Seth: some men were taking-
David: Yes
Seth: -advantage of people sexually, other people were taking advantage of others financially.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's addressing them both at the same moment.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he says, like, "These are both related to love, brotherly love, affectionate love, and you should not be doing either of these things."
David: Yeah, like it's-
Seth: God- God is not a God who takes advantage of people.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everybody, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are in our second conversation, looking at the letter of 1 Thessalonians. Last time, we looked at how the church in Thessalonia... Thessalonia?
Seth: Thessaloniki.
David: Thessaloniki, Thessalonica-
Seth: Yep
David: ... um, w- was, like, they had, like, a three-week crash course with Paul [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, uh, yeah-
Seth: It went three w- three weeks of Bible school. [chuckles]
David: Yep, the- yet that word was functioning in them so powerfully because Jesus was working in them, that they became this church that was resilient through the suffering that they had to go through because of the local persecution.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Paul is writing to them, thanking God for the word that's been at work within them.
Seth: Yep.
David: And, uh, and we kind of talked a little bit about how the-
Seth: How the-
David: ... suffering advances the gospel, and we also talked about how it's God working in us that really sanctifies and transforms us, and makes us resilient through suffering.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now, today, we're gonna be talking about the coming of the Lord.
Seth: Among other things.
David: Among other things.
Seth: Yeah, Paul-
David: I think you can tell I'm just excited about one thing.
Seth: You, you can tell... E- everybody's excited-
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... about one thing at the end of 1 Thessalonians. But Paul, after, like, th- praying for three chapters, kind of pivots, and he has, like, three major categories of teaching-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he wants to talk to, to his, uh, the Thessalonians about, and he wants them to be sanctified. He says, "This is God's will for your life, that you would be sanctified."
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, which is really interesting.
David: Which just means holy.
Seth: Which means, yeah, becoming more holy.
David: Yeah, you-
Seth: Uh-
David: ... which is- which then just means becoming like God.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Becoming more like Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, as he acted on the Earth.
David: Leviticus said, "Be holy, as I am holy."
Seth: Be sanctifi- uh, be holy, yeah.
David: Yeah, and yeah, which means, "Look like me."
Seth: That's right.
David: "Do the things I do, live the way I live, think the things I think."
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and so the process of becoming holy is sanctification.
Seth: That's right.
David: They actually have the same root... word.
Seth: In- yeah, that's right.
David: It's holification.
Seth: Holification.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: Becoming more like God, and-
David: So he wants them to be sanctified
Seth: ... in particularly three areas.
David: Okay.
Seth: One, concerning their sex lives.
David: Oh.
Seth: W-
David: All right.
Seth: Always, always-
David: Here we go
Seth: ... uh, another, uh, concerning their, like, work ethic.
David: Oh, yeah?
Seth: And finally, uh, concerning their grief.
David: Mm.
Seth: What does it mean to be whole? Grieve in a way that accords with the resurrected Christ.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, and those are the three things that he talks about.
David: All right.
Seth: And he folds in the talk of the coming of the Lord in his exhortation, uh, in his teaching to them about how to become holy as it relates to grief.
David: Okay. These seem like random topics.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and I'm trying to, like, put them together, because last time we talked about how Timothy... You know, they had to f- uh, so Paul and Silas had to flee Thessalonica whenever the, the Jewish persecution broke out, and so they didn't get to stay and teach the church as long as they wanted to. And so Paul sends Timothy back to the church to, like, hear news of how things are going in Thessalonica, and Timothy reports back that, one, even though they're suffering, they're staying faithful, and it's growing. Two, that, uh, some rumors have been spreading that Paul and Silas were just there teaching for money, and we talked about both of those-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... last time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then the third thing we talked about was there are just some deficiencies in what Paul was able to teach them in the time that they had.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he needs to come back and address those. Is that kind of the category to put that in, or-
Seth: Well, uh, yes and no.
David: Okay.
Seth: So what's really interesting about the book k- of 1 Thessalonians, is that it contains several uses of the phrase, "As I've already told you," or-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "I have no need to teach you about,"
David: Right
Seth: ... or, "I mentioned previously that..." And so Paul, in most of these cases, is reminding them of things he's already taught them.
David: When he was with them.
Seth: When he was with them.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's just offering further encouragement along those lines.
David: Okay.
Seth: And I think two examples will be helpful here-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to, like, r- to, like, emphasize why he's doing that. So he brings up in his work ethic section a, a, a command to not be idle, to, like, to, to work hard, as he and Silas worked hard.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They were... You know, worked a day job, so they wouldn't be a burden to anybody else.
David: Oh, right, yes.
Seth: He's like, and some people in Thessalonica were not working hard, and taking advantage of the generosity of others-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by not working. So he's like, "You shouldn't do that," and he says that in his first letter, and he mentions that he said that to them personally-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... uh, while he was there on the ground. And then in 2 Thessalonians, that issue comes up again, and it gets an entire chapter.
David: Okay.
Seth: So there seems to be, like, a problem that he was not able to get to the root of while he was on the ground in Thessalonica.
David: And he addressed it, but it went deeper.
Seth: It went deeper. Timothy says, "This is still a problem. You should address it again."
David: I see.
Seth: He addresses it again, and then by the time the second letter rolls around, it's, like, such a problem that he spends a whole passa- a whole chapter discussing it.
David: Okay.
Seth: And another one would've been, um... Another example, it's a smaller example.
David: Mm.
Seth: At the very end of chapter five, Paul just gives 14, like, rapid-fire commands. [chuckles] Uh, "Rejoice always!"
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Like, "Do all these things," right? Um, and one of them is to test and judge prophecies well.
David: Mm.
Seth: And one of the things that he mentions in 2 Thessalonians is that there have been prophecies that have come up that have contradicted Paul.
David: Ah.
Seth: So they failed to, um-... test prophecies accurately.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So a lot of what's happening is here, he's reminding these new believers of things he's already taught them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But at the same time, there are some gaps in their knowledge.
David: That's right, and Timothy's reporting on that to Paul, and Paul's addressing that in his letter.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: And-
David: So yeah, I just, again, it just-
Seth: But why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the randomness of these things?
David: Right.
Seth: But I think on another level, it's like, what's more perennial and global in scope than sex, worth, and work, and death?
David: Yeah. Uh, I mean, uh, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, it's like these things-
David: That's true.
Seth: [laughs] Like, these are, like, uh, the things of human living.
David: Yeah, that's true.
Seth: And it's like, how- what should you do with your body?
David: What should you do with your money and your effort?
Seth: And what should you do-
David: When people die
Seth: ... when people die? [laughs]
David: Like, these are- [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's true. They're very big issues.
Seth: [laughs] So it's-
David: That's fair.
Seth: So it's, like, in some sense, they don't feel exactly random either.
David: Yeah, they're, they're core issues, uh, that will come up when somebody converts from the kingdom of the world to the kingdom of heaven.
Seth: Right, because everybody has an opinion about-
David: Right
Seth: ... what you should do, how you should have sex, and how you should- what your work ethics should be-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and what you- happens when you die.
David: What to do with your body, your money, and your dead.
Seth: Yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: These, like, these are, like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... everybody, like, these are basic dis-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... discipleship 101.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh-
David: That's, that's helpful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the other side of it is we're only getting one half of the conversation.
Seth: That's right.
David: Is, like, there were... They, they had a history. They had, they had spent hours and hours and hours and hours together-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... teaching, asking questions, learning about each other's lives, and now Timothy's telling him everything that's going on, and he's just writing the other side of the conversation, and so-
Seth: That's right
David: ... what might seem random to us is actually very pastoral and calculated on Paul's side.
Seth: That's right. [upbeat music]
David: Okay, cool. Let's jump in. Where do you wanna start?
Seth: So let's, let's talk about sex. [laughs]
David: Maybe.
Seth: Maybe. Um-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Chapter 4, uh, verse 1: "Finally then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are already doing, that you do so more and more. For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus." So he's just saying, "Keep doing what you're doing."
David: Yep.
Seth: "You already know everything we taught you. This is the will of God, your sanctification."
David: Right.
Seth: "You are becoming more holy. Uh, and in particular, let's start off with that you abstain from sexual immorality-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that each one of you learns to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion or lust like the Gentiles who do not know God," so referring to their pagan, Gre- Grecian, Thessalonican culture, that, "And no one transgress and wrong his brother and sister in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, as we told you before and solemnly warned you."
David: Mm.
Seth: So apparently, I think much of Greece, and Thessalonica in particular, was known for its, like, um, sexually permissive lifestyle that favored men's expression of sexual pleasure-
David: Right
Seth: ... at the expense of those of lower social classes than them.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh, so what he's pointing out here is, like, "Okay, you're Christians now. You don't act like the gods of the Greeks."
David: Right-
Seth: "You act-
David: ... who were always committing incest and-
Seth: Doing all sorts of things with humans
David: ... all kinds of terrible things and, yeah.
Seth: Uh, you act like the God of the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You control yourself, not for, not for taking advantage of other people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but for-
David: Yeah, you don't, you don't use your body to take advantage of other people below your station. You use the facilities of your body to serve and bless those, and it's like, yeah, you were called to purity, not impurity.
Seth: Yes, you're called to holiness.
David: Holiness.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then related to this, he says this. "Therefore..." Uh, he says, "Now concerning brotherly love-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you have no need for anybody to write you." So it's interesting. He, like, stacks these, all these commands about proper use of your body during sex-
David: Right
Seth: ... and tacks it on to commands about brotherly love.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says, "You're already doing the brotherly love part really well. You have no need to, for anyone to write you about this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another. For that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs, um, and w- to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one."
David: Mm.
Seth: So apparently, what was happening is not only were some of the men in Thessalonica just not educated enough or, like, convicted enough of a biblical way of using their bodies and sex and taking advantage of other people as they were used to doing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there were also some group of people there who were taking advantage of the generosity of others, being dependent on the generosity of others, and not working hard for others' benefit.
David: Mm.
Seth: Does that make sense? Does that connection make sense? Some men-
David: Yes
Seth: ... were taking advantage of people sexually. Other people were taking advantage of others financially.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's addressing them both at the same moment.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he says, like, "These are both related to love, brotherly love, affectionate love, and you should not be doing either of these things."
David: God- yeah, makes sense.
Seth: God is not a God who takes advantage of people.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: It's like, "You guys are doing great in the brotherly love thing. Let me add one bit of nuance to it. Real brotherly, Christ-like love does not take advantage of others."
Seth: That's right.
David: "It doesn't harm others."
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah, whether through sex or economy.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, that makes sense. Uh, one thing I've, I've heard before-
Seth: Mm
David: ... I don't- I'm curious if you, if you stumbled on this as you were studying, was that these actually go together, um-
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, and that he might be referencing, um, like, uh, some kind of vassal or household servant or something.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Mm.
Seth: However, um, we had a really hard time finding out that particular, um, [laughs] situation behind the scenes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that could've been the case. That could've been the case. That's a, an easy way... You can read that into this pretty easily.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I think it's probably just easier to say, like, there are some people who were under-working-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, and taking advantage of others' generosity, and there were other people who were taking advantage of people sexually. And Paul says, "None... Neither of those things accord with brotherly love-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and let's find a-... let's, let's, let's center on holiness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Let's be holy as God is holy. Let's be sanctified in this matter. Work with your hands, pay for your own stuff-
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Be generous to other people, and then don't take advantage of people just because of your higher social station, and demand sexual acts from them when that's not the way that God has designed sex or marriage to look.
David: Yeah. And he also talks about doing that, like, in front of outsiders, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think you, you mentioned that.
Seth: Um, yeah, verse 12: "So that you may walk properly before outsiders, and to be dependent on no one."
David: Mm. So it's like he's... And, like, Paul, like you said, was not dependent on the church when he was there.
Seth: That's right.
David: He worked night and day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that he wouldn't be dependent. Um, and, uh, he did that as a testimony to those that he was witnessing to.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it, it seems like he's asking the Thessalonians to mirror that.
Seth: That's right.
David: To be dependent on no one, so that those who are watching see something unique in that way of living-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and are called to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... what you're doing. So it's like, it- I was like, I was trying to find a connection point to the rest of the letter, you know?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like, okay, your suffering is a testimony-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... right, to, to everybody around Macedonia. It's, it's spreading, it's changing your whole civilization.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and now also, the way that you, um, manage your sexuality, and the way that you manage your economy, like, your money and your work, both of those can be testimonies, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Both of those can impact and influence the world around you as well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, it's just interesting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's giving them, he's giving them more weapons for the battle that they're in.
Seth: Yeah. If you go down- just skip down to chapter five, verse 12, he expands on these c- these, um, these commands a little bit more, and he says this: "So we ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves." So apparently, there were a class of people, potentially the leaders of the church-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who had acted like Paul and Silas. They were working hard-
David: Right
Seth: ... and being generous with other people, and le- like, serving others by leading them well, and perhaps even providing for them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when, um, they needed help. So that's why he's saying, "You should honor and esteem them," right? "And we urge you, brothers, to admonish the idle and encourage the faint-hearted, and help the weak and be patient with them all. So- see that no one repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.
David: Mm.
Seth: Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing, giving thanks in all circumstances." So it seems as if these commands are talking to the commands that we have just-
David: Looked at
Seth: ... we just read-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in chapter four. And all of those commands would be a very clear indication to outsiders-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of a different kind of community.
David: A holy community.
Seth: A holy community-
David: One that looks like God
Seth: ... that respects their elders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who works hard. They support each other when they need it. They celebrate and rejoice even when they're suffering-
David: Right
Seth: ... who are doing good to the faint-hearted when they could just cast them- when they could have otherwise just cast them out.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This picture of a community is really compelling to the Thessalonican culture.
David: Yeah, definitely. And I think... It makes me think of two things, like, 'cause I, I always wanna get to, like, the why. [chuckles] You know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... why, why is he talking about this? Uh, and it's like, well, don't do that so y- you don't go to hell. You know, like, that's not-
Seth: Yep
David: ... his driving force here. He's, he's doing it for holiness, you know? And obviously, also, we've been talking about that it would be a witness, that the, the Grecian culture, that they're permeated in, um, mirrors their Grecian gods, who are promiscuous and licentious, and probably, uh, you know, favor males over females, and it can get abusive. And so he's like, "Let's image God," right, "in a community that images Grecian gods-
Seth: Yeah.
David: ... and let's create a different community, a separate community, a holy community that shows the rest of your neighbors what God is like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by how you manage your finances and how you use your body."
Seth: Yeah. Verse seven of chapter four says this: "For God has not called us to impurity, but in holiness."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think that kind of, like, sums up everything that you're trying to say here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They were copying the gods that they knew.
David: Mm.
Seth: They were copying the gods of the Greco-Roman myths that frequently took advantage of people, frequently had sex with people they shouldn't have-
David: Mm
Seth: ... frequently abused people. And they were acting as they saw in their po- the myths of their popular culture. They were acting like the gods. But there's another God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who doesn't act that way. And what, how... Like, how do, how does this relate to the conversation? Well, what is God like? He's a generous God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who gives effusively, and He's also a God who, um, self-sacrifices-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in order that others may prosper.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and His, um, blessing generally tends towards creativity. It's generative.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It creates things. So how are they using sex? In ways that doesn't create life.
David: Destructive ways.
Seth: In destructive ways.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, they're- it's more about pleasure than it is about bringing new image-bearers of God in the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It- they are not being generous, they're being stingy and s- s- uh, selfish.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So they should image the God of the Bible-
David: Right
Seth: ... instead of imaging the gods of the pagan Roman culture.
David: Yeah, which he said a couple times was his goal in chapters one and two, is like, "Be imitators."
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "It's all about being imitators of Christ."
Seth: And in chapter one, he says, "The whole world knows how you've been turning away from idols-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to serve the living and true God."
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're in the process of turning away from all the idols of Thessalonica to the image of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: And here are two w- two more ways to continue that path forward.
David: Yeah. I just think it's such a helpful, like, thing to camp on for a second, like we have been, to talk about the why behind Christian morality.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because I think so much of it can just be either, "Well, because God said so"
Seth: Right.
David: "Or because you don't wanna be a sinner, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, suffer a sinner's reward." Uh, or, you know, like, there-
Seth: That's right
David: ... there's all the...
Seth: That's right.
David: It's, like, the reason we do it is, I mean, one, because it's the healthy, wise way to live in the world [chuckles] right? Like, God made the world-
Seth: In a world that... Yeah
David: ... a certain way, and we live with the universe's grain when we follow the Creator. But what he's harping on here is, um-... a Christian morality is one of the best witnesses to the world of what God is like. It's a picture of who God is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So picture God, show him to the world, image him, bear his image to the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the world will see God and be changed.
Seth: One of the side effects of following God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that the world is compelled to follow God, too.
David: Right.
Seth: One of the side effects of imaging God in our sex, in our money, and in our grief, is that the world is compelled to follow the, the God that we serve as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. It just, yeah, it just couches it completely differently. [upbeat music] The other thing that I was thinking about with these moral commands was, he talked about, uh, in, in chapter four, verse, uh, two, I think, or one, uh... Yeah, one. He says, uh, that you may w- uh, "You ought to walk and to please God."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That- when you were reading that earlier, it just stuck out to me because I, I- sometimes I think about displeasing God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is not being said here [chuckles] necessarily.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's like, that I can actually be a pleasure to God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That God could enj- that God enjoys my life.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: Like, that the way I-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... image him actually makes him smile.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, the f- like, like, I mean, one of my favorite things, like, for a friend, you know, that I'm hosting at my house, or for my wife or my children, is when I do something that just makes them laugh or smile or have a moment with, like, a bite of food or something-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's just like, "Oh, man, that was pleasing."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And like, that's one of my favorite things to do, is to please someone.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's just so life-giving, it's so joy-making.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the fact that I could do that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the creator of the world, that I could l- live in a way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that actually fills God with pleasure, it's fascinating.
Seth: The, uh, the way the Old Testament talks about that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that when sacrifices are offered in the temple, the smoke of the sacrifices-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... goes up, and it's described as a pleasing aroma to God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, barbecue always smells great.
David: This is true.
Seth: [chuckles] Uh, so, like, God is accepting an animal sacrifice, and he is accepts it as a pleasing aroma, something that's enjoyable to him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so what's... I think that's probably, that pleasing God language, is a callback-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a hyperlink to this old sacrificial language.
David: That's cool.
Seth: And so what's interesting is, these people are not offering sacrifices, but they're making sacrifices out of their lives.
David: That's right.
Seth: They're the barbecue. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, yeah, right, they're... They-
David: They are the living sacrifice-
Seth: They're the-
David: ... holy and pleasing to God.
Seth: Right, that, like, God inhales-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he's like, "This is a good thing.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is the way I, I hope-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for my people to be."
David: Which is ultimately what Jesus was. He was the sacrifice that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... was pleasing to God. Not only because... It, and it's not just that God, oh, God really enjoys sacrifice. That's not what we're saying here. It's that in Jesus's death on the cross, and in Christians pursuing a holy life, God looks at that and he says, "That's what I look like!"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Like, "That's a mirror to me, the most beautiful, holy, gorgeous thing in all of the universe."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And whenever we mirror God, he's like, "Ah, yes! You're starting to look like me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "That's what I look like." And he takes pleasure in it, because we are filling up and, and displaying and embodying the best thing in the world-
Seth: Right
David: ... which is himself.
Seth: And I think the thing that Paul points out explicitly here, is in, um, verse five. He says, "Don't take advantage of other people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, when it comes to sex, and then don't take advantage of people when it comes to finances." Because why? Verse six: Um, "Because the Lord is an avenger in all these things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as we b- told you before, and solemnly warned you." The- part of the good news here is not simply that we please God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by our, um, uh, our willingness to, like, accept his moral commands in our life.
David: Right.
Seth: But it's also that when Jesus comes, he comes to do justice against those who take advantage of others-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and who do so maliciously and abusively. Jesus comes solemnly to deal severe justice to those who misuse their body and their lives-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to the detriment and harm of others.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and that's gonna be a pretty significant theme that's picked up in the next verses.
David: Yeah. Before we jump there, one last thing, just 'cause I think you've nailed something really important about... There's this avenging that God is going to bring-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, um, against those who are breaking his moral commands, uh, so that they are harming others.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and I think for the Christians in Thessalon- Thessalonica, and for us today, it can- we can feel like it's our job to respond to that moral brokenness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But in, in a lot of times when we do that, we end up breaking God's moral commands in the process.
Seth: We wanna be the harbingers of justice.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's why he's like, "Hey, don't repay anyone for evil." Like, "Don't re-
Seth: That's right
David: ... Don't repay evil for evil. Always just seek to do good to everyone, even those who are doing the wrong thing or wrong things against you."
Seth: Mm.
David: "You know what? Instead of complaining and yelling at them and throwing it in their face, rejoice, pray, give thanks." And it's like... So some- I wonder, I just, I-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I don't know, I'm probably overreaching here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's like, I do wonder if, uh, you know, the, the suffering Christians receiving the generosity of others are like, "You know what? I am just gonna idle out right now, because life's hard."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, "I'm be- I'm being persecuted, and I'm just gonna not have-"
Seth: Mm
David: ... "to also work. Like, that just is a lot."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, uh, "And I'm gonna do that because it's like I'm sticking it to somebody. I'm not gonna go to my-
Seth: Right
David: ... my pagan boss's job and work for him anymore, 'cause I don't have to. 'Cause I..." And you're, like, trying to stick it to him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, I... Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm just, I'm curious.
Seth: You're-
David: Yeah. I'm, I'm reaching.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's a very human thing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be like, "Oh, when I'm wronged-... I wanna lash out in some way-
David: Totally
Seth: ... by underperforming or-
David: Right
Seth: ... anxiously trying to get even in some way.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's like, and he's like, "No, God will judge those things."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "He'll, he'll take care of those things."
David: So you go, you, you continue to work, you continue-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you give, you continue to pray, be thankful, repay evil with good. Uh, and in that, you're continuing to image God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that is-
Seth: That's right
David: ... holiness. We were evil toward God, and God repaid that evil with the ultimate good.
Seth: That's right.
David: By coming to us in His Son and sacrificing for us. So, um, yeah, anyway, that's pretty cool. [upbeat music] Okay, so those like, those are like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... two of the moral commands.
Seth: Yep.
David: Or did we, did we do three?
Seth: We've only done two-
David: We've done two
Seth: ... because the, the, the third one is about death and grief.
David: That's right. Okay.
Seth: Death and grief.
David: Okay, death and grief.
Seth: And this is one of the first places that we enter into a conversation Paul did not have an opportunity to address-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... uh, the Thessalonians beforehand. So he starts off chapter four, verse 13, "But we do not want you to be uninformed about those who fall asleep." So-
David: And that's people who die.
Seth: That's people who die.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. So presumably, Timothy came back to Paul after his visit to Thessalonica, and he said, "Hey, they had a question for you, um, about s- about s- the pe- people who die."
David: About, uh, what happens when a Christian dies?
Seth: That's right. And so he said, "Okay, let me talk to you about something that we didn't get a chance to cover-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in our, uh, three weeks of Bible school." [laughing] Um-
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... and this is what he says: "Because" he said, "we don't want you to be uninformed about those who are asleep, so that you may not grieve at, as others do, who have no hope."
David: Hmm.
Seth: So the point of this is to give a... What does it mean to be a Christian who believes in a resurrected Jesus, to grieve well?
David: Yeah.
Seth: How do Christians who believe in resurrection grieve those who have died?
David: Right, 'cause it's a different thing for us. We believe in life after death.
Seth: That's right.
David: But also, if your, like, Christian friend's, like, mother dies, you're not gonna be like, "Hey, don't worry about it."
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, that's not a good way to grieve, either. [chuckles]
Seth: That's right.
David: So what's a Christian response-
Seth: That's, that's exactly right
David: ... to Christian death?
Seth: And presumably, what's happening behind the scenes here is that Timothy isn't just reporting a, a general question about death-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... but a specific question about death.
David: Okay, and what's that?
Seth: They've been suffering-
David: Right
Seth: ... under this persecution, and some of the members of their fledgling church have died under the hand, at the hands of either-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... the Jewish or the Thessalonian authorities because of their faith.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so, like, what happens to these brothers and sisters who have just had, for their faith in Jesus Christ?
David: Right.
Seth: What is going to happen to them, especially in light of the fact that you told us that Jesus is coming soon? Which is a whole nother thing that we-
David: Okay
Seth: ... haven't got into.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like-
David: 'Cause the last time I heard about somebody dying for faith in God in this way, it was Jesus, and three days later, he rose from the dead. Is that what we should expect? [chuckles]
Seth: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I wonder what all they're thinking. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, so here we go. "So we don't want you to grieve as others do, because since we believe that Jesus died and rose again-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... even so, though Jesus God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep." So the point here is simply, like, we know that Jesus died and rose again, which means that anyone who has died will rise again, too. That's, that's the very general point here.
David: Through Jesus.
Seth: Through Jesus.
David: Because he defeated death and has... And, and I don't know how to word that, but like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... knows how to bring life out of death.
Seth: That's right. "And we declare this to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. And then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words." So a lot's going on there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? Um, let's start with the most basic things.
David: Okay.
Seth: Whatever this means, it's meant to encourage these believers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to help them to grieve w- in, in light of resurrection.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, that's what this is meant to do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he said, he says, "You're worried that because some of your friends who believed in Jesus died before the coming of the Lord, you're afraid they've somehow missed out-
David: Right
Seth: ... on Jesus coming." He's like, "You don't need to worry about that."
David: He, he's gonna raise them.
Seth: Jesus died and rose, so he will raise those dead friends of yours from the dead.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And together, one day, we will join God in the air-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... um, and be with him forever. We'll be with God forever."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You don't need to worry that your friends who have died before you will miss out on the coming of Jesus in majesty and power and glory."
David: Yeah. That's such, like, a nor- it, it's such, like, an obvious thing, I think-
Seth: Right
David: ... to a lot of Christians today, because we've been separated from the coming of Jesus for so many generations now-
Seth: That's right
David: ... where, you know, millions of Christians have died.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we're not like, "Well, I guess they all missed it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause only, you know, only the ones alive when Jesus comes are gonna be able to hang out with him, 'cause they're alive. Everybody else is dead.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's just, it's, it's a f- it's funny in a way-
Seth: Yeah, it's like-
David: ... but it makes total sense.
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause like-
Seth: Of course you'd be-
David: ... if you were living in that time when res- resurrection life wasn't, like, a normal category in your worldview, you'd be like, "Oh, crap, they're dead."
Seth: They're dead forever.
David: They're dead forever, and Jesus comes, and they missed out.
Seth: Greek philosophy did not hold out for personal resurrection. There would've been no real analog-
David: Right
Seth: ... for the Christian hope that-
David: No
Seth: ... dead people are united with living people and experience the same victory of Jesus at the same... Like-
David: Yeah, well, especially-
Seth: Together
David: ... especially a bodily resurrection.
Seth: That's right.
David: You know, the duality that was in, you know, Grecian Platonism was, like, body, bad, soul, spirit, good. And so if anything was gonna continue on, it would be a spirit thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but not a resurrection on Earth, where Jesus would come back.
Seth: Right.
David: That would make no sense. Why would you want that old, bad body?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-... you know, Christianity redeems that-
Seth: Yeah
David: -in the glorified body of Jesus' resurrection and puts the duality into a unified form. So yeah, that's fascinating. Okay, so they're worried that they're waiting on the return of the Lord, on the coming of the Lord, um, but some of their own have died.
Seth: Mm.
David: And they're like, "Oh, no, when Jesus comes back, they're gonna miss out." He's like: No, don't worry about it. When Jesus comes back or when- at the coming of the Lord...
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm trying to use his words.
Seth: Yeah.
David: At the coming of the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then we who are left will join them in the air.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: That's, that's exactly right.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: That's exactly what he said.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, my assumption is that there's probably a lot of questions that leaves open.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, it's like, what does it mean to meet the Lord in the air? What does it mean for the dead in Christ to rise first?
David: Mm-hmm. What is he referring to when he says, "The coming of the Lord?"
Seth: Yeah. I think we- I, we- I wanna answer all those questions.
David: Yep.
Seth: But I think, like, the im- what we need to remember is that we are only listening on half the conversation here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Paul, one, assumed his audience knew what he meant in such a way that it would encourage them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think the really ba- we... So we don't- it's like there's so much speculation that goes on. What does it mean to- the day of the Lord? What's the coming of the Lord? What does it mean to meet him in the air? It's like, the point Paul is communicating is actually very, very clear.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, "Hey, you're worried that your dead friends won't join you when Jesus comes. Don't worry about that."
David: Right.
Seth: The, the dead are first on Jesus's mind.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why? Because he died and rose again.
David: Right. He's-
Seth: They're closer to eternity than you are. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, of course, he's gonna save them.
David: That's right. They died for suffering. That's Jesus's, like, home base, man.
Seth: Right. He's going to come for them.
David: Priority in his head.
Seth: And we will all together experience Jesus's victory.
David: That's right.
Seth: His coming.
David: Neither the living or the dead are disqualified by either state from joining Jesus-
Seth: That's right
David: ... on his day.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that is the, what he wants to give them.
David: Yeah. Don't worry about it.
Seth: Don't worry about it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Jesus, who rose, death is no problem for him.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. Cool. Uh, 'cause we'll probably do... 'Cause Second Thessalonians is gonna bring up some of these same categories-
Seth: Well-
David: ... and we're probably gonna talk about a lot of this in maybe a separate episode?
Seth: Yeah. Well, First Thessalonians brings it up again-
David: Oh, great
Seth: ... in just a second.
David: Oh, wonderful.
Seth: So [upbeat music] when the coming of the Lord, that they're afraid their dead friends missed out on.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Well, now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers..." Of what? Of this coming of the Lord that we've just talked about.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "You have no need to have anything written to you, for you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."
David: Hmm.
Seth: So it's interesting here, he's like-
David: Quoting Jesus.
Seth: He's quoting Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from Matthew 23, 24, and 25, and he is also putting this in conversation with the conversation he's just had about the coming of the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So apparently, Paul did have some time to talk about the coming of the Lord with them-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but not full enough time to explain what happens to the dead-
David: Right
Seth: ... when they die before the coming of the Lord.
David: Otherwise, they wouldn't have known to expect it at all-
Seth: That's right
David: ... or that it would come like a thief in the night.
Seth: Right.
David: They've had a conversation about the coming of the Lord.
Seth: They just didn't know some of the mechanics-
David: So what about the dead?
Seth: ... about this. That's right.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: So, um, he says: Okay, I've already ta- we've already talked about when this coming will happen, right?
David: And the answer is-
Seth: We-
David: ... we don't know, like a thief in the night.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right. We don't know. It's gonna come like a thief in the night. What we do know is that people are gonna be saying, "Peace and security."
David: Mm.
Seth: People are gonna assume everything's fine, but then that's when sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and they will not escape. So he's also quoting Jesus again here-
David: Yes
Seth: ... from Matthew 24. Um, but what's interesting here is, like, who's being destroyed in this case? Is probably the most pertinent question, and why would that be a conversation that they're interested in.
David: Mm.
Seth: My guess is... Well, I'll save my questions.
David: Okay.
Seth: I'll save my guesses for later. He's just saying: Okay, we know that God's coming, and He's going to destroy malicious actors [chuckles]
David: Okay
Seth: ... right? At the very least. Like, people that are potentially harming you, or maybe even more on the nose, people that have killed your friends.
David: Mm.
Seth: We know that Jesus has come, and very suddenly He's going to take care of them. He's gonna do justice to them, just as we've talked about before. Um, He's gonna bring justice against them. Uh, [clears throat] "But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief-
David: Mm.
Seth: ... for you are children of the light. So then, let us not sleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober, for those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet, uh, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we might live with Him together. So encourage one another with these things." So-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... he's ending this very same way he ended the first, the fir- that first section we just talked about. He says: We will be with the Lord forever-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... therefore, encourage another- with these words about his conversation about the dead who die before Jesus comes, and he's ending this little section about the day of the Lord the same way. We'll live with Him forever, now encourage one another with these things.
David: Right.
Seth: Whatever he means here is for his people's sake.
David: It's for encouragement.
Seth: It's for encouragement.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think what's happening here is on a very, on, on the most meta of levels-
David: Okay
Seth: ... is he's simply saying, "When Jesus comes, the dead and the living will be with Jesus forever together."
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Whether we're awake or asleep-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... everybody gets to be with Jesus if you're in Christ.
Seth: Right. And now, we don't know precisely when that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... day is gonna come.
David: Nope.
Seth: It's gonna come like a thief in the night.
David: But it... Yeah, but it, it should only sur- it should only come like a thief in the night to those who don't know it's coming.
Seth: Right.
David: It'll surprise them, but you guys will be like, "Hey, Jesus, we're waiting for you."
Seth: Yeah, we... You're aware that it's gonna come suddenly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So when He comes, it's not really gonna be a surprise-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it will be a surprise.
David: "Yeah. Oh, I didn't know it was gonna be today-
Seth: But-
David: ... I was expecting it."
Seth: I was expecting it. So how should we live then?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not in anxiety-
David: Right
Seth: ... over the fate of our fallen friends.
David: Yes.
Seth: ... but soberly, in expectation of inevitable salvation-
David: Right
Seth: ... that Jesus Christ has secured by dying and rising from the dead.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: How do you live in the in-between, between now-
David: Right
Seth: ... between the suffering you're experiencing now-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the ultimate victory and coming of the Lord?
David: Mm.
Seth: Not anxiously.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus Christ has conquered death.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's gonna come. Put on your, uh, as a helmet, the hope of salvation-
David: Right
Seth: ... the hope of inevitable-
David: Hope
Seth: ... salvation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and put on as a breastplate, faith and love.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's like, what is he telling them to do? It's the same thing he's telling them, telling them throughout the rest of the letter.
David: Right.
Seth: While you're suffering-
David: Yep
Seth: ... act in faith and love towards those who are persecuting-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with the hope that Jesus Christ will come, and you will live with him together, along with your dead friends.
David: Mm.
Seth: And you'll live with him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's all you need to know. That's what he wants them to know. That's what, th- that's what he wants them to feel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Which, what a great message, not only for people who have lost loved ones, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And are- were curious how to process death in light of the resurrection of Jesus, but also, what an encouragement to people who are currently suffering.
Seth: That's right!
David: Right? Like, it's great news for the bereaved and the persecuted, to guard your minds with the helmet of hope that Jesus is coming. So whether you are living or dead when that happens, um, he will avenge the wrongdoer, and he will be with you, who have been waiting for him.
Seth: That's right.
David: I mean, uh, what a... That's encouragement.
Seth: That's super encouraging, right? [laughing]
David: Yeah, encouragement.
Seth: That's like, that's super encouraging.
David: Yeah. Wow. So i- what else in 1 Thessalonians do we need to talk about before we leave it?
Seth: Um, I think the only thing that we need to talk about is what we didn't talk about.
David: Oh, I mean, that makes sense. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] Um, uh, and I think intentionally didn't talk about.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think when people come to these, these chapters in Thessalonians, what we really wanna know is like, "So when is Jesus gonna come back?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "When is the day of the Lord? Uh, what does it mean for Jesus to come down from heaven and us to ascend to him?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We didn't talk about what any of those things mean, in specifics.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's kind of intentional: one, because I think there's a- so much speculation that ends up having to happen, th- your interpretation of those passages depends on your interpretation of several other passages-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Scripture, and it seems like we don't have time to do all that right now.
David: [laughing] Sure.
Seth: Maybe we will in a later podcast episode-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but for now, it's like, then we don't have time. But the other thing is like, Paul's main concern isn't to satisfy our curiosity about some of the specifics of the end of time-
David: Right
Seth: ... but to encourage grieving people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so if-
David: And to give hope to the persecuted.
Seth: And to give hope to the persecuted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if we- what we take away... If, if we did this podcast and ended up talking for an hour and a half about those details, we would've done Paul a disservice to get-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because he wants to give good news to the grieving and to the persecuted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the good news for the grieving and the persecuted is that Jesus Christ will vindicate you.
David: Mm.
Seth: He will avenge you against those who have done you wrong, and you will most certainly live with him forever.
David: Right.
Seth: There is... Like, and that's it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's the ultimate hope of these passages. However it happens, whenever it happens-
David: Right
Seth: ... this is what he wants to give to his people.
David: Yeah, and the call, the application that Paul makes is not, "So get it all figured out, what it's gonna look like, when it's gonna happen, how it's gonna happen, the sequence of events in which it's gonna happen." That's not his application.
Seth: No.
David: His application is, "Stay awake, and be sober-minded."
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Wi- which means what? Put on the helmet of hope and know it's coming.
Seth: Right.
David: Put on the breastplate of faith and love, and, and know in your heart that Jesus is who he said he is, that he rose from the dead, he's coming back, and then live in love with the world as an image of that, uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... faith, uh, u- until the day you die.
Seth: That's right.
David: Stay awake.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, that's his application-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is like, live the theology. Don't just, like, figure out all the-
Seth: Right
David: ... days and times and everything.
Seth: And just to name it, what we've just read is incredibly confusing.
David: Mm.
Seth: So much so that Paul's second letter has to clear up confusion the Thessalonians had about the first letter. [laughing]
David: Oh, hilarious.
Seth: Isn't that amazing? [laughing]
David: Very good.
Seth: So if we have questions, Paul's going to attempt to answer them-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in the next letter anyway.
David: Well, great.
Seth: So we'll get- we'll have our chance to an- have our fun with those questions, too.
David: Well, wonderful. Well, is that 1 Thessalonians?
Seth: That's 1 Thessalonians.
David: Awesome. That has been really encouraging, and I guess that's its point.
Seth: That's right.
David: All right. If it hasn't been, we missed the mark. [laughing]
Seth: We missed the mark, yeah.
David: Yeah. Well, be encouraged that no matter what you're going through, uh, living, uh, or if you die, or those who have died, Jesus is coming, and that should provide us comfort no matter what-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we're going through.
Seth: That's right.
David: That is very encouraging. All right. Well, thank you all for joining us in 1 Thessalonians, and hopefully, you will join us as we move forward into Paul's second letter to this church, 2 Thessalonians. We'll see you there. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
