Seth: [gentle music] ... presumably God is talking to all the people, and spiritual beings arrayed in his cosmic temple, and he's like, "Okay, who's gonna go to Israel for us?"
David: Ah.
Seth: "Who's gonna talk to Israel on our behalf, and bring about the justice and the serv- the servant-heartedness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we want for our people?" And Isaiah's looking around [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: among the flying beings, and he says, "I'll go."
David: Right.
Seth: "I'll go. I'll be the servant."
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everybody, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the Book of Isaiah, and we are going to start walking through the book, tracing this main theme that we talked about last time, about the servant who will suffer to save Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that right, Seth?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: We're on the right track.
David: Good.
Seth: But before we can even do it in Isaiah, we need to do it in the Book of Genesis.
David: Okay, well, you, you took us back to Deuteronomy in the last episode, so-
Seth: Yeah, so we're just gonna keep going backwards [laughs] um, for a long time. [laughs]
David: We're gonna, we're gonna end up in eternity past if I ask one more question. [laughs]
Seth: I [laughs] got on a deep dive recently about, like, the pre-Adamite theory.
David: Oh, my- [laughs]
Seth: Do you know about this?
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: That there's, like, a civilization before Adam that got lost under the chaos waters.
David: I, I do know this.
Seth: And I was like-
David: Okay, I didn't know that's what it was called.
Seth: That's, like, a cool sci-fi idea.
David: That would be an awesome sci-fi novel.
Seth: It's like-
David: Let's write it.
Seth: Let's write it. [laughs]
David: If you want Seth and I to write a pre-Adamite sci-fi novel, spam the comments.
Seth: Spam the comments. [laughs]
David: And we might just do it.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, we'll be really good at it.
David: Uh, we- it'll be fun.
Seth: It'll be fun.
David: It'd be a fun passion project. [laughs]
Seth: It'd be a fun... I have ideas in my Goo-
David: Same
Seth: ... Apple Notes- [laughs]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for this idea. [laughs]
David: I- [laughs] we have to do it now.
Seth: So and that's our podcast. [laughs]
David: [laughs] It is not. Keep listening.
Seth: Uh-
David: So yes, uh, we have to go back to Genesis in order to understand the theme of the servant.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so I think when we think of the word servant, we just need to populate our mind with what the Bible means by servanthood.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because I think servant is like, I think, like, you know, British period dramas.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: That's what I think of when I think of servants-
David: Yes
Seth: ... right?
David: "Your tea is ready, my lord."
Seth: Yes, yes.
David: Sorry to all my British friends. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] So the first time the idea of service comes into the Bible is in the Book of Genesis, and it's Adam.
David: Okay.
Seth: Adam is told to rule the world, and to- he is responsible, along with Eve, for extending the boundaries of God's kingdom and bringing paradise to the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Amen.
Seth: That's his job.
David: Yep.
Seth: And through him and through multiplying with his wife, he will fill the Earth with God's paradise, and His goodness, and His justice, and His laws throughout the whole land.
David: Yes.
Seth: And when Adam is given this commission in Genesis 2:15, he says this: "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to serve it and protect it."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's the first use of the word serve in the Bible.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's the verb form of the word servant-
David: All right
Seth: ... that will come along.
David: Yep.
Seth: So what I want us just to see, at the very beginning of the Bible, God has the idea of ruling his world and serving the land, or serving the people, or serving the garden as connected ideas.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we're supposed to serve. The... Well, just what, what are you thinking as we just talk at this very basic level, um, about what it means to serve?
David: The, the, the word serve is still hitting maybe the wrong nerve, or maybe it's the right nerve.
Seth: Okay.
David: I just need to know, so I gotta process that. So it, it, it sounds like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... God created this world, uh, like, like, like a, like a lord would create a house.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then said, "Now serve me within it."
Seth: Okay.
David: And there's, like, a, the creation or the h- the home-
Seth: Mm
David: ... kind of stands above the man, the servant.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And the lord stands above that man.
Seth: Yes.
David: And they are responsible for it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, but they don't have any kind of agency in it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Does that make sense?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, that's a good thing to name.
David: 'Cause he also... 'Cause A- Adam also had dominion.
Seth: That's right. And I think what I'm trying to say here is that when the Bible talks about that, that power to rule-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or that p- that, that, that, that dominion-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that it talks about it in terms of service.
David: Yeah, there you go.
Seth: Right, like-
David: I think that's helpful. Yep
Seth: ... that, that's the way. It's like you are serving the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by extending the borders of Eden. Because remember, the world is a, a barren wasteland.
David: Right.
Seth: And Adam is called to extend the paradise of God further and further out.
David: Mm, mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think the idea here is not, you're s- you're, you're serving the barren wasteland.
David: Mm.
Seth: You're serving future generations. You're serving the world by obeying God's commands and extending his dominion throughout the world. Does that, does that, does that make more sense?
David: Yes, it, yeah,
Seth: Like, there's this-
David: Yeah, it's making more sense
Seth: ... outward focus. The service is not so much... It is towards God.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yes, but it is also for the benefit of the world.
David: W- how helpful is it, as we go back to Adam here, to either double down on or purge ourselves of the, the subjectiveness?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that a, that a servant is a subject.
Seth: A subject, yes.
David: Um, and n- and, and that it's this humble task.
Seth: I think you are supposed... I think that is still part of it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, the word service does imply... I mean, it's often translated slave-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the, in the Old Testament as well.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or servant, like, in a traditional sense of, like-... you serve a master.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's not devoid of any of those connotations. It is- Adam is not the ultimate ruler of the world. He's a sub-ruler, a vice, a viceroy.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: He's a, he's a prince to God the king, and he serves the world.
David: That's helpful, thinking about him as a prince who serves the world-
Seth: Yes
David: ... gives me that duality of dominion, power, authority-
Seth: Yes
David: ... along with obedience, being a subject-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and helping those around you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there- 'cause there is that double sense, at least for Adam. I don't know if- how, how, how far that thread continues-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... especially as we get to Isaiah's servant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I don't know yet, but I'm just trying to make sure I have my categories straight, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I think when you said, like, we need to populate our, our imagination with what is a servant from a-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Biblical worldview, at least from this thread we're pulling-
Seth: That's right
David: ... it's like I still have that, like-
Seth: No, that's good
David: ... under-the-heel kind of feel with the word servant.
Seth: Yeah, I think king and prince-
David: King and prince
Seth: ... is, is the better, like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... metaphor here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you have God the king, who's given the prince a region of the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to occupy and to steward, and he is called to serve-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... those under his care and those yet under his care-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by extending the boundaries of God's kingdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... into the chaos of the world.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yep.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: So that is what the role of the servant is.
David: Okay.
Seth: Okay?
David: That makes sense, yep. Uh, one more, one more question.
Seth: Yes.
David: How important... We keep coming back to it, but I'm like, how important are these themes of serving those inside and outside, and-
Seth: Oh, so important.
David: Okay, and then chaos in Eden?
Seth: Yes, they're important as well.
David: Okay.
Seth: When Isaiah picks it up, it'll look a little bit differently-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because in the Garden of Eden, we're talking on, like, fundamental levels, chaos versus order.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But when we get to Israel as a nation, right order in a nation is called justice.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so Isaiah will talk about the servant of Israel doing justice in the world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and bringing peace to the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, the vocabulary changes, but the ideas are-
David: Yep
Seth: ... are the same.
David: Okay, that makes sense.
Seth: Um, so-
David: So where do we go with this word serve, servant-
Seth: Yes
David: ... from Adam? How does it develop?
Seth: So the, the, uh, the next person it develops it with is Abraham.
David: Okay.
Seth: So if you jump to, uh, Genesis, uh, chapter 12-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this is God's interaction with Abraham and extending the Adamic command to rule the world to Abraham. And he says this: "Uh, go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you, and I will make you a great nation."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we have this idea of ruling.
David: Yep.
Seth: Again, we have like, now it's a nation you're ruling, not just a garden or a land-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but a nation itself. "And I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing." And then he says this in verse 3: "I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you, I will curse. And in you, all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
David: Yep.
Seth: So in Abraham, we have a, this continuation of the idea that through God's chosen prince-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... this servant prince, who extends the boundaries of his nation, the world will be blessed.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right, and here, Abraham's not vocabulary-wise called a servant.
Seth: Not yet, no.
David: Okay, not yet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But the, all the same duties and responsibilities and authority-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and relationship are given to him that was given to Adam.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so he is the servant.
Seth: Yes, and so in, uh, Genesis 26:24, God calls Abraham his servant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, when speaking to, uh, Abraham's son.
David: Okay.
Seth: Abraham to Abraham's son, Isaac. He says, he says, "I am the God of Abraham, your father. Fear not, I am with you and will bless you and multiply your offspring for my servant Abraham's sake."
David: Ah.
Seth: Uh-
David: It is interesting. He gives him the same Adam command.
Seth: That's right.
David: Um-
Seth: Exactly
David: ... he uses all that same language.
Seth: Multiply.
David: Multiply.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And then it's like, "Well, w- why am I in this lineage? Like, what does it mean to receive this blessing?" And that's when he decides to pull out the Adam title of servant-
Seth: Isn't that interesting?
David: ... because he's like, " 'Cause now you're the new Adam."
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You're the new Adam." And then a little bit later, Moses will call Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the multiplying family of Abraham, all God's servants.
David: Oh.
Seth: Uh, in, uh, Exodus 32, uh, verse 13, it says this: "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, uh, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self." Uh, and then he goes on, "I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, so they will inherit it forever."
David: Okay.
Seth: So you see, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... God's, like, that, that Adamic command of increasing the Kingdom of God through his servants, multiplying throughout the world forever-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is the promise given to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, and interestingly, to... The vocabulary is Israel here.
David: Yes.
Seth: Not just these individuals, but the nation itself-
David: Right
Seth: ... begins to be identified as God's servant.
David: Okay, that makes a lot of sense, and each time, it's tied to this multiplication-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and this external blessing.
Seth: That's right.
David: Um, a- and so a- again, it always goes back to the original Edenic purpose-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that what God was doing in the garden with his prince and servant, Adam-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... would spread out as a blessing of paradise to the whole world.
Seth: That's right.
David: So from a singular servant, there would be a blessing to the whole world-
Seth: That's right
David: ... through a multiplication of servants.
Seth: That's right. That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And at the very end of Genesis, you have a living picture of this in the character of Joseph, right?
David: Oh, yes, I think I know what you mean.
Seth: Joseph is one of, uh, Jacob's sons-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and he rises to power to be the prince of Egypt.
David: Yes.
Seth: Great movie.
David: Prince of Egypt?
Seth: It is, like, an underrated movie.
David: Oh, it's so great.
Seth: It's so good.
David: So, the music, though.
Seth: Uh, its music's great.
David: So good.
Seth: ... Oh, great movie. Not, not about Joseph, but anyway, he becomes the Prince of Egypt.
David: Yep.
Seth: And, uh, he, through his rule, and his wise rule-
David: Yep
Seth: ... ends up blessing the whole world.
David: And he was a servant.
Seth: And he was a servant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to the King of Egypt-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but also to God himself.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, so at the very end of Genesis, you have this picture of Adam ruling a nation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... blessing the world through his rule and dominion.
David: Because all the nations were experiencing, like, a drought-
Seth: That's right
David: ... a famine.
Seth: That's right. That's right, yes.
David: And they came to him, who had wisely stewarded the garden-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of harvest that was in Pharaoh's land-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and was able to feed and bless the nations-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... by his wise servanthood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He multiplied the grain, in a sense-
Seth: That's right
David: ... you know, in order to provide for the nations. That's super cool. Where else do we see servant before we get to Isaiah? How else has the theme developed?
Seth: Yeah, the next person to be called, uh, a servant is Moses.
David: Mm.
Seth: And in Moses, we kinda have, like, a, like, a concretizing of some of the themes that have just kind of been in the background. So we keep talking about, like, God's rule and dominion-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... going out throughout the world. Well, in Moses, that rule and dominion gets a set of laws.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: The kingdom gets a set of laws.
David: And you talked about, like, chaos being overcome by justice.
Seth: That's right.
David: And these laws come to kind of calm down the chaos.
Seth: They calm, they ca- calm down the chaos of Israel.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: So Moses comes. He rescues Israel out of Egypt by God's power. He inherits a set of laws from God, communicates it to God's, uh, people on their behalf, and justice begins to reign in the camp of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they are called to go out into the world and spread that justice. So much so that in the Book of Leviticus, chapter 25, Israel itself begins to be called God's servant.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so less individuals now, but Israel as a nation is called to be this light to the world. And when people come and see it, they'll see a standard of justice and equity, and good- the goodness of God that attracts them, and people are drawn into the ever-expanding Kingdom of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as their servant.
David: Okay, that makes a ton of sense.
Seth: Yes.
David: Any other developments of servant we wanna talk ab- uh, about before we get to Isaiah?
Seth: Yeah, I think the only other thing I would say is maybe in Deuteronomy chapter 28, we get a picture of what God's servant is supposed to do in the world.
David: Mm.
Seth: So Israel, before they go into the Promised Land, God kind of gives them a, a little mini picture of what it will be like when they become the servants to the world they're meant to be.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Uh, here's what God says in Deuteronomy 28: "The Lord will establish you as a people holy to himself, as he has sworn to you. And if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in his ways, all the people of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall fear you," or respect you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or come to you. "And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb, and the fruit of your livestock, and the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you." So he's just saying, as Israel embodies this role of servant, as it serves the world by being this beacon of justice, by obeying the law, the ordered laws of God, the nations will fear it-
David: Right
Seth: ... but flow to it in hopes of justice.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then Eden will spread out. Like, wombs will be fruitful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... livestock will be fruitful, crops will be fruitful.
David: That's right.
Seth: Eden will come through the servant Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: That makes a ton of sense.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: So that is the background to what Isaiah is talking about when it begins to talk about the servant, this prince who will rule God's people in justice and bring blessing to the world. And in Isaiah chapter 2, we get this beautiful description of it.
David: Mm. And I can imagine that Israel really needed a message like this-
Seth: Mm
David: ... thinking about bringing back in the historical context that we talked about-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that they're surrounded by chaos. The nations that are around them, like Assyria, are, uh, not fearing them at all.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Instead, Israel and Judah are afraid-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... of these other nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How on earth do they have any kind of dominion by which to serve and be a blessing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to these other nations around them, when they are just trying to figure out how to survive-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... around them? It's like, how, God, can we-
Seth: Yes
David: ... fulfill any kind of Edenic, Adamic commandment-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or servanthood-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when you're under a nation's boot?
Seth: Yeah. I am curious to the level of self-awareness Israel had-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to their servant role, because I, I, I think what some of what Isaiah is doing is he's calling them to remember this.
David: Ah, you've forgotten who you're supposed to be to the nations.
Seth: Yes.
David: You're trying to make alliances, or you're trying to fight back, or you're afraid.
Seth: That's right.
David: But you know who you are?
Seth: That's right.
David: You're the servant to the nations.
Seth: So let me just read you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how Isaiah talks about Israel as a servant. So this is Isaiah chapter 2, verse 2: "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord," so a way to refer to, like, the temple-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or Jerusalem, "shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above all the hills, and all nations shall flow to it.
David: Mm.
Seth: And many people shall come and say, 'Let's go to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways, that we may, may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law..." The Hebrew word is Torah.
David: Torah.
Seth: The Torah, "and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." And then what will happen there? "God shall judge between the nations. He'll decide disputes for the people, and they'll beat their swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks, and nation won't lift up sword against nation anymore. Neither shall they learn war anymore." So Israel-
David: One of my all-time favorite passages in the whole Bible.
Seth: Isn't it amazing?
David: Yes.
Seth: So the, the, the vision of-... Israel being God's servant-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that they are this l- city on a hill, this light in the darkness of the world, that the nations stream to and find justice, and learn how to be- learn peace.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the vision of what Israel's supposed to be.
David: Right.
Seth: But-
David: But...
Seth: Isaiah chapter 1 tells us Israel's not that.
David: Mm.
Seth: Isaiah chapter 1 describes just how far Israel has fallen from the ideal of who they're meant to be.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, let me read chapter 1, verse 3: "The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know. My people do not understand."
David: Mm.
Seth: "They don't understand who their master is. They don't understand who they're meant to serve." Verse 4, "O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly. They have forsaken the Lord, their King."
David: Mm.
Seth: "They have despised the Holy One of Israel," another kingly title.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "They are utterly estranged." Like, Isaiah opened up, "Here's who you're meant to be, the servant through all- whom all people stream to for justice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but you've totally abandoned your king and your master."
David: How can you be a servant if you don't know whom you serve?
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And chapter 1 just goes on to describe the sins of Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in pretty sad detail.
David: Yeah, I was just, like, glancing. It's like, oh yeah, they're, like, messing with orphans and-
Seth: Mm
David: ... not defending the cause of the most poor and vulnerable in their society.
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like they can't even do the simplest forms of justice in their own borders. How could they possibly bring Torah to the nations-
Seth: That's right
David: ... surrounding them?
Seth: Verse 21 says this: "How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice. Righteousness used to lodge in her, but now they are murderers."
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: That's like, "You've fallen from who you're meant to be in the world."
David: Right. So they, they've forgotten who their master is. They- they're like, okay, so a dumb animal knows its master-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like the ox knows its master.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But Israel's forgotten its king. What, what does it mean to forget who they serve? Like, does that mean that... Is that an idolatry thing, that they're-
Seth: Oh, yes
David: ... starting to serve other gods? Is it that they're not listening to the prophets? Is it that they're just living in rampant sin? What is he talking about there?
Seth: I think it's a little bit... Like, all of the above.
David: All of those.
Seth: It's all of the above, but I think most fundamentally, it's probably an idolatrous thing.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like they've forgotten the God that has made them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and they've forgotten what that means to be- have been made by God, um-
David: 'Cause if they're made by God, then they're his adam, his servant-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and they're losing-
Seth: Um
David: ... that calling.
Seth: Yeah, and interestingly enough, and we'll get here eventually, but when we get into those servant songs, the- in, in Isaiah 40 and onwards, all the servant songs are surrounded by warnings against idolatry.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Isaiah, like, even deconstructs the weirdness and the idiocy of idolatry. "So you're telling me a man, like, is gonna go out to the- to his, his lumber yard, he's gonna take a piece of wood, he's gonna shave off some, make a whistle. He's gonna shave off a little bit more, and he's gonna make a little bit of fire for himself, and then he is gonna shave off some more and then bow to that other pile of shavings?"
David: That he made?
Seth: "That he made? It- d- doesn't that strike you as odd-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel, that the maker is bowing to the thing that he's made?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and it's in the context of this, of, like, type of idolatry, this forgetting of who their true master is, that Isaiah introduces us to the- this servant-
David: Okay
Seth: ... who will come and save God's people.
David: So, so there's a, there's a big development here that I'm seeing, uh, 'cause right now we've set up this... The servant-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is the one who will be fruitful and multiply, and bring Eden creation to the chaos within the nations.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that was Adam, and it was Abraham, and then it was-
Seth: Israel
David: ... Israel, and Moses, and like, uh, there's a whole nation of Israel supposed to be a blessing to the nations. They've, they've lost that calling-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, because they are not doing justice. They're not bringing order into chaos, and that's because, and this is, like, what seems to be, like, the very Isaiah development, is because they have forgotten who they serve, and they're starting to serve idols instead of God.
Seth: Yes.
David: They're not listening to God's voice. They're not following His law. They don't know who they are in relationship to Yahweh.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And 'cause in order to be a servant, you have to have a master.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so they've forgotten that they have a master-
Seth: Yes
David: ... or they've replaced that master.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, that's just, like... That's an interesting-
Seth: Yes
David: ... idea there.
Seth: Yes. Uh-
David: Uh, and I'm even thinking, like, for myself, I'm like, "How often do I think ab- am I thinking about myself as a servant to a master?"
Seth: Yes.
David: "And when I stop thinking about that, do I stop doing His work here in the world?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm just thinking about all these things now.
Seth: The other thing that Isaiah will throw in here is there is still a minority of people who have not forgotten.
David: The remnant.
Seth: There's a remnant.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There are a group of survivors whom have remained faithful to God, but they're surrounded by wickedness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what Isaiah will say is the- God's plan for His people to re- restore their servanthood is to remove all those who are disobedient and disloyal to their master. So Isaiah's vision for the redemption of Israel, and the restoration of Israel to their servant calling, to bless the entire world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is one of removal of the evil ones.
David: Okay. What is... Tie that into-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... servant and master for me.
Seth: If you have a bad servant, you fire him.
David: Sure. Yep. [laughs] Yep.
Seth: You, you, like, when they're not performing their job-
David: Yep
Seth: ... when they're not recognizing the authority of the master, when they're being insubordinate and introducing into your home a whole bunch of things that you don't want in your home.
David: You would get rid of them, because they would not be propagating your home in the way-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that you want it to be.
Seth: You would leave only those who are serving you truly.
David: I get that.
Seth: Um, and so-
David: So in order for the house to do its job in the neighborhood-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you've gotta have the right kind of people working in the house.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, I get that.
Seth: And so, so Isaiah's vision for the way that Israel will be restored is through purification.
David: Okay.
Seth: God's gonna come and purify-... his people by removing those who have refused to serve God and bring his paradise to the world.
David: Okay, so is th- is that what this new servant does, that we're hoping for?
Seth: Um-
David: Or that gets introduced?
Seth: We'll get there.
David: Okay.
Seth: We'll get there, because-
David: I'm trying to tie it together. [laughs]
Seth: Oh, man.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's so exciting.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um-
David: So let me just- let, let's see if I can hit the reset button here. So we've, we've traced the theme of servant, we've gotten to Israel. She's supposed to be this city on a hill, to whom all nations stream-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... listen to God's justice and voice, and then bring shalom out-
Seth: Yes
David: ... into the chaos. It's what they're supposed to do.
Seth: Yes.
David: Instead, they can't even accomplish the m- most minute forms of justice inside their own borders. They've forgotten their God, forgotten their master, and have ceased to be the servant they're supposed to be.
Seth: That's right.
David: So what does Isaiah say next then?
Seth: Isaiah says the solution to that-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is being cleansed.
David: Okay, so we gotta get the bad servants out-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and m- get all the good servants in.
Seth: Yeah, and you can see this in chapter one, verse 18: " 'Come now, let us reason together,' says the Lord. 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.' " He's saying, "Israel, this is... does not have to be your end."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Disobedience, sinfulness, disobedience, chaos, does not have to be who you are. I am committing to purifying and cleansing you as a people."
David: But that doesn't, that doesn't sound like, um, that Israel, that Israel- that God's gonna get rid of all the bad people and keep all the good people. It sounds like he's gonna, like, forgive them and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... wash them clean, change who they are-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not change who's inside of it.
Seth: This is a tension-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that runs throughout the book. I mean, if you go just up a couple verses to verse nine, it says, "If the Lord of Hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."
David: Mm.
Seth: It seems like God was purifying Israel to such a degree that only survivors were left.
David: I see.
Seth: So the evil was projec- uh, chapter three, verse 10 and 11: "Tell the righteous that it shall be well with them, for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds. But woe to the wicked, it shall be ill with them-
David: I see
Seth: ... for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Um, so, like, there is this, like, sense like, well, didn't God say that he would cleanse his... Like, that, that washing like scarlet things, like, seems he's transforming people.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, in the sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he is on a corporate scale.
David: Yeah.
Seth: How do you... If you have 100 people, and 67 of them are, are bad-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but it's still one people.
David: Right.
Seth: You would just get rid of the 67, and you would leave the math. [laughs]
David: Uh-huh, the math that's left. [laughing]
Seth: The math that's left! [laughing]
David: The 33.
Seth: [laughing] The 33 to be- to constitute the new, humble-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... servant people of God.
David: Yep. Okay, so I get that tension. Yep.
Seth: Yes.
David: So in order for Israel to be the servant she was meant to be-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and bless the world-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as she was meant to, Israel needs to be cleansed of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the bad servants-
Seth: Yes
David: ... or at least cleansed of the sin that's causing the badness, whatever that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... tension is.
Seth: Yes.
David: And be a good servant-
Seth: That's right
David: ... as a whole once again.
Seth: That's right.
David: But how do we get that?
Seth: And this is where we're introduced to Isaiah.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So nor- this is really fascinating. So when we re- have read Jeremiah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and Ezekiel-
David: You're introduced to the prophet right at the front.
Seth: At the very first thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we're told that they see a vision of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and God commissions them.
David: Not so.
Seth: Isaiah is buried ch- six chapters into his book of prophecies.
David: In order that a servant could pop up in the m- like a-
Seth: Yes!
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: All right.
Seth: So that we would see in Isaiah-
David: What Israel needs
Seth: ... what Israel is to do.
David: I see.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so Isaiah, in chapter six, sees this vision of God.
David: Super famous vision.
Seth: Super famous vision, uh, the... He sees a vision of the temple. God is sitting in power. His s- the, his robe fills the temple, there's smoke everywhere. He sees flying seraphim that are f- on fire-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and a seraphim is like-
David: Something.
Seth: We won't go into that. [laughs] We won't go into the seraphim-
David: It's a type of spiritual being.
Seth: It's a, a, an amazing spiritual being, and they're all singing, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty."
David: Yeah, but okay, so you... There's this picture of Isaiah in some kind of glory-filled-
Seth: Yes
David: ... perfection temple garden thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then Isaiah's response to seeing the Holy One of Israel, the God of order, and goodness, and paradise, is to say this in verse five: "I said, 'Woe is me! I am lost. I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the middle of a people of unclean lips. My eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts.' " Isaiah's response to this vision of the good master-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is to say, "I am not a good servant."
David: Right.
Seth: He, he's recognizing the uncleanliness and disobedience, that not only he has personally, but that he dwells in the midst of. Like, he's identifying himself-
David: Right
Seth: ... in context with his nation.
David: Well, he pronounces the same curse upon himself as he pronounced on the nation of Israel's bad actors-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in chapter three, that we just read.
Seth: That's right.
David: "Woe to those who don't do good."
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's like, "Actually, now that I've seen the Lord, woe to me-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because I'm unclean, and I live with unclean people."
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay, so he's confessing.
Seth: He's confessing, as Israel should.
David: As Israel should. Israel needs to come to terms with the fact that they have forgotten-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... their role-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and their, like, the righteousness they're supposed to have.
Seth: That's right.
David: And they need to confess to God that they are this way.
Seth: That's right, and then what happens next? "Then," verse six, "one of the seraphim flew to me, and had a burning coal in his hands that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said, 'Behold, this has touched your lips. Your guilt is taken away, your sin is atoned for.' "
David: Mm.
Seth: It's that cleansing.
David: Indeed.
Seth: He's been washed white as snow.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's being washed as Israel is to be washed, and what is Israel meant to be?... a servant of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so what do we see next is Isaiah commissioned to be one of God's servants. God starts speaking, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" So presumably, God is talking to all the people, and spiritual beings arrayed in his cosmic temple, and he's like, "Okay, who's gonna go to Israel for us?
David: Ah.
Seth: Who's gonna talk to Israel on our behalf and bring about the justice and the serv- the servant-heartedness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we want for our people?" And Isaiah's looking around [chuckles] among the flying beings, and he says, "I'll go."
David: Right.
Seth: "I'll go. I'll be the servant."
David: Right, and i- it's so fascinating-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to hear it in this context because I feel like I always just hear, hear this, and not that this is bad, but that this commissioning of Isaiah and his willingness to say, "Here I am, send me," is his, his obedience, his bravery-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, his willingness-
Seth: Yep
David: ... his availability.
Seth: Yep.
David: You know, I've heard, I- I've heard- I've been at youth conferences where it's like, "Give God your 'Here I am, send me.'" You know?
Seth: Yes.
David: But sure-
Seth: yeah-
David: Nothing wrong with that, really. But also, what's happening here is he's identifying... He knows who he is.
Seth: He does.
David: He's like, "Oh, you're looking for the servant."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You're looking for the, the Adam-like person."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he's looking around, and all, all that he sees are spiritual beings and things like that.
Seth: Mm. I hadn't thought about that.
David: They're not the-
Seth: Fascinating.
David: They're not Adam.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're not man, which is what Adam means.
Seth: Mm. Yes.
David: They're not the servant. They're not the incarnated ones-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who are meant to live in the world and bring God's justice to it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's not their job. So he looks around. He's the only Adam in the court of Heaven.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And he's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... "Well, I guess that's my job, then." [chuckles]
Seth: I guess that's my job. [chuckles]
David: "Because I'm the human. I am Adam- [laughing]
Seth: ... [laughing] Yeah.
David: "And I am meant-
Seth: That's good
David: ... to go and do this servant thing."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he, like, understands who he is in that moment.
Seth: That's fascinating.
David: Pretty cool.
Seth: That is really cool.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and so God says, "Great, let's send you on your mission."
David: Mm.
Seth: And here's what's kind of heartbreaking. I think a lot of people understand what's, what's heartbreaking about this, but what God says to Isaiah is that his mission will not be one of restoration. It'll be one of, like, essentially damnation.
David: Right.
Seth: And he says this, um: "Go and say to this people," meaning Israel, "Keep on hearing, but don't understand. Keep on seeing, but don't perceive. Isaiah, make the heart of this people dull, make their ears heavy, blind their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with the ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." God's saying, "I don't want Israel healed in this moment, and Isaiah, I want you to make sure it doesn't happen."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I want you to prevent the healing of God's people." And Isaiah's- has a very natural response. "Well, how long [chuckles] am I gonna have to do this before?" But let's talk about, um-
David: That idea
Seth: ... that idea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, God's saying, "Your job is to make it impossible for my people to be healed."
David: Yeah.
Seth: This goes back to this idea of cleansing.
David: Mm.
Seth: How are God's people, as a, as a nation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... going to be cleansed?
David: I mean, if, if I'm following Isaiah's pattern, it's through confession.
Seth: It's through confession, that's right, and actually being atoned for.
David: Actually being atoned.
Seth: Being-
David: So I need to own that it's my sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... come to God, say, "Woe is me, I'm unclean,"-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and then he has to atone me.
Seth: Has to be burned out.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: That's what I need to happen.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what I think is happening here is God is saying, "We need to burn out the evil actors in Israel, and so your job, Isaiah, is to identify them."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Like, your job is to preach in such a way that it m- is made clear-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who are those that are against my law, against my order, against my peace, and against my paradise in the world."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Your job is to identify them and preach in such a way as that their crimes are obvious."
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's his job.
David: Right, and it's-
Seth: Mm.
David: And, and he does that, what, through... 'Cause I, I, I immediately jump to when Jesus quotes this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and makes the same point, so I'm using-
Seth: Yes
David: ... kind of that actually to interpret this.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But let me take a stab at it. So it's like he's preaching, you know, what God wants them to do. "Hey, Ahaz, don't trust Assyria. Don't make an alliance with them," right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But Ahaz does-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... thus proving that he's the one who needs to get burned out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's to get away in order for-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... Israel to be the servant that they need to be.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and so as he preaches just simply what God wants them to do, he reveals the hard-hearted because-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the hard-hearted don't ob- don't obey.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they i- they kind of self-select-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that they're the ones who don't want to do-
Seth: That's right
David: ... like, what God says.
Seth: That's right.
David: And like, Jesus does the same thing with parables.
Seth: He does.
David: He speaks in parables-
Seth: That's right
David: ... so that those who have hard hearts-
Seth: Mm
David: ... won't believe.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But those who do are like, "Well, what does it mean? I wanna learn. I wanna follow this rabbi. I wanna change."
Seth: That's right.
David: "Woe is me. Help me out, Jesus." [chuckles]
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, and he uses that parable of the sower to make his point.
Seth: Mm, mm.
David: He's like, "There's... I tell parables like a sower who throws seed all around. So Isaiah, you're gonna throw-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the seed of your prophecy all around, and it's gonna fall on rocky soil and the soil by the path, and it's gonna get choked out by weeds-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but there is still that remnant of good soil-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that your word's gonna fall on-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and those are gonna be the servants."
Seth: Yes.
David: My little servant patch.
Seth: Funnily enough, that's exactly what he says here-
David: Oh
Seth: ... in the next verse.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Isaiah's response is, "How long do I have to preach- "
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like this?"
David: Right.
Seth: "Like, how do- how long do I have to confirm people in their, in their evil?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and he says, "Well, until Israel is ruined-
David: Mm
Seth: ... essentially." But he says this in verse 13, "And though a tenth will remain in Israel at the end of all this judgment, you will see. I'm gonna burn it one more time. I'm gonna burn it again like a terebinth or an oak whose stump remains." So the idea is you're gonna preach until all the cities lay ruined, and there's only a tenth of Israel left, and then I'm gonna burn the, the stump.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I'm gonna burn the stump, but when it is felled-... the holy seed will be in the stump. So have, have you ever seen, like, a, like, a forest fire burn?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there's always these little, like, shoots that grow up from the roots.
David: Yeah, I was actually- I just was driving through the mountains of Colorado-
Seth: And you saw this?
David: -where they had-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a huge fire.
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And we were driving through, and yeah, it was crazy. Just thousands of-
Seth: Wow
David: ... trees burned. But yeah, you could start to see new growth coming out of it. It was kind of eerily beautiful.
Seth: And so that's what God is prophesying. Here's how long you're supposed to prophesy this type of judgment-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... until the shoot comes from the burned stump-
David: Right
Seth: ... of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Until that remnant, that small band of faithful servants-
David: Mm
Seth: ... rises.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's what you're supposed to do, Isaiah.
David: Okay, yeah. So Jesus was even pulling on seed language from-
Seth: He is. That's exactly right. That's exactly right
David: ... Isaiah. That's crazy.
Seth: And what's really funny, the only time this phrase, "holy seed" is used is in the Book of Ezra-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... when Israel returns from exile. These are the faithful people who rebuild God's temple.
David: They're the, the holy seed.
Seth: They're the holy seeds. Like, it's fulfilled in, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, eventually in Isaiah's time, or a little after.
David: That's cool.
Seth: 150 years later.
David: Just so, just a little after. [chuckles]
Seth: Just a little after.
David: Crazy. Okay, so you've got this kind of paradigmatic servant in Isaiah who shows Israel, embodies what Israel's supposed to do, repent of their sin-
Seth: Yes
David: ... be atoned for, and then now he- now that he has... He's, like, this word bringer with atoned lips-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who's coming to God's people to speak God's Word to them, to, to try to bring Eden into the chaos within Israel's borders, but his commission is kind of an ironic one, or, like, a-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... I don't know, like, a sad one.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, because he's going to preach, but people are going to identify that they are the ones who are gonna be judged-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because they're not gonna listen to him.
Seth: Yes.
David: But there will be the small remnant-
Seth: That's right
David: ... who do listen, and though they have to kind of go along with Israel for the burning section-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they're gonna be part of the new growth, and there will be this new crop of true servants-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that will hopefully grow into this new garden.
Seth: Isaiah 2, the nations come into them, justice-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and peace flowing-
David: Exactly
Seth: ... throughout the world.
David: They'll, they'll become that.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay? Yep.
Seth: So that's the introduction to the Book of Isaiah.
David: All right. [laughs] Yeah, I get that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Cool. [gentle music] Okay, yeah, so I, I think we have this picture that... And we, we have so much, I think, ammunition right now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We've got the call of Adam and the need for a servant who brings a blessing to all nations. This is supposed to be the nation of Israel. Uh, they fail at that, so God shows us this need for repentance and-
Seth: Cleansing
David: ... cleansing so that we become, even through death, we become this shoot that pops up-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as a new crop that does actually grow into a kingdom that blesses all nations.
Seth: Yes, and Isaiah is this, like, living picture-
David: Picture
Seth: ... of who Israel's meant to be.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is, like, laid flat under the glory of God, but God raises him up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... cleanses him to be his servant-
David: Right
Seth: ... to his people. Yeah.
David: And so Jesus obviously sees himself-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as kind of a new Isaiah-
Seth: Yes
David: ... going around like a sower, spreading seed and identifying where all the hard hearts are, but also identifying where the good soil is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he says that, just like Isaiah promised, there will be this small crop of good soil, and it's gonna grow some 30-fold, some 60-fold, some 100-fold.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's gonna have this miraculous growth that comes out of it so that it can become this place. So how should we see Jesus in light of these first six chapters of Isaiah, of Isaiah?
Seth: Yeah, so John actually quotes this passage-
David: Okay
Seth: ... directly. So right after, uh, Mary anoints Jesus with, like, anoints his feet with oil-
David: Mm
Seth: ... preparing him for burial, in John's account, he goes up into the temple. Uh, he is rejected by the Jerusalem establishment, and then people start believing him. Some Greeks see him. They start believing him. Jesus prophesies that the Son of Man must die and be lifted up, and then we get this: "When Jesus had said these things, he departed from his disciples and hid himself. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him." By disciples, I don't mean his 12-
David: Okay
Seth: ... but just the larger crowds.
David: The people following him.
Seth: "So that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled. Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord revealed?" This is actually a prophecy from a little bit later. "Therefore, they could not believe, for again, Isaiah said, 'He has blinded their eyes and has hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'" So, uh, John does exactly what you're saying.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, Jesus sees himself as having the same ministry as Isaiah. He has to hide himself so as to confirm people in their disbelief-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to purify them. And then verse 41: "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him."
David: Isaiah saw Jesus's glory and spoke of Jesus?
Seth: Yes!
David: Okay.
Seth: So the, so-
David: So it's like, like what he saw in this temple vision?
Seth: Yeah, that's what he's saying.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, Isaiah- [laughs] John says that when Isaiah has this vision, he's actually seeing the glory of Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the re- and so his mission to Israel is to harden their hearts against the message of Jesus until the right time, that the, the shoots can come up.
David: Hmm. [laughs] What do, what do I do with that?
Seth: [laughs]
David: What does that mean?
Seth: It means that Jesus is the hope of the book of Isaiah.
David: Okay.
Seth: That the servant calling of bringing peace and prosperity and blessing to the world is fulfilled-... in Jesus's ministry and-
David: Mm
Seth: ... what he does for his people. Like, Isaiah was calling Israel to return to that servant calling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: To r- be faithful to God's laws in such a way that the whole world would be blessed and would stream to it, and learn God's laws, and have, like, peace throughout the world. And, and Isaiah says that that won't be fulfilled-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in conversation with John, at least. That begins to be fulfilled as Jesus comes and purifies his people through his acts-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of death, eventually, which, you know, Isaiah will talk about as well.
David: Okay. [chuckles] I, I think I'm just, like... I'm struggling, as I think probably a lot of people listening would be, with-- And I- with this strange effect that Jesus's ministry was having.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: With... Like, you would think that Jesus would come, and he would speak with such persuasive words, or use-
Seth: Mm
David: ... crazy God powers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to, when he talked to people, change their hearts, and, like, to l- make them good soil, and make them hear the kingdom, or... I don't know. You get what I'm saying?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm trying to say, like, it's just weird that Jesus and Isaiah were commissioned to preach and teach the word of God in such a way that it revealed the hardness of heart.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause what you're saying is, that hardness needs to be revealed for one of two things to happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: When the hardness of heart is revealed, either they're shown to be the ones who need to be cleansed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that they can be taken away, and so that the kingdom that, uh, can-
Seth: Begin with the humble servants.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's... I- it identifies those who need to be cleaned up, or it shows them who they are, and they act like Isaiah, and they repent.
Seth: That's right.
David: I think it's the same tension I ran into earlier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when you read, "Though your sin, y- though your sins be like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That when I think about cleansing and atonement, I think about it in terms of taking a bad person and cleaning them up so they're a good person-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... instead of identifying a bad person so they might go away-
Seth: Ah
David: ... to make a corporately good nation.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I think I'm running up against my Western individualism, maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or something there.
Seth: Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because there is a r- a very real sense that as, like, the story of what God does with his people moves throughout history, there is a sense that in Jesus, like, the decision to become cleansed becomes an individual one-
David: Mm
Seth: ... more than a corporate one. There, like, that, that is a real thing that happens. As God deals with Israel, he's dealing with a corporate body.
David: Right.
Seth: And when he deals with us now, he deals with his church. And, like, frequently, we have in our church people that aren't, aren't actually believers-
David: Sure
Seth: ... but leading them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And God cleanses them by getting evil pastors out of, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you know, like, he- the- that happens today.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, and so we could, we could talk about, like, the way that God cleanses the church.
David: Sure.
Seth: I, I guess I'm... But it all funnels through, also, an individual choice-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to confess and to accept the cleansing of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I, I, I, I get-
David: I get that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the other question, or maybe a better question to ask, is: Why is Jesus repeating this specific ministry of Isaiah?
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, so maybe we could compare those two things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So Isaiah is commissioned to preach in such a way that he reveals that Israel has forgotten their master and has ceased to be a servant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we're saying he's doing that-
Seth: To cl- to-
David: ... to, uh, i-
Seth: Prepare the remnant, or prepare-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: To, like, get rid of the... Like, so that the 90%, [chuckles] you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... will be, you know, burned down or whatever, and that tenth left over-
Seth: Mm
David: ... would be this remnant.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, we haven't quite landed that plane yet with Isaiah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so maybe that's why I'm having trouble applying it to Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, anything else that would help me round out, like, that m- that specific ministry and commissioning of Isaiah, that would help me understand why Jesus is picking up on it?
Seth: So I think what feels weird about reading this, it feels like Isaiah's given a specific mission to make it harder.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I, I actually don't know if that's maybe the best way to say it.
David: Right.
Seth: Because if you have a mission, and your mission is to encourage a proud people to adopt the role of a servant, that's not gonna be widely received.
David: No.
Seth: Right?
David: People are just gonna be like, "I'm not gonna do that." It's just revealing what's already there.
Seth: It's w- it's revealing what's already there. There's a way to preach that makes that more obvious.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's like, I don't wanna lessen the, the severity of God's w- like, God's commissioning to Isaiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: But I do think there's something about just the nature of what Is- what God is calling Israel to be, and Jesus is calling us to be-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to adopt this role of the servant, that automatically is going to cut people off. And I don't think... I, I think the implication is, like, well, if Jesus would've done more miracles-
David: Sure
Seth: ... uh, you know, some, some more folks might have got in. [chuckles]
David: He could've changed some minds.
Seth: He could've changed some minds, but, like, would it, would it have changed any hearts?
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, I think, like, there's probably just something a little more basic happening here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where it's like the message of being a servant is a hard one, and Jesus isn't gonna sugarcoat that with a whole bunch of miracles. It's like, "Hey, the call here is to come and die."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "The call here is to humble yourself. The call is to take on the laws of God and extend them throughout the world." Uh, later, Jesus will say, "It's to pick up your cross-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to follow me." It's like, the miracles that I'm going to do aren't going to make it easier to suffer later, because whatever miracle I do now might be undone by the suffering you experience later.
David: Right.
Seth: Right, so I, I, I don't, like-
David: He's teaching in a hard way-
Seth: Right
David: ... because he's calling people to a hard thing.
Seth: Right!
David: And because being his servant-... it, it actually means something.
Seth: That's right.
David: It doesn't mean just a mental ascent to something, and, "Well, let me just convince you that I am God on Earth by doing crazy miracles in front of you." And you're like, "Oh, he must be."
Seth: Yeah.
David: But you're actually not- you're actually just gonna end up doing what Israel's done all along-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and believing in God, but actually not serving him as master-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and not bringing the peace I wanna bring into the world. So I'm going to make you, like the, the rich, young ruler-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... come to terms with who you actually are.
Seth: That's right.
David: And you are greedy, and you will not follow me. So just realize that, and walk away-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because you're not actually going to serve me.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so a- and I think that is a more helpful way to put it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the other thing I'm- I was thinking about as you, as you were talking was, all of this is good news because of what's on the line.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's two things I can think about that are just on the line. There's, like, why would we go to such extremes to get this 10%, this tenth-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this remnant?
Seth: This remnant.
David: Why, why go to such extremes to get this good servant nation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... fixed on Earth? L- like, why? What... Who cares?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, it's because if we don't, then the whole world will continually be ruled by chaos, injustice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, the, the-
Seth: Yes
David: ... the destruction of orphans, the mistreatment-
Seth: Right
David: ... of the most vulnerable, uh, the pillaging of land, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, pollution, like, uh, corruption-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, all these things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The whole world is gonna continue to suffer under uncreation if we don't get the new Adams-
Seth: Right
David: ... here and doing their job.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's on the line, so it's an important work.
Seth: Right, and I think that makes sense as an... When you're talking about nation, like, if your nation's just shot through with corrupt leaders-
David: You kinda need to go away.
Seth: They need to go away, and the same thing would be true of any individual church.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you have a church that's trying to do what true religion says-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is to reach out to orphans and widows, and to protect the vulnerable, and to preach the gospel, but it's shot through with people working to get a paycheck-
David: Right
Seth: ... and get rich, you're, you're going to hamstring what God wants to do through his people on Earth.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the good news is getting rid of that, so that God's people can be who they're meant to be on the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Cities on a hill-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like lights in the darkness.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the other thing that's on the line is the presence of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's like Isaiah, it's important where he was when all this happened.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, he was in the throne room with Jesus, and he saw all this glory, and, like, that's what we're supposed to dwell with. That's why the command for the servant goes all the way back to the garden.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: Because it was in a place where man dwelt with God.
Seth: Yes.
David: And s- they were meant to serve in that garden temple. In fact, like, that word servant-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to serve and care for, are the verbs used of priests-
Seth: That's right
David: ... who work in the temple.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: And so it's like, we need to serve and care for this place where we can dwell with God, and so-
Seth: Right. Well, in Isaiah 2, it's, it's the mountain of the house of the Lord.
David: Yeah, it's a place where we live with God.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: That's what's on the line. What's on the line-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is communion with God, and Isaiah comes into the throne room of God, and he can't be there, and he knows he can't be there-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 'cause he's unclean.
Seth: Mm.
David: And that's why he says, "Woe to me. I'm gonna be wiped out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because this is a perfect place, and I'm definitely not supposed to be here. I would mess it up, so get rid of me. So this thing... 'Cause this thing is so good, it needs to continue.
Seth: Mm.
David: So just go ahead and get rid of me, 'cause I'd rather this continue and me be gone-
Seth: Yeah [laughs]
David: ... than me make this stop."
Seth: Yes.
David: "So get rid of me," and God's like, "No, no, no, I'm gonna cleanse you-
Seth: Cleanse
David: ... and actually let you be part of this thing."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's what's on the line is, like, unclean, broken people being cleansed and being brought into a place with God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we want to clean up the Earth-
Seth: Yes
David: ... so that God comes back.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, God wants to clean up the Earth, so he can come back.
Seth: Yeah, if we really love the idea or if we really want for the world God's presence-
David: Yes
Seth: ... over the world, it comes with the acknowledgement that no evil can be there-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for a whole bunch of reasons.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Evil cannot coexist with God. Evil is bad for others. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's like, evil cannot be where God is.
David: Yep, so he has to cleanse it.
Seth: So he has to cleanse it, and we should want that.
David: Yes.
Seth: And we should want that in the world.
David: Yeah, and it can come through one of two ways.
Seth: Yes.
David: Repent, or woe to me.
Seth: Or woe to me, that's right.
David: Yeah, so I get that. Okay. Oh, [exhales] all right, next time-
Seth: Next-
David: ... we get to talk about the Christmas prophecy. [laughs]
Seth: The Chris- we finally get to talk about the Christmas prophecies.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And as we've said, Isaiah is this living microcosm of who Israel's supposed to be. They're supposed to see who God is, repent, be cleansed, and serve God truly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we have a- what comes next is the test. Will Israel's king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... follow the pattern of the prophet?
David: I see.
Seth: Will they follow God as the prophet has told them to do?
David: Okay, uh, and we're gonna talk about the virgin birth?
Seth: We'll talk about the virgin birth.
David: Okay, and Immanuel?
Seth: And Immanuel.
David: Okay.
Seth: And unto us, a child is born.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: It's so good. [laughs]
David: Merry Christmas, everyone.
Seth: Merry Christmas. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Well, thank you, guys, for joining us, uh, through, uh, our journey through the Book of Isaiah. We're really excited to continue following this theme of the servant through Isaiah. We hope you join us next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
