Seth: But sons-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are free.
David: Right.
Seth: And the Holy Spirit increases that freedom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by placing inside of us the freedom to act as the law intended for us to act.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's like, "You want to obey the law, and the best way to do that is by being filled with the Spirit to allow you to do the law without limits."
Intro: [Instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told His disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of Scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [Instrumental music]
David: Well, welcome everybody to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are in our second installation of our walk through the Book of Galatians. And let's see. What have we done so far?
Seth: Last week, we talked about what Paul understands justification by faith means.
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: Uh-
David: Hey, that was a big one, wasn't it?
Seth: That was a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that was a big one, and we talked about the different ways in which it's been understood. Um, so you sh- definitely go back and listen-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or watch that if you haven't already.
David: Yeah. I, I'm guessing... I don't know what we're gonna title this episode yet, but I'm guessing with what we're gonna talk about, people have, might have landed here-
Seth: Yes
David: ... before listening to the previous episode.
Seth: Yes.
David: I would, I would highly recommend going back and listening to-
Seth: In-
David: ... the last conversation
Seth: ... Paul's argument, as he's been unpacking what it means to be justified by faith, it's like we become a member of God's family. We are included in God's family. We are identified as a member of God's family, not by doing certain Jewish laws, like eating kosher or being circumcised, but simply by trusting Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is what unifies all members of God's family, is trust in Jesus.
David: Yeah, and he proved that through the law, through the prophets, through Abraham.
Seth: Through Abraham, through the Galatians on experience.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the natural question for people who are sympathetic to wanting to obey the Old Testament regulations is, like, okay, if you're saying the Old Testament regulations aren't necessary to identify us as members of God's family, then why on earth would God spend so much time-
David: Right
Seth: ... giving us, detailing ways in which we're supposed to, to identify that we're a part of God's family?
David: Right. What are all these laws for?
Seth: What are all the laws for?
David: Aren't they in the Bible? Aren't they-
Seth: That's right
David: ... a part of the Hebrew scriptures? Aren't they God-breathed?
Seth: Yes.
David: Were they... Was all of that done, and a whole nation held under those laws for hundreds of years, just so we could throw them out when Jesus came? Like-
Seth: Didn't Jesus say, "I didn't come to abolish any of those laws"-
David: Right
Seth: ... "Paul"? Why on earth... Like, what happens to law if what Paul is saying is true?
David: Yeah, and that... And, and I think Paul asks a little bit of that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in, like, a rhetorical question or something.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he says, "Why then the law?" [laughs]
Seth: Oh, there you go.
David: And that's what? Galatians 3-
Seth: 19.
David: 19.
Seth: 3:19.
David: "Why then the law?"
Seth: Why then the law?
David: So we kinda ended our conversation last time with that very question of, so why do we have 613-odd laws in-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the Old Testament if now Paul's saying, like, "Oh, don't worry. Don't get circumcised."
Seth: Right.
David: "Like, it means nothing-
Seth: Right
David: ... now."
Seth: Like, what?
David: Wait, wait, what?
Seth: And we kinda ended by answering that question the same way that Paul does as well. So what he says is, "It was added because of transgressions-"
David: Oh
Seth: "... until the offspring," meaning Jesus-
David: Jesus
Seth: ... "should come to whom the promise had been made."
David: Right.
Seth: So what he's saying here is he's just made this point that Abraham was promised an offspring. He was promised a singular offspring-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jesus, who would bless the whole world and unite all God's people-
David: Right
Seth: ... in Him.
David: And the circumcision pointed on the, on the Israelites' reproductive organs, pointed to this singular offspring.
Seth: That one day there would be a son born-
David: Right
Seth: ... through our reproductive organs-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who would make all God's people-
David: One
Seth: ... one by faith.
David: And would bless all nations.
Seth: And bless all nations.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that was the point of circumcision. And he-
David: Yep, and so now that signpost, the thing it pointed to is here.
Seth: His point is that the law, as we said before, was a sign to that end.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It was pointing towards that. And more than that, the law was really to constrain your behavior in a certain way. It was added because of transgressions. Israel wasn't a perfect people.
David: Mm.
Seth: But they needed to be shaped and guided in the way of God and Jesus, the coming Messiah.
David: Right.
Seth: And so they were there to provide, uh, constraints on their behavior-
David: Yep
Seth: ... while simultaneously pointing to the offspring who'd one day unify all God's people and create one new family in himself.
David: Okay. So when Paul asks, "Why then the law?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, what do you think is going on in his opponents' minds, right? 'Cause I think he's probably guessing their retort.
Seth: Right.
David: He's like, "Okay, I know I've said all this stuff about the, like, circumcision being brought to f-fulfillment. I know you're probably asking then, so then why all these laws?"
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, what do you think is going on in their mind, in his opponents' mind? Like, why-
Seth: Well-
David: ... would they be asking that question?
Seth: Because I think what they're assuming Paul is saying is that the law is at odds with the promises that God has made, and that there's a, that Paul is saying that there is a contradiction in the Bible between the promises God made of a Messiah-
David: Ah
Seth: ... and the laws He gave to God's people.
David: I see. Yeah.
Seth: And Paul-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you're inserting too much, or sa- you're going too far.
David: Right.
Seth: D- what, your idea of what Jesus does is contradictingWhat our scriptures also say, and they say it explicitly in verse 21.
David: Mm.
Seth: "Is the law then contrary to the promises of God?"
David: I mean, oh.
Seth: Paul puts that-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... question in their mouth.
David: So, you know, Paul has this line. He says, "Why then the law?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm guessing he's, like, expecting or anticipating that retort from-
Seth: That's right
David: ... opponents. Uh, what was going on in the opponent's mind, do you think, that would've brought them to this problem of like, "Okay, why, why do we have these laws then, Paul? If we're gonna throw circumcision out, why do we have them?"
Seth: Right. Because Paul is implying that faith in Jesus functionally makes all those laws obsolete.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so they're saying, like, "Aren't these good parts of God's character communicated to us?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "How can God be at cross purposes with himself?"
David: Mm.
Seth: He, he promised us, yes, the Messiah, yes.
David: Right.
Seth: But he never said that his commands shouldn't be followed.
David: Right.
Seth: You're kind of making Jesus an accessory to your sin, actually, Paul.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he'll, they'll make, they'll say that more explicitly in a second.
David: Right.
Seth: But that's, I think underneath it-
David: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think a lot of people probably agree with that idea today, where it's like, "Okay, yeah, we have faith in Jesus just like everybody else," but you, like, you can't just say then throw out your Old Testament or throw out your law book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, God communicated to us his w- like, the way to be human, the way to-
Seth: Yes
David: ... live out his character, the Ten Commandments. Like, you want me to just because Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... fulfilled the law of circumcision, you want me to just throw out thou shall not murder now?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, like how else are we supposed to understand what's right and wrong in the world without the law?
Seth: That's right. And so Paul's response to this is to say, like, "You're misunderstanding what the law was intended to do."
David: Okay.
Seth: That's kinda how he, he takes this.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says, "Is the law contrary to the promise of God? Certainly not."
David: Certainly not.
Seth: "Certainly not. Because if the law could give life-"
David: Mm
Seth: "... then righteousness would've been indeed by the law." Meaning, if the law was intended to create members of God's family-
David: Ooh, yeah
Seth: ... then it would've done so. But scripture tells us over, and over, and over again that the entire people of God have been imprisoned by sin, basically from page one.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the whole scripture just tells us they can't do anything but sin.
David: Right.
Seth: So the law was never intended to create God's people.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Which means then the promise of scripture is that by faith in Jesus Christ, all of us could be saved. The law wasn't meant to save us, faith in Jesus Christ was-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is what the whole scripture has been about. The law wasn't meant to save us, faith was.
David: Right.
Seth: That's, and that's his-
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: That makes sense then. And so then I kind of am dying to know how Paul would answer the question, then why the law? Like, couldn't he have just, couldn't God have just said, like, "Hey, just have faith, and I will provide a savior"?
Seth: Yes.
David: Why 613 laws?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: That seems overburdening.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like, is that, is that, is that-
Seth: That's basic-
David: ... an answer to the question?
Seth: He kind of, like, concludes this way by getting to one of the most, another really famous part of, uh, Galatians, where he said, "There's neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free." And he's just concluding this point that we're making.
David: Mm.
Seth: The way in which all people are saved is through faith in Jesus. There's not a Jewish and Gentile way to be saved, a male or female way to be saved-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but Jesus Christ alone. So what Paul does is he compares God's relationship to his people like a child who is the heir of a large estate.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like God's people, a child would be under certain rules and expectations until he matures.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Right. Totally. You're not gonna just give a four-year-old a billion dollars.
Seth: Right. You need to train him. He needs to learn how to act. There's certain parameters, qualifications they need before they can inherit this great estate.
David: Right. So in this metaphor-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or allegory, I suppose.
Seth: Yes. Yeah.
David: Uh, you've got Israel is a little kid.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the Kingdom of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is the estate.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's, uh, yes, that's right.
David: Okay. And he's like, "I'm not just gonna give you the whole kit and caboodle on day one. You gotta be trained up."
Seth: That's right.
David: "'Cause you're a four-year-old, I'm not giving you a billion dollars."
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so the law functioned like a trustee would function.
David: Right. Like, it would be ridiculous to p- have a, a 7:00 PM curfew for a 40-year-old man.
Seth: Yes.
David: But a four-year-old boy makes sense.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so, and so is, is he saying the law is like a curfew?
Seth: In a sense.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah. He's saying the law is like, um, a guardian or a trustee, somebody who was guiding an individual's behavior-
David: Oh, I see. So maybe not the curfew itself-
Seth: But-
David: ... but the one who enforces the curfew.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And guiding their behavior until they were mature enough to receive the whole estate, and once they receive the whole estate, the, the commands of the trustee don't go away in one sense.
David: They would be internalized.
Seth: They would be internalized, and then they would inform all their actions going forward.
David: Right. It's like-
Seth: What's the purpose of all those laws?
David: Yeah. I see.
Seth: To, to, to transform them, to change them, to make them the type of people-
David: Right
Seth: ... who can inherit such a great estate-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then activate it, and you use it appropriately.
David: I see.
Seth: The law of the Old Testament did that for God's people.
David: Mm.
Seth: It trained them to be the type of people who are ready to inherit the estate, and once they did, could bless the whole world with it.
David: I see.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. But the problem was they never kept the law or, like, internalized the law in such a way that they were ready to actually receive the full inheritance.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so they, instead of receiving the full Kingdom of God in Israel, they were exiled from the land.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Jesus is trying to come and bring that kingdom-to fruition now.
Seth: Uh, yes. Well, that's not quite the way he makes the argument.
David: Okay, okay.
Seth: But, like, that is the biblical story.
David: Okay [laughs]. Yeah.
Seth: Right? Yes.
David: Yeah. That's like, right.
Seth: It's like they tried to keep the law, they failed-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... they were exiled, they need that whole thing-
David: Right
Seth: ... to, uh, restart.
David: But Paul's not going there.
Seth: Paul doesn't go there.
David: Okay.
Seth: No, he, he's-
David: But that, that image is helpful of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of this little kid who's, needs to learn how to be the kind of person who could wisely steward a billion dollars.
Seth: That's right. Uh-
David: And-
Seth: Yes
David: ... he's, he's given a nanny or a, a, a-
Seth: Yes
David: ... life coach [laughs]-
Seth: That's-
David: ... like, "Hey, you know, I'm gonna give you some rules, you're gonna have a curfew, you're gonna go to arithmetic class, and we're gonna go spend some time with poor people so you understand, you know, the need in the world."
Seth: That's right.
David: "But then by the time you graduate my class and you get the billion dollars, I'm gonna go away-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but everything I taught you will stay."
Seth: Will stay, and you will have the inherit- the blessing.
David: Okay.
Seth: You will go out in the world.
David: I follow that.
Seth: So that's kind of verse, chapter four, verses one to three, and then chapter four, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son."
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, between verse three and verse four is everything that you talked about.
David: I see.
Seth: Like [laughs] the exile-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and all that kind of stuff.
David: And the fullness of time is, like, the kid's grown up? Or-
Seth: The, the kid's grown up. I think eventually here the idea here is that Jesus arrives.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so, like, after time has passed, until the time that God had ordained, until this person matures, yes.
David: Yep.
Seth: "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those who were under the law so that we might receive adoption as sons."
David: Interesting. Super interesting.
Seth: To redeem those under the law. So the idea-
David: Yeah, it c- I'm just like, hold on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I just wanna ask a question.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: 'Cause, like, if the law could save us, right, if the law was-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the means of our salvation, why would we need redemption from it?
Seth: Right. It's almost as if no matter how much maturing the law did, it was never able, to your point, to actually mature the people of God into people who could receive the inheritance.
David: Right, because redemption is only necessary whenever you have a debt.
Seth: Yeah.
David: If you have a debt-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that debt needs to be paid by a redeemer.
Seth: Yep.
David: The redeemer pays the debt, and you've been redeemed.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so if the law was going to be our redeemer, it's kind of doing a really bad job at it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because it's only putting us in debt.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: There was a deficit of maturity-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... under the Old Testament law. So-
David: So it wasn't doing its job?
Seth: In a way, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or the people were not the type of people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who could actually obey it.
David: Yeah. I think, yeah, Romans 7 would step in and, and-
Seth: Uh
David: ... add that color that you just added.
Seth: Uh, yeah. But so what's interesting-
David: 'Cause the law is good
Seth: ... 'cause the law is good.
David: Yes.
Seth: So okay, but there's a whole bunch of children-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who can't seem to mature under the strictures of this trustee.
David: Right.
Seth: So a brother comes, an older brother comes.
David: Oh.
Seth: Right? God sent forth His Son.
David: Right.
Seth: Israel-
David: Not a trustee
Seth: ... not a trustee, another son.
David: Another son.
Seth: And He comes in born of a woman, just like all Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Born under the law-
David: Yep
Seth: ... just like all Israel.
David: But He knows how to steward a billion dollars.
Seth: Yes. And so He obeys-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the Old Testament laws.
David: Perfectly lives it out.
Seth: He matures-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and He is able now to inherit the estate-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and then adopt all people as sons, as brothers.
David: Yep, and sisters.
Seth: And sisters.
David: As sisters [laughs].
Seth: [laughs] Brothers and sisters.
David: Nor, neither male or female, Seth.
Seth: Neither male or female.
David: Come on.
Seth: We all cry out, "Abba, Father" to God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and rule the estate with Jesus.
David: Oh, man, that's so helpful. That's really clear. Um, I've never seen it fully mapped out as that picture before. So what does that mean for the law, then? Because-
Seth: Right
David: ... I think we tiptoed around it there for a second. It's like the law is good-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... just like any, any, uh, guardian would hopefully be good. The problem was never with the guardian. The problem was the guardian was given an unruly child [laughs].
Seth: Yeah. Right.
David: That no matter how great of an overseer he was, they would never be able to rein in the child. And we're not, and, and let's just be really clear here, we're not saying, like, Israel was so messed up, you know, it was just humanity.
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause, like, if the guardian would never be able to fix any of us, we were all-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... regardless of our ethnicity, we're all unruly.
Seth: I was reading one commentator who kinda made that point. There does seem to be in this, in this Judaizer, like, false teaching, a sense in which, like, Jews who by their own lights were trying to obey the law were somehow morally superior than the rest of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like, part of what Paul is doing here in Galatians is exposing, no, this is actually, like, a human problem. Like, they are-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... guilty of what they as a people are under the same curse all humanity is under, and they're not escaping that either. But yes, that's exactly right.
David: Mm-hmm. Okay. All right, I get that picture. Uh, what's, is there, like, another... But does that solve the issue for Paul in the Galatians?
Seth: Uh-
David: No
Seth: ... he, uh, no, it doesn't.
David: Okay.
Seth: There's, there's more going on.
David: Okay.
Seth: But he's giving a, an analogy to what the law was supposed to do in the people of God. So I, I think this is helpful for people who are trying to understand what the Old Testament law was supposed to do.
David: That's all.
Seth: That's, that's how, like, why, why is there a law?
David: Right.
Seth: It was meant to train people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to be ready to inherit the worldwide kingdom of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what the law is for.
David: But no one could do it.
Seth: But no one could do it.
David: And so our brother Jesus came-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... did it perfectly, graduated, and inherited the blessing-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the worldwide kingdom.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right? "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me," He says.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And then He adopts us and gives us part of the kingdom.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the law should still try to function in the way that it did before, as a formative discipline informing how we rule-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... with Jesus, right?
David: Right.
Seth: That, that, it's still serving that purpose for God's people.
David: Yep.
Seth: Which means I think there can be a diversity of opinions on how exactly that works out.
David: Yep.
Seth: I don't think Paul ever says in the Book of Galatians is that it's wrong to eat kosher.
David: No.
Seth: I think-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... it's just wrong to demand you must eat kosher.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think there's room he, Paul's making room. It's like, okay, the law is a piece of wisdom for God's people to help rule the world with Jesus, to steward the inheritance with Jesus. There is going to be some room for interpretation there-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because that's what it's meant to do.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And besides that, the law itself was, um-encoded in a time and space in history. Like-
David: Sure. Yeah
Seth: ... it was for a Jewish people living thousands of, thousands of years ago and if that same law was written today, there would obviously be changes to th- that law, but that would still reflect nonetheless the cha-
David: The perfect character of God
Seth: ... the perfect character of God.
David: And what it would mean to be, um, an inheritor of his kingdom.
Seth: Yeah. And interestingly enough, and this is just like an interesting aside, when this conversation about, okay, what happens to the law now that all these Gentiles are being brought into God's family in the Book of Acts-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Acts 15, there's a whole council in Acts-
David: Yes, they convene a council
Seth: ... to talk about this, and as they get down to it, they basically come to the same conclusion that Paul makes, is like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... trusting in Jesus is what makes us God's family.
David: Right.
Seth: Nothing else. So we should encourage the Gentiles to do nothing more than to abstain from sexual immorality.
David: Abstain.
Seth: Abstain. Ab-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... abstain, abstain from sexual immorality, abstain from, uh-
David: Food sacrificed to idols
Seth: ... food sacrificed to idols, and interestingly, to not drink or eat blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Which is really- which is part of the Jewish food commands, which is really interesting because they seem to understand that there's something symbolic and important and meaningful about the blood commands-
David: Right
Seth: ... that should transition over to Gentiles as part of their formation.
David: Right.
Seth: Which is really fascinating.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh-
David: So does that now mean that British people are sinning when they eat black pudding?
Seth: I think that is an interpretive question. I don't have the cali-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the, the, the, the caliber of mind to answer at this c- current moment. But, like, I think that's the way we should be thinking about the law.
David: Okay.
Seth: Is that it is a guide to our behavior as we inherit the kingdom alongside our brother, Jesus.
David: Yeah. And I think a big alarm bell that's probably going off for people is, whoa, whoa, whoa, it kinda feels like you're playing fast and loose with God's law, with the Bible, that these aren't, like, suggestions that you should figure out how to apply. They're laws. They're clear. Like-
Seth: But-
David: ... it kind of feels like you're playing fast and loose
Seth: ... only if I'm misunderstanding the purpose of the law.
David: Right.
Seth: The, the law is not meant to create members of God's family.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's meant to guide people who are already members of God's family in their behavior in the new kingdom.
David: Right.
Seth: So it can still do that without the strong, "You must do this in order to be part of God's family."
David: I think the other way to look at it, too, and the way, the, the other way to answer that question is, let's look at circumcision and, and then even though it's kind of outside the scope of Galatians, I think it's helpful. Let's look at the kosher laws.
Seth: Okay.
David: Just real quick.
Seth: Yeah.
David: As two things that are in the law that, and one of which, you know, Paul deals with here, and another of which he deals with elsewhere.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but circumcision, right? If, if we thought it was just a law that you have to obey in order to be in, or the right way to be in God's family, he's proven that wrong.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That, and I think it'd be really, really hard to read Galatians faithfully and come to the conclusion that you have to be circumcised in order to be a Christian.
Seth: Right.
David: I think that's what the whole letter is saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is not true.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, I think we can go in kinda heavy there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and say there's at least one law-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that you don't have to obey, and you're still just as faithful a Christian.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's because what do you mean by obey it?
Seth: If obey-
David: Right
Seth: ... means circumcision as an act of faith pointing to Jesus the Messiah-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we actually obey the circumcision law-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by trusting Jesus the Messiah.
David: That's right. We are obeying the law.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, and so, but to say that you must be physically circumcised is actually missing the point of the law.
Seth: Right.
David: You're actually not obeying the law by being circumcised. Anybody in the world could be circumcised. That doesn't mean they're doing something good.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? Anybody in the world could not eat pork.
Seth: That's right.
David: That doesn't mean they're doing something good-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or right.
Seth: Yeah. That doesn't-
David: God, it's, like, God didn't say don't eat pork because he doesn't like pigs.
Seth: Right. There aren't, I mean, there's-
David: Or because it's unclean
Seth: ... a whole bunch of vegetarian people groups and tribes-
David: Right
Seth: ... that don't eat pork, but that does not-
David: Mean that they're imaging God or being stewards-
Seth: More
David: ... of his kingdom.
Seth: Th- like, right, more than a tribe next door that might be eating pork.
David: Right. That's r- yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we, what we have to understand is there was a point to the law-
Seth: That's right
David: ... of circumcision, right? It was a sign pointing to Jesus. And so the only way to actually obey the law of circumcision was to have faith that God was gonna provide an offspring.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the, the, you know, before Jesus came, people did that by enacting that in their flesh.
Seth: Yes.
David: We do it by enacting it in our life, by actually-
Seth: That's right
David: ... believing that Jesus is the offspring promised to Abraham.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Same kind of thing for the food laws, right? Although, again, this is not Galatians per se. Food laws weren't there just to say, "Don't eat these things or you're sinning."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They were there to show the distinctiveness of God's people.
Seth: That's right.
David: We, as God's distinct people, are gonna have this diet.
Seth: Mm.
David: Even though the Gentiles, they will eat those things. We won't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because we're separate.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then whenever those food laws were overturned, it was in the context of the Book of Acts and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Jew, or Gentile inclusion into the Jewish people.
Seth: Right.
David: When Peter saw the, like, net of animals-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... come down from heaven, and there were some unclean animals in there, God said, "Arise, kill and eat." And he's like, "I won't. I've never let anything unclean happen to me." He's like, "Don't call anything-
Seth: I've made unclean
David: ... I've made unclean." And then knock, knock, knock on his door.
Seth: Some-
David: And someone invites him to come and preach the gospel to Gentiles. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then he realizes the point of the vision.
Seth: Right.
David: And so the point of the law of, like, for eating kosher was to show the distinctiveness of God's people-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from the Gentiles.
Seth: That's right.
David: But now that they're, those laws don't have to be observed in that way is-
Seth: Well, now that-
David: Sorry, yes
Seth: ... unity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... between Jew and Gentile has been made possible by Jesus. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: We don't need to separate ourselves-
David: Right
Seth: ... from other brothers of Jesus with our food laws.
David: Right. Obeying the kosher laws is not-First and foremost about what you eat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but about why you are eating it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you are eating it because you are God's distinct people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now we know we're God's distinct people-
Seth: Right
David: ... by faith in Jesus alone.
Seth: That's right.
David: And we know that there are people included from every nation in this people group, so actually when we eat anything, we are actually proclaiming our unity with others.
Seth: Right. And to Paul, and Paul will say this later, if you s- begin to eat kosher-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in a mixed group of people and demand that they eat kosher alongside you, you're actually now breaking the law.
David: Oh.
Seth: Because we have been unified-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by faith in Jesus. And kosher food laws were actually a sign of unity for God's covenant people.
David: Right.
Seth: It was a distinction from the world outside, but actually a symbol of the unity of God's people.
David: Right.
Seth: So if you start eating kosher when you have been unified by faith in Jesus-
David: Yeah, or demanding that people do so
Seth: ... demanding-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that people do so, you're actually breaking the law that law was meant to point to.
David: I see. 'Cause it was a unity law.
Seth: It was a unity law.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, it was a separation and a unity law.
David: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought that.
Seth: Yeah, but like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The heart of the law was to unify God's people around a common meal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to identify with one another as people who believe in the promise-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Jesus the Messiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: So what, what we're saying here is the reason why this is such a hot topic and the reason why I, I so sympathize with people [laughs] who are like, "We still need to obey every law. It's God's law"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but what's happening here that, that Paul's pointing out is you, you have to understand what the law is. The law is not a thing written down that you have to obey word for word. L- right? Like, be circumcised-
Seth: It is-
David: ... forever.
Seth: It is not something that makes us a member of God's family.
David: Right. That's right, yeah. But, but what I'm saying is to obey the law-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right, isn't to just rote go through the actions.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But the two examples we've just given have said that there's a point to the law.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Circumcision was pointing to an offspring.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, the food laws were pointing to unity and distinction.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, like, the law is pointing to something too-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I think is, is another thing-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes
David: ... that we're putting on the line here.
Seth: Yes.
David: But yeah, okay. So I, I think I get all that. It's still really, really fuzzy in this instance though.
Seth: No, it is, and what's interesting is that Paul doesn't actually make this argument that we're trying to make right here about, like, the end of the law, the pur- like, the purpose of individual laws-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... in isolation from one another.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like the law was a guide.
David: Yep.
Seth: Let's move on. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Maybe because as soon as you start doing so, it gets really complicated really fast, and you have to ask, "Well, what, in what way are each of these laws fulfilled, and how exactly are they fulfilled in Jesus?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And how exactly do they point to the greater reality of Jesus?" And it gets-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... complicated.
David: Which is a fascinating exercise.
Seth: And a bunch of different people have different opinions-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 'cause we even, like, kinda whiffled here between, like, is it a separation law or a unity law?
David: Unity law, right.
Seth: And I think there is some interpretive gray area there.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so.
David: Yeah, but I think that's... It's really interesting. And anyway, just a self plug, I remember, uh, what was it? Almost four years ago or something like that, when you and I went through, like, Exodus together in the podcast. We actually went through all the laws and talked about how several of them pointed to Jesus in different ways, so that was fun.
Seth: That was fun, yeah.
David: We talked about the fulfillment of Jesus-
Seth: Yes, in the laws
David: ... in the law in a bunch of different ways.
Seth: Yes.
David: So if you're curious, you can go back in there. [instrumental music] Okay, let's move on. So what does Paul say next? Because we've defined what the law is, that it's a guardian, and that we're like a, we, we were, I guess, like a kid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the law was our guardian.
Seth: Yes. He says it another way.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says, "No, we're just not like a child under a guardian. We're also like a slave with a master."
David: Okay.
Seth: And the law was our master-
David: Mm
Seth: ... guiding and telling us what to do, and we were the law's slave.
David: That's interesting.
Seth: It's interesting.
David: Uh, I mean, it's, it kinda throws me for a loop, 'cause I'm used to talking about Israel was enslaved to Egypt-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then God freed them and gave them-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... a covenant.
Seth: Yeah. Slave generally has negative connotations in our mind.
David: Right.
Seth: You know, like oppressive connotations.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think Paul probably just means it in the more kind of like cultural sense that his-
David: Right
Seth: ... day would have had it, like slaves were just part of, of life. A third of the population was slaves.
David: Right.
Seth: A lot of the Christians in his church would have been slaves. There were ex-slaves who were pastors in the church. There was-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... you know, like, slaves that might have been-
David: Occupational slavery.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's a, it's a little bit different.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: And so in, more analogous probably to our, like, employee-employer relationship.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like this is just the way in which the world works, regardless of whether that should be [chuckles] the way it works.
David: Okay, that's helpful.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. So he's not calling... I think it's just, I just wanna make sure we're not r- misreading Paul and-
Seth: Right
David: ... importing our vision of slavery on him and being like, "Wait, he's calling the law-
Seth: Right
David: ... some evil slave master?"
Seth: Yeah, in the same way that a child is supposed to obey a parental or a guardian, uh, an employee must obey his employer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But he uses the word slave and master.
David: Good.
Seth: And then he u- unpacks that image of a slave with, by appealing to the Old Testament story of Hagar and Sarah.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: Which is weird. Uh, and he kinda calls it out as weird. He says, "This is an allegory. I'm gonna go allegorical on you-"
David: [laughs]
Seth: "... as I start to unpack this other allegory." [laughs]
David: Man, I tell you what, Galatians, we said this in the last episode.
Seth: Oh.
David: Galatians just sets up all the tools we Bible nerds need.
Seth: Oh.
David: It said that we can be, we can care about plurals versus singulars, and now we can care about allegory. It's just, it's a playground for us.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So this is how he starts the story about Hagar and Sarah. He says, "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: So he's, he's, he's accusing them of not paying close enough attention to the way the law actually-
David: Right, you say, you say, "I don't care about the law." Are, are you paying close enough attention to it yourself?
Seth: "It was written that Abraham had two sons-
David: Right
Seth: ... one by a slave woman and one by a free woman."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But the son of the slave woman was born according to the flesh-"Well, the son of the free woman was born through promise.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so he's paralleling. You've got Hagar, who was born through the flesh.
David: The flesh, meaning, like, of Abraham's own effort, or even of Abraham just not trusting God's promises.
Seth: Him trying to create a family on his own.
David: Right.
Seth: That's right, yeah. And then one was promised a family.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's-
David: He's like, "Through Sarah-
Seth: Through Sarah
David: ... I will give you a son. Just trust me." "Well, God, you're not really on my time. I'm gonna go do it myself."
Seth: Yeah. "So you can interpret these two women allegorically," Paul says.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, one of... And they're both covenants. One is from Mount Sinai.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the Jewish covenant, which is interesting, 'cause Hagar doesn't bear the Jewish line.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, she... One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery.
David: Whoa.
Seth: And Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and she [laughs] corresponds to the present Jerusalem because she is in slavery with her children, but the Jerusalem above is free. And then he quotes this-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... uh, prophecy, and he says, "Now, brothers, you are children of the promise-"
David: Mm
Seth: ... children of Sarah," which is something that they would've intuitively understood. He's like, "Okay, we know, as people who are reading the Bible, that we are children of Sarah-
David: Right
Seth: ... not of Hagar."
David: Right.
Seth: "We know this." And so Paul is using that-
David: Against them. [laughs]
Seth: ... that, that against them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's saying, "What we do know is that Sarah and her children were made part of God's family through promises-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not through slavery."
David: Right.
Seth: "And as I've said before, the law is kind of like a slave master."
David: Mm.
Seth: "He's kind of like a master, a guardian, telling you what you must do."
David: Right.
Seth: "But that's not how you became part of God's family. You became-"
David: Became through believing a promise
Seth: ... but through believing a promise, through the freedom of a promise, not the-
David: Right
Seth: ... slavery of a law."
David: So is this him, again, proving the point that we're saved by faith and not by the law?
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. That, that's what, what he's doing.
David: Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So then if we're just free a- and the law's this guide, but, but we can't just go and follow it and save ourselves, you know? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... then what, what's it for? Like, uh, I mean, I think the, the, the Galatians would probably... I think Paul goes on to argue with them that they... That the next argument that they would have is, like, "Well, if we're free to do whatever we want-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or if we're free from the law, won't we just do whatever? Won't we just go back to the old Dark Ages of l- sin and in- evil and wickedness?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In, uh, in about, uh, 15 verses, he makes exactly that point. In, uh, chapter 5 verse 16, he says, "But I say, instead of walking by the flesh, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
David: Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: 'Cause now that we've defined what it means to do something by the flesh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... right, as not trusting the promise and trying to gin it up yourself-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in the Abraham-Hagar story-
Seth: Yep
David: ... he's saying, "Actually, if you want to go back and obey the law after you've been freed by Christ and think that is where your hope lies, you're actually just going back into slavery."
Seth: That's right, yes.
David: "For freedom Christ has set us free."
Seth: "Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Yeah.
David: And so yoke of slavery is not to go on sinning. The yoke of slavery he's talking about is, is trying to-
Seth: Is-
David: ... like-
Seth: To force your way into God's family
David: ... by obedience to the law.
Seth: By obedience to the law.
David: Yeah, 'cause, I mean, it does make sense, though, to go... But I, I, I think this is gonna rub people the wrong way, and I get that. I apologize [laughs] for that. I'm just trying to say it clearly. It's like to try to suggest that we need to obey all of the laws in order to be right in God's eyes and to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in God's family is actually slavery.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's just hard... I feel, I feel uncomfortable saying that, though, 'cause it's like they're-
Seth: Right
David: ... God's laws. Like [laughs]
Seth: But it, again, it goes back to the what is the purpose of the law?
David: Right.
Seth: The law was never intended to create a member of God's family, but to guide people who were in God's family-
David: Right
Seth: ... to be ready to inherit the promise of God's kingdom.
David: Yeah, and to say it another way, too, like we said in the last episode, the, the law was given to show us that we couldn't keep it perfectly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order that we would need to trust in the promise that God was bringing. And so if you were gonna say, "Okay, you know what? I, I think, though, it's still r- a really good idea to try to obey all the law."
Seth: Mm.
David: You can't. Like, you can't do it.
Seth: Well-
David: Oh, what did I do?
Seth: ... which is exactly kinda where Paul goes next.
David: Oh, okay. [laughs]
Seth: He's saying your intuition-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that you want to obey the law perfectly-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is actually exactly right.
David: Oh.
Seth: You should want to obey the law perfectly.
David: Okay.
Seth: That is... Like, it is an expression of God's character-
David: Right
Seth: ... and heart. That's what you should want.
David: It's a good desire.
Seth: It's a good desire.
David: Okay, that makes me feel a little bit better.
Seth: Yeah, he-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, yes. He says... Oh, I'm so excited.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So verse 13, he says... He's gonna go back. I'm gonna... Let me go back a little bit. "For freedom you were called, brothers. Don't use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But through love serve one another. In fact, the whole law is fulfilled in one word, one phrase, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Therefore, I say, walk by the Spirit."
David: Mm.
Seth: And what he's gonna say is, like, the way that you fulfill the law, which was always summarized as love God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and love neighbors, and he even quotes Galatians. That's a... Uh, not Galatians.
David: Mm.
Seth: He quotes Leviticus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's quoting from Leviticus when he says this. He's saying the way that you actually obey the law, the heart of the law, the center-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is by being filled with the Spirit that Jesus Christ the Messiah offers to you.
David: Mm.
Seth: The way that you do what you say you wanna do is by trusting in Jesus alone and not the signs you keep holding onto as the ways in which you prove that you're a part of God's family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's kind of-
David: Well, and, and it sounds like loveRight? This idea of like, "Oh, yeah, you wanna obey the whole law? Good."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "It's a good thing. You wanna know what that is? It's loving others-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as you're filled by the Spirit of Christ."
Seth: That's right. This is probably the part of Paul's theology where I get, like, excited, but also a little mystical.
David: Ooh.
Seth: And probably the part where I've, I'm not as clear on how the law and the Spirit interact with one another-
David: Sure
Seth: ... and the Spirit, like, is a new law written-
David: Yes
Seth: ... inside of us.
David: That's right.
Seth: So, and, and that's where he's going.
David: Right.
Seth: He's saying the fear in saying we don't need to eat kosher-
David: Right
Seth: ... we don't need to be circumcised, in fact, the whole Old Testament law was temporary-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, it's-
David: Is that we're just gonna go off the rails
Seth: ... is we're gonna go off the rails.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, "No, no, no. The whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming, being our brother, and ruling alongside us is that He would live in us to fulfill the law perfectly-
David: Right
Seth: ... through His Holy Spirit."
David: Yeah. Because the Holy Spirit is, you know... I mean, I mean, we can say it this way. The Holy Spirit was one of the, uh, like, one of the ways the law was written, you know?
Seth: That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He, He breathed it out, and now the very author of the law has come to indwell us. So now we don't have a law outside of us, over us, telling us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what to do, we have the author of the law inside of us and operating the law, causing us to obey it.
Seth: Right. And another way that he says it is that you can think about the law as constraining behavior.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A slave master constrains behavior.
David: Right.
Seth: A, a guardian constrains behavior, but sons-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are free.
David: Right.
Seth: And the Holy Spirit increases that freedom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by placing inside of us the freedom to act as the law intended for us to act.
David: Right.
Seth: Not filled with envy and division, but full of love, and joy, and peace, and patience, and kindness, and goodness, and the whole-
David: Yes
Seth: ... fruit of the Spirit, which he mentions here.
David: Right.
Seth: And he says, "Against these things, there is no law."
David: Mm.
Seth: He's like, "You want to obey the law, and the best way to do that is by being filled with the Spirit to allow you to do the law without limits."
David: Man, that is fascinating because the whole idea here is they're like, "We, we wanna obey the law." The, this idea of obeying the law is actually a good thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's a good desire. We want to, you know, bear the image of God. We wanna be like Him. We wanna o- be obedient to what He said. And it's like, yeah, actually, though, if you try to do that through the law, you're actually putting limits on it. You'll actually only be able to do it in part or as a slave-
Seth: Yes
David: ... or you'll fail.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But if you really wanna nail it, and you wanna do it in the perfect way, it's actually to understand that the law has now moved inside your heart through the Spirit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and it's gonna bear fruit in your life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's actually through freedom from the law that you'll actually obey the law for the first time.
Seth: And be free to do it finally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's so interesting.
Seth: Once we realize we are free from needing to do the parts of the law in order to identify ourselves-
David: Mm. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as part of God's family, once we free ourselves from the anxiety of trying to prove that we're a part of God's family, we can actually be filled with the Holy Spirit. That lets us joyfully enjoy being a part of God's family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We get to enjoy the privileges of owning the estate because we're not worried that we're failing up to the, the commands-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the trustee, right?
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, we're free.
David: Right.
Seth: We're free.
David: Yeah, but it's int- it is interesting that when you're a slave and you're under the law trying to do the best you can, you, you just can't do it perfectly. It's only when you realize that the whole estate is yours that you actually start obeying all the commands that the trustee had given.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's, it's just, we have it so backwards, and so it's actually in letting go of the law, you get it all back-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in a different way.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's really cool.
Seth: Um, and in letting go of the law, let's define that.
David: Oh, sure, yeah.
Seth: Letting go of the law is holding on to the point of the law, which is-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Jesus Christ.
David: That's right.
Seth: Jesus Christ is the point to which the law was pointing.
David: Right.
Seth: So when we cling to Jesus, who did, by the way, obey every single one of the 613 laws that you want obeyed-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jesus did it.
David: Yes.
Seth: The, it, it's being done. It has been done for you.
David: Yes.
Seth: Those have been accomplished, and it's by trusting Him that that becomes true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what it means to let go of the law is by-
David: Right
Seth: ... clinging to Jesus.
David: And when we cling to Jesus, He gives us His Spirit, by which He Himself obeyed all the laws.
Seth: Right.
David: And so what are we gonna do? If we cling to Jesus, what's it gonna do? And we follow Him.
Seth: We are going to love God and love others as the law-
David: We're gonna fulfill-
Seth: ... intended
David: ... the law perfectly.
Seth: That's right.
David: You know, bit by bit. You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes, like, yes. And-
David: But the good thing is, like, when we don't, we're not condemned. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Because we're not under the law anymore-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but under grace and in faith. That's really good. [gentle music] Okay, so what else does Paul say in Galatians before we close out this conversation?
Seth: [sighs] Maybe the last thing that we should land the plane on, which we haven't talked about yet, is something we skipped over in chapter three.
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: Uh, about how Jesus has rescued us from the curse of the law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by becoming a curse for us. Cursed, because what is written in the, the Old Testament law?
David: Cursed.
Seth: Cursed is everybody who- hangs on a tree
Seth: ... who, uh, hangs on a tree. So we talked about this very positively.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What is Jesus doing when we have faith in Him? We are being given His Spirit that already obeyed the law while He was on earth. It's being placed inside us, freeing us to finally obey the law in our own lives.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, the other way to talk about that-
David: [laughs] is that we were under the law, and we needed a redeemer [laughs] 'cause-... we racked up a debt.
David: Right
Seth: Because what do laws do? They incriminate people-
David: Right
Seth: ... who don't live up to them.
David: Right. When I break a law, there's a punishment on the other side.
Seth: Yes.
David: Or else it's not really a law. Right.
Seth: Right. Uh, and so that punishment in, in the Old Testament parlance is called a curse.
David: Right.
Seth: So everybody in Old Testament times who were trying to follow the Jewish laws were under a curse, which is part of Paul's point.
David: That's right, because when they accepted and ratified this law as a people group, God said, "If you obey the laws, you'll be blessed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if you disobey them, you'll be cursed."
Seth: Right.
David: And they said, "Amen and amen"
Seth: Yes.
David: "to all the curses." And then what happened? They did not obey the law perfectly, and therefore they incurred all the curses.
Seth: Right. And the ultimate curse was to no longer be God's people.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what exile, in a, in a sense was.
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: It was to be removed from the, the land that God had given them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... be sent out into the Babylonian wilderness.
David: Right.
Seth: And there's some of the prophets that will even say it as, that, that starkly, like, "You are no longer my people."
David: Right. And another way to look at that exile, that no longer part of God's people, uh, maybe, I don't know which one is a shorthand for which, but another way to talk about it is death.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: 'Cause when you're-
Seth: That's right
David: ... when, when we, when they, when the people of God started in the Garden of Eden, and God said, "If you eat of the, this fruit, you'll surely die," right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: When they ate of the fruit, what happened? They were exiled from His presence, and then yes, then they died.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the ultimate curse, yes, is to die outside of God's presence.
Seth: Right. And so while it's great news-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that Jesus has positively given us His ability to obey the law-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what happens to the outstanding debt for the people of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... who have not always done so?
David: Right. Another way to word that question is, okay, sure, God is now allowing us to obey the law, but we've had centuries of lawbreakers.
Seth: Right.
David: Is... And, and it says that they'll all be cursed, they'll all die apart from God.
Seth: Yes.
David: How, how's God upholding His law if He's not gonna execute on these curses that He's held-
Seth: That's right
David: ... against lawbreakers?
Seth: And so when Jesus comes and lives a perfectly law-abiding life-
David: Right
Seth: ... by being faithful to the covenant-
David: He deserves all the blessings
Seth: ... He deserves the blessings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But He chooses to accept all the curses instead.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He chooses to, for a time, no longer be part of God's people.
David: Yeah. "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
Seth: He dies, as we've said before, is the other way to talk about exile. He, He dies.
David: Yeah. Outside the city walls.
Seth: Outside the city walls.
David: Exiled.
Seth: In fulfillment of what the Old Testament said, "Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree."
David: So when Jesus hung on the tree of the cross, He received the curses.
Seth: He received them all.
David: Right. Which is just, just as a side note, is another interesting way that the law works, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's another way that Christ fulfills-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God's command of the law. Anyway.
Seth: Yeah. This is what's happening-
David: Yeah [laughs]
Seth: ... on, on the cross. And so interesting, like, at the moment of His death, everything that we need to be made part of God's family-
David: Mm
Seth: ... has been done.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: He, I mean, He said, "It is finished." So it's like [laughs] you know?
David: Yeah. I guess He was right. [laughs]
Seth: It's like there's no more curses left-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 'cause He's obeyed them all.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's willing to transfer and give us His Spirit in which we'll be able to live the law perfectly.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what are we waiting for then? We're waiting for Him to rise from the dead-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to prove, validate, and confirm that He has the power and He is the delegate we need.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, 'cause only really God can do what He's, that kind of substitutionary judo that He's doing right there. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... who can, who can stand in for all of humankind and, like, do that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and absorb the curses a covenant demands that made with God? Only God can-
David: Only the covenant maker
Seth: ... only the covenant maker can do that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So in the cross, He's doing... Uh, in as he's doing that and when He rises-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from the dead, He proves that He was actually God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His resurrection is proof that He's God, and everything that the cross we hoped would be-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the cancellation of the curses-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the promise and expectation of His Spirit allowing us to obey the law is actually true. And that's what I believe the gospel according to Paul is in Galatians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the reason why we do not need to be circumcised or eat kosher in order to identify ourselves as being part of God's family.
David: Because we're obeying the law already by having faith in Jesus.
Seth: That's right.
David: 'Cause that's what it pointed to.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, and there's no fear that we're gonna go off the rails. We're not talking about just dismantling the Old Testament law, but-
Seth: Right
David: ... actually being freed from our captivity and curse under it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that we can be filled with the Spirit of Jesus to finally obey it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in a real way once and for all.
Seth: Right. And 'cause think, go back to that slave master or the guardian analogy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like you can obey the guardian's laws, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: In a sense. The wa- to whatever extent. But you can't really obey it until you have all the assets of the estate.
David: Oh, right. Sure.
Seth: It's like-
David: Uh, it's just, it's training
Seth: ... it's training.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's always practice. It's never the real thing.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: It's like a mock UN, but you're not actually in the United Nations.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So when Jesus invites us to rule the estate with Him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then fills us with His Spirit, we can actually do what the law always intended.
David: Mm.
Seth: The law was actually had a bigger vision for righteousness than just making sure people were circumcised.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right? Like, that was [laughs] like, it's like, I kinda like wanna, like, put... Jesus says it. He says, "You have to be more righteous-"
David: Than the Pharisees
Seth: "... than the Pharisees." Why?
David: Than the law obeyers.
Seth: The law o- obeyer is par excellence. Why? Because the law was only a encapsulation of what God's people could do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It wasn't everything. It wasn't this final definition of justice or righteousness or goodness.
David: It's really helpful-
Seth: Right
David: ... because I, I think the, the way I hear it often is-If it's just faith in Jesus, you're shrinking the obedience that God requires.
Seth: Ah, yes.
David: And it's like, I'm, I really wanna be a faithful Christian, so I, I think we should obey everything that He's written in, in all of the law.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're like, "No, actually, the 613 laws are actually the small version."
Seth: Right.
David: And when you get to obedience to Jesus in a spirit-filled life, it gets way bigger.
Seth: Right.
David: And wh- it's why when Jesus starts talking about how He fulfills the law, He ratchets up all the commandments. He's like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... "Oh, you've heard it said in the law-"
Seth: Don't murder
David: ... "that you shouldn't murder, but I say don't even get angry at your brother."
Seth: Right.
David: "You've heard, ah, don't get divorced and have, and have an affair. I say don't even lust after a woman."
Seth: Right.
David: It's like Jesus ratcheted it up. He's like, "The law was the small, easy version."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "My way is actually way harder [laughs] and way bigger."
Seth: As a child, you could get away with a little bit of murder.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But as a, but as the heir of an estate, you can't even get angry.
David: Right.
Seth: This is a kingdom of peace.
David: Yes.
Seth: And not even, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... the, this is a kingdom of peace all the way down to your character.
David: That's right. And so-
Seth: And that's what I'm forming in you now.
David: Right. And so to, so then to say like, "I couldn't keep the first one."
Seth: Right.
David: "How am I gonna keep the bigger one? I couldn't do the small one."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and Jesus is like, "That's why I've also ratcheted up the blessing."
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause it's not just like, "Here's my law. It's not too hard for you to understand. Here you go. Obey it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead, now I've given you my very spirit by which I obeyed the law.
Seth: Yes.
David: And now I'm going to enable you to do it, too.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He, He gives us the command and the ability to obey it-
Seth: Yes
David: ... through the Spirit. And that's good news.
Seth: And that's really great news.
David: And I think the other good news is, too, is that, um, we're also not saved by being perfect.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: Like [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: We're not saved based on how well we measure up to any number of laws or expectations. Like, we are saved by faith in Jesus, and saved in a couple of ways. Like, saved, yes, we've escaped the curse, right, of death. Like, we will actually be saved from death itself, but we're also saved from our inability to get better.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To be better.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: To do better. 'Cause under the law, we were just stuck, uh-
Seth: Wow
David: ... like with our own devices, proving over and over again that we weren't good enough. But when we have faith in Jesus and we realize that there is no condemnation, the Holy Spirit comes in us, and we actually do start to improve. Incrementally-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I will admit.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: But we do start to improve, and that's proof positive that the Holy Spirit's bearing fruit in our life. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... I am more patient than I was [laughs] like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: I'm, I'm obeying the law better-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 10 years into my walk with Jesus-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know.
Seth: And maybe to say it more strongly than I should-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but better than the Old Testament law would've demanded you do.
David: Hmm. Yeah.
Seth: Like, right?
David: Right, yes.
Seth: 'Cause like... Right? It's like-
David: Well, yeah, I'm not handing my wife a certificate of divorce.
Seth: Right. [laughs] But you're actively pursuing her in love.
David: Right, exactly.
Seth: This is evidence-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the fact that Jesus calling you to a higher level of righteousness, which He's empowered you to do.
David: Right.
Seth:Yeah.
David: That was a biblical quote, if anybody is wondering. I wasn't, I'm not thinking about-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... divorcing my wife. [laughs]
David: Okay. Well, that's Galatians, yeah?
Seth: I mean, that's as much as I [laughs]
David: As much as we can muster at the time.
Seth: I, uh, was humbled by Galatians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as like working through it, just because it feels like there's a lot on the line, and this is a big question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as we figure out in the middle, like, I don't have all the answers-
David: Right
Seth: ... to how this question works itself out in the nitty-gritty, but I do know the good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that trusting in Jesus is what identifies me as a member of God's family. There's a whole bunch of other people who are just like me, and I, we should be fighting for that.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: And Galatians has taught me at least that much.
David: Yeah. And I think, like, for everybody listening and watching, if you, like us, are still struggling with what to do with the Old Testament laws now that Jesus has come, and maybe you disagree with some of the things we've said, uh- We will probably disagree [laughs] with, I mean, like-
Seth: Yeah, I will disagree with myself three months from now. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, we, we're just trying to work it out here. I think the lesson Galatians has above that for us is what Seth's been saying, is we can be unified around the fact that wherever we stand on this argument, wherever we stand on our perspective, I think we can all be unified around the idea that we have faith in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's what ultimately Galatians is calling us to.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, uh, show us grace, especially in the comment sections. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] We love comments on these videos now. [laughs]
David: That's right, because this is not just a podcast now.
Seth: That's really funny.
David: This is also a video. So anyway, thank you all for listening. Thank you for watching, and we will see you next time. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
