David: there's something that is good for our souls that's imaging-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God to work hard for the good of others, and the idle are missing out on that goodness. They're missing out on that ability-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to image God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because they're not working hard for the benefit of others.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: And so it's like, man, do that!
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's good. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the letters to the Thessalonians.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We spent two episodes walking through the first letter to the Thessalonians, and now we're jumping into the second letter, famously known as 2 Thessalonians-
Seth: Yep
David: ... or 2 Thessalonians.
Seth: 2 Thessalonians.
David: Uh, Seth, how you feeling about our s- our second letter to the Thessalonians?
Seth: Uh, this one, this one feels a little heavier.
David: Okay.
Seth: It starts off with a briefer prayer.
David: Mm.
Seth: Previously, Paul prayed for three chapters, just-
David: Yeah, he was gushing
Seth: ... gushing about how great the Thessalonians were. Here we get three verses.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then we jump straight into conversation about eternal judgment.
David: Oh!
Seth: So just a little-
David: Little heavier.
Seth: Little heavier.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and then we talk about some very controversial passages about the man of lawlessness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and a great apostas- apostasy that happens.
David: Yeah, nailed it.
Seth: Um-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and perhaps the second coming of Christ, so-
David: All right.
Seth: We just, [chuckles] we go, we get to go right into the deep end.
David: Right into it.
Seth: And I'm very excited-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and very, like, I feel heavy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at that prospect. Um-
David: Approaching the text with fear this morn- th- this, this day.
Seth: This day.
David: I don't know what time it is.
Seth: Um-
David: We're in a room with no windows.
Seth: Okay, so let me just explain how we get to 2 Thessalonians-
David: Mm
Seth: ... recapping a little bit of history from 1 Thessalonians, too.
David: Thank you for not making me do that.
Seth: You're welcome. [chuckles] So, uh, Paul, Silas, and perhaps Timothy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... come to Thessalonica and spend about three weeks preaching Jesus from the Old Testament, and a whole bunch of people come to believe that Jesus is the true king of the world and the Messiah that the Bible prophesies.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This incites a whole bunch of jealousy by the local Jewish religious establishment, who incite a mob, um, um, in Thessalonica and run Paul and Silas out of town.
David: Right.
Seth: This church is, like, a small, fledgling church with only three weeks of Bible school under their belt, and not a ton of biblical knowledge or a ton of knowledge about Jesus necessarily.
David: Right, and they're being persecuted.
Seth: They're being persecuted, whatever else.
David: Yeah, that kind of persecution ran Paul out of town.
Seth: Right.
David: But they had a stay in it.
Seth: Paul is desperate to get back to them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is unable to, but sends Timothy, who finds out how they're doing. Timothy returns to Paul, and he sends the letter 1 Thessalonians to encourage them in the path that they're going on and to fill in some gaps in their knowledge.
David: Right, 'cause we learned from Timothy's report that the Thessalonians, like, almost surprisingly, are flourishing.
Seth: Are flourishing. Flourishing.
David: They're like... They, they didn't get crushed under the persecution, so, like, yeah, like, we, we talked about last time, like, Paul praises them for that, praises God for that. And, uh, and then, yeah, fills in some gaps in their knowledge, like, uh, what does it look like to actually be like Jesus, to-
Seth: Mm
David: ... image him-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in his holiness in a pagan culture?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we talked about sex, money, and death.
Seth: That's right. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: The big three.
David: The big three.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: And, um, uh, one of the main things he talked about to encourage them, especially in the death question, was that a da- that the day of Jesus's coming was-
Seth: S-
David: ... was still in the future, and that you can hope in that, and that whether you are living or dead-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, when-
Seth: Jesus
David: ... Jesus comes, the, the, the, he will vindicate those who have persecuted you, and he will be with you while, while you wait for him.
Seth: He'll vindicate you if you have been persecuted.
David: Yes. Yes, yes.
Seth: And he'll, he'll avenge you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he'll vindicate you, and he will make sure that all of God's people are together, living with Jesus forever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So they get that letter-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and either Timothy stays or Timothy is forced to leave for a period of time, and as they sit with that letter, they become increasingly confused-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about the contents of that letter and what precisely it means. And adding to that confusion-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the fact that perhaps the Jewish religious establishment in Thessalonica, um, or others within the community, begin to pretend that they have had other communications from Paul and Silas and Timothy, telling them that the day of the Lord, the coming of the Lord, has already happened.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Um, and-
David: Like a, like a fake letter or something?
Seth: Like a fake... Perhaps a fake letter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, Paul says this, he says this, he says, "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word or a letter seeming to be from us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the effect the day of the Lord has come." So he doesn't specifically name it. Perhaps it's a mixture of all three.
David: Right.
Seth: So but presumably, someone speaking on God or Paul's behalf has claimed to have heard from God or Paul-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that the day of the Lord has already come, and these Thessalonian believers have missed out on it-
David: Oh, my gosh
Seth: ... in some way.
David: I mean, if, I mean- [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... Paul, 1 Thessalonians, his, like, anchor point was, "Don't worry-
Seth: That's right
David: ... be encouraged. The day of the Lord is coming." And that was, like, the anchor of the whole thing.
Seth: That's right.
David: And that was the hope. That was the encouragement. And so what a great trick of the enemy, whoever that enemy is, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Either whether the local authorities, Jews, or Satan himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to say, "You know what? Let's just make them doubt that... Not that- let's not discredit the day of the Lord. Let's just say it came, and they missed it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And we'll just pull the rug out from under them. We'll untether the anchor from the bottom of the s- of the sea-
Seth: Right
David: ... and they'll just, they'll die."
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Oh, man, that's dastardly.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Paul, hearing about this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... writes the letter of 2 Thessalonians.
David: I can see why he jumps in really quickly, like you said, at the beginning.
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: Where he's like... He's like, "All right."
Seth: "Let's talk about this."
David: "Let's talk about this." [chuckles]
Seth: And so he's addressing these concerns, uh, to the Thessalonians and wants to clear up any misunderstanding they might have had from his first letter and address these false reports that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... have come into the church, uh, but from one means or another.
David: Yeah.... [upbeat music] Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So how does he address such a dire situation?
Seth: Yeah, so let's just start reading-
David: Okay [chuckles]
Seth: ... in, uh, verse three. "So we thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing." So kind of starting out the same way as First Thessalonians, gushing over about how-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... exemplary the Thessalonians are. "Therefore, among God's churches, we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you're enduring."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, "When we're traveling to Berea and Athens and Corinth, we brag about you as examples of what it means-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be a faithful follower of Jesus under persecution."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Take heart in that. And this is evidence," so your perseverance under, under persecution is evidence, "that God s- God's judgment is right, and as a result, you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are suffering." So his first point here is like, you're enduring under persecution, just as Jesus endured under persecution-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which means you will join the kingdom Jesus is establishing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're being persecuted for claiming that Jesus is king? Good, because that persecution means you're a part of his kingdom.
David: Persecution doesn't point to exclusion from the kingdom or neglect from the king.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's actually how you get your citizen card.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that potentially could be part of the, uh, false teaching that's spreading. It's like, you know how-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, Jesus has already come, and you missed out on it, so your suffering is evidence that Jesus has already come.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause if he was here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you wouldn't be suffering.
David: He left you behind-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and your trials are proof.
Seth: That's right.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, um, God is just. He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and give relief to you who are troubled, and to yous, uh, and to us as well. So he's like, "Okay, what's proof that you're in the Kingdom of God? That you're suffering. And what do we know that God will do on your behalf? He's a good judge, and he will judge those who are persecuting, harming, and killing you."
David: Mm.
Seth: Just reminding of the, of the, the fact that when Jesus comes, he d- is coming to do justice. He'll vindicate them, and he'll judge their enemies.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay?
David: Okay.
Seth: "And this will happen, this judgment will happen, this vindication- your vindication will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ." It's like, when is this gonna happen? When will you be vindicated?
David: Mm.
Seth: When will you enter into the kingdom? How will you know all this happened? When Jesus comes, with angels and flaming fire.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: That's when it's gonna happen.
David: So he's like, he's like... That clearly hasn't happened yet.
Seth: That- [chuckles]
David: You would've known.
Seth: Right. There is that aspect of, like, I think you, you wouldn't have missed that. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: I don't think you would've missed that. Um-
David: Right, and those who are punishing you and persecuting you have not had vengeance-
Seth: That's right
David: ... uh, enacted against them yet.
Seth: If you're being persecuted, that means Christ-
David: The kingdom hasn't come in full yet.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah, okay. You haven't missed anything.
Seth: That- you haven't missed anything. Uh, "They will be punished, those who persecute you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you." So he just begins, he's saying, like, "God's a good judge, guys.
David: Mm.
Seth: You've suffered well. You are an example, a model of godliness. You are precisely the type of people that God is coming to save."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And when God comes, he will save you, and he will judge as worthy of destruction those who've spent the last several months harming you and killing you."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what's gonna happen.
David: It's weird to think about missing the second coming of Jesus. Like, I don't have a category for that.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: Um, I have a hard time with this p- so when it comes to interpreting these passages-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it actually feels very odd for me to assume that the Thessalonians could have been tricked by a false teaching-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that the day of the Lord, the final climactic day of the Lord, where all evil is judged, has actually happened.
David: Right, so-
Seth: Because all they would have to do is look around and see that their evil oppressing them.
David: Right, and that's what Paul's telling them, is, "Has that happened yet? No, therefore, it hasn't come."
Seth: Right.
David: So they must have thought something different was going to happen on this day of the Lord?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So what I'm wondering-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and this will go into some speculation that we can talk about a little bit later on, is like, when Jesus talked about the coming of the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, he frequently talked about it it coming soon.
David: Yeah, "This generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place."
Seth: That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: Matthew 24, which Paul is pulling on frequently throughout here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and let's just- I'm just gonna show some cards. So in Matthew 23 and 24, the disciples and Jesus are talking about the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the religious establishment in Israel, and how they have consistently, um, been against Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... persecuted Jesus, and tried to kill Jesus-
David: Right
Seth: ... just as the Jewish establishment in Thessalonica and in Philippi have been try- persecuting Paul and these people.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Jesus prophesies, and he says, "I tell you, not one stone of this temple will be left on top of another one. The religious establishment that's persecuting us will fall."
David: Right.
Seth: The disciples ask, "Well, when will this happen?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "When will the destruction of this religious establishment centered in the temple will happen?"
David: Right.
Seth: And then Jesus, at the end of a long list of descriptions, many of which Paul uses right here, says, "This generation will not pass away."
David: Right.
Seth: So it's possible that what's happening here is that the Thessalonicans, the Thessalonians, um, thought that that near day of God's judgment against the religious establishment of Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... had already happened.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the false teachers come and said, "That day has already happened, and it wasn't as big of a deal as you thought."
David: Oh.
Seth: "And we're still in power, and you're still suffering."
David: Yeah. Or, oh, that's interesting! So the way they could have talked about that then is, "Yes, guess what? Your Jesus came back, and our temple still stands."
Seth: Yes.
David: "We won the battle."
Seth: That's right.
David: ... we killed him again.
Seth: Yes. Yes.
David: Oh!
Seth: Yes.
David: That would, that makes a ton of sense.
Seth: That makes a lot of sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to me.
David: Yeah. Oh, yeah, Jesus died, and sure, maybe he rose, maybe he faked it, whatever, but he came back, and we beat him again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, and so the temple still stands, and we st- uh, the religious order that we've, we've been putting in authority over you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is still in play, so we win. We're gonna keep-
Seth: Right
David: ... persecuting you.
Seth: And so when Paul's responding-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to that, he's saying, "Guys, I told you what's gonna happen on that day, that the religious establishment of Israel will be totally razed to the ground."
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Um, and that-
David: Eternally cut off.
Seth: Eternally cut off.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, the Jews that persecuted Jesus, that persecuted us, and that persecuted you, will not be, um, alive to continue to do so anymore.
David: Mm.
Seth: Or they will be robbed of their power so that they will not be able to do so anymore.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: So that hasn't happened yet. You do not need to... Like, if Jesus comes-
David: You're gonna know it.
Seth: You're going to know it, whether that's this climactic end of the, end of the world-
David: Yeah, universal event
Seth: ... or more specifically, like Jesus prophesied, the destruction of the temple.
David: Right, you will- y- uh, the whole region will know when that happens. [chuckles]
Seth: That's right.
David: Right, right, right, right.
Seth: Um, so I have a suspicion that Paul is probably talking about that nearer-
David: Mm
Seth: ... day of the Lord here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because I, I think that makes a little bit more sense of why the Thessalonians would be confused.
David: I don't know how else to trick a people into thinking that a universal, cataclysmic event has happened.
Seth: Yeah, I mean-
David: It's like, "Oh, you... Oh, you guys were all asleep when it happened"
Seth: ... Right.
David: Or like [chuckles]
Seth: The... I mean, people believe that today, that Jesus has come back and established his rule and reign on the Earth right now, and that this is as good as it gets. That is a c- that is a false teaching. That is a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... heresy.
David: And, like, he came in, like, a spiritual sense.
Seth: In a spiritual sense.
David: Oh, yeah. Yes, right.
Seth: So, like, that could be what's happening here.
David: That... Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's fair.
Seth: So, uh, but anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's what... So he's enc- but he's encouraged them. At the end of the day, whether... whatever he's referring to, he's just saying, "Hey, guys-
David: "You didn't miss out."
Seth: "You didn't miss out, because it's gonna be really, really, really clear-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when it happens."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he says, "I'm gonna p- I'm gonna pray for you along those lines" for a couple of verses, and then he jumps in to give more specifics about the clear things that must happen-
David: Mm
Seth: ... before the day of the Lord arrives-
David: Yes, okay
Seth: ... in chapter two.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay, so he starts out with this: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become un- uh, easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... whether by prophecy or word of mouth."
David: Right. Right, right.
Seth: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
David: Mm.
Seth: "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember when I was with you? I used to tell you these things."
David: Mm.
Seth: So apparently, this is all stuff that Paul's covered before.
David: Well, I mean, it would make sense if he shared with them, you know, Matthew 23 and 24.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause he- they knew the whole thief in the night thing-
Seth: That's right
David: ... which is what that's from. He's like, "I shared these words from Jesus to you guys"-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... and he, he covers what has to take place, uh, uh, before-
Seth: That's right
David: ... the destruction of the temple.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so we, we, we walked through this. Don't you remember?
Seth: Don't you remember all this happened?
David: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: "And now, and now you know what is holding him, the man of lawlessness, back-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he's taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve his lies, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion, so that they will believe the lie, and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." And I just want you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to hear that Paul says all this as way of reminder. He says-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "We've already talked about this, and you already know what all this means."
David: Mm.
Seth: So I just, just wanna, like, be really clear here. It's like, this is a really easy place to speculate. When is this happening? Who is the man of lawlessness? What is this restraining force? What is the appropriate time?
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's so many questions.
David: So many questions.
Seth: Right, but Paul assumes his audience knows precisely what he's talking about.
David: Right. I don't have to write to you anymore about all this stuff.
Seth: I've told you all this before.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, so I think there's a good deal of humility we can bring to this text.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, what's the point of this? The point is for Paul to say, "Hey, the day of the Lord can't have happened, because there's several very clear things that need to happen first, and those haven't happened. You haven't missed out."
David: Right. That's his whole point, is you haven't missed out. [chuckles]
Seth: You haven't missed out.
David: Right.
Seth: So and then he goes on: "So stand firm. Stand firm in your faith-
David: Mm.
Seth: ... God will vindicate you. He will avenge you for... Uh, he will avenge those who are persecuting and killing you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he will declare you as innocent before them, and you will join your dead brothers and sisters very soon."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "It be- " And, "How do I know this? How do I know you haven't missed out on that day? Because all the things that Jesus told us to expect, none of them have happened yet."
David: Mm-hmm. The judgment hasn't happened-
Seth: Right
David: ... cataclysmically and, like, in a way that everybody would notice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This man of lawlessness who claims to be God, setting himself up-
Seth: That's right
David: ... for worship, all these things haven't happened yet. So be encouraged.
Seth: Be encouraged.
David: You didn't miss out.
Seth: You didn't miss out.
David: Have no FOMO.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Your persecutors aren't winning.
David: Yes.
Seth: They might claim they're winning, but they're not winning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They'll be put, they'll be put to shame-
David: Okay
Seth: ... very, very quickly.
David: Yep.
Seth: So that's the purpose of what he's writing.
David: Yeah, totally. That's his, that's his purpose.
Seth: Is that satisfying to you with all these details that I've run over?
David: It's satisfying in a different way.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, I think for a lot of us, you know, myself included, um, I, I want answers to all the minutiae and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and everything. But it's actually... A- and, and as much as I've read into all of this stuff, there's so m- much debate, and there's so much division, and there's so many contradicting answers, that finding a satisfying answer is really hard.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, a-... and, uh, so it's satisfying in a different way-
Seth: [chuckles] Yeah.
David: That's, that's not, "Oh, yes, you've answered all my questions about the minutiae", but instead, it's satisfying is I've not missed the point of Thessalonians.
Seth: No, that's right.
David: Right? Like, I, I understand the point of the book and the point of the letter and Paul's intent-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... even if I don't understand what every little historical thing he says-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and what it maps onto.
Seth: That's right.
David: So it's like, yeah, it's, it's satisfying in a different way.
Seth: I wanna talk about what I think this is saying.
David: Yeah, sure.
Seth: But maybe we do that at the end of this episode-
David: Okay
Seth: ... or another episode.
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, but I want us to hone in on the same point here that we honed in on last time. His point here is to decrease the level of anxiety among his people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... particularly as this relates to th- things pertaining to the coming of the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think it's fascinating that these passages, at least in my experience growing up in Christian places, was a source of a lot of anxiety.
David: Right.
Seth: It's the passages like this that made me anxious that world events were spinning out of control or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this person or that person could be the man of lawlessness, and maybe... You know, I was like-
David: Right
Seth: ... I've had an anxious relationship to these passages-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Scripture in the past.
David: And their whole point- [chuckles]
Seth: Their whole point is to calm that anxiousness.
David: Give you hope and faith-
Seth: To- [chuckles]
David: ... and love and encouragement.
Seth: Right. To, to stand firm while I'm being persecuted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and so-
David: If whatever theology we bring into-
Seth: B-
David: ... and out of this, this text-
Seth: That's right
David: ... if we don't come out with hope, faith, love, encouragement, and steadfastness in the face of suffering, we've missed the point.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's good.
Seth: Because God's gonna come-
David: Right
Seth: ... He's gonna judge our enemies, He's gonna vindicate us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and we'll be with Him forever. [upbeat music]
David: Jesus did the same thing, right? Um, we, we've mentioned Matthew 23:24 many times now, and this was... Jesus was getting closer and closer and closer to His execution, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: His death on the cross, He knew was coming, and He would talk about the future that would come, the hope that He had, the faith that He had, right, the steadfastness that He had. He would talk about it with temple language.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He would say, "Tear down this temple, and I'll rebuild it in three days."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's fascinating to know that Jesus was encouraged by the same hope that Paul is trying to encourage the Thessalonians with.
Seth: Okay. Okay.
David: He's saying that, like, Jesus knew that His death and resurrection wo- uh, or sorry, I should say, that His death-
Seth: Mm
David: ... would be vindicated.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Because God had a plan.
Seth: That's right.
David: He was going to raise Him up and then send Him against all the, the wrongdoing of the day.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Whether that was the temple leaders and the temple itself or all evildoers for all time, at the, at the end of time, it didn't matter.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The point was that Jesus knew that there was a day of the Lord for Him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That He would be the Lord-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... whose day it would be, [chuckles] right? And, and that's what is one of the things that gave Him the hope-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the ability to persevere through suffering all the way to the cross, was 'cause He knew that He'd return and not leave one stone, uh, you know, standing on the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, and so now-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and now He's like, "So be encouraged."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is what got Jesus through His death. [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: So it can encourage you, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The day of the Lord is coming, when all the persecution that is against you will be undone.
Seth: Yeah, and in kind of a more intense way, it's like Jesus was his own day of the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: When He dies on the cross, He is being punished for the sins of his persecutors.
David: That's right.
Seth: So like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like, the p- his torturers, the high priest that sent him to Pilate, he's dying for the sins of those pe- the same people who are being persecuted.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's dying as a picture of what will happen to them if they do not choose to follow him.
David: That's right. He is the temple of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that is destroyed-
Seth: That is-
David: ... for the sins of them.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: So these people, who are the, the Thessalonians, can look backwards to the cross and see a day of the Lord there, where the temple of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where God himself was, was avenged. Himself is a weird-
David: Yeah, it's weird. Yeah
Seth: ... uh, but it's like their sins, the... or their persecution, those who are persecuting them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... people who are, like, hurting them, their sins are judged right there.
David: Right there on the tree.
Seth: On their tree. So either my persecutors will repent and join me-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because of what Jesus did on the cross, or what Jesus- Jesus's death on the cross is a picture of the judgment that will soon come upon them.
David: That's right.
Seth: And they will be judged as severely-
David: Right
Seth: ... as Jesus was.
David: Because the temple of Jesus' body was destroyed, I know that judgment is coming against all evil.
Seth: Mm. All evil.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's right.
David: So yeah, it should give hope, encouragement.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. It got Jesus through the cross. It can get you through-
Seth: That's-
David: ... your persecutions.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's the same hope.
Seth: It's the same hope.
David: Mm, that's cool. Okay, what's next?
Seth: Well, um, so in chapter three-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Paul kind of prays for his people yet again. Um, or actually, in chapter three, Paul asks for prayer.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: He asks for prayer. He says, uh, "Pray for us, that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith."
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and then as he's asking for prayer, he starts praying for the Thessalonians again. [chuckles]
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But the Lord is faithful. He'll take care of that, and He will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one. We have confidence in the Lord that you are doing, uh, that you are doing and will continue to do the things that we command. May the Lord direct your hearts-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and guide you, uh, uh, into God's love and Christ's perseverance." He just starts praying for them, which is just sweet. That's what's happening.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then he picks up the same critique he had before about idleness.
David: I wanna talk about that-
Seth: And like, like-
David: ... at the end of 1 Thessalonians.
Seth: At the end of 1 Thessalonians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he says this: "In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not li- live according to the teaching you have received from us."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the first thing he says here, it's like, "We know, Thessalonians, that there are a whole bunch of-... believers among you who are not working and taking advantage of other members of your congregation, you shouldn't tolerate that.
David: Mm.
Seth: And you should find a way to call that out and separate yourselves from them, in a way. Uh, he'll say to- not in, like, a total- at the very end of ch- 2 Thessalonians 3, he says, um, "Do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as your fellow believer."
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's not a cutting away entirely-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's like a stern war- a stiff-arming of this type of idleness that is taking advantage of other members of the community.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, "You can't associate with these type of people anymore." And then he appeals to his and Silas's [chuckles] example when they were living in Thessalonica.
David: Right.
Seth: "We were working day jobs so that we wouldn't be a financial burden to you, but giving of ourselves to you constantly."
David: Mm.
Seth: What does that mean? That means, one thing, that you should be hard workers. These idle people should be hard workers, and you're hamstringing their sanctification by refr- by indulging their laziness.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Uh, and two, it should be that lazy people, you should work hard [chuckles]
David: Right.
Seth: Right? Like, people who are prone to be generous and kind-hearted toward lazy, lazy people should only do that up- like, can't do that forever [chuckles] right-
David: Mm. Right
Seth: ... on one hand. And those who are being idle, they need to, they need to work hard.
David: Mm. Okay, so you're saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that you have maybe wealthier or hardworking Christians-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they're, they're responding to the generosity of Jesus and trying to image that to others.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're trying to imitate God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and bear his image to others, and so they're being generous to those in need among them. Uh, and-
Seth: Yeah, this is how Paul describes the church leaders of-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... of the Thessalonicans. He says this in 1 Thessalonians 5:12, "Acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord, and who admonish you; hold them in high regard."
David: Mm.
Seth: So apparently, the leaders of the church are copying Paul-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Timothy. They're working really hard, spending themselves for the benefit of these people-
David: Right
Seth: ... and exhausting themselves in the pro- process.
David: Right. And that's a good thing.
Seth: That's a good thing.
David: Yep, but, but it's, it's enabling-
Seth: Yep
David: ... uh, those who are not being moved and motivated into hope, faith, and love [chuckles] right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, uh, to, to actually be called up into that image and do the same thing for others. Instead, they're using it as a license for idleness.
Seth: Yep.
David: And he's like, "Just stop, stop it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, stop giving to those kinds of people.
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, you can, you can empower them, right, to, to come and, and follow your image, to be imitators-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of this, this style. So yeah, it's a call for the generous to be good stewards of their generosity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's a call to the idle to image the working generosity of Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that was imaged to them by Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by Paul, and now by their church leaders.
Seth: Yeah, there's a- most commentators are gonna try to make, draw a connection between the idleness in Thessalonica and their misunderstanding of the day of the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and I'm ha- I've had a hard time with trying to draw that line, so maybe you can help me here.
David: Right.
Seth: But, uh, this is me attempting my own version of this, um, is that assuming that the day of the Lord is already occurred, what good does my work do?
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... right? Um, or assuming the day of the Lord has already come, my hard work means nothing.
David: Right.
Seth: Or i- if this is the new heavens and the new earth-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... I'm going to just, like, rest-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the eternal Sabbath rest of God, and I'm not gonna work anymore-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when the other people are willing to work for me. Um, and what's interesting is h- uh, Paul quotes himself-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in verse, uh, 10, and he says this: "Didn't we tell you when we were among you, we gave you this rule: The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat."
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, it seems like he's cribbing off Genesis, the books, uh, the Book of Genesis-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where Adam was told to work in the garden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But then after he exits the garden, it's by the sweat of his brow that he will eat food.
David: Right.
Seth: So there could be a sense in which that they are misunderstanding the way the coming of the Lord will work.
David: Mm.
Seth: And they're assuming if he comes, we won't have to work like Adam did in the garden, and that working is only a product of the fall. [chuckles] Uh, maybe. I, I don't know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I don't know.
David: Yeah, I think to get to any of these, you have to have a very specific view of what that coming of the Lord looks like.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, and-
Seth: And I don't have a specific enough one to like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... necessarily land the connection between idleness-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and a misunderstanding of the day of the Lord.
David: Right. It could easily just be that, "Oh, man, generosity is breaking out in the church."
Seth: Right.
David: And you have people who just don't wanna... Like, who, like, are just-
Seth: Right
David: ... living off of that generosity.
Seth: Yeah, so-
David: And, and it's like-
Seth: This is helpful
David: ... yeah, cool, be a recipient of generosity, but also you ne- like, your, like you said earlier when you were introducing this problem, uh, those recipients of generosity, uh, need to, for their own sanctification, image-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the generous work of their own patrons.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: There's something good about working for the benefit of others-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's like, "Paul, I was with you. I worked hard and gave to you." There's something that is good for our souls-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's imaging God, to work hard for the good of others, and the idle are missing out on that goodness. They're missing out on that ability-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to image God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because they're not working hard for the benefit of others.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: And so it's like, man, do that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's good.
Seth: I like this idea that the reason there are idle people in Thessalonica is because it's like a, it's like a unexpected by-product of the revival taking place in other people.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: And so think about this: Paul has said that, like, the word, word about you guys has spread throughout all Macedonia.
David: Yes.
Seth: So how would that have happened? Well, Ba- well, Thessaloniki, Thessalonica was the capital city of Macedonia.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So anybody who's doing any sort of trading-
David: ... would have come through there.
Seth: Would have come through Thessalonica.
David: They see what's going on.
Seth: And they come and visit the, the Jesus followers in Thessalonica, and they're like, "This is one of the most generous churches I have ever met. They put me up in Jason, Jason's house!"
David: Jason's house?
Seth: It's got purple everywhere. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: And it's crazy. Uh, and it's like, I'm just like... It's like they are such generous people. Everybody in their church's needs are taken care of.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, and so with only three weeks of Bible, three weeks of Bible school under their belt, like, the, the level of discernment they had, though-
David: Mm
Seth: ... about maybe the li- like, when generosity becomes enablement-
David: Right
Seth: ... was not there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so Paul is like, "Hey, guys, let's fix this problem."
David: Right.
Seth: "This is a conversation between brothers. We love each other. There's no reason to kick people out of the church over this issue-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but let's fix this," you know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You guys should start working. You guys don't need to enable their, their laziness."
David: Right.
Seth: "Let's solve that."
David: Yeah.
Seth: I like this idea.
David: Yeah, I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it makes sense. That's pretty cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. [upbeat music]
Seth: All right.
David: Is that where it ends?
Seth: And that's-
David: A word to the idle? [chuckles]
Seth: It is such a strange place for it to end, but yeah, he then says, "Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with you all. Um, I wrote this with my own hand." He s- he signs it himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all," and he ends it.
David: Hmm. Um, I just... I'm like, [exhales] yeah, I wonder, it's like he's talking about this, this day of the Lord. He references so regularly his own, um, method of working hard, you know, while he's with them and while he's teaching.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, like, it does seem to be that as people who live expectant of Jesus's coming, that should motivate us to work, right? We work while we wait.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's part of being sober-minded in a way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is to work for the benefit of others.
Seth: Yeah, to be generous towards others.
David: And-
Seth: Yeah, that's right
David: ... and, uh, yeah, and so it's just interesting to think, like, how, how does idleness tie in? It's like, man, as he's talking about the day the Lord is still coming, you know, wait for it, be sober-minded, be alert-
Seth: Mm
David: ... be awake. It hasn't come yet.
Seth: Right.
David: Don't be idle.
Seth: Right. What is one, like, potential... If I believe that Jesus will vindicate, if I'm putting on the helmet of the inevitable salvation-
David: Right
Seth: ... the hope of inevitable salvation-
David: I'm kicking up my feet.
Seth: Right, it's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there's a, there is a way in which that message could be taken as a license to, like, not try as hard as you should.
David: Right.
Seth: Or even, like, the grace of Jesus Christ feels like an invitation, like, "Well, God's gonna forgive us."
David: Right.
Seth: "We don't need to, like, obey every command." [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: "Uh, God's go- God will cover us when we-
David: Right, right
Seth: ... when we, when we say our Hail Marys." I think there's a sense that you're probably right. It's like, no, the knowledge that God has been gracious towards us, that He's coming soon to avenge our persecutors and bring us to Him, should cause us to be very active-
David: You're right
Seth: ... in our generosity towards others so that they might-
David: Join
Seth: ... join the party.
David: That's right. [chuckles]
Seth: Join the coming Kingdom of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Put on the helmet of hope with us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, that's awesome. All right, so that's 2 Thessalonians. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, it's... Yeah, that-
David: Over quick, it feel, it felt like.
Seth: It does feel over quick because we didn't really answer any of the questions. [chuckles]
David: The, the, the detail questions?
Seth: The, the hard detail questions:
David: Mm.
Seth: Who is the man of lawlessness?
David: Yeah.
Seth: When is Jesus coming back? What is this apostasy like? What are all these things?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think what we should do is have one more episode where we go into all the details. We mentioned before that it's, like, kind of speculative-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to go in the details because obviously the Thessalonians knew precisely what Paul was talking about.
David: Right.
Seth: And we- it seems like we may not-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... have the ability to ascertain that precisely, but I think there are good guesses-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and good ways to look at what Paul is saying to them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which I think we w- should have some fun exploring.
David: And we're not gonna do our podcast friends like that, where we're just like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "We're not gonna give you our take."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "That's... We're not gonna do that."
Seth: We're not gonna do that.
David: We're not.
Seth: We're gonna give you some, the dirty details. [laughing]
David: [laughing] That's awesome. Well, thank you all for joining us, uh, in our journey through 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians. We'll see you next time for a special little chat about some of the details around the day of the Lord and the man of lawlessness and all those fun things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So hope you'll join us there. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]