Seth: [gentle music] I'm giving you a picture of the destruction of Jerusalem beforehand. I'm showing you all this to h- to show you how terrible your sin is.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not just you're making political deals and hedging your bets.
David: Right.
Seth: That's a really prosaic way of saying that you are worshiping spiders.
David: Yeah.
Seth: [chuckles] Right? Right, like-
David: Right.
Seth: So he's like... He's in this mode of trying to provoke shock and awe-
David: Yes
Seth: ... among the exiles.
David: Right. Because- 'Cause they've been doing this for a long time.
Seth: A long time.
David: It has become super commonplace.
Seth: This is, this is the way they've always-
David: Right
Seth: ... dealt with God and other gods-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and other nations. And so Ezekiel is in this mode of trying to shock them, to s- show them what this deserves.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our walk through the Book of Ezekiel. We have looked at what the book is, what prophetic literature is, where it is in space and time, in the history of Israel, and now we've walked through the first, like, three chapters or so.
Seth: Yep.
David: The opening, surprising, staggering visions that Ezekiel saw-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of God on his throne chariot, moving wherever he wants, having dominion over all creation and on all other gods, and he's not where Israel thinks he should be, locked in the temple, doing whatever they want.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, he is showing, "I'm leaving the temple. The temple will fall."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now we're gonna hear some of the reasons why it's falling and the harbingers of doom, the mourning and lamentations. Here we go.
Seth: Yeah. I feel like you're getting increasingly proud of how good your summaries are. [laughing] It's, like, a skill that you've been working on secretly in the dark.
David: I've been doing it for years now. [laughing] It's just, it's just, I got reps-
Seth: The-
David: ... I got the reps in.
Seth: Yes, we are following the journey of the throne of God out, like, it- from Babylon, how did it get there, and how it's gonna get back.
David: Yes.
Seth: So that's what we're gonna talk about today, how and why is God's throne chariot not where it's supposed to be, in the temple?
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Awesome. Uh, anything else we need to have in our brains? If you haven't listened to the first two episodes of Ezekiel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we highly encourage you to go back.
Seth: Yes.
David: Listen to those to have the right framework.
Seth: If just, like, some contextual stuff, once you get out of chapter 3, the next, all the way up to chapter 33, the prophecies from chapter 3 to 33 happen within the space of five years.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in those five years, Ezekiel is prophesying the fall of Jerusalem, the need for the exiles to repent of the idolatry that they've carried with them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... from, uh, Jerusalem and are still committing in exile, and trying to convince them of the horror of their sin for these 30 chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And is, so is his goal... What is Ezekiel's goal? 'Cause I think about Jeremiah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "Repent!"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Change." What's Ezekiel's prophetic goal?
Seth: It's interesting, 'cause we, as we were studying for this, we kept thinking, like, "Is his goal to help them repent, like, make them repent?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Interestingly, he only tells them to repent twice.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, he says that God does not delight in the death of the wicked-
David: Right
Seth: ... calling them the wicked people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But nevertheless, they should repent.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's actually a, um, it seems to be a minor theme, although... or maybe an implicit theme more than an explicit theme in Ezekiel. I think Ezekiel's goal, more so than to communicate the need for repentance, although that is implicit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's to convince them of the horror of their sin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to see how heinous-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what they've done is when they look at the glory throne chariot-
David: I see
Seth: ... that is in Babylon with them.
David: And is some of the purpose of that to get them to come around to the judgment that has been pronounced on them, that God is upholding the covenant-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... promises that he will curse the wicked?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they need to see that they are the wicked, and therefore, they can s- stop disagreeing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with the, the curse that's coming-
Seth: Yeah, we said-
David: ... and they can actually say, like, "Oh, yep, God is riding out against us, and he's right."
Seth: That's right. Like, over and over again, uniquely to Ezekiel, he uses the phrase, "So that you would know that I am the Lord. So that you would know that I am Yahweh, the, the covenant God."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so... And he uses that primarily in these prophecies of judgment. Like, "In judgment, I want you to know that I am the covenant God. You think my covenant is limited to the positive things that I will do for Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... giving you a land, giving you a king, giving you a place to live forever, but my covenant also said that I will judge you if you fail the covenant commands." And so he's really focusing in on, like, "I want you to know that I am the covenant God in my judgment."
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think if they don't believe that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if you don't believe God is being faithful to his covenant and judgment, you will not believe that he will be faithful to restore you.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: So you, you kinda need the first one. If you believe that God's only gonna do good things for you, and then you experience bad things, you're actually gonna doubt the good things were ever from God in the first place.
David: Yeah, that's right. You, you will think God's a liar-
Seth: That's right
David: ... or he's incapable.
Seth: Yes.
David: And maybe Babylonians' god- Babylon's gods really did beat him.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: So Ezekiel wants to convince them of the horror of their sin, the necessity of God's judgment, so that he can be faithful to his-
David: Mm
Seth: ... covenant, so that he might restore them to the promises, to the kingdom, to the land-
David: I see
Seth: ... that they know that it's supposed to be theirs.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: If they know that their sins are horrible, they will know that God is faithful. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is a weird thing, but it makes sense now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay
Seth: .... and there might be a sense in which that repentance only comes after seeing the horror of your sin.
David: That's right.
Seth: And only once you've seen God's glory for what it is, you've seen what your, your sin looks like compared to that glory.
David: Do you wanna actually turn away from it?
Seth: D- yeah, that's exactly right.
David: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, well, where are we picking up in the-
Seth: So-
David: -book of Ezekiel?
Seth: Let's pick up in Ezekiel chapter 8.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, what we're about to read, and we're gonna read 18 verses. What we're about to read here is God picks Ezekiel up and brings him back to Jerusalem, and that throne chariot is gonna be back in Jerusalem.
David: And is this a vision or the-
Seth: It's a, it's a vision.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's a vision. And while he's there, God is gonna take him progressively deeper into the temple. So he's gonna start at the outside wall and move into the most holy place, and as he moves through the temple, Ezekiel's gonna see what God sees.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he's gonna see idolatry, he's gonna see unfaithfulness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then he's gonna say, "This is the reason why I'm leaving the temple."
David: Oh, wow. Okay.
Seth: "What you're, what you're seeing right now is why I'm leaving and why I'm in Babylon."
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's what we're about to read.
David: So God's gonna give Ezekiel his view of the temple?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So eight, chapter one. "In the sixth year, in the sixth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I sat in my house with the elders of Judah sitting before me, the hand of the Lord God fell upon me there. And then I looked, and behold, a form that had the appearance of a man," same way he's described the, you know-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the being on top of the throne before. "And below what appeared to be his [chuckles] waist was fire, and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness, like gleaming metal."
David: Same description.
Seth: "And he put out the form of a hand, and he took me by the lock of my head, and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, and to the entrance of the gateway of the inner court that faces north."
David: And that's the temple.
Seth: That's the temple.
David: Yep.
Seth: "And there, at the entrance of the gate, was the seat of the image of jealousy-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... which provokes to jealousy. And behold, the glory of God of Israel was there, like the vision that I saw in the valley."
David: What is the seat of the image of jealousy that provokes jealousy?
Seth: We don't know precisely what it is, but what is clear is that at the northern entrance to the temple, there is some sort of idol.
David: Right, something that... And it's provoking God to jealousy.
Seth: He's like, "I... This is my people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and I want to be in a relationship with you, yet you've erected a monument to another god that you would prefer to be in a relationship with."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And it, it's provoking me to jealousy." So-
David: At, yeah, the north entrance to the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... there's a idol-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that Israel is, uh, cheating on God with.
Seth: That's right.
David: And God is provoked to jealousy.
Seth: That's right. And so that's the first thing he sees.
David: Okay.
Seth: He's like, "Okay, g-", and that's not good. That's not good.
David: Not good.
Seth: That... it's, I mean, it's the first c- they're breaking the first and second commandment.
David: Yep.
Seth: "You shall have no other gods before me, and you should not make any images."
David: Yep.
Seth: And-
David: Not a strong start.
Seth: Not a strong start.
Seth: [chuckles] Yeah.
Seth: "And then he said to me, 'Son of man, lift up your eyes now towards the north.' And so I lifted up my eyes towards the north. And behold, north of the altar gate, in the entrance, was this image of jealousy. And he said to me..." The one that we've just seen, the same image of jealousy. "Son of man, do you see what they are doing? The great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here to drive me away from the sanctuary. But you will still see greater abominations."
David: Mm.
Seth: So this is really just a continuation of God's opinion of the, the idol of jealousy.
David: Yes.
Seth: "This is an abomination. This is the... Are you seeing what I'm seeing, Ezekiel?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "This is the reason why I'm leaving."
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that, and that's the wrinkle he's adding here, is like, "You're driving me out."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You think that I could never leave, that I'm bound here, but I'm actually being driven out by your covenant breaking."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yep. "And then he brought me to the entrance of the court," moving deeper, "and when I looked, behold, there was a small hole in the wall. And then he said to me, 'Son of man, dig in the wall.' And so I dug in the wall, and behold, there was an entrance. And he said to me, 'Go in and see the vile abominations that are being committed here.'" And so just imagine, like, you see a wall-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... an interior wall to this temple structure, and you start digging through it, and then inside the wall is a whole 'nother room, right? So that's-
David: W- why didn't he just go through, like, the door?
Seth: I'm not entirely [chuckles] sure-
David: Okay [chuckles]
Seth: ... why. I think maybe to highlight the hidden-ness of this-
David: Oh, that makes sense
Seth: ... or the secretiveness of this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I- it depending on which temple blueprint you read in Scripture, there are rooms inside the walls of the temple-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, guard rooms or cooking rooms or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... places for the priests to put their things. Like, there are rooms in the wall, so it might be one of those.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's coming in through a secret entrance.
David: Yeah, it's... What's going on behind closed doors?
Seth: Yeah, that's-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's the, that's what you're supposed to take away from that.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: Verse 10: "So I went in and saw, and there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping thing and loathsome beasts, snakes, scorpions, spiders, millipedes, crawling on the walls, and all the idols of the house of Israel. And before them stood 70 men of the elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah, the son of Shaphan, standing among them. And each had his censer in his hand, and the smoke of the cloud of incense went up. And then God said to me, 'Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, each in his room of pictures? For they say, The Lord does not see us. The Lord has forsaken this land.' And so he said to me, 'You will still see greater abominations than this that they commit.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: So Ezekiel goes in a wall and sees them offering incense to other gods, and as they're doing so, they see all these- he sees all these creepy crawlies all over the walls, all over the floors, around the, the feet of the priests.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is a very disturbing image.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I'm just imagining, like, Temple of Doom in Indiana Jones.
David: Totally what I was thinking about.
Seth: Like, cl- cloaks and animals and monkey heads.
David: Yes.
Seth: There's just this gross, pagan-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, terrifying, obscene quality to what's happening, hidden in a room inside the temple.
David: ... yeah, that's, that's very disturbing. What- why are they saying that God has forsaken Israel? Like, I, I get, I get that, that they would say, like, "Oh, God doesn't know what's going on."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but then they say, "He's, he's, he's forsaken us. He's left already," when I thought the whole idea of, like, temple-centric worship was God's bound to the temple, he doesn't leave. Or was it- or, or had they made the temple an idol instead of a house?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, I'm trying to figure out what's going on here.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes. That's a really good question. So what we've been saying up to this point is that the people of God presumptuously believe that regardless of what they do, God is committed to the land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he's gonna protect them and it, and it's not gonna be a problem. That might be a little simplistic.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not, uh... We don't have to assume that every Israelite thought the same way.
David: Yeah, they had a homogenous theology.
Seth: Yeah, the, uh, the, is- the Israelite, Israelite presumption wasn't monolithic-
David: Right
Seth: ... and everyone had the same problem. If you read the Book of Kings-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the Book of Chronicles, you'll see king after king after king kind of go back and forth on their relationship with God, and not trusting that God would deliver them or protect them from this army or that army, make a deal with another army-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or another nation, import their gods as a sign of good faith, and yoke themselves to Egypt, uh, or to Syria-
David: Right
Seth: ... or to whoever else, in hopes of staying Babylon's invasion-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or Assyria's invasion. So I think it just could be that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, God's people or these priests say, like, "God is not protecting us," or, "We don't believe that God will protect us."
David: Right.
Seth: "So we're going to make a deal."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "We're gonna make a deal with the devil."
David: Right.
Seth: "We're gonna-
David: With these other idols.
Seth: "We're gonna make a deal with th- these other nations, import their idols here-
David: Right
Seth: ... in hopes that they will protect us when God doesn't seem like he will be."
David: Yeah, that makes sense. The other two things I thought of af- after you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as you were talking, was, one was, they could have seen the temple as just another idol.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not the place where God lives necessarily.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's just, "As long as we have the temple, we're okay"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is one thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, apart from the relational reality of the God who dwells in it. The other thing that could be is that's why he digs through the wall-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is everybody else in Israel, you know-
Seth: Ah
David: ... thinks that God's there, everything's peachy keen, it's good, but then you dig through the wall, and you get to the secret room, and the priests are like, "No, the only reason why everything's okay right now is 'cause we're keeping everything together-
Seth: Mm
David: ... with duct tape by worshiping these other false gods."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's, and there's this... Yeah, the deal with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the devil is actually there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Everybody thinks it's Yahweh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but they've got s- they've got a demon-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in the temple.
Seth: That's fascinating. The other thing that's interesting here is they call... The, the, the people doing this are the elders of the house of Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: So-
David: Is that different than the priests?
Seth: I, I mean, that's what I'm wondering.
David: Mm.
Seth: I, I didn't, I didn't research that ahead of time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But my gue- and he's also, if we, you remember back to the beginning of chapter 8, he's talking to the elders of Judah sitting in exile.
David: Yes.
Seth: The other thing that might be more convincing than anything we've said before-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that the leadership of Israel is just speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
David: Oh, they're hypocrites.
Seth: They're hypocrites.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: Like, they believe God is for them. The land is God's, the temple is God's, we are God's, the, it's God's king, but they don't... When push comes to shove, what they're really doing is political machinations. They're making deals behind the scenes. They're making treaties with other nations and foreign allies. They're importing their gods to hedge their bets.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's
Seth: a form of distrust in God.
David: Right.
Seth: They're doing all this stuff, and it's, it's all lip service to God.
David: Totally.
Seth: It's like-
David: We don't do that.
Seth: We don't do that at all.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: And fascinatingly, like, you know how Jesus calls the Pharisees whitewashed tombs?
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, that, that phraseology comes from Ezekiel.
David: Ah.
Seth: He calls a religious leader, the leadership of Israel, uh, whitewashed walls.
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is interesting because he just dug through a wall. On the outside, you're saying, "Everything's fine."
David: "Everything's good." Yep.
Seth: "Everything's good. We worship Yahweh." But inside of the walls, what is there?
David: Yep.
Seth: It's you're just wheeling and dealing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You don't actually trust God. You trust your money, you trust your power, you trust alliances with other nations.
David: Mm.
Seth: This temple's corrupt.
David: Man, what would God see if he crawled through the walls-
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... of your church? [laughing] Okay, moving on.
Seth: Moving on. Uh, so he goes deeper into the court.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, verse 14: "Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz," an ancient fertility god in Babylon.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Uh, and then he said to me, "Have you seen this, O son of man? Yet you will see greater abominations than these."
David: They're weeping for the fertility goddess-
Seth: Tammuz
David: ... and this is like, uh, like they're begging her for children, or-
Seth: From the, the mythology that I read-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is that the tears of the worshipers, uh, would
Seth: cause the goddess to bring rain on the land.
David: Ah.
Seth: And so the, the, the worshipers would stir themselves up to tears-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to cause the god to bring rain to the land.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So they're not trusting God for fertility in the land, they are trusting Tammuz.
David: Okay.
Seth: The elders of l- Israel are not trusting God for p- protection-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they're trusting other nations.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um-
David: And then he's like, "Keep digging. Let's see more abominations."
Seth: Yes. "And then he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord," so right in front of the Holy of Holies-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "between the porch and the altar, were about 25 men with their backs to the temple of the Lord and their faces towards the east, worshiping the sun towards the east."
David: Whoa!
Seth: "And then he said to me, 'Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they have committed here, and that they fill the land with violence and provoke me to further anger?'"... behold, they put the branch to their nose, [chuckles] and therefore, I will act in my wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So you have the women of Israel weeping, you have the leaders of Israel wheeling and dealing behind the walls-
David: Yep.
Seth: -and now you have the priests of God themselves-
David: Worshiping the sun?
Seth: -turning their backs on God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and worshiping the sun.
David: Which is crazy, 'cause it's like when God's glory came into the Holy of Holies, it was with this brightness that could not be looked upon.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they turn away-
Seth: That's fascinating
David: ... from the brightness of the glory of God to look at a created light that He made.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: Ugh!
Seth: Yes.
David: Ouch. Is it- is the, is the fact that there's 25 men, 25 priests, significant in any way?
Seth: It is half a jubilee. So we've talked about-
David: Oh, that's interesting.
Seth: We've talked about how jubilee is a major theme.
David: Yep.
Seth: Number 50 and 49 are significant. So it could be... It's like, oh, it's a only 20- it's 25.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, it's like half a jubilee. We are-
David: We're not there.
Seth: We're not there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: Going the wrong way
Seth: ... although Ezekiel will use 25 positively-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... later on.
David: Okay.
Seth: So maybe it's just meant to evoke, like, the full number of proper priests-
David: Is here
Seth: ... is here.
David: And they're doing the wrong thing.
Seth: And they're all doing the wrong thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So either way-
David: The show is there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Yeah. What is it? What's the phrase? Uh, they, they've got the meat but not the sizzle. [laughing]
Seth: All steak and no sizzle.
David: All steak and no sizzle.
Seth: All steak and no sizzle.
David: That's it, yeah.
Seth: All steak and no sizzle.
David: [chuckles] Gotta bone up on my colloquialisms.
Seth: That's, uh, that... If David, uh, if David was a prophet to Israel-
David: That's a lot-
Seth: ... "You guys are all steak and no sizzle." [chuckles]
David: No sizzle. That's what I would've said. [laughing]
Seth: So this is why God is leaving.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So what's... We're... I'll, I'll skip- I'll narrate for you what happens in the next chapter. After God gives Ezekiel a tour of the abominations in the temple, God calls six men with swords to the gate of the temple.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he says, "I want you to execute all who I tell you to execute." And before he does that, he has a man dressed in linen with a pen in his hand come next to the six-man army-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and tells him to mark on the foreheads of everybody in the temple who are God's true people and God's true worshipers. And then everybody he does not mark gets killed.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then... I can see you have questions.
David: Uh, uh, yeah.
Seth: Yep. Go, go for it.
David: Okay, well, before I get into my questions about what sounds like the Book of Revelation to me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... [chuckles] um, I wanna, I wanna go back to chapter 8 and, and, and reflect on the story of Jesus. Because you already mentioned, like, Jesus used the same language to talk about the p- the, uh, religious environment that he was in in his day. You have Pharisees, whitewashed tombs, corrupt priests. You have this whole thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... going on. Um, and so, and that's an interesting connection.
Seth: Yes.
David: But I, uh, now, that made me wanna think about, what's the good news of Jesus as the consistent priest?
Seth: Hmm.
David: The, the, the, the, the white temp- the white walls and the white center.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... you know, like, the, it's just fascinating to think about, um, eh, through a, a history of never-ending corruption, it seems, that if you dig through enough walls, you're always gonna find an abomination.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That in Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the further into the center of him you get, there is only more faithfulness [chuckles] and consistency and goodness. Uh, I just didn't-
Seth: Yes.
David: I was just-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like, thinking about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it just adds a new layer of, okay, Jesus is the new Ezekiel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, well, no wonder he had a big problem with the Pharisees.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's what Ezekiel-
Seth: He's coming to tear down the corrupt-
David: Yeah, he dug to the center of it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what he found. And so Jesus, as the new Ezekiel, has the same issue-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with Israel as Ezekiel did in his day.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and he is- he's like, "Fine, I'll be the faithful-"
Seth: I'll be the faithful-
David: "... priest." [chuckles]
Seth: ... faithful priest-
David: Faithful
Seth: ... the faithful ruler of Israel.
David: Ruler.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, then the new stuff you just said, uh, I hear writing on foreheads.
Seth: Yep.
David: I think about the mark of the beast in Revelation.
Seth: Yep, yep.
David: I hear swords against idolaters.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think of Mount Sinai and the, and the calling of the Levites to destroy-
Seth: Yep
David: ... the golden calf people.
Seth: Yep. Yeah.
David: What's going on here?
Seth: I mean, I think those are all the right connections.
David: Okay.
Seth: So whenever the tribe of Levi was first, like, chosen to be the priests in the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... a very similar scene happened.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? There was a moment where people were worshiping a golden calf.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then God ch- made a division somehow between the people who were worshiping the golden calf and those who were continuing to be faithful to Yahweh, and the Levites were those who went and killed those who were not truly worshiping God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and instead were worshiping the cow. And so in this moment right here, there's a repeat of the, the Levitical story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the, the Levitical origin story, with this uh, this priest-type figure who's dressed in linen-
David: Linen
Seth: ... with a writing quill in his hand-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who's marking the true people of God.
David: Right.
Seth: So you're, you're totally right. That, that's... It's a picture of God cleansing his people of idolaters.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's, that's what we- that's what we're reading.
David: And who are these six swordsmen?
Seth: I think it- they're supposed to be Babylon.
David: Okay, I wonder.
Seth: I, I think it's supposed to be Babylon, yeah.
David: They're his new instrument in his hand-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his new chosen people that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's going to use to clean house.
Seth: Which is fascinating to think about. The priesthood is so corrupt, that they, the new Levites, are Babylonians.
David: That's crazy. [chuckles] Yeah.
Seth: Like, the new, the the new, the new heroes of the story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are the enemies of God's people.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Another way to show the horror of the, their sin-
Seth: That's right
David: ... the depth of it.
Seth: That's right. That's exactly right.
David: And then, what about the marking on the heads? Is Revelation pulling on this story, and what does that mean for our interpretation of it?
Seth: Man, I... So I'd say, I, I like to call this the mark of the priest. [laughing]
David: [laughing] That's very good.
Seth: The mark of the-
David: The mark of the beast, the mark of the priest.
Seth: Yeah, the mark of the priest. And so- [chuckles]
David: ... [chuckles] I like that too much.
Seth: It's, isn't it, isn't it great? Uh, the mark of the priest, it seals or marks the true people of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so this isn't the first time something is written on foreheads in the Bible. In the Levitical codes, every priest is supposed to have a name- the name of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... written on their forehead.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so having something written on your forehead-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is, has been since Sinai, a symbol of being a part of the true worshipers and the priestly class of God's people.
David: Ah.
Seth: And so in this moment, like, it's like he's marking out the true people of God, and that gets carried over in the new- in Revelation, where God marks His own people, but then the beast-
David: Has his own mark.
Seth: Has his own mark, and so he starts actively marking people who choose him over God.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? Um, so yes.
David: Okay. Fascinating. [gentle music] All right, what's next?
Seth: Yes, [chuckles] yes. Well, what happens next is the glory of God leaves.
David: Okay. The-
Seth: So, like, this is... The, that man in linen, actually we see another vision of that throne chariot, and we get a lot of the same details-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a lot of the same... It's like, it's an extended description of the throne chariot again. But that man in linen, that priestly man with the writing utensil-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... goes underneath the firmament, among the four beasts-
David: Okay
Seth: ... among the wind and the spirit. And underneath there, there's a giant censer of coals, like a giant thing of coals, and he goes in there, and he picks up the coals, and he scatters them over Jerusalem, burning Jerusalem, and then the glory of God leaves-
David: Whoa
Seth: ... presumably to meet Ezekiel in Babylon. [chuckles]
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: [chuckles] So the ending of, the ending of the vision is after Ezekiel tours the abominations happening among God's people, there is this final climactic act of judgment, where the Bab- these six men-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kill those who are committing idolatry, and then the man in l- linen clothes burns the city down.
David: Whoa.
Seth: And then God's glory leaves.
David: Who's this man in linen, and w- why does he have the right to go up on the chariot though?
Seth: He is never truly identified.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, so, you know, there's obviously theories abound. [chuckles]
David: [chuckles]
Seth: But I think it... I think there's a sense in which it's just, it's God Himself-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which makes me think it's also a picture of Jesus.
David: It's a Christocentric, or Chri- Christophany.
Seth: A Christophany.
David: That's what they call it.
Seth: A God- like Jesus is marking out His own-
David: Yes
Seth: ... saving His own and also burning to, to the ground a temple committed to idolatry and corruption.
David: Oh, He did that again.
Seth: He did that again, right.
David: Right, right. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles] Right. Uh-
David: So this is, this is Ezekiel's version of the cleansing of the temple, is what you're saying?
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: Ah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Very interesting.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Wow, what do I do with that?
Seth: What do we do with that, David? [chuckles]
David: I don't know. [chuckles]
Seth: Um, well, let's just- let's stay in this vein of thought for a second.
David: Okay.
Seth: Remember, Ezekiel is trying to convince Israel of the horror of their sin-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he's trying to paint it in as stark of terms as possible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's, like, said, like, "What you're doing," uh, he's showing, "I'm crawling through the walls. I'm seeing how every level of Jewish religious society and society itself is committed to idolatry.
David: Mm.
Seth: I'm giving you a picture of the destruction of Jerusalem beforehand. I'm showing you all this to, ha- to show you how terrible your sin is."
David: Mm.
Seth: "It's not just you're making political deals and hedging your bets."
David: Right.
Seth: "That's a really prosaic way of saying that you are worshiping
Seth: spiders."
David: Yeah.
Seth: [chuckles] Right? Right, like-
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so he's like... He's in this mode of trying to provoke shock and awe-
David: Yes
Seth: ... among the exiles.
David: Right-
Seth: Be-
David: ... 'cause they've been doing this for a long time.
Seth: A long time.
David: It has become super commonplace.
Seth: This is, this is the way they've always-
David: Right
Seth: ... dealt with God and other gods-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and other nations. And so Ezekiel is in this mode of trying to shock them, to show them what this deserves.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I say that to say, like, Ezekiel gets far more graphic as the prophecies go on.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I just kinda wanna keep going-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in showing you, like, what he's trying to do here. Um, and this kinda gets into maybe the, the... one of the first times I might have to give a family-friendly warning on the podcast.
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: Uh, because
Seth: m- almost every scholar will talk about the pornographic description of Israel's evil and its idolatry. So Ezekiel, in chapter 16, wants to evoke the sense of disgust at Israel's sin, and so what he does is he gives this allegory of this young girl, uh, who has been cast aside by her mother. She's still attached to the placenta, laying on the ground.
David: Oh, gosh.
Seth: And God finds her-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and raises her up, and clothes her, and puts on beautiful jewelry to her, and then eventually marries her because He loves this, this young woman.
David: Okay.
Seth: But in response to this marriage, Jerusalem, in chapter 16, verse 15-
David: Oh, so the, the, the girl that he found-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is Jerusalem.
Seth: Is Jerusalem, God's people, Israel. Yes.
David: Raised her up, cared for her, married her.
Seth: Yeah, and then what happens is Jerusalem begins to trust in her beauty, in chapter 16, verse 15, and plays the whore-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and pours out her harlotries on every passerby-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... who might be willing. And then if you skip down to verse 25, it says, "You built for yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passerby to multiply your harlotry." In verse 36 and 37, he says, "Jerusalem played the harlot with Egypt, Philistia, Assyria, and, and Bal- Babylon." And the Lord, in response, to ga- threatens to gather all of her lovers-... with whom you took pleasure, and expose your nakedness to, to them, that they may see your nakedness." So, what Ezekiel's doing in these chapters is he is casting
Seth: Israel's idolatry as a breaking of a marriage, which a lot of prophets have done.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Hosea does this, Jeremiah does this. But he is zooming in pretty explicitly on, like, the sexual infidelity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that God see- like, our, our closest parallel to God's disgust of Israel's behavior would be our disgust at a wife do- like, continuing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to have sex with other men, while claiming to still be married to us.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so he's describing it in as stark terms-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as he can. Um, and the most intense probably comes in chapter 23 in verses 11 to 21. So if you're listening with family, consider muting for a second. So Ezekiel describes, uh, begins to describe the whoring of two sisters. One's called Oholah, which is Samaria, so the northern tribes of Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then the other one's called Oholibah, which is in Jerusalem, the southern tribes of Israel, and he says this: "Samaria was the first to become a prostitute, but Jerusalem followed the same path, and in fact, was worse than her sister. She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and officials, the ones near magnificently dressed horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men. And she saw men portrayed on the walls, images of the Babylonians portrayed with vermilion, girded with belts on their loins, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them looking like officers, like the Babylonians in Babylon, the land of their birth. And when she saw them, she lusted after them, and she uncovered her prostitution and uncovered her nakedness. And then I became disgusted with her, as I had become disgusted with her sister. But she multiplied her harlotries, remembering the days of the youth when she played the harlot in the land of Egypt, and she lusted after her paramours, whose things, whose members-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is like the members of donkeys, and whose emissions are like that of horses. Thus, you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your breasts because of the breasts of your youth." [chuckles] And so this is Ezekiel's pornographic description-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Israel's political and idolatrous bargaining-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that they're doing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, I mean, it's pretty... It's provocative, it's-
David: Yep
Seth: ... disturbing, um, but it's also adding to- it's trying to convince people who are looking at their circumstances in purely political or social terms, as horrifically sinful.
David: Right.
Seth: So I don't know what you're hearing there or thinking there-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but I thought it was important we read through that to see, like, E- Ezekiel's unique contribution-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the prophetic canon, and u- his unique care that he's taking to make sin horrifying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: To make idolatry horrifying.
David: Uh, explain, I think, to me, this would be helpful, if you can explain why
David: Israel's idolatry and injustice is so horrific-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that it deserves this kind of treatment? Otherwise, I think Ezekiel would be guilty of editorializing or overstating.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um-
Seth: Mm
David: ... what gives him the right to actually... Like, maybe he's even still understating things-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's, it's actually so bad. What makes idolatry and the injustice that he's seeing so bad that it's like this?
Seth: I th- it's, I think it's in relationship to how God has treated Israel from the beginning.
David: Mm.
Seth: So in chapter 16, he's like, "I s- you were this infant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... cast off in the wilderness, wallowing in its own blood, still connected to the placenta. And I carried you up. I chose Abraham. I protected him. I gave you freedom. I gave you a land temporarily in Egypt, and when they enslaved you, I rescued you from Egypt.
David: Mm.
Seth: I gave you laws. I protected you in the wilderness. I fed you with manna-
David: Right
Seth: ... I fed you with quail. I gave you water. I gave you land.
David: Mm.
Seth: I gave you a king. Do you remember Solomon and how he was dressed?" And if you read through this again, you'll just notice, like, he's describing Jerusalem, the bride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in very similar terms as he describes Solomon and all his opulence.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, "I made you the jewel of the, the Mediterranean. Weren't kings from all over flocking to you-
David: Right
Seth: ... based on my care and my provision for you? And then what did you do?" Solomon had 3,000 wives.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And from that mo- and then really, that's actually started way back in the desert when you first did it with the cow.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then, and so I think th- what gives him license to do this is that, one, it's supposed to be a contrast with how God has cared for her.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, "I've cared for you like a loving husband, and made you the most beautiful woman in the entire world. And then you started spreading your legs to everybody else and paying them for the privilege."
David: Mm.
Seth: "You started giving away all the wealth that I gave you, that, that I filled Solomon's coffers with, to buy additional protection, whenever you ever needed additional protection."
David: [chuckles] Right.
Seth: "Uh, like, what other political hedging did you need-
David: Right
Seth: ... besides my provision?"
David: You have Yahweh.
Seth: "You have me"-
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: ... "your God, your husband."
David: Mm.
Seth: So I think that's what gives him the right-
David: Right
Seth: ... to use this language.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then even just considering Israel's own history, where sexual sin and sexual, like, the sexual nature of their idolatry, became forefront pretty quickly.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like there's implications of that with the golden calf.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then in Solomon particular, the height- the, the, the most beautiful Israel's ever been, is also poisoned with the fact that he's married-... thousands of people-
David: Mm.
Seth: -in political alliances, and starts importing gods from other, other places.
David: Yes.
Seth: Does that answer your question?
David: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I just-
Seth: Um
David: ... I just feel like we needed to hear it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from not a metaphorical side-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but the historical side, to be like, what was really going on that warrants this kind of graphic-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... language? So thank you for doing that. Um, yeah, so just to land the plane here, what, what Ezekiel's trying to do, and you've said it a number of times here, is to expose the horror of Israel's sin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it, uh, because they've, they've become so used to it-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's become commonplace. They don't think twice about it.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, and-
Seth: And ever since Solomon, they've been doing it.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just part of their culture to have idols around-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to make, uh, political alliances that break covenant with God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to syncretistically weave God in with other false gods. It's just, that's the way things are done, and Ezekiel's shocking them awake-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with these images. Okay. Uh, what else?
Seth: I, I think, I think the question is, like, why is the language so intense?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think that we've answered one.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's, it's to shock you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's to, to shock you out of apathy, it's to shock you out of complacency with what Israel's considering status quo. But I also kind of think it fits the covenant era-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that they're in.
David: Yes.
Seth: This is the end of the most advanced version of the Kingdom of God so far.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, God has given them kings, he's given them lands-
David: Right
Seth: ... and all of that's slipping away from them. What else could there be? Like, this is where... Ezekiel's living during a time where the world, as Ezekiel and Israel knows it, and their relationship with God as they know it, is totally unraveling.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're not... Like, they're in Babylon. God's temple is burned to the ground. The way that they've related to God since Joshua-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the way that they've hoped-
David: Right
Seth: ... their relationship with God would work, since Moses, is not working.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's not going to be the basis of their relationship anymore. No land-
David: Right
Seth: ... no temple, no tabernacle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Nothing.
David: Right.
Seth: It's... So I think part of the, the, the craziness of the imagery is to represent the unprecedented nature of the covenant era that they're in.
David: Mm.
Seth: Everything related to the promises God have made so far is falling down. [chuckles]
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, okay, right? [chuckles]
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause, yeah, either God is a liar, and he's not keeping his covenant-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and everything's gone, and I guess we need to find a new god, because his plan has gone kaput.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or, maybe we've done something so atrocious that we actually did trigger all those curses in the law.
Seth: Yeah.
David: No, that can't be right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We, we, we, we, we were just doing the thing everybody does.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Ezekiel comes in and says, "No, you do deserve-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the curses in the law. That's where we're at in the covenant of history."
Seth: Yes.
David: "And you're facing it right now."
Seth: That's right. And this goes back to what we've talked about every, like, on... In every episode so far.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, one of the most common phrases used by Ezekiel, and uniquely by Ezekiel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the biblical canon, with the frequency that he does, is, "So that you would know that I am Yahweh. So that you would know that I am the covenant Lord."
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, Israel is doubting God as the covenant Lord, base- ba- based on the Babylonian exile-
David: Right
Seth: ... based on what's happening.
David: He's breaking all his promises to us.
Seth: He's breaking all his promises to us. Or they doubt that he'll ever judge them, because he's only gonna give them the good things, right?
David: Right. Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so Ezekiel's trying to prove that God will be faithful to his covenant in judgment-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and it is faithfulness to his covenant to judge you for your evil, to end the kingdom, to remove you from the land-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to burn the temple down. This is faithfulness to the covenant.
David: Yep, the covenant said all those things would happen.
Seth: All those things would happen, and it just fits. If you're his bride, and that's the way that you acted-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what would you expect?
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, this is what happens in a divorce.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then as we've said before, it's like, if Israel can't believe that God is being faithful to his covenant and judgment, that means they'll never believe that he'd be faithful again to restore the promises that he wants to give them.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so you need the first one. You need to believe that God is faithful in judgment, if you're going to believe the promises of restoration.
David: Yeah, so when Jesus comes on the scene-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he claims to be the new husband-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the harlot wife, and he's the new Ezekiel, and now that I'm just seeing Ezekiel-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... woven so much into the Jesus story, like you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you talked through last episode. So if you missed that, go back and listen to it, but, or, or stay with us and trust that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jesus was proven as the new Ezekiel [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... very clearly. What, what's happening here? Like, why... Uh, it just adds a new layer of meaning-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to the husband thing, that Jesus, the new husband, was always just this very beautiful language, and it's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's the husband who loves his bride-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... and he marries her, he makes her pure and holy, and it was always just, like, good, shiny things to me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, now I see this vision of God as this heartbroken, cheated-on-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... God, uh, and yet he comes back, [chuckles] Jesus.
Seth: Right.
David: That is the most unexpected twist to the story.
Seth: Yeah, we kept saying, like, the darkness with which Ezekiel paints Israel, it, it doesn't feel like you can come back from that.
David: No.
Seth: Uh, well, we get-
David: What kind of marriage that went through that- [chuckles]
Seth: Right
David: ... comes back to a healthy place?
Seth: Right. Uh, even within Ezekiel, when he starts talking about restoration and new lands, you're like, "I don't understand how you can make this turn so quickly."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, yeah, it's scandalous-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way that Jesus, the groom, comes back to his bride.
David: That's amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think that is, the... And you said it in the very first episode, that the major theme, the, your thesis statement for the Book of Ezekiel, was something like, uh, "The horrors-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of sin cannot stop new creation."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like the-... ah, the adultery and idolatry and the horrificness of what we've done to God-
Seth: Mm.
David: -and cheating on him cannot stop the husband from coming to claim-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the bride that he really still does love.
Seth: Yes, that he has covenanted him- so his marriage covenant, that does not end.
David: [exhales]
Seth: That is not gonna end.
David: It's like, what-
Seth: It-
David: How can God be that faithful?
Seth: Right. And how can God overlook such presumption?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, 'cause the presumption is, like, we're- we'll always be God's people, we'll always have the land, we'll always have the temple-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we'll always be there.
David: And he's like, "You won't, but you will."
Seth: You will.
David: And it's like-
Seth: It's like-
David: ... yeah, man. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] He gives them exactly what they're presumptuous about-
David: Oh
Seth: ... only after judgment.
David: Yeah, and I mean, and we can see it really clearly in the story of Jesus at the end of his life, when he, uh, is talking about what he's about to go do. He's gonna go lay down his life for his, for his bride-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his loved ones. And Peter's like, "Oh, man, me too! You know, I'll do whatever. I'll follow you to the end. I'll lay down my life."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Jesus is like, "Will you? Before the night even ends, before the rooster crows three times, you're gonna deny me, you're gonna leave me. You're gonna be just like Israel was in Ezekiel's day. You're gonna sell yourself out through lies and deceit-
Seth: Mm
David: ... just to try to escape judgment."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet, right after he says that, he's like, "Oh, by the way, Peter, you know, the guy who's denying me, the new harlot-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm going to prepare a place for you, a, a, just a mansion-
Seth: Mm
David: ... with lots of rooms. And I love you so stinking much." [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: And it's like- [laughing]
Seth: Right
David: ... it just gets shoved together-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... in such a whiplash-y ordering.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, what kind of God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... loves like this?
Seth: And that probably brings us to another... Like, something we haven't talked about yet. It's like, part of Ezekiel's message is to convince them of the horror of their sin.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But it's also to convince them of how scandalous grace is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you don't get a picture of grace without going really dark first.
David: Really dark.
Seth: And Ezekiel does that pretty-
David: Mm
Seth: ... pretty powerfully.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And holds those two things right next to each other, and, and obviously, so does Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: So does Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The thing that I keep thinking about in this particular passage, and the thing that felt, like, devotionally rich for me, was this idea that, like, judgment is love.
David: Mm.
Seth: Judgment is an expression of covenant faithfulness.
David: I get-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that judgment is an expression of covenant faithfulness.
Seth: Yes.
David: He said he would curse evil-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and he's faithful to his covenant when he does that.
Seth: Yes.
David: How is it an expression of love?
Seth: Well, because judgment is healing.
David: Mm.
Seth: Judgment isn't casting away.
David: Mm.
Seth: Judgment isn't getting rid of. Judgment is purifying. Like-
David: Right, I do this, we do this to our kids.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right. They're doing something harmful, or like, so, my, my-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my youngest, Eli, he is... My firstborn was like, you say, "Don't do that!" And he just, "Oh, okay, Dad." Eli just breaks down in tears.
Seth: Yeah.
David: A- [laughing] and it's, it's just like, "Eli, no!" And he just starts crying.
Seth: [laughing]
David: And so it's like, he, he's about to run into the street-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know?
Seth: Yes.
David: And just a car is barreling down the street.
Seth: "You can't do that. Don't do that!"
David: "Stop!" And he stops on the grass right before going to the road, he's crying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it's hard, he thinks I'm mad at him. I'm not, but I was just trying to protect him and-
Seth: Yeah, right
David: ... heal him-
Seth: Right
David: ... from his stupidity of running into the street. [laughing]
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, yeah, judgment is healing.
Seth: Judgment is healing.
David: Okay.
Seth: And, like, there's a couple moments throughout Ezekiel where he's like, "God, what are you gonna do with your remnant?"
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's like, "I will protect them. I will do amazing things for them," and we'll get to the like, "I'll give you a new king, I'll give you a new land, I'll give you a new temple." But-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah, I think, I think that's it. Like, judgment is healing, and, like, we should... I- it's, it's been challenging for me to think, too. It's like, I feel like something, judgment, that isn't that Jesus experienced so that I could get love?
David: Oh. Oh, yes. Okay.
Seth: But not judgment in itself as an expression of healing and love.
David: Sure. Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Well, I mean, it's like, okay, so if the best thing in the world is to be in a relationship with God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I have shoved a bunch of wrong things into that relationship, where it's like, oh, I could trust God alone and live a really amazing life, full of joy and trust and love. Instead, I also trust this god, and I trust this thing, and I throw myself after this, and instead of living in alignment with God and His world through justice and love-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for my neighbor, I've, I'm just selfish, and I do these other things. As God takes those things away, destroys those idols through acts of judgment-
Seth: Yes
David: ... He's actually opening up the way of life that will be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the most healing.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's... Yeah, He's loving me by taking away things that are hurting me.
Seth: Right.
David: He's, he's, He's ripping cancer out of my body.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what He's doing to Israel, He's ripping the cancer out.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right, and seeing that as an act of love. The phrase covenant faithfulness is the word hesed-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is just another word that the Old Testament translates as love.
David: Yeah-
Seth: And it's like-
David: Such steadfast love
Seth: ... steadfast love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, this is what it means for God to be God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to do both sides of these things. And I think just even cultivating an imagination where judgment isn't something that secures love or secures relationship-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but is, like, part of the relationship of love in and of itself.
David: It's the thing I have to go through-
Seth: Right
David: ... in order to get to the love part.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it is love from front to back.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Mm, that's good. Okay, speaking of love, and the, the, the other side of love, not just judgment, but salvation-
Seth: Yes
David: ... next episode?
Seth: Next episode, we get to go into the back part of, uh, Ezekiel, where he talks about all the good stuff that happens in the-
David: New temple?
Seth: New temple, new king, new land, new creation, a river of life flowing and people fishing out of it.
David: Let's go.
Seth: It's been-
David: And a bunch of new crazy visions?
Seth: It is, um, a little bit, a little bit, couple more visions. [laughing]
David: All right, awesome. Well, and that'll be the last episode?
Seth: And that'll be the la- last, possibly. Maybe, unless we go really long on the temple.
David: Okay. [laughing] Awesome.
Seth: There's a lot more math. [laughing]
David: Oh, no. Oh, boy. Well, thank you all so much for joining us on this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast. We hope you'll join us for our final episode in Ezekiel. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
