Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: I'm feeling well.
David: Yeah?
Seth: Uh, yeah, I got my COVID vaccine.
David: You did, yeah.
Seth: Which-
David: You're now, um, like-
Seth: Half vaccinated
David: ... half vaccinated.
Seth: Kind of. Like-
David: You're now half a superhero. [laughs]
Seth: Half a superhero. I'm like skim milk.
David: Like s- [laughs]
Seth: Like I'm like just halfway there.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Halfway to the real thing. [laughs]
David: Amazing.
Seth: Uh, yeah. Today we're gonna continue our time in Obadiah, kind of.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we said last week that this would be our, our last day in, in Obadiah 'cause it's so short.
Seth: Mm.
David: But as we left the book, we realized there was like a huge thing in this book that like we haven't really gotten to take a lot of time personally or on air to meditate on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that is?
Seth: Uh, the idea of Jesus as our brother.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the whole story of the Book of Obadiah is one of sibling rivalry-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... kind of like stretching on for centuries.
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and these two brothers becoming these two nations, and they're fighting with one another.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that battle kinda continues through the Biblical history. And what kinda... And we talked about how the battle between Edom and Jacob-
David: Mm
Seth: ... continued all the way up to the time of Jesus. And as I was studying-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and I realized that, uh, Josephus, he, uh... I didn't, I guess I didn't realize that Josephus. I was reading Josephus, and he s- he-
David: And Josephus was a Jewish historian
Seth: ... a Jewish historian
David: ... who lived around the time of Jesus.
Seth: And he records that Herod-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... King Herod that murdered-
David: Oh
Seth: ... j- the boys in, uh, Bethlehem-
David: Right
Seth: ... was an Edomite.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: So Jesus is a son of Jacob, and Herod is a son of Edom, repeating what the Book of Obadiah i- was talking about, repeating the conflict all the way back in the book of Genesis between Jacob and Esau. And we're like, "Oh, my gosh."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "It's a whole thing."
David: It's a whole thing.
Seth: Sibling rivalry marks even the gospel story.
David: Yes. So yeah, let's, let's real quickly recap. I forgot about that Herod thing.
Seth: Right. Isn't that crazy?
David: That is crazy.
Seth: So like I'm so excited to talk about the, the gospel as a resolution-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to sibling rivalry-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and good news for those people who are estranged from their brothers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who've never had a brother, who've lost their brother.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, what does it mean for Jesus to be our, the better, older brother?
David: Yeah. Um, so I think to, like, try to position ourselves in the need for this story, I think you've obviously identified some felt needs that people would have for, like, why do I need the good news of Jesus as my brother? Well, one, it's in the Bible.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Jesus calls himself our brother. Paul says that Jesus is our brother. So we need to, we need that bit of good news. Uh, uh, two, maybe, like you've said, you, you feel the need for a brother. You've lost a brother. You never had a brother.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and there's other things there. But, um, there's also, like, a clear, like you've pointed out, Biblical history of a problem of fractured brotherhood, that, um, there are brothers, estranged, estranged brothers of God's people, right? Those are... That's Esau and his descendent- descendants-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... were part of God's people at one point, when they were in, uh, their mother's womb. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: And then they were fractured.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they sold their birthright, and their, uh, inheritance was, was stolen from them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or taken away from them, however you wanna read that story.
Seth: Yeah, and the twins that were inside, uh... Oh, gosh.
David: I know. Isaac's wi-
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's why I said in their mother's womb.
Seth: [laughs] In their mother's womb.
David: It's J-
Seth: J-
David: It's J-
Seth: Leah?
David: Rebecca?
Seth: Rebecca? My gosh.
David: Rachel?
Seth: I sh- we're Bible, we're, we're pseudo Bible scholars. [laughs]
David: And we-
Seth: We should know the name [laughs] of Jacob. Rachel.
David: Rachel.
Seth: Right?
David: Isaac and Rebecca, I think.
Seth: We should probably-
David: Isaac and Rebecca sounds right to me.
Seth: Uh, regardless of the-
David: It's i- it's Rebecca.
Seth: It's Rebecca.
David: It's Rebecca.
Seth: We got, we... Guys, we know what we're doing. [laughs] Uh-
David: This just, this humanizes us.
Seth: It does. It, it does. [laughs] But the, uh... You were saying, like, in the same way that Esau and Jacob were fighting in Rebecca's womb.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's also, like, that's also, like, a spiritual picture of us fighting not just with our biological brothers, but, like, God our brother, Jesus our brother.
David: Yes, absolutely.
Seth: And one of the things that did help me visualize that was John 3:3.
David: Mm.
Seth: When Jesus is talking to Nicodemus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he says, "Nicodemus, don't you know that you must be born again?"
David: Hmm.
Seth: As if he's, like, reflecting back on the Old Testament. And, and Nicodemus is a teacher of the Old Te-
David: He's a Pharisee.
Seth: He's a Pharisee.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's a teacher of the Old Testament law. He would know that the narrative of scripture tends towards the being born again-ness of a human being.
David: Huh.
Seth: And then, [laughs] and so I was like, "Oh, my gosh." So, like... And then Nicodemus misunderstands. He's like, "What are you... I go back in-"
David: I go back in my mom? [laughs]
Seth: "... in my mom?" No, it's like, no, it's a spiritual rebirth. But the point I think is fascinating is that you have this sibling rivalry in the womb of Rebecca-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... between Esau and Jacob. We are called Jesus' brother, and there's a type of spiritual womb, a spiritual rebirth that happens in baptism, where Jesus, our twin brother, is joined to us, and that res- uh, and the tension that started in-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Rebecca's womb is resolved in the womb of the grave-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the, the tomb, uh, after the cross-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the waters of baptism. I was like, "That feels-
David: Okay, there's something there
Seth: ... super interesting to me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: E-
David: I'm still... Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: No, no. Even, like, and even, uh, Jesus talks about being born of the water and of the spirit, as if the water and the spirit is the, the womb from which we are born again-
David: Right, yes
Seth: ... as Jesus' brother and co-heir.
David: Right.Interesting.
Seth: Anyway.
David: I think yeah I, I think like all the, all the pieces line up to be like there's a clear Biblical theology, a, a, a theme that's traced through the Bible that we wanna pick up here. I think where I'm still scratching my head is like one, how would Nicodemus have known-
Seth: [laughs] Right
David: ... that he needed to be born again? So I'm like, okay, I need to keep meditating on, um, birth estrangement from God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like I am, what it... Like Edom, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: The nation of Edom was, lived right next to Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They shared some DNA with the people of Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, but they were estranged from God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like they were outside of his covenant people. They weren't a part of the people who were gonna take the land and be a blessing to all nations-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as it was promised to Father Abraham.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, they were outside the covenant people who got the law from Mount Sinai and Moses. Like this was a different estranged people. They were, as Paul says, I think in Ephesians, they were outside the commonwealth of Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Um, and I, I don't, I don't think I've... I just don't think I meditate on that very much, um, just because it's like, oh, we're in Christ. Like that racial distinction, that ethnic distinction I should say, is gone.
Seth: Between Edomite and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Jew-
David: Between Edomite-
Seth: ... Judite
David: ... and Judite.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it's like that's a bigger deal than we think about in today's time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So like what, what does that... What's on the line there? Like what's the problem? Like is it that you, you needed to be a part of God's covenant family or else? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... like why, why is estrangement from the covenant people of God in Israel bad news? I think that's what I'm trying to meditate on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then if you were not part of it, you would need to be born again-
Seth: Right
David: ... in order to be a part of it.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: You would need to have your DNA remanufactured [laughs]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order to be born of Rebecca, you know.
Seth: Yeah, rather than... Or even Paul uses similar language about being born of Hagar-
David: Hagar
Seth: ... and Sarah.
David: Yeah
Seth: It's like there's, there is something happening here.
David: Integrations.
Seth: Even in the fact that Mary is bo- like Jesus is conceived by the Spirit.
David: Uh-huh. But also by a woman.
Seth: By a woman and s- and we too are conceived into new humanity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by the Spirit of God.
David: After being born by a woman.
Seth: After being born by a woman.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like there are parallels here. What's on the line if we are, if we are the s- estranged brother-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from our brother Jesus?
David: Yeah.
Seth: If Jesus is Jacob-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we are Esau, what's on the line is kind of like what we see playing out through the story. Like there will always be an inherent hostility in us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... towards the God, right? I mean-
David: Yes
Seth: ... although that doesn't feel like anything's on the line, especially when I enjoy being hostile to God, [laughs] you know?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like or we enjoy hostile to his-
David: Well, I mean that's part of the problem though, right? Like th- like the story of Obadiah, you see that the Edomites, the descendants of Esau, were so like opposed to God and Israel that they would, they were like vultures coming in to pick out, like to like eat off the carcass of dead Israelites basically.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, like Israel had been ransacked, and they had so little compassion for them-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that they didn't even think it was a problem. They were boasting in the fact that they were looting the town.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet this was their demise. And so I think it's actually really bad news for those of us who are estranged from God, estranged from, um, being in God's family, that we sin and enjoy sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And yet-
Seth: We don't see a problem with that
David: ... we don't see it as a problem. And like we are going to be destroyed for that.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And it's like we need to be reborn to have that arrogance and pride-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and, um, blindness to sin taken away-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that we can start acting like with a new set of genes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know? [laughs] Like to be acting like Jesus, like to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... be able to be like our big brother.
Seth: Yeah. And this, this is interesting how Edom's animosity towards Israel began because Jacob tricked him, right?
David: Uh-huh. Yes, yes, yes.
Seth: And I'm like I'm trying to think about that too, so like is the na- the chosen nation of Israel-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... was born on a trick.
David: Right.
Seth: And-
David: It was a sovereignly ordained trick.
Seth: But like-
David: But a trick nonetheless
Seth: ... part of me is like, isn't Edom kind of right-
David: Right
Seth: ... to be frustrated with Israel?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Doesn't he have like a legitimate bone to pick with the guy who manipulated him out of his birthright and then tricked his way into getting the blessing from his father?
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, 'cause the story that is in Genesis is a little more thorny than just like, well, chosen people, non-chosen people.
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: Edom is arrogant and proud s- from the beginning. It's like, well-
David: Well, not really
Seth: ... well, Jacob, what about this guy over here?
David: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people do point out that like the fact that Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew is a indicator that he didn't value it, like didn't value being a part of the people of God, God's chosen line.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He was like, "I don't care about that promise. I'd rather eat."
Seth: Right.
David: Like so he devalued the promise of being in God's chosen line.
Seth: Yes.
David: And Jacob valued it.
Seth: I've... Yes.
David: So anyway, that's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... so there is maybe some sin there.
Seth: Yeah. Anyway-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, I was, uh, the reason why I bring that up is to maybe even say like the i- the felt need-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the idea of reconciliation between brothers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... might actually be the Biblical need as well. Like there is kind of like an ancient divide between brothers-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that like is kind of n- speaks to like the formation of a nation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but also speaks to the formation of, of the people of God. Like even when we go back to the Garden of Eden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Cain and Abel, we have another-
David: Fractured brotherhood
Seth: ... fractured brotherhood, which is a picture of the fractured union between God and mankind.
David: And man and man.
Seth: And man and man. Like, right.
David: Yeah. We, we, we have division between-Other humans
Seth: And so it's almost as if that, um, estrangement from your brother is the fall.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there is a sense like that feeling of being disconnected from your brother, having animosity towards your brother, feeling like you can't reconcile with your brother-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... being fearful of your brother is the basic state of human beings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... part outside of Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, so, like, what's on the line if we don't see this? Like, well, we, one, we miss God's design for human families-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but also eternal families. And, like, we miss the hope of one day being reconcile, reconciled with our physical flesh and blood brothers, right?
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Whether that's like they've evolved into nations 600 years from now-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... like the David clan and the Seth clan are one day at war. Um-
David: I could see that happening.
Seth: Yeah, I could see that happening too. [laughs]
David: [laughs] But, yeah, I get that. Um, I think the only, the, the only thing I'll put on the line, and then we can move into fulfillment-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, like, there is a Biblical pattern of familial salvation, like being saved based on who your family is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I think the quintessential picture of this is Noah, right? Where a remnant of the earth was saved, eight people in all, right-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I think is what-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Peter says. Um, eight people in all saved by the ark because of who? Noah and his righteousness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he had his sons, and their s- and their sons had their brothers all in the boat, and their wives, you know? And it's like there was this remnant saved by the family connection.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Esau sold his way out of that family connection by selling his birthright. Um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and Jacob kept it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so he was saved by the fact, even though he was a trickster, saved by the fact that he was still familially connected to the covenant line-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of Abraham. And so there is a theological need here, I just wanted to point out, that there's a theological need for us to be connected to the tree. Like the, the, the, the, like this was-
Seth: The family line, the-
David: The family line, the family tree of Abraham. I mean, I'm trying to use Romans 9 lang- or Romans-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, what is that? 11? Yeah, Romans 11 language-
Seth: Yeah. Mm-hmm
David: ... where it's talking about how Gentiles are grafted in to the tree.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, that's something that must happen, that we, myself as a, as a non, uh, ethnic Jew, I have to be humbly grafted into the family of Abraham, and that now I am now part of Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And, like, I just don't think we, we think about that very often. I think we tend to dilute Israel into it doesn't matter-
Seth: Right
David: ... because all nations. No, it matters. All nations are now in Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we are humbly grafted in, and so we need to be reborn-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that we can be Israelites [laughs]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, in-
Seth: That's right
David: ... Christ.
Seth: That's right.
David: We are now in the chosen family because it's not bloodlines, you know, Paul will say in Galatians, it's not bloodlines that make you an Israelite or a true Jew-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as he would say. It is faith in God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Faith in Jesus. That's what made Abraham the chosen. Like, what is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he trusted God.
Seth: What's on the line is that whenever we t- hear all these, like, judgments against the nations-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what's on the line is, like, those judgments still stand against the nations.
David: That's right.
Seth: God's promises have only ever always gone towards Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's only by being in Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... that we can, by being in Jacob, not Edom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, that we can actually experience the blessing that God promises.
David: Right.
Seth: And the thing that Israel didn't see in the Old Testament, couldn't see in the New Testament in Jesus, and which apparently Nicodemus had a hard time seeing [laughs] as well, was that the way that you could be grafted in wasn't just by physical lineage.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's a spiritual type of birth that was happening, not just all the way back in Abel and in the birth of Jacob and his grabbing at the covenant that was Esau's and the trick there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But there's, there was a faithfulness there too that we join into-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it's by that faith that we get in the family tree.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because everything else is not promised to stand.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep, faith only.
Seth: I think, I think I missed that. I think that, oh yeah, you're right, because all nations are part of, part of the world now-
David: Right
Seth: ... are part of God's plan, therefore the whole world's fine. Well, yes, but only when they're connected to the family tree of Abraham.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh, so do that b- or else. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: You know? [laughs]
David: Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. So it's like whenever we, um, as 21st century Gentiles who believe in Jesus [laughs] as the Son of God and our brother, we have the opportunity to read the b- the, um, like curses against the nations at the end of Obadiah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as things that will not fall on us. Why?
Seth: Why?
David: Well, because we are true Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And, like, God has promises that extend to us.
Seth: Yeah, Jacob's our spir- Jacob is our brother.
David: Yep, Jacob's our brother.
Seth: Jacob's our brother.
David: And so because the covenant was extended to Jacob and we are in his line through faith, not blood-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... then we're safe.
Seth: Yeah, and it's kind of like, it's almost like on this side of the cross, like, we have the opportunity to choose which family we wanna be adopted in.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: You know, it's like, or, or as Paul would say, we, we, we come pre-adopted into the family of Edom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... everyone's born adopted an Edom.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, but you can, by faith, be adopted into the family of Jacob.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: The family of Jacob.
David: Paul would say, like, you are by nature, by birth, children, sons-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of wrath.
Seth: Sons of Edom.
David: Sons of Edom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Sons of destruction.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, by nature. Like, your dad is wrath. Your dad is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... destruction. Your dad is Edom.
Seth: And what's, and think about too the picture that you have of wrath in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Obadiah.
David: Right.
Seth: You have Edom, this jealous, angry, vicious brother taking advantage of his little brother and shipping him and partnering with the superpower of Syria to sell them into slavery.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like that's the picture of our spiritual father, Edom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's the family we're born into.
David: Right, and that's how we treat our other, our brothers around us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But we have the opportunity by faith-To be adopted into-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the family of Jacob and to, um, be remade, reborn-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and have our genes rejiggered-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you know, to start living in different ways.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's cool. Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I get what's on the line. So you wanna talk about-
Seth: Yes. Let's talk about how Jesus is our better older brother, and how Jesus brings us into that family tree. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we said we're gonna meditate on Jesus as our brother now that we know what's on the line-ish. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We need to now meditate on how Jesus fulfills this broken brotherhood that we have been born into, but have been reconciled out of by having faith in Him.
Seth: Yeah, I mean, the, the, the idea that we're brothers is probably most clearly seen in the idea of adoption.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: So it's like... And normally when adoption is talked about by Paul and the Epistle writers, it's normally about our adoption. God is our father and we are His sons.
David: Yes.
Seth: But by default-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... if G- Jesus is God's son, that means he's our brother.
David: If we've been, yeah, if we've been-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... adopted to have God as our father, and Jesus's fath- like, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jesus' father is God, we have the same father, therefore, we're brothers.
Seth: Therefore, we're brothers. Now, and that idea doesn't, is not given as much airtime as the idea of God being our father.
David: Right.
Seth: That's the big piece of good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, that we, that's focused on a lot. But there is a secondary idea that we are Jesus' brother.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that is a unique aspect of the good news that should make us worship.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's picked up a few different times in the New Testament.
David: Okay.
Seth: I've got, uh, Romans eight, uh, Hebrews two, and even in Jesus' own ministry, he says it in Joh- ah, Mark-
David: Mark
Seth: ... uh, three, uh, Mark three I believe. Where did I put it in my notes? Mark 3:32 and 35.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, maybe start in Mark since Jesus kinda introduces the idea for us.
David: Okay. Yeah. Mark three.
Seth: Yeah, Mark 3:32-35.
David: All right.
Seth: Um, and here, Jesus is talking to a group of people, as he often did. Um, and h- his parents come to him while he's in the middle of talking to a group of people wanting healing, and they say, "Jesus, your m- brother and mother are outside. Your family's outside."
David: Right. It would be very taboo in this moment that Jesus is hosting all these crowds of people, um, and le- and leaving his mom and brothers outside. Like, in an honor shame culture-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that is, has strong family ties, this is extremely disrespectful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, um-
Seth: I'm doing the work of ministry, Mom, hold on.
David: Right.
Seth: That's, you just don't do that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, and even more so, you don't serve guests and estrange your mom-
Seth: Right
David: ... in this culture. That is just wrong.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so like-
Seth: But-
David: ... uh, you're committing a huge cultural taboo here, Jesus. He's like, "You're leaving your mother and your brothers out in the cold." And then Jesus replies-
Seth: "So, well, who are my mother and my brother?" [laughs]
David: He uses it as a teaching moment.
Seth: Yeah. He said, and then he looks ar-
David: It's like, what a dumb question, Jesus.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Who are my mother and my brother? You don't know? [laughs]
Seth: Uh, and then he looks over, uh, looked at those seated in the circle around him, so these are the people that had just wit- Jesus witnessed do a miracle and doing all this stuff, and he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
David: Mm.
Seth: The person who is part of Jesus' family is the person who does God's will-
David: Right
Seth: ... keeps God's law.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is actually entirely consistent with the Old Testament.
David: Mm.
Seth: Who is part of God's family? Who is true Israel? The one that obeys God's law.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Like, that's every covenant curse ever listed in the prophets is always tied to breaking God's law-
David: Right
Seth: ... breaking God's will.
David: Yep.
Seth: Then as soon as you do that, you're outside of God's family-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and outside of his covenant, and you're no longer a part of the family tree.
David: That's like when J- when God would say, like, at Sinai, like, "I will be your God. You will be my people if you do all that I command you to do."
Seth: Right.
David: Obedience to God's will-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is part of being grafted into his family.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, I get that.
Seth: And so Jesus is picking up on the Old Testament saying, "If you do the will, uh, do, do God's will, you are my brother, and you're my sister, and my mother."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like, there's a, um-
David: You're in my family
Seth: ... you're in my family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there's the covenantal connection that we're already talking about, and then there's just the deep, emotive-
David: Mm
Seth: ... intimate connections that it has. Jesus, when we-
David: Mm
Seth: ... do his will, considers us to be his intimate mother, his intimate brother, and his intimate sister, and his intimate father. He doesn't mention that here, but-
David: Right, so much so that he invites us to come inside and eat with him, and be in his home, and-
Seth: Even at the expense of his earthly mother.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Like, that's kind of like-
David: That's very intimate
Seth: ... and that's, and I was like, that's pretty, a pr- pretty profound statement by Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we would be that close to him, and that we w- he would consider us that way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just by doing this.
David: I don't... Yeah, I, when I think about Jesus, and, and, and let me... Big caveat.
Seth: Yes.
David: I'm not saying Jesus is not meant to be falling on your knees in front of him, and worshiping him, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... He is Lord, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? He is Lord.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Capital L, capital O, capital R, capital D, LORD.
Seth: But just because we're focusing on him as our brother-
David: Right
Seth: ... doesn't mean we also-
David: Okay. So, yes
Seth: ... don't see him as Lord, yes.
David: So I wanna name that as a caveat, but I'm just like, man, I love, I, I, I think there's a separation I feel between me and Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because I often only think of him as Lord and Savior. I think of him as God, right, who, who is sealed above all else, and that's his, like, lofty version of him in my head, right? The, the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... transcendental version, right?
Seth: Right.
David: But then there's also-
Seth: Transcendent
David: ... transcendent version, but then there's also the, the near version, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, where he's my savior. He came to Earth and lived the life I should have lived-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and died the death that I should have died, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, that's him as my savior, but that's as close as he gets to me.You know? Where it's like he's a Lord above and Savior below.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he's also saying, "And I'm the brother who moves in."
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, "David, I love you. Like, you're my brother. Come here."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "You're my brother. Sit with me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I shared a womb with you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, c- no.
Seth: Right? [laughs]
David: That's like [laughs] like-
Seth: Like, yeah
David: ... like, that's functionally what Jesus is saying
Seth: ... the, the womb of the Spirit-
David: The-
Seth: ... by which we have been reborn-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as Jesus said to Nicodemus.
David: Yeah. We're ... [sighs] [laughs]
Seth: So l- then let's jump to Hebrews from here. Hebrews 2 chapter 12. Uh-
David: Yeah. Let me pull myself together and get there.
Seth: Hebrews chapter 2, uh, verse 11.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, maybe we should start at verse 10, actually.
David: Okay.
Seth: 'Cause remember, like, Jesus is, is told us we share a womb with him when we do his will. For it was-
David: Hold up. Before you read this-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... speaking of the transcendent and then the near-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... can I just talk about what came first in Hebrews right before this?
Seth: Please do.
David: Like, Hebrews chapter 1 is all about how Jesus is God who is above all things, the heir of all things, the radiance of God's glory, the exact imprint of God's nature, who's above every single angel and power in the whole universe. He is above all. Okay. But also-
Seth: And it's fitting-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... verse 10, "That he for whom by whom and through whom all things exist-
David: Exist
Seth: ... in bringing many sons of glory, should make the founder in their salvation perfect through suffering.
David: Mm.
Seth: For he sanctifies, and those who are sanctified all have one source." Now, this is a kind of a confusing verse.
David: Mm.
Seth: But what I believe he's, he's saying is that Jesus, by his own suffering, makes us his brothers.
David: Right. He's, yeah, bringing-
Seth: He makes us perfect.
David: Yeah, he says, "Bringing many sons-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to glory."
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. The glory, uh, like, he's talking about, like, he was, he is the radiance of God's glory.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Is the, is the way that the Hebrews author has been talking about glory. And so he's giving the sons of God the glory of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... through his suffering-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is the foundation of our salvation.
Seth: And that's why verse, uh, 11, he's not ashamed to call us brothers.
David: Man, I mean, I get that.
Seth: [laughs]
David: 'Cause it's like, I think, like, I get the idea of being ashamed to own one of your siblings. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah. That, that they don't, uh... We don't, we don't talk about, we don't talk about my sister. [laughs]
David: Um, where it's just like, I can get that idea in my head.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And, uh, like, that's interesting. And it's like, if, if we as humans-
Seth: Mm
David: ... can be ashamed of our earthly siblings, and it's like, "Is that your brother?"
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like, "Uh, no, I don't know who the hell you're talking about."
Seth: "I don't, I don't know who that is."
David: It's like, "Yeah, he is, but, like, we're not close." You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... things that people do. Or like, "Yeah, that's my brother, but I'm nothing like him." You know?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, we do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're-
Seth: We define ourselves against our siblings
David: ... we're, we're ashamed of our own siblings.
Seth: Right.
David: But Jesus, who has every right to be ashamed of us since he's the glory of God and we are not, [laughs] he has every right to be ashamed, be like, "Yeah, all right, you're my brother."
Seth: Right.
David: But he's not ashamed to call us brothers.
Seth: And-
David: Oh, and sorry, I just did a, a-
Seth: No
David: ... a word study-
Seth: Okay
David: ... on, on, um, this word, ashamed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the Bible, in the New Testament Greek. And it's about, um, it's about, um, class.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? So it's like, to be ashamed is to, um, move from one grade of class to a lower grade of class.
Seth: Okay.
David: To go, you know, from prince to slave.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, Jesus is saying that he is, he does not experience a degrading in his own class-
Seth: Mm
David: ... by calling us brothers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's how powerful his glory is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is that when he calls us brothers, he, his station is not, is, does not go down.
Seth: Mm.
David: Our station goes up.
Seth: Interesting.
David: Anyway.
Seth: Interesting.
David: Which is interesting, yeah.
Seth: Well, think about then, like, the way in which we so quickly push off our siblings when they make us feel ashamed or they threaten our class.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, verse 14, "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood," so meaning all humans, children, have flesh and blood, "Jesus himself likewise partook of the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery."
David: Mm.
Seth: So think about, well, one, think about Edom, how Edom sold their brothers into slavery, so we've got th- that theme.
David: Right.
Seth: You also have the idea of the fear of death being a type of slavery. We're enslaved and fearful of death. And then we have the personification of death in the accuser, the one who accu- the devil, the one who accuses us, us of doing wrong. And then you have a brother-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who chooses to identify with the shamefulness of his, his shameful siblings-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in order to undo all those things. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... Edom's response to the shamefulness of Israel was to sell them into slavery and pick over the remains.
David: Right.
Seth: Our response to the brothers and sisters we're estranged from is to push them to the side. Jesus's response, even though he's a class above, is to go a class below-
David: Right
Seth: ... to take on flesh and blood so that he, by dying, can free us from death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the one that has the power of death and the one that enslaved us to the fear of death.
David: Mm.
Seth: Edom is destroyed when our gooder, gooder [laughs]
David: Gooder
Seth: ... our gooder, our better big brother, Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... comes and does what Edom never did.
David: It's really interesting. Uh, this is sub- this is subverting the brotherhood of Jesus for me, or flipping it on its head.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, and it, and then it, and then it gets flipped back. But it's like I've only ever thought of Jesus as my brother, as you're my big spiritual brother who makes me a co-heir and elevates me to your station because now I'm a son of God, and, um, like-You're my big heavenly brother.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Here he's saying that he's our brother because he took on flesh and blood.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's our brother bec- not, not first because he made us like him, but because he became like us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I'm your brother because I was born of a woman just like you were."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Not because you've been born of spirit first."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'm, I'm your brother because I look like you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And I breathe air like you breathe, and I feel pain like you feel. I'm literally, like, in the brotherhood of humanity now, and I did that so that I could save you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because... And I, and I, and I think about Edom and Jacob, and I'm like, imagine if Edom would've taken on that tack. Like, imagine if-
Seth: Right
David: ... Edom would've been like, "We'll fight with you, Israel." Maybe they would've pushed back the Babylonians.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Maybe they would've been saved if their brother would've come to their defense and identified with them instead of lording it above them. But instead of lording it above us as his brothers, Jesus comes in to fight the fight with us and takes on flesh and blood, says, "I am your brother. Look at me, skin, bone, nerves. I'm a sh- I'm a homo sapien. I'm your brother, and now I, I... Now that allows me and puts me in the position to die for you, because I am you." Like-
Seth: Mm.
David: And then it flips on its head, and he becomes our heavenly big brother and elevates our station to his.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, that's a-
Seth: It's really good.
David: Thanks, Hebrews.
Seth: Hebrew... I mean, then he goes on and even connects it to the family of Abraham. He says, "For surely it is not angels that he helps-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but the offspring of Abraham."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which Hebrews and Paul will go on to develop as anyone who has faith in the Lord are true brothers and members of the family of Abraham.
David: Right.
Seth: That's why he's made us to be like his f- that's why he is made... That's therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every-
David: Right
Seth: ... respect.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So which goes back to your point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not that Jesus, our big brother, like condescendingly in a good sense-
David: Right
Seth: ... bringing us up-
David: Picking us up
Seth: ... picking us up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and being. But no, no, he becomes lowly like we are so that he can...
David: Yeah, he had to be m- made like us in every respect in order to die for us. What gives Jesus the right to die for our sins? He's our brother.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like us in every way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yet did not sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay, that's cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Love that.
Seth: It's pretty cool. [laughs]
David: Love that. Uh, what else, what other verses are we meditating on?
Seth: I, I would probably jump to Hebrew, uh, not Hebrews, Romans 8-
David: Romans
Seth: ... from here.
David: Oh, boy.
Seth: So, um, Romans 8 is just a great passage of scripture anyway, but-
David: It's the Billboard Top 100 of the Bible.
Seth: [laughs] But if you just think about everything that we just said there, "So then, brothers-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we are debtors, not according to the flesh, to live according to flesh."
David: Before we get into the deep waters of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Hebrews 8, I'm just... I'm like, right there, "So then, brothers," that's Paul-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a human-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not Jesus, talking to other humans-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that are in Christ together. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... not only is Jesus our brother-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we now have brothers in the Church-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, and sisters in the Church. And then, like, as we talk about this, like, our shared humanity and how in Christ we are saved because he, he was made like us in every respect, but then he's also elevated as a Son of God, and we're sons of God, which makes us brothers, I'm like, that makes calling some, some other Christian, like, my brother-
Seth: Mm
David: ... so much more weighty. And it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and do I see my Christian brothers as those who I would let in my house ahead of my earthly family like Jesus did?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or I'm like, who are, who's my mother and who's my brother? Like, Seth is my brother. Like-
Seth: Mm. Yeah, or even to do what Jesus did is ti- to go a class below-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order to accept them into your home.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, we all have... I think classism exists, I'm sure everywhere, and I know that it's not the full extent-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the word ashamed. But, like, there's alw- there's always people that we don't want to associate with.
David: Right.
Seth: But if they have faith in Christ, they are our brothers-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we should approach them as Jesus approached us.
David: Without shame.
Seth: Without shame. Like, that's a, that's a powerful view.
David: Anyway, go ahead.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Romans 8.
Seth: "So then, brothers, we are debtors, not according to flesh, to live according to flesh." Like, we're brothers. We're bought by this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... humble s- brother who comes down, beco- takes on our sin, defeats the devil for us. That's how we've been saved.
David: Right.
Seth: So don't act like a fleshly brother and just cast off the siblings that sh- shame you. Don't act like you're in the flesh anymore. "If you live according to flesh, you'll die. But if l- but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." This is kind of continuing the thing he started off before.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But this is where it gets, uh, to the brotherhood stuff. "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
David: Mm.
Seth: "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear." So this is what the author of Hebrews was talking about too.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, slavery to death, slavery to the fear of death. "You've been made sons of God. You did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the spirit of adoption as sons by whom we cry Abba Father."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: So we've, we've received a spirit of adoption.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Li- This is what we've talked about.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You are born of flesh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but then you're adopted when you're born of spirit.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: When you place your trust in Jesus, you share a spiritual womb-
David: Womb
Seth: ... with Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: He becomes your spiritual brother, and you are born a- and adopted simultaneously in that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... moment into his new family.
David: Right. And that gives us the r- I know we're not talking about fatherhood here.
Seth: Right.
David: But I never get to talk about this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, one ti- like, uh, I, I went to Israel back in, I think, 2016, and we had just gotten off the plane in Tel Aviv, and we're, like, making our, the, the, the, like, the bus ride into Galilee, uh, from Tel Aviv. And we stop off, like, halfway at some, like, little falafel place on the side of the road. And we go in, we order a falafel. We're sitting there waiting for our food, and this little boy runs up to his dad and is, like, running to him. He's probably, like, four. Like, his, wraps his arm around him, and all the way he's running, he's going, "Abba, Abba, Abba," and then grabs him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I was like, "I'm done."
Seth: [laughs]
David: I just like start crying.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And I'm like, "That's the way-
Seth: That's really sweet
David: ... that being Jesus's brother allows us to approach Father God."Is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Abba, Daddy. Like, I'm still really uncomfortable even with, like, thinking about my relationship with God that way.
Seth: Well, think about what the spirit of adoption, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... physically means, like physically, emotionally-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... psychologically means in that moment. Verse 16, "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."
David: Mm.
Seth: There's a part of us that doesn't believe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the th- the virtue, that's the how God relates to us.
David: Yeah. Why would the Spirit-
Seth: Like-
David: ... need to-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... remind you and bear witness to your soul that you actually are God's child if you believed it already?
Seth: Right.
David: It's, like, of course, there's a part of me that's like, "There's no way I'm qualified to call the God of the universe Dad."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And Jesus, my Lord and Savior, who created all things, and to whom all things have their end-
Seth: He's my big brother
David: ... hey, hey, big brother.
Seth: [laughs]
David: There's no way.
Seth: There's no way.
David: No, of course, there is, and the Holy Spirit is bearing witness, screaming to your soul that it's true.
Seth: We are children of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then, and the Holy Spirit exists to remind us that if we are children, then we are heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.
David: Right. Of and with are really important prepositions there. We are heirs of God. W- like, where... Like, whose fortunes are we inheriting? God's fortunes. He's the dad.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So his, his fortune goes to his sons. So we're heirs of God, and then co-heirs or fellow heirs with Christ. We share-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that inheritance from God with Jesus.
Seth: Right. And just like all other inheritances, when do you get your inheritance?
David: When your dad dies?
Seth: When, when there's a death in the family.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Right? Like, that's all, that's all it means.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, another way, it's, it's, like, Jesus dies.
David: Right.
Seth: So the inherit... God dies.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, it's like, it's like Jesus dies, yes-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but God dies.
David: Right, yes.
Seth: In a sense-
David: God the Son dies
Seth: ... God the Son dies.
David: Yes.
Seth: Therefore, the inheritance must be given out.
David: Right. The firstborn dies. You know, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's what's happening here.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like, uh, whereas Esau gave up and sold and discredited and devalued his birthright so that Jacob could have it, Jesus lays it down-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and shares it with us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? It's like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's the difference. Like, he's a better big brother than Esau.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. He-
David: It's cool.
Seth: Uh, yeah, it's super cool. And so, like, and so, and so what's the inheritance? All things, the universe.
David: Mm.
Seth: Everything.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We are heirs of the infinity of God.
David: Yeah. It's a, he says, "So that we may be glorified with him." Remember in, when we were in Hebrews, we were like, Jesus, Jesus is the glory of God, the exact imprint of his nature. So inheriting that, what does that mean? It means we will be glorified with him. And, like, Jesus talks about that in John. Uh, 1 John s- uh, in 1 John 3:2 says, "When we see him, we will be made like him." Like, we will become like Jesus. We, like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, the spiritual DNA that we've been reborn into now as brothers of Jesus will become, like, supernatural, physical DNA [laughs] when we are glorified and robed with the inheritance of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We'll look like Jesus' brother.
Seth: The Holy Spirit's job is to remind us that we are adopted into God's family, and that we are sons of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... d- and daughters of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that Jesus is our brother. The Holy Spirit also exists to remind us that we will inherit along with Jesus the entire world and all the goodness and infinity of God. And then this is interesting. You read the last of it, "But provided we suffer with him-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order that we may also be glorified with him."
David: Mm.
Seth: This goes back to Hebrews, suffering and glory, suffering and sanctification were tied super closely together then a- as well.
David: Right.
Seth: When we su- when Christ suffers like us, he adopts us into his family.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then when we suffer like Christ-
David: We're adopted into his family
Seth: ... we're adopted into his family.
David: Right. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and then even-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, um, when we suffer, the Holy Spirit makes these things seem more true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that's like, like, there's a contextual thing here, provided we suffer.
David: Mm.
Seth: When... Like, when do we most know that we're God's sons? When will we most know that Jesus is our brother?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I think in the moments that we suffer.
David: Right.
Seth: So there's a message of grace here, too, for, like, those who are suffering under the estrangement they have from their brother-
David: Mm
Seth: ... whether their brother or sister's incredibly manipulative or, [laughs] you know, like-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... whatever. Like, in those moments of suffering, not only will we be made more like God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and more like Jesus, but we'll also be reminded that we are more like God and more like Jesus than we, we thought was possible.
David: Yeah. That's really good. Man, okay.
Seth: Yeah, Jesus is our brother.
David: Jesus is our brother.
Seth: Um-
David: That was really cool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I really like that. Anything else?
Seth: I don't think I have anything else. Um, no.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think that's Jesus is our brother.
David: There we go. Well, that's, I think, our last reflection on Obadiah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, yeah, I really enjoyed that. Um, so where, where, w- where are we going? Uh, Amos after this, right?
Seth: Amos is next, yeah.
David: Okay, awesome. Well, guys, thank you for, uh, taking a- another trip through, kind of, the Book of Obadiah with us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and reflecting on its major theme. Um, we will see you next week in the Book of Amos.
Seth: See you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
