Seth: [upbeat music]
David: It's such good news that God has been promising and pointing to a savior that would save us through faith alone-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from the beginning.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, that is really good news.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's always been the good news.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting the book of Galatians today-
Seth: Right
David: ... which I'm very excited about.
Seth: I am, too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I am, too.
David: It's a beast of a book even though it's small. There's a lot going on.
Seth: Man, I don't know if I've studied more for an episode of this podcast-
David: Get ready, everybody
Seth: ... than [laughs] for-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... for the book of Galatians, and yet still feel like I'm only, like, scratching the surface.
David: Yeah. And why, why is that? What's going on in Galatians that has you-
Seth: [sighs]
David: ... in such a tizzy, Seth?
Seth: Oh. So, I mean, depending on how in tune with the theological debates [laughs] people might be, it's like the issue at hand is, like, how does the Old Testament and the New Testament interact with each other?
David: Well, that's a big question. Yep.
Seth: What does the Old Testament laws mean for a Christian today?
David: Mm.
Seth: Should we follow them, or should we not? And if we don't follow them, does that mean we're just abandoning what God said was good and right a couple thousand years ago? Does that imply God changes? And then add on top of that the fact that nobody seems to agree what Paul is saying in the book of Galatians adds to that layer of complexity. And also, who is he speaking against, and what's the hier-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, everything is debated, and everything's debated on a topic that holds a whole bunch of weight for a Christian, which is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what do we do with the Old Testament now that Jesus has come?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like-
David: There you go.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Welcome to Seth's mind, everyone.
Seth: [laughs] That's exactly right. [laughs]
David: But I like, I like that last thing you said-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is what do Christians do with the Old Testament now that Jesus has come?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's a good question.
Seth: That's... Yes.
David: And is that on the line in Galatians, you feel like?
Seth: Yes-
David: Okay
Seth: ... most certainly.
David: So why? What's going on in Galatians that has put that on the line for us?
Seth: What's funny is that Paul, being Paul, writing a letter, we only get half the conversation-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... obviously. And so what's happening is that Paul's writing a letter to a group of believers in a place called Galatia, which is a province in Asia Minor.
David: Galatia?
Seth: Galatia.
David: [laughs] Galatia.
Seth: Gala- Galatia, Galatia.
David: It's a pronunciation joke-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... for those who like to laugh at those. [laughs]
Seth: I like them.
David: You like them. [laughs]
Seth: There are a group of teachers who have come into this church and, as Paul says, preaching a different gospel. And so this letter does a couple things.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: One, it proves the truth of his gospel, and two, he spends a ton of his letter just proving that his gospel hasn't been modified by public opinion. So apparently, these false teachers are coming in preaching a different gospel and saying, "The only reason Paul's preaching to you what he's preaching is because he's, uh, scared of offending you, and so he's giving you a soft-shoed version-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of biblical truth. And so we're giving you the real thing. Paul's giving you the softened thing."
David: I see.
Seth: The letter of Galatian comes in, and Paul says, "No, I've been preaching the same thing since day one."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "And two, you're wrong for all these reasons."
David: Okay. So if that's what's happening, what was the gospel that Paul had been preaching faithfully all along?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what was this more rigorous biblical version that his opponents were teaching?
Seth: That's, that's right. So that's-
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's the big que-
David: Is that the million-dollar question? [laughs]
Seth: ... that's the big question of Galatians is like-
David: Nailed it
Seth: ... and, like, and not, not a ton of people agree precisely on the contours-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of all this.
David: Sure, but talk big picture.
Seth: Talk big picture.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, one way to talk about the gospel is the way that Paul does in chapter one verse four.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from this present evil age."
David: Hmm.
Seth: That's the gospel.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: And he says it right at the outset that Jesus Christ has died for our sins in order to take us from an old age and bring us into a new age.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So that's one way to talk about the gospel according to Paul.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, but, um, the more broader picture of what's happening in these letters is that we become a member of God's family and become part of God's kingdom not through certain actions taken by the Jewish people like circumcision-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or keeping kosher or observing the Sabbath, but by trusting Jesus alone.
David: Hmm.
Seth: The way that we're identified as part of God's kingdom and God's age is by our trust in Jesus, not by certain ethnic markers of Jewish identity. And that is also his gospel, is that trust in Jesus is the only thing we need in order to be saved from our sins, in order to be-
David: I see
Seth: ... a member of God's kingdom-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to be a part of God's covenant family.
David: So Paul, in, in the side of the conversation that we can hear in Galatians-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's, he's saying that faith in Jesus alone is what saves you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, uh, is this the letter where he says, like, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, or is it-
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: It is this letter. Okay.
Seth: Well, and this goes back to, like, well, what do you mean by save?
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: So because that's kinda the central issue in the book of Galatia.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: It's like... Well, it, it's central to how we understand-What the problem is in Galatia. So it's kinda hard to know even where to start. Do we start with Paul's declaration of the gospel or the problem according to these Galatian heretics?
David: Right.
Seth: Because what's at issue in Galatia? Is it a different understanding of how we are saved-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how we are made right with God, how we become part of the heavenly kingdom, or is it about how we best respond to the fact that God has made us part of his kingdom?
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: And-
David: Is it... Yeah. Is it, is it, is it the m- mechanics of how we go about entering God's family?
Seth: That's right.
David: Or is it, what do we look like once we become part of God's family?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: I see. Okay.
Seth: And so people disagree about that very basic thing.
David: I see.
Seth: Maybe it's now the best time to say, like, "Here are the options."
David: Maybe. I think we can, like, put that down-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for a second and go, I'm still wanting to understand.
Seth: Yes.
David: I, I think I have a little bit of a picture, without getting into the details, of what Paul was saying.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's saying faith in Jesus alone saves, not obedience to the Old Testament law.
Seth: Yep.
David: Which obviously I can immediately hear a thousand problems with saying it that way-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is probably what the people-
Seth: Right
David: ... in Galatia were struggling with.
Seth: Right. Yes. Right.
David: So I, I think I understand where Paul's coming from. He's always been teaching that faith in Jesus alone, not being circumcised, is-
Seth: Is what brings you into the, like, the kingdom
David: ... what either brings you into God's family or is the best representative of what it looks like being in God's family-
Seth: That's right
David: ... however you come down on that. So what were the other opponents saying? Like, what was their gospel?
Seth: Yes.
David: Because I'm asking this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because at the opening of his letter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Paul seems real mad.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He seems real, real mad and, and
Seth: "I am astonished-
David: ... uses
Seth: ... that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He calls them agitators. He calls them, uh... At one point, he tells the people teaching in Galatia to go ahead and emasculate themselves, like castrate themselves-
David: Right
Seth: ... because they're demanding circumcision. Paul gets mad-
David: Right
Seth: ... in Galatians. Yes.
David: Yeah, and he's like, "And I don't even care if an angel came down from heaven and preached you a gospel. If it's not what I've told you all along-
Seth: Let-
David: ... it's not right."
Seth: Let them be accursed.
David: Yeah. Let them be accursed.
Seth: Accursed. Anathema.
David: A lot's on the line for Paul here, so, like, they had to have been saying something that was not good.
Seth: That's right.
David: It, it couldn't have been like, "Oh, it's just a little left of center." It's like, why is he so upset? What were they saying?
Seth: Well, let me just give you the options.
David: Okay.
Seth: One option is that they are functionally teaching some sort of, like, works righteousness.
David: Okay.
Seth: These Galatian heretics, these cursed Galatians, are coming in, and they're saying the way that you enter into God's family and the way that you know you are a member of God's family is by doing certain actions.
David: Okay.
Seth: Once you get circumcised, once you change your diet, once you consistently practice the Sabbath-
David: Right
Seth: ... this is what makes God approve of you, and this is what makes you an approved of member of God's kingdom.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is what it means to be accepted by God.
David: Okay. That's one side.
Seth: So, yeah.
David: What's, what's the other version of what they might be saying?
Seth: The other version of what they, they might be saying is... And the reason why this argument exists is, like, if that is what, a form of legalism-
David: Right
Seth: ... these people are tau- teaching... And uh, oftentimes these heretics are called Judaizers 'cause they want people to accept Jewish marks of identity, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Judaizers. Is that the reason why people object to this understanding of the book is in part because that's just not the way Judaism works. That's not what the Old Testament teaches-
David: Right
Seth: ... is that you are saved by-
David: By your works
Seth: ... what you do-
David: Right
Seth: ... even if it is Jewish markers of identity.
David: Right.
Seth: Throughout the whole Testament, the Bible's pretty consistent that you are saved by God's grace alone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He saved Israel from Pharaoh before a law-
David: They even had a law
Seth: ... before they had a law.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God saves by grace, and the Jewish markers of identity given at Mount Sinai are proclamations of faith.
David: Right.
Seth: They are identity markers for God's people. They're proof that you believe that God is the one who saves and the one who has made you his people. They're what people who have been saved do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But they don't make you members of God's family.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, that's a more coherent understanding of what Judaism teaches-
David: Yes
Seth: ... especially in the Old Testament.
David: Right.
Seth: So what does that mean the law is?
David: Mm.
Seth: What does that mean the kosher commands and circumcision is all for, then?
David: Yeah.
Seth: If it doesn't make you a member of God's family, what do they do? Well, what those laws were always meant to do is they were meant to show people who are members of God's family how to behave and marked them as different-
David: Right
Seth: ... from the rest of the world. This was how you knew who was a member of God's covenant community and who wasn't.
David: Right.
Seth: These people don't have two different kinds of fabric. These people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... only eat not pork.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: These people don't work on Saturday.
Seth: And this is, dis- makes them distinct and unique from the rest of the world.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is how God wants a distinct and unique people to behave. So yes, Jesus has come. He's the Messiah the Old Testament has been, uh, waiting for.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But now that the Messiah's come, how do we remain distinct from the world?
David: Right.
Seth: We do what we've always done.
David: Why would you abandon-
Seth: Why would you abandon-
David: ... all these things we've always done?
Seth: They do the same thing they've always done.
David: Right. So, like-
Seth: Their mark is distinct from the world
David: ... so, so what you're, what you're saying is, like, these Galatian anathema-ed.
Seth: Yes
David: ... they're making this argument, which is pretty cohesive.
Seth: Yeah, I think so.
David: And they're s- so they're saying like, "Yeah, we believe in Jesus too.
Seth: Mm.
David: He's the promised Messiah that the whole Bible's been pointing to, but that doesn't mean-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that we can just stop telling converts to not be circumcised or-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that we can just eat whatever we want now, that we-
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is how God's people are supposed to look. God himself said so.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So why would-
David: Just because the Messiah came doesn't mean all those laws changed.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: Even Jesus himself said, "I've not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law."
Seth: Yeah, and I mean, to keep giving this idea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as much weight as you can, there's a whole bunch of verses in scripture that seem to indicate that Gentiles, non-Jews, will be invited into God's covenant community, and they too will be expected in the age to come to continue some Jewish rituals.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 56, I believe, we're told that Gentiles will come in and offer sacrifices. Zechariah 14, Gentiles will come into this new kingdom, and they will celebrate the Feast of Booths. Isaiah again says that eunuchs in the next age-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... will be expected to celebrate the Sabbath.
David: Right.
Seth: The Old Testament seems to anticipate the-
David: Yeah, it's like, okay, all the G- all the Gentiles are coming in now-
Seth: Right
David: ... because of Jesus, and let's keep fulfilling it. You guys need to follow the laws that the prophet said you would.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what Paul's responding to is that idea-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that now that Jesus has come, we still must separate ourselves from the Gentile world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... with Jewish markers of identity.
David: How else will people know that we've gone from an old age to a new age?
Seth: Yeah.
David: How do we know that we've left the world behind-
Seth: Right
David: ... and we've entered into a new godly family?
Seth: You can probably tell by [laughs] like, our audience can probably tell by all the time we're spending on this, this feels particularly compelling to us because I think it gives as much credit as I can to an idea.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The idea that we are saved by our works is so alien to a Jewish mind-
David: Right
Seth: ... that this feels like it makes sense of the Bible as I understand it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and as Jews have understanded it for hundreds and hundreds of years.
David: Right.
Seth: So I have a lot of in- invested in this idea, but I'm also severely not convinced in many areas [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and find myself going back and forth. I think that is generally what is on the line in the book of Galatians. And what's happening then, just to name the consequences of this idea, is this group of teachers have come in and they have started convincing people they need to be circumcised, that they can't eat with Gentiles, that they can only eat kosher, and their church, in some ways, is dividing into two groups again.
David: Mm.
Seth: You have a more Jewish-oriented church and a less Jewish-oriented church, and the one church that God has meant to come together in Jesus Christ is now looking a whole lot like the world before-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: And Paul's coming in and says, "This is anathema to the gospel."
David: Mm.
Seth: He's saying, "You're supposed to walk towards the gospel in which Jew and Gentile are brought together."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "But by inserting these nationalistic or ethnic boundary markers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you're ripping apart what Christ has done."
David: I see.
Seth: The reason why you shouldn't be eating kosher or demanding that other people eat kosher or demanding that other people keep the Sabbath is because you're reinstating things that were meant to divide in an era that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where God has brought together.
David: Yeah. I think that argument, uh, would pro- could probably fall apart pretty quickly if I was on the other side because I would just say like, "No, we're trying to be unified in how we eat, in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what we look like, in our-
Seth: Right
David: ... practices. They're the ones who are separating themselves-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from us and causing division by not accepting these markers."
Seth: Yes.
David: "This is how we've always looked the same, been unified-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... rallied together. So it's their fault [laughs] for-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for not doing it." So it's like I think for Paul there's probably, there's also more on the line than just like, "You guys are causing division. Cut it out."
Seth: Right.
David: For him, and I know he talks about this a lot in Galatians, he points to the fact that they are missing out on the point of the law and the point of circumcision entirely, that they've tried to make these Jewish identity markers of circumcision, Sabbath, and diet something that they are not.
Seth: Yes, that is the argument he develops throughout the book-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that, so that's the issue, and more than that, you're misunderstanding the purpose of the law-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the first place.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The law wasn't, was never meant to create members of God's family or only to divide God's family from people that were not part of God's family.
David: Right.
Seth: The law was s- always symbolic in some sort of way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It was symbolic of God's character, but it was also symbolic of the kingdom God meant to create, and it was symbolic of Jesus Christ himself.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So when Jesus Christ himself comes, things change.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They must change. Our relationship with the things that pointed to Jesus must also change. [gentle music]
David: So let's, if we can, would it be helpful for us to look at some of the core arguments that Paul makes against the Judaizers or the anathema or whatever you wanna call them?
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, the Galatian heretics.
Seth: Yep.
David: What are some of his main arguments that he makes against them?
Seth: Well, the first, like, third of the book-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is him just proving that he's never preached anything else.
David: Okay.
Seth: Which is really fascinating, I think, from [laughs] just like a polemical perspective or just that we have in our Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: I think it's fascinating that we have in our Bible a really dense piece of theology, but the first third of it is just Paul proving his receipts.
David: Mm.
Seth: Part of me wants to, like, dig in there, like, "Well, why does Paul spend so much time-
David: Right
Seth: ... proving his credentials?"
David: Yeah, why does he? Because I think earlier when we were setting up the episode, you said something about people were, uh, claiming that the gospel was being changed in order to, um, appease different audiences. And so-
Seth: That's right
David: ... based on who you're around, especially if you're around a bunch-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of Jews, you cha- change the gospel around to make sure-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that it is appeasing your audience.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so is Paul's point here simply that, "People are doing that. I'm not. Let me prove it to you"?
Seth: Yeah. They're saying the reason you're fudging on these biblical commands, God said get circumcised-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... God said eat kosher, God said don't eat on the Sabbath, the only reason you're fudging on those is because your ministry, been ministering among Gentiles-
David: Oh, I see
Seth: ... and non-Jews for so long.
David: Right. So it's like you're just trying to be appealing. If you go into a Gentile audience, and you're like, "Hey, everybody, you can be free from your sins," and they're like, "Oh, that's amazing." "Yeah, Jesus died for your sins, and he rose again." "Oh, that's amazing."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Also, time to cut off part of your body."
Seth: Right.
David: And they're like, "I'm out."
Seth: I'm out. It's like-
David: "Also, no bacon." "I'm out."
Seth: Right, right.
David: "Also, you can't work on Saturday." "I'm out."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, so they, they're, they were claiming that you have been side skirting some of these issues just to gain more converts.
Seth: I think that is part of what he... So he mentions, they say, "Am I seeking the approval of man?"
David: Mm.
Seth: In chapter one. And then-
David: Which must be something they've been accusing him of.
Seth: Must be something they're accusing him of. And then at the very end of the book of Galatians, Paul will, like, turn that knife back around and say, "You're the ones who are-"
David: Mm.
Seth: "... trying to please people. I've, uh, that's not what I've been doing." I think that's part of the critique of Paul, is that he's giving a gospel that's just more culturally palatable-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to Gentiles, to non-Jews, and that he's changed, in, in particular, he's changed his more hardcore and biblical position the longer he's spent among Gentiles.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Paul responds and says, "No, that's not true."
David: Right.
Seth: "And let me prove it to you."
David: Right.Okay, so how does he go about proving that to the people? Is that important?
Seth: Yeah, I mean, it is... I mean, it takes a, a bi-
David: [laughs]
Seth: A, a good bit of space in the book.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The first thing he says is that, "Jesus appeared to me directly and told me this."
David: Oh, well, all right.
Seth: [laughs] So-
David: Check and mate.
Seth: Right. It's like, it's a pretty big moment. He's like, "I didn't receive what I'm teaching-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... about faith alone being the way in which we are-
David: Mm
Seth: ... identified as members of God's family. I didn't receive that from anybody. I got that from, from Jesus."
David: Right.
Seth: "That's who I got it from."
David: It is an amazing apologetic, how, that he lays out here, not just that the fact that his message hasn't changed, but also a, an apologetic for Christianity in general, where it's like Paul gets a message from Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... starts preaching, and then a long time later runs into the rest of the disciples and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... they realize that they're preaching the same message.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: But he heard it straight from Jesus. They heard it from Jesus too, but incarnate.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, how did this Paul get that message if it wasn't for a risen Jesus?
Seth: That's right.
David: That's amazing.
Seth: Yes, and that's what, exactly what he does. He's like, "It wasn't, it wasn't until three years later-
David: Right
Seth: ... that I even met an apostle."
David: Right.
Seth: "And we had nothing to disagree about then."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "And then 11 years later-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I brought my ministry under formal review by a council at Jerusalem, and you know what they said then? They said nothing. They added nothing to my understanding of the gospel. They didn't demand the circumcision of my Greek ministry partner, and they saw in my ministry a parallel to what they were doing among the Jews."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "So if that's the case, I'm the one who's been... I'm pre- preaching a consistent-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... gospel this whole time, that the way that we're identified as members of God's family is not through circumcision, but through faith in Jesus alone, and all the apostles agree with me.
David: Mm.
Seth: You're, you false teachers are inserting divisions where there are none."
David: Yeah. I've been unified, you're divided.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right. And then he goes on to a long story about how he has been consistent on this issue, even when the apostles haven't been.
David: Right, 'cause Peter, he was on... I guess, he... Was Peter really ever on team no circumcision, or was he, w- uh, was he just converted onto team no circumcision? [laughs]
Seth: So I think what's happening, the basic outlines of the story is that Peter is ministering in Antioch-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and Paul meets him there, and what he notices is that Peter is not eating with Gentiles anymore-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... like he used to. He is now only eating with other Jews.
David: And he's the one who had this big experience at the household of Cornelius-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where he welcomed Gentiles-
Seth: That's right
David: ... into the family of God, and then went and defended that idea in Jerusalem to the other disciples.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So he was, like, one of the original proponents of-
Seth: So-
David: ... let's bring the Gentiles in, and now he's not eating with them.
Seth: So Peter believes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that faith in Jesus is the only thing that's needed-
David: Ah
Seth: ... to unify God's family and to, to identify as a member of God's family.
David: But he's been people-pleasing.
Seth: But he's been people-pleasing.
David: Oh, that stinks. [laughs]
Seth: A group they call from the delegation of James-
David: Oh
Seth: ... these Juda-
David: Oh, the delegation of James
Seth: ... these Judaizers. [laughs] Uh, they come in, and they find it objectionable-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that Jewish believers would eat with Gentiles who are not willing to follow the biblical commands of kosher eating.
David: Right.
Seth: And so to be, to please-
David: Right
Seth: ... this group, he separates himself from them.
David: I see.
Seth: And what's crazy, this has been happening for long enough that many other members of his church in Antioch were, were doing so, including Barnabas, Paul's protege. So Peter has effectively divided the church in Antioch into a Jewish contingent and a Gentile contingency because of this, because of fear of this particular group.
David: So is it possible that some of these Galatian heretics are kind of using Peter as their example, like their excuse-
Seth: Oh
David: ... to teach this way? They're like, "This is what Peter's doing."
Seth: This is what Pet... They might be.
David: I mean, that-
Seth: I don't know that for sure
David: ... it's, yeah, it's interesting
Seth: ... but that, there could be a sense in which they are feeling-
David: They have to have know- they have to know what's going on in order for Paul to be referencing it here.
Seth: Right.
David: And so-
Seth: They have to have some knowledge of, of this
David: ... it must be some, like, piece of ammunition in their belt.
Seth: Yeah, or they are teaching about that story, but only giving half of it-
David: Right
Seth: ... to their audience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: Interesting. But, but Paul, on the other side of it, is saying, like, "I don't mind being offensive, as long as it's true." He's like, "I'm not gonna people please."
Seth: Right.
David: "I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you the truth regardless of which audience I'm with."
Seth: Right, and so what-
David: "And that's never changed."
Seth: And w- so what Paul does is he publicly confronts Peter-
David: Oh, fr- [laughs]
Seth: ... and his own protege and everybody else there.
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: And he says, "You're actually not walking towards the truth of the gospel."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's how, the way he phrases it, which I think is a really fascinating way to say that. "You are not walking towards the truth of the gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: The gospel is that faith alone is what makes and identifies us with God's family."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And you are inserting into that pre-established unity by the gospel Jewish markers of identity."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Eating kosher."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "That is not walking towards the gospel." And so he's saying, "You need to stop that and walk towards the unity Christ has purchased-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in himself."
David: Boy.
Seth: So the idea is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... exactly right. He's like, "You... I'm the only one. Who are you gonna trust to preach the gospel? Me."
David: Right.
Seth: I-
David: A guy who flip-flops, or the guy who's been consistent?
Seth: It's like, "I've been preaching this the whole time."
David: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I'm just like, okay, you get a little sympathetic for these heretics-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because if Peter fell prey-
Seth: Right
David: ... to this pressure-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and these ideas, it's like, no wonder you had all of these other people following suit, and why even today there's so much division, even in the Christian church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... about what is our relationship to the Old Testament now that Jesus has come.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like, what has changed? And it seems like Paul is sayingEverything's changed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But Peter and these people and some today say nothing really has changed, or not everything has changed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and so, I mean, we, we probably need to address this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and either we can, I... We can think we can do that one of two ways.
Seth: Okay.
David: We can address that question of now that Jesus come, how has our relationship changed with the Old Testament law?
Seth: Yeah.
David: We can address that question one of two ways, which is let's just talk about it. [laughs]
Seth: Okay. [laughs]
David: Uh, or let's walk through Paul's arguments-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Galatians.
Seth: I mean, I think the best place to start is Paul's arguments. So one of the most famous passages in the book of Galatians is where Paul says that we are justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like one of the most famous lines-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in all book of Galatians, and it comes right after this story-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where Peter has functionally divided the church in Antioch because of his willingness to please the Jerusalem contingency, the people from the delegation from James.
David: Right.
Seth: And so this idea that God has created a new type of unity through Christ rather than through a unity through something like circumcision overrides in some sense, or is the fulfillment of and what now acts as what makes people a member of God's family. That's maybe a clumsy way to say it, but that's, that's everything that's on the line-
David: I see
Seth: ... as we come towards justification by faith.
David: Okay. Uh, maybe define the word justification there 'cause in that definition, it made, it made it sound like justification is inclusion in a family or something.
Seth: Man, so again, the... this line right here, "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ."
David: Okay.
Seth: Those three lines, justified, works of the law, through faith in Jesus Christ, are all heavily debated.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And what each one of those things mean means something different to different sides of the argument.
David: Okay.
Seth: And you can mix and match your different definitions of each one of those three things-
David: And come out with, like, 18 different versions of what this means.
Seth: It's the metaverse of, [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of, like, opti- of, like, Biblical interpretation.
David: Okay, wonderful.
Seth: So what does it mean to be justified?
David: Okay.
Seth: So Paul is confronting Peter, and he's saying, "This is wrong. This is not walking towards the gospel."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What is the gospel? The gospel is that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.
David: Mm.
Seth: Okay? In the context of the story that we've just heard-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what is he really saying? And one way to understand this is... I'll just do it all together.
David: Okay.
Seth: We are not identified as a member of God's family through something like eating kosher, which is exactly the reason you're giving for separating from this group of people-
David: Right
Seth: ... but through faith in Jesus Christ.
David: Yep.
Seth: Meaning anyone who pl- professes faith in Jesus Christ should be eating together at the same table-
David: No matter what they're eating
Seth: ... no matter what they're eating.
David: Right.
Seth: If you're going to drink the body and blood of Jesus at the end of that meal-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you can eat whatever you want before that meal.
David: Oof. Oof.
Seth: [laughs] That's like the-
David: Love it. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] That's the, that's the, that's the idea-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of what justification means.
David: Yep.
Seth: The true marker of identity of God's people is faith in Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what makes us, or that's what identifies us as members of God's family.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's clear.
Seth: It's super clear-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and makes a ton of sense considering the argument going forward.
David: Okay.
Seth: The other way to understand this is that justification never has this sense of, like, as identifying marker-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of being part of a family. The dictionary definition-
David: The semantic range
Seth: ... the semantic range of the word-
David: Right
Seth: ... justification does not include that.
David: I see. So that's a problem for that side of the argument.
Seth: That's a problem for that side of the argument.
David: Okay.
Seth: What justification means in the dictionary is being declared righteous-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... declared good, declared positively moral by God.
David: Right.
Seth: So this kinda goes back to our other way of understanding what the book of Galatians is about. These people are teaching legalism.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Peter, believing God would like him more if he ate Jewish, decided to start eating Jewish again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Paul's coming to him and saying, "No, don't you remember, uh, Peter, that we are not made more acceptable to God-
David: Right
Seth: ... by doing certain legal practices? We're not declared innocent, moral, righteous by God, but simply by faith in Jesus Christ."
David: Yeah.
Seth: The only qualification you need to be called right in God's eyes is faith in Jesus.
David: Yeah. Both sides make a ton of sense.
Seth: Both sides make a ton of sense. [laughs]
David: And I think, like, it seems like an invisible line that doesn't need to be drawn because it's like let's ask the question from something that I think everybody can agree with, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We have to believe that Jesus rose from the dead-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... in order to be a Christian, okay?
Seth: Yep.
David: All right. Do I believe in Jesus, that Jesus rose from the dead in order to become a Christian, or is that what I do now that I am a Christian?
Seth: It, it's both.
David: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Seth: And it's like-
David: So it just sounds like what you're saying is, like, i- do you have to follow the Jewish identity markers like circumcision and eating kosher in order to be accepted in God's family, or is that what you do once you're a part of God's family? It's like they're two sides-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the same coin it sounds like.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: And I, and I understand the need for emphasis on either one as we get-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into, like, good exegesis and-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and historical understanding, but it seems like there doesn't need to be as big of a divide between those two, and I think we can move forward-
Seth: I think-
David: ... with those things in our head.
Seth: Yeah. The, the big thing to take away is that there is a unity provided to God's people by faith in Jesus alone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that unity is being threatened by whatever these Galatian heretics are teaching, and Paul's saying, "You've gotta cut it out."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "The gospel of Jesus Christ has unified God's people, and what you are believing is dividing God's people."
David: Mm.
Seth: And you could talk about legalism and Jewish markers of identity kind of in the same way in this sense.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like you can divide over Jewish markers of identity. There's a Jewish-looking church and a non-Jewish-looking church.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus has done something that should abolish those distinctions and you need to stop it, or true Christians-... only wear headdresses.
David: Right.
Seth: True Christians don't wear headdresses anymore, and you've divided the church over something you believe gives you a better access to God. And Paul's saying, "Cut it out."
David: Right.
Seth: The thing that unifies God's people-
David: Is faith in Jesus
Seth: ... is faith in Jesus.
David: That's good.
Seth: That's the, the core of the argument. We can, and we can move forward from there. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we've, we've talked about Paul's defense of himself and his consistent ministry. We've talked about his synopsis of the gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that it's faith in Jesus that justifies us, not works of the law. Now he kind of does go into some arguments.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, what are those?
Seth: The first argument's really interesting. It's just an argument from experience.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he's trying to prove the truth that we are included in God's family apart from being circumcised or eating kosher, and the first thing he mentions to the Galatians is the fact that, one, they saw Jesus rise from the dead s- with their own eyes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they received that good news.
David: Mm.
Seth: And they received the Holy Spirit after that fact, all before any of them were circumcised.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they're even experiencing miracles presumably.
David: Right.
Seth: Like so, like they have had a profound experience with the risen Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and his indwelling spirit, and that was before any of them knew they were supposed to eat kosher, circumcise themselves-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or anything else. Like, the reason they should know that they are justified, made a member of God's family by faith alone is because that's all they needed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to experience the Holy Spirit already.
David: Man, that's a killer argument.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But also, can I just lean in there for, like, us and our audience?
Seth: Sure.
David: 'Cause that's very encouraging to me.
Seth: Please, please.
David: 'Cause it's just like, [laughs] that's just good news. 'Cause I think I often forget, like I remember when I came to Jesus for the first time. I was a mess.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I was an absolute mess.
Seth: You were. [laughs]
David: [laughs] You didn't even know me back then.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But I was. And, um, I just came to him in need. I had nothing to offer. Like, my life was a wreck. I, I wasn't good. I was-
Seth: Right.
David: I, my life was full of sin. Like, I wasn't sanctified.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I didn't have holy aspirations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I just came to him in need. And yet now it's so easy for me to think that I'm not right with God some days because I'm just not as holy as I know I should be or-
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, man, who were you when you first came to Jesus and he accepted you and filled you with His Holy Spirit and started guiding your life-
Seth: Right
David: ... and you saw miracles? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... was it, was that, was that because of you and things you did? No.
Seth: Yeah. It was just because God's a God of grace.
David: It was faith alone in Jesus.
Seth: It was, it was faith alone in Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. Think back to, to the way that Paul kind of summarizes the gospel, like Jesus saved us from our sins, and-
David: He brought us into-
Seth: Uh, he gave himself for our sins to deliver us from this present evil age.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, like, there's a certain helplessness and powerlessness when you talk about ages like that. It's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... I lived dur- me, myself, there was an age in which I was awful.
David: Right.
Seth: I was far from God, I was all these things. He says, uh, elsewhere, he defines this evil age as immoral, impure, sensuous, idolatrous, sorceress, full of enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. Like, this-
David: That's the age.
Seth: That's the age.
David: It'd be like, I sh- I, I lived during the Black Plague.
Seth: Yeah. Like, 'cause it's just the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this intensity, this helplessness.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's where we were saved from.
David: Right.
Seth: You didn't earn your way out of that.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? Like, you didn't-
David: Yep
Seth: ... act your way out of that. You were plucked out of it, transferred out of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Saved from it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the, the way salvation works-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the Bible. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is not by us circumcising our way out of orgies, but by like, [laughs] like-
David: Right. Yeah. And then I love what he says, too, in I think it's Galatians 3:2, where he says, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be completed by the flesh?"
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, are, are you try... Like, the Holy Spirit started this work. Are you now trying to finish it by your own-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... power?
Seth: So something really great happened when he transferred you out of that realm.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you think you can improve on the work of the Spirit-
David: Right
Seth: ... by keeping the Sabbath?
David: Yeah.
Seth: No, you were transformed by faith, and you will continue by faith. Later on in the argument, we'll get there, he's like, "The only... Circumcision is... No, uncircumcision doesn't count for anything. The only thing that counts is faith working itself out in love."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's the new definition of what it means-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be a part of God's covenant family.
David: I wanna put a pin in this for everybody listening and watching, that we are gonna get into the question of what is the Old Testament law?
Seth: Oh, gosh, yes.
David: How does it, what does it have to do with us today? We're j- we're just working through the arguments-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... that, that Paul lays out. We'll, we'll get some really firm answers on the ground, but-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I just, I don't want anybody to think we're sidescreening the issue. We're gonna get there.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah. We're just going in it at the pace that Paul does. [laughs]
David: That's right. [laughs]
Seth: So the first one is an argument from experience.
David: Okay, love that. Next.
Seth: Uh, the next argument is he says, "Well, the whole Hebrew Bible agrees with my position."
David: [laughs] Okay.
Seth: The Hebrew Bible that you're saying that we must be more attentive to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and follow the laws that it describes, well, the whole Hebrew laws talks about the fact that we are made part of, uh, God's family by faith alone-
David: I see
Seth: ... apart from the work.
David: That's interesting because that seems to be the exact argument that people who'd, who would be on the Galician heretic's side would say. It's like, "Just go read the Hebrew Bible."
Seth: Right.
David: "It says be circumcised. It's a command."
Seth: Yes.
David: "How can you argue with that?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "Actually, the whole Bible says don't be circumcised?"
Seth: Well, what the Bible says... [laughs] He goes to Abraham.
David: The first Jew.
Seth: The first Jew. The, the guy who received the promise of circumcision itself.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, one, he was a Gentile.
David: Right. He was Babylonian.
Seth: He was Babylonian.
David: And then how did he receive the promise?
Seth: By faith
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: By faith, God counted him as righteous
David: Yeah, because God gave him the promise-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that through him all nations will be blessed and he believed Him-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and it was credited to him as righteousness. He was justified-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because he took God at his word. He had faith.
Seth: That's right. That's right, so he's like, "So the patriarch agrees with me."
David: Yep
Seth: That's how the Jews were created in the first place, was through faith.
David: Yep
Seth: So one point. Secondly, uh, not only do the patriarchs agree with me, the law itself agrees with me.
David: Mm.
Seth: The Book of Deuteronomy, he quotes the Book of Deuteronomy-
David: Oh
Seth: ... which includes all these debated identity markers that they're discussing in the Book of Galatians. It says that no one who trusts those laws to become part of God's family will be able to because no one can keep those laws perfectly, Deuteronomy 27:26.
David: Mm.
Seth: The, the law itself admits that you can't follow these laws perfectly.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so if that's, if the law-
David: Your hope [laughs]
Seth: ... if that's your hope-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the law itself tells you that can't be you.
David: Bad hope.
Seth: Because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it will ultimately fail you at some point.
David: Ah. You're like, the law says, "Be circumcised, like, do the Sabbath, eat kosher, and then you'll be okay." And it's like, actually, it says you can never follow those laws perfectly-
Seth: Right
David: ... and so you need a different hope.
Seth: Yeah, you need a different standard for what will include you in God's family-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... than just strict adherence to the law.
David: And for Deuteronomy, that standard was the covenant-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which was God saying, "I'll be your God. You will be my people."
Seth: Mm. Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Will you trust God?
David: Okay.
Seth: Will you trust that He will be your God? That's, that's the point.
David: Yeah. And will you obey Him?
Seth: Will you obey Him? Yeah.
David: Right, okay.
Seth: Then he says, okay, not only does Abraham, our first patriarch, the creator of the Jewish people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... was he justified by faith, not only does the law say-
David: The law say you need to be justified by faith [laughs]
Seth: ... you need to be justified by faith because the law is not enough, the prophets also agree with me.
David: Oh, boy
Seth: And he quotes from the book, uh, of Habakkuk and he says, "The righteous shall live by faith"
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... which is just a straight-up quote-
David: Right
Seth: ... from the Book of Habakkuk.
David: Isn't there, like, a semantic word overlap with the righteous and being justified?
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: So it's like, the righteous will live by faith is almost another way of saying you're justified by faith.
Seth: Y- I, I don't know what you're saying. [laughs]
David: [laughs] I think the Hebrew and Greek both share roots that we translate justice and righteousness.
Seth: Yes, that's true. This is right.
David: And so to have that word that says, you know, the righteous will live by faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... shares-
Seth: I understand
David: ... a, a similar word that's like you're justified by faith.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand what you're saying.
David: Like, if you have faith, you have done justice.
Seth: Yes.
David: So anyway, it's just interesting.
Seth: The, regardless of the semantic-
David: Right
Seth: ... details, the point is the same. The patriarchs, the law itself, and the prophets all agree that you are justified by faith apart from works of the law.
David: Right. So, so the whole Hebrew Bible was trying to get the people of Israel to see that they needed to have faith in something else-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, other than, like, the, the law itself or their own works or their own Jewish identity markers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um-
Seth: The, the ultimate way that you became a member of God's family-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way that you, like, expressed your faithfulness to God's family was through faith. That's the first way, the most-
David: Faith in God
Seth: ... faith in God. That's right.
David: Okay. Yeah, and faith in God to do what or to be what or-
Seth: Well, a faith that was demonstrated through certain actions-
David: Okay
Seth: ... right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That faith was demonstrated through circumcision.
David: Yep.
Seth: That faith was demonstrated through eating kosher.
David: Mm.
Seth: We believe in the promises of God, therefore, we do not eat pork.
David: Right.
Seth: We believe in the promises of God, so we follow the law.
David: Right.
Seth: That's why we follow the law-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is because we believe this thing happened. But [laughs] this is where Paul's argument continues to go-
David: Okay, okay
Seth: ... is that Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... has fulfilled that law for us.
David: Right.
Seth: So this is [laughs] where it gets even more-
David: Yes, right
Seth: ... it g- it, it gets deeper.
David: Yeah, because, you know, like, Sabbath rest and eating kosher and being circumcised, those weren't ends in themselves.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They were pictures of something, were pointing to something.
Seth: Yes.
David: They were acts of faith-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because they, they weren't having faith that circumcision will save me.
Seth: That's right.
David: They were having faith that God was doing something in the world.
Seth: They were having faith that God had called them His people.
David: Right, and, and that all nations will be blessed-
Seth: That's right
David: ... through them-
Seth: That's right
David: ... through some thing that He was going to do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so they were participating, putting, like, flesh on that faith-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by following those laws.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: So continue with Paul's arguments then.
Seth: Yes. So then he moves, oh, after saying, well, the whole Hebrew Bible talks about salvation by faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he says, now, the laws themselves and the promises that the laws that we are supposed to have faith in have also all been pointing in the same direction, which is Jesus.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he's sort of-
David: Oh, yeah. I mean, I didn't say that, so-
Seth: Uh, so yeah
David: ... I was hinting at it.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, you were hinting at it, but that's, that's where it's going. And so he says, uh, now, the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring, the promises that the whole world would be blessed would be made to his offspring.
David: But he didn't say offsprings, so he makes a, a grammatical point.
Seth: [laughs]
David: He's like, but did you notice that-
Seth: Which gives all the Bible nerds out there so much grounding-
David: So much joy
Seth: ... and it's like we're allowed to be particular over plurals and singulars, singulars.
David: He says the Hebrew word isn't actually plural.
Seth: [laughs]
David: The Hebrew word is singular.
Seth: One.
David: It's offspring-
Seth: I love when they do this
David: ... singular, uh, which means Jesus.
Seth: Right, because it wasn't, oh, every seed that you've ever borne, every offspring, every child that's ever been born to the Jewish nation. He was saying that it was going to happen through one of your offspring, singular.
David: Yes. Abraham would have a-
Seth: A s-
David: ... single offspring-
Seth: Yeah, right
David: ... who would bless the entire world.
Seth: Yep.
David: And through faith in him is how he became part of God's covenant family.
Seth: That's right. So when, when it says that Abraham was justified by faith, he was saying that he was believing God that one of his offspring would save the whole world.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so-
David: What he's saying is Abraham had faith in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He didn't know his name.
Seth: And that was 430 years before a law was ever written in Israel.
David: Whoa. And so [laughs] the-
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So God's family-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... was c- created, and people were invited into it by faith in Jesus, not by circumcision or eating kosher.
David: Right. Because... And then when s- But circumcision was given to Abraham-
Seth: That was
David: ... but not as a law.
Seth: Not as a law.
David: But as a sign.
Seth: As a sign.
David: Uh, it was, it was p- which means, and I think sign we can get all weird about.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Let's just say what a sign is. Signs point to things.
Seth: Yep.
David: If I'm driving to Orlando, I'm gonna see a sign that says, "Disney World, 50 miles." It's pointing me to something. One of my fav-
Seth: Yes
David: ... one of my favorite things.
Seth: And just to get really, uh, graphic for a second.
David: Oh, boy
Seth: Why is circumcision on your reproductive organs?
David: Right
Seth: Because the promise was given to an offspring.
David: Right.
Seth: So the reason why Hebrew men circumcised themselves was to remember and to, like, cut into their bodies a prophecy-
David: Right
Seth: ... that a Jewish descendant would come and bless the entire world.
David: Right. Every time you would circumcise a child, uh, 'cause it was on the eighth day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Every time a Jewish male was circumcised, the idea that was to be communicated there was, "Maybe this child will bear the Messiah."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Maybe this child will bear the offspring."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? And it like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and you... Like, that's the pro- it's an acted out prophecy. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... a- a- and so-
Seth: You know, I haven't thought about this before. This is totally off Galatians.
David: Okay
Seth: But it's interesting then that Jesus didn't have a biological father.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Oh, right.
Seth: It's almost as if to say God himself is-
David: Right
Seth: ... always the one who had to be the Messiah.
David: Yes.
Seth: The, the circumcision was a sign-
David: Could never have come from man.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like, oh, that's interesting.
David: That is interesting.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Side note.
David: Well, good, good side note.
Seth: It's a good side note.
David: That's good. Okay. Uh, and so then when we say that Jesus has fulfilled circumcision-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we're saying that the sign, the thing to which circumcision pointed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... has now come.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jesus is here. The offspring has been born. Therefore, the sign is no longer necessary because it's not pointing to anything new.
Seth: Right.
David: He's come. That's why when I go to Disney World and I'm inside the Magic Kingdom, I'm not gonna see the same sign that says-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, "Disney World, 50 miles."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That wouldn't make any sense 'cause I'm-
Seth: Mm
David: ... there. I don't need the sign anymore, right, because I'm, I'm there. I'm-
Seth: You're-
David: ... to the place that it pointed to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I think that's Paul's point is that the s- the offspring has come.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's here, so we don't need the sign anymore.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He, uh... [laughs] And in particular, he's, he's saying that we no longer need it as a means by which to identify-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who is part of God's family.
David: Oh, right. Because the way... That's helpful. That's better. Because the way we identify as how we're part of God's family is the same way they did.
Seth: By faith. [laughs]
David: By faith in Jesus.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Right.
Seth: And to reverse that in any way is to nullify the promise that made the Jewish people in the first place.
David: That's right.
Seth: If you start saying, "Well, no, no, it's doing a certain action is that what makes us part of God's family," then there never would've been a Jewish people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Jewish people were created, God's people were created by faith, not by doing a certain action.
David: Yeah. Okay. How else does Paul advance the argument?
Seth: So what happens next is that Paul is fairly satisfied that he has proven-
David: I mean...
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah, he's kinda painted him in the corner with the whole, like-
Seth: Uh
David: ... 430 years thing
Seth: ... that, yeah, he's like, he's proven that the Hebrew Bible teaches that we are ma- included in God's family, identified as part of God's family by faith, not by markers of ethnic inclusion-
David: Yep
Seth: ... according to the law. So the obvious question is like, okay then, okay, let's just assume the audience agrees with Paul.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Okay. So we are justified by faith, faith apart from the law. Why the heck do we have 613 laws-
David: Right
Seth: ... and so much of our Old Testament telling us to do stuff-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... if we're just gonna abandon it all?
David: Yep, here we go.
Seth: [laughs] So that's the next question.
David: We've, we've made it to, we've made it to the rubber meets the road.
Seth: [laughs] It like, that's like the most important part of this conversation because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if Paul is simply saying, "Well, the reason why we don't do it is because it doesn't matter anymore," what?
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: That feels like you're playing fast and loose with the Bible. So-
David: It absolutely does.
Seth: Uh-
David: And it seems like you're not taking Jesus at his word, that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: So how do we make sense of the purpose of the Old Testament law and why it existed if the whole thing was, like, anticipatory and a sign-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to Jesus? What do we do with it now that Jesus has come?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to inhabit the rest of Paul's argument to begin to answer that question, right? Like, we have to assume that he's right, that the bulk and the whole of the Hebrew scriptures is making a point. And that is that we are not saved by, by works, but we are saved by faith, that we are included in God's people by faith. And so, like, it can't be that the law was there to show us how to be saved. Like, he's-
Seth: Right
David: ... disproved that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, if that's in your m- mind-
Seth: Right
David: ... we can put that one aside.
Seth: Yep.
David: So it... We're not saved by the law, so they're not, they're not there to help us understand how to be right with God.
Seth: Right. But to the Galatians'-
David: Mm
Seth: ... point, doesn't the law reveal what God is like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in good expectations for his people? Isn't the law full of just commands about how to order society and to treat your family?
David: Right.
Seth: Why would we abandon something that's clearly good-
David: Yep
Seth: ... which Paul will say later, "The law is good."
David: Yep.
Seth: So what do we do with them if it's good?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's probably the question we'll answer next week.
David: Oh, we, we punted.
Seth: We're gonna punt.
David: Oh, cliffhanger.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh, man.
Seth: But before weWhy is it good news what we have so far is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the question.
David: Okay, with what we've uncovered so far, how is all of that good news? That's what we wanna ask.
Seth: Yes.
David: I mean, let's just go for it 'cause there's probably a bunch. I mean, the first one that comes to my mind is it's such good news that God has been promising and pointing to a savior that would save us through faith alone-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from the beginning.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's always been His plan, that He would save us apart from ourselves.
Seth: Yes.
David: That all we have to do is just trust Him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And come to Him as broken Babylonians, [laughs] and He will save us.
Seth: He'll save us.
David: I mean, that is really good news.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's always been the good news.
Seth: And I think to play with this familial and national language that we've been using, too, is, like, He's not merely saving us as an individual entity to be in an individual relationship with Him, but He's saving us to be a part of a community and a family that He's building.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He, He made the promise to Abraham that he would have children and children and children, and these people, this family, would be his forever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so God is saving us into a loving family system built on... The... Inclusion is, is not a strong enough word.
David: Mm.
Seth: But, like, the lack of division and hostility-
David: Mm
Seth: ... right, which is, like, what He's getting at. Like, He's building a non-hostile family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A new-
David: A new age family
Seth: ... a new age in which we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... exist in peace forever. Like, that is awesome. [laughs]
David: That's awesome. Yeah. I think the other thing I'm thinking about is I feel really personally... Like, when I think about my walk toward the gospel, [laughs] to use-
Seth: Mm
David: ... some of Paul's language, is that, like, I just still don't look right.
Seth: Okay.
David: I don't have the Christian identity markers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? Like, sure, I still eat, I eat bacon. I'm, I'm okay with that.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And we'll talk about that, why-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... we'll talk about why that next week, or in two weeks. But I still am like, I just don't, I still don't look the part.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I still don't have the right markings of a Christian.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I think I find the message of Galatians to be really good news because it reminds me that the only marker of identity I need is the fact that I do believe in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's the condemnation of Satan and my own broken conscience-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that tells me otherwise.
Seth: Yes.
David: That, "No, nope, you're not good enough yet."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Nope, you need to add something to what Jesus has done."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's just not true, that I look the part now-
Seth: Yes
David: ... only because I do actually believe that God became flesh, died for my sins, rose again, is interceding for me at the right hand of God, and is coming back for me again.
Seth: And there's a whole community of people who believe that with you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, [laughs] and-
David: And they're just as broken [laughs]
Seth: ... and they're just... And, like, and Paul is fighting to hold together-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... broken people despite their differences.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, right? It's like the, the, the thrust of Galatians, like, keep your church pushed together. You are all broken people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... saved by God, and the only thing you have in a world full of divisions is Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: And you are all holding onto Him together despite your Gentile and non-Jewish and Jewish backgrounds.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there's a whole community of people holding onto nothing else but the fact that the Messiah Jesus has promised to rescue us from the evil of this age through Himself.
David: Right.
Seth: And so we're just holding onto that rope because [laughs] like, you know, it's like-
David: What else do we have?
Seth: What else do we have? And, like, we have a whole community of people doing that with us-
David: Right
Seth: ... and fighting for the fact. That's what churches should be.
David: Mm.
Seth: They should be fighting for the fact that there is no other boundary marker except our deep knowledge that Jesus will save us on His own.
David: Mm. That is good news.
Seth: It's good news.
David: I, I wanna talk about other things that are good news in Galatians, but- I have to wait.
Seth: You'll have to wait. [laughs]
David: I have to wait. [laughs] Okay. All right.
Seth: Next week we'll talk about why on earth do we have a whole book of laws-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if Paul just told us that they're not how we become good Christians.
David: Yeah. I'm excited to talk about that.
Seth: Yes.
David: And a little nervous.
Seth: Great.
David: But good. All right. Well, thank you all so much for joining us for our first talk in the Book of Galatians. Well, just one more you think?
Seth: Just one more.
David: All right.
Seth: I think so.
David: Well, we will see you in two weeks' time for our second little chat on the Book of Galatians. We'll see you then. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
