David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We have a pretty special episode, and even series coming to you now because we are going to be walking through the last book of the Bible that we have zero podcasts on. [laughs] Some books didn't all get the same treatment. Some were done chapter by chapter, some have some sermons, some have some introductory material, but one book has nothing at all, and it is the book of Job in our Bibles.
Christine: That's right.
David: Yeah, which I guess, I don't know if that like-- if it's weird to say it feels appropriate, but it's kind of very, very difficult book.
Christine: It is a very difficult book, and very beautiful.
David: Yeah.
Christine: My friend was telling me just this morning how it's one of her favorite books-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and she comes to it for encouragement and comfort, and I found that very beautiful. But it's also a book that many people come to in times of crisis and times of disaster, and so I feel very inadequate talking about the book of Job, but it's been very interesting learning about it.
David: Yes, it has. It's been very interesting, and like you said, I guess you didn't use this word, but very humbling. We were talking about it. We're like, the deeper we go in Job and the more passes we do through it, the more terrifying it all becomes because at the end, you just keep coming face to face with the God of the whirlwind who meets Job and asks him a whole bunch of questions he can't answer. And I think, yes, a lot of people come to Job, you're absolutely right, with questions, with suffering in dark times, for encouragement. They also come to Job with a lot of questions, with a lot of accusations against God for letting evil happen in the world. They come to Job with a lot of preconceived notions of what they think is right and wrong and how the universe should be governed versus how it is governed. And so it's been a very difficult book to go through again and again and again because it's very real, because it's dealing with the raw reality of suffering.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so I think those are the two things that, as you and I have talked about this, that we're trying to hold as open-handed and humbly as possible while still trying to be helpful in front of podcast microphones, [laughs] is we're trying to hold humbly the fact that Job is written, in a sense, to not give us answers to questions that we ask.
Christine: Yes, because the questions we bring might not be the questions Job is entertaining-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... or wrestling with. And that was an interesting realization when we were, again, trying to stick close to the text and realized, at least I realized, that a lot of things that I would ask or things that people would ask about their own circumstances, they will bring to Job and expect Job to answer those questions.
David: Yes.
Christine: But Job is talking about something completely different. And so if we are looking for answers Job is not trying to give, we can sometimes miss the whole point-
David: That's right. Yeah
Christine: ... or, or the comfort that Job is trying to bring.
David: Yes, 'cause he's giving a comfort for sure, but maybe not the one we're looking for-
Christine: Yes
David: ... in a sense.
Christine: And we might not want to be comforted by [laughs] that-
David: That's right. Yeah
Christine: ... which, yeah.
David: So that's the one thing we're trying to hold really humbly and open is Job is doing something very different than we often try to do with Job, and that's kinda gonna be what today we talk about. The other thing we're trying to hold is the fact that it's talking about human suffering. And of course, Christine and I are both humans last I checked, so we have suffered. We have walked through things, but we don't for one second pretend that we've walked through the worst that this world and its brokenness has to offer us. And we know that people are listening to this that have suffered far worse than we have, and we want you to know [laughs] that we're not trying to presume that we know exactly what you feel, and that we know exactly what it feels like to suffer as you have, and that this podcast and walking through Job is gonna solve all of that. We're not saying that.
Christine: Yeah, we can't solve the problem of suffering, but we can hopefully point you faithfully to the person who has gone through suffering and will solve suffering for good.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Christine: So that's all we're trying to do.
David: So that's kind of our, like, humble [laughs] prelocutor to this whole series we're gonna do, several episodes here on Job. The first one that we felt like we really had to do was positioning Job in his own world, and that doesn't just mean when did Job exist, where did he live, let's date it, let's try to figure out what language he spoke or anything like that. That's part of it, for sure, but Job exists in a sense in a larger literary world because Job is written in a genre style that is actually quite widespread across Job's time in the ancient Near East. Lots of people and lots of cultures wrote books like this.
Christine: Yeah. We say often or something that you might learn in Job 101 or something is that Job is the oldest book, or it's at, at least in the oldest type of language that is in the Bible. But it's also not unique in how it talks about suffering in cultures in the ancient Near East. A lot of people were wrestling with the same issues that Job was wrestling with, or at least was similar. A lot of cultures were tackling and wrestling with the problem of suffering. And so it was fun to jump into that 'cause we haven't really consulted ancient Near Eastern documents-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... like this to prepare for a Bible podcast.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Which makes me think, well, it'd be fun to do that more often because that is creating the right background for a book of the Bible, which was also written-
David: That's right
Christine: ... ages ago. But with Job, because its literary genre is so unique, it was just helpful to see similar types of literature exist in ancient Mesopotamia or Babylonia or Egypt or Sumer and hear voices from the past that are similar to Job-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... and how they were trying to- tackle this issue of suffering was very interesting to kind of jump into.
David: Yeah. And so we're gonna introduce you to three of these, these books here, and there's a lot more than that that we're- we might mention, we probably won't, but there's plenty of others. You know, you can look up theodicy literature of the ancient Near East if you wanna go on your own rabbit hunt and, [laughs] and look down all these different trails. But we're gonna be dealing with three of them, but I wanna introduce you to one really quickly just to show you kind of the, the world that Job co-inhabits with these other pieces of literature. And so there's a famous book that a lot of people read, a very old book, and it describes a wealthy man who loses everything, laments over his horrible plight that his God has allowed him to fall into, and the sufferer, try as he might, can't find one evil thing that he's done to account for all the evil that has befallen him until the end when finally his God shows up and takes away his suffering.
Christine: That sounds like the beats of Job.
David: It sounds just like the beats of Job, but this is a poem of a man called Ludlul, and the poem of the righteous sufferer, as we'll call it. And let me just read a selection for us here, and you'll see what I mean. So quote, "My ill luck has increased, and I do not find the right. I called to my god, but he did not show his face. I prayed to my goddess, but she did not raise her head. When grain is served, I eat it like stinkweed. Through lack of food, my countenance is changed. My flesh is flaccid, and my blood has ebbed away. My bones have come apart and are covered only with my skin. I take to a bed of bondage. Going out is a pain. My house has become a prison." So this is his, like, lament, and then he goes into how he's gonna try to fix it, and he says this. Quote, "For myself, I gave attention to supplication and prayer. To me, prayer was discretion. Sacrifice was my rule. The day for reverencing the god was a joy to my heart. I instructed my land to keep the gods' rights." And then he comes into a problem. Quote, "I wish I knew that these things were pleasing to one's god. What is proper to oneself is an offense to one's god. What in one's own heart seems despicable is proper to one's god. Who knows the will of the gods in heaven?" This is a bit like Job, but maybe you can also already start to hear some of the differences. But the idea here is that this trope, if you wanna call it that, this story device, this way of trying to make sense of the w- a world in which the gods are active and powerful, and yet humans who try to serve them suffer regardless of that relationship, is something that cultures have tried to tease out and make sense of for thousands of years.
Christine: Yeah, and in this case, if you read the whole thing, which it doesn't take too long to read, and there are online resources that are free, but in cases like this, the person who's suffering seems to be kind of at the mercy of a god who may or may not want to help him.
David: Yes.
Christine: It's a crowded universe full of spirits that want to harm you, full of spirits that want to do you good, but sometimes those that want to do you good are not as strong as those who want to harm you, or you're not placating the right one, or you're not offering the right kind of sacrifice, and so you need priests to help you know exactly what to do, or diviners that will tell you what the will of the god is and get the god to send a helper to your side. It's a very complicated economy. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Christine: And even with this one, in this case, the righteous sufferer is appealing to Marduk, the Babylonian god-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... to rescue him, and eventually Marduk does. And it's very interesting to read that alongside Job and see the differences, but also the similarities, 'cause some of it is compellingly similar.
David: Yes. And so to talk about this then, now that you've kind of come face to face with this, like, comparative reading here, it's helpful to talk about what Christine just said, which is, how do we notice the similarities and the differences of the stories that we tell in our world and the counter-story that the Bible tells? Because the Bible does this throughout its literary corpus. It, it riffs on stories that the world already knows and is familiar with and is convinced are true, but then subverts them in certain ways to teach a different truth. [laughs] And so you can see this with the flood story. Like, people, everyone believed in a flood, right? There were, like, so many cultures had flood stories and narratives. But why did it happen? Who caused it? What did it accomplish? These are things that the Bible gives a different perspective on than, say, the Epic of Gilgamesh. And so, and when we do comparative reading, we don't need to be scared, I think is often what happens, of the similarities. I think we tend to get scared as Christians that this isn't a novel, fully unique, no other book is, says anything close to anything like it in the world.
Christine: Uh-huh.
David: And we get scared, and we think, "Oh no, the Epic of Gilgamesh sounds like Noah's flood, therefore it must not be true." And the opposite is the, the case.
Christine: Starkly the opposite.
David: Starkly the opposite.
Christine: It's good news that there's literature that's very similar to the Bible, because if there were not, then the Bible wouldn't be speaking to real humans and real human problems. We have plenty of literature that addresses the, you know, everything that's on the stage [laughs] of human life, from the drama of death to love to how do I make sure I die well and live well. Those are all things that humans wrestle with, and being made in the image of God, we have wrestled with these in different ways in different times. And so it's quite fun to compare it, and like you said, it's nothing to be afraid of because they both offer commentary on How the world works and how the gods work, and comparing those helps you appreciate how God of Israel, the creator God, is so different.
David: [laughs]
Christine: And we're not saying with this that the writer of Job was aware of these other, you know, Near Eastern-
David: Right
Christine: ... pieces of literature. We're just saying that as much as a genre is helpful, there are other piece of literature that are similar to Job and dealing with similar things. And even seeing how innocent suffering was a problem people dealt with or wrestled with even then, and how they tried to go about it, shed some light even on how we tr- sometimes try to solve problems or vindicate ourselves-
David: Yes
Christine: ... when we think we're an innocent victim, or when we are an innocent victim. Or is there such a thing as an innocent victim? And this is what these types of literature-
David: Yes
Christine: ... are exploring.
David: So I wanna double, double-click on that because to also understand how to see the similarities and differences between ancient stories and an ancient story like Job, let's look at our modern story as we come to Job and go-
Christine: Okay
David: ... not only let's dissect what's going on between Job and his own genre, what's going on between Job and our genre of story now. Because I think whenever I was taught to come to Job, it was to answer the problem of suffering, right? But the question that needed to get solved that I inherited from my cultural story was one that a good God would not allow innocent suffering.
Christine: Hmm.
David: And so how is it that God can be good and yet an innocent, fully blameless, innocent person could still suffer under his watch? Wouldn't that make him not good? Or wouldn't that make that person not innocent? One of... It's a binary. One has to switch off and the other has to switch on.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And Job refuses that dichotomy.
Christine: Yeah, that question you bring, that you mention people can bring to the text is, yeah, s- it sounds very familiar.
David: Yeah.
Christine: The burden of proof that you kind of inherit or need to bring to Job as a good Bible-loving, God-loving Christian is, okay, is God good when evil things happen? Is God good when Job suffers like this? And that's a question-
David: [laughs]
Christine: ... but it's not the question that Job is asking. The fact that we have this need to prove the goodness of God is actually something kind of unique to the Judeo-Christian world, because we have a standard of good or an idea of what good is that has been revealed to us in the character of God.
David: Hmm.
Christine: But that was not a category or a characteristic that necessarily the other ancient Near Eastern cultures had. They did not need to prove to themselves that God was good or that the gods were good. Many times, they weren't. You wouldn't tell them that, obviously, but-
David: Right
Christine: ... you, you know, you would praise them and say they were good, but they could change their minds on a whim. If you gave the wrong sacrifice, they would not be as amiable towards you, or if someone gave an even better sacrifice, they would favor the other person. And so there was a lot of capriciousness, there was a lot of praise out of fear of the virtue of the gods, but there was also this idea that they are the powerful ones, and we are just people, and we're m- mere creatures. How can we even begin to understand the way of the gods? And they do whatever they want. They're so powerful. And so how do we survive in a world of so much power that does not have our best interest at heart?
David: Right.
Christine: 'Cause humans are disposable in the ancient Near Eastern world.
David: Yeah, so it's fascinating to think about the fact that the question that we even are bringing to Job, Job's own culture, and in fact, I would say Job himself, doesn't have a category to even ask.
Christine: Hmm. That's good.
David: Like, Job as a person, as a author, as a book, as a, you know, whatever you wanna call it, doesn't have the capacity to ask the same question that we have today to ask. We're asking the question, how is God good? He would never ask that question.
Christine: He wouldn't, and notably-
David: And no- notably doesn't in the book
Christine: ... doesn't, and also, these are all people that supposedly exist outside of Israel, outside of Moses's law, regardless of when this was written, which was probably even earlier than Moses's law. There isn't that type of theophanic revelation that they can adhere to, where, you know, you see Israel call on God and say, "You are gracious and merciful and slow to anger and abounding in love, and you are who you are, and you will have mercy on who you have mercy." There's all this that we actually are echoing back to God that He told us first.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And the gods are saying things to the people in the ancient Near East too, but that is not something that they will say in that way.
David: That's right.
Christine: Or that's not what they will emphasize.
David: Yeah, God has not disclosed in a Mosaic kind of way His goodness to the world in law, in theophany, right, in appearance, in a way that we don't see Job or his friends parrot it. We don't see them quote it. We don't see them reference it.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so we have the self-disclosure not only of Sinai, right, but of Calvary. We have the self-disclosure of the self-giving love of Jesus, that He would lay His life down through innocent suffering in order to ransom us and save us from these evil other pagan gods and powers and bring us out of death and sin and suffering. [laughs] And like, we have that story. We know how good Yahweh is. We know how good Jesus is, and therefore, we then have a completely new category, a new story to then reflect on its relationship with innocent suffering. Now we have the capacity to ask God of that and go, "Wait, hold on. I thought you were all benevolent, all good, all just, all righteous," right? We, we have these categories that were given to us, but then we tend to want to define what those mean, control them, and then project them on God and say, "So therefore, you have to fit my category, or I do not deem you as good." And we become the judge.
Christine: Wow.
David: Right? And we say- Based on my own categories of understanding of ethic, morals, goodness, righteousness, you don't fit it, therefore I reject you or I put you in the dock.
Christine: Wow.
David: But Job is not putting God in the dock. Job is putting Job in the dock. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, and he's not trying to do either, in fact.
David: He- Job-
Christine: It's his friends
David: ... as a character is not trying to do either.
Christine: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
David: You're right.
Christine: You're right.
David: Yeah, sorry. Yeah.
Christine: We need-
David: We have to be very careful what we do-
Christine: [laughs] Still
David: ... with the book and the character here.
Christine: [laughs] I keep-
David: Yes
Christine: ... misunderstanding the book for the person, but yes.
David: Yeah, Job the book is not putting God in the dock. Job the book as his friends are putting Job in the dock. Job is just suffering and trying to be faithful.
Christine: Yes.
David: He's not doing either.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And he's forced into a position that he didn't ask to be in, where when he starts his lament, he's just sad. He's just hurting, and then his friends start accusing him, and they're not accusing God. All we're saying is there's a story we tell ourselves. We're gonna look at the story that Job's world told about the gods and about innocent suffering, but there's a story we tell ourselves and that we have-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... that if God was all good, there wouldn't be suffering in the world. But you have to know what any kind of goodness is and know that God must be that, but then redefine that on your own terms and hold it over God, therefore becoming God and judge yourself and putting God under your standard in order for that logic to even hold up.
Christine: Yeah, and that kind of reasoning presupposes that suffering is bad-
David: Yes
Christine: ... which is a dangerous thing to call into question in Job or in any part of your life when you're experiencing suffering because yes, suffering is bad. People dying, bad. Injustice happening, bad. The oppression of the weak, bad. These are all heinous things, and so where does suffering fit in? Especially when I haven't done anything to displease God, to the best of my knowledge, and I know God is good.
David: Hmm.
Christine: Where does suffering, where does the pain fit in? And I think that's what is being kind of fleshed out and explored through very devious [laughs] friends, if we can call them that, but different voices will bring different things-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... in an effort to somehow find some fault in Job. And as you pointed out in Job chapter 3, Job is just lamenting.
David: Yeah.
Christine: You can, you know, lament is all over the Bible. Most, not most, at least a third of the psalms are lament psalms. God's people are used to lamenting, used to suffering, and there's sometimes, you know, repentance involved in terms of admitting we have sinned. We have done what is evil in your sight, and we're getting what we deserve. Have mercy on us 'cause we know you are righteous and, and slow to anger and abounding in love. And so people will appeal to God's character and acknowledge their own wrongdoing. And Job's friends in many cases want Job to do that.
David: To do that.
Christine: Just acknowledge your wrongdoing and God will lift you up. And Job is like, "No, I am innocent." [laughs] It's not, yeah, Job is not thinking he's guilty, and he's not going to say that God is evil. And interestingly, his wife at the beginning says, "Go and blame God. Say God is evil." And his friends tell him, "Blame yourself. You are evil."
David: Yep.
Christine: And Job tries to hold the innocence of both himself and God in tension and say, "Nevertheless-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... I'm innocent and so is God. Blessed be the name of the Lord."
David: Yeah. Before we jump into these other three, which we're about to do, these other three stories of theodicy in the ancient Near East, I just wanna say, 'cause you've said it so clearly there, Christine, just to give everyone something to hold onto, that in a sense what Job is doing as a book is it is holding on to Job's innocence, God's innocence and goodness, and the fact that he's suffering, and the only answer we get for how all those come together is God shows up and says there's answers we don't know.
Christine: Yes.
David: That we're not God. Our brains can't understand it, even if he told us. Get to that in a later episode, but just as a framework, that's what Job's often d- doing, and it's not doing the thing that we often try to make it do.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so I just think that's helpful. So that's the story we're bringing to Job in a sense. At least Christine and I. [laughs] Like, we can't speak for everyone. But, you know, if you come from a different culture or a different background or you ask different questions, I would invite you to think what story of, of suffering, innocence, guilt, God's goodness, God's vindictiveness, what story am I bringing to the idea of suffering in this world? And get ready to get pushed back on by Job, 'cause it is going to push back on whatever your narrative is probably.
Christine: And you might recognize yourself in a lot of these-
David: Mm-hmm
Christine: ... voices speaking or in predicaments. Yeah, there are some things that might be worth mentioning about, yeah, the beginning and the ending of Job, but maybe after we jump-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... into.
David: Yeah. Okay. So let's introduce you to three, quote-unquote, "innocent sufferers," three theodicies, three books, three pieces of, I don't know, literature inside this genre. One of the oldest, perhaps arguably the oldest, is Sumerian, and it's called A Man and His God. And it's the story of a devout young man who can't find a crime that he's guilty of, and he's overtaken by all kinds of horrid sicknesses and grief, and he pours out his lament over and over again. I think this is the only one of the three, and I might be wrong here, but this one has no friend or mentor that he's talking to. So a lot of times in this genre, there are friends and there is a mentor like, like Job's friends. That's part of the trope of the genre, but at least in A Man and His God, and maybe also in The Righteous Sufferer-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... I think, yeah.
Christine: I was going to say The Righteous Sufferer is another example where it's, so to speak, monologue-
David: Right
Christine: ... or there's one speaker who Sometimes is appealing to a deity or is recounting what happened to them.
David: That's right. And so in a man and his God, you have this young, you know, wealthy man who's devout, overtaken by sickness, can't figure out why, and so he pours out his lament to his God. And he's explained that there's this demon, this... He calls it, at least in my translation, a fate demon that's overtaken him and is oppressing him. And so he is pouring his lament out to his God to try to soothe the heart of his God so that that God might recruit a stronger spirit, a stronger demon, to come and fight off the fate demon and save him from this horrible circumstance that he's undergone. But he doesn't know exactly what will soothe the God, so he just continues to lament, continues to pour out his suffering before this God to hopefully, finally woo the God's heart away from letting him suffer and, and convince him to be merciful. And so you've got a man and his God, is the lament itself soothes the God's heart so that he'll send a guardian demon to drive out the disease demon. Like, that's a man and his God in a nutshell. Very reductionistic, but that's, that's kind of the story.
Christine: So in a way, it's the man is a victim of a malicious-
David: Spirit
Christine: ... spirit, and he-
David: That he's allowed to go to him because the God has let him, or-
Christine: Yes
David: ... or hasn't let him, that'd be the wrong way to think about it, but didn't protect him.
Christine: Yeah, so somehow either the God let him fall through the cracks or something like that, or he just was overpowered somehow, but-
David: That's right
Christine: ... it's, I'm imagining just, you know, the victim of a lion attack. [laughs]
David: Yep.
Christine: And his problem is that he doesn't know what will, what will satisfy his God or get his God's attention to come to his rescue and replace the evil spirit with something-
David: Stronger
Christine: ... benevolent or stronger.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That's right.
Christine: Okay.
David: The thing to think about with a man and his God is the, he doesn't know what will get the God on his side-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... but his only hope is to just lament, and hopefully that lament soothes the heart of the God.
Christine: Interesting.
David: Yeah.
Christine: There's, there's another story that's similar to that called The Eloquent Peasant-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and that's of Egyptian literature where it's not the gods who need to be appeased here, but it's about this peasant who's unjustly robbed, and he goes and complains to the king of the land about this elite figure who has, you know, has all the strings in court and nevertheless did him an injustice. And he is beaten nine times and complains even more times before the ruler of the land is placated. And again, there's like this innocent suffering or this oppression of the poor that that is bringing about. And again, the guy just complains the entire time-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and flatters the people to pieces [laughs] and saying like, "Oh, you are so just. You would never let anything evil happen in your land." I, I don't remember the exact wording, but-
David: Well, sure, but like think about this, that as we think about this idea of a lament, both with the eloquent peasant and with a man and his God, this idea that persistent, even eloquent lament would-
Christine: The right words
David: ... the right words would soothe the heart of the ruler in order to have them intercede and provide some kind of relief.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That idea is-- Not that idea, but that kind of literature is present in Job. Job laments a ton, and beautifully so, poetically so. The language, the structure of it is eloquent, it's beautiful, and it's very, very intense lament. Like, if ever a God's heart would be soothed by lament, like here it is. But that is never Job's goal in his lament. Not once does he think that his lament is going to do something to God.
Christine: Yeah. Job didn't even want to have this whole conversation. [laughs]
David: No.
Christine: Job was content to end the book at three.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: He was just sad. He had everything, then everything was taken away, and then he's crying, and then his friends turn it into this argument that Job does not want to have. And it's just interesting that you mentioned that.
David: Right. And so, yeah, I think the point there is, again, this is one of those things, similarity between Job and other pieces of literature, right? Lament. But what's the purpose of it? What's the difference? Well, the difference, the dissimilarity is that Job's not trying to accomplish something upon the heart of his God with his lament. It's never aimed at God's heart that, oh, maybe if God hears my many, many laments, he'll take pity on me and overturn this horrid thing that's happened to me. That's never his case. He's not trying to do that. Again, similarity, dissimilarity. Okay, that's a man and his God, and a bonus eloquent peasant. [laughs]
Christine: Sorry. [laughs]
David: No, I love it. And then the second one, the righteous sufferer. So this one's Babylonian, and so we'll have two that are Babylonian. The last one was Sumerian. This one's Babylonian, and the righteous sufferer-
Christine: This is what you quoted from earlier
David: ... this is the one I quoted earlier in length, yes. And in this one, you have a high nobleman named Ludlul who loses everything, his health, his honor, his status, and even the protective spirits that once stood beside him, and which is a big deal because he has dedicated his whole life to securing these many different spirits. And as you read the story, you see the infrastructure that he has built around himself.
Christine: He got insurance.
David: He has lots of ritual pagan insurance and, and he runs an entire apparatus of Mesopotamian religion. He's got diviners and dream priests. He's got exorcists. He's got omen readers. All kinds of things, and all of them have failed. They, they could not, number one, they couldn't provide answers for him. They couldn't give him information about what the gods want him to do to escape this. They couldn't get him the right spirits to keep this bad stuff away. They all failed him.
Christine: Mm-hmm. So they can't explain it, and they can't alleviate it.
David: Right, and so which is interesting as we think about the problem of righteous suffering from a pagan worldview. For them, they're like, "We've built the infrastructure of appeasing our God and communing with him, and like I've given him so many feasts and libations, and I've, I've done everything I could. Everything the omen readers and the diviners told me to do, I've done." And so why is he mad at me? Why is he doing this to me? I wish I knew, but I can't know. And so being rescued not by finding an answer, but by, I think it's a series of three dreams that he gets.
Christine: Yeah, the first dream is actually very similar to what Eliphaz describes, which was fascinating. And again, with those, it's kind of an indictment on even attempting to understand who are you, dustling, that you would even begin to grope in the divine mind to find an answer that you cannot comprehend?
David: Mm.
Christine: And so I think the first one is sort of like a you're reaching too far-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... kind of a statement, and then the other ones were summoning the rescue mission, as it were, of, like, we will put salve on your wounds.
David: Right.
Christine: We will restore your fortunes, and it's interesting because again it's like, well, did he cry long enough? We try to do the same things they are doing.
David: We do.
Christine: Is they describe all the ways that they've hedged in their protection and paid the insurance to all the different types of gods against all these different maladies. And then when tragedy strikes and insurance doesn't pay for it [laughs]-
David: Right
Christine: ... and they are all amiss and they are just crying, then they get this theophany of sorts or this oracle, and things get restored, and there's still not really a satisfactory answer of why, but-
David: Yeah, the only-
Christine: ... the fact that we try to understand it in that-
David: Right
Christine: ... quid pro quo-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... way is telling of how we try to understand the universe too, but-
David: Yeah, all we get is the phrase, "Marduk's heart was appeased."
Christine: Yeah.
David: But we're not told how.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And it's just he stopped and he sent some dudes to go fix it. [laughs]
Christine: Like an unrighteous judge I've heard someone talk about.
David: [laughs] Yes, and so that is the righteous sufferer. It's a lamenter who tries every ritual to appease his god, Marduk, but he doesn't know what will appease him. And finally, without knowing what accomplished it, Marduk's heart is somehow appeased, and he heals the man. But then what's interesting is how it ends is, you know how Job ends. This is one of the differences. Job ends with all this richness being given to Job. Do you remember how the righteous sufferer ends?
Christine: I do not.
David: All the richness being given to Marduk.
Christine: Okay.
David: Which is so cool.
Christine: Interesting.
David: Like, it's such an interesting subversion there because as soon as he's healed, he just starts libating Marduk over and over and over again, giving him tons of food, tons of drinks because he's like, "Okay, I've got him on my good side. I gotta keep him that way now."
Christine: Hmm.
David: And-
Christine: Wow
David: ... it's not really a restoration of the man. It's, it's a, uh, I've now found a good patron, let me keep him happy.
Christine: Yeah, it's he's double the slave he was before.
David: Instead of being double blessed, he's double slaved.
Christine: Wow.
David: Ouch. Yeah. Okay, demon's bad, Jesus good. All right, here we go. Third one, [laughs] the Babylonian theodicy. Now, this one is a dialogue, and it's fascinating to read because it, it, I would say in a way it's most similar to Job because of that dialogue.
Christine: The dialogue and also the way the sufferer, if we call him the sufferer and then the friend is the one he's talking to.
David: Yeah, kind of his mentor.
Christine: Yeah. The sufferer has a lot of points that he makes that are similar to Job.
David: Yes.
Christine: Because the friend, and fill in what I can't remember, but the friend, you know, has compassion on his suffering friend, on the sufferer, and says, "The gods will restore you if you just do the sacrifices." And the sufferer says, "I have done them. It's not because of failure on that front that I am suffering these things." And the friend kindly is like, "Well, just double down. Give more sacrifices. Keep doing the thing. Keep doing the-
David: Yep
Christine: ... quid pro quo equation, and they will look in favor on you when they see your, your piety." And the sufferer kind of pushes back and says, "I do not lack in piety."
David: I've got plenty of that.
Christine: And he wants to despair. The sufferer wants to despair and says, "Well, what has piety served me for?" And he just wants to jump off the deep end. And the friend trying to be the, you know, the orthodox encourager is like, "No, just keep doing the sacrifices and the gods will hear you." And the sufferer says, "That has not helped me, and also there are other sufferers that are suffering innocently like me."
David: Yep.
Christine: And he points to the oppressed in the world and the injustice.
David: He does, and he also points to, like, he calls them the rogue in my translation.
Christine: Okay, yeah.
David: Uh, but they're vindicate-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... and, like, they have, everything's going well for them. They aren't tied to a patron.
Christine: Yeah.
David: They aren't doing sacrifices, and yet they're totally fine.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It seems like the gods don't care.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: He kind of entertains that. He says the rogue are better off 'cause they do not become poorer by having a patron.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And having a patron has not made me richer.
David: Hmm.
Christine: And so why am I, you know, he just wants to kind of throw in the towel, and he says, "Well, I can go and have my own, and instead of being gentle and generous, I can be reckless and violent-
David: Yep
Christine: ... and I can take what I've been trying to give so far." So it's, it's a very interesting thing the way despair enters into that-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... conversation.
David: If, if all this food and drink and wealth that I am just pouring out at the altar isn't making my life any better, how about I just keep it all for myself and go on the lam?
Christine: Yeah.
David: Might as well just do that.
Christine: Yeah. And the friend is being, again, the pious, like, pushbacker-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... here because he says, "No, keep doing the sacrifice." He's trying to fight for him to preserve his piety and his religion.
David: Yep.
Christine: He's like, "Don't throw religion out. The gods will look on you if you give more sacrifices."
David: Yep.
Christine: An interesting light is cast on how they are wrestling with their options even. The friend sees only one option forward, and that is to keep doing the sacrifices and no matter what, do not anger your patron. Do not throw your religion away-
David: Right
Christine: ... as it were. But the sufferer is showing that, well-
David: It hasn't done me any good
Christine: ... it hasn't done me any good. He wants to despair. He entertains the fact that there are innocent sufferers because the oppressors are out and free and are doing what they want and are causing innocent suffering, and why shouldn't he do that?
David: Right.
Christine: Because having, having a god to appease has not- Granted him the protection he wanted
David: Yeah, and what's really interesting about that is where it all lands. At the end, the last thing the friend says, at least in the fragment that we have, right? I don't think we-
Christine: Yeah, it's not-
David: ... necessarily have the full story, but at the end of the fragment we have, the friend's last point is that the gods made us evil and punish us because of that. Like, no matter what we say, it's evil, deceitful, bad speech because that's how the gods made us. And-
Christine: So they have to punish us
David: ... so they have-
Christine: They're just to punish us-
David: No, no
Christine: ... because they made us evil?
David: It's not even that. He doesn't make the justice argument.
Christine: Oh.
David: He says that our evil and our way of being wicked just shows us that that's how they are.
Christine: I do remember that, yeah
David: ... that they, we act evil towards one another, and that's how they act, too. And so it's, they're going to pursue you vindictively and capriciously, and they are flippantly-
Christine: Hmm
David: ... wishy-washy in their governance of the universe. Just look around at how they made us evil. We do the same things. That's how the gods are.
Christine: Yeah, and it's, doesn't he imply that the gods kind of made a mistake? It's like, well, the gods messed up when they made humanity.
David: Yes
Christine: And so we suffer, we do evil things, and so our plight is to ask for their help or something like that.
David: Yeah, basically
Christine: Like, basically, humans are a mistake [laughs] that the gods made.
David: Yeah, and the gods are-
Christine: Ugh
David: ... equally as evil and crazy and-
Christine: Mm
David: ... wild, but they're more powerful, so we have to keep doing the thing.
Christine: Yeah. We have to.
David: We have to keep offering the libations. We have to keep trying to win them over-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... because though they be just as evil as we are, we need them.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Which is such a different universe-
Christine: Yeah, or we need-
David: ... to read Job in, [laughs] right?
Christine: Yes. Yeah. Well, I was gonna, like, add to the end of that. It's like, we need them or we need them to not pay attention to us.
David: Yeah, please ignore me.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: So don't do... I mean, I'm thinking of the Eumenides. The same irony is there in that-
David: Mm
Christine: ... case 'cause they're called the Eumenides, but everyone is kinda like, yeah, the gracious ones, those vengeful goddesses that go after, you know, spillers of blood of relatives. And so you definitely don't want to kill your relative, or the Eumenides, the Furies, will come after you, and they're more aptly called Furies, but-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... people will call them the gracious ones or the kindly ones, which is what Eumenides means.
David: Oh.
Christine: And there's this interplay of like, "Don't anger the Eumenides 'cause they will come after you and they'll be out for blood and vengeance because you did something." So there's, it's the same thing.
David: Yeah, it is, and Job steps into this world of innocent suffering, powerful spiritual realm that we are subject to and provides a different account of things. And so we've seen some of the similarities that these three offer us. We've seen that you often have as the key figure some kind of pious, reverent, religious man who is suffering by no nameable fault. In none of them is the friend or the lamenter able to say, "That's why this happened."
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, oftentimes they're protesting that I've not done these things. I've done the good, and I've not done the bad, and yet I suffer. Like, that's a keystone-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... overlap with Job. Job does the same thing. He's like, "I've not done bad, and I've done the good. I protected the widow and the orphan. I've kept my mouth from these things. I've done good, and I've not done the bad." And it's holding onto the innocence of the sufferer is what makes this a genre, and I think that's key is I was never really taught to focus on Job's innocence when I read this book, but that is a keystone part of it. What do you do with the innocence of the sufferer instead of what do you do with the goodness of God?
Christine: Yeah, because as we hopefully laid out, the goodness of God is not on the line in Job or even in these other pieces of literature because a good God just isn't something that you can afford to believe.
David: Right
Christine: And that's not to say that Job can't believe in the goodness of Go-
David: Doesn't, yeah, can't believe it, doesn't, yeah
Christine: ... yeah, but even his friends are not accusing. If anything, they accuse Job in holding onto his innocence of accusing God of injustice.
David: Right
Christine: And they are out to get Job for what they think Job is saying in holding onto his innocence, but the goodness of is God good when evil things happen is just-
David: Not the framework
Christine: ... not, not the framework-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... for Job.
David: That's right. So th- that's one of the overlap is the focus is on the innocence of the pious man.
Christine: Yes, and I think maybe to nuance it a little, is innocent suffering a thing? Here is all this literature that's entertaining that idea.
David: Mm.
Christine: And what are we to make of it? What are we to do with it? How can we get out of it?
David: So let me lean in on that. That's good because we are not pretending, nor is the Bible, that innocent suffering doesn't exist, and I think you don't have to be a genius [laughs] to feel justified in asking that question. You look around and you're, you're like, what did that person in that place do to deserve a war breaking out in their land, or what did a child do to warrant enduring a famine or the annexation of their land? What does a baby do to deserve leukemia? Like, these are real-
Christine: They are real and painful questions
David: ... and so painful
Christine: And it's good to know that we're not alone in wrestling with these things or in suffering these things-
David: Right
Christine: ... because people are, you know, putting pen to paper or instrument to-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... clay-
David: Right
Christine: ... and are exploring and wrestling with this, that what could be the reason behind it? Well, the gods made a mistake, or there is a stronger god, or God doesn't love us, or-
David: I didn't do enough to satisfy that god
Christine: ... yes, you are sinful, or, well, everyone's sinful, and-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... that's why this happens-
David: Or God is just evil
Christine: ... and God is angry. Yeah.
David: Yeah
Christine: The world is evil 'cause there are evil spirits about, and you didn't get the right insurance is-
David: Yes
Christine: ... are all reasons we can point to because I guess as humans, that's something that this shows. We are desperate to provide an explanation for the pain we're experiencing.
David: And so to step out on a very shaky limb, but one that I think Job demands us to step out on, is- I think a lot of times I was taught that the answer to the problem of innocent suffering is that it doesn't exist.
Christine: Mm.
David: I was taught that all suffering is in some sense justified because there is no one innocent.
Christine: Hmm, that's what some of Job's friends-
David: Exactly
Christine: ... pre- says like, "Well, you are, no one is pure before God. Everyone's just a maggot." And that's what they tell Job, who feels like one at the moment.
David: Yeah, and-
Christine: And one, that's not helpful advice, and two, is that really what's going on?
David: But Job holds onto his innocence and says, "I'm not suffering because I'm evil."
Christine: Yes.
David: And Job is vindicated on that point by God himself.
Christine: Yes. You can say, so this is where it gets dangerous because the question we bring sometimes in desperation and tears is, why does Job suffer?
David: Mm.
Christine: And we get that answer on the first page-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and it's not helpful.
David: It's-
Christine: It doesn't-
David: ... almost the opposite of helpful. [laughs]
Christine: It's almost the opposite of helpful 'cause then we're like, "Well, why that?"
David: Yeah.
Christine: "Why that?" And-
David: I was processing with a friend recently at community group at our, at our church, and I was talking about how we're doing Job and everything, and he was like, "So why does Job suffer?" Like, he asked me the question. And I was like, "I don't think that's the point of Job." And, you know, so we just kept talking, and eventually he just kept pressing, "Well, why does Job suffer? Why does Job suffer?"
Christine: Mm.
David: And I was like, "Well, we're told at the beginning."
Christine: Yeah, if you paint me into a corner, I can point to-
David: I can point. And I was like, "But I don't think it's gonna be helpful." He's like, "Okay, give me the answer." And I was like, "Okay, it's not gonna be helpful." And I told him, I was like, "God starts testing Job because Satan, like, puts him, puts the screws to God and says, h- you know, or God, God's like, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There, he's blameless. He's upright. There's no one like him.' And then Satan's like, 'Oh, if you take away his hedge of protection and you let him suffer, he'll curse you.'"
Christine: Yeah.
David: And God gives his possessions and his body over to suffering, and that's the answer that we're given. And it's like in our conversation, that only created more questions and more problems for my friend, and eventually we just had to get to the end of the book where God shows up again, and we get the veil torn back, and it's, "Hey, do you know the answer to this ridiculous [laughs] question? Do you know where, you know, why ostriches do this? Do you know where these certain animals are born? Do you know where the line for the sea was set?" No, you don't.
Christine: Yeah.
David: I- if you knew the, the real reason for suffering, it would break your brain.
Christine: Yeah.
David: You're not-
Christine: Well, and it kind of does
David: ... you can't hold it.
Christine: I'd be tempted to despair if I, again, I'm not in a crisis situation right now-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... but it might bear mentioning that the brackets of Job, the first two chapters and the last two chapters of Job, are actually, they could be newer. And so in some ways we don't have that window into heaven and, of what's going on at the beginning that gives us those unhelpful answers [laughs] to what's happening on the ground. We just see the conversation that Job has with his friends, and it keeps everything on Earth. But when we get that window into heaven, it's not very helpful, or it's, it doesn't satisfy-
David: It doesn't satisfy our curiosities.
Christine: Yes, or-
David: Or pain.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: And I think in one way, and I'm just trying to be introspective here, I think I operate out of if I get an answer, that will soothe my pain.
David: Mm.
Christine: And I think Job, one, challenges that and says, "Actually, you have pain, but an answer is not what you need."
David: Yeah, and it never is, right? And anyone who has tried to, either has suffered and had people clumsily try to be with them in suffering, or if you've ever tried to be around someone going through great suffering and-
Christine: Oh, yeah
David: ... tried to clumsily be with them-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... you know how pointless answers are.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And if you don't know, then you hurt someone's feelings.
Christine: Yeah.
David: If you're unaware of it, you, you-
Christine: Go apologize [laughs] to someone
David: ... go apologize to them. You owe someone a deep apology. We were walking with Seth through a really painful part of, of his life. Megan and I didn't know what to do, and we just kept going over to their house and just kind of being around.
Christine: Mm-hmm.
David: And we would see people filter in and out, and they would try to be helpful, and they would say things like, "Hey, God's just testing you right now," or, "Just remember God's good and He's gonna bring good out of this," or-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... whatever. And they're try- And-
Christine: And that, those are true things.
David: Yes.
Christine: Not helpful.
David: Every time they left, Seth and Erica would cry because it just hurt.
Christine: Yeah.
David: It didn't help. And so answers, from a very human point of view, the answers aren't what we need. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so trying to come to Job and go, "It's gonna give me an answer for why this happens in the world," even if it did, it's not what you need.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so innocent suffering is real, and Job addresses it, but maybe not in the way we want it to.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so, okay, that's one of the overlaps is innocent suffering is a real thing, and I think that's helpful. Oh, sorry, we were on a little path to this scary branch I was walking out on, which is we suffer. The reason innocent suffering exists is 'cause it doesn't [laughs] is what a lot of people told me.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Right? Is this idea that everyone suffers because they ultimately deserve it, which I did hear someone parrot to Seth, and it's just, that was the most hurtful one. And it's like, how could I have done something so egregious that this terrible thing would happen to me and my family? And it just doesn't work. And Job talks about it a lot that no one is righteous before God. No one is clean before Him. No one's blameless before Him. And Job's like, "I know that if I went before God, I'd be nothing by comparison. I know He's so much greater than I am. I know I'm a human. I know that, you know, if I was really before Him, He could turn my words around on me just by the nature of me having breath in my lungs, and I would be seen as guilty. I'm not saying I'm innocent by comparison-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... but I am innocent by moral. Like, I didn't do anything to deserve this."
Christine: A shorter way to say it maybe, and coming from the opposite side, is saying you're innocent does not threaten God's holiness or goodness-
David: That's so true
Christine: ... or God's innocence. And for some, like, worldviews, it might. But Job is arguing, if we are taking Job's words, not the words of his friends who are trying to put that on Job-
David: That's right
Christine: ... but Job is saying, "I am not putting anything on God by claiming I am innocent."
David: Yeah, and he constantly has to do that. And so innocent suffering exists. It's not a threat to God's innocence.
Christine: It's not.
David: By saying that there's another innocent person on Earth who's blameless doesn't mean that God's now less holy.
Christine: Yes. Yes. The first time it was posited to me, and I forget where exactly, but basically the idea that, oh, Job didn't sin, and I'm gonna s- go through this story without... And we'll say only at the beginning that we have to define all our terms, and let's define all our terms if we get into this discussion. And do that at home. Just make sure you're defining your terms. [laughs] But it was, like, posited that Job is without sin, and that just broke my categories.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And I remember talking with a friend over lunch, and I was just kind of, like, begging him for answers in a way. This was before I was brave enough to ask you this thing. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Christine: But, um, but I was kinda like, how is it possible to have a person who's not Jesus be innocent-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and without sin? Because I don't have a category for that, and what, is that a faithful way to read the Bible? And this person, he was very, he was a good friend. He wasn't like Job's friends. He was a good friend because he didn't jump into an explanation, but he just softly oriented me in that whirlwind of a question and said, "You know, all the things I believe at, as a Christian, everything I need for my salvation isn't necessarily threatened by whether or not Job had sin or not."
David: Right. [laughs]
Christine: And I'm not doing justice to the few words he said that were very helpful in that moment, but I remember this huge weight coming off my shoulders when I realized that, oh yeah, me even entertaining the idea that maybe Job is without sin is not threatening [laughs] anything or anyone, least of all God, was a big relief to me and gave me the freedom to explore with a bit more openness to, okay, what is Job actually about? So.
David: It's good to name. It's a w- it's a hard thing, I think, for us modern Christians to just accept that Job is innocent, and if you start to question Job's innocent, s- just know you're on the side of the friends who get-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... who get pushback at the end.
Christine: Yeah, 'cause the friends hold that binary intention that says either Job is guilty or God is guilty, and we know God is not, 'cause again, is God good is-
David: We can't even question it
Christine: ... a no-brainer. Is God good is out of the question. God is good, and if God is good, then Job has to be guilty.
David: Yes.
Christine: And so they come up with, like, surely you have a hidden sin. Surely you have done something. Surely you've harbored something, or everyone is just sinful before God's sight-
David: We're just humans
Christine: ... and that's why you're suffering.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, you are human, therefore you're guilty. And these are all reasons that they bring to Job, and Job is saying, "No-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... I can be innocent, and so can God."
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And I just think it opens up such a different world for so many of us when we look at the indisputable suffering that exists in our world, and we want to ask the same questions or justifications that the friends ask. We're just like, "Why is all this happening? There's gotta be some kind of ordered reasoning to it, X plus Y equals Z somewhere." It instead is gonna open us up into a different set of questions about who is God, how big is He, what is He up to? Okay, we gotta move on. We've just talked about one of the overlaps, which is innocent suffering. They all have an innocent sufferer in their literary stories. Another one is the community's wisest all fail. And so you've got the Babylonians, diviners, and exorcists, this whole system of, uh, sagesayers and singers and omen readers and all these things. They, they can't figure out why he's suffering. The most eloquent lamenters can't quite put to words why this is happening, and they just have to lay bare their lament before their god. The libations aren't working the right way. With the Babylonian theodicy, the friend, the wise friend comes and just says, "Just keep doing the thing. Just keep doing the ritual. Just keep libating your god. Eventually it'll work." And he's like, "No, it won't because of all these reasons." And eventually the friend just has to say, "Well, you know, the gods and us, we're all evil, and so it's, it just stinks." And so all the wisest fail. In Job, that happens as well because you have these elders who come, and they offer ad nauseam arguments to why this is happening. And then when they fail, Elihu, the young one, step- steps up with great zeal and vigor and tries to give an explanation, and it fails. And so the wisest aren't able to bring the right answer, and that's a common theme throughout this genre.
Christine: Yeah, which I think that translates into saying that this is beyond human wisdom.
David: Yes.
Christine: Because what you're not saying is the people thought that their elders were stupid. [laughs]
David: No.
Christine: It was a way of saying that the ways of the gods is beyond human comprehension and even manipulation, despite all of our [laughs] efforts to do so.
David: Yes.
Christine: Humans, even the wisest, cannot harness the wisdom of the gods.
David: That's right. That's the whole point of bringing up the elders, bringing up-
Christine: Yes
David: ... the mentors.
Christine: Yes. You bring up the people on the frontier and have them admit to blindness to real, to help you realize, okay, if they can't get it, I cannot.
David: Exactly.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so that's the point that these mentors and diviners and elders, friends are playing.
Christine: It's ad- it's admitting the in- inevitable gap between the human and divine.
David: Yeah, that even-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... our wisest can't figure this out. We need something different, which is kind of the overlap of three, which is at the end, they all reach past every human resource- Toward the divine for an answer that no expert can give.
Christine: Yeah. Or in a way it's like saying like an answer won't do.
David: That's right.
Christine: Right? It's-
David: An answer won't do.
Christine: Yeah.
David: The sentence doesn't feel right coming out of my lips, [laughs] but that is in a sense kind of what the Marduk story does, is he just gets healed and there's no answer. 'Cause he wanted relief, not an answer.
Christine: Yeah.
David: You know? He, he knew he couldn't get an answer, so he-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... he was like, "Just-
Christine: Well, and it's similar to Job too
David: ... get me out of the suffering."
Christine: Because Job, people say like, "Oh, God restores Job's fortunes because he was good." Well, that's reading into the text.
David: That is.
Christine: God does not say, "Because you suffered and persevered, I'm going to restore your fortune." God just does it.
David: Yep.
Christine: He-
David: Yeah, Job d-
Christine: There's no explanation as to why
David: ... Job at the beginning doesn't say, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away, and then the Lord gives again. Blessed be the name of the Lord." [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. He just, and he tells his wife, he's like-
David: Why would we accept good from God's hand and not ill?
Christine: Yeah. If we accept good from God, we should accept evil from God, and in that He doesn't sin. And so interestingly, and you pointed this out, that Job does not ask to have his fortunes restored.
David: No.
Christine: He asks for other things, which we'll get into, but-
David: We will
Christine: ... what he doesn't ask for is to be restored to his original-
David: No
Christine: ... status.
David: Yeah, but he is reaching toward the divine.
Christine: Yes.
David: Like all of these do.
Christine: Yes.
David: One's trying to soothe the heart of a god, the other's trying to understand what the god wants. The other one is trying to see if there's any sense among a divine council that is over his world that would keep him libating the gods. Like, everyone's trying to see beyond, which is really interesting, I guess. The thing I'm, I'm thinking of right now that I guess I haven't processed before is that something suffering does is it causes us to reach outside of the human experience into the realm of something different 'cause we want to make sense of why this is happening. And for Job, for the Babylonians, for all these other theodicies we're reading, they knew that they didn't live alone in the world. They knew that the material world wasn't the only thing that existed. And so they knew that the other spiritual powers and evil forces had to be at, somewhat at play in the suffering of humanity.
Christine: Yeah. Your relationship with the unseen was not peripheral or something that, no, it was central to surviving well in the world.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Because those who are unseen are way more powerful than those who are seen, and you needed to make sure you were on the right terms with the strongest one up there.
David: That's right. And so we've seen at least three ways in which these genres overlap. There's a reverent man who's done no nameable thing, innocent suffering. Number two, the community's wisest end up failing. No one can give an answer, and so at least number three, they reach toward the divine for an answer, for relief, for something. So those are kind of some of the overlaps. There's surely plenty more that people are probably intuiting, but those are our, our call-outs here. We also have hinted at or even named several distinctions through this, but they're worth reviewing. One is what is the sufferer, the innocent sufferer looking for? What are they lamenting about? What are they seeking to know? What are they trying to accomplish in the text? And for the three that we've looked at today, they want relief. They want to stop suffering. They want to get the god appeased, figure out what the god wants, so that they can get out of the suffering, so that they can get a new protective spirit, so that they can be rescued, so that the illness will be taken away, so that the heart of the god will be soothed. Why? Because they want to stop suffering.
Christine: Yes. They'll even give up their dignity or their innocence and say, "Okay, I'm guilty," 'cause clearly all people are, and whatever you say, Marduk or fill in the gap, or even with Eloquent Peasant, I think he's just like, "Yeah, I'm a nobody. I do my..." I can't even remember. Go back and look at it maybe, but-
David: But yes
Christine: ... there's this sacrificing even of, of dignity-
David: Mm
Christine: ... for the sake of ending suffering.
David: That is so true, is they do end up giving up their dignity, which I think is another key difference, is that the innocence of the sufferer is almost never kept in m- pretty much all of these other theodicies in one way or another. Either it's a total renunciation of their innocence so that they could just do a blanket repentance to hopefully calm the heart of the god against them. There is a blanket statement of just, well, humanity's evil, and since I'm part of humanity, I must be evil. Or not only evil, it's just, well, I'm human, I'm a maggot, and so therefore I'm not God, so I just repent of being human. Sorry. Please help. Or sometimes they'll renounce their gods and they'll just go, "Well, this one's not taking care of me. I'll roam about and find another one." And so there's some renunciation either of innocence or fidelity that the other ones end up saying that Job refuses to say starkly. He will not give up his God and he will not give up his innocence.
Christine: Yes. He responds to his wife saying that, "We will. God is not worth cursing even in this moment. We accept good and evil from Him. God is innocent, and we bless His name." And then to the friends-
David: "I'm innocent"
Christine: ... "I'm innocent, and I won't give that up either." And so it's interesting how Job, and it makes you wonder why, Job, are you clinging so much to your innocence when it's almost entertained that just admit it. Surely there's some- Like, God will find something surely. He is God. And Job just doubles down and he's like, "I'm not giving up my innocence," which makes this a great contribution to the genre of innocent suffering.
David: Mm.
Christine: 'Cause here is uniquely a sufferer who will not budge on his own innocence before God-
David: Mm
Christine: ... while acknowledging that he and God are, you know, obviously different. But it's an interesting angle to the whole dilemma of innocent suffering that- Even in our world today, you can, you know, you can get out of suffering, you can end your suffering by, "Okay, sure, guilty," you know, and then you'll get a less worse sentence or something.
David: Yeah, take a plea sentence. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. And there are ways of alleviating suffering by compromising your integrity.
David: Mm.
Christine: And here's someone who just for the life of him will not.
David: That's right.
Christine: He craves death and still will not give up his integrity.
David: Yeah. So that's a big difference is the others give up their integrity. Job will not. Like we just mentioned, there's a big difference between all of them are- and they're willing to do anything to find relief from suffering. Job never asks for relief from suffering except maybe in death.
Christine: Yeah, say that again 'cause I don't, I think that's easily missed when [laughs] you read through-
David: It's so missed
Christine: ... Job.
David: And I didn't, I don't, I don't think I noticed it until I was reading the other ones. The other literature sh- shows innocent sufferers who will do anything to, to put an end to their suffering, who will find relief from their suffering. But Job is holding onto his innocence, but does not want relief from his suffering. He's not looking for the suffering to end. He's never asking for it to end. And so instead, Job is looking for something different, and it's something that pretty much no other theodicy is looking for, and it's that he's looking for vindication, which is so different from what everyone else is looking for because they don't believe they can be vindicated, which is why they ultimately end up giving up their innocence because they know there's no vindication for them because the gods aren't the kinds that would do that kind of thing.
Christine: Yeah. We know what God thinks of Job in heaven 'cause he says that-
David: He's blameless.
Christine: Yes. And in a way, Job asking for vindication is Job asking God, "Say that in front of everyone."
David: Yeah, that's exactly. That's what we mean by vindication-
Christine: Yes
David: ... is Job knows that somehow because of his innocence, because of who God is, he will have a moment when his suffering doesn't have the final word over who he is, that his integrity and God's integrity will out in the end. And what's amazing about Job uniquely is that he's willing to go to death to prove it. He prays for death to overtake him and just be uncreated, and then he'll be vindicated, but no one in Job's world would see death as vindication. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, and it's interesting that his friends are trying to get him to confess anything and, you know, admit his guilt so that God would save him from death, and Job is like, "You are not hearing me. I am asking for death. [laughs] Like, death is not a threat to me. It's preferable to my current state, and you're asking me to compromise what I am holding on to be true in order to escape death. I would rather just have death take me 'cause at least even in death I will have God."
David: That's right. So it's a very big difference. Another big difference is Job is never trying to offer a formula for how to fix this. His friends are-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... but Job himself is never trying to find a formula. He's not-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... "Well, I've tried libating and sacrificing and repenting, and I've brought o- on the soothsayers, and, like, I gathered all you guys, my friends, my elders, and help me out. Help me figure out how to get out of this."
Christine: Job didn't ask for any of this-
David: He didn't
Christine: ... really. He was just trying to cry because life got hard-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... and then all these friends turn it into a court case against him.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And so he's not looking for a formula to fix it. If anything, he is just looking for the face of God.
Christine: Yes.
David: He just wants an encounter with God because he knows that when that happens, even if it ruins him, he'll have his answers, and he'll-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... meet the God, and he'll be vindicated. And, like, he's just looking to meet God. He's not trying to fix the situation. He just wants to meet the God that he puts his trust in-
Christine: Yeah. He's in-
David: ... which is so different.
Christine: Yeah. He's in deep grief.
David: He is. And so another difference is, and we've talked quite a bit about this one, so I'll just do it quickly, I think, unless it sparks something [laughs] huge here. But it's a difference in how is the divine, how is the, the, how are the gods known, and how are they acted upon or moved? And so all of the theodicies of the ancient Near East that we've looked at, they basically say that the gods really can't be known, that you can't quite figure out what they want, so you just have to try to keep them happy. But you can move them even if you don't know them, and you can kind of twist their hearts and placate their hearts and propitiate them in certain ways to make them favorable towards you or get them to draft a stronger spirit to your side. You can't really know them, but you can move them. Job, on the other hand, there, there's some sense in which they know what God requires. They seem to have a sense of the morality of God in imaging him. They talk about taking care of orphans and widows and protecting the sojourners and strangers in their town and doing justice and promoting the health of the city that they're in and taking in homeless people into his own home. And these are all very, like, God things that, you know, there's a morality here that's not just ritualistic and not just something that's, "Well, yeah, I know how to make my God happy." It's, "I know what God requires of me. I know what innocence and righteousness looks like, and I've done those things." And yet Job the person [laughs] never dares to say he can change God's heart towards him, that he can do something to affect the heart of God to make him favorable. He can- he knows he can't twist or manipulate God's heart through any kind of sacrifice or performance, and that's not on the line for Job. So he's like, "I, I think I know what God expects of me, and I think I did it, at least in some sense."
Christine: Yeah.
David: "There's nothing else I need to know in order to perform something to placate this God." That's not in his sight at all.
Christine: Yeah.
David: But his friends, quite the opposite. They're like, "Oh, if you just repent," or, "You know, your kids probably did something," or, you know, "Just repent for them," or, you know, "Own up to something that you've done, and then this will all turn," or, "His wife, curse God, and just let him kill you," or there's something you can do to move the hand of this God. And Job is instead just asking for an audience so that the God can speak for himself. So that's a difference that we've talked about.
Christine: Yeah, different but with nuance.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like, something that's so powerful about Job and these other Bits of literature as well, but looking at Job is that the things that the friends say are true if you take them out of context, but the logic that pieces them together makes them quite dangerous to believe and receive. And Job keeps responding and asks them to please stop talking [laughs] to him.
David: [laughs]
Christine: But it's interesting how quickly and easily we can take truths we know about God and about how He runs the world and ourselves, and then when suffering hits, the way we piece those truths together, the logic will end up forcing us either to condemn ourselves or to condemn God or to give up in despair. And the Book of Job offers us another way, another option. Is an innocent sufferer a thing-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... is kind of what it comes back to.
David: Yeah, which is why it's wisdom literature, and why it's not our only bit of wisdom literature too, which is amazing, is that Job defending the category of innocent suffering and holding onto it with integrity does not overturn the fact that God lets the evil of people turn back around on itself and destroy them.
Christine: No.
David: It, it doesn't mean that He doesn't reward the righteous or help the orphan or those who call out to Him or destroy the wicked. God does those things.
Christine: He does. And Job is fighting for the box that says the innocent suffer-
David: Yes
Christine: ... in a way.
David: That's right.
Christine: And he uses, like, everyday circumstances to show that, too. But even in the way of thinking about, or the way I was trying to kind of visualize it, which putting a grid on something is seldom helpful, but [laughs] if you think of two columns and two rows, so four boxes-
David: Mm
Christine: ... and there is good things and evil things, and good people and evil people. Now, do bad things happen to evil people? Does evil happen to evil people? Can we fill in that box?
David: Yes, we can.
Christine: Yes, we can. Do good things happen to good people?
David: Yes.
Christine: Yes.
David: We've seen that a lot.
Christine: We can fill in, so g-
David: "Blessed is the man who..." Yeah.
Christine: Yes. I was thinking of someone this morning.
David: Exactly.
Christine: I was like, "Oh, what is blessing?"
David: Yep.
Christine: What is prospering?
David: [laughs]
Christine: Need, need to dive into that.
David: Another time, yes.
Christine: But so we can fill, easily fill in the boxes of g-
David: Evil happens to evil, good happens to good
Christine: ... good happens to good. And then-
David: Does good happen to evil?
Christine: Does good happen to evil people? Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Job does p- pose that, that-
David: Lots of psalms point that out.
Christine: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Christine: There are evil people who have prosperity, who enjoy a good life, who die full of flocks and children, and they don't get what's coming to them, as it were, in this life.
David: Right.
Christine: So good things happen to evil people. We can tick that box, too, sadly, and that's frustrating. That's hard to grapple with. And what Job insists on is that that fourth box, can evil things happen to good people-
David: Exists
Christine: ... exist.
David: Yes.
Christine: And filling in those four boxes does not jeopardize God's goodness, God's innocence, nor does it have to jeopardize an innocent sufferer.
David: That's right. Not to paint a grid for everyone and say, "Live by this grid," but it is helpful. And I think you're right. Job is fighting. That fourth box does, in fact, exist. And in a sense, I think he's taking the easier argument of the third box exists, of good things happen to evil people, which the friends have trouble stomaching, but eventually they find a way around it.
Christine: Yeah.
David: That, "Oh, well, God'll just punish their kids."
Christine: Yeah. And Job-
David: And it's like [laughs] Job pushes back-
Christine: ... pushes back on that, too
David: ... on that, too.
Christine: Which we'll get into-
David: We'll get into it
Christine: ... the argument, but it's-
David: But it's the fourth box-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... th- that is really unique to Job and, and really important for understanding suffering. We've mentioned another difference is God's control over the spiritual realm. All of these pieces of literature speak about this in some way, that there is a higher power in the spiritual realm, a more powerful force that can dispel or commission lower spirits to do things or fight or hurt or protect, and it's this marketplace of patrons and thrones and protection. And a lot of times in the theodicies we've looked at, it is the innocent sufferer or their mentor trying to get them to interact with that spiritual world in such a way that it gains protection or relief for them.
Christine: You might say there is a hierarchy of power in the worlds that these pieces of literature are painting, and by that I mean, like, there are big spirits and there are little spirits.
David: Yeah.
Christine: There are spirits that are stronger than others, and you want to appease the strong ones and get them to help you so that they can overthrow the little ones.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Or, or even there's an evil bad one. Make sure you're on the good side of that evil bad one so that he doesn't lay it into you. And so there's this hierarchy of power, of, like, who's stronger, who's less stronger, who's in control in this part of the mountain and who's in control in that part of the river. But what there isn't really in those is a hierarchy of authority.
David: Mm.
Christine: There isn't one God who controls them all. You might say to the strongest baddie that, "Oh, you, you're definitely the strongest. You, everyone does your bidding," but you say that in a way that will make them happy, and it's not acknowledging that no, there is, there's a hierarchy of authority as well. There is one God above all others.
David: Yeah. And Job shows us a hierarchy of authority and power-
Christine: Yes
David: ... that God, Yahweh-
Christine: Mm-hmm
David: ... has authority over the Satan-
Christine: Yes
David: ... that does this affliction, and he's leashed and hedged in.
Christine: Yes.
David: And he does things to Job, but only under the authority of a higher throne.
Christine: Yes. Yes, and you can see that with the lens of hi- hierarchy of power, too, because yes, God is stronger than Satan, 100%.
David: Yep.
Christine: I think the nuance that Job puts on that is that ultimate authority cannot be manipulated.
David: Yes.
Christine: No one can do that. I can't do that. No power can do that. And so sacrifices, even, like, confessing my sin is not necessarily gonna get Him to do anything.
David: Yeah, which Job-
Christine: Which is-
David: ... kinda says, in a sense
Christine: ... it's dangerous to go there, 'cause I'm like, "Okay, what do we mean by that?" But it's-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... it's what we're- Offer to
David: It's what Job is wrestling with.
Christine: Wrestle with. Yeah.
David: Yeah. So I wanna come back to this idea as we close here of the main difference, well, that's probably an overstatement. One of the key differences between Job and other theodicy literature is what is righteousness, and does the innocent sufferer hold onto it, and what are they looking to achieve by it? Because that fourth box of bad things happening to good people, they all hold exists in a sense. Some of them give it up. They give up their innocence. They're like, "Well, I must have done something. I give up."
Christine: Yeah.
David: Job doesn't. That's a difference.
Christine: Yeah. They all start by holding onto their innocence.
David: Yes.
Christine: But only Job is willing to die for it.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Christine: You know?
David: And that's because Job is looking for something different, and we've said this, but this is where I want us to land here, is everyone else is looking for relief from suffering, but Job is looking for vindication even through suffering.
Christine: Yes.
David: And that is such a big difference because all the other theodicy literature is looking for an answer for how do I appease God to get out of this suffering. Job is saying, "How do I even die in my suffering trusting that I'll be vindicated by God and that my suffering won't have its final word?"
Christine: What you just said was very, very helpful. You said the other sufferers in the wisdom literatures that we looked at are trying to appease their gods to avoid suffering.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: In other words, the only reason why there's even anything we could call a relationship between these humans and the powerful deities that terrorize the heavens is avoid suffering.
David: Yeah.
Christine: How can I avoid suffering? Will I appease this one, appease that one, this insurance, that insurance, and then I'm good. So in a way, appeasing the gods is serving me.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And you're saying that what Job is insisting on, that he has, is not absence of suffering. What he wants is God.
David: He wants God.
Christine: He wants the relationship-
David: He doesn't want
Christine: ... he had with God to be restored, and he prays for that-
David: He does
Christine: ... and asks for that. And it's not so much his good life that he misses but God's face shining on him, and he's like, "It's because I was intimate and close to God that all these good things happened, that I was able to even image him in the first place. And now that he's treated me like an enemy, I want my God back."
David: I want my friend back.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: I want God, not my stuff.
David: Yeah. He would rather lose all his stuff even unto death-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... because he knows that even if I go into the grave, my eyes will see God again even from the grave, which is-
Christine: Which is
David: ... a radical thing to say that long ago. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. And it's in Job that we see-
David: Resurrection
Christine: ... a lot of hints of resurrection and trusting in God to resurrect the dead, which is really cool.
David: Yeah. And so I think this is the key here, everyone. I think this is what Christine and I are gonna try to wrestle with alongside you as we walk through Job, and I think it's shown in where Job is positioned in the church calendar when it's read, I think is really helpful because that just shows that the church, for the longest time, [laughs] for over a thousand years, has understood Job this way, is that Job is read during Passion Week, during-
Christine: Holy Week
David: ... Holy Week, during the week leading up to Jesus's death. Why? Because Jesus is the innocent sufferer, and he wanted vindication and to be glorified and to be back with God even through suffering. And so if we argue that innocent suffering doesn't exist, we rule out, in a sense, Jesus himself as the innocent sufferer. And so what's amazing about this is the different narrative that Job offers us, especially in light of the cross over and against the pagan view, that we can suffer even as God hands us over to it, even as innocently as Christ if we could ever achieve such a thing, and yet we can hold fast to I am still innocent. God is still good. I will take this innocent suffering to the grave, and what's on the other side is vindication and resurrection, is that I want to know that at least for my part, the goal of innocent suffering is for me to do it well, is for me to carry it even unto death because that's what Jesus did. And I can follow him to the cross even though that doesn't always feel like good news. I know he's there, and I know he's meeting me in innocent suffering, that he's in the grave of innocent suffering, and that he's in the vindication and resurrection and ascension of the innocent sufferer and that I can walk through the path of suffering because he's turned it into the path of vindication and glory. And so I think that's one of the unique things that Job is doing as opposed to the ancient Near Eastern theodicies that we've peered at today, is that he's gesturing forward to the innocent suffering of Christ and the vindication over suffering and death that he accomplished in his resurrection. So I don't know. Those are kind of my, like, rounded out thoughts about vindication. Jesus isn't trying to appease God to try to get him to stop suffering.
Christine: No.
David: Right? Like, that is so different than these ancient Near Eastern theodicies. In no way is Jesus, whenever he's going through his Passion, does he look to God and say, "God, what do I need to do to get you to stop doing this to me?" Right?
Christine: Yeah.
David: Instead, he suffers well.
Christine: Yeah. And he laments like Job.
David: He does.
Christine: He's like, "Why have you forsaken me?"
David: Yeah.
Christine: He is derelict and sad and mourning, and he's surrounded by accusers who mock him and say, "Well, prove that God loves you."
David: Yep.
Christine: "Come down from the cross, and we'll believe you."
David: He's surrounded by really bad friends.
Christine: They are offering... Yeah. They offer ways out of suffering.
David: Satan did, too.
Christine: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Which-
David: Which I think we're gonna talk about in the next episode.
Christine: Yeah. We need to go into all of that-
David: Yeah
Christine: ... because it's huge, but yeah. Knowing that innocent suffering is not without God because of what Jesus went through is Really good news.
David: Mm.
Christine: And we mentioned this earlier that, like, answers to sufferers are not helpful.
David: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And we're not trying to go back on that and say, "Well, knowing that Jesus..." No, we're just trying to point to Jesus and-
David: That's right
Christine: ... tell his story in the midst of this, and-
David: To say that in a different way, we're trying to point to Jesus' story to say that Jesus was vindicated, and hear me everyone, don't clip this, okay? [laughs] Doesn't make the cross good news, doesn't make the fact that Jesus suffered was like, "Oh, nevermind, that was fine." No, that was an atrocity, and it was painful and horrible, right? But for the joy set before him, he endured it, but that still was an enduring.
Christine: Yeah.
David: And yes, the cross is good news. Don't pull quote me here, okay? [laughs] But, like, I'm just saying it doesn't mean that because he knew what was going to happen, because he trusted in the vindication of the Lord-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... that made his suffering, "Oh, that was so easy to bear then."
Christine: Yeah.
David: So even though Jesus knew the answer, he cried tears of blood, right? Like, the answer doesn't even help Jesus in a sense of m- may, oh, well, then the cup is so easy to bear. No.
Christine: Yeah.
David: You can know the, uh, this is another tension, right? You can know the answers and yet still suffer horrendously and difficult, in a d- very difficult way. It doesn't make the suffering easier, but maybe it helps you not renounce God in the process.
Christine: It gives companionship in the suffering.
David: Yeah.
Christine: It shows that you are not alone. It doesn't answer other things.
David: Right.
Christine: And that's probably good.
David: Yeah, I think it is. It's blowing my mind right now to, I've never thought about Jesus this way as one who knows the plan. He knows the answers. He knows chapter one and the end. He knows the beginning and the end, and trusts it, fully trusts it, and yet is still, "If there's any other way, let this cup pass." Like, it's still, suffering is still so hard, and yet he endured. Like, he went through the worst we could do to him because he knew that God is good and that he is innocent. He held both. He didn't need more answers. He didn't need more explanation. He just wanted to see God again, and he wanted to maintain his innocence. [laughs]
Christine: Yeah, and in a way, the questions my brain tries to go after only decuples with the picture of Jesus on the cross-
David: Mm
Christine: ... 'cause He is Job and the theophany all in one. At that point, I'm like, my brain's exploded on the floor, and I have no answers. But there's something else that's not my brain that is comforted or that sees God in a different way, and I can't quite put words to it. But yeah, the Son of God suffering on the cross is a whole other mystery, a whole other theodicy that I can't put sounds to because I can't even put words to Job's suffering. But it's in light of the cross that we are able to see Job's suffering and our suffering and draw a different type, type of healing and comfort.
David: Yeah. I think you and I, as we've just been reading it too, Job is not just doing something to our brains, right? [laughs] It's doing something to our hearts, and it's like we started the episode with, it's opening us up with a lot of open hands and humility, going, we don't have answers, and this is just kind of breaking our heart for suffering. But it's also increasing our faith in the God who vindicates, and that doesn't solve suffering, [laughs] but it also doesn't demand a formula. And so it's-
Christine: Yeah
David: ... it's just doing something to your heart.
Christine: Yeah. The answer to suffering is not a formula.
David: No, it's not, and when we try to make it one, we either become Job's friends or maybe a Babylonian.
Christine: We hurt ourselves even more.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Christine: Or those we're trying to comfort.
David: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
David: So, okay, a bit of a lay of the land as we wrap up here. I think next episode we're gonna try to talk about Satan, who plays a, a unique role in this story. He is active, yet hemmed in, and he's doing things to Job, but Job is talking to God, and this isn't the only part in the Bible that Satan does something like this. We see him in the garden. We see him in the wilderness. So how do we read those all in conversation with each other? I think we're gonna try to do that next episode. We're gonna walk through the argument between Job and his friends. I think that will be really helpful, just kind of tracing the argument they have back and forth in another episode. And then I think we're also gonna make sure we have an episode just on the theophany, when God appears in the whirlwind, and try to grapple with all the questions that we can't answer there. So it's a bit of the lay of the land, and we'll see what else pops up along the way.
Christine: You just scared everyone away.
David: I know, but you can innocently suffer through this podcast. [laughs]
Christine: I will talk to you. [laughs]
David: Great. I at least have Christine here.
Christine: No one has to hear this conversation. [laughs]
David: Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us. We're so grateful for you. Be sure if you enjoy the podcast to go over to SpokenGospel.com and become a monthly supporter to make sure we can continue doing stuff like this. If you have any questions, you can send those to [email protected], or you can record your question at speakpipe.com/spokengospel, and we would love to interact with you in all of those places. So thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time.
Christine: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit SpokenGospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]