Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you this morning?
Seth: I'm, I'm well. I'm ready to get angry at some false teachers.
David: Oh, you are. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I mean, you are right in line with Jude here.
Seth: Yeah. Uh, Jude is, kind of follows in the heels of 2 Peter in a lot of ways, the end of second... Or the whole book of 2 Peter, which is an argument against false teachings that have invaded the church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Jude follows the, that pattern almost exactly and basically says, "Judgment is coming for those that reject Jesus as their Lord and Master."
David: Mm. Okay.
Seth: And so-
David: Judgment for false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Buckle up, audience.
Seth: Bu- buckle up, audience.
David: Let's, let's get into it. Yeah, so, uh, the, okay, so the Book of Jude, a few questions right off the bat.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: One, is that the name we should use?
Seth: Well, so as always, there's a debate about everything in the Bible. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, Jude is actually the name Judah.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, he-
David: Like the tribe
Seth: ... the tribe, Judah, um-
David: And like where the name Judeans come from.
Seth: Yeah, it's-
David: And then what ultimately became Jews.
Seth: It is... I mean, on this one, Jude and Judah feel very similar. And I think even in English, I know people that are named Judah-
David: Mm-hmm, go by Jude
Seth: ... but go by Jude.
David: Interesting.
Seth: So I think in English, maybe the, all the connotations between the two are kind of erased or very similar.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I know there's probably a history of anti-Semitism in re-labeling it Jude rather than Judah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Kind of similar with James, Book of James as well.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: However...
David: However...
Seth: Judah is his name.
David: Ju- Judah is his name.
Seth: And he was-
David: We can call him Jude
Seth: ... a servant of Jesus Christ.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But also the half brother of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: Not brother of Jesus.
David: The, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Who was also born of Mary
Seth: ... also born of Mary.
David: Yes.
Seth: I always think it's weird to call any but one of Jesus' brothers half brothers, because, like, well, that's right, he did have a divine father, but, I mean, it's different. [laughs]
David: It is weird.
Seth: Genetically, it's different. [laughs]
David: [laughs] But yeah.
Seth: That was-
David: So like, like the Book of James-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... was also a brother of Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, a son of Mary-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in that sense. Um, okay, that's cool. And then my second question came from your little introduction-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... which is, you've referenced 2 Peter.
Seth: Yes.
David: And how Jude kind of follows in the same trough or laid, you know, f- by 2 Peter.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is that how it happened? Did s- did, did... Who, who, who wrote first, Jude or 2 Peter?
Seth: Yeah. That's, it's another great argument-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... Bible nerds get to have.
David: I love it.
Seth: But, like, basically, nobody can really agree.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jude and 2 Peter are very, very similar books to one another, but seem to be written to different audiences, and are written almost in the same order.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Jude is the shorter letter, so a lot of people think that was the first one, and then Peter got ahold of it and expanded on it.
David: Right.
Seth: It honestly doesn't matter a whole bunch-
David: Right
Seth: ... except to know that-
David: Not for our purposes
Seth: ... not for our purposes. Like, we want to see Jesus in the Book of Jude.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh-
David: To be fair, if you're, if you've dedicated your life to dating New Testament letters, it matters.
Seth: It matters.
David: We don't wanna undermine you.
Seth: Right. Yeah, you're, you are a special breed of human.
David: That's right.
Seth: And we're really glad you exist. [laughs]
David: For our purposes.
Seth: Um, can I ask you a question?
David: Uh, man, as long as it's an easy one.
Seth: Um, Jude does not call himself a brother of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: He calls himself a servant of Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and a brother of James.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why do you think he doesn't pull on his actual related, right, relationship to Jesus?
David: Yeah. I mean, w- one thought that comes right to mind is almost what you said, too, is it's just like, "Am I his bro- like his biological brother?"
Seth: Well, yeah. [laughs]
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's weird. Is it weird? I don't know. I'm James' brother, and you guys know James.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So you guys can put it together, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, you know, the other might just be humility.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, you kind of notice in 2 Corinthians, Paul, um, almost being, not shy, but not eager-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to pull his apostolic rank out as his trump card for why you should listen to him. Um, there's a humility there. I mean, Jesus didn't come to earth and just say, "I'm the Son of God. Worship me."
Seth: Yeah, he said-
David: He, he served people and-
Seth: Yeah, that's what a great leader was, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: To s- serve many servants.
David: And so he, he didn't just be like, "This is who I am, so listen to me, false teachers," you know? Um, so it may be humility, following the example of Jesus, maybe confusion around how to even, what to even call himself. [laughs]
Seth: And I believe Judah, the, Jesus' brothers didn't believe him-
David: Not at the beginning. Yeah, there's lots of stories like that
Seth: ... while he was alive, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I wonder even if it's, like, his own veiled admission-
David: Of that, yeah
Seth: ... that he didn't follow Jesus while he was alive and could have, but has only after the fact done so.
David: Right. It's like, how can I call myself Jesus' earthly brother-
Seth: Right
David: ... if I didn't follow him when he was on earth?
Seth: Which-
David: I c- I don't mind calling me his, his servant, since I followed him now that he's-
Seth: Mm
David: ... King of Kings, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... enthroned on high.
Seth: And what's interesting is l- in a second, he's gonna summarize the teaching of the false teachers as people who deny our only master and Lord Jesus Christ.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is what exactly he did, right?
David: Right.
Seth: He was, his brother was alive.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I would just mindf- now I'm just thinking about-
David: That's interesting
Seth: ... oh, man, like, James used to be one of the false teachers he's describing.
David: Wow. Yeah. Okay. Do we, do we have any idea of who he was writing to?
Seth: Um, most people seem to believe it was a Jewish audience-
David: Okay
Seth: ... based on the sheer number of Old Testament text allusions and Jewish popular literature-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that he references.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, so yeah.
David: Okay. And then, like-I mean, it seems from, from, from my reading of it that the, um... Like, the situation surrounding this letter was-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so specific that it was probably may- may- if it wasn't one church, it was probably a group of local churches.
Seth: Right.
David: It was probably like a-
Seth: Which-
David: He was probably writing to an area, right?
Seth: Probably, which could also, uh, explain why 2 Peter and Jude write very similar letters. They're both addressing the same problem within a s- an area of the church.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And they're like, "We need to... Let's tag-team this effort to address this."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And-
David: I'll write to this group. You write to that group.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So maybe they shared notes.
David: Yeah, maybe, or maybe Second Peter got a- P- Peter got a hold of Jude and they're like, "This is good." I-
Seth: These other churches need to hear it [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, man. I mean-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we've both given our share of sermons and, uh, the best stuff is, is stolen.
Seth: Y- yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: For, yeah, for [laughs] oh, I thought you went like, "The best stuff we say is stolen by others." You-
David: No. No, no.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I mean, we steal from better preachers-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... to put. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: Uh.
David: That, that's what one of the very first preachers I ever studied under, he, he said, uh, "David, the best thing you need to learn is CASE." And I was like, "CASE?" He's like, "Yeah, it's an acronym. Copy And Steal Everything." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I was like, "That seems weird for a preacher to say, but I ge- I, I get the heart behind it."
Seth: I get the... Yeah.
David: Anyway, okay. So we've talked about these false teachers a lot.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, Jude is writing to a local community of Jewish Christians probably.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they are having a crisis of faith because of these false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What are they teaching?
Seth: Well, apparently in verse 3, Jude wanted to write a different letter than this one. So he writes this-
David: I would have loved to have read this original letter.
Seth: Yeah. He w- he wanted to write about God's salvation of, of humanity.
David: Our shared salvation.
Seth: Our [laughs] shared salvation. Uh, but the theological and moral crisis told him, made him have to write this letter.
David: Come on, guys.
Seth: So I think it's helpful to even, like, James, or, uh, Jude wrote this letter a little reluctantly.
David: Mm.
Seth: As in, like, "I really wish I could talk to you about our common salvation, but there is something more im- there's something on the line right now I need to address perfe- uh, more intensely." And he says, "I want to contend for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints." He wants to write appealing you to contend for the faith that once and for all delivered to the saints.
David: Mm.
Seth: So he wants them to fight for something that's under threat. What was delivered to them was the teaching of the apostles, the good news of Jesus Christ.
David: Okay, so yeah, the faith that was delivered-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is probably that delivery is the teaching-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the apostles-
Seth: That's right
David: ... given to the Christians there called the saints.
Seth: Yep.
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: And-
David: I'm following that
Seth: ... then they wanna contend for the faith delivered to them because certain people, certain leaders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... have crept in unnoticed.
David: Crept in unnoticed.
Seth: Uh, who long ago were desti- designated or destined for condemnation. They're ungodly people who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only master and Lord Jesus Christ.
David: Okay, so you have these false teachers. They've crept in, and people haven't noticed, which is really interesting. Later, he's gonna describe them as-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like a hidden reef in the ocean floor.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That you're, you're, you're riding in your ship, and you're goi- as we all do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, taking our ship out-
Seth: Right
David: ... on the ocean. Um, anyway [laughs] and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and-
Seth: As we all do, we all go boating.
David: We all, we all, we all go boating, as we do, and you h- you, you, your, your boat hits a reef.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you, you couldn't see it 'cause it was so underground. It was unnoticed, and it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... causes, it causes you to sink and die, and so he's like, "These false teachers are like that. They are these unnoticed, um, death sentences that have crept in."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, I, I think that alone is very interesting.
Seth: Yeah. I think part of the reason is perhaps because they're the actual leaders of the churches.
David: Oh.
Seth: Um, false teachers often in, like, the Book of John-
David: Mm
Seth: ... are the leaders of the churches.
David: Yeah.
Seth: False prophets are often the leaders within specific congregations, and so when you have s- a charismatic leader preaching what he says the, the grace of God into sensuality, what, what he means is like, "Uh, h- we're f- free to pursue your passions. Follow your heart. God forgives you."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's a really attractive-
David: Yeah, you could build a, you could build a megachurch around that
Seth: ... and you could also, as a even an Orthodox Christian-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... dismiss a whole bunch of moral oddities that you see in your leaders because they seem to be teaching the grace and goodness of Jesus, right?
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Which is a very common thing to happen even today. Well, they're orthodox on this, this, and this thing. They're f-
David: Right.
Seth: But, and yeah, they're harsh, and they're brash, and they're kinda weird over here, but ignore all that because he's teaching good theology.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I think it's significant that he, he says they pervert the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, into a cause for s- and into sensual, uh, sensuality.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that's how they deny the Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, but that's underneath the surface. That's the hidden reality.
David: Mm.
Seth: On top, they seem fine.
David: Interesting. So okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So when you're saying they pervert the grace of God into sensuality, um, I mean, what, what does that mean?
Seth: I think it means they're claiming that God's grace is canceling his moral commands. It's God's job to forgive, so Jesus no longer has to be the moral master or Lord of their lives.
David: I gotcha. So since God is gracious-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I can go be sensual with my body, do whatever I want with it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... have impunity to, you know-
Seth: Yep
David: ... I can act-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this way.
Seth: Because God'll forgive me. He has, he's gracious.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's so gracious that maybe there's not even anything to forgive.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I love the idea of exploring hiddenness of these guys, and it is a theme here. But I think what J- uh, Jude is doing is revealing how overt it is.
Seth: Mm.
David: So it's like, man, I'm really interested in, like, how, how can we spot hidden false teachers today?
Seth: Right.
David: But James is real... Or James [laughs].
Seth: Jude, yeah.
David: Jude is really, uh, explicit upfront. No, these people are saying, whether you s- understand it or not or see it clearly or not, that Jesus is no longer the moral master or Lord of their lives.
Seth: Mm.
David: You are free to pursue your passions, particularly sexual ones, because you are the masters of your body, and God's grace-
Seth: ... covers a multitude of sins.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's his job to forgive.
David: Yes. So yeah, yeah
Seth: That's the false teaching.
David: 'Cause like to... It, it is interesting to see him use the word master here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause we're very used to, in the New Testament, seeing our Lord, our Kurios is the Greek word, uh, Jesus Christ, but now he's throwing in this extra word, master-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which I, I mean, I can't think of another time in the New Testament this happens.
Seth: Uh, it happens in 2 Peter.
David: Okay.
Seth: And-
David: Well, there you go. [laughs]
Seth: ... it, it, well, it happens when Paul is talking to slaves and masters, and he's-
David: Oh
Seth: ... telling masters, "You too have a master-
David: Right
Seth: ... and his name is Jesus."
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, so you're slaves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, he says that to other people.
David: So it makes sense then that he at, opens his letter really intentionally calling himself a slave of Jesus.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Right? He says-
Seth: That's right
David: ... "Jude, a slave of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... talking to you people who have denied your master."
Seth: Right. And the emphasis here is on obedience to specific moral commands.
David: That's right. There's a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there's, there's a master, an authority over you, and there are people in your midst who have denied their master and are no longer slaves to Christ.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and, and so to, to, to eschew a master is to-
Seth: To say, "I'm not ruled over."
David: Yeah, is to come out from their authority, and particularly you're saying that Jude's point is they're coming out from the moral authority of Jesus. Jesus says, "Live this way," and they say, "No."
Seth: Yeah. Another-
David: That's, that's the deal
Seth: ... another way to say it is that the false teachers' attack on the moral implications of the gospel is actually an attack on the gospel itself.
David: What do you mean?
Seth: Meaning, like, if you cut underneath Jesus's, uh, identity as your master-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who can tell you what to do, and that you're supposed to live a certain way, and if you deny that, you're actually undermining the gospel itself because your-
David: Oh
Seth: ... your salvation does not happen unless he is master and Lord of the universe.
David: Right. You could almost follow his logic here in 3 to 4, where he's like, "I wanted to write about our salvation that we share, but I don't think I can anymore because it's being undercut. You guys need to contend for the faith that was delivered to you, which is being eroded by the fact that the people among you are denying that Jesus is the moral master of their lives."
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I track that.
Seth: Yep.
David: I track that.
Seth: So that's-
David: Uh, I mean, hold-
Seth: Yeah, sorry. Go on. Keep going
David: ... I just wanna, like, lean in there a second 'cause, uh, I don't spend a ton of time, um, funnily enough, I have recently, but I just... thinking about my life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I haven't spent a ton of time meditating on Jesus as my moral master.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think maybe as a kid, I had this category of God as this moral being who really wanted me to live a certain way and do certain things, and I think as my theology got thicker-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I, I, I just don't think about-
Seth: The moral-
David: ... Jesus as the, my moral master. Do this. Do not do that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and, and I, I mean, I'm, I'm just... W- I think we're all meditating in the office lately, and we're about to read a book on it, about Jesus's, uh, sa- saying in Matthew where h- he's like, "Come to me, all you weary and heavy-laden," right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Take my yoke upon you."
Seth: Yeah, take-
David: Uh, "Learn from me"-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is like, this was language that rabbis would use about how they teach and how they lead, and he's saying, like, "You are either some unyoked wild animal," which he's gonna call them in a second-
Seth: You're a-
David: ... these false teachers, "or you have a other yoke on you right now, an evil yoke, another teacher, you know, a heavy yoke."
Seth: And that's teaching you to live a different way.
David: It's teaching you to live a different way. "Come under my teaching. Put on my yoke." I mean, a yoke went on an oxen to make them plow a field. It was work, and the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... master would make them go left or right-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to obey their authority, and I'm just, like, trying to meditate on Jesus being-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my moral master, saying, "Obey me," you know? Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "If you love me, keep my commands." You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "Obey me. Go this way." And I just... I, I wanted to just take a second and be like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if that's what they're... if that's what's on the line-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is not having Jesus as our moral master, I should probably take a second [laughs] and try to meditate on, man, Jesus is my moral master who has put his light and easy yoke on me and is directing my life by his commandments, telling me what to do and what not to do.
Seth: If... Another way to say it is if Jesus is not the ultimate authority of morality, he cannot forgive sins.
David: Oh, uh, why?
Seth: Because he is the one who determines what is right and wrong.
David: Mm.
Seth: And if you deny him that power, he cannot actually do justice on the behalf of the unju- or, like, he cannot do justice against the unjust. He cannot bring forgiveness to those who are guilty.
David: Oh, I, I think I get it.
Seth: You, you see-
David: If a, if a judge had no concept of the law-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he would have no basis on which to pass judgment.
Seth: Yep.
David: And if Jesus is not the moral authority, on what grounds does he have to either judge or pardon the sinner?
Seth: Right.
David: Okay?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So yeah, the gospel is on the line.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay. I, I follow that. Okay.
Seth: Yeah. Another way... Another even simpler way to say it is, like, man, the gospel saves sinners.
David: Right.
Seth: It doesn't promote sin.
David: Yes.
Seth: So it's like really simply, that's-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that's what's on the line.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus dies as the moral master to save sinners, and-
David: Ah, I, I see what you're saying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the... uh, to say it another way, what's on the line then is we are meant to be saved from sin. Like, the, the point of the gospel is not just to get us out of hell-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to escape judgment. It's to save us from sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Sin is our slave master.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we-
Seth: Yes. Yes, yes, yes
David: ... right, and we are being ruled by it, and we're meant to be set free from it, so we've been saved from sin, not saved to sin, right? I mean, uh, Romans 6:1, like, "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"
Seth: Mega noita. [laughs]
David: Mega noita. [laughs] It's Greek for by no means.
Seth: By no means.
David: It was our, it was our, our Greek professor's favorite phrase, I think.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, but yes, anyway.
Seth: Mm.
David: Okay. I follow. There's a lot on the line, right?
Seth: There's a lot on the line.
David: That, that really, really helps. Okay.
Seth: Um, yeah. So and then Jude is gonna go on and explain a whole bunch of examples from the Old Testament.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So here's what he says in verse four again.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Certain people have crept in unnoticed-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who long ago-"We're destined, designated or destined for this condemnation
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And so what I think he's setting us up for here is that there is a historic or even, like, Biblical theological category for false teachers.
David: Mm.
Seth: And these new false teachers in Peter's day, or sorry, Jude's day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are the same ones that we've seen over and over and over and over again throughout Biblical history.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's gonna give us a whole bunch of examples of how the false teaching that Jesus or God is not our moral master has been rampant since the beginning.
David: Okay. That's cool. What, what, what do you think his motivation is here? Ca- you know, for, to go back, and he's about to pull on all of these different stories of disbelief, especially, like, disbe- a disbelief and a, a lack of authority, like an eschewing of authority so that one might be sexually promiscuous. You know? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, is it... I mean, what's... I mean, like, if you're thinking pastorally or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's his goal in bringing up all these stories, do you think? 'Cause we're about to dive into them-
Seth: Right
David: ... so I wanna set the stage.
Seth: Well, I think, one, it's... Okay, so you have leaders within the church who can pretend to be Orthodox well enough to hide their immoral behavior-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and justify their immoral behavior.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? So he's bringing up all these stories that presumably these leaders would have preached through, talked about, known about.
David: Oh, [laughs] yeah.
Seth: And so he's saying, "Okay, leaders, don't you know your Bibles?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's just exposing their ignorance of what the Bible says throughout history about people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like them. And so he, I think it's, it's a polemic against them, like you claim to be teachers of God's word.
David: Mm.
Seth: You claim to be basing your current lifestyle on your interpretation of the grace of God, but that's actually, runs contrary to everything we see in scripture from page one.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's just laying out for them their ignorance of the Bible.
David: Okay. Yeah, that's helpful. I think, uh, I think it's helpful to say, like, they were teachers of the Bible, and so he's like, "Okay, I'll play by your rules."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: If, you know, if you, if you are the ones who've been getting up, opening the Torah, and speaking out of Genesis and Numbers and Exodus, I'll use your playbook. Here are some stories from Genesis. Here are some stories from Numbers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, here are some stories from Exodus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They condemn you.
Seth: Yeah, and especially if this was a Jewish audience-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and these were s- perhaps reformed, like converted rabbis, perhaps, who were teaching in synagogues.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Like, these would have been the texts they're all familiar with.
David: Right.
Seth: This is everybody's baseline imagination-
David: Right
Seth: ... for the world.
David: Okay.
Seth: You know?
David: And then you also brought up something else, um, that I didn't wanna just skip over, was, like, they are in this spiritual lineage of, uh-
Seth: False teaching
David: ... false teaching.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Yeah. Uh, I mean, that's kinda weird.
Seth: Well, it's what happened in the Garden.
David: Okay.
Seth: The serpent tempted Eve to have a different moral master and lord other than God.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's, it's the or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's the original temptation-
David: Right
Seth: ... that has been condemned from long ago.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so... And that original serpentine satanic lie has found new iterations in new human figures throughout history.
David: Mm.
Seth: Cain is one of them. Uh, it-
David: Yeah. We're gonna go through them all
Seth: We're gonna go through them all. We're gonna go through them all.
David: Okay. So, I mean, what, what I'm hearing there, that's helpful for me, 'cause I was like, is he... is the point that he's making simply that, um, "Look, you guys are repeating history, you know? This has always happened, and you're the next... You're, you're version 9.0 of the same heresy."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm like, okay, that's an interesting point.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not a bad point. Interesting point. Really cool Biblical theological theme, too, but I mean, I think that point-
Seth: Mm
David: ... also stands.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But what you're saying, too, is that there is a, a, like almost like a capital S Spiritual line going through that is demonically charged-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, with the first instigator of this lie being Satan himself, and it's, it's his lie-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that has crept in unnoticed to the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and it's, it's, he's the one who's been behind all these sins we're about to go through.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, not that... I'm not trying to be like, "The devil made me do it."
Seth: No, no.
David: I'm just saying there was this-
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then at the very end of Jude, Jude 17 and on, he, he's in a quote from the Apostle John, the Apostle Peter. Um, he's in a quote Jesus himself-
David: Yes
Seth: ... all of whom predicted the coming of people who would oppose him, and John even calls them antichrists.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, we've, like... You know, we've, if you-
David: We've talked about that
Seth: ... we've talked about that in our first John podcast, and you can go back there and-
David: Yeah. I mean, that's helpful. It's, it's interesting, too, to be like... I, I kind of... When, when, when Paul and Peter and Jesus predicted those things or prophesied those things, I, I think... And it probably did happen, where they-
Seth: Mm
David: ... were just like, um, the Holy Spirit revealed to them what was going to happen. But it's also like they, they could have predicted those things just from knowing their Bible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it's like this lie continually resurfaces. People, uh, push off the authority of God, become their own moral masters-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then they die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, that's just the story of the Bible, and that's s- the Sa- Sa- Satan's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... lie from the beginning.
Seth: Yeah. And what... And if you are sup- a supposed pastor-
David: Mm
Seth: ... an expert in these things, you're being proven to be the ignorant person you are, which Jude goes and s- calls these people ignorant multiple times.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the more familiar you are with the Bible stories, the more of an indictment this becomes. I keep thinking about, um, the rise and fall of Mars Hill-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Mark Driscoll, who made a name for himself by being Biblically theologically adept and bringing that type of theology to a new generation of Christians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But his moral behavior behind the scenes was left unchecked-
David: Right
Seth: ... because he could justify it because he was preaching the right thing, but what, what is he doing? I think Judas would say that he perverted the grace of our God into sensuality-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and in effect denied the master he claimed to be serving.
David: Mm.
Seth: Now, I hope for repentance.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jude offers hope of repentance for-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... people like that because ultimately we're all like that-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in some way. Um, and we'll talk about that in a second, too, but uh, it, it's, it's... I think it's more common, and that goes back to the hiddenness of it. It's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... you can be functionally Orthodox-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but if your behavior is, um, s-
David: Outside of God's moral authority
Seth: Whether that's... And, and sensuality, all that means-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is saying, "I can act this way even though God told me otherwise."
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: You are the false teacher in this-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and you need to hear what Jude has to say.
David: Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna go through some of the stories that Jude uses from the Old Testament to condemn these ignorant false teachers. [gentle music]
Seth: Okay, so all the different Old Testament texts Jude uses to prove the fact that God is the moral master, that's where we're, that's where we're at.
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: Um, so the first one he uses is from the Book of Exodus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Hebrew people's founding document. Israel becomes a nation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in this moment, "And now I wanna remind you, although you once fully knew it, in that Jesus," or the Lord, "saved a people out of the land of Egypt, but afterwards destroyed those who did not believe."
David: It's interesting. He, like, gives them, he, he gives them grace, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "You guys preach radical grace." He's like, "You guys know the story."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "The Lord saved you from Egypt." Grace. You, you're right. You're right. The false teachers are, are kind of right. There's grace in the Lord.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But afterward-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... anyone who didn't believe was destroyed.
Seth: Yep, and that looked like them no- not being able to enter the Promised Land for 40 years.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That looked like the ground opening up on occasion. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It looked like very physical, real ways of God judging people who would not admit God's moral authority.
David: Yeah, and it's kind of an ambiguous reference-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that he's making here, 'cause there's lots of times after the exodus that the people don't believe. Is it right after they left and they were grumbling of why they, why they were left out in there, and the licentiousness, the, the, uh, what's the word? The sensuality-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's meaning us to think about is the, the desire of their guts, of their stomachs for food?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it, was it at the golden calf when they didn't believe in God alone?
Seth: And they partied.
David: And they partied, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they stepped out from His moral authority while He's giving the law on the mountain to go, uh, yeah, carouse.
Seth: Who-
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they probably threw some kinda sex party in front of the golden calf.
Seth: I mean, why wouldn't you? [laughs]
David: Why wouldn't you? It's a golden calf.
Seth: It's a golden calf. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Um, and then, or was it like God said, "Go into the land." Like, "I'll be with you," and they stepped out from His moral authority to say, "No, we're not gonna go in-
Seth: The answer is-
David: "... because we're sensuous for our own safety"?
Seth: The answer is yes.
David: The answer is yes.
Seth: The answer is yes.
David: But I just love the, the link between, like, the s- the, the disbelief-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Israel with the, this claim of sensuality.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, that like, I, I don't often think about my, my disbelief-
Seth: Oh, yes
David: ... that way.
Seth: Yes.
David: That it's like, um, whenever I want something that God says not to do-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I'm disbelieving.
Seth: Yes.
David: Whenever I'm saying, "But God, I really w- I'm sensuous, desirous, wanting-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of this thing that's just outside of your commands." [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? I wanna step outside your moral authority just for a second-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and go get it. I'm not believing in Jesus anymore. [laughs] Like...
Seth: Yeah. Right, and that's both a moral thing and even a political thing.
David: Ooh.
Seth: Like, that spans all human sin-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is sensuality in, in that sense, right?
David: Right. Yeah, yeah.
Seth: It's, like, it's all a rejection of God's moral authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and claiming for myself-
David: Right
Seth: ... that I can define good and evil on my own.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. So that, that's, that's awesome. Okay, that's, so the second story then, uh, is in verse six.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, yeah.
Seth: And now it gets weird.
David: What? [laughs]
Seth: Jude gets weird. It has a whole bunch of stories that aren't even included in, um, uh... It has two stories-
David: In, yeah, in our Old Testament
Seth: ... in our Old Testament.
David: Right.
Seth: But this one is. Uh-
David: Kind of
Seth: ... oh.
David: The interpretation comes from an extra-biblical source.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So verse six says, "And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day."
David: Yeah. So he's, he's referencing the story in Genesis 6 of the Nephilim, the s- the, or the, or, or of the sons of God.
Seth: Where the sons of God have s- have sex with the daughters of men-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and create the Nephilim.
David: Right. And so he's saying that those are, th- those sons of God who slept with, were sensuous toward, uh, human women, they didn't stay in their po- own positions of authority. They were given authority and said to stay there-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they eschewed, stepped outside of, God's moral authority and did whatever they wanted. And now, um, now... So that's, that's in the Bible.
Seth: That's in the Bible.
David: But then the interpretation of what happened next is from an, a, a, a b- popular Jewish book.
Seth: Book of First Enoch.
David: Yeah, the Book of First Enoch, that explains and interprets and, and kind of adds color to what might have happened-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to those angels.
Seth: Yes.
David: It says that God kept them in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, holding them for judgment on the great day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So what he's saying, I mean, his point here is, is actually very simple.
Seth: It's very simple.
David: He's saying step outside of God's authority, be sensuous, and you'll be judged forever.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Even the angels are-
David: Even the angels who had this high authority were not a-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... outside of this, this, uh, I don't know, system.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in Gen- And so in Jude 6 and in Genesis 6, you have angelic beings-
David: Yep
Seth: ... having sex with men, and now the next ex- next example reverses that, where you have men wanting to have sex with angelic beings.
David: Right.
Seth: Verse seven, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by going, uh, undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
David: Right, so-
Seth: So what's the point again?
David: Yeah.
Seth: You have a group of men wanting to transgress divine boundaries-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to call their own moral authority absolute and try to rape angels.
David: Right. So intense.
Seth: And, uh, right.
David: And the story ends in Sodom and Gomorrah with napalm and fire from heaven-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to make his point again. There is not unending grace for those who deny Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and step outside of His moral authority.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's judgment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's punishment. There's also a really interesting thing here. This, this translation, we're using the ESV here, is not helpful, uh-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in pursued unnatural desires.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, talking about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, the literal translation, uh, is just different flesh."heteros sarkos."
Seth: Huh.
David: It's just different flesh. What do you mean? What diff- what, what different flesh? The flesh of angels.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: The flesh of angels. What's crazy about that is that word pops up in the next sentence.
Seth: Oh.
David: And so you miss this connection. So they purf- pur- pursued-
Seth: Oh
David: ... different flesh.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now you false teachers are defiling your flesh by rejecting Jesus' authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And he's saying, "You are Sodom and Gomorrah." [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: You are, in a sense, sleeping with angels-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in, like, d- and, and that is the depth of your-
Seth: Right
David: ... depravity.
Seth: Which helps explain the f- strange frame, phrase, "blaspheme the glorious ones."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: What are the men of Sodom and Gomorrah doing? They're blaspheming the holy ones-
David: Right
Seth: ... by trying to, by claiming moral authority for their own and trying to, to abuse these angels.
David: Right. They're trying to... I mean, in a way, I mean, like, sex, especially, like, that kind in Sodom and Gomorrah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which would've been closer to rape-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is, is, is a different kind of extremely evil and corrupt authority over another person.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That they were trying to take a sexual authority over these glorious ones, these appointed messengers from heaven, these angels.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I mean, could you think of a higher-handed sin than stepping outside-
Seth: Right
David: ... of God's moral authority to go a- try to take sexual authority over an angel? Like-
Seth: Right. And even angels have some... Even in a modern imagination, angels are, like, supposedly powerful-
David: Powerful
Seth: ... being-
David: Right
Seth: ... beings, and to assume you have an authority over an angel is just-
David: Crazy
Seth: ... crazy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or could overpower an angel is crazy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: And he's like, "And that's what y- these false teachers are doing."
Seth: By denying Jesus as Lord and Master, you are joining yourself to a long history of very vile types of people.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's the point he's making.
David: That's the point he's making, and that, and, and, and not only that connection, but that there is certain judgment for those types of people.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that they're, they are ignoring those parts of scripture-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to pervert the grace of God.
David: Right. They are picking and choosing their Sunday sermons, their Saturday sermons-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah
David: ... uh, and skipping over, um, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what happened when God said, "You can't come into the Promised Land," what happened whenever the angels were, were, were judged-
Seth: Mm
David: ... what happened at Sodom and Gomorrah.
Seth: Mm.
David: They're skipping those parts, and he's saying, "You ignorant people, don't you know your Bible?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's another way to understand that phrase, "blaspheme the glorious ones," which just proves our point further.
David: Mm.
Seth: So throughout the rest of the New Testament in, like, Hebrews 2 and Acts 7 and in Galatians 3, um, the apostles will talk about angels being used in the covenant ceremony at Mount Sinai-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where angels were there giving the law with Moses to God's people.
David: Yeah, they were the mediator between God and man of this covenant, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, yeah.
Seth: And so what i- what is the law? What is the covenant? It is God's expectations and proof that he is the moral master of the people of Israel.
David: It's the, yeah, the law is God's moral authority.
Seth: So to reject the law is a way to blaspheme, uh, like, blaspheming the angels-
David: Yes
Seth: ... blaspheming the glorious ones is to blaspheme those who mediated-
David: The law
Seth: ... God, the law, God's expectations for us.
David: Right.
Seth: So it could mean either one.
David: Yes.
Seth: I'm-
David: Yeah.
Seth: I go 50/50.
David: Yeah. They both prove the same point.
Seth: Both prove the same point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he goes further down the rabbit hole. [laughs]
David: Let's, let's get real deep into some-
Seth: So-
David: ... Jewish popular li- literature.
Seth: So this is also, this is from a, the, a Jewish popular book called The, the Ascension of Moses or the Testament of Moses.
David: Testament of, Testament of Moses.
Seth: And we actually don't have a full copy of this-
David: Oh, I didn't know that
Seth: ... manuscript. So the only... We have bits and pieces of it-
David: Huh
Seth: ... and then interpretations of that text-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but not actually the full text.
David: Crazy.
Seth: So it's a little disputed precisely what it means.
David: Ah.
Seth: But the story goes something like this-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that, um-
David: Story time
Seth: ... story time. So in Deuteronomy 34-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we're told that, uh, Moses is to be buried in a particular place.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's kind of a strange story because we're not told who's gonna bury them there. It's like there seems to be something special and maybe a little mystical going on-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with the bur-
David: It's a-
Seth: ... burial of Moses.
David: It's a, it's a classic, like, uh, Hebrew literature moment where there's gaps in the story-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that invites speculation, interpretation, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dreaming and, and ends up creating these, like, places for these books like The Testament of Moses-
Seth: Right. So here it's like-
David: ... to be written
Seth: ... "And Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab-"
David: Wait
Seth: "... in the valley opposite Beth Peor."
David: Who, God?
Seth: "But to, but to this day no one knows where his grave is." Wait.
David: Wait, wait. What?
Seth: Who buried Moses? [laughs]
David: Who, who buried him? Where? It's a, it's a murder mystery.
Seth: Nobody knows.
David: Yeah, and he just died, uh, how? God just said, "It's time to die."
Seth: It's mysterious.
David: So it's like we don't know exactly the cause of his death, who buried him, or where he was buried.
Seth: Right.
David: And so the Testament of Moses-
Seth: Tries to answer some of those questions
David: ... tries to answer some of those questions.
Seth: So in The Testament of Moses, um, there's an argument between Michael the archangel and the devil.
David: Oh, yeah, classic. I've read this story.
Seth: Classic.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: And in the popular version of the story, the devil claims to the angel that the body of Moses belongs to him because he murdered a man.
David: Oh, right, back, back whenever he was still kind of, uh-
Seth: In Egypt
David: ... in, in Egypt
Seth: ... and he murdered the Egyptian.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the devil being true to his character as the accuser, he's making an accusation-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... of Moses. "He belongs to me." But Michael, in that moment, could've said, "That's false because God has judged him as righteous." He could've said any number of things.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But he doesn't say any of those things. He says, "The Lord rebuke you." Now, that's a strange phrase in this context, but what he means by that is I'm leaving judgment in this case up to God.
David: Mm, yeah. I'm not gonna assume moral authority even over Satan.
Seth: Right. I'm not going to assume I have the right to judge somebody because that's God's authority alone.
David: Mm.
Seth: The devil's accusing you of belonging to him, but I'm not gonna make that claim. I'll let God judge.
David: Right. So you have an archangel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right, authority of authorities-
Seth: The highest angel
David: ... right, the highest angel talking to Satan-
Seth: Mm
David: ... someone who you basically patently could disagree with, you know, with very little qualms.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, talking about Moses, right? Moses. Who's like, "No, you can't bring a condemnation against Moses. Satan, get outta here."
Seth: Right.
David: Easy. I, I would, I would-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... have had that conversation so differently. I would've been like, "Shut up, Satan. Moses is-
Seth: Right
David: ... staying with us."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: This is a easy win.
Seth: Easy win.
David: And he's like, even the highest of angels talking to the lowest of beings-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... about a holy man is gonna leave judgment up to God.
Seth: It's-
David: But- [laughs]
Seth: It's a really simple point at the end of the day
David: I mean, that's a, that, that metaph- that like-
Seth: It's a-
David: ... that illusion packs a punch.
Seth: It does. Even in the Jewish populace for the day, even the highest heavenly beings wait for God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to be their master and judge.
David: Come on. Yeah.
Seth: These false teachers are just breaking with their own tradition, they're breaking with their Bibles, they're being ignorant.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and which is exactly what he says in verse 10. "These people," these false teachers, these leaders, "blaspheme everything they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that, by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively."
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're... Yeah.
David: I, I... That, that statement is really interesting. He, i- 'cause it's, it's two-sided. He's saying they're destroyed by what they don't understand, you know? He's calling them ignorant.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "You don't know your Bible, and you're gonna be destroyed by the fact that you don't."
Seth: Yep.
David: He's like, "Don't you know judgment is coming for those who step outside of God's moral authority?"
Seth: Yep.
David: Well, you're gonna be destroyed by what you don't know if you don't know that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, and then on the flip side, you, by what you do know, you are proving to be an unruly, unreasoning animal.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: Uh, like, you're gonna, and you're gonna be destroyed by that.
Seth: Yeah, you'll be destroyed by your own instincts, your own desires.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, you wanna say that my grace frees you to follow those desires.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But in fact, what you think you're now free to go do-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and will still be saved while doing is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... actually gonna lead to your destruction.
Seth: Yeah. The way that I put it in our devo for this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that in their ignorance and so-called freedom, these false teachers have become like animals ruled by whatever their heart desires.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he gives a, then Jude goes on to list more examples from the Old Testament of people who are ruled by their desires to their own destruction.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he says, "Woe to these people, um, for they walked in the way of Cain-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion."
David: So three stories.
Seth: Three stories, one sentence. [laughs]
David: Cain, Balaam, Korah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What, what, what do these people have in common?
Seth: Well, so Cain murdered his brother out of envy.
David: Okay.
Seth: Balaam sold out Israel in greed. And then Korah partnered with Balaam and committed treason against Israel so that he could have sex with whoever he wanted.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: These are all examples of leaders within Israel's history who are baited by their own lust-
David: Mm
Seth: ... into their own judgment.
David: And they, yeah, and they also... So they all wanted something.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that led to their demise.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They were destroyed by what they desired.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's a clear way to say it, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: They were destroyed by what they desired, so that's why he's bringing them up, but then also all of them share the exact same sin of the false teachers. They've all stepped outside God's moral authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, Cain was told, like, "Hey, if you do right, won't it go well for you?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then he goes and murders his brother. I don't think that's doing right.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know? [laughs] Like, uh, Balaam was told by God to only bless Israel, and he gave a, a, a lip service blessing on the mountain, but then went down to the camp and sowed discord and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... brought a curse.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and then Korah was supposed to submit to Aaron as the high priest-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and did not, committed treason against him and against Moses and brought charges against him, and the ground opened up and swallowed him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So they were-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: They all rejected a, the moral authority of God and were destroyed by what they desired.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay? That's the point.
Seth: It's, it's not a light book. [laughs]
David: It's not a light book.
Seth: The more we talk about it, the heavier it makes me feel. Um, and, and, and Jude's not done. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Oh, no.
Seth: He says these people, these false teachers, these leaders are like hidden reefs at your love feasts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the love feast was the communion meal-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which is generally their church service.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, they're hidden reefs at your love feasts. As they feast with you without fear. They're shepherds, another reason why I think they're the pastors of these churches-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... feeding themselves. Uh, they're like-
David: Instead of... A shepherd's supposed to feed the sheep.
Seth: Right.
David: Peter, feed my sheep.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: [laughs] It's just like-
Seth: But they're taking advantage of their church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, instead. They're like waterless clouds swept along by winds, fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted, wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame. And then he finally says, "They're wandering stars for whom the gloom of utter darkness, um, has been reserved forever."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's just intense metaphors.
David: All these, all these different metaphors are basically saying that they kind of give off a quick burst or, like, a, a deception of something helpful. Oh, they're a shepherd.
Seth: Mm.
David: Oh, but they're feeding themselves, right? Like, oh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... oh, clouds, maybe they're rain. Maybe there's gonna be rain for my land and my crops. No.
Seth: Yep.
David: Rainless. Oh, look, a tree, maybe we can eat. No, it's fruitless. Let's uproot it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, oh, look, a wave is cresting. Isn't it beaut- Oh, it's gone.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Oh, look, a star up in heaven. Oh, no, it's a comet, and it was sho- sh- shooting out in some random direction, and now it's stuck in utter darkness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like, oh, look, a great teacher preaching a word I really like. Oh, wait, this is a false teacher-
Seth: And-
David: ... and he's going to be destroyed. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay? [laughs] Sweet metaphors, Judah.
Seth: Yeah. And at this point, I, I wanna continue to lean into this hidden metaphor 'cause how he starts it. They're hidden reefs.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Because I was wrestling how to process this book because it's really easy to claim... Like, I've got people in my mind that I could call a false teacher.
David: Yeah.
Seth: People who have abdicated God's moral authority, living in a way that I dis- that I think is contrary to scripture. That's easy.
David: That's, yeah.
Seth: The fact-
David: Not super hidden.
Seth: Not super hidden. So it's like, it made me think, like, who do I not suspect?
David: Oh, man. [laughs]
Seth: Who do I as- because they agree with me assume are right in moral teachers?
David: That's a-
Seth: Right?
David: That's a scary question.
Seth: Exactly, and then it started [laughs] getting me to think, well, have I denied God's moral authority?
David: Mm.
Seth: Am I the false teachers in this narrative?
David: Mm.
Seth: Am I being lumped in with the people of Sodom? Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... am I continuing the Antichristic pattern of the devil? And I was like, I think, I think my answer has to be yes.
David: Mm.
Seth: If what we keep saying is, like, how you live reveals what you believe-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which maybe we haven't said that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that clearly yet, but, like, that's what the point he's making.
David: Right. He's saying your licentiousness and your, your refusal to follow God's moral authority proves that you don't believe in Jesus. He's not your master.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it made me just think of, like, all the times throughout yesterday I allowed my anger, my envy, or my pride to get the better of me.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I didn't feel like I could stop it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It felt like an instinct that took over in that moment.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I was like, I don't think I'm as immune from these passages as I want to think that I am, and I need to hear the warning of Jude that as if I continue to give into those, I align myself with this historic, deceptive lie that invites judgment.
David: Mm. I mean, my only pushback there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is you're not teaching that.
Seth: It's true.
David: You're talking about struggling with sin-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you're not promoting the fact that you can follow your desires and eschew God's moral authority and still be saved.
Seth: However-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I am teaching in this exact moment.
David: Yeah, you're teaching right now.
Seth: And if my moral life behind the scenes-
David: Mm
Seth: ... does not match the gospel I preach, I am a false teacher.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's part of what... That's not the full message of what he's saying here.
David: Yeah. I, I don't know.
Seth: Because-
David: Because, I mean, I mean, P- Paul was the chief of sinners.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So was he a false teacher?
Seth: If... I think if he wouldn't have even...
David: No, he was not.
Seth: He was not a false teacher.
David: He was not a false teacher. I, I'm just trying to say here that, like, there's a, there... I get where you're trying to get at-
Seth: Right
David: ... that we need to take these warnings seriously.
Seth: Yes.
David: But I also n- need, there needs to be a clear distinction between people even in this community to which Jude was writing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who were actively struggling with sin, we all do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and but still claimed Jesus' moral authority and were constantly trying to sync up with it and-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and be his slave, versus those who said, "No, Jesus is not your master. Do not follow his authority."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, "There's grace. Do what you want."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Teaching and being sanctifi- like, teaching heresy and actively being sanctified [laughs] are two different things.
Seth: Right.
David: I just wanna, I just wanna make sure there's a, a distinction.
Seth: Yes, there is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And my point goes back to the hiddenness.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't think they were speaking outright heresy necessarily.
David: Mm.
Seth: I don't think they got up on a Sunday ser- during one of their Sunday services and said, "Jesus is not your moral master." I think that everyone... That's not being a hidden reef.
David: Right.
Seth: That's not coming in-
David: Those kind of people don't creep in unnoticed.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think they, by what it sounded like, it sounded like they were good and orthodox.
David: Mm.
Seth: But as you dug into their lives, it proved they were part of a deeper pr- pattern where they continued to justify their sin-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in one way or another. And so I think you're right. I'm not a false teacher.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: H- I hope I'm [laughs] not a false teacher.
David: You're not a false teacher.
Seth: But-
David: Hey, who's, who's, who's Lord?
Seth: Jesus.
David: Jesus.
Seth: He is Lord.
David: There you go. Yeah, you're good. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: But what, what I... The reason I-
David: But I get it. I get it. Yes
Seth: ... the reason I was leaning there too was to go back to, like, how he ends the letter.
David: Yes.
Seth: So I just, which we'll get to it in a second.
David: Yeah, we will.
Seth: But I was like-
David: But, yeah, a- I mean, a- and you're... Me, I don't wanna, I don't wanna escape from your point either.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I just wanted to make sure we had a distinction-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that, like, there's a very clear thing that Jude is doing here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I think there's a deep way that we as people who are trying to be slaves of Jesus-
Seth: Right
David: ... can still be convicted by this book, and I think that's what you're trying to do.
Seth: Yes, and, like, the fact that we can repent of those things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is proof we're not a false teacher.
David: That's right.
Seth: So you can admit that in your life-
David: Right
Seth: ... yesterday-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you did not submit, uh, to Jesus, you did not act as he w- as if he was your Lord and Master.
David: Right.
Seth: But if you can admit that rather than justifying that-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you're not a false teacher.
David: That's right. If-
Seth: If you-
David: ... you'd been like, "Yeah, I was thinking about this and just thinking about all the ways that I just did not line up with-
Seth: Mm
David: ... God's moral authority yesterday. I was angry, I did this, I did that," and I just re- I just remembered that it j- ultimately doesn't matter 'cause God's grace covers it, and it's okay if I'm angry today too 'cause that'll happen-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and it's fine. And it's like there's no repentance, there's no mourning of sin, there's no longing to be conformed to the image of Jesus.
Seth: Right.
David: You're not calling Jesus your master there. You're creating your own moral authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's not what's happening here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but, but yes, I think we, we do need to watch out for the, the reefs in our life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that seek to sink the ship.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: So, so as we land the pl- as, as Jude lands the plane-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the false teachers' rejection of God as moral, their moral authority, he goes to the book of 1 Enoch-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... again.
David: And actually quotes it this time.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Doesn't just, like, riff on a story or apply some kind of metaphorical thing. He actually quotes the book of 1 Enoch in the New Testament.
Seth: Yeah, and he says, "Behold," this is what Enoch said, "Behold, the Lord comes with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict all," and now let's for the word ungodly, "to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that have committed, that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the, the harsh thing the ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These are grumblers, malcontents, followers of their own sinful desires, loudmouth boasters, and showing favoritism to gain advantage.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's his-Landing, um, rebuke-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to the false teachers.
David: They're un- wh- wh- why choose something that, why choose a, a quote, and a long quote at that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, when, when ink and paper were so expensive to- to say ungodly so many times? Is he trying to hammer at something? Like-
Seth: I mean, the fact that they weren't godly [laughs] probably.
David: [laughs] I was trying to think like what that, how that ties into the rest of his point, like is over... I mean, he's just like, "Oh, no, we can have God and not have his moral authority."
Seth: Right, that's ungodliness.
David: And he's saying, "No, you are ungodly."
Seth: That's ungodliness.
David: You don't have God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Maybe that's just what he's getting at there.
Seth: Right, you don't have the gospel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if you justify your moral evil by appealing to the gospel.
David: Ah, yes.
Seth: Like, you're saying God's grace covers... You use God's grace as an excuse for your perversion. That's not the gospel. You're using the gospel to justify your bad behavior, and therefore you are ungodly, separated from God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and don't have the God you claim to have.
David: It's also, yeah, it's also interesting here that hi- his quote from Enoch is doing a couple of things. One, he's saying that there is this prediction in the Book of Enoch that God will come with 10,000 holy ones, the, the people you've been blaspheming, the angels you've been blaspheming.
Seth: Right.
David: Ironic rebuke, um-
Seth: But apparently you like to read about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in your day- daily life.
David: Yeah. [laughs] It's so funny. They're gonna come to execute judgment. They're gonna do... That's gonna happen.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's been his point the whole time.
Seth: Right.
David: But the next thing that that quote says is also really interesting, and it's to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they've committed in an ungodly way. It's just like they're going to not, like, not just be judged, but there's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... going to be a conviction held.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like-
Seth: And like, that's, like, more like a sentencing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you think? Yeah.
David: Yeah. Well, yeah. I-
Seth: Well-
David: Well, I w- I'm, I'm a little disappointed because I thought where I was gonna be able to go with this was that they were gonna be convinced of their-
Seth: Ah
David: ... ungodliness, but that's not what's being said here. 'Cause I was gonna say, like, oh, if you're a convicted murderer, you know that you did it wrong. I mean, like, that's not, it's not the case.
Seth: You're, you're a sentenced murderer.
David: You're a sentenced... Yeah, so that's what's happening here. Okay, anyway, and then he doubles down on this prediction 'cause he's just trying to get you to see that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the Old Testament, now in the predictions of Enoch, and now he's gonna say, "And even Jesus and our apostles-"
Seth: Mm
David: "... who passed down the faith once for all and trusted to the saints, they also predicted the same thing that, uh, false teachers would rise up-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: "... and follow their ungodly passions, and they're gonna be judged."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he, he quotes, he kind of cobbles together a quote from different apostles and even Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... about these false teachers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yep.
David: So th- that, that all happens, and, and it's like we get to the end of the letter, and, I mean, I remember this morning when I was reading it, I read it, I think I read it, like, three times just going, like, "How do I... I mean, we're Spoken Gospel. How do I see the gospel here?" And I was just, like, praying, and I was like, "God, can you help me see the light of the gospel in the face of Jesus Christ in Jude?" And I was just, like, struggling.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then we got together, and we, our team prayed through the book this morning and felt like it all came-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to light finally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we're really excited to share it with you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So go ahead and talk about how the, how the letter ends.
Seth: Yeah, the letter ends with an encouragement to the people within the church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is why I really wanted the indictment against the false teachers to land on me.
David: Mm.
Seth: He ends it with a command or an encouragement to the people within the church underneath these false teachers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But he says this, "Build yourself up," which is a reference to the temple.
David: Oh.
Seth: You know?
David: Yeah, yeah, probably, like the temple's built up in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... holiness and things like that. Yep.
Seth: Yeah. A- in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. Um, the way that I wrote it in my, my notes was like you build yourself into a, to God's house, grounded in God's gospel and built with prayer and the Spirit-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and love of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... while you patiently wait for the mercy of Jesus towards sinners like you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So and that's why I, like, that, like, man, like, I've, multiple times throughout my week do not... I deny that Jesus is Lord and Master.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But as I wait on the mercy of my Lord Jesus Christ, as I keep myself in God's love and pray in the Spirit, I'm actually being built up into the place where God dwells.
David: Mm.
Seth: And, like, he keeps me in his good news and forgiveness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think that keeping-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is probably the best good news of the Book-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Jude.
David: Yeah, 'cause I think, like, twofold. I think, one, like, what you explored, like... Man, I mean, yeah, I feel like I fall into the same cycle-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... of all those Old Testament stories we just talked, talked about.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, I remember when we had not gotten into the New Testament yet, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: In Spoken Gospel, we were riding through all the Torah and all these other history books, and it just, it felt like I was stuck in the downward spiral of sin in Israel's history, and then Jude's gonna go bring up all these stories. And I'm like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "Yeah, I think that's me, too."
Seth: I thought I was out of this.
David: Yeah, it's like, man, I guess that's me. I guess I just am a, my heart's a big hidden reef, and in my, the, the ship of my life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is gonna hit it and be sunk asunder, you know? And it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but Jesus is able to keep you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you, it won't be a downward spiral into sin but an upward spiral into conformity, into his image-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and under his moral authority.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then the other side is also just like imagine being in this community and reading this letter. You're, there, okay, you're, you're telling me in my community, sneaking in unnoticed, are a bunch of false teachers, and I didn't even know it?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: How can I survive in a religious landscape where there is just false teachers lurking everywhere?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, think about how many people going through deconversion right now in our age-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... are just like, "How can I trust the church again?"
Seth: Right.
David: How can I go somewhere? I, I try to give my heart to this church and was led astray by a false teacher. Try to go to this church and was led astray by a moral corrupt teacher.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: How can I everBe assured that, like, I can make it through life-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as a Christian if all my leaders are false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, it's because Jesus is able to keep you.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: It's good, just good news. [laughs]
Seth: It's good news. It, the Book of Jude begins with this phrase, "To those who are called beloved in God the Father and kept for-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus Christ," g- there is a way in which God is keeping people who admit that Jesus is their, their Lord and master-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for Him. Like, He's preserving them. He's-
David: Wow
Seth: ... helping them not become that person anymore. And then it says here that we can keep ourselves in the love of God by meditating on His mercy and waiting patiently for it. And then it says others can also help keep us in that faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Have mercy on those who doubt. Who are those that doubt? Those who doubt that Jesus is coming to judge-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Jesus is their moral master.
David: It's, it's crazy-
Seth: And you could s-
David: ... after everything He said, that there's mercy for them. [laughs]
Seth: Save others by snatching them out of the fire. We have two examples of fire already.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's possible to snatch them out of it by our mercy on them.
David: Oh, man. Yeah. It's crazy to think about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot and his wife fleeing from the city. Like, that's the judgment that's coming for those who doubt that God is the moral authority. And I, I mean, my mind fills with people in my life that are in that state.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, my hope for them wanes, you know what I mean?
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: Like, and it's like, "Oh, David, show mercy to them because, like, God wants to snatch them up."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, He can save them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He can res- if He can rescue Lot from Sodom and Gomorrah, He can rescue your-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... friend struggling with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... submitting to God's moral authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm just like, "That's crazy."
Seth: There is a preserving power of the community of Go- b- of God Himself and the community of God-
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah
Seth: ... that He wa- that, that Jude wants us to end on. Because we can, one, be led astray by these false teachers. We can become unwittingly false teachers ourself. But God has chosen us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's brought us near to Himself, kept us for Himself. We can remind ourselves and keep us in Jesus as we meditate on His love. Others can snatch us back when we start to admit that Jesus is not-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... our moral master anymore. And then the, it ends with, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to-
David: Mm
Seth: ... present you blameless before the presence of His holi- of His glory with great joy, to God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, dominion, authority forever."
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the good news, is that in a world that will always tempt you, and in a world that began with a temptation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to define your own good and evil-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: There is a God keeping you close to Him.
David: He's able to do it.
Seth: He's able to pr- keep you from stumbling. He's able to keep you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for Jesus. He's enabled people in your community to snatch you from the fire that you wanna touch.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm just, I'm trying to think, like, what is it about... 'Cause it's, it says that He's able to present us blameless before His glory-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm like, what is it about Jesus Himself that guarantees a keeping, a perseverance, you know? Like-
Seth: Like in Jesus' character? In, like, what are you doing across?
David: Or in, in the gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, what is it about His, His life, His death, His resurrection, His ascension, His second coming? What is it about the essentials of the gospel that guarantee a perseverance? I mean, He made the promise. He said, "None of those who my Father has given me I will lose."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? So, like, Jesus' own admission is that anyone who's His, He's gonna keep forever.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, He's like, "I'm good at that. I can do that. I'm a good shepherd."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? "I keep my sheep safe."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'm not gonna-
Seth: I'm gonna take advantage of them
David: ... I'm not gonna take advantage of them. I'm not gonna feed myself when they need to eat. I'm a good shepherd."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, it's, it's... And he, he's powerful enough to do it, you know, to actually keep us. Um, but it's also just like there's this, there's this lack of stumbling and this blamelessness with which we'll be presented before God, and it's that that is accomplished through Christ. And I'm just like, what makes it to where I'm blameless before Christ? And this is almost like a weird, like, fine line that you have to walk in Jude, 'cause it's like it's the grace of Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that takes a sinner like me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and presents me blameless before God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is, like, the kind of grace that these false teachers wanted to pull on.
Seth: Yeah. You... Ri- right.
David: Yeah, like, like, "You can live however you want. You'll be blameless before, before God." And then Jude ends with a kind of promise like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's that, like, no, no, no, but there's a huge difference in the posture of the heart of the person who uses that grace for license-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and those who uses that grace for obedience-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as slaves to their master, Jesus.
Seth: Yeah, the gospel saves sinners, but it doesn't free us to sin.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, yeah, like, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a fine line.
David: Right.
Seth: I mean, I tell m- I tell my kids this every night before I go to bed, and it makes me nervous-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the older and more disobedient they get.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, or more complex their-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... disobedience gets. It's, like, do you know that just because you disobeyed me, I don't love you any less?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And do, do you know that because I don't, I, I don't love you any more when you obey me perfectly? Well, if my love's not on the line, why not?
David: Mm.
Seth: Every night I tell them, "It doesn't matter how you behave, I will always love you."
David: Right.
Seth: It's, uh, and so I'm, find myself nervous as a parent-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to, like, just give them that because, like, what threat do they h- like, d- d- it feels-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like I've given them no reason to behave well.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the, the reality of what I'm trying to do in that moment is, "No, respond to my love in kind."
David: Right.
Seth: "I love you this way so that you might love me in return."
David: Right. And you, and you still, they're still, like, regular-Lower case P punishments that you have for your kids
Seth: We call them disciplines
David: Disciplines, right?
Seth: Yeah
David: Like, "Oh, go to your room"
Seth: Yeah
David: Right? I mean, that's, that's a parent, that's a parent Sodom and Gomorrah. [laughs] You know? Like, and so it's not that you're, you're denying-
Seth: Right now it's throwing away the Halloween candy
David: There... Oh, that's a good one. Yeah
Seth: [laughs] That is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... hell fire. [laughs]
David: That's hell fire and brimstone. And so it's like you, you're like, "Look back at, at how I've parented", right? Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... when you've done this, there's been punishment.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Let me sna- let my love and mercy-
Seth: Right
David: ... snatch you from the fire.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now, but God, like, never changed his character and-
Seth: Right
David: ... his posture toward humanity. He al- has always loved us and desired us to be saved
Seth: Mm-hmm. He has persevered in his love towards us
David: He's persevered. He's kept his love
Seth: He's kept his own love. Yes.
David: Yeah. That's so good.
Seth: And, and it, what, I've, we've talked about this a couple times off air, but how interesting it is in that a book a- all about judgment-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that Jude doesn't reverse it and say-
David: Right. Don't worry, Jesus bore your judgment for you
Seth: Right. But that's also really true.
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: So how does he present us blameless?
David: Right
Seth: By taking all of our anti-Christness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by taking all of our false teacherness. All the times that we've denied Jesus as Lord and Master, he bore in his body on the cross so that we might live to righteousness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to godliness. Like-
David: Right. And I think it's that we might live to righteousness, to godliness, is also the point. That, um, it's not only that Jesus was our substitute and took the Sodom and Gomorrah judgment we deserved, it, right-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it's also that he is, he is helping us through his Holy Spirit as we pray in the Spirit, as we're not devoid of the Spirit, we're being built up into a holy place. You know?
Seth: Yeah, where God lives in us now.
David: Yeah
Seth: Yeah
David: Like, we, he will keep us from stumbling, to keep making us holy, so that when we stand before the Lord, we actually, like, will be blameless before him.
Seth: Yeah
David: We won't want to sin before him
Seth: And we'll be fully human
David: Yeah
Seth: How, what, what are you when you follow your desires? You're an animal.
David: Animal
Seth: When we finally live in righteousness, we will be fully and truly human for the first time.
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: And that's what J- and that's part of what Jesus saves us for
David: Yeah. That's so cool. Man, well, that-
Seth: Was the Book of Jude
David: ... is the Book of Jude. We could've read the Book of Jude, like, 10 times
Seth: We really could have
David: Uh-
Seth: I don't know if you would've understood it much more. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I certainly didn't as I studied for my many hours in this.
David: But yes, um, yeah, so that's the Book of Jude. Uh, I hope you guys enjoyed it. Uh, we really enjoyed studying it and, and being here with you today, so thank you so much for listening
Seth: Yeah, and next week we have a special announcement for you guys
David: Ooh, teaser
Seth: So get ready
David: Yeah, so we'll see you guys there. Thanks for listening.
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