamb-
David: Mm
Seth: ... through the enjoyment of bread and wine, that they could still, by God's power, be rescued from death, freed from slavery, and be established as a new people once again.
David: That's helpful to, to think about Israel under Roman oppression-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, you know, kind of enslaved again-
Seth: Yes
David: ... under this world power, and to eat that meal under Roman oppression-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is almost an act of rebellion.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know?
Seth: Yes.
David: They're expecting some kind of overthrow. You know, I could even imagine some people praying that night as they were eating, like, "God, would you bring the death of the firstborn of-
Seth: Right
David: ... Caesar?"
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: You know, like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... would you come and just do what you did in Egypt?
Seth: Mm.
David: It was an expectation meal-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God would free them from their oppressors and, uh, reestablish them as the-
Seth: Yes
David: ... covenant people of God that they were meant to be.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so people are gathering around. The disciples are gathering around Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, they've taken this meal before.
Seth: Right.
David: This isn't their first Passover.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? They know what it's gonna look like, what it's gonna feel like, what it's gonna taste like, what their expectations are gonna be, and Jesus sits them down-And subverts the whole thing
Seth: Yeah, he takes one of the glasses of wine and some of the bread, and then redirects the meaning-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of those elements away from remembering a past act of salvation and reinterprets them as symbols of what he has come to do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's the innovation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that Jesus makes-
David: What's going to happen-
Seth: ... in that moment
David: ... tomorrow
Seth: That's right, what's gonna happen tomorrow.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he says, "This is my body broken. Do this in remembrance of me."
David: Right.
Seth: Not of the Exodus.
David: Right.
Seth: "Do this in remembrance of me."
David: Mm.
Seth: "In the same way," after the, the, the supper, he took the cup, "This is a new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you, which is my blood poured out for you. Not a lamb's blood-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... my blood poured out of me-
David: Right
Seth: ... for you."
David: Jesus is saying that he's the new lamb. We had this Passover lamb, but its blood wasn't poured into a cup that was drank.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: Right? [laughs]
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: Its blood was spread over the doorpost.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But now Jesus is saying that he's the new lamb whose blood will save you, and instead of painting it over the doorway of your house, you're gonna paint it over the doorway of your body, in a sense-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by-
Seth: Or, or instead of drinking the wine and remembering the blood of the house-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it's like the same concept. No, you'll drink this wine and remember the blood that I am about to spill-
David: Right
Seth: ... for your protection-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and for your salvation.
David: So not only is Jesus redirecting the focus-
Seth: Right
David: ... of, of something past to what he's about to do, he's also kind of reinterpreting some of the symbols.
Seth: That's right.
David: Um, a- and so the bread, too, you know, I don't think when people were eating the unleavened bread, they were thinking-
Seth: Mm
David: ... about someone's body.
Seth: No.
David: You know, so Jesus is using that moment to provide-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... new meaning-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to that element-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the supper-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and saying that it is his body-
Seth: His body
David: ... because the idea of the unleavened bread, uh, for the original audience was the idea that they didn't have time to wait for the bread to rise.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They, because they had to eat it s- like standing up-
Seth: That's right, that's right
David: ... with their, with their belt on and ready to get out of Egypt. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... don't even wait for the bread to rise. Don't use leaven. Just cook flatbread, eat it, and go.
Seth: And in the expectation that rescue and salvation-
David: Was right around the corner
Seth: ... was right around the corner.
David: Which is why the next day, Jesus is gonna die.
Seth: That's right.
David: So him saying like, "My body's gonna be broken like this unleavened bread," eating the unleavened bread means that God's salvation is hastening. It's close-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is why Good Friday is tomorrow.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: That's right.
David: It is just around the corner.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, okay. That's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's pretty cool.
Seth: One way that I thought about it earlier was God's covenant on the first Passover promised freedom and a new kingdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... on the other side of a sacrifice lamb-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, and a dead firstborn.
David: Right.
Seth: And at the same meal, Jesus makes a new covenant and promises that by the sacrificed body and blood of God's firstborn-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God's people will be freed finally and forever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the new-
David: Wow
Seth: ... deeper level-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of it. Like, I won't require the firstborn of the evil powers anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: I'm the most powerful empire in the world, and I will sacrifice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... my firstborn so that all people can be included in my kingdom.
David: Wow, that's amazing. Just thinking about the hypothetical situation that I mentioned earlier in which, you know, some Jewish person was sitting there being like, "God, would you just bring a plague and kill-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the firstborn of Caesar," you know?
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, do what you did in the Exodus. He's like, "I'm gonna do something better. I'm gonna let m- my own son die-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to save you." Uh, man, that's a lot of grace.
Seth: A lot of grace.
David: Talk to me then about this idea of a, a new covenant, 'cause there's a few things we need to explore there to really understand what's going on.
Seth: Mm.
David: Number one, what is a covenant? Number two, what was the old covenant? And three, what does it mean that there's a new covenant? So first off-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's a covenant?
Seth: Uh, an a, a covenant is just an agreement that God makes with humans-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... normally the leaders of a nation or of a particular people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it, and it's agreement between God and people.
David: Okay, and so when God rescued Israel out of Egypt that first time, celebrated by the first Passover, and he said, "I will be your God, you will be my people, I will establish my covenant with you," what was he establishing with them there? What was that covenant?
Seth: Well, what's interesting here is I had never thought about this until studying this passage, but it seems like there is multiple covenants going on.
David: Mm.
Seth: If you take covenant simply to mean agreement-
David: Right
Seth: ... between God and people, God makes an agreement with Israel before they ever get to Mount Sinai. He tells them, "Eat the lamb-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... paint the doors, I will save you."
David: Right.
Seth: And then several, 50 days later, after their journey in the wilderness, after the Red Sea, they get to Mount Sinai, and then he makes an official covenant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we all know is a covenant 'cause he uses the word covenant-
David: Right
Seth: ... in which he establishes them as people. So I was wa- I, as I was thinking through this, there's multiple agreements God's making with his people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in which he's saving them in different ways. There's wa- a covenant that saves them from slavery, sets them free from Pharaoh, and there's another covenant, in a sense, in which he makes them his people for the first time.
David: Mm.
Seth: And normally in a covenant, what happens is God says, "I have expectations of you-
David: Right
Seth: ... and here's what I'll offer in return. I expect you to eat the lamb-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and in return, I will save you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I expect you to obey my, my laws, to love God and love others. In return, you will be my people."
David: Right.
Seth: That's a covenant.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: So that's, that's what a covenant is. That's the old covenant that God made with his people.
David: That, okay, and, and the covenant was that God has saved them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right? And is making them his people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That he would dwell with them, be their God, keep them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... safe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, a- and, and give them a law to obey. Like here's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... here's how to be my people in the world.
Seth: Maybe even more granularly, the covenant is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if you eat the lamb, if you break the body, if you remember the cup, I will save you from death of the firstborn. I will save you from Egypt.
David: Right.
Seth: So if, if we take it granularly right there, that's the covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so the new covenant- That God is making with his people right there is if you drink this bread-
David: Right
Seth: ... or drink this bread-
David: Drink this bread. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... drink this wine-
David: That's called beer
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: If you drink this wine-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and eat this bread-
David: Right
Seth: ... this constitutes a new Passover meal in which I will save you from certain death by the death of my own first born-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I will save you from slavery to Pharaoh, and I will bring you to a place where I'm establishing a new kingdom.
David: Right
Seth: 'Cause like-
David: It's, it's the agreement of what Jesus is going to accomplish on the cross.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's cool.
Seth: Yes.
David: What I also like is, you know, when they do come out of Egypt into Mount Sinai and the word covenant is used.
Seth: Is finally used. Yes.
David: Right? You have this, this agreement in the covenant, the summation of the covenant is love God, love others.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? And when Jesus, you know, says, uh, he's establishing a new covenant there on Passover, he's like, you know, "You, you've heard this, this old, uh, this old thing, which is to, uh, love your neighbor as yourself."
Seth: Okay.
David: "But I'm giving you a new command."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "So here's your end of the bargain."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Uh, the, the, your side of the covenant is to love your neighbor as I have loved you.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah
David: And ... it's like, still love your neighbor, but in a different way. Instead of love your neighbor as yourself, it's love your neighbor as I have loved you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this, like, new way of being human.
Seth: Yeah, that is part of what Maundy Thursday generally communicates-
David: Okay
Seth: ... is the escalation-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of the command to love others.
David: Oh, cool
Seth: Uh, because in some of the Gospel accounts, is that's exactly what Jesus says-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... at this meal-
David: Right
Seth: ... is like, "Now you must love others as I have loved you."
David: As which I sacrificially-
Seth: Yes
David: ... all the way to death.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Yeah, like it's represented in the, in the blood and in the bread.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. That's pretty amazing. Okay. Yeah.
Seth: So I mean, what's crazy is that's only a sliver of what happens-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... on Maundy Thursday.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the new covenant, this, the new command.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The new promise to save, the new ethic to live by-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the new ethic of a new kingdom.
David: Yeah
Seth: Like, all that's happening here at Passover dinner, and then Judas leaves to betray Jesus-
David: Oh
Seth: ... with, uh-
David: Right
Seth: ... a kiss. The disciples start arguing about who's the best leader and who's-
David: Oh, boy. [laughs]
Seth: ... the least likely to betray Jesus. Jesus goes to a nearby garden and starts praying and actually asks God to spare him from giving up the cup that he's just offered his disciples.
David: Right, from having to actually go to the cross and spill his blood-
Seth: That, that's right
David: ... in the way that he just offered.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right
Seth: And then Judas returns with a mob to drag Jesus to a Jewish court. The disciples then scatter. One of the disciples is left naked at one point. He's dr- placed in front of the Jewish court, and they accuse him of blasphemy, and then he's beaten until sunrise.
David: Oof.
Seth: And that's how Maundy Thursday ends, with finally all the pieces that we've been talking about finally in place.
David: Yeah. It is amazing for Jesus to be like, "Here's my body. Here's my blood." And they're probably scratching their heads being like, "I don't see what you're talking about."
Seth: Right.
David: "This is just our Passover meal."
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's right
David: And then just hours later-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Jesus is under arrest-
Seth: That's right
David: ... being beaten-
Seth: That's right
David: ... on the way to execution.
Seth: That's right.
David: And they're like, "Oh, he really meant his blood-
Seth: Right
David: ... and his body."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Very real. Why is it good news that we have Jesus facilitating a new covenant of his body and his blood on the cross? Why is it better that we celebrate using the, the bread and the cup to remember the cross instead of the Passover of Exodus?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, why has what Jesus has done eclipsed what God did in Egypt?
Seth: I think there's one way to answer this question, and that's the way you're framing it, and it's how is it better?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And this kingdom is the final kingdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's about to go in front of Pilate and explain how his kingdom is not of this world and how the order that he's establishing can never be destroyed, and it's to be proven when he rises from the dead.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: His, his kingdom is a resurrection kingdom, unable to be overthrown by any empire like Pharaoh or like Rome that wields the power of death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it is a indestructible kingdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that cannot be assailed. It's better by orders of magnitude.
David: Right
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The salvation Jesus also offers is better than the salvation that was offered to-
David: That's true
Seth: ... Jews were saved from actual slavery in-
David: Good
Seth: ... good things.
David: That's good. That's a good thing
Seth: An amazing thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They were constituted as a people of God.
David: Right
Seth: Like, great thing. Now we're not just s- s- freed from nations, and oftentimes we're not freed from nations.
David: No, oftentimes you're not. Yep
Seth: But we're freed from the more primordial powers, the powers that fuel nations and fuel-
David: Sin
Seth: ... sin.
David: Right
Seth: Evil, Satan.
David: Right
Seth: The powers-
David: Right
Seth: ... that rule this world in some sense.
David: Yeah
Seth: Like, we are freed from their curse and never need to be beholden to them again because the worst thing they can do is kill us.
David: Right, and we're free from that, too [laughs]
Seth: And we're free from that, too.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, and then the nation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that was formed after Passover was the Jewish nation.
David: Right
Seth: A great nation.
David: Yes. Right
Seth: Now that God's people are both Jews and non-Jews.
David: Right
Seth: It's all people.
David: The house of prayer for all nations
Seth: The house of prayer for all nations-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like we talked about before, so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah. It is better.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The, the thing that Jesus is inaugurating is better.
David: Yeah
Seth: And the God that is doing it is continuing to prove himself as the kind of God that ex- has existed for his people in all ages past.
David: Oh, you're s- you're saying that, like, Jesus is showing in repeating this Passover meal that he has been consistently faithful.
Seth: Right.
David: Right. I saved you back then. I'll save you now. I'll save you in the future, and I'm always here.
Seth: And I am cr- increasing the stakes because I'm not gonna require-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... your lambs anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: I'm-
David: So maybe that's another reason-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why this one is better, is because in the first Passover, it required the death of the evil in order to bring salvation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But in this one, Jesus, the death of the righteous-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... achieves salvation, that there's this self-sacrificial upping of the ante-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God makes in giving his own son-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... instead of killing Caesar.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Wow, that's insane. Okay.
Seth: Yeah
David: That's Maundy Thursday.
Seth: And that's Maundy Thursday. That's right
David: That's the new covenant. That's the Passover meal.
Seth: This is the part of Holy Week where I feel like I start running out of words to communicate the, uh, impact of these things that are happening.
David: Because it's just everything
Seth: Because this is now everything.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: This is... Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, it's not like, oh, cool, okay, the judging of the fig tree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Awesome. It's like, no, this is, like, the center of the universe.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs] It's like, okay, amazing. Well, thank you guys for joining us here on Maundy Thursday. Um, we're excited to get into Good Friday tomorrow, which is the day of Jesus's death.
Seth: That's right
David: And we'll talk about why such a horrible day could be good.
Seth: Could be.
David: So we'll see you tomorrow. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]