Seth: [gentle music] Yeah, that's right.
David: ... where you've got this ratcheting up of Immanuel. Well, will it be God with us in the form of like, "I'll be with you to protect you-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: -or I'll be with you to judge you?" Well, yep, both of those were true for Israel's day.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: But then chapter nine, it looks like it's gonna be God with us, like, I mean, God with us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, God's really gonna come and rule, and they're saying, "Yeah, in Jesus, this is God with us. He is God-"
Seth: Mm.
David: "-in the flesh."
Seth: Yeah.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everybody, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us. We are getting into the Christmas prophecies of Isaiah. That's their real, biblical title.
Seth: Merry Christmas, y'all. [laughs]
David: Deal with it. No, we- this is the, "For unto us a Child is born," virgin birth, Immanuel.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: There's a lot of other stuff going on, but-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I just thought that would make a great opening to this episode.
Seth: Yeah. Good, good job.
David: But really, though, Seth- [laughs]
Seth: Good job.
David: We're in chapter seven of Isaiah.
Seth: Give the algorithm what it wants. [laughing]
David: How did we get here? What's on the line? Get us ready to hear some of these prophecies.
Seth: Yes. We've been tracing the theme of the servant through the Book of Isaiah. Israel is meant to be God's servant, like a prince to God the king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who extends the boundaries of God's rule and dominion and kingdom so that the whole world can receive justice and learn how to put down their weapons of war and live at peace with one another.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is who Israel is meant to be in the world, but Israel has abandoned that calling of peace and justice-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in favor of murder and corruption, and so God has said the way that Israel will be saved is through a purification.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Isaiah walks on the s- on the, to the book. Walks on- [chuckles]
David: Walks onto the book.
Seth: I was gonna say, "Walks onto the screen," but I was like, "Uh, this is not a movie. This is a book." And then-
David: So he walks onto the book.
Seth: He walks onto the book.
David: Just lean into it, man.
Seth: Uh, [chuckles] he walks onto the book, uh, [chuckles] and he becomes a living picture of what Israel should be-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in light of the God of the universe. He humbles himself. He is cleansed by God and is then commissioned on a mission.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the first person to experience Isaiah as, uh, God's commissioned servant to bring justice and peace to the world is King Ahaz of Israel.
David: Ah, okay, and I remember from our first episode, King Ahaz was really awesome. Oh, wait, no.
Seth: He was not great.
David: He was not great.
Seth: Uh, he's in the middle of a really tense political, military situation. This is how chapter seven opens up: "In the days of Ahaz, the son of Jotham, son of Uzziah, king of Judah, Rezin, the king of Syria, and Pekah, the son of Remaliah, the king of Israel, came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it but could not yet mount an attack. And when the house of David..." I mean, you know, a, a, a plural way to refer to Ahaz, "... was told this, Syria is in league with Ephraim, the heart of Ahaz and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind." [chuckles] So as we said in that first episode, Assyria is a growing threat-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to the whole Mesopotamian region. Tiglath-Pileser is swallowing up territory after territory, and Israel and Judah are in his expansion plan.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Israel does not want to be conquered by Assyria.
David: Get that.
Seth: So they have partnered with Syria-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to fight them.
David: Yep.
Seth: But they're not strong enough on their own, and so they're putting pressure on Judah, ruled by Ahaz, to join their battle.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, Ahaz doesn't wanna do this. In verse six, w- we're told what their battle plans are. He says this: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it. Let us conquer it for ourselves and set up the son of Tabeel as king in the midst of it."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so their plan is to conquer Israel, remove Ahaz as king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... put a puppet king that's more amenable to their interest on the throne, and the three nations will rebel against Assyrian power.
David: So Israel wants to conquer Judah-
Seth: That's right
David: ... put their own puppet king there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then use the Israel-Judah-
Seth: Coalition
David: ... uh, Syria coalition-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to fight Assyria.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, I understand.
Seth: That's what they wanna do.
David: But Ahaz is like, "You ain't taking my throne."
Seth: That's right.
David: "Instead, I'm going to do what?"
Seth: Well, Ahaz is in a little bit of a tricky position.
David: Yeah, sounds like it.
Seth: They- he's been... Judah and Israel have been at odds with each other ever since the civil war began, uh, several decades ago. It's in his best interest to find a way to deal with Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He doesn't wanna partner with them, but he would like to get rid of them.
David: Right.
Seth: And a really easy way to do that would be to partner with Assyria-
David: Yeah, they're taking them out anyway
Seth: ... and say, "Hey, we'll pay you for the pleasure of destroying our enemies. Uh, the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Why don't you go do that?"
David: Mm.
Seth: However, Assyria's also not a great person.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so obviously, there would be some trepidation on Judah's part, uh, of engaging with Assyria, but-
David: Yes
Seth: ... those are the options that are available to him.
David: Okay, I see, and so what they're supposed to do when you don't know what to do and you're the king of Israel, is you're supposed to not consult a medium, not consult a sorcerer, like we talked about in Deuteronomy-
Seth: That's right
David: ... but you're supposed to listen to the prophet of God.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so in verse three, the Lord said to Isaiah, "Go and meet Ahaz."
David: Okay, here we go.
Seth: So the prophet of God is going to meet Ahaz.
David: Tell him what to do.
Seth: "And you should take, uh, your son Shear-jashub with you." So God tells A- Isaiah to take his son-... Shear-jashub, and his name is really important here.
David: Okay.
Seth: His name means a remnant will return.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's, it's, it's a name that symbolizes a victory of some sort. Whatever attack will happen, that there will be survivors.
David: I see.
Seth: That, that, that's what his name means, a remnant will survive-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... a remnant will return. So Isaiah, the prophet of God, is supposed to take his son, a remnant will survive, with him to encourage the scared, shaking Ahaz.
David: I see.
Seth: Okay?
David: Yeah, and I guess the encouragement would be, "Hey, Assyria might come-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and they might do some bad things, but this is my son."
Seth: Right.
David: "Meet him. His name is A Remnant Will Survive, or-"
Seth: Yes.
David: "-A Remnant Will Return."
Seth: Yes, "And if you trust God, his name will come true."
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: Uh, and he goes, uh, "So go out and meet Ahaz, uh, you and your son Shear-jashub, and meet him at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Washer's Field."
David: Very specific location.
Seth: Very specific location, and it's important to keep that location in mind, because it'll come up again in the Book of Isaiah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Another pro- another thing's gonna happen at that very, very same location.
David: What is this location?
Seth: It is the point of strategic weakness for Jerusalem.
David: Ah.
Seth: So Jerusalem has no aqueduct supplying fresh water-
David: I see
Seth: ... during this time, anyway.
David: So if they attack this location, they can cut Judah off-
Seth: Right
David: ... from its water supply.
Seth: That's right.
David: Wow!
Seth: So the king is checking out the strategic weakness. "Can we figure out a way to get some water to the city if we become besieged? What's gonna happen?" He's doing what a king should do-
David: Yep
Seth: ... figuring out what's wrong, but he's also anxious and shaking-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... when he goes here. So Isaiah's meeting him where he's at, talking about-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... like, meeting him in the place of strategic weakness in his fear-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and encouraging him with the message that God will provide for him.
David: Mm.
Seth: And here's what Isaiah says to Ahaz. Uh, "Be careful, be quiet- " [chuckles] "... do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint," because here's what God says in verse seven and eight: "It will not stand. Their plans to attack you will not stand."
David: Mm.
Seth: "It will not come to pass, because do you know who the head of..." And here's this, like, little riddle, parable situation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he gives, "But do you know who the head of Syria is? It's just a city. It's called Damascus. You know who the d- head of Damascus is? It's just Rezin. He's just a man. Do you know who your God is?"
David: Oh, that's good.
Seth: And that's what he, that's what he's doing. He's like, "Within 65 years, Ahaz, Ephraim will be shattered from being a people. And who's the head of Ephraim? Just a city. Who's the head of the city? Just a man. So trust the God. Be firm in your faith, otherwise-
David: Trust the God of history.
Seth: ... trust the God of history, and you'll be fine."
David: Mm.
Seth: So that's the prophecy Isaiah gives him in this moment that he's come into his place of strategic weakness, shaking in fear at the conspiracies swirling around him.
David: And he's got his son, who says, "A remnant will-
Seth: Will, will return
David: ... return."
Seth: "A remnant will survive."
David: And so it sound- it seems like he's saying-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "Don't go forward with any kind of, like, rash action."
Seth: Don't go to Assyria.
David: Don't go to Syria. Uh, you know, don't be afraid that, uh, Israel's plans to overthrow your throne and put a puppet king in are gonna pan out. Just chill-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... trust God, and wait.
Seth: He'll take care of it.
David: "And even though some bad things might happen, a remnant will return-
Seth: Mm.
David: ... and in 65 years or so, whenever the men are dead who are leading these other places, I'll, I'll right everything."
Seth: That's right.
David: "I'll, I'll... And it might, it might go a little rocky for a second, but I got plans to make everything okay."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Just wait it out with me."
Seth: That's right.
David: Which is a hard call, to be fair.
Seth: It's... I mean, it's very hard.
David: That's not an easy command to follow.
Seth: No.
David: It's like, war's at your doorstep-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... don't do anything.
Seth: Yep, yep.
David: That's hard.
Seth: It's super hard.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, uh, God recognizes that it's hard-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... and he offers Ahaz a sign.
David: Okay.
Seth: So verse 10, "And the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 'Ask for a sign from me. Let it be as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven.'"
David: Whoa!
Seth: "Ask for anything you want as proof-
David: Right
Seth: ... that I will save you from your threat, and I will give it to you."
David: What, what did he... I mean, I would ask for, like, a, a flying car or something. What did he ask for?
Seth: Uh, Ahaz says-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... "I will not ask."
David: What? Oh, like, he doesn't wanna put God to the test? Is he like-
Seth: He's- that's what he says.
David: Oh, he's trying to be like, "All holier than thou."
Seth: He's b- it's a false piety. [laughs]
David: Ah.
Seth: It's definitely a false piety.
David: I bet it's because he's like, "Well, if God then proves me- proves to me that he's trustworthy, then I totally have to follow his-"
Seth: Well, that's exactly right.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: It's, it's very likely that he's already sent emissaries to Tiglath-Pileser.
David: It's like-
Seth: Assyrian help is on the way. He doesn't want this prophet meddling. He, like, he just wants to do what he wants to do. "I've already made my decision. I'm the king. I don't need God to tell me what to do. Oh, don't, don't bother, God, I don't need a sign from you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I don't need a sign from him."
David: Oh, that's hilarious and sad.
Seth: Uh, and, and that, that understanding of this false piety is confirmed in the next verse.
David: Okay.
Seth: Isaiah responds, "Well, hear this then, O house of David: Is it too little for you to weary men? Must you weary God as well?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: "Your false piety is so tiresome. Let's get over it. Like, let's get past this. Here, I'm gonna give you a sign anyway." And so it's in this tone, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and shall call his name Immanuel." So I just wanna, like, set that up.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like we have a king who's being insincere. God is responding in frustration and anger-
David: Mm
Seth: ... towards this insincere king, and promises him Immanuel as a sign that his enemies will be dealt with in, in due time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Isn't that interesting? I just wanna, like-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: 'Cause normally, when the Immanuel prophecies are given, it's all rainbows.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: And I'm like, let's-
David: I just-
Seth: I just wanna give it some funk to the hist-
David: Some funk! [laughs]
Seth: ... the his- historical situation. Like, it's a, it's a weird situation that's going on right now.
David: It really is, yeah, and God's doing it to show-... I know you haven't asked for a sign. You're trying to say you don't need me, you don't need my words, you don't want me to be proved right. I'm gonna prove to you that I am gonna be proved right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, but the w- the sign God chooses is a little strange to me.
Seth: Yes.
David: Why the virgin-
Seth: Yes
David: ... conceiving a son, and why is his name called Immanuel?
Seth: Let me, let me read the rest of the prophecy-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because it kind of expands it. "So therefore, here's the, the sign that God will give you. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and, and shall call his name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse evil and choose good. But before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted." So the prophecy, he's saying, is before this child is grown up-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and-
David: Reaches an age of accountability
Seth: ... something like that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, it's r- choosing evil and choosing good is also how Solomon's reign is described.
David: Yep.
Seth: So it could just mean the asce- the ascension to a throne, or-
David: Oh, so before this son becomes king?
Seth: Potentially.
David: Okay.
Seth: So be- before this person is able to rule or exercise power-
David: So is this Ahaz's son?
Seth: We'll get there.
David: All right, all right, all right.
Seth: We'll get there.
David: Fine, fine, fine, fine.
Seth: So, like, before that happens, this problem will be dealt with. That's the first step.
David: Oh, so it's like pretty soon, it seems.
Seth: Pretty soon.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, "The Lord... But," verse 17, "the Lord will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: So that's the civil war.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The king of Assyria is coming. So this sign of Immanuel means two things. It means that this problem with Syria and Israel will go away, and it means that Assyria will come and invade Israel, too.
David: Oh, because Immanuel means God with us.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so I will be with you to protect you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but when I also come to you-
Seth: I will come to judge you
David: ... against you. Yeah.
Seth: I will come to judge you.
David: Oh, man. Yeah.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: For, for God to be with us does mean-
Seth: It means both of those things
David: ... both things, yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: It's true
Seth: ... think about how Isaiah, even Isaiah's moment in, in the temple.
David: In the throne room, yep.
Seth: God was with him in the throne room.
David: And woe is me.
Seth: And woe is me.
David: But also, that I'm forgiven, and everything's-
Seth: But I'm sent out.
David: It's so like-
Seth: These are great.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as I said in the very first episode, those ideas of judgment and mercy are stacked super tightly on top of each other.
David: In form attention.
Seth: And even right here in the Immanuel prophecy, God being with us-
David: Is only-
Seth: ... isn't just a good thing
David: ... salvation. It is a good thing.
Seth: It-
David: It's only a good thing. It's only a good thing as a moral category. [chuckles]
Seth: Uh, God being with us?
David: God being with us.
Seth: Uh-
David: But it not, it's not good-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for Ahaz. [chuckles]
Seth: Not good for Ahaz.
David: It's good for Israel.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that is the Immanuel prophecy.
David: Okay.
Seth: This- it's a sign to Ahaz in particular-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that before a child is born and grows to a certain age, the Syrian conflict will fall in his favor-
David: And-
Seth: ... and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Assyria will come and threaten Israel.
David: Yes, that God will come against him.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. But that also God will be with maybe this child or something. Is that maybe-
Seth: The child's name is Immanuel.
David: The kid's name is Immanuel.
Seth: The kid's name is Immanuel.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: So who's the virgin? Who's the kid?
Seth: [chuckles] Yes. So this is, this is the big debate-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in Isaiah.
David: That's why I asked it. [chuckles]
Seth: Let me give a survey of the options.
David: Okay.
Seth: A Jewish tradition would say that this child is Hezekiah.
David: Right.
Seth: And there's good reasons to think that. We have some kingly language t- here-
David: Yep
Seth: ... before he knows good-
David: Right and wrong, yep
Seth: ... and knows evil. We know that historically, that the Assyrian Empire does come against Jerusalem and Judah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... during Hezekiah's reign.
David: Right.
Seth: And God rescues them-
David: Yep
Seth: ... during that time.
David: He was with them.
Seth: He was with them, and this prophecy is given to Ahaz in verse 13: "Hear then, O house of David."
David: Right.
Seth: So there's also a sense that it seems to be directed towards, like, the David-
David: His own lineage
Seth: ... the Davidic li- dynasty, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: So potentially-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Hezekiah.
David: And virgin doesn't have to mean only a w- a woman who's never known a man in that sense.
Seth: That's right. So it- there's two words in Hebrew-
David: Right
Seth: ... that are transl- that could, uh, here. One is, like, almah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which can mean, like, a maiden or a person of marriage, marriageable age-
David: Yep
Seth: ... or sexual maturity.
David: El- an eligible woman.
Seth: An eligible woman. Um, it imply- strongly implies-
David: Implies
Seth: ... virginity.
David: That's right.
Seth: But there is a word for virgin, and it's called betulah.
David: Yep.
Seth: But that's not used here.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so it is a strange word choice.
David: It could be, "Your next wife-
Seth: It could be-
David: ... will bear you a child."
Seth: It could mean that.
David: "And it'll- you'll be the first man she's known."
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: "But the first child she bears will be this child."
Seth: So let me just, like, zoom out a little bit here. So, uh, we just said, like, it could potentially be Hezekiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the reason why that would make sense with the phrase virgin is it could be referring to Ahaz's wife or soon-to-be wife-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who will, will have that child. That's possible.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's possible. However, there's also good reason to think that it could refer to Isaiah's son.
David: Yes.
Seth: 'Cause in the very next chapter, Isaiah's going to have a son named Mahershalalhashbaz.
David: Yep.
Seth: And all the same language used to describe-
David: The Immanuel son
Seth: ... the Immanuel son is used to describe Isaiah's son.
David: Yep.
Seth: So if you just jump over to, uh, chapter 8, it says this: "Then the Lord said to me, 'Take a large tablet and write on it common characters.'" So the idea here is Isaiah gave one prophecy specifically to Ahaz, and now he's making kind of a public statement about this same sign. "Take a large tablet. Write on it in common characters." There's something more public about the nature of this sign.
David: Yep.
Seth: "And write on it, 'Belonging to Mahershalal- [chuckles] Mahershalalhashbaz.'"
David: Which my Hebrew professor-
Seth: Yes?
David: ... he, he promised an A, automatic A, to anyone in his class who named their child this legally.
Seth: That's amazing. [laughing]
David: No, I- to this day, I don't know anybody who's taken him up on it, but I was thinking about it.
Seth: That's a great... That's a great way to get an A.
David: [chuckles] That's right.
Seth: Uh-
David: 'Cause it means quick to the plunder, or-
Seth: Yeah, it's-
David: ... swift to the spoil or something like that?
Seth: Yeah, it means, like, quick to plunder, swift to spoil.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, so which is interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which makes a little- like, it seems to interpret God with us in a negative sense.... Yep. Right?
David: Sure.
Seth: God is with us to judge us.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, and so this-
David: He'll be quick to dethrone.
Seth: Yes, that's right. And so anyway, verse three, and so Isaiah goes to the prophetess, his wife. Uh-
David: Okay, yep.
Seth: Um, and she conceived and bore a son. Same language used just a chapter before, "And the Lord said to me, 'Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.'" And then he has a very similar statement here about, like, when he comes of age. "For before the boy knows how to cry 'My father or my mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the sign of Mahershalalhashbaz, like, before he grows up, the Syrian conflict will be dealt with.
David: Yep, and it makes sense, too, that he had one son there-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as a prophetic promise-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to Ahaz.
Seth: She- Shear-jashub?
David: Yep.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then since he denied the promise of that son-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... then there's another son whose name brings a punishment.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that-
Seth: That does make sense
David: ... that makes sense.
Seth: That makes sense.
David: Are we talking to each other?
Seth: Yes, that's right. And then he goes on in verse five and says, "The Lord spoke to me again: 'Because this people has refused the waters of Shiloh that flow gently...'" And the idea here is the, the gentle waters of trusting in God and His provision for the land.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, right? " 'And rejoice over Rezin, the son of Remaliah. Therefore, behold, the Lord is bringing up against them the waters of the River, mighty and many, the king of Assyria, and all of his glory.' " So this name, Mahershalalhashbaz, means the end of the Israel-Syrian coalition and an invasion of Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... as well. So it's interesting, and then he just, a couple verses down, he says this in verse eight, "This invasion by Assyria will reach up to the neck of Judah, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel." So-
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? So it's like we have a repetition of the God with us-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... name, Immanuel, but now it's being used to refer to Judah, and then there's another poetic prophecy that describes the coming destruction of Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing. Speak a word, but it will not stand, for God is with us."
David: Mm.
Seth: So, and again, God is with us, and that's a pun that time, but-
David: Yep
Seth: ... same idea. So-
David: God is against us.
Seth: God is against...
David: In a sense.
Seth: So what, we have two options: Hezekiah, Mahershalalhashbaz is another option, but also notice how vague and strange the Immanuel name is being used.
David: Yes.
Seth: When the Immanuel prophecy is given, the father is not mentioned.
David: Right.
Seth: Only-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the maiden-ness of the mother-
David: Right
Seth: ... is mentioned.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the fact that the mother names the child is mentioned, but the father isn't mentioned.
David: Mm.
Seth: Strange.
David: Strange.
Seth: Um, a little bit later, Judah is called Immanuel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then a pun comes in later that God is with them to destroy.
David: Yes.
Seth: So I'm like-
David: It's being used very differently.
Seth: It's being used weirdly, and so I think almost everybody that I've read has said, like, "Hey, I think we can make some good guesses here about the nature of this person, but also just notice the ambiguity of the prophecy."
David: Mm.
Seth: There is something here that it seems to have a fuller meaning than simply a son within Ahaz's lifetime. Because it has to be a son within Ahaz's lifetime for it to be a sign to Ahaz.
David: That's right, yep.
Seth: It has to be a sign that the Assyrian conflict will end soon. But it's also worded in such a way that it seems to mean far more than that.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because, as Matthew points out in Matthew chapter 4, the virginal quality of this woman is really highlighted.
David: Yes.
Seth: And it, and-
David: Because it's kind of overlooked-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in both of these cases.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, it's like either Ahaz would have had to take a new maiden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to make this make sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, because, uh, Isaiah has already had a, a child with the prophetess, his wife.
Seth: That's right.
David: So she's not a maiden, a virgin.
Seth: Right.
David: So that... So it's like-
Seth: It just depends. The, the word has such, like, a broad-
David: It does
Seth: ... connotation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could just mean sexual maturity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It impl- it strongly implies virginity.
David: But it, but it could have this meaning of a woman able to bear a child.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep.
Seth: So one commentator I read was just- just simply said, "Perhaps Isaiah's chosen this because of its depth of meaning."
David: Yes.
Seth: He's using it because it does apply.
David: Yep, he could have used eligible woman.
Seth: Eligible, right. He-
David: He could have used strictly virgin.
Seth: But he doesn't do this because he knows that what he's doing in this moment isn't simply giving a prophecy to Ahaz.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's giving a prophecy for how God deals with all His servants-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and all His people. Remember, we have Isaiah functioning as this microcosm of Israel as a whole, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And now we have Ahaz standing in for Israel as the whole. He's the king.
David: Yep.
Seth: He represents all his people, and by his decisions, the whole nation rises or falls. And so when he listens to God's Word or not, the whole nation follows suit. And so what happens to Ahaz has ripple effects throughout generations and generations of Israelite history.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so it would make sense that the prophecies given to Ahaz aren't simply for him personally, but for all Israel as well-
David: True, yep
Seth: ... all servants of God. So anyway, I, I say all this to just complexify our picture of it a little bit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I, I don't know what you're hearing here.
David: Well, I'm also just interested in this idea because of its, uh, I don't know, repeatability-
Seth: Yes
David: ... its generalization, a- and, and the fact that it seems to be almost repeated even in the story.
Seth: Yep.
David: Where it's like, oh, this already is taking on new meaning within-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the next chapter and a half.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's pretty incredible.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it, it does seem to be like, okay, when God's king doesn't listen to His voice, God always has a sign that He can show, a- and it is by making someone fruitful and multiply-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to bring Himself-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to His people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so you're like, "Okay, Ahaz, you're, you're giving up the-
Seth: Yes
David: ... servant theme of being fruitful and multiplying in the way I want you to."
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, you're not... And by that, I mean not that he's not having kids, but he's not protecting the remnant as he was supposed to by just stopping and listening to God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's not bringing shalom into the chaos.
Seth: Yes.
David: ... and so God says, "So therefore, I will be fruitful and multiply on your behalf. I'll take a virgin-
Seth: Mm.
David: -and I don't need you for that."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And I will bring myself to you through her."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that could be through a new faithful son, like Hezekiah, who does listen.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It could be through the prophetic utterance of, um, of a prophetic child-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in Maher- Mar Sharla Hash Baz.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: I think. Uh, you, you pronounce it differently than I do-
Seth: [laughs]
David: -so I'm, like, having to, like, find your pronunciation of it. Uh, or, or it could just be through the word of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which is described as a seed in other places-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a fruit-bearing, multiplying-
Seth: Yes
David: ... germinating thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it brings condemnation. And so it j- it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it is like this repeatable prophetic thing-
Seth: Right
David: ... that God's able to bring something out of disobedience.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't know.
Seth: Yeah, I think what I kept hearing there was like-
David: Getting kind of mystical. [chuckles]
Seth: There was... People talk about prophetic horizons.
David: Mm.
Seth: If you heard this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it's like a prophet sees something in the distance that looks like a mountain, but when you get up close, it's actually five mountains-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they were just from the distance you, you saw it. So I think what might be happening here is Isaiah sees in the distance a mountain, a child being born.
David: Yes.
Seth: Ahaz, this is a sign to you, that this conflict will, will end quickly. But it's also a sign for future generations-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that God, through the birth of a child, will protect his people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, and provide for them, and jud- judge evil and be compassionate towards the remnant.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I think that's what the child is supposed to, to, to function as.
David: That's right.
Seth: And I think it's really interesting, uh, what we... w- we need to move on from this because there's even- there's another child mentioned here in this prophecy with Ahaz.
David: Oh.
Seth: So Isaiah, after having given him the name of Immanuel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the sign of Mahershalalhashbaz, he goes on to describe, in deep detail, the Assyrian invasion and the coming darkness that will be associated with that.
David: Mm.
Seth: But in chapter nine, he says this: "But there will be no gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former times, he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter times he has made glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations." This is a- another phrase picked up with the gospel writers. But then he says this, this is a really famous passage: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. Those who dwell in a land of deep darkness, on them a light has shone." And then verse six, "For to us a child is born, and to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. And in the increase of his government, there will be no end. On the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore, the zeal of the Lord will do this." So Isaiah here has another prophecy of another child in his conversation about the coming Assyrian crisis-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and how it will ultimately be resolved. And so I think that it's important to recognize, like, there's this ambiguity in how the Syrian- the Israel-Syrian coalition will affect Ahaz.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Hey, there's a, there's a sign for you here in this moment, but there's a bigger conflict coming, this conflict with Assyria, and that prophecy of the child, the child Immanuel, the child Maholashashbaz, and then this other child is for you, too." I don't know if I'm explaining this the way that I need to be explaining it, but Isaiah's historic-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... understanding of what will happen seems to be, like-
David: Built around children
Seth: ... built around children.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And different children, or perhaps the same child-
David: Perhaps the same child, yep
Seth: ... but it's, it's not clear is the point-
David: No, right
Seth: ... of these things.
David: Yep.
Seth: But they're stacking on top of each other, and Isaiah seems to imagine that in the future, Israel's salvation will hang on the birth of a child.
David: Yeah, which makes a ton of sense with the theme of the servant we've set up, that it's how will Eden go out into the world?
Seth: Oh, yes.
David: By being fruitful and multiplying.
Seth: Yes.
David: By kids being born.
Seth: Like-
David: That's always been the story-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is how's the kingdom gonna grow? Through children.
Seth: Mm. Yes.
David: And so that doesn't seem to be that strange to the world of Isaiah you've introduced me to.
Seth: Yes.
David: I'm actually kind of expecting it.
Seth: Yeah, that's interesting. I, I have been [chuckles] studying this for, like, 30-
David: Forest for the trees [laughs]
Seth: ... so, so long, I'd not even thought about that-
David: [chuckles]
Seth: ... how the promise of a child should be expected.
David: Yeah, it's being fruitful and multiplying.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: So cool, that makes sense. Um, but i- and, and, and it's also makes sense that there, there's been promises given to, we haven't talked about this yet, but promises given to David's line-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, that through his line, a king will come.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So again, being fruitful and multiplying through David's line, there's going to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a king that comes, and good things are gonna happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, Ahaz is clearly not that king. We need a king who brings God's kingdom with us. We need an Immanuel-type king-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, who knows right from wrong, and who can lead his people, and that king is described here in what you just read-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that he's gonna be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Hold on, that Immanuel thing is getting real literal, real fast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it sounds like this son who's gonna be born is going to take on the name of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause who can be called Everlasting Father-
Seth: But God himself
David: ... and Mighty God, but God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... himself?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so this-
Seth: This doesn't feel like it could res- be any human child.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yes.
David: It seems like God with us, Immanuel, is going to take on a very literal-
Seth: Yes
David: ... form.
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's kind of amplifying it.
Seth: Yes.
David: And again, kind of adding more ambiguity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that casts it again into the future.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think this is what the gospel writers end up seeing.
David: Yes.
Seth: So in Matthew 4, it quotes the first verses, uh, of chapter nine, about the land of Naphtali and the Galilee of the nations.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, Jesus... They say Jesus is the one.... that Isaiah's talking about-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: -here in Isaiah, chapter 9. Matthew, chapter 1, he calls Jesus Emmanuel-
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: -God with us. The gospel writers are seeing in Isaiah's prophecies an ultimate fulfillment-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in who Jesus came to be. He is the ultimate promised son from the line of David-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who will come and be with his people, to purify them of their evil, and transform them, and cleanse them, and make them the servants-
David: Yes
Seth: -they were always meant to be in the world.
David: And he does that by ratcheting up both phrases from Isaiah 7, both the Emmanuel word and the word virgin.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Where you've got this ratcheting up of Emmanuel. Well, will it be God with us in the form of, like, "I'll be with you to protect you"-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: -or, "I'll be with you to judge you?" Well, yep, both of those were true for Israel's day.
Seth: Yeah. Yes.
David: But then, chapter 9, it looks like it's gonna be God with us, like, I mean, God with us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, God's really gonna come and rule, and they're saying, "Yeah, in Jesus, this is God with us. He is God in the flesh."
Seth: Yes.
David: But he was also born of a virgin, not just a woman able to bear a child-
Seth: But an actual person
David: ... but an actual person who's never known a man.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so everything get rat- gets ratcheted up. Why? To do the same thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Isaiah's trying to do to Ahaz-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is to give a sign.
Seth: Yes.
David: To prove that what God's prophet says is true.
Seth: That's right.
David: And now God's prophet is Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: And all of this is coming true hundreds of years later to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this man is who everyone claims he is-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and who he claims he is. [gentle music]
Seth: I think it's interesting that we have Jesus being called Emmanuel as being a sign for us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because that would mean that as we read about the sign of Emmanuel in the Book of Matthew, that ma- puts us in the position of Ahaz-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a potential servant of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who is called to respond in a, a correct way to the sign in front of us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Will we trust that God can save through gentleness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... prayer, through the birth of a child?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or are we going to-
David: Take it into our own hands?
Seth: Yeah, trust our military-
David: Yep
Seth: ... trust conspiracy theories, trust the politics of the day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to force salvation for ourselves?
David: Yes.
Seth: And so, yeah, like, we're in the position of Ahaz, in that sense.
David: Exactly, and we're being asked to do the same thing Ahaz was asked to do: to wait.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I know the world around you is swirling with chaos, and I know you might actually die because of that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And those close to you might die as well. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the land might be scorched, but a remnant will return-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I will raise you up out of the ground like a wild shoot from a stump.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I will resurrect you, and I'm gonna prove that to you by giving-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you Emmanuel through a virgin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And also by letting him die and resurrecting him as well [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]
David: But, you know.
Seth: We'll get there. [laughs]
David: That too. But yeah, that's incredible. We're being asked to do the same thing, to, to wait patiently-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for the Lord.
Seth: Yes, and I think the original readers of Isaiah would've understood that Ahaz is a negative example of who they're meant to be.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Isaiah is the servant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... a good servant. We should be like Isaiah. Ahaz, bad servant. Don't be like Ahaz. So this first section goes all the way through chapter 39.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we get another servant.
David: Yes.
Seth: Hezekiah-
David: Right
Seth: ... another king, tested-
David: Right
Seth: ... about whether or not he'll trust God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And really fascinatingly, so let's just explain the history once more. So Ahaz fails to listen to God. Israel and Syria are carted off by the Assyrian superpower, just as God foretold. Ahaz tries his best to make peace with, uh, Assyria, but he ends up just selling the soul of Israel in the process.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So he pays off Assyria for military assistance. They come down, take care of Israel and Syria for him, and then the king, Tiglath-Pileser, invites Ahaz to the ruined city of Damascus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that he's just conquered. Together, they worship the Assyrian gods.
David: Oh, gosh.
Seth: And then in deference to their new, uh, rescuer, their new redeemer, Ahaz makes a, a sketch of the altar to the Assyrian gods in, uh, Damascus, sends it back to Jerusalem, and replaces the altar in Jerusalem that was meant to worship God with the altar to the Assyrian gods.
David: Oh, man, so he's not... So Moses was a servant of God-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who heard and saw what he was supposed to see.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then reported that back.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they did it on Earth as in Heaven.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay?
Seth: Yes.
David: He saw the plans for the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they built the temple.
Seth: Yes.
David: Here, this servant is an anti-servant who sees the plan for an anti-temple-
Seth: Oh, wow. Yes
David: ... and an anti-altar, and then builds it here on Earth as it was in Assyria's heaven.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, he is flipping the servant paradigm on its head.
Seth: Yeah, he's, he's-
David: Gah! [chuckles]
Seth: And as a result, Judah starts to just descend into chaos.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Assyria, just like Isaiah said, backstabs Israel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and starts invading Judah.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so a couple Assyrian kings die, but in the process, a new king, Sennacherib, takes the throne.
David: Right.
Seth: And he leads this massive invasion into Israel, takes up 46 of Judah's cities, and camps out in Lake Kish, and sends a emissary to threaten the new king, uh, Ahaz's son.
David: Hezekiah.
Seth: Hezekiah.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's where the story picks up again-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in, uh, chapter 37.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or 36.
David: Good. So a new threat comes to Hezekiah. "Assyria is gonna come wipe you out."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Uh, you don't stand a chance. We've wiped out city after city after city, and what is little, tiny Jerusalem now to the mighty army of Assyria? So Hezekiah, what are you gonna do?"
Seth: That's right.
David: "Are you gonna talk to God's prophet again?"
Seth: Right, and guess... So this emissary comes, and he stands at a very specific location in Israel.... and the king of Assyria sent the Rabshakeh, which is the Syrian word for emissary-
David: Okay.
Seth: The Rabshakeh from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem with a great army. And he stood by the conduit of the upper pool on the highway of the Washer's Field.
David: This is the same little aqu- like, like, water source thing we talked about earlier.
Seth: It's the same place that Ahaz was, like, examining when the prophecy of Immanuel came.
David: Okay, here we go.
Seth: And so now the Assyrian king comes, and he begins to mock Israel's God. He's like, "Hey, obviously, Assyria's gods are greater than Israel's gods. We've trampled everybody in our path."
David: Right.
Seth: "Your God is no one. Our gods are the best. You should give up now. Your God will not save you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then really fascinatingly, he starts to pull on all these promises from the Torah about, like, living under your own vine and fig tree and living in the land of milk and honey. Like, he's pulling promises from God's own scripture, and saying, "All that's available to you through our gods-
David: Oh, man
Seth: ... not yours."
David: Oh, geez.
Seth: And so it's being given to that same place where the prophecy of Immanuel was given, and that's where Hezekiah has this kind of, like, fatal choice.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Will he trust God, or will he trust some other source of power?
David: And the stakes are so much higher here because Ahaz had control of his water source.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, this critical point of failure, he had control of it whenever he was making his decision.
Seth: Hezekiah did?
David: No, Ahaz did.
Seth: Well-
David: Because... But I'm just saying-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... now it's interesting that now the armies are at the critical point of failure-
Seth: Yes
David: ... at the water source.
Seth: Well, actually, there's a little bit more history here-
David: Okay
Seth: ... about the aqueduct, which is-
David: Okay
Seth: ... really funny. Hezekiah actually fixes this problem.
David: Oh, he learned from his dad.
Seth: He learned from his father and actually builds an aqueduct system so that Jerusalem could withstand a siege.
David: I see, so it's not as important of a military spot. It's more of a-
Seth: But potentially, he's in, in a better place to trust his own efforts.
David: I understand.
Seth: Right? He-
David: They have less critical points of failure.
Seth: They have less critical points of failure due to his strategic thinking-
David: I see
Seth: ... and foresight. Well, anyway, I was just like-
David: Okay. No, that's interesting.
Seth: And, and-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the Bible makes- he talks about this, and how, how he builds this special aqueduct-
David: Aqueduct
Seth: ... and, I mean, it's crazy.
David: Crazy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. All right, so critical, fatal decision-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that he has to make here. Does Isaiah come and talk to him as well?
Seth: Um, Isaiah does.
David: Okay, I would figure.
Seth: Isaiah does. Here's what Isaiah says in chapter 37, "Say this to your master: 'Do not be afraid because of the words that you have heard, with which the young men of the king of Assyria have reviled me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, so that he shall hear a rumor and return to his own land, and I will make him fall by the sword in his own land.'"
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's like, "Okay, don't worry about it."
David: I got it.
Seth: "I'm gonna make him go away, and he'll die back home."
David: Okay.
Seth: "That's what's gonna happen-
David: Yep.
Seth: ... so trust me." And then the Rabshakeh, the emissary, returns after Isaiah says this. He returns back to Lachish.
David: Uh-huh. Yep.
Seth: And he finds that the king of Assyria actually went back to his homeland, and guess what happens while he's back home, worshiping his own gods that are so much better than Israel's gods? He dies there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His sons, uh, assassinate him.
David: Yeah, it makes sense. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles] It makes sense. So he dies back home, just like Isaiah said.
David: Which is just, just to throw a bone in there-
Seth: Oh
David: ... which is just interesting-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that the anti-servants die by their offsprings, whereas the servants live through their offsprings.
Seth: Oh, that's fascinating.
David: It's just interesting.
Seth: Yeah, that's really fascinating.
David: Okay, just couldn't help myself there.
Seth: So even though that that's happened, the siege against Jerusalem is ongoing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so there's still a military threat, even though Sennacherib is-
David: Sure
Seth: ... away-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and he's about to die.
David: But it's kinda like a down payment on Isaiah's promise. That, like, "Look, see?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Sennacherib's gone."
Seth: He's gone.
David: "So don't worry about the army."
Seth: Yeah, don't worry about the army. But it's in this moment that he's still has got to figure out what to do.
David: Totally.
Seth: And so this is where he gets down on his knees and goes to the temple, and he prays.
David: Okay, putting himself similarly in a position of Isaiah-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in chapter six.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, yep.
Seth: He's acting like Isaiah. He's praying, and this is what he says, "Truly, O Lord, the kings of Assyria have laid waste to all the nations and their lands and have cast their gods into the fire. But that's because they were no gods, but just the work of men's hands, woods, and stone. That's why they were destroyed."
David: Mm.
Seth: "So now, O Lord, our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone are the Lord." So, so here, what he's doing here, he's adopting the role of servant. He goes to the temple like Isaiah did. He admits the situation in front of him. He confesses that God alone is God, and that through his victory, the whole world will know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Israel is the place of God's dwelling and-
David: Mm
Seth: ... kingdom and dominion. He's adopting the role of servant the way Ahaz did not.
David: Right.
Seth: And then guess what happens? 185,000 Assyrians die that night.
David: A cleansing.
Seth: A cleansing happens of the enemies of God's people.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Israel is restored simply by-
David: Trusting
Seth: ... Isaiah waiting and praying.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yep.
David: That's exactly right.
Seth: Mm.
David: So we get this mirror image, again, proving that Isaiah is the true prophet-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who speaks for the God of history.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that if you listen to God's voice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as the remnant should-
Seth: Yes
David: ... He's got your back.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And if you don't, and you rebel, opposite. [chuckles]
Seth: The opposite.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The opposite happens.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, and so is that how this section ends?
Seth: It's actually not how it ends.
David: Okay.
Seth: Isaiah inserts a story from Hezekiah's past-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... at the very end of the narrative.
David: Okay.
Seth: So there's this great moment of military victory. Isaiah trusts God in the midst of all this, but then he adds two chapters, chapters 38 and 39, that occurred sometime during the whole Assyrian siege.
David: Okay.
Seth: So at one point in time, Hezekiah gets really, really sick.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he's on his deathbed, and he prays and asks God for m- more life. Do you remember?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Do you remember this story?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he asks God to save him, and God grants him 15 more years of life.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And so we get this story. Hezekiah is raised up from his deathbed simply because he asked God in faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So we have this interesting story of resurrection-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... kind of like appended to the end of Hezekiah's story.
David: Mm.
Seth: We're about to transition to a new section of the book.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so what we've seen so far are these three representative servants, Isaiah, Ahaz, and Hezekiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Ahaz has had his moment of historical fall.
David: Yep.
Seth: Hezekiah has had his moment of historical liberation, but now we're getting something, an addendum that happened in the past. Isaiah's cluing us in here something symbolic for all of Israel's happening.
David: Right.
Seth: There's something about Hezekiah's death and resurrection, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... see, like, you know-
David: Yes
Seth: ... resurrection from his deathbed.
David: Sickbed, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Seth: That is going to be important for Israel's history.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Israel might get sick in the future, but-
David: Right
Seth: ... God will raise them up.
David: Which makes sense. It's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... Isaiah's talked about a time that's gonna come, where the land is scorched, and there's nothing left-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but a stump, and even those get scorched.
Seth: Yes.
David: But then, resurrection.
Seth: That's right.
David: Life, shoots come up.
Seth: And what's really interesting, this little section, remember how Ahaz was told to ask for a sign?
David: Yes.
Seth: Hezekiah's told to ask for a sign during this time.
David: In the sixth section?
Seth: In, while, while he's sick.
David: Okay.
Seth: And God, God gives it to him. So it's really interesting.
David: What's the sign that time?
Seth: The, the sign here is, um-
David: Another kid? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Another kid. Uh, uh, it's the- it's, it's a sundial.
David: A sundial.
Seth: It says, uh, "This shall be the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do this thing that he's promised," which is, you know-
David: Raise you up.
Seth: ... I raise you up. Uh, "Behold, I will make the shadow cast by the declining sun on the dial of Ahaz turn back 10 steps."
David: Whoa!
Seth: So presumably, Ahaz made a sundial.
David: So Jesus, God or God makes it time travel.
Seth: It... Yeah, either time travel or just [laughs] moves the shadow, like, backwards on the dial. Um, and what's really interesting, it's like Ahaz's name pops up here in the story.
David: Right.
Seth: So it seems to be, like, this symbolic moment.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: It's like Ahaz's faithlessness foretold the fall of Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And now-
David: Hezekiah's faithfulness
Seth: ... Hezekiah's faithfulness is foretelling the resurrection of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is really interesting. But Israel's also, like, doing awesome right now.
David: Yeah, but why would they need resurrection?
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause it looks like they might get sick soon.
Seth: Right, and that's what the last chapter of this section does. Isaiah, uh, 39 recalls the story when Hezekiah, around the time that he got sick, invites, uh, envoys from Babylon-
David: Right
Seth: ... to come into the temple court, and he kind of gives them a tour of all of the wealth of Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: And presumably, God does not think well of this because he's trying to curry some sort of favor with Babylon against his Assyrian oppressors.
David: He's trusting man instead of God again-
Seth: That's right
David: ... just like his dad did.
Seth: That's right. And at the very end of this little section in Isaiah 39, Isaiah comes back on the scene, and he says this to Hezekiah: "Hear the word of the Lord of hosts. 'Behold, the days are coming when all that is in your house, and that which your fathers have stored up till this day, shall be carried off to Babylon. Nothing shall be left,' says the Lord, 'and some of your own sons, who will come from you, whom you will father, will be taken away, and they shall be eunuchs-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the palace of the king of Babylon.'"
David: Oh, man.
Seth: So we have this, like, almost, like, the ending of the Immanuel prophecy, it seems.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, "Your sons will be infertile-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will be castrated."
David: No more fruitful and multiplying.
Seth: No more fruitful and multiplying, so-
David: You're gonna need a virgin to give birth. [laughs]
Seth: Vir- [laughs] Yes! That, that's exactly right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Something dramatic is gonna have to happen-
David: Yeah [laughs]
Seth: ... once Babylon comes in.
David: That's r- that's really interesting to me, the eunuch thing at the end of this section-
Seth: And-
David: ... tying back to the virgin thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's the most interesting-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because, like, well, why do you need a virgin to give birth? Like, that just kinda seems like a flex.
Seth: Right.
David: But here, it makes sense.
Seth: It's like Hezekiah's line is about to end.
David: And so we're gonna need God with us to come through a different means. Oh, we had that virgin prophecy! Good.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: Oh, that's fascinating.
Seth: Isn't that fascinating? And I think this is the deathbed renewal thing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like the line is about to end.
David: How do you bring life from death?
Seth: But God can raise it up.
David: Yes.
Seth: God can raise it up again.
David: And you get kids from eunuchs.
Seth: And so it's, this is how the first section-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of Isaiah ends-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with this, Hezekiah, this faithful servant, who's trusting in God's promise, extends the blessing of God's people. The nations begin to recognize that Israel is the place of justice and the home of God himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause remember, Assyria is coming in, bragging about how great their gods are.
David: Right.
Seth: And then God proves he's a greater god than-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the gods of the world. Um, however, Hezekiah, in the last moments of his life, invites a bigger baddie into Israel's life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and seems to invite a bigger problem. Well, if that's true, if God's the God of history, and if God can save us, and he wants us to be his servants, will that be true if Babylon wipes us out?
David: Right.
Seth: Will that be true if the line of kings ends forever-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if they all become eunuchs? And that's what the next section of the book's about. Will God's promises continue if everything we know, the line of David-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the promise of God, all end? Will that still be true?
David: I see.
Seth: And Isaiah's saying, "Yes, it will be."
David: So how do we land this all in the life of Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... with Ahaz and Hezekiah?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, what should all of this get us to think about?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm.
David: Um, 'cause the only thing I can, like, jump to right now-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is, like, Jesus is the faithful king-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who always listens to God, does his, does his work, and therefore is able to bring in a kingdom of servants-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... into the world.
Seth: Bring peace and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... blessing to the world.
David: But he does that knowing that there will be a time of death-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... of eunuchizing, [laughs] you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... things. Uh, he is cut off from Israel. He's cut off from the land of the living.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He goes to the dead.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: Um, but he's raised.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He trusts in this kind of promise, um, and proves to be the servant who trusts God and waits, even when death is at his doorstep, um, and therefore, can be the one who ushers in life as the king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's what I'm thinking.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is there more going on there?
Seth: I think there's one other thing going on here.
David: Okay.
Seth: Hezekiah is kind of the best Israelite servant Israel has ever had.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is a son of David. He's a son of Adam. He rules the nation promised to Abraham.... Isaiah says it, and so does 2 Kings, that he follows God with his whole heart-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: -mind, and strength. He r- he, like, reverses all the idolatry of his father.
David: Yep.
Seth: He rebuilds and reconsecrates the temple. He's responsible for the only Passover, recorded Passover, in Israel's history since the Exodus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's the greater Moses.
David: Right.
Seth: So there's this sense that Hezekiah is the best servant of God Israel has ever seen.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yet, he's beset by a human weakness, sickness, and in, in his final moments, falls to pride, and so it kind of begs the question, I think-
David: Mm
Seth: ... can any human-
David: Right
Seth: -do this?
David: Ah, I see.
Seth: Because we've been reading this story from Adam.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: We need a son. We need a son.
Seth: We need a son.
David: We need a son.
Seth: We need a servant to do-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this expanding work, bringing about the nations flowing to this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to Israel, to God's people, and we have the best candidate yet-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Hezekiah.
David: And he came with a promise, even, maybe.
Seth: He came with... Yep-
David: With an Emmanuel promise
Seth: ... potentially gave it a promise.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is he Emmanuel? Is he not?
David: Yep.
Seth: He does it in his life. I mean, he saves Israel from-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... their oppressors, but he fails.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think there's also, like, a sense here that Isaiah's wanting to poke on the fact that, like, perhaps this is a promise not able to be fulfilled by a human.
David: Mm.
Seth: And, like, he's pushing us to say, like, "I think only God can save us."
David: Yep, which makes sense, then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with how it ends, where it's like there's resurrect- there's deathbed resurrection-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but not through your line. "So I'm gonna-
Seth: Yes.
David: "So all your sons are gonna be eunuchs."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it pulls on that tension we found between Isaiah 7 and Isaiah 9-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where it's like, "Okay, you're gonna have a son, and he's gonna be God with you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "But it's not quite gonna be like you think it is, because chapter 9's gonna tell you that that son's gonna be Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Seth: Mm.
David: That doesn't sound like a human.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That sounds like God.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it does some- it does seem that we need a servant that transcends humanity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and actually is God with us-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the flesh, to be the king that we're waiting for. We need something that's more than human.
Seth: That's right, and I think that's what you're being set up for in the next section.
David: I see.
Seth: Okay, if, if a human leader is not what we need, what do we need?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What will a God, a servant who is God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... look like?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what we get in the next section of Isaiah.
David: I see. And what we need is... What we need, and what we need, we get.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like-
Seth: God provides
David: ... we can land this plane.
Seth: Yes, that's right. That's right.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: God saves. [laughs]
David: Yeah, God actually comes and is with us-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in Jesus. He- and he came to be our servant, and he came to do what no earthly king did, to wait for the Word of God, to die for his people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and to raise up himself and his nation to new life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is God with us.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's really good. Okay, well, I'm excited for the next section-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of Isaiah. Thank you all for listening and watching along with us as we go through the Book of Isaiah. Cannot wait for our next episode. We'll see you there. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
