Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, Seth, how are you today?
Seth: I'm okay.
David: Good.
Seth: I've had allergies.
David: Well, it's, allergies have been bad right now.
Seth: I've like, I've never had allergies this bad, so I've just been like laid out-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all with stuffy noses, so.
David: Are you on the mend right now?
Seth: I am on the mend. You might hear me sniffle a couple times-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and put a tissue to my face. P- dear podcast listener, don't mind me.
David: Fair [laughs] enough. I mean, you know, it's all part of the process.
Seth: It's all, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're all humans, slowly dying.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Waiting for the day of the Lord. [laughs]
David: Waiting for the day of the Lord, which is our rock solid segue into the Book of Joel. So yeah, we're in the Book of Joel. Um, and, uh, this is, uh, one of the minor prophets. Uh, if you're coming into the Book of Joel kind of like maybe not knowing much about the book, or maybe you've got a f- maybe you're, you know, a really good Bible reader and you know that maybe Peter quotes it in Acts 2.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, or maybe like Paul quotes it when he talks about everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Maybe you're a really a- adept Bible reader-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but you're coming to this and you're like, "I don't really know what Joel's about."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why, why, like what should be the thing here that people have in their heads about the Book of Joel?
Seth: I mean, the thing that the Book of Joel is about is something called the Day of the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's a, it's an Old Testament word to describe when the Lord comes towards the earth to either judge Israel's enemies-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or to bring mercy towards Israel itself, and restore Israel back to either former glory, or it's like Edenic glory.
David: Mm.
Seth: Get it back to the Garden of Eden. Like, that's the Day of the Lord. And it's hinted at kind of throughout the Biblical narrative-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like starting all the way back in Egypt, but also, um, throughout the major and minor prophets, the Day of the Lord is like talked about. But Joel is the one who kinda goes all in on it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and kind of give us the deepest understanding of what the Day of the Lord could be, and how it might work. So like if you don't understand the Book of Joel, maybe that's like another way to say like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so what's on the line if we don't get Joel in our, in our systems?
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: If we don't have Joel in our systems, what do we miss out on? Like, if you don't have Joel in your system, you're not going to understand why Jesus is coming again at the end of the time, at the end of time.
David: Mm.
Seth: So like-
David: Or like why he didn't just come once.
Seth: Right.
David: That's- It's very confusing
Seth: ... right. Why didn't Joel-
David: That's helpful.
Seth: Why didn't Jesus just come one time?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then fix it all then.
David: [laughs] That's such a good question.
Seth: Uh, and Joel's gonna start to answer that for you. [laughs]
David: That's good. That's helpful.
Seth: And I, I, this one's kind of a minor thread through Joel.
David: In the minor prophet. [laughs]
Seth: In the minor prophets, but Joel was written in response to a natural disaster.
David: Right.
Seth: So even as like COVID is winding down for us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... this is an interesting time to reflect on a book written in a time of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... natural disaster, in corporate, national death, wailing, and devastation.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Everyone is sad.
Seth: Everyone is sad [laughs] in Joel.
David: And they're like, "What is going on?" And then Joel steps in and answers the question.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. That's, that's good.
Seth: Although they were locusts, not a virus.
David: Not a virus. [laughs]
Seth: But-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... ah, potato, potato.
David: You know. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: COVID, cicada. [laughs]
Seth: Same thing.
David: Okay, cool. I mean, and did you hear about the, uh, the like 14 or 17-year dormant cicadas that are about to swarm the East Coast?
Seth: Oh, God. No.
David: Oh, yeah, it's supposed to be like the, like the-
Seth: The loudest summer [laughs] in history.
David: Yeah, no. Yeah, like in 17 years. Like they've been breeding underground and stuff. And like so many of their over, like, like their breeding cycles are overlapping, and this is the year that it hits.
Seth: I-
David: And they're supposed to be like 10 times as dense-
Seth: Wow
David: ... or something like that.
Seth: I had no idea.
David: So-
Seth: The, the-
David: The locusts are coming. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Great.
David: It's happening.
Seth: If you guys didn't guess already, Joel, the natural disaster Joel starts with is locusts.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah, which I, you, you, you told me this yesterday.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I didn't know about what a locust was.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I thought it was like, just like a, a separate, entirely separate insect.
Seth: No, it's just a grasshopper that whenever it gets around other grasshoppers, the vibration of the other grasshoppers causes it to metamorph- metamorph-
David: What?
Seth: ... into another, not another species, but a totally different form of itself.
David: Like it Hulks out?
Seth: Yes, exactly right. [laughs]
David: Like gamma radiation.
Seth: Like it gets larger, it changes colors, it grows different body parts. Like-
David: What?
Seth: ... it is a totally different animal be, by virtue of just being around other locusts. It's so cool.
David: So it-
Seth: It's crazy.
David: Yeah, and so locusts-
Seth: It's about-
David: ... like, locusts in the, in the ancient world especially, I mean, they're still completely devastating today. Uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, but like especially in the ancient world when your whole, uh, livelihood is based around crops-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to have a swarm of something that eats crops-
Seth: Is a big deal
David: ... is a huge deal.
Seth: Well, I was even researching just locusts in general. [laughs]
David: Yeah, apparently.
Seth: Like ap- apparently like in a lot of places where locusts are more common, so Middle East-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Africa, uh, you, it's a hard to, a natural disaster to plan for, because-
David: Oh
Seth: ... it happens once every 20 years, 30 years, maybe 50 years. So there's no f- public funds to like solve the problem.
David: Mm.
Seth: So even in modern countries or failed, developing countries, like it's still devastating-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because there's just no way to handle the mass deforestation, the mass crop shortages of an entire season's worth of like goods.
David: Totally.
Seth: So it's, it's a kind of a crazy thing.
David: Yeah. So Israel has just experienced that.
Seth: Yes.
David: They have had their crops eaten down to nothing from a huge locust plague.
Seth: Yeah, here's the first four chapter, four verses of Joel.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Hear this, you elders. Give ear, all inhabitants of the land. Such a thing ha- happened in your day... Has such a thing happened in your days or in the days of your fathers? Tell of this to your children. Let your children tell their children, their children to another generation."
David: So, so nothing like this has really ever happened before, and it's so big you're gonna be talking about it for decades to come.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: "What the cutting locust left-The swarming locust has eaten. What the swarming locust left, the hopping locust has eaten. And what the hopping lo- locust left, the destroying locust has eaten.
David: It's like four waves of locusts.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, the first one comes like, okay, I mean, they ate pretty much everything, but there's still a little bit left, and then another one comes. Okay, wait, there's still the stalks left.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, oh, never mind. Everything's gone.
Seth: No. It's all just totally destroyed. And so Joel is a prophet-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... responding to this and helping Israel make sense of this natural disaster.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so, like, even just to start, nobody knows who Joel is.
David: Yeah, or when Joel was written.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, there are some internal clues and, and scholars make guesses, but that's really the best we have, is educated guesses. Even one commentator I was reading who felt like he had some pretty firm boundaries of understanding-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... whe- when Joel was written gave about a 90-year range. [laughs]
Seth: He's just like, "We don't know." [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, Jo- the only identifying marker we're told of Joel, he's the son of Pethuel.
David: Oh, Pethuel? I, I know Pet- [laughs]
Seth: Don't know who Pethuel is.
David: We don't know who that is. [laughs]
Seth: It's just, he's just Joel-
David: Right
Seth: ... son of Pethuel, who was apparently a prophet helping people make sense of this natural disaster.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So there's a couple ways that you could- that even that piece of information is helpful for you as you read through the Book of Joel. One, Joel- Joel's like achrono- chrono- chronol-
David: Chronological
Seth: ... chronological-
David: Achronological
Seth: ... place- placement-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kinda thin- can make you think of him as, like, the prophet of prophets, the CliffsNotes of the prophets.
David: Mm, like a s- a synopsis.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A, a synthesizer. He's taking all the information that the, the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... prophets have thought of in Ezekiel, in Zephaniah, in Isaiah, and he-
David: Amos
Seth: ... Amos, and he quotes all of them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... throughout his whole book, and he's saying, "Here's the CliffsNotes version. If you're to take everything all the other prophets are saying about the day of the Lord and the way that we should respond to natural disaster and expect coming judgment-
David: Mm
Seth: ... here it is in three chapters."
David: Mm.
Seth: And the fact that there are so few details about his life or when it was written is by virtue of the fact that he's giving you the CliffsNotes of all the major and minor prophets.
David: Right, that and he's wanting it to be a repeatable, like, liturgy-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that people could go through regardless of time.
Seth: Yeah, any time there's a natural disaster-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you could read Joel. Any time an enemy army's coming against you, whether a locust or a, a physical one-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you could read Joel, lament, repent, and ask the Lord for mercy.
David: Okay.
Seth: But-
David: That's good.
Seth: Yeah, and I kinda like that reading of it, too-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because it means that, okay, so that means there's actually a practical use next time there's a tsunami.
David: Mm.
Seth: Next time as the pandemic rolls on. Like, Joel has a usefulness in my life as a meditation during a time of natural- national mourning-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... over natural disasters.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, so as you guys engage, read through the Book of Joel, keep those categories in mind.
David: Yeah, totally. Okay, so, uh, we've talked about Joel being achronological-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in, in terms of history.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, so it's kinda like messing with time a little bit there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the Book of Joel itself, uh, in its contents messes with time too-
Seth: It does
David: ... because almost without knowing, you know, if, unless you're paying really close attention, he switches from talking about the past to the future-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then he changes the future from something bad to something good, and then he talks about a future future.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's like, help me lay out the structure for everybody-
Seth: Okay
David: ... 'cause this is... it could get confusing.
Seth: So let's go back to the day of the Lord.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, the day of the Lord is a day either of the Lord's judgment against Israel's enemies or mercy towards Israel in which he'll restore Israel back to her former glory or back-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the Garden of Eden.
David: And it can be both.
Seth: And it can be both.
David: At the same time.
Seth: And that's kind of what Joel really, like, pushes in for us at the very end. Like, those two things can happen simultaneously.
David: And the, and... well, I guess before we get to the structure, something that'd be helpful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is a, a good me- like, paradigm for people to have in their heads for, well, how can a day of the Lord be both good and bad-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is something Joel picks up on is Egypt, is the plagues of Egypt, which also had-
Seth: Yes
David: ... locusts, right?
Seth: Yeah. Well, maybe we, before we talk about the structure of Joel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, let's just keep talking about the locusts for a second.
David: Right.
Seth: Locusts are actually a really common, like, device in scripture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the first time we see locusts is in the Exodus story-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when God is saving Israel from the oppressive Egyptians, and he sends them as a way to judge E- Egypt for their failure to listen to God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and a way to secure for Israel a way out of slavery and into their own promised land.
David: Right, like the pl- the 10 plagues, one of which is a plague of locusts-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... both judges Egypt and saves Israel-
Seth: Yep
David: ... because it, yeah, it, it, it gives them a way out. So, like, that's how a day of the Lord can be both good and bad.
Seth: Both things. Yeah, and e- this is a weirder one, but we talked about this in the Joshua podcast.
David: Mm.
Seth: But back in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, God promises that he'll send insects-
David: Oh
Seth: ... in front of the Israelite army to drive out the Canaanites.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's a judgment against Israel's enemies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but also a day of mercy and salvation for them because they can come in behind the departed Canaanites-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and rest in the land.
David: Okay, that makes sense.
Seth: So there's this idea that insects as a plague-
David: Mm
Seth: ... equal a day of the Lord's judgment against Israel's enemies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and a day of mercy for Israel, and the Bible picks up this imagery again in the Book of Revelation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So locusts appear again in your Bibles, and they'll quote the Book of Joel in the Revelation, I believe, 9 and 7, and it uses the same imagery here, but it's heightened up and ratcheted up to these, like, crazy proportions.
David: Mm.
Seth: These locusts are the size of horses, and they've got, like, human faces and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... long hair. They're crazy. But they're quoting, "and lion's teeth"-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... which is the way, which is the way Joel actually describes it in chapter one.
David: Mm.
Seth: He says they have teeth or l- their teeth are lion's teeth, and they-
David: Oh
Seth: ... have the fangs of lionesses, and they lay waste my vine and fig tree.
David: So the, the author of Revelation is picking up on Joel.
Seth: Right, and he's saying a day of the Lord's mercy and judgment is coming again at the end of time.
David: Mm. Mm.
Seth: And he's pulling that idea from Joel.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: So yeah, that's really interesting.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, so, uh, if, if you're kinda walking through the Biblical narrative and you hear about a day of the Lord, you hear about a plague of insects-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you're thinkingUm, great, God's gonna judge the enemy and save Israel.
Seth: That's right.
David: But we get to Joel and the script is reversed.
Seth: Right.
David: And that is what the people are struggling to understand.
Seth: Yeah, because this plague of locusts hasn't come against Israel's enemies, it's come against herself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so most of Joel is just des- Joel chapter one at least, is describing the chaos that comes after this thing of locusts. As I said before, the, the vine has been laid waste. The fig tree is splintered. The bark has been stripped down. Ah, lament, virgins who've not yet been married. Ah, priests mourn because you can, there's no food for you to offer-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the temple anymore. He even says drunks get sad because you're gonna have no more wine anymore.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He's like there, there's not one aspect of society, farmers, drunks, priests, virgins, everyone is mourning over the devastation that's caused by this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... famine. And he mentions that it's a famine in the land, and then behind the famine there's a fire.
David: Mm.
Seth: So now that all the greenery is gone and you're in the oppressive Middle Eastern summer heat-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a fire comes. Ah, verse 19 of chapter one, "To you, O Lord, I call for fire has devoured the pastures of the wilderness. The flame has burned all the trees of the field and even the beasts of the field pant for you because the water brooks are dried up."
David: I mean, that's, it's really, that's really intense. But, ah, what's weird about Joel, and correct me if I'm wrong-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is normally wh- when something like this happens, like I'm thinking about Lamentations-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you hear all this terrible stuff that's going on, and then the author will be like, "And this is because of our sins," or the prophet is like, "And this is because you have neglected the house of the Lord, O Israel," or whatever.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we're not told, like, why this is happening, right?
Seth: No, we're just told that it happened.
David: It's so weird.
Seth: So Israel is wha... So the day of the Lord implies-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Israel's done something wrong.
David: Sure.
Seth: Like-
David: 'Cause God's not capricious. He's not just gonna do something because-
Seth: Right
David: ... he can.
Seth: And even in Deuteronomy 28, ah, verse, what is it? 38.
David: Mm.
Seth: One of the covenant curses-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... so if you break the covenant, is that God promises he'll send locusts-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... to devour your fields.
David: So, like, the, we are given a reason back-
Seth: All the way in Deuteronomy
David: ... in Deuteronomy.
Seth: But here it's implicit.
David: Right.
Seth: We have all this destruction that's happening, and we're told that's one possible consequence-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of breaking the Torah, but we don't know which-
David: Right
Seth: ... reason.
David: Right.
Seth: And all that Joel tolls, tells Israel to do, and the only explanation he gives is, "Lament and repent-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the Lord will relent."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's kind of like the only hope he offers.
David: Did you just write my poem for me?
Seth: I probably did.
David: Repent and lament-
Seth: What
David: ... and the Lord will-
Seth: Relent
David: ... relent. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] That's pretty solid.
David: We should write that down.
Seth: We sh- we could write that down somewhere.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, yeah, and that's kind of chapter one is like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... this is the devastation that's come against Israel. They've done something wrong, but we don't know what. Joel is happy to leave it unnamed for the time being, and in fact, he never names it. And Israel is reckoning with the fact that God is judging them for something, and they don't precisely know what it is.
David: Mm. Okay. Um, are there any other... Like, when I'm like, I'm just like scanning over Joel 1-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I see like pomegranate and apples-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and all these things, ah, being swallowed up, it reminds me of like Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... imagery.
Seth: It totally should.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because, and maybe this is the time we go into Joel chapter two-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because in Joel chapter two we get a ratcheting up of all the imagery used in Joel chapter one.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in Joel chapter one, you have locusts that are like lions. In Joel chapter two, you have locusts that are like an army.
David: Mm.
Seth: In Joel chapter one, you have figs and pomegranates and all the names of the fruit. And then in Joel chapter two, it's literally called the Garden of Eden.
David: Oh, yeah. Great.
Seth: The land is like the Garden of Eden before them. This is these like escalated locusts, but behind them is a desolated wilderness, and nothing can escape from them.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, the lo- even the way that the locusts are described is ramped up to sound like an army. Their appearance is like that of horses, like a war horse they run. The rumbling is like that of chariots.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like the drone of the locust in the sky is like chariots, like crushing rocks underneath them.
David: Got it. So is he, is, is the author doing that because he's, because Israel is, was supposed to be like the Garden of Eden-
Seth: I-
David: ... a- and like now like they're, it's hopeless, they'll never be that? Or, or-
Seth: I think so
David: ... what else is going on?
Seth: I think it could be that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like Israel imagined itself like the Garden of Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Even like the temple is full of garden imagery.
David: Totally.
Seth: So it's like the, the hope of Israel that it would be a garden.
David: Mm.
Seth: And every time a new tree was planted, a new orchard thrived, more like civilization happened in Israel. It was a, an image of the Garden of Eden expanding from-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God's chosen people. But for a locust to just devastate all that, it's like, it's a reversal of all God's plans.
David: It's like another fall.
Seth: It's like another fall.
David: Mm.
Seth: And even in it, the book of Ezekiel, this is, again, that's a quote from the book of Ezekiel 36-
David: Oh
Seth: ... where Ezekiel promises that Israel will have desolation behind them, but in front of them will be the Garden of Eden.
David: Oh.
Seth: 'Cause they're supposed to be going out and remaking the world.
David: But it's flipped.
Seth: But it's flipped because-
David: And there's, the gar- like the desolation-
Seth: Is
David: ... is in front of them or-
Seth: Is behind them.
David: Behind them.
Seth: The Garden of Eden is in front of them. Yes.
David: But the locusts are eating it all up.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Crazy.
David: So even like the promises of God from Ezekiel seem to be being eaten up as well.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: That's super hopeless.
Seth: Yeah. And so this is, this goes back to also the playing with time thing you mentioned. So-
David: See, I was gonna ask 'cause it's like, okay, so is he just describing the locusts in a different way? Like they were like lions, now they're like an army, and like, but he's describing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the same thing, or is he talking about two different things?
Seth: So as you're reading through Joel, Joel chapter one is describing a past day of the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when some locusts came and just destroyed Israel.
David: A real physical event with real physical locusts causing real physical damage.
Seth: That's exactly right. And then chapter two begins this way, "Blow a trumpet in Zion." Like, "Sound the alarm-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on my holy mountain. Let the inhabitants of the land tremble for the day of the Lord is coming-
David: Ah
Seth: ... and it is near." So Joel says, "Okay."You've seen one day of the Lord
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: Now you should expect a second
David: Mm.
Seth: You should look at the destruction and devastation of this first day of the Lord's judgment and use it as a way to look forward to another day, and an increasingly violent day, of the-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Lord's judgment coming-
David: Gotcha
Seth: ... in the future.
David: Kinda like, uh, back in the Exodus story in Egypt when one plague wa- should have woken-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Pharaoh up to a, a newer and worse plague, and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... it, it didn't. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or the way that Jesus talks about it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Matthew 24. In Matthew 24, Jesus' disciples ask him, "So when are you gonna come back? When is Israel gonna become the nation, the, the nation that it once was again?" So in, uh-
David: Or don't they ask him about-
Seth: 24
David: ... "When will the temple be destroyed?" Isn't that what they ask him?
Seth: Yeah, that's what, that's what I'm try... Okay.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, "Tell us, when will this happen?"
David: Right, and they-
Seth: The, uh-
David: ... talk about the-
Seth: In the temple
David: ... destruction of the temple
Seth: The temple being destroyed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's, that's right. "What's the sign of the coming and the end of the age?" They're thinking about-
David: Well-
Seth: ... the final day of the Lord's judgment.
David: Well, yeah. Well, for them, if Jesus was saying that the temple was going to be destroyed, that would be the end of the world for them.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: That would be a day of the Lord-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like no, none other before it.
David: Right. "So when is that gonna happen?" they're asking.
Seth: And what Jesus does is he, like, He doesn't quote Joel precisely in this, this part, but he will in a second.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But he does what Joel does, and he says, "There's gonna be earthquakes-
David: Mm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... there's gonna be wars, there's gonna be rumors of wars, nations are gonna rise against nation. But all of those things are actually just birth pains."
David: Mm.
Seth: "The greater day of the Lord is coming. You should look at all these natural disasters, these wars, these earthquakes, these rumors of war as harbingers, as omens of a greater day of the Lord yet to come."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, "And I'm, can't tell you that day, when that's gonna happen."
David: Right.
Seth: "But that's the way you should understand and think about that final day of the Lord."
David: Okay. So Joel is saying, like, okay, the locusts that happened in the past should be an indicator that there is going to come a greater day of judgment on Israel in the future.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: In the same way, Jesus was saying, anytime you see a war or earthquake or famine, that should tell you things aren't right.
Seth: Mm.
David: God is judging the world, and it's pointing towards a future day of-
Seth: Right
David: ... worse judgment.
Seth: Yeah. And I grew up in a ti- I grew up reading a whole bunch of books about like, oh, the war in Iraq is, was mentioned in the Book of Daniel, or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you know, 9/11 was prophesied in Revelation, uh, uh, Revelation Chapter 10.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's actually not the way that Jesus would tell you to read-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or Joel would tell you to read current events.
David: That's right.
Seth: Every time you see a war, every time you see a natural disaster, you're supposed to say, "This is like what's to come."
David: It's not, "Oh, this is what is coming." [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: This is, this should just remind me that, oh, that day is still in the future.
Seth: Yes. That's-
David: Not that this is that future day.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Right.
Seth: And so what Joel does is says, "Okay, we've just experienced a natural disaster of locusts. Let me use all that imagery that you're familiar with to point towards that greater day of the Lord's judgment-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that's coming in the future."
David: Right.
Seth: So as I've already said, like, everything that we saw in the past is ramped up. Even the locusts, they become like almost like these cosmic beings.
David: Mm.
Seth: At first, on Chapter 2, Verse 2, they say, "A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like blackness that is spread upon the mountains." Think about billions of locusts just flying over the hilltop. It darkens the sky.
David: Yeah, yeah. Block out the sun.
Seth: It literally darkens the sky.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But Chapter 2, Verse 10, "The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon a- themselves are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. The Lord utters his voice before his army, for his camp is exceedingly great."
David: Oh.
Seth: And so we c- so one, there's an escalation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from the clou- like cloud cover-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to the sun and moon themselves are darkening in front of these locusts.
David: Yeah, and the beat of their wings makes the earth feel like it's quaking.
Seth: And then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we get the line that I just read.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "The Lord utters his voice before his army."
David: So he's the commander-in-chief of this military locust-
Seth: Plague
David: ... campaign. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] I have this image in my mind of like Jesus... [laughs] You know those like crazy propaganda, uh, like posters-
David: Yes
Seth: ... with, it's like there's jet engines and there's like missiles, like the Tony Stark image of like him with-
David: Oh
Seth: ... surrounded by all of his weapons-
David: Yes
Seth: ... coming out, and he's like stoically standing there.
David: You see Jesus [laughs]
Seth: With just billions of locusts like coming out. [laughs]
David: I don't think that's the way people, we normally think of Jesus.
Seth: No, but this is apparently how Joel wants you to think of Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... standing at the front of this locust-like army-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or this army-like locusts, commanding it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... bringing the day of the Lord's judgment.
David: Saying, "Locusts, go here. Locusts, eat this."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And now this, is he talking about more locusts coming? Is he talking about a physical army like the Babylonians coming? Is he talking about like God actually coming with an angelic army and, and act- what, what's going on there?
Seth: I would probably say yes. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Safe bet. Safe bet.
Seth: Because I think, so we don't precisely know when Joel was written.
David: Right.
Seth: But let's just assume it was written before the Babylonian army came and destroyed them.
David: Oh, yeah. Okay.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: That was actually the most profound day of the Lord's judgment in that point in Israel's history.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And it was greater than the drought and famine produced by that first locust.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So Joel's prophesying the future, and it could very well be the fact that Babylon comes and overwhelms-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... them and-
David: Right
Seth: ... overwhelms their army. But again, even that natural disaster points to the fact that there is another day of the Lord coming when an even greater justice will be done, and all Israel's enemies will be defeated-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which we haven't even got to yet.
David: Right.
Seth: But I, so I think, yes, it could be the Babylonian army coming in and-
David: Right
Seth: ... wiping out Israel. It could also be like a final day of the Lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when the Lord comes against Israel for its, and all people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for its sin and injustice and-
David: What we might imagine as the end of, like-
Seth: Which we would imagine as like-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jesus' final coming.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So I think it could be both.
David: All right.
Seth: Um, I think there's a good argument to be made for it specifically the Babylonians.
David: Yeah, I know the, the commentary, the, uh, Wolf that I read, um, and I'm not talking about like a herd of wolves. That's the commentator's name.
Seth: A herd of wolves? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Is that what you call a group of wolves? [laughs] A herd?
David: A herd of a-
Seth: It's a pack.
David: A pack.
Seth: [laughs]
David: A pack of wolves.
Seth: Do you know a bunch of crows is called a murder?
David: Oh, no.
Seth: Do you know a bunch of lemurs is called a mob?
David: Did you know a bunch of giraffes is called a tower?
Seth: Is it really?
David: Did you know a bunch of hippos is called a, a float?
Seth: D- no. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Let's keep going on this.
David: Let's keep going. Everyone's very interested in this.
Seth: [laughs]
David: This is why you tune into the Smoking Gospel Podcast.
Seth: Oh, of course.
David: To learn about animal groupings. Um-
Seth: And there's some weird ... Oh, um, oh, I s- already said crows is a murder.
David: Yeah, you got the, you got the murder one.
Seth: I got the murder one.
David: Anyway, uh, I have no clue what-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... I was about to say.
Seth: We were talking about the day of the Lord.
David: Yes.
Seth: Period.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We were talking about the day of the Lord and how this could be ... You were talking about Wolfe. Learning about Wolfe.
David: Oh, Wolfe. Yeah, so Wolfe is a commentator, and he doesn't position, um, Joel before the Babylonian army.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He positions it after Ezra-Nehemiah, so after the Babylonian captivity and after the rebuilding of the temple, 'cause the temple's mentioned here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but the way it's mentioned doesn't sound like it was in its original pre-exilic function, but more like the more anemic post-exilic function. And so he's saying that, like, it can't be the Babylonians because they've already come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it is pointing to either another army, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like maybe Rome.
Seth: Right.
David: Or it's pointing to some kind of eschatological, eschatological, which would be like a God actually coming himself-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in, at the end of time to do something.
Seth: And that's what I think is happening.
David: Yeah, I do too.
Seth: Um, but one, one more point to your point-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that it could be another army.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: If you go to the end of Joel, in Joel, chapter three.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, when God... This is, like, the final day, another day of the Lord [laughs] he's describing, but he says that God will... Oh, where'd it go? Three, chapter... Oh, where is it? He mentioned the, he mentions the northerners. Do you know what I'm talking about?
David: Oh, does he?
Seth: Yeah. And he, um... Anyway, we'll find it in a second. But he mentions the fact that God will push the northerners away from Israel. Oh, here it is, uh, chapter two, verse 20. "I will remove the northerner far from you and drive him into a parched and desolate land." So the northerner-
David: Is a reference to Babylon, usually.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's, like, very... Uh, it's a good piece of evidence that this could be Babylon.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Um, another... It could just mean that the locusts came from the north.
David: Right. Or it could also mean that the, the people were a- already exiled in the north-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they were, he's removing them from their midst, or that they were being, Israel was being occupied by Babylonian northerners, and he will remove them-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and their land will be their own, and they won't be under occupied territory anymore.
Seth: The important thing-
David: It doesn't matter
Seth: ... I mean, it matters-
David: It does, but yes
Seth: ... but the, the important thing is the, the transition from a past day of the Lord-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the locust to an escalated day of the Lord coming soon.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the reason why I think it's actually probably not a physical event-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but like an end of times event-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is the language that Joel uses.
David: Mm.
Seth: So he uses a day of darkness and gloom, days of cloud and thick darkness, uh, he uses in chapter 2:2. And then in chapter 2:20... Or, uh, sorry, not 20, but in, um, 10, he talks about the sun and moon being darkened-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the stars withdrawing. All that language is actually language from the other prophets, so Zephaniah 1, Isaiah 13, um, and then even Jesus uses it in Matthew 24.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then Revelation will use it again.
David: Right.
Seth: And in almost all those circumstances, it can, one, refer to an army, a future army coming.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it, Jesus is also f- really free, and Revelation is also really free to use it as a com- about, like, the heavenly army-
David: Yes, right
Seth: ... of the Lord coming as well.
David: Yep.
Seth: So it could be both.
David: Yep.
Seth: But I think it's eschatol-
David: It's-
Seth: ... eschatological.
David: Yeah, it's probably at least eschatological.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And it might be more.
David: And it might be more. Okay.
Seth: But yes.
David: Very cool. Okay. So-
Seth: Those are the two days of the Lord.
David: Those are the two days of the Lord. All right.
Seth: Two days of the Lord's judgment.
David: Okay. Before we-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... move to repentance and the aftermath of repentance, uh, let's stay here for a second-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and talk about, like, past and future judgment.
Seth: Okay.
David: You know? Like, I mean- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's how the book opens, and, like, I don't... Like, like you said, when you, you talked about, like, Jesus being on a propaganda poster with a billion locusts flying around him-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... is not how we think about God typically. Um, so like-
Seth: No. Yeah, we were joking. Like, there's no, like, hymns of doom, like-
David: Right before we came on air-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... we were like, "This is like a, a doom poetry."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Doom poetry.
David: Yeah. And we, and we, and we don't say, uh... What was the song you quoted, you were parodying?
Seth: Oh. [laughs] It was, uh, bl- uh, it was the Doxology. Uh-
David: Oh, praise God from whom all destruction flows
Seth: ... flows. Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, right. It's like, that's not how the song goes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's from all blessings flow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: But, like, Joel praises the Lord often, or at l- at least describes the Lord in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a good light for doing these things.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, that's... Yes.
David: Yeah. So I'm just, like, wanting to, like, stop and meditate on that for a second, that, like, there's this part of God in His justice, in His rule of the world, uh, in His covenant with Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, um, acts destructively.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, that's not something we typically want to think about. Um, I don't really wanna talk about it, but here I am talking about it.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Um...
Seth: I mean, I think there's a, like, a s- a, a light way to think about it.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think it's easy for us to assume that natural disasters are just that.
David: Right.
Seth: Just na-
David: It's just natural
Seth: ... there's no spiritual significance to them.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think Joel would probably invite us to say, "Okay, you can't do that."
David: Mm.
Seth: As a Christian, as a, a believer in a divine power who might have wound up the universe-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you actually have to believe there could be spiritual, uh, causes or spiritual omens-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or a spiritual dimension to natural disasters.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I also think, like Joel does, we also have to be careful not to pin a particular natural disaster on a particular sin.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like-
David: Yeah, Joel doesn't mention a specific thing that's happened. He's just saying, like, "Hey, this happened. Wake up."
Seth: Yeah. Use it-
David: Like, "Worse things could happen"
Seth: ... use it as a way to repent before the Lord-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because something worse is coming.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's not saying, "Well, it's the Chinese's fault for being Chinese that COVID happened."
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Or it's like, we have c- we have some comments in the YouTube somewhere that said, like, "Well, if-If we wouldn't have been eating c- if we would've been eating kosher-
David: Yeah, we wouldn't have had COVID-19.
Seth: We wouldn't have had COVID-19, because apparently somebody had a bat. It's like, ah.
David: Right.
Seth: Joel actually never does that-
David: Right
Seth: ... with this natural disaster that caused devastation.
David: Mm.
Seth: But he does use it as a way for us to realize the spiritual dimension of the world around us, and as a way to cause us to repent for the God who is terrifying.
David: Right. So you're s- so you're saying, like, there's two sides to this. One is if you never want to attach natural disasters to God, you probably need to think about Joel a little bit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and realize that they have a closer relationship than you might feel comfortable with.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if you always want to attach natural disasters to some specific sin that God is punishing in the world, uh, like people try to do with Katrina-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or with 9/11, or-
Seth: Whatever
David: ... AIDS or anything like that, then y- Joel wants to reprimand you too to say like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... maybe don't do that. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, because, like, I mean, i- you can't take the... Even though God is sovereign over weather, weather patterns, you can't take, um, where they happen always carte blanche as a judgment. Like, f- here's a, here's a positive way to think about it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which might be helpful. God says that He makes it rain on the righteous and the wicked.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? But he does... And rain is good in this sense.
Seth: Yes. Like, yeah.
David: It feeds the crops.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's not... That doesn't mean that He is blessing the wicked because of their wicked- wickedness. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... g- saying, "Oh, good job, wicked people. Here's-
Seth: Right
David: ... some rain for your crops." No, He's just saying, like, "I'm in charge of the weather-"
Seth: "And that I'm merciful."
David: Yeah, "And I'm merciful." Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so we can't say that, "Oh, whenever the sun is shining over wicked, like, wicked places, that means-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's okay with it." And whenever a natural disaster comes to a place that seems like it was good, like a tornado takes out a faithful church building-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... there must've been something bad going on in that-
Seth: True
David: ... church basement.
Seth: Yeah.
David: No, you don't have to think that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. That's helpful.
Seth: Yeah. And I think, I think what Joel... And I, I think go back, a liturgical document-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is helping people worship at a time of crisis. Like, what else can you do? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I don't know the mind of the Lord. I don't know the reason why this happened.
David: No.
Seth: I don't know the reason why that happened.
David: Right.
Seth: I can't presume to even try to figure out a reason, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'm, like, I-
David: The only, the only reason you can find is maybe I should think about that our world is more broken than I want to admit-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and that there's something even worse maybe f- for [laughs] coming-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the future.
Seth: Right. And so it's like, okay, so it should cause me to think about what's important. [laughs] Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... am I serving the Lord?
David: Right. It should make you repent.
Seth: It should make you lament and repent. It should make you lament over the damage that's been done.
David: Yes.
Seth: Go and do justice and love mercy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and, like, help those in, who have been devastated by that disaster.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But also repent because you don't know if, why this happens.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You also know that you're more sinful than-
David: Right
Seth: ... you admit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Than you want to admit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: You, you, you were probably more deserving of [laughs] than you want to say
Seth: ... and think about the, the, the, the escalation to the eschaton.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there... One day, God will come and judge evil.
David: Yes.
Seth: And if this is just a picture of what God will do when he comes to judge evil-
David: That's so- that's sobering
Seth: ... it's sobering.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what it's supposed to-
David: It's sobering
Seth: ... it's supposed to cause, "Okay, God, I don't want this to come to me personally."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I don't want this to come to others that I know and love."
David: Mm.
Seth: "So I'm gonna repent and lament and hope that you will come and save me, save my city, save my nation on that last day-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and even right now."
David: Okay. I'm, I'm happy to land the plane there, I think, um, because I think that, okay, we, we've led to repentance and lament-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah
David: ... and that's kind of the bridge into the next section. [gentle music] Okay, so let's talk about repenting and lamenting.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, something we as Westerners love to do.
Seth: Yes, all the time.
David: I mean, how many-
Seth: Everybody
David: ... we've sung lament songs all day.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: The, the hymns of doom-
David: Right
Seth: ... are right, are right there.
David: Is my sarcasm making it through-
Seth: Uh
David: ... this microphone?
Seth: Yeah. So Joel, so ch- chapter one and chapter two are very similar. Plague of locusts, escalated plague of locusts.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Call for repentance in chapter one, escalate a call for repentance in chapter two.
David: Okay.
Seth: In chapter two verse 12, uh, Joel speaks for the Lord. He says, "'Yet even now,' declares the Lord, 'return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning. And rend your hearts and not your garments.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Return to the Lord, because he's gracious and merciful. He's slow to anger. He's abounding in steadfast love, and he relents over disaster."
David: Wow.
Seth: "Who knows whether he will not return and relent, and leave a blessing behind him?" So-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, so Joel says, "Okay, guys, we're in this situation. Devastation is around us. We can predict more devastation is coming for those that disobey the Lord."
David: Right.
Seth: "But repent. Tear your hearts, not your garments," meaning don't do half-hearted religious repentance. Do real heart repentance, real genuine repentance.
David: Yeah, it was like a normal cultural thing for them to, uh, rip their garments-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and cover themselves in ashes as an outward sign of repentance.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But God's saying, like, "I see your hearts. I need, I, I want you to actually feel, like, lament and mourning and, and sorrow over whatever you've done."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. And he says, "When you do that," and Joel says, "Who knows? Maybe the Lord will relent over-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the disaster that has come."
David: Yeah. Well, yeah, and what I love about that too is, is at the beginning of verse 12 is, "Yet even now."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, it's like, I think we feel like in the middle of disaster, it's too late, like we've missed the opportunity to-
Seth: After the locusts have come-
David: ... repent
Seth: ... what can we do?
David: Right. It's like, oh, well, we got God's judgment.We must be abandoned.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It must all be over. There is no hope.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "No, even now-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the middle of disaster, whenever everything is terrible and you feel abandoned by God all you... Like, repent.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Even now, God l- loves, loves to relent from His d- destruction that He has-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... planned. He, he's, He's merciful, He's gracious," and he quotes Exodus.
Seth: He quotes the very first time God describes Himself.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he says, "God is slow to anger and abounds in steadfast love."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He... This is... His character bends towards love.
David: Yes. He-
Seth: Bends towards mercy
David: ... he wants to come and give you mercy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and it was... He was so slow in bringing this l- this locust plague to begin with, he'll be quick to take it away.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which we're- we'll see next, you know-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in, in Joel.
Seth: 'Cause the repentance works in Joel, by the way. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: So it's like we see the character of God play out that way.
Seth: Absolutely.
David: But just... Yeah. Anyway, I love that, that it's like yet even now in the middle of destruction. I just feel like that's really good news-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for me. I feel like it's when everything goes wrong, you know, that's when I feel like there's no point in repenting.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know what I mean? Like, it's like, well, everything al- was already, is already terrible, why repent?
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: It's like I can't... Me repenting doesn't... It's not gonna change my circumstance.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Me admitting that I'm wrong isn't gonna change the weather outside-
David: Right
Seth: ... right? Or even my own state of being inside.
David: Yeah
Seth: Like...
David: And God's like, "No, yet even now, repent because things can get better, or they could get worse." [laughs] You know? And it's like God is longing to shower you with mercy and compassion-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so just repent. And it's like, what does he mean by that? Return to me with all your heart, you know, which again is a call back to Deut- Deuteronomy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Seth: With all your heart. Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And, like, we're, we're talking about these locusts are coming because they broke the law of Deuteronomy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now he's saying, like, "The solution is to just covenant back with me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is love me with your whole heart, with all your mind and your soul and your strength."
Seth: It's so funny. It's like you don't need to mention the specific ways-
David: Right
Seth: ... that Israel's broken the commands to justify the plague of locusts. Has Israel loved God with their whole heart?
David: Right. No.
Seth: Can any of us ever say that? [laughs]
David: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Seth: You know, it's like, oh, yeah, I, I get that. I get that. I understand that. Um, so that's not the only Egypt, uh, Egypt-Israel connection-
David: Okay
Seth: ... Mount Sinai connection. So Joel quotes the first time Do- God describes himself here.
David: Right.
Seth: And then if you go to chapter 17 or verse 17. Chapter 17. There's only three chapters. [laughs]
David: I was like, whoa.
Seth: Um, but, like, so Joel says, "Okay, this is the who God is. He bends towards mercy and justice. He's slow to anger."
David: Oh.
Seth: And he says, "Okay, all of us, come to the temple. Come and fast and pray." And then he says this: "Between the vestibule and the altar let the priests and the ministers of the Lord weep and s- say, 'Spare your people.'" This is the lament. "Spare your people, O Lord, and make not your heritage a reproach, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"
David: So this is what Moses says to God after the golden calf.
Seth: In Exodus 32.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's the same, it's the same phrasing. Wh- why should they say among the peoples that God has brought us into the wilderness to kill us out here?
David: Mm.
Seth: So he, he, he's pulling on this, on the plagues in Egypt-
David: Mm
Seth: ... pulling on their faithlessness back then and he's saying, "We repent of this."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think it's interesting, too, that the repentance is for God's namesake.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, don't let your name be sullied by the way that you treat your people.
David: Right. Because if, if you completely wipe out Israel, who will be left to represent you on the earth-
Seth: Right
David: ... is the argument-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that Moses and now Joel uses.
Seth: And it's the argument we make against God all the time.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's like in a natural disaster, why would God ever do this to us? Like, why, why is it... Like, He can't be good if this is happening-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to us, right? And then so Moses says, "That's exactly right, God. Don't let this happen to us. Restore us. Prove to the nations out there, prove to everyone asking-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you can't be good because of this, and show them that you are good by showing mercy to us."
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah, I think so. And I think also he, he pulls on the Exodus story here because, like, in the middle of a natural disaster like this where it seems like God's abandoned His people, I think you'd ask the question like, "Okay, fine. You want me to lament. You want me to repent. But will it even work?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, will God actually show us mercy? I know that old book, you know, Exodus says that He's merciful-
Seth: Right
David: ... but will He actually be? And he's like, remember the story of the golden calf when in front of God Himself people built an idol and worshiped it and said-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Here's the god who brought you up out of the land of Egypt" and spit in God's face basically, and then they repented. Did God forgive them then? Yes. He will forgive you now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, it's like pulling on God's past-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... faithfulness to prove that He will be faithful in the future.
Seth: It's r- that's really good. It gives that so, like, who knows whether He'll relent.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you assume the answer is yes, but at the same time, I don't think for Joel he really knew.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He didn't know if that would actually happen.
David: No. I mean-
Seth: Who knows if God will relent?
David: Right.
Seth: We could repent, but maybe this is the end of God's promises to us.
David: Yes, which I mean is... And I think that's, that's a big question that so many people ask. I feel like almost once a week even we get emails here at Spoken Gospel from listeners and viewers who say like, "Man, thank you guys for your content," everything like that. "I got one question for you. How do I know that I'm safe?"
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's very regular.
Seth: How do I know the day of judgment's not coming for me?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not for me.
David: I feel like, I feel like the people in Joel, and I still ask the question, who knows if God will relent?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I believe the day of judgment's coming.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I've lamented and repented, but who knows? Hopefully, it'll work.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And, like, the good news of Jesus is that we know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God relents. How do we know that? Well, because the final day of judgment has come in the person of Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Who knows if God will relent? Jesus died on the cross to take our judgment, and He rose from the dead to prove that God's judgment had relented. And so when we put our faith in Jesus, we know-
Seth: Yeah
David: That there will not be a final day of judgment reserved for us because it has already been extinguished on Jesus himself.
Seth: Yeah, for after the cross, lamenting and repenting is all that's necessary.
David: That's right.
Seth: We don't have to prove it by casting out demons or healing people, or even doing a certain number of good works. Like trusting-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Jesus, lamenting, repenting, calling out to him is how we know.
David: Yes.
Seth: If we've done that-
David: Then we know
Seth: ... then we know.
David: Yeah, which is like, uh, what John in the New Testament wrote, he's like, i- in his writings, he says, "I'm writing all this stuff in this book here so that you may know" [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, that you are His.
Seth: And it's only when we start doing the outward things as a way to secure-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God's care of us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we're in danger of what's happening here in Joel. He says, "Rend your hearts-
David: Right
Seth: ... not your garments."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as soon as we start trying to rend and tear and place our hands on the number of good works, miracles, whatever, Bible reading things we're doing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... instead of trusting Jesus, we come closer and closer to the judgment Joel's describing.
David: Yes.
Seth: We should read our Bibles, we should pray for the sick-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but not as a way to prove that we're worthy of God's mercy-
David: No
Seth: ... but as an outflow of the fact that we have received God's mercy. [laughs]
David: Right. Exactly.
Seth: Uh-
David: Yeah. No, that's really interesting.
Seth: So that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I think that's good news for us. We know.
David: Yeah. We know.
Seth: We know God will be merciful to us.
David: Even in the, even in the middle of the plague, even whenever the natural disaster hits your house-
Seth: Mm
David: ... right? Even whenever-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the disease comes, right? Even when you lose everything, even when you feel abandoned by God, when you repent, lament, and trust in Jesus, we know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that God has lamented or l- relented-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that whenever He comes again in that final escalated day of the Lord, it will not be a day of judgment for us, but a day of mercy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And think about the way that Jesus announces his arrival-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to Israel in Luke 4, "I've come to set the captives free, to preach good news to the poor, to people who live as if their lives have been wrecked by a natural disaster." Like, and he comes in that moment to provide not just eschatological safety-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the new heavens, and the new earth, and the new Garden of Eden, but he actually fed people.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: He actually, like, provided for poor people. He actually did things that undid the desolation of, um, Rome and-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the systems and whatever else, which is also what happens in Joel.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it looks like you wanna say something else before we jump to the next part of the Book of Joel.
David: Um, I w- I was just looking at Luke 4, uh, because he talks about the year of the Lord's favor.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know?
Seth: Right.
David: And I was like, is it the day of the Lord that he quotes there in the-
Seth: It's the year of the Lord
David: ... in, in, the, and then he says, "Today, this scripture's been, you know, fulfilled in your h- in your hearing." So I was just, I was curious about it. You mentioned Luke 4, that sent me spiraling, but, uh-
Seth: That's, that's a-
David: Yeah. Maybe here... Uh, you have anything else on that?
Seth: I was just gonna say, well, that's what happens in the second half of the book-
David: Right
Seth: ... of Joel. You have an, a coming day of the Lord's mercy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then a far-reaching day of the Lord's mercy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So just like you had a past day of the Lord's judgment and a coming day of the Lord's judgment, in the last half of the Book of Joel, you have a near day of the Lord's mercy and a far day of the Lord's mercy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the same way that we have a near day of the Lord's mercy, where Jesus fed the poor, healed the sick-
David: Mm
Seth: ... came near the widows, and there's a final day of the Lord's mercy where the Garden of Eden finally comes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We see both-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in Jesus.
David: And there's a lot to unpack in that second half of the book that we might wanna put-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the next episode. Yeah?
Seth: Yes.
David: I think so. I think we've, I think we've, w- we've, we've, uh, stretched our audience's listening time-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... as far as it should go for this episode.
Seth: Well, thanks for listening, guys.
David: Yeah. Um, look forward to the day of the Lord.
Seth: Look forward to the day of the Lord. Repent and lament, and know-
David: And know [laughs] that-
Seth: [laughs] We didn't finish the sentence
David: ... period. [laughs]
Seth: And know.
David: And know.
Seth: Know. [laughs]
David: Period. I love that. Okay. Well, guys, yeah, thank you so much for listening, and, uh, we will see you next week to wrap up the Book of Joel. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
