Seth: [upbeat music] The way that you trust that this kingdom is the best kingdom, the way that you trust and have faith in King Jesus, is acting as if those things are true and lovely and beautiful. Love your neighbor. Provide for their needs. Have faith that God is one, that he is the smartest one in the universe, and love him for it.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing in the Book of Jacob, in the New Testament.
Seth: In the Book of Jacob [laughs], yes, that's right.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I mean, it's the Book of James.
Seth: It's the Book of James.
David: If you, if you don't get the joke, it was on purpose.
Seth: If you missed our first episode, we talked at length about the-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Well, David, I will, I'll rephrase.
David: That was kinda me.
Seth: David [laughs] talked at length about the etymology of the word James.
David: I'm, I'm still a little, like, butthurt about it.
Seth: In your, in your Greek, it is the Book of Jacob, but-
David: It's Jacob. His name was Jacob.
Seth: His, his name was Jacob, guys.
David: Don't... Let's not... Put me back on the soapbox.
David: [laughs] But for clarity's sake, out of a grand concession on my part, we're gonna call him James [laughs].
Seth: Out of the kindness and graciousness that has appeared in David Bowden, he has decided to call him what people have called him since the creation of the English Bible.
David: Fine.
Seth: James. [laughs]
David: Did you just quote Titus at me, too?
Seth: I did. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs] Okay. But today, we have a special kind of episode in that when we do an overview of a book, we typically only have one episode.
Seth: We try to cap it at one.
David: Yeah, but here, we wanted to take some time to look at kind of this very unique contribution James makes to the New Testament canon, where he talks about the correlation between faith and works.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's this moment in James that have ruffled a lot of feathers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Ma- made people want to de-canonize, yank James out of the Bible [laughs].
Seth: Yep.
David: But we're gonna look at it, and we're gonna understand what James is after, and why it's good news.
Seth: Yeah.
David: At least I'm hoping Seth has that for us today.
Seth: I'm hoping so, too. I mean, the, the positive way I think everybody, like, appreciates is faith without works is dead.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, we get that. Okay, yeah. We want a faith that works and does stuff. We don't want a just a s-
David: Right
Seth: ... sterile, arid faith that doesn't act.
David: Brains on sticks.
Seth: We don't wanna be that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We, th- Awesome. But what's caused theologians-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and people who are reading their Bible carefully s- so much problems, it's what James says in chapter two, verse 24, "You see that a person is justified or made right with God by works and not by faith alone." Isn't that contrary to what Paul says, that we are saved by grace and faith alone in Christ alone, that-
David: Right
Seth: ... apart from our righteousness, apart from the works that we do, apart from the moral effort that we bring, the moral, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we, to our salvation? So it's like a lot of people just think James and Paul are talking past each other or-
David: Or-
Seth: ... actually arguing-
David: Arguing
Seth: ... and disagreeing with each other.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we're gonna wade into today. And my goal-
David: It, yeah
Seth: ... is to get David to say at the end of the podcast that it is good news we are saved by works and not by faith alone.
David: Good luck. [laughs] You've got your-
Seth: [laughs] I think I did it once before.
David: You've got your work cut out for you in James, though, so I'm-
Seth: Wow
David: ... I'm, I'm excited though. I wanna get there. I wanna, I wanna get there. I'm ready to go on that journey. Okay. So what did we talk about last week that would be helpful for us as we step into this topic?
Seth: We talked about three different ways to frame, like, three assumptions that are behind the scenes in the Book of James.
David: Mm.
Seth: One, that Jesus is the smartest king that has ever lived.
David: Right, like wisdom literature.
Seth: He has given us wisdom that we need to accept and laws that we need to obey.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And another way to think about it is like, okay, James has an understanding of what the wisdom of Jesus is, and we talked about that as the death and resurrection of Jesus. We have to understand what the law of Jesus is. It's a law of freedom designed to preserve our freedom and to commemorate our freedom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And this final piece that James wants to impress on us, like, so what does it mean to have true citizenship in his kingdom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... true trust in Jesus' kingdom, true faith in Jesus?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If Jesus is the wisest king in the entire world, what does it mean to trust him?
David: Right.
Seth: What does it mean to have faith in him? What does it mean to actually believe him when he says he's those things?
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think that kinda rounds out kinda the whole teaching of the Book of James, too.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like the laws and the wisdom of Jesus demand that we be consistent-
David: Right
Seth: ... with the laws and wisdom of Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What does that mean?
David: It means we, we don't walk away from a mirror after looking ourselves in the face and forget what we look like.
Seth: Right.
David: Is that the metaphor, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're, uh, we're talk... Faith without works is dead, but this is, like, the fourth time that James has already told us that our actions must line up with our beliefs. Like, double-minded people receive nothing from God in the opening chapter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, verses six and seven. Christians can't just listen to God's word. They must do them. That's the mirror, the mirror stuff.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then, then the passage about partiality, those who follow the God who became poor but play favorites with the rich are inconsistent with the message of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: People are failing to live out their convictions, failing to live out the wisdom of the Messiah. In other words, they're failing to have true faith.
David: Okay. I think I... Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think I follow that. All right. So true faith, is that what's on the line here, is, is what's true faith?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: I don't th- I think what-
David: He, he does, he, does he use that term?
Seth: He doesn't.
David: Okay.
Seth: But what I think is happening here is I think people assume James is discounting the importance of faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's like, "Faith isn't what matters, works is what matters."
David: Ah.
Seth: But that's not true.
David: Right.
Seth: Because James multiple times assumes a vibrant faith of his audience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He says it in James 1:3, James 2:1, 2:5. He knows his people have faith
David: Mm
Seth: But he wants them to have true, vibrant faith
David: Mm
Seth: And he's, like, asking them a series of rhetorical questions, and he also gives them four illustrations to demonstrate what true faith looks like to the wisdom and laws of King Jesus
David: Okay. Before we get into those-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... can I ask a question?
Seth: Yes.
David: What is, like, a good working definition of faith? Can we define faith without these examples, or is, is that what-
Seth: Well, I think-
David: ... he's trying to do here?
Seth: If we were to embody James's audience-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they have a confusion about what real faith is
David: Mm
Seth: They say they have faith in Jesus, but they don't really know what they're saying when they say, "I believe in Jesus. I trust Jesus"
David: Is it be- is it because they don't know who Jesus is, or...
Seth: No
David: Okay, so it doesn't have to- anything to do with the content of what they believe
Seth: Yep. It's... And I can't tell it the better... Let's just go with James
David: Okay
Seth: Because-
David: I, I think all I'm trying to do here is, is make sure I enter into it the right way. Because, um, when we say faith-
Seth: Yeah. Right
David: ... people all over the world are listening to this, and they're gonna be like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they're gonna have something in their brains-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... of what they think faith means
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: And I wanna make sure we're gonna get to some kind of uniform-
Seth: Yes
David: ... understanding
Seth: So I think that's what James assumes, too. He knows that people reading this book-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... have a whole bunch of different definitions of faith.
David: I see
Seth: He's like, "Guys, you're misunderstanding it"
David: Mm
Seth: "Let me take you through four illustrations that demonstrate what real faith is, not what you assume faith is-
David: Okay
Seth: ... but what real faith actually is"
David: Okay. So what-
Seth: I could give you my definition up front-
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: ... if you want. No, it's okay
David: What you're asking us to do is to put down our assumptions about what faith is, our definitions of faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... everything we think is even on the line in what James is about to do.
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: Just put that down for a second and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... go with James on a journey-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through what his definition of faith is, and let's see where we get.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, I can do that.
Seth: Yeah
David: All right, everyone, come with me. We're putting-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... we're putting our presuppositions of what faith is down, and we're gonna let James hold our hand through this. Okay.
Seth: Okay. So James starts off giving us definition of real faith with a hypothetical, Verse 14
David: Okay, the definition of real faith through a hypothetical quest- or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... s- question or?
Seth: Situation
David: Situation, okay.
Seth: So Verse 14, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Suppose if a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, and then somebody goes and says to him, 'Go in peace, be warm, be filled,' without giving them the things they need for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" So what he's saying here is that a lot of people have the assumption that faith is just believing something-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or wishing people well, thoughts and prayers.
David: Mm
Seth: Like, right-
David: Thoughts and prayers. [chuckles]
Seth: Right. You know, like, faith is like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... something believed, something hoped for, something wished on
David: Okay. So what you're saying is the first thing James goes after here is any kind of reductionistic definition of faith as some kind of mental ascent or warm wishes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or, uh, like, "I'm on team Jesus"
Seth: Right. Right, because everybody knows that on the face of it is just blatant hypocrisy
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You can't say, "My prayers are with you," when really what they need is some food on their table
David: Right
Seth: You can't see somebody shivering in the cold and say, "Be warm. Be blessed by Jesus," and not give them your coat
David: Uh-huh
Seth: That's not actually believing the things that you're saying
David: Mm
Seth: That's looking in the mirror-
David: Okay
Seth: ... of the sacrifice of Jesus-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and then looking at your neighbor and saying, "They don't deserve the grace of Jesus like I do"
David: Mm. Mm
Seth: That's forgetting who you're supposed to be
David: Right. Okay, that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah
David: That makes sense. All right. So there's, like, an inconsistency there then
Seth: There's an inconsistency
David: Yeah, yeah. Faith is not something that you would just... Yeah, that, that illustration's so helpful
Seth: [laughs]
David: 'Cause it's, it's you see a poor person and you go like, "Oh man, I so want them to not be in that situation, and I have this food that I could give them, but instead I'm just gonna say, 'Best wishes, warm regards,' and keep driving"
Seth: Yeah
David: Is my heart actually lined up with the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... what I think it is, which is like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my belief is I want them to not be hungry.
Seth: Mm
David: I have the food to give them, but I don't give it to them
Seth: My belief is that I have a savior who became poor-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that somebody else could become rich
David: Mm
Seth: But when I see a poor person, I'm not willing to become poor so they might have a little bit more wealth today?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is my faith in that type of Messiah real-
David: Right
Seth: ... if I'm doing that? And I think most people say, "No, of course not. That's not real faith. That's not real belief"
David: Right
Seth: "That's a platitude if you say that"
David: Okay
Seth: Right?
David: When do you want me to start poking holes in this?
Seth: Uh, now
David: [laughs] Okay
Seth: Sure.
David: So my question then becomes, okay, so are you saying that if I drive past a homeless person, I'm, I don't have true saving faith?
Seth: I don't think that's what he's saying
David: Okay
Seth: He's not getting into the weeds of, like, the practicalities of, like, we see hundreds of poor people every day-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I'm sure in an ancient city where you're not as technologically advanced, where the divide between rich and poor is greater, like, there's going to be a sense in which, that you have to walk past a poor person just to survive your day. I don't think-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but regardless of all that, I don't think he's really talking about that reality and what you should do when you walk past a poor person. He's saying, like, what is the nature of true faith?
David: Mm.
Seth: The nature of true faith is that it responds to the needs of others and doesn't just say you want to respond to the needs of others
David: Right
Seth: You could in good faith walk past one poor person because you're giving 10% of your income to a, a local charity. Like-
David: Sure. Or-
Seth: ... the, the economies I'm not interested in
David: ... I'm wondering, yeah, I'm wondering too, like, it's not so much that his hypothetical situation with the poor person-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is... Let me tell you an example of a Christian who doesn't have true faith
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not really what he's doing here, it seems like. It seems like he's like, it's a metaphor-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, 'cause his, his question is, what good is it at the end of the story?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So he says, "You have this poor person, and this guy walks up, he says, 'Be warm and well fed'"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but doesn't give him anything.
Seth: That faith is not good.
David: Does that sentiment do any good?
Seth: Does that faith do any good? No-
David: No
Seth: ... it doesn't.
David: Even, does that thing do any good? Does that, you know, like, does him saying-
Seth: Does the action do any good?
David: Does, does him saying, "Be warm and well fed" actually-
Seth: Mm
David: ... do anything?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: No.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's hollow and empty.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's saying, "In the same way," that's a metaphor.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: In the same way, if you just say, "I believe in Jesus"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that could be in, just as empty as saying, "Be warm and well fed"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... if there's nothing behind it.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: He's not necessarily saying like, "If you ever have walked past a poor person"-
Seth: No
David: ... that's not what he's saying.
Seth: No, he's not saying that.
David: Okay. That's helpful. Understanding that hypothetical situation as a metaphor-
Seth: Right
David: ... for he's just trying to get you to understand the correlation between empty words with empty actions.
Seth: Yeah. And I think a lot of people have this idea that faith is just empty words devoid-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of action.
David: Right.
Seth: It's things nice people say to make themselves feel better when they pass a poor person on the street.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, right, that's one way to think about faith.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think it would be beneath what James desires of us to not consider what happens when we pass a poor person.
David: Right. Absolutely.
Seth: Because this is the second... This, this third time, I think, poor-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who are impoverished have been brought up in James. Like, he's inviting us, apparently, his audience had a problem with their relationship with the poor, and he's poking on it as often as he can.
David: Right.
Seth: And even in his sermon about the nature of true faith, which can sound fairly philosophical, he's using the examples of poor people to prove his point.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think what we need to take away from this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... just bottom line, is that faith isn't just well-wishing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's not just hoping something to be true. It's believing something to be true, and then acting like as if it's true. And the fact that Jesus became poor for us should change the way we treat poor people.
David: Right.
Seth: On what, and like, does that mean we meet the needs of every single poor person we come across? I don't think that's humanly possible.
David: Right.
Seth: But we are transformed, our actions are transformed if we truly believe that. If our faith is real, it won't be-
David: Right
Seth: ... dead-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to the impoverishment of other people.
David: Right. It's because w- we've seen now, to go back to last week's episode, we've seen how the grain of the universe runs, and that when we go to the low, when we go-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to the poor, when we go to the socially, economically, culturally dead, and we persevere in that, we get life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So we are showing that we don't believe that cultural narrative-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that King Jesus is telling us functions-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the kingdom when we don't run to the poor, when we don't run to the dead-
Seth: Yeah. That's right
David: ... when we don't run to the least.
Seth: That's right.
David: We're saying like, "No, I actually believe that life comes at, at, inside of the fanciest store in the mall, not on the roadside."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not because I'm trying to earn my salvation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but because there's o- o- grain to the universe. King Jesus said, "Life is on the other side of the dead places on the earth."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "So I'm gonna run there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because I now believe something about the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's true."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, it's like a chair. Like, right, you believe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that a chair will hold you, so you sit in it.
Seth: Yep.
David: If you believe that there's life on the other side of the dead places in the world, you run to them.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so that's really helpful for me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just changes your worldview.
Seth: Right.
David: And you're not living consistently with the worldview you're claiming.
Seth: The value of the kingdom of King Jesus is that we run towards death-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because we know there's life on the other side.
David: Right.
Seth: We run towards poverty because we know there's riches on the other side of it.
David: Right.
Seth: We run towards those things in the kingdom of Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: And true faith, true faith in the kingdom of Jesus, acting like a true citizen means that you won't just say that you believe death-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and its resurrection.
David: Right.
Seth: That Jesus became poor so that we might become rich. You actually act as if those things are true.
David: That's right, yeah. And-
Seth: And mirror them in your own life.
David: Yeah, and there's nothing on the line there about our work saving you.
Seth: No.
David: All that that's doing is saying like, "Is your faith real?"
Seth: Right.
David: I-
Seth: I think people who wanna, like, import like, "So does he say-"
David: Right
Seth: ... like, your work save you? Like, I think you're just misreading James.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's just making a totally different point.
David: Well, it's like, think about, like, somebody who believes the Earth is flat-
Seth: Yep
David: ... isn't going to sail across the ocean.
Seth: Right. Okay, sure.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But as soon as that person was like, "The Earth is round and I'm gonna prove it to you."
Seth: I'm gonna sail off the edge.
David: "I'm gonna sail off the edge."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, if they're like, "No, the Earth's round," and it's like they're gonna call you a wackadoodle until you actually get in the boat-
Seth: Right
David: ... and sail across the horizon.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Then they're like, "Oh, he actually believes this stuff." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: So okay, that's really helpful for me. Thank you for persevering.
Seth: You're-
David: You persevered through my death-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... to get life on the other side. Your faith is real. [laughs]
Seth: So what is true faith? Faith without action isn't faith, it's dead.
David: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Seth: That's the first, like, rock illustration.
David: We're going through the first one. Okay.
Seth: Uh, second illustration.
David: [laughs] Here we go.
Seth: He imagines some imaginary person and dialoguing with him-
David: Okay
Seth: ... about the nature of faith. He's like, "Well"-
David: Wait, are you saying that James had an imaginary friend?
Seth: He had an imaginary friend-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in verse 18 at least.
David: Oh, okay. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, he said, "But someone will say, 'Well, you have faith and I have works.'"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think the way you're supposed to understand this is like, well, aren't faith and works just two sides of the same coin?
David: Mm.
Seth: Isn't, like, the gift of faith one thing, and the gift of serving and hospitality another, and aren't some just naturally gifted at-
David: Ah
Seth: ... believing really strongly that things will happen in the future, and believing that Jesus died and rose, and other people are more doubting, but they're really, live really-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... godly lives by the way they serve the poor? Aren't we just like-
David: Aren't we just splitting hairs? Can't-
Seth: Aren't we splitting hairs?
David: ... can't we just be like, "Oh, y- you guys have your faith, we got our works, it doesn't matter."
Seth: Right. And I think at one level, James is like, "Of course, some people have more faith-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and some people do-"
David: More works
Seth: ... more works.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, of course, that's true.But the point I'm making is that faith produces a certain quality of relationship with God as well. Here's what he says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." And so when I think works, I'm thinking serving the poor, but he's gonna ch- change my expectation about what a work is.
David: Mm.
Seth: Verse 19, "You believe that God is one, and that's well. Even the demons believe that." They have a faith in that of a kind, and they shudder. They're terrified. Period. Exclamation point in my Bible.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I'm like, wait, wait, wait. What happened here? Do you wanna be, should be a foolish person that faith apart from works is useless? And then he goes on to his next point.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: Okay
Seth: ... I wanna make sure-
David: We'll stop here.
Seth: We'll stop here.
David: Okay.
Seth: What did you hear there to make sure that I'm answering-
David: Okay, one-
Seth: ... your questions?
David: Well, one, one thing that was really interesting to me was it, it seemed like the, his imaginary friend that he was dialoguing with was trying to separate faith and works as two different things.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: And he's like, "Try your best to show me faith apart from works."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Just try."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You won't be able to do it."
Seth: Yep.
David: They are two sides of the same coin.
Seth: Right.
David: They're combined. We're talking-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... about the same thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: And you're trying to separate them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into two things.
Seth: Yep.
David: That like, "Oh, yeah, you can have your faith, and I'm gonna have my works" Or like, "You know, we're faith alone."
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like, but we believe that we're saved by works. Like, you can't do this weird separation thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They are one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, and then he's like, "Let me show you what it's like to try to do this." Like, uh, uh, right?
Seth: Yeah. "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I'll show you my faith by my works." It feels really confusing. Like, what is he talking about?
David: Right.
Seth: What work is he... Is he still, still talking about serving the poor? Which is why I think verse 19 about the demons is so interesting. This seems to be the, the point that he's driving at.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause he moves on to a topic about Abraham next.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so, again, "You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe, and shudder." What's wrong with the demons' right knowledge about God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and their wrong work of shuddering?
David: Okay.
Seth: Like that... Like so like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he's like giving us an example of faith and works. Demons' faith that God is one, demons shuddering, their work.
David: Oh. Oh, hold on. Oh, hold on. Now I'm so confused.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So are you saying that... I've never heard that before, that the shuddering of the demons is their works that come out of their faith. If James's point is faith and works are intrinsically tied together, you cannot-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... separate them ever.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, and it makes total sense, it makes empirical sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What you believe, you do.
Seth: Yep.
David: We can't operate any other way than that.
Seth: Yep.
David: Like, I believe in gravity-
Seth: Therefore-
David: ... so I don't jump off cliffs.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: I, I don't do that. So what you're saying is the demons believe God is one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's, that's part of like the, uh, Shema-
Seth: That's the Shema
David: ... from the Old Testament.
Seth: From Deuteronomy 6. It was the one of the foundational catechisms-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like liturgical response that the people of God were supposed-
David: That's right
Seth: ... to say every day-
David: So-
Seth: ... that way-
David: So like they, they have this... They are good Jews.
Seth: They're good Jews in a sense.
David: In a sense.
Seth: They're orthodox.
David: They believe God is one. But because they're shuddering, maybe what they believe, their faith, the, the substance of their face, faith is wrong?
Seth: Yes.
David: Is that what you're getting at?
Seth: That's exactly what I'm getting at.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: In the Book of Deuteronomy, this is Deuteronomy, uh, 6:4, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Oh, this is what the demons believe.
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is what all good Jews believe.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: What's next? Love-
David: Oh
Seth: ... the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your strength. What is the first work of faith? To love-
David: Love
Seth: ... God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Why is the demons' faith incomplete?
David: Because they shudder instead of love.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Oh.
Seth: So what is true faith? True faith doesn't just produce good works towards those that need it. It pro- which is love your neighbor.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: It also produces love towards God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Demons have a deficient faith because they fail to do the primary work of faith, which is to love God, who saves humanity by dying on the cross. They failed to love him. So let's work backwards a little bit. Look at verse 18 again.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Show me your faith apart from your works." And so let's just assume that means love for the moment. "Show me your faith apart from your love, and I will show you my faith by my love."
David: Mm.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's really interesting. And then let's go back one more verse. "But some will say, 'You have faith and I have love.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: That just doesn't make sense.
David: It break... It, it, it makes it a lot more, uh, like stark.
Seth: Right. It's like, oh, that just doesn't... True faith, what does must it produce?
David: Love.
Seth: Love towards neighbor and towards God. What is the royal law of the kingdom of King Jesus?
David: Oh, which you just-
Seth: Love-
David: ... yes
Seth: ... love God and love neighbor. Where are we? We're in the kingdom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the smartest king in the universe, and he has decided to rule his kingdom with a set of laws easily summed up as love God and love neighbor. And the way that you be a good citizen, the way that you trust that this kingdom is the best kingdom, the way that you trust and have faith in King Jesus, is acting as if those things are true and lovely and beautiful. Love your neighbor. Provide for their needs. Have faith that God is one, that he is the smartest one in the universe, and love him for it. [gentle music]
David: Changing works to love, which I think you've proven is fair-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because, like, right before this passage, he does the royal law thing, love your neighbor, right?
Seth: Mm.
David: And then in the deficient version of the demons' Shema, the thing that's missing is love.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I think that's really fair for you to do
Seth: It changes the whole dynamic of this- the sting of this passage and doesn't make it, like, theologically offensive to-
David: [laughs] Right. Faith alone. No, my reformed sensibilities are on the line.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: It makes it more to like "Oh, yeah, that's so obviously true," which is the... His tone is saying, like, "Can I just tell you something really obvious? You can't have faith without love."
Seth: Y- yes.
David: Right, like that just... And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'm on Team Jacob. I mean, James." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yes. Right.
David: And it's like, but when you add the word works into it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's my own fault, and probably a lot of people listening, like, it's our own fault that we're bringing in the connotations of meritorious salvation earning works.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's not on the line at all here. It's in none of the context, but the word works is a tripping up for me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to be like, "Okay, is it faith alone, or are you earning your salvation?" Those are the categories.
Seth: Right.
David: And for me, James has always been trying to put those together.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? But that's not really what he's doing.
Seth: It would-
David: Because I'm importing both of those-
Seth: Right
David: ... categories. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. I mean, it may be to put your own problems in verse 18, "But some will say, 'You are saved by faith alone,' and others say, 'I'm saved by love alone.'"
David: Oh, right.
Seth: I'm like-
David: That doesn't even make sense either
Seth: ... it doesn't, it doesn't even make sense.
David: Yeah, so I wanted to see... I just pulled up what the word works is here in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the Greek, and I've pulled up a little dictionary. And it is interesting, first off, that the word is ergon.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's a connotation there that was usually given to benefactors.
Seth: Okay.
David: That the work of a benefactor was-
Seth: Providing for the needs of somebody who has less.
David: Right.
Seth: Example one.
David: Example one.
Seth: Okay.
David: But then the second one is really interesting, too, because the word ergon doesn't mean works here. It means practical proof or a manifestation.
Seth: Interesting.
David: That show me faith without proof.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Show me faith without it being manifested.
Seth: Right.
David: You can't do that.
Seth: Right. That's part of the definition of the word.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that, that, that clears up a lot.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I'm just trying to get behind this l- loaded word works for me.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause when I just hear works, I just automatically think about trying to earn your salvation, which we started Spoken Gospel to try to fight against that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... very lie. So I'm like, I'm just so triggered.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's like, if works is aiming at something different, which it clearly is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it, it seems to be one of the lexical glosses is, is-
Seth: Just a practical proof
David: ... proof, practical proof.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Show me faith without practical proof is what he's getting at here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And love-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is one of the practical manifestations of faith.
Seth: Right.
David: So I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we're sniffing at something really cool here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's helpful.
Seth: And I mean, again, practical proof of good works. We've been given the definition of good works in the royal law of King Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Love God, love neighbor.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What are, are the good works in God's kingdom?
David: Love.
Seth: Loving God and loving neighbor. That's what's on the line for James.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You can't have faith in the royal King Jesus without living His laws out.
David: Yep. He's not saying, "Show me faith by earning it."
Seth: No.
David: He's saying, like, "I can't really see in your head or your heart. I don't have X-ray vision."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? "So how am I going to experience what you believe and what you feel and what you think about this world, and if you are really a citizen of the kingdom? It's gonna be by the proof."
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just, like, how you live. It's not a meritorious earning. It's an inevitable outworking.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm, I'm following.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
David: So, okay, ready for the third example.
Seth: I'm still not over the demons.
David: The demons [laughs]
Seth: And their incomplete shama.
David: [laughs] But sure, let's move on to the third one. [laughs]
Seth: Let's, let's, let's move on. Okay, so, so far we have two points of contact.
David: Okay.
Seth: Faith without love towards your neighbor-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is not real faith.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Faith without love towards God-
David: Oh
Seth: ... not real faith.
David: That's really helpful.
Seth: Right.
David: Thanks, thanks for that.
Seth: So, like, that's what's on the line.
David: Let's tuck that one away.
Seth: Um, not real faith. Verse 21. Now, he's gonna give us two examples-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... uh, Abraham and Rahab, of people who were saved by a faith that was not alone but, but saved by works.
David: Okay.
Seth: It says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see, faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted him as righteousness, and he was called a friend of God.' You see, a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
David: Oof.
Seth: So, like, but I think we're... Like, that makes more sense to me.
David: It does.
Seth: I, I'm not importing false categories of what faith is anymore.
David: I'm still trying not to do that.
Seth: And I'm trying not to import false categories of what works are.
David: Right.
Seth: So yeah, true faith is faith that loves our neighbor and has a real love for God. So I'm, I've been primed to hear this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the way that James wants me to hear it. But if you don't know the story of Abraham really well, this story won't make a ton-
David: Okay
Seth: ... what he's doing is not gonna make a whole bunch of sense to you.
David: So, so what is he trying to do with this story then?
Seth: He's trying to prove his main point-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that a mere belief in a set of ideas, mere well-wishing or mere belief without love is not real faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he says Abraham is a perfect example of this, who didn't merely believe something, but we're told he became a friend of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that he was saved when he worked-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not when he simply believed.
David: When he put Isaac on the altar.
Seth: When he put Isaac on the altar. And so what's funny about that story is he quotes from Genesis 15, which is what he quotes here when he says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And everyone points to that moment. It's like, that's when he was justified. That's when he was made a friend of God, when he believed only.
David: Mm.
Seth: Nothing else, no good works.
David: Right.
Seth: This is what Paul says-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Galatians, right? But it's several years, maybe decades-Until Isaac is born
David: Mm.
Seth: And Abraham puts him on the altar.
David: Oh, I understand.
Seth: So you have to ask the question, what was... For decades, was his faith real?
David: Oh.
Seth: How do we know-
David: I get it
Seth: ... that Abraham actually believed that he would be the father of many nations?
David: Because of the practical proof that came out whenever he put Isaac on the altar.
Seth: Right.
David: Was he justified when that happened? No. He was justified when he believed, but that belief wasn't alone.
Seth: Well-
David: It was like it had this-
Seth: I think-
David: ... content of it that had a practical proof.
Seth: I don't know if James is trying to parse out when the justification happened-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 'cause he says he was justified when he put him on the altar. And the reason why he says that-
David: Oh, darn it
Seth: ... the reason why he says that is because, so in Genesis 15, we're told that he was called righteous, but he believed and it was counted to him as righteous. And we're like, that's justification, right? James is saying, no, no, no, that doesn't happen till Genesis 22, decades after.
David: Ugh.
Seth: But why is the question.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Genesis 22, when he puts Isaac on the altar, an angel comes down to interrupt him. What does the angel say God says? "Now I know-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that you believe me."
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like, God, in acting as a person inhabiting history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... says, "It was in that moment that I knew you believed me."
David: Right.
Seth: "It wasn't until it was proven by actions-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that I knew you believed me, that your faith was real."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so he's saying that's... Abraham's a perfect example. God didn't know he believed him. I mean, didn't know. You, you-
David: Right
Seth: ... he's like, he's playing with the anthropomorphisms of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, but he's like, God didn't know his faith was real until he was willing to put faith, put actions to his faith.
David: Right.
Seth: Abraham was not justified by a faith that was alone. He was justified by his works.
David: [exhales]
Seth: By his works meaning the proving.
David: The, the acting. Yeah, the proving-
Seth: The acting out of
David: ... the belief.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right. Oh, man. Why am I having so much trouble with this?
Seth: I think the Protestant Reformation-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... was, was great.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, I'm not Catholic for that reason, [laughs] you know? Like-
David: Yeah. Right, right, sure
Seth: ... um, but it does... it's not without its blind spots.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the way in which our works are a necessary part-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the way that we live in King Jesus's kingdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is something that I've struggled with ever since I've really started to embrace and think deeply about theology proper.
David: Right.
Seth: And so, like, I'm s- I struggle with, like, well, how does that work out? Like, why am I getting rewarded in heaven for good works I've done if they don't matter if-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... for, to save me? Like, I have, like, an insufficient theology of works-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of, like, what they do, how they operate within-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the mind of God. And, like, I think he, James is just being more biblical than me.
David: Okay, so I'm thinking two things. I'm like, one, the, I can intuit this really well.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Right? Like, we ha- we all have, like, friends or former coworkers or people we went to school with or relatives-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... right, that we look at, and we're like, "I know they, like, say they're a Christian, but I look at their life-
Seth: Mm-hmm, right
David: ... and I know they don't actually believe in Jesus."
Seth: Yep.
David: Like, m- And, and you're not waiting for them to finally make a confession 'cause you ask 'em. You know, like, "Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Jesus-"
Seth: Yeah, sure.
David: "... his son, they died?" "Oh, yeah, totally." But you know that's insufficient.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're like, "I'm just ready for you to change your life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I just know you don't really believe it." We call that a nominal Christian.
Seth: Yeah, and it's not real Christian.
David: Right. It's not a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... real Christian. It's a nominal Christian.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, we, we intuit that all the time in these big polls that get taken across America. How many Christians are there in America? And we, like, try to-
Seth: Depends how you define Christian.
David: Exactly. We try to account for nominality, where it's like, how many of those are real Christians, though?
Seth: Right.
David: And we make these distinctions-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not based off of what is the content of your faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, in terms of what are the things that you have verbally and mentally assented to as true-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but in the, have those made a difference in your life?
Seth: Right. Do you live like you actually belong to a different kingdom-
David: Right
Seth: ... with a different set of values and a different set of laws?
David: Right. It's just like, I just don't think you're a Christian. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know, like how, in how you live. So, like, that makes sense on one hand.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The thing on the other side that's just nagging at me is I think, like you said, the Protestant Reformation, all that kind of stuff that's in my head is, but how does that not rob this moment where you just put your, your heart and your, your faith, your trust-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Jesus alone, and you're just like, you know what? I know I can't do it. I know I'm a sinner.
Seth: Mm.
David: I know the only way out of this hole is through what Jesus did for me on the cross.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And my only pathway to life is his death and resurrection.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in that moment, I'm, I've given it to Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I think, like, I just have, like, Calvin's Institutes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, ringing in my head about, like, he just goes through every single possible thing that we could try to add to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... our involvement in that equation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he just, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... nips it in the bud every time.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And I mean, I wept the first time I read that in Calvin's Institutes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause it's just like, I have nothing to give to this relationship.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's faith alone.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's really a beautiful doctrine.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that's the other thing I'm just, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... holding onto. Help me. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. We don't just give God our trust.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He gives us His Spirit.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I think this is probably the other si- James isn't, isn't talking about this.
David: Okay.
Seth: Let's just name. Like, we're, we're going a little opposite. How does my personal experience line up with this? Okay, great. I think we're also given God's Spirit to do what? To empower us to do what we weren't able to do 24 hours ago-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to actually do the thing-
David: Right
Seth: That we are called to do as citizens of this new kingdom.
David: Right, there's a reason why in that scenario I painted I called out to Jesus and said, "I'm in this hole, and the only way out of it is if I trust in you."
Seth: Right.
David: Why am I in a hole? 'Cause I keep doing stupid things-
Seth: Right
David: ... that I need to stop doing and want to stop doing, and I don't have the power to stop doing them.
Seth: Yep.
David: And now I've been given the Holy Spirit to actually stop doing those hole-digging things.
Seth: Yeah, Jesus Christ picks you up out of the hole, which you couldn't do by yourself.
David: Right.
Seth: And he places you in his kingdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and he says, "And here I'm gonna write my perfect royal law on your heart."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Loving God and loving neighbor. And if he does that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... these things happen-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because they are now a part of the empowering presence of God who lives inside of you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It doesn't take away from it, say, oh, this is the complete picture.
David: Right.
Seth: What am I saved for? Like, I'm saved to experience God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... one on one and in a community, yes. For what purpose? To be a member of his kingdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that pushes back the darkness of our world, transforming it-
David: Right
Seth: ... as we love God and love neighbor.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that wasn't possible before.
David: Totally. The other thing that I stumbled onto as I was explaining this sinner's prayer moment-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... or whatever, like, I alm- I was like, I could probably just stop myself right now and answer my own question, but I'm gonna let Seth respond [laughs] anyway.
Seth: [laughs]
David: As I, as I was saying it, I was like, oh, I see what James is getting at. 'Cause if I'm like, and I just put my faith in Jesus and I give him my whole heart, how do I know that what I've done is real?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, people ask that question all the time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How do I know that what I've done is actually real?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What's the practical proof of my faith? Is it that I walked an aisle? Is it that I put a hand up? And people always-
Seth: Is it that I had a really intense emotional experience with God?
David: Right. And people always go back and question those moments-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause they feel fickle and thin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they're like, "I just don't think that's enough for me to hang my hat on as the practical proof-
Seth: Right
David: ... that I actually put my faith in Jesus."
Seth: Right.
David: But it's like, how do I know that I've thrown myself fully-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into Jesus' hands? Well, it's all the ways throughout the last 20 years of my life that I've made really stupid decisions in the world's eyes that only make sense-
Seth: That's right
David: ... if I'm a citizen of the kingdom, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... saying no to really great jobs because God called me to be a gospel preacher, right? Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's a stupid decision.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it made sense because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I threw my faith in Jesus alone.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I wasn't earning my salvation there, when I did that.
Seth: No.
David: I did it 'cause I, I had to because of my worldview. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, I mean, it's, it's hard.
Seth: Verse 22, "You see that faith was a- active along with his works."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "And faith was completed by his works."
David: Mm.
Seth: Faith is like this generating principle-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... this generating energy-
David: Right
Seth: ... that gives us the capacity to do the things that we're called to do as the-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... citizens of this new kingdom that we're a part of.
David: I plugged in the lamp-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but the proof that electricity's running is that the light bulb turns on.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like-
Seth: And so a lot-
David: You gotta be plugged in
Seth: ... and a lot of Christians plug into the wall socket but don't turn the light on. They-
David: Right
Seth: ... experience the electricity-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they never turn the bulb on.
David: I think, and to James's point, is like, you're actually not plugged into a, a socket with electricity in it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, you can't help, once you plug into that socket with electricity, the light's gonna come on.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that's really interesting. The other thing that I, I thought of too, I think it's, uh, I think it's C.S. Lewis talks about making my joy complete. It's when we give, uh, what's the word?
Seth: Our hearts?
David: Exhalation or like a shout of joy.
Seth: Exaltations.
David: Yeah. It's whenever we, like, go, "Woo-hoo!" Or we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we cheer and exclaim.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That actually completes the joy that we feel in our heart.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so it's like faith is the internal reality that Jesus has saved you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the work is the woo-hoo! [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: Like [laughs]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's the, like, it's the light bulb turning on.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they're, they're so intrinsically connected that you can't separate them.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm mapping on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to this. Okay, what's the-
Seth: So-
David: Is there another one?
Seth: So Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness, and he was called a friend of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You see, a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, last illustration of true faith, was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So unfamiliar with the story of Rahab, Rahab is the first Gentile, the first non-Jewish person in scripture to become a part of the Kingdom of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, so I think it's a really intentional choice that he's chosen Rahab. The first Jew-
David: Was Abraham
Seth: ... the first Gentile was Rahab.
David: Rahab.
Seth: These, all people entered the Kingdom of God the same way.
David: Ah.
Seth: That's what he's saying.
David: Yeah. That's good.
Seth: One's a man, one's a woman, and then one's a part of the people of, like, the, the ethnic people of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and one's not.
David: Right.
Seth: But they all entered the true Kingdom of God the same way-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by their works. Rahab in the story in Joshua believed that God was fighting on Israel's behalf-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and conquering all the nations around her.
David: And we hear her say that. Like-
Seth: She says it
David: ... yeah, she's like, "Oh, we are-"
Seth: "All of our hearts melted within us."
David: That's right. But how do the, the, the Jewish people there know that she actually did fear God?
Seth: Sh- unlike the other people in Jericho who shuddered in fear-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like the demons.
David: Oh, I see what you did there.
Seth: She responds by committing treason against her kingdom-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and throwing her lot in with the Kingdom of Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and harboring two spies.
David: Right.
Seth: Nobody knew her faith was real. She at one point had, was just like everybody else in Jericho.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They all believed that God was coming to destroy them, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Everyone's shaking, everyone's shuddering, everybody knows that God is on the move and they're about to be destroyed, but only one person is actually willing to transfer allegiances-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to the Kingdom of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: She puts her faith into action.
David: Mm.
Seth: She's justified by that work.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And not before that work.
David: Right. It makes me think too of, like-All the disciple calls that Jesus made when he goes and calls a disciple
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: and they realize who he is
Seth: Yeah
David: They don't just go, "Cool, the Messiah's here. We totally believe that you're him."
Seth: Right. Yep.
David: They left their nets-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they followed him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, there's this-
Seth: Yes.
David: Why? 'Cause they knew who he was. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... their worldview changed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so they couldn't help but leave the nets.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, why? Because of something they believed. It's like, if, if I walked in to this podcast room and you had a, like, a jackhammer and a shovel-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and you were just tearing up the floor and, like, digging 10 feet down into the earth, I would be like, "Seth's brain is broken. What happened?" And then I'm like, "Seth, what are you doing?" You will respond with a faith statement. You will say, "There's gold underneath the floor."
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs] Like, and you-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You, you, you learned that there was absolutely gold-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... underneath our podcast floor.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... start digging.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because you learned something, and you had faith-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in it, and you can't help but act-
Seth: Right
David: ... in a certain way.
Seth: And why can't you help but act?
David: Hmm.
Seth: It's because the thing that you're acting upon is preeminently valuable.
David: Right.
Seth: A really fascinating point is that in a lot of the kingdom parables that Jesus gives, it's about the Kingdom of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and it's compared to what? A pearl of great price.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, it's something so costly or so beautiful or so powerful that you can't help but act differently-
David: That's right
Seth: ... because you want that thing. Don't you want to hope that you've been transferred out of the kingdom of your pit-
David: Mm. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and put into a kingdom of the smartest king to ever have ruled?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the law of the kingdom is love God and love your neighbor-
David: Mm
Seth: ... without end. Don't you want to act like that kingdom is true? Of course you do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So have faith in it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not a faith that's alone, a true faith.
David: Right. Man, it's... Okay, let me word that differently-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I think it might ring more true to me. I think what you're saying is, don't you want your faith to matter?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, don't you want your faith to actually, like, affect your life? I think that's what so many of us have problems with. It's like faith is just something I believe and I go do, but my life is kind of the same. I just wish-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that I had some kind of radical, life-transforming faith that made my life different-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and made me a part of something bigger-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and better and more substantive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like you don't want a faith that's alone-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause that's really boring, and it's-
Seth: It's-
David: ... untransformative and worthless.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's good news that there's practical proof of that faith-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because that's a faith that's alive. I think that's what we all want-
Seth: Yeah. Well-
David: ... is a faith that's alive
Seth: ... what's funny is that you're just using these words, like, extemporaneously, talking off the top of your head.
David: Oh.
Seth: But what verse 26 says, "Just as the body, apart from the Spirit-
David: Oh my gosh
Seth: ... is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, faith without works is like a s- body without a soul.
David: Right, it's just dead.
Seth: It's just, it's dead.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not living. It's not the real thing. It's not a real body.
David: Right.
Seth: It's... That's not what faith is.
David: Yeah. Well, I think then a l- a lot of what I think a lot of what we are longing for, I think a lot of us have dead faith.
Seth: Yes.
David: And we hate it. We don't want it, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: But we don't know what else to do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "Let your faith be so real in your heart and so trusted in in your soul-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that it just necessarily bears practical proof in your life."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And it will be such good news to you because you'll start seeing your faith-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... out in the world."
Seth: And here's the easiest practical... Everyone loves the Book of James 'cause it's practical. What does it look like to have real faith, then?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Walk towards suffering.
David: Hmm.
Seth: "Count it all joy, my brothers-
David: Right
Seth: ... when you count... experience trials of various kinds." Abrahams was justified when he was willing to sacrifice his son.
David: Ooh.
Seth: Rahab was justified when she became a traitor to her own people. To bear the burdens of the orphans and the widows and the poor is to actually take on the cost of caring for them s- on you to care for them.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, and what did Jesus do? He carried our sins on the cross. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to walk towards suffering of other people, and you'll have this living faith. Walk to the deadness of other people, and you will be brought up the other side. This is the whole thing James is talking about. Like, you can't help but experience true resurrection life in God's kingdom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when you walk towards, in faith, true faith, towards the people that are dying. Because what does your faith say? That when you walk towards the dying in faith, they resurrect.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? Like, that's the pattern-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of King Jesus, the wisdom of th-
David: Okay. Hold on.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You're doing something really interesting here. You're bringing Jesus into this. I've never, I've never thought about Jesus having any of these categories, faith and works.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... Jesus didn't have faith. He's the God we have faith in. [laughs]
Seth: We have faith in. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But it's like, okay, but I'm, like, thinking about his life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now, like, Jesus had faith.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? He believed-
Seth: That God was one
David: ... that God was one, right?
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah. I mean, but, like, he's like, "I never do anything without my father revealing it to me. Like, I only ever do what my father does." He, and he had, he had to have faith that going to the cross would actually do something. And I think at the end of the day, if he's the smartest king who ever lived, which he is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... then he knew, he had faith in who he was-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who God the Father was, that he's good, that he saves the world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that, like, he loves everyone.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he also knew that... He, he was with God in the beginning when they conspired to build the g- the universe the way they did, that seeds are gonna have to die in order to grow into trees-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that death is going to precede resurrection life. He knew that to be true. He had f- that faith.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: But if all Jesus did was believe that-In his brain, we wouldn't have the gospel [laughs].
Seth: Yeah, Jesus didn't save us by faith alone.
David: Oh, I, okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: Jesus-
David: That's what I'm getting at. Yeah [laughs] go ahead.
Seth: Jesus didn't save us by faith alone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He-
David: Oh, oh
Seth: ... he went to death-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to raise us up.
David: What if God only had warm wishes for us? [laughs]
Seth: Right. That's exactly right.
David: "Be warm and well fed down there." He becomes a Greek god.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He just is just com-
Seth: "I hope your sins are forgiven."
David: Yep, "Hope your... Oh, man, love you."
Seth: "I hope God's justice doesn't rain fire down on you."
David: "Love you, bro." [laughs] Like, that would be really bad news if God just had sentiments for us.
Seth: Right.
David:And we would say then, wouldn't we say this? We would say that if He said that He loves us, and He said that He cares for us, He said He wants us to be saved, but never did anything about it, we would say, "You don't actually believe that God."
Seth: That's a dead God.
David: Right.
Seth: That's no god worth following.
David: Right. But because His work was a part of His faith and His beliefs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... then we get the gospel. He actually came and showed us in flesh and blood that He loves us so much that He would die for us, that He put His faith into action, and just like Isaac was the, uh, uh, Abraham putting Isaac on the altar was the moment that Abraham was justified, God putting Himself on-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the altar of the cross in the person of Jesus was the moment that we are justified and that His, His-
Seth: We become friends of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We love Him. Right, yeah.
David: Oh.
Seth: At the end of all this, how do, what is true faith? What, like, what's a good working definition of true faith?
David: Oh, that's the question I asked at the beginning. [laughs]
Seth: It comes full circle-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... at Spoken Gospel Podcast. [laughs]
Seth: Um, the way that I said it, and I'm sure every- you could quibble with it, but, like, faith is a lifelong embodied and emotional response to what God has promised us.
David: Mm, yeah.
Seth: Uh, God has promised us resurrection after death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And faith is believing that's true and living like it's true with our bodies and our emotions-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for our entire life. And where do we see this more clearly than in Jesus? Jesus was promised resurrection from the dead, and so He became a life. He became a body.
David: Mm.
Seth: He experienced emotions. He l- spent His life walking towards the dying to raise them up in the end.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jesus didn't save by faith alone.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's good news.
David: Yeah, that's good news. Okay, let me, let me try.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Let me try. Uh, s- I don't know if I can do it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, w- it's good news that we're not saved by faith alone but also by works-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because I don't want a dead faith.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I don't want a dead God.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: I want a living faith and a living God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that only comes about by a faith that is completed by works.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think I can get there.
Seth: You said it.
David: That's good.
Seth: My goal has been accomplished.
David: That's good.
Seth: I can, I can die a happy man. [laughs]
David: [laughs] You know, I'm feeling that. The thing that sealed it for me was thinking about God just saying, "Warm wishes. Kindest regards. Hope everything goes well for you down there." And I'm like, if that's what I expect-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for, like, a, a potential believer to do to God-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, "Oh, yeah, I love you, Lord."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Kindest regards. Can't wait to be with you one day."
Seth: "Thoughts and prayers."
David: "Thoughts and prayers."
Seth: "Kiss, kiss. Hug, hug."
David: And it's like, but you don't actually live like that. Like, that's just-
Seth: Right
David: ... what you're saying is just not real. Like, I want my love for God to be as real as God's love for me.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I wanna live in that kingdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I wanna come alive in it. Why? 'Cause I think, like, the more I see my faith play out in the real world through the practical proof of love-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the more I'm gonna see the grain of the universe, the more I'm gonna experience the truth that death and suffering lead to resurrection and life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I just want more of that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What are you thinking as we close out? Anything else?
Seth: Man, I think, I think I said all my thoughts.
David: You got your thoughts out.
Seth: I think I got my thoughts out.
David: That's good.
Seth: Uh-
David: That's also good news. [laughs]
Seth: It's also great news. You can stop listening to me, everybody. The podcast is over.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Seth is done talking.
David: Well, I am pleasantly pleased with this journey, so thank you for that. Um, thank you guys, too, for listening.
Seth: Yes. Thank you.
David: And, uh, we will see you all next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]