Seth: [gentle music] My best approximation for what it was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: -is like a human being with four faces and four wings that gleamed like metal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... coming on a cloud full of fire.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he's trying-
David: Yeah
Seth: -to keep up with a physical representation of God's omnipotence, omni-holiness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... omni-directionality. He's like- [chuckles]
David: Totally.
Seth: He's trying.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our walk through the Book of Ezekiel. Last time, we looked at the overall structure of the book. What is prophetic literature? Who was Ezekiel? What was his message about? What was going on? If you missed that episode, make sure to go back and listen to it. Today, we're jumping into the first few chapters of Ezekiel, mainly looking at, at least what I'm hoping for, is what made this 30-year-old rabbi burst into flames-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... when he read the word 'glory' in Ezekiel?
Seth: Yes, the question we're all asking-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when we open up Ezekiel. Uh, if you... To the uninitiated-
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... uh, there's a story in the rabbinic literature of a man who approached Ezekiel unworthily and read the word 'glory,' uh, here in these four opening chapters, and then burst into flames because the picture of God in these passages is so intense.
David: So my expectations are high, Seth.
Seth: High. If we don't burst into flames, we've done something-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: We're either... Wait, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
David: I think we've done something right [laughing] if we don't burst into flames. [laughing]
Seth: Is that a good thing or a bad thing? [laughing]
David: I don't know. All I know is I don't want to burst into flames.
Seth: Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh.
David: All right, so frame up the discussion for us. What do we need to be talking about today?
Seth: Yeah, so as we move forward through the book of, uh, Ezekiel, I kinda wanna attack it following the vision that we're about to see here.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Ezekiel is on- sitting on the bank of an irrigation canal, the, the, the, the Chebar Canal, and he sees the heavens opened, and he sees a vision of God, and later on, he'll say it's a vision of God's glory. I really like BibleProject's explanation, actually.
David: Mm.
Seth: They talk about it. It's like a physical manifestation of the significance of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: What would omnipotence look like?
David: Look like? [chuckles]
Seth: What would all knowledge-
David: My gosh
Seth: ... look like?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What would all power
Seth: feel like?
David: Yeah-
Seth: So-
David: ... when it walked into a room.
Seth: When it walked into a room.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: So that's what Ezekiel's gonna see.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's g- he's gonna see it in Babylon-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when he would've expected it in Israel.
David: In the temple.
Seth: In the temple.
David: God's glory is in the temple.
Seth: Right, and so the story of Ezekiel really is, like, how did God's presence get to Babylon? Why is it in Babylon? How did it get there, and how can it go back?
David: Yeah, okay.
Seth: And so there are really three major movements in the Book of Ezekiel: the very opening chapters, where God's presence shows up in Babylon; then in chapter eight, we see God's presence leaving Jerusalem and all the reasons why he left; and then at the very end, in chapter 43, we see God's presence, his glory, his significance, going back into the temple-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, once again. And so we're gonna... The next three podcasts are gonna follow that movement.
David: So we're gonna follow God's movements.
Seth: That's right, through the book of Ezekiel.
David: Okay, that's cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Great. So i- is this first vision, uh, without cheating and looking at my Bible, is this the, the, the wheels and the eyes-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and the stuff that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... everyone is very confused by?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. I, I should've started the episode with that 'cause everybody wants to know what's going on there.
Seth: Well, yes.
David: But-
Seth: I think before we get to the wheels and the eyes-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and the, the, the, the, the animals with four different faces, um, we should just remember that we're reading prophetic literature, but we're also about to read a subset of prophetic literature, the prophetic commissioning ceremony.
David: Okay.
Seth: So throughout the Bible, when God chooses or commissions one of his spokesmen, he speaks to him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... gives him a message, normally, often at least, shows up in some sort of physical manifestation and tells him that he is his prophet and then sends him out with the message.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it happens throughout the Bible, right?
David: Right, yeah, like Jeremiah, "I chose you. I knew you from your mother's womb." Isaiah, you have the little fire coal.
Seth: Yes, he sees God's throne room-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the co- coal touches his lips.
David: Okay.
Seth: You have Moses and the burning bush-
David: Right
Seth: ... where, like, he, he sees a physical manifestation of God, and then God tells him to go and to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... declare freedom for his people.
David: I mean, I guess it makes sense to have this little bit of subgenre in a prophetic book.
Seth: Yep.
David: Otherwise, it's like, "Were you just always like this, hearing from God? Did you just wake up one morning-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or you just, 'Oh, yeah, I just hear from God all the time, and now I'm a crazy person named Ezekiel.'"
Seth: Nope, yeah, this is- [chuckling] this is a very specific event that happens in the life of God's prophets.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the most interesting one might be Abraham.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We don't really think about Abraham as a prophet, but in Genesis, chapter 20, God calls Abraham a prophet.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Um, and if you think back to his story, it makes a little bit of sense, especially in light of Ezekiel. Abraham is living in Babylon-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... right after the Tower of Babel falls, and all the people are scattered.
David: Right.
Seth: Ezekiel is in Babylon right after he's been scattered.
David: Yep.
Seth: God shows up to him and gives him a covenant with a covenant message that, "You will inherit the land."
David: Mm.
Seth: Part of Ezekiel's prophecy is that they will go back to the land, and in both cases, there is a sense in which Abraham is being promised a new creation, right?... Adam and Eve fell.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Tower of Babel fall, new phase of God's dealing with humankind.
David: Right.
Seth: A people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a new nation.
David: In a new land.
Seth: In a new land.
David: Eden's coming back.
Seth: Right, and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Ezekiel's in a similar place.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jerusalem is on the verge of falling, and if something's gonna happen, it's gonna have to be totally new.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so Abraham is an interesting parallel to Ezekiel.
David: That is interesting, thinking about Ezekiel as a new Abraham.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: A new prophetic Abraham-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... ready to lead God's people into a new covenant era.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A new covenant era.
David: Okay, so what does Ezekiel's prophetic commencement ceremony?
Seth: A commissioning ceremony.
David: I was close.
Seth: Commissioning ceremony.
David: Okay.
Seth: Commissioning ceremony.
David: All right, what's his look like?
Seth: So what his looks like is of- the first thing he gets is a vision of God.
David: Okay, that's a, a good place to start.
Seth: And so we're just gonna read it-
David: Oh, all right
Seth: ... because this is the time to read Ezekiel. Chapter one, verse one: "In the 30th year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day, I was among the exiles by the Kebar Canal, and the heavens opened, and I saw visions of God." [chuckles]
David: Mm.
Seth: And then just jump down with me to verse four, "And as I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, and a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually. And in the midst of the fire, as it were, gleaming metal. And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures, and this was their appearance: They had a human likeness, but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings. Their legs were straight, and the soles of the feet were like the soles of a calf's foot, and they sparkled like burnished bronze. And under their wings on the four sides they had human hands. And the four, uh, had their faces and their wings like this: Their wings touched one another. Each one of them went straight forward without turning as they went." And so imagine, like, a being moving side to side without turning its body.
David: Omnidirectional.
Seth: Uh, yes, like, I, I... The best picture I had was, like, UFOs. If you've ever seen, like, some modern, like, UFO takes, you have this ship that's, like, zooming and then just stops and then goes to the one side-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it's, like, very unnatural looking.
David: Very unnatural. Okay.
Seth: Uh, 'cause it breaks all the laws of physics. "As for the likeness of their faces, each had a human face. The four had the face of a lion on the right side. The four had the face of an ox on the left side. The four had the face of an eagle. Such were their faces." Now, let me ask you a question.
David: Mm.
Seth: Do you wanna stop and talk about each one as we go, or do you want to, [chuckles] uh, read all of it, be overwhelmed by all of it, and then talk about it in its wholeness?
David: I, I, uh, I, I'm already overwhelmed.
Seth: Great.
David: And-
Seth: As you should be.
David: I'm so confused at how this is a prophetic call.
Seth: Oh, yeah. This is just a vision. We don't even get to the call till chapter two.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So it's... This is like... I mean, it's kinda like with Moses, the burning bush. He just sees the burning bush.
David: This thing happens.
Seth: This thing happens-
David: Right
Seth: ... and he's caught up into this, this vision, this event.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or Isaiah-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... gets caught up in the throne room. He's seeing something-
David: I see
Seth: ... before he's commissioned.
David: Okay, okay, okay.
Seth: So this is what... This is Ezekiel's version of that thing.
David: I, I, I see the-
Seth: So should we... Let's pause. Let's slow down.
David: Okay.
Seth: What are we seeing?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [chuckles] I don't... I have no idea.
Seth: Um-
David: An omnidirectional, um, mutant-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, moving UFO. What is happening?
Seth: What's funny is that there's a weird amount of, like, scholarship about, did Ezekiel see a UFO? [chuckles]
David: Oh, are you serious?
Seth: I am. [chuckles]
David: That's so weird.
Seth: It's so weird. Uh, but, uh, it's like, you know, people talk about it because it's so otherworldly. It's like even we have a hard time. What on earth are we seeing?
David: Mm.
Seth: And if you, you, you notice his language, it was, it was like a human. It was like burnished bronze.
David: That's right.
Seth: It was like... He's like, he's, he's trying his hardest.
David: He's not saying, "It is. It was."
Seth: He's like-
David: He's-
Seth: ... "My best approximation for what it was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is like a human being with four faces and four wings that gleamed like metal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... coming on a cloud full of fire."
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he's trying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to keep up with a physical representation of God's omnipotence, omni-holiness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... omni-directionality. He's like- [chuckles]
David: Totally.
Seth: He's trying.
David: I mean, we'd do the same thing. It's like, uh, Megan and I, my wife and I, were driving down the road, uh, like a week or two ago, and this gorgeous sunset was coming down-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and there was just, like, blue and pink, like, tangled threads covering the whole horizon.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I was, I was like, "It's like cotton candy." It looked like cotton candy.
Seth: Right.
David: And I was like, it's not... And if, and if, and if years later, someone said, "David saw cotton candy in the sky," I'd be like, "You, you misunderstand me."
Seth: Mis... I, I had no other words to describe the sunset-
David: [chuckles] That's right
Seth: ... than, like, artificially sweetened- [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... cotton candy. It was like cotton candy.
David: Or for our British listeners, candy floss.
Seth: Candy floss or fairy floss for our Australian-
David: There we go
Seth: ... listeners. [chuckles] Uh-
David: Okay, yes.
Seth: So-
David: He, he's approximating what he's seeing.
Seth: And the things that he's saying, though, the way that he's describing them written down, should also be familiar to us if we've read what happened on Mount Sinai or if we've read the description of the mercy seat in Solomon's Temple. So, for example, that's maybe overwhelming if we're not familiar with it, but in Exodus 18 and in Exodus 24-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... when God's presence falls and comes on top of Mount Sinai-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we're told it's-
David: It's-
Seth: There's a whole bunch of wind.
David: Yep.
Seth: There's a whole-
David: Thunder
Seth: ... bunch of fire. There's a whole bunch of smoke.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, there's a whole bunch of lightning.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right? Uh, eventually, we'll t- there'll be a whole bunch of sapphire in this vision, just like there was sapphire on Exodus's mountain.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's overwhelming, yes, but it should be familiar-
David: Okay, I see
Seth: ... in the s- in the sense that it's like, when God's presence shows up, when God Himself comes somewhere, there are these things.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Fire, smoke, wind, sapphire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That, that's what I'm seeing here.
David: So what that is communicating is it was God.
Seth: It was God.
David: Okay.
Seth: It was God. Yeah, so I think when you're reading this, it's like he's trying to describe God.... and his power.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, [laughs] and he's trying.
David: And you should feel overwhelmed, because it is overwhelming-
Seth: And it is God-
David: But you should also go like, "Oh, this is like Sinai."
Seth: That's right.
David: This is like when God showed up on Mount Sinai.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, and then these creatures.
David: Yes.
Seth: So what are the creatures?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Uh [laughing]
David: Why are you asking me?
Seth: [laughing] Uh, let me just read... So I've described a lot of the features. Let me just describe a little bit more of their wings.
David: Oh, good.
Seth: They-
David: That was gonna be really helpful.
Seth: Because that's gonna be really helpful. [laughing]
David: I was like, I, I would've nailed this- [laughing] ... if you would've told me more about their wings.
Seth: [laughing] Their wings were spread out above. Each creature had two wings-
David: Oh, I get it now.
Seth: [laughing] ... each of which touched the wing of the other, while two covered their bodies, and each went straight forward.
David: Okay.
Seth: Just meaning they just, they, they moved without turning.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They could go any direction without turning.
David: Okay.
Seth: So the reason I bring that up is, there are other places in the Bible that describe the wings of beings that touch each other, namely on the mercy seat.
David: The cherubim.
Seth: The cherubim. The cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant spread out their wings, and they touched each other. If you've seen the Raiders of the Lost Ark, they, like, go like this. [laughing]
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, they touched each other. So what is the- what's this evoking? Oh, this is the most holy presence of God.
David: This, this is the throne of God.
Seth: This is the throne of God.
David: Ah.
Seth: We are in the center of God's power.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay?
David: There's a problem.
Seth: Okay, continue.
David: What's God's throne doing out here?
Seth: Oh, yeah. We're- we'll, we'll get there.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: [laughing] That is a great question.
David: I'm just like-
Seth: That is the question.
David: Oh, okay. Okay.
Seth: That is the question.
David: This is not where it belongs.
Seth: Right. W- the mercy seat's supposed to be
David: in the temple.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing] The Ark of the Covenant is supposed to be in the temple.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Why on earth is it on the side of an irrigation ditch- [laughing] ... in Babylon?
David: That's very bad.
Seth: Very-
David: Okay
Seth: ... this is not where it's supposed to be.
David: All right.
Seth: Uh, let's talk about the creatures a little bit more.
David: Okay.
Seth: Do you wanna keep talking about the creatures?
David: I would love to.
Seth: There's a couple theories about the creatures.
David: Okay.
Seth: One is that Ezekiel, he's been living in Babylon for a little while now. He would've been familiar with the local deities.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so this is a amalgam of some of the local representations of the, their deities.
David: Oh.
Seth: And so what we're gonna see in a second is that these beings are not itself the glory of God, but they carry the glory of God. So in a second we're gonna get this...
David: [laughing]
Seth: It gets crazier. There's so- the, uh, an expanse, a firmament-
David: Okay
Seth: ... like the sepa-
David: Like stars?
Seth: Like stars, or the separation-
David: Oh, between stars
Seth: ... between the stars.
David: Yes.
Seth: The thing that we see when we look up at the sky will be resting on top of these four beings, and on top of that will be God himself.
David: So you have... Okay, hold on.
Seth: Yes. [laughing]
David: So you have an amalgamation of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Babylonian gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: On top of them is space blackness.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then on top of that is Yahweh.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: And so I don't know if I'm helping you at all.
David: I, I could repeat it, but I don't know why we're talking about it.
Seth: One theory for why they are where they are-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is to prove that they are under the power of God.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: They are the servants of God. They are... If they exist at all-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they exist under God's power.
David: Which would make sense if we're talking about, like, "Man, Babylon's destroying Israel. Their gods are conquering our gods."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and God's like, "No, no, no, I ride on them like a chariot."
Seth: Yes, that's exact- and think about... Yeah, that's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Babylon's gonna invade Jerusalem, and Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, will say, "See? Our gods are better."
David: Right. Our god beat your god. [smacks lips] Checkmate.
Seth: And then God's gonna say, "Nope, I was riding on top of your gods." [laughing]
David: Yeah! [laughing]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was the one behind all this.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: That, that makes a lot of sense.
Seth: The other way to think about them is as representations of the whole creative order.
David: Oh, I see. Yep.
Seth: You have domesticated animals-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you have the ox, you have wild animals-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you have the birds, and you have humanity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You have all of creation-
David: Is under God
Seth: ... is under God.
David: Both good news.
Seth: Both... Yeah, both-
David: Both appropriate for this moment.
Seth: Yeah, so again, what are we seeing? We are seeing God.
David: Yep.
Seth: A physical approximation of what omnipotence looks like.
David: Mm.
Seth: And all of these are different aspects of that omnipotence that Ezekiel gets a glimpse of.
David: Okay, so you have Israel's God on the temple throne, reigning over all creation and other gods-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... going where he will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that what the vision-
Seth: That- ... yeah, it keeps-
David: Is?
Seth: It keeps going.
David: Okay, w- okay, but I've got-
Seth: But-
David: I've-
Seth: But you have got-
David: I'm up to speed
Seth: ... you're up to speed.
David: Okay.
Seth: And everything, I think, from now on is just color on that. It's additional details.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's additional, um, information.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: Cool
Seth: ... uh, let's jump down to verse 15. "Now, as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. And as for the appearance of the wheels and their construction, their appearance was like that of gleaming beryl." And beryl's just like a crystal, a clear crystal. "And the four wheels had the same likeness in the appearance and construction, being, as it were, a wheel within a wheel."
David: Oh, like a, like, like spinners on rims of, like, lowrider cars?
Seth: Maybe. [laughing]
David: No. [laughing]
Seth: May- maybe. Or I was imagining it's like you have a wheel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... this way, and then a wheel inside that wheel rotated 90 degrees.
David: Isn't there, like, a Leonardo da Vinci drawing or something of that?
Seth: Yeah, probably.
David: Uh, like a gyros- a gyroscope!
Seth: A gyroscope.
David: Gyroscope is what I'm thinking of.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, think of a gyroscope.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: So they have... These four beings have four gyroscopes next to them.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, and when they went, they went in any of the four directions without turning as they went.
David: Ah, so that's how they're doing it. They're all riding on gyroscopes.
Seth: Yeah, they have these omnidirectional wheels-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that allow them to travel-
David: Oh, my gosh
Seth: ... with-
David: Dude, I remember... Do you remember when four-wheeled omnidirectional suitcases finally came out?
Seth: Oh, I do!
David: If you're a younger listener, you're like-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... "This is all suitcases." But no-
Seth: This is what my kids bring to school. [laughing] ...
David: suitcases had little, like, two of the little legs were just legs, and then the other two wheels were one directional-
Seth: ... yeah,
David: and you could just, and it was, you couldn't turn it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or anything, and now you- it's, it's an-
Seth: So-
David: ... omnidirectional four thing.
Seth: So smooth.
David: So smooth. That's what they're riding on.
Seth: That's what they're riding on.
David: They're riding on, on a way luggage suitcase. [chuckles]
Seth: If you were looking for, if you were looking for a simpler analogy than a gyroscope- [chuckles]
David: Come on, man.
Seth: Lu- luggage wheels.
David: Just luggage wheels.
Seth: Luggage wheels. [laughs]
David: That's what's happening here. Okay, cool.
Seth: And then when the f- and this is verse 19- oh, uh, verse 18. I'm so sorry, I missed a very important detail.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: "And their rims were tall and awesome."
David: Tall and awesome.
Seth: Awesome. [chuckles] This is really funny how the, uh, tone with which you say awesome-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... changes the meaning of the words. [chuckles]
David: Awesome. Or it's awesome.
Seth: It's awesome. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles] It's true.
Seth: They were tall and awesome, man.
David: They were tall and awesome. [chuckles]
Seth: "And the rims of all four were full of eyes all around."
David: Okay, gyroscope covered in eyes.
Seth: Covered in eyes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And-
David: That would hurt the eyes- [chuckles] ... as they rolled on the ground.
Seth: Um, "And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them. And when the living creatures rose from the earth, the wheels rolls, rose. And wherever the spirit wanted them to go, they went, and the wheels rose along with them. And as for the spirit of the living creatures, it was in the wheels, and when those went, they went, and when they stood, they- these stood, and when they rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them."
David: Okay.
Seth: So these four creatures are on top of gyroscopes-
David: Yep
Seth: ... full of eyes, and they share a spirit, and that spirit drives them and moves them. It's like the will of the being and the wheel is the same, and as the spirit moves, so do the, the beings.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, questions.
David: Um, uh, okay, I think I get the, the gyroscope.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, you have this, you have this spirit. I'm guessing there's like this... The mega spirit is God.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And he's directing the wheels-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and the, the, the creatures in, and creation and subjugation to him, and he can move the nations, creation, his throne, whither he will-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in any direction.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, and those wheels have eyes all over them, so he can see where he's going?
Seth: I think probably like-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... maybe, yeah, [chuckles] maybe. But, or just like he sees everything-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... no matter where he goes.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: He sees everything.
David: He's omniscient.
Seth: He's omniscient.
David: Okay.
Seth: He knows all. He sees all.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He knows what's going on in Babylon. He knows what's going on in Assyria.
Seth: Yep.
David: He's hither and thither-
Seth: That's right
David: ... he sees it.
Seth: Uh-
David: Okay
Seth: ... so some people have described the vision that we've seen so far as a chariot.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: So we got-
David: What else do kings ride on?
Seth: Right, but a thing with wheels with beasts attached to it.
David: Yeah, 'cause they would often decorate chariots with the symbols of their gods and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... animals and things like that. Okay.
Seth: That's right. So we're, we're a very real... And this is, if you read any scholarly dealings with this, they'll describe it as a chariot.
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: We've read a description of a divine chariot.
David: Okay, that's helpful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Divine chariot.
Seth: And now we're gonna read that on top of this chariot is the throne of God himself.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's a throne chariot.
David: Throne chariot.
Seth: Let's keep going and describe the throne of God himself.
David: Okay.
Seth: Verse 22: "Over the heads of the living creatures, there was the likeness of an expanse." This is the firmament, the space darkness.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Shining like awe-inspiring crystal-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... spread out above their heads. And under the expanse, their wings were stretched out straight, one towards one another." So I'm just imagining like their four wings form the perimeter around the space darkness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and it's a square of space darkness.
David: Whoa!
Seth: I, I don't- that's maybe a bad... That's what, what my mind sees-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in this moment.
David: Okay.
Seth: "And each creature had two wings covering its body."
David: I- is a different way to say that, that like the perimeter of the angel wings... I, I shouldn't have said angels.
Seth: Yes.
David: The creatures' wings-
Seth: Yes
David: ... are carrying, uh, the heavens with them?
Seth: Yeah, I think that is the implication.
David: Okay.
Seth: Have you seen like, um, carriage that people carry on poles?
David: Oh, I don't know.
Seth: It's like the- it's like old school royalty, that you have this, like, little carriage situation. Aladdin drives on one- rides on one of them.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: And then you have, like, eight people under it with, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... they're carrying it on a pole.
David: Right.
Seth: And the person wi- rides along. I don't know what that's called, but they-
David: I don't either
Seth: ... a daze?
David: I don't know. Kung Fu Panda, he rode on one after becoming the Dragon Warrior.
Seth: So-
David: And it was really heavy for all the little guys trying to carry him.
Seth: [chuckles] So imagining that.
David: [chuckles] Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so it's like they're carrying-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the, the chi-
David: The firmament.
Seth: The firmament.
David: The heavens.
Seth: The heavens itself.
David: Where God dwells.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Cool.
Seth: "And when they went, I heard the sound of their wings, like the sound of many waters, like the sound of the Almighty, a sound of tumult, like the sound of an army." And that's all coded back to Sinai. Similar noises-
David: Oh
Seth: ... are heard on top of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Mount Sinai.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: So it's like a traveling, a traveling Sinai throne.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: "When they stood still, they let down their wings.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads. And when they stood still, they let down their wings. And above the expanse, over their heads, there was the likeness of a throne-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in appearance, like sapphire," just like there was sapphire on top of Mount Sinai. "Uh, and seated above the likeness of a throne was the likeness with a human appearance."
David: Not expecting that.
Seth: "And upwards from what had the appearance of his waist, I saw, as it were, gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire, enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist, I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him, like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain."
David: A rainbow.
Seth: A rainbow. He's like-
David: There's a shorter word for that, yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: There's a shorter word. There's a rainbow of light around him. Uh, "So was the appearance, the brightness. Such was the appearance, the likeness of the glory of the Lord."
David: Oh, he defines it for us.
Seth: He defines it for us.
David: Okay, great.
Seth: "And when I saw it, I fell on my face."
David: I mean, that makes sense.
Seth: "And I heard the voice of the one speaking." Woo!
David: What an entrance.
Seth: What an entrance!
David: Taylor Swift's Eras Tour has nothing on that entrance.
Seth: ... [chuckles] That's what I was waiting for.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: That was what I was waiting for.
David: It was a- that's an entrance.
Seth: That's an entrance.
David: Okay, so God shows up in a sapphire throne, floating above space, surrounded by cherubim-esque creatures, riding on the beasts and gods of the world, driven by his omnipotent, all-seeing spirit wheels.
Seth: Yep.
David: Clear as, clear as a crystal.
Seth: Clear as day. The question we kept asking is, like, why is this vision so intense? And I, I don't think there's a good answer to it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... necessarily, or maybe it's not the question the text wants us to ask. But it's like, there's no other description of God like this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the Bible, um, save for Revelation 4.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, which we could read. It's actually fascinating.
David: Very similar.
Seth: It's so similar.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and it's much shorter, too, which is nice.
David: Yeah, but why is it so intense?
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah.
Seth: But why is it so intense, and why now? [gentle music]
David: Okay, so I mean, I have a thought.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But c- is it... Can we, can we go back to my question yet of like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... what is this doing out here?
Seth: Oh, yes, let's go to there.
David: Because-
Seth: Let's go there
David: ... because it's like, oh, he's- we, we've been told where Ezekiel is.
Seth: Mm.
David: He's in Babylon, and we know where the throne of God is. There's a copy of it in the temple, where the actual glory of God reigns-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is supposed to reign, and it's in the heavens of heavens.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the, you know, the real one. And now, you know, and sometimes in history, like on Sinai, uh, heaven comes to earth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, now heaven has come to earth near Babylon-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and all of the temple imagery is now out near Babylon. Like, his throne-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is out here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What's it doing here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, like, the weird thing.
Seth: So I think the- to answer that question, let's go back to what we talked about last week. What is the primary position of the people of God in exile and in Jerusalem? Ezekiel and Jeremiah have been sent to convince them that what they're doing is wrong, that their idolatry and injustice are wrong.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they keep responding to that by saying, "No, no, no-"
David: God's in the temple.
Seth: "God's in the temple. God owns the land of Israel. God's presence is there. God's king is on the throne."
David: You can't touch us.
Seth: "You can't touch us."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So for God's presence to show up in Babylon, I think the really basic thing it, it communicates to a people who are dead set on hearing nothing but their own privileged position with God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that God is not contained-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the temple they have- are so idolatrously attached to.
David: That's right.
Seth: Or presumptuously attached to it-
David: Right
Seth: ... I should say. Their presumption is unfounded.
David: Right. They thought that God's throne in the Holy of Holies was cemented to the floor, but it actually sits on omnipotent wheels.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it can go wherever he wants. God's presence is not containable.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: And it can go wherever it wants.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: So I think that's a big part of what's happening here. The people, God's people presumptuously believe that God's presence in the temple guarantees them exemption from judgment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It guarantees them exemption from exile or punishment, and that everything's gonna work out fine for them because God's presence is where they expect it to be.
David: That's right. Yeah. Well, then it makes sense, then, why this is such a crazy vision, because there's so many questions that would come up. Like, Ezekiel's saying, "No, it's really God out here. Like, you think he's in there. Let me show you. The real God of gods, who reigns over the whole world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... can go wherever he wants. He is out here."
Seth: The thing that you think was only on Mount Sinai and in the mercy seat is on the banks.
David: Is on the move.
Seth: Is on the move.
David: And he can go wherever he wants.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and that's like, okay, so why the omnidirectional wheels? To prove that he can go wherever he wants. What about the beasts that he's reigning on, or the gods or all of creation?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, he can use Babylon or Israel however he wants. Like, uh, he just... It's the stacked images to prove, uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to a, an obstinate audience-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the real God can do whatever he wants.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that's all correct.
David: That's cool.
Seth: Isn't that cool?
David: Yeah, apocalyptic or prophetic literature, like, when you read it the way it's supposed to be read, is really fascinating, and, like, can communicate in a way that just saying, "God is God, and he can go where- wherever he wants."
Seth: Right. You could say that.
David: You could say that, but it's like, yeah.
Seth: But you wanna hear about eyes?
David: Yeah, it's like, that just does something to you.
Seth: On wheels and wheels. You feel it emotionally-
David: You do
Seth: ... viscerally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So God has left the temple?
Seth: Yeah, or it's like he's not confined to the temple.
David: Ah.
Seth: Right?
David: He can't... Yeah, he's not a slave-
Seth: Right
David: ... that can just be used however you want.
Seth: The, when he gets this vision, it- we are five years away from the destruction of the temple.
David: Okay.
Seth: Five years away from Nebuchadnezzar's invasion and burning the city to the ground, and so in advance of that, we're seeing God moving away from it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and we'll get some more re- and we'll talk about this in a future podcast, but, like, why is it leaving? Is, like, is there a reason for it? And we've hinted at it a number of times. It's, it's the idolatry of God's people.
David: Right.
Seth: And, uh, Ezekiel will make that very explicit in coming chapters. So for now, it's just surprising that it's in Babylon-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and I think to the point that we've been talking about, it's like, "Oh, you presume wrong.
David: Mm.
Seth: You presume wrongly."
David: Is the other thing that's happening here, like... 'Cause if I was in their position, and I was enslaved in Babylon, and I saw God riding out to me o- on a chariot throne, I would think, "Hooray! God's riding out to conquer my captors."
Seth: Yeah, so one interesting thing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it do- it does say in chapter 1, uh, verse 4, that, "I saw the stormy wind, and it came out of the north on a great cloud." And so that might not sound like a ton of helpful information, but th- throughout Jeremiah's prophecy, uh, he describes, like, he summarizes his prophecy as a boiling pot-... coming from the north.
David: Right, and that's Babylon, right?
Seth: And that's Babylon.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But at the very end of Jeremiah's prophecies, another army from the north comes and destroys Bab- uh, Babylon itself.
David: There's always a bigger fish.
Seth: There's always a bigger fish, and in the prophetic literature, it always seems to come from the north.
David: Yes.
Seth: So there is, I think, an implic- it's hinting at the end of the book-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in which Babylon will be judged.
David: I see.
Seth: It's like, "I'm leaving Israel as a judgment on your idolatry."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But-
David: I'm also writing to Babylon-
Seth: I'm-
David: -for its destruction as well."
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: I think that it, it hints at that fact.
David: Awesome.
Seth: I also think what this vision does, it prepares us, like, for the horror of sin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we've talked about is one of the main focus, foci, focuses-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Ezekiel. Like-
David: How so?
Seth: When you see
Seth: God
Seth: in the most vivid and visceral light you can imagine-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I think you begin to see your sin a little bit differently. Like, my relationship to my speedometer gets really different when I see the cop car. [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: That's helpful. Okay, yeah.
Seth: And when I see God like this,
Seth: what I think might deserve a pass, if it's only five miles over-
David: Right
Seth: ... becomes a lot more horrendous.
David: My heart starts beating really fast.
Seth: Well, [chuckles] right.
David: I go five miles under.
Seth: Right. Yeah, that's exactly right.
David: Keep my head down. [chuckles]
Seth: So I think there's a w- a sense in which, like, this vision prepares us for the intensity of language that Ezekiel's about to use to describe Israel's sin-
David: I see
Seth: ... and Israel's idolatry.
David: The reason why the heights of the glory of God are showing up in such magnitude is because of the depths of depravity and sin that we're about to see, with such graphic definition, definition.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think that's happening, too.
David: Okay. Uh, wow. Okay, one last thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... before we leave this vision.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, if, if that's the plan.
Seth: Move on. Yeah, yeah, move on to the-
David: Uh
Seth: ... commissioning ceremony. Yeah, yeah.
David: I just wanna get... I'm like, okay, hold on. Above the wheels, and the animals, and the firmament, and the wings on the throne is a- Human?
Seth: The likeness of a human, that's right.
David: I'm like, Jesus?
Seth: I mean, I think let's micro hook that-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and keep going.
David: Ah.
Seth: Because the, the, the answer is yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And let's get to how it's Jesus.
David: All right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, yes, let's go to chapter two.
David: Chapter two.
Seth: Verse one, "And so this likeness of a human being said to me, 'Son of man, stand up on your feet, and I will speak to you.'" So just, let's pause. Son of man.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Ben Adam-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the Hebrew, Ben Adam, and it's a very unique phrase. It- not a unique phrase in all of Scripture, but it's concentrated primarily here in Ezekiel.
David: Mm.
Seth: 92 times Ezekiel's called the son of man-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... the Ben Adam. His actual name is only used twice-
David: What?
Seth: ... in the entire book, once in a, in a couple verses, and then once when his wife dies.
David: Wow.
Seth: And that's a c- a conversation for another day.
David: His poor wife.
Seth: His poor wife. But God's primary identification of Ezekiel is as the son of Adam-
David: Okay
Seth: ... or the son of Man, son of Adam.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: And I wanna, like, focus on that for a second, um, because it just should start ringing alarm bells for us.
David: Mm.
Seth: God's primary identification of Ezekiel is as one of the, the first king of the world, the f- the, the first garden creature, the first-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... image of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And so I... And I think that's very intentional-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on God's part to refer to him as the son of Adam. We talked back in the first podcast about how there's this inevitability of an year of jubilee-
David: A new creation
Seth: ... and a new creation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We talked about how Ezekiel is a lot like Abraham, on the verge of people of God receiving a new covenant, enter into the land for the first time. It's a new, a new creation's happening.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I think it's supposed to clue us into the fact that the things that Ezekiel is going to say, he's a prophet of new creation. He's a son of Adam.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's... The things he will speak about will bring about a new creation for God's people.
David: Mm.
Seth: Is that, is that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Are you tracking?
David: Making total sense, yeah.
Seth: And then think about the images we've already seen in this divine throne chariot scene that should remind us of creation itself.
David: Oh, sure. Yeah.
Seth: We have God's spirit hovering over the waters outside Babylon.
David: Mm.
Seth: There is light and color, uh, that just shows up on the scene first, before anything else shows up.
David: Mm.
Seth: Light. God sits above the expanse or the firmament-
David: Right
Seth: ... just l- and those are the same words used in Genesis-
David: Crazy
Seth: ... to describe the division between the world and God's presence. And then when the voice speaks right here, "And he spoke to me. The spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me." That's exactly how Adam is created.
David: God breathed.
Seth: God breathes into him and raises him up off the ground.
David: 'Cause the spirit, the ruach, is the same word, spirit, breath.
Seth: That's right.
David: Wow.
Seth: Yes. We've already said that the four creatures could be a symbol of, like, the four... Like, the all of created order.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like a, like a, a symbol for all of created order, and in just a second, we'll learn that Ezekiel s- sits paralyzed for seven days-
David: Wow
Seth: ... uh, after seeing this whole thing.
David: I don't blame him.
Seth: Uh, [chuckles] yeah, I don't blame him either. The, the thing I'm pointing out here is that God seems to understand, and Ezekiel seems to understand, that this whole commissioning ceremony is laser-focused on being a prophet of new creation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... bringing a new jubilee for God's people, a new era for God's people after exile.
David: Well, yeah, and it's like, what, what came before new creation? Wild and waste.
Seth: Wild and waste. Chaos.
David: Like, what, what opened... There- the Spirit was hovering over the dark-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the chaotic, and the blackness.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, that is what's about to come in five years-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Israel. The temple's gonna be destroyed. Babylon's gonna ruin everything-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and you'll have wild and waste.
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: So you're gonna need a prophet of new creation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to show how the promises of God, despite the horrors of sin-
Seth: Yes
David: ... will continue into-... uh, a new Eden.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's very cool, man.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I- that's really awesome.
Seth: And the other Eden parallel is in, actually in chapter 3, uh, verse 1. Uh, "Son of Adam, eat whatever you find here."
David: Mm.
Seth: So this is exactly what God says to Adam and Eve-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in the Garden. Like, "Eat whatever you see." And then he gives him a scroll. He says, "Eat this scroll, and go and speak to the house of Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: "So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat. And he said to me, 'Son of man, feed your belly with this scroll that I give you, and fill your stomach with it.' And then I ate it, and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey." So the, this scroll is the prophecies of new creation. Although, I mean, I'll, I'll say it differently. He says, the sc- all written on the scroll are prophecies of, of mourning and lamentation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's a scroll of judgment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and he's supposed to eat it, but it's a sweet taste to him.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the ending prophecies of Jeremiah are all about restoration. So I think there's a little bit of both happening there. It's p- I mean, well, as we, as we'll get into the details, the heaviness of the sin, the mourning, and the lamentation is real.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's judging Israel's sin. However, there is a new creation implied in every inch of these opening, this opening commission.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um-
David: So Ezekiel's commissioning is that of a... He's call- he sees the, the glory of God going wherever it wants, riding away from the temple into Babylon, and he's commissioned to be a prophet of new creation, who will speak bitter words of mourning and lamentation about Israel's destruction, but the aftertaste of that prophecy will be sweet-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in new creation.
Seth: Yeah, that's exactly right.
David: That's chapters one-
Seth: That's chapter-
David: ... two, and three.
Seth: That's chapters one, two, and three.
David: Okay.
Seth: So fun, right?
David: That's very cool.
Seth: I, I w- we were kind of reeling after seeing all these-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... new creation parallels.
David: Wow.
Seth: But back to your question.
David: Yes, 'cause I was like, uh, now I'm like, okay-
Seth: Where's Jesus?
David: I wanna talk about that.
Seth: I think the way we see Jesus in this passage of scripture is by reading Jesus's commissioning ceremony.
David: Oh, okay. Would that be his baptism?
Seth: His baptism.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Luke 4, Matthew, Mark, uh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... John hints, [clears throat] hints at it. And the way each of those stories of Jesus's baptism begins with the words, "And the heavens opened."
David: Mm.
Seth: Interestingly, Ezekiel 1:1,
Seth: "I was on the Kebar Canal, and the heavens were opened-
David: Wow
Seth: ... and I saw visions of God." The only place those verbs, that noun, that verb, and that noun are placed together are in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, when they describe Jesus' baptism, and Ezekiel 1:1.
David: That's crazy.
Seth: Isn't that crazy?
David: It seems like such... It would be such a common phrase, because it's common to us, because-
Seth: It's common to us-
David: ... the gospel story
Seth: -because we read the gospel story so often.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, uh, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and I think in particular, Luke-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is trying to clue us into the fact that what we're seeing here is the commissioning of a greater Ezekiel.
David: An, a, a new prophet of new creation.
Seth: A new prophet of new creation.
David: Whoa.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: The ultimate Ben Adam.
Seth: We're- Luke also gives us this fascinating detail that no other gospel account does. He tells us that Jesus is about 30 years old. What's the first detail we learn about Ezekiel's prophecy?
David: Thir- 30th year.
Seth: In the 30th year. Oh, how fascinating! John talks about someone who's coming, who will baptize his people with the Holy Spirit and with fire. What is all around that first vision?
David: Spirit.
Seth: Spirit and flame. [chuckles]
David: Fire and flame. [chuckles]
Seth: Spirit and flame. Uh, and then when Jesus walks on the Jordan River, obviously, the heavens open, and then what happens? A winged being comes on top of Jesus.
David: Something like a dove.
Seth: Something like a dove, and then a voice speaks from heaven-
David: Stop. [chuckles]
Seth: ... just like it does in Ezekiel.
David: Crazy. [chuckles]
Seth: And then what does Luke do exactly after this moment? He gives Jesus's genealogy. And we're like, "Weird," until it gets to the very end, when it calls Jesus Ben Adam-
David: Oh, my Gosh
Seth: ... Son of Adam-
David: Son of Adam
Seth: ... Son of God. And then Jesus goes into the wilderness.
David: And he's told to eat something.
Seth: And he's told to eat something.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Well, actually, the Satan, Satan tempts him to eat with some bread.
David: Right.
Seth: And he responds with the phrase, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but every word-
David: Right
Seth: ... from God."
David: He's like, "I'm not gonna eat bread, I'm gonna eat God's words," which is exactly what God tells Ezekiel to do right after he's commissioned.
Seth: That's ex-
David: Stop!
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: What in the world? [chuckles]
Seth: And then, when Jesus walks out of the desert, what's the first thing he does?
David: Pr- he gives a prophecy?
Seth: He picks up the scroll of Isaiah.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And in Luke 4-
David: Proclaims the year of Jubilee
Seth: ... proclaims the ye- the freedom of the captives and the year of Jubilee.
David: This hurts.
Seth: [chuckles] Jesus-
David: This is too much
Seth: ... is the new Ezekiel. Um, but more than that, it is God himself, right?
David: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's right.
Seth: I mean, I may have blown your mind-
David: Yep
Seth: ... I just blew past Jesus as the new Ezekiel, but it's also the glory of God that overwhelmed Ezekiel into a coma-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the one walking with John the Baptist.
David: Yeah. [laughing] I have to pick up my brain from the floor. Okay, hold on. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... let me, let me try, let me try this out. So you have the, this huge vision of God conquering all creation and riding on top of all other gods, knowing all, moving in all places, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. He's throne chariot can go wherever it wants. He sits above the firmament, and all creation power is in his hands, and on his throne is one who looks like a human, and that human comes to earth in... as a real human, Jesus, and does the work that Ezekiel was called to do in a greater measure, which is to proclaim new creation after judgment.
Seth: That's exactly right. [chuckles] You did it all. You did the work.
David: ... [sighs] What does that mean for us?
Seth: [laughing]
David: Why is that- why- it's, it's extremely cool. Why is it good news?
Seth: Oh, man.
David: What is this, like, why, why am I gonna hit stop recording this episode and then just wanna worship-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because of this fact?
Seth: I think Luke assumes that by coding his opening account of Jesus' ministry, that God's people are still in exile.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That there is a sense in which God's people are separated from their God, separated from their eternal home, and are living under some sort of presumption otherwise. You know, or, like, idolatrously connected to their own efforts, to their own temple, to their own ethnicity, whatever. And Jesus comes on the scene and is repeating the same things that Ezekiel's doing, to show that there's a new creation better than what's happening in the people of Israel's life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in that time. But, I mean, this might be a long way to, to answer your question, but it's... Like, I think the point is, like, we're supposed to see ourselves as these exiles, right?
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Um, Luke-
David: Guilty of horrific sin, in desperate need of a jubilee, of rescue-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and remittance.
Seth: Yeah, and I mean, it's like, we, like everybody in Jesus's narrative, doesn't believe that Jesus has to die. It's, it's-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's not the right way for the Messiah to go.
David: Yeah, we want the honey, not the mourning and lamentation.
Seth: Right. That's not God being faithful to his covenant, if the Messiah dies.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Jesus comes on the scene and says, "No, no, your sin is as bad as it is, and I will die for it."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I'm going... Like, this is me being covenantally faithful."
David: "Just as destroying the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Ezekiel's day was me keeping covenant faithfulness to curse the evil-
Seth: Yep
David: ... I will become the temple and be destroyed to curse the evil-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and keep my covenant faithfulness."
Seth: "So that we, all people who trust in me, get the new creation of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not because they deserve it and they're not horrifically sinful-
David: Right
Seth: ... but because I've done all the work to make it happen."
David: "I will take the kingdom of sin, bring it into wild and waste, [chuckles] take it back-
Seth: Yep
David: ... strip it down, and build up a new kingdom of righteousness and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... goodness, a new Eden-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the midst of your sin, and none of the horrific things you've done will keep me from doing it."
Seth: That's right.
David: "Why? Because I'm the God who rides on the chariot, and I go where I want and do what I want, and what I wanna do is love you to death-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and bring you to life."
Seth: "What I wanna do is be faithful to the covenant I set."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I will judge evil, not on you anymore, in me, and I will bring you to new creation by my power alone. Let's go."
David: Let's go!
Seth: Let's go. Yeah.
David: That's awesome. Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that the ground you wanted to cover today?
Seth: That's the ground I wanted to cover today. [chuckles]
David: Okay. [chuckles] What's next for us in Ezekiel?
Seth: What's next for us in Ezekiel is we'll get into... Okay, we said we're gonna follow the journey of God's throne chariot. So it's in Babylon-
David: Right
Seth: ... well, we expect it to be in Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: So why did it leave Israel? Why did- why is it here?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Why is it in Babylon?
David: Okay.
Seth: And so Jeremiah's gonna answer that question for us.
David: I hope Ezekiel answers it.
Seth: Or, sorry, [chuckles] Ezekiel answers that question for us. Um, and, uh, we'll, we'll talk about his kind of prophecies of woe and lamentations-
David: Okay
Seth: ... uh, next time. Uh, and then we'll get to talk about the promises of restoration and new Eden afterwards.
David: Okay. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast. Please continue to walk through the book of Ezekiel with us. We're very excited to see what's next. So thank you for listening, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]