Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Today we are in Obadiah. Seth, how you feeling about that?
Seth: I'm fine.
David: You're fine [laughs].
Seth: I'm fine.
Seth: Well, what's great about Obadiah, it's the shortest book in the Old Testament.
David: Yes.
Seth: The... 21 verses.
David: 21 verses. You, you don't even have to say chapter one, verse.
Seth: You, you don't.
David: Whatever.
Seth: Yeah. It's, it's weird. I... Somebody... I c- I was caught off guard by that the other day.
David: It's like, "Obadiah 18," and you're like, "18?"
Seth: And that's the whole verse.
David: That's just 'cause it's a verse.
Seth: That's amazing.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, so yeah. It's a really short book of the Bible. This is probably the only podcast episode we do on it, unless we just get real lost.
David: Re- or real focused.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Who knows? But, uh, why should we care about the book of O- Obadiah? It's not a book of the Bible I've really spent any time in.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is the first time I've, I've ever studied it. Why should I want to study it?
David: Yeah. So the high point of the book of Obadiah is verse 15, and it says, "For the day of the Lord is near upon all nations." So this is an indictment against these prideful nations that have set themselves up against Israel. And if I was to answer your question of like why should we care about Obadiah, well apparently, there's a day of the Lord coming against the nations of the world, and we need to know, like [laughs]
Seth: Mm.
David: ... how to survive that day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like that it's coming, who's involved in it, why they're falling, and what hope we have-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... if we are part of these prideful nations that are described here.
Seth: Yeah. And I think as we talk about Jesus, too, as the day of the Lord comes against Edom, we're supposed to see the day of the Lord that's coming against, um, I think Edom and Adam are a really similar [laughs] sounding word-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I think in English-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but also in Hebrew. So as the day of... As God confronts the evil of Edom, he's also gonna confront the evil within the mankind-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the sons and daughters of Adam.
David: Right. But you have, you have jumped the gun because-
Seth: I have
David: ... no one knows who Edom is or what Edom is.
Seth: Oh, I have jumped the gun.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Edom.
David: So they're like, "Edom, cool."
Seth: Edom.
David: "I care so much."
Seth: Wow.
David: No, but, uh, you need to know.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, so Obadiah is a really unique book, um, in the whole Bible, and especially in the minor prophets, because it's talking about the long-term feud that has been brewing between two nations, Israel and Edom, which-
Seth: They're also known by two other names.
David: Yes, which goes all the way back to Genesis and two brothers who are...
Seth: Jacob and Esau.
David: Yes.
Seth: And this is Jacob and Esau, Jacob 25. Jacob 25 [laughs].
David: Jacob 25.
Seth: [laughs] Genesis 25.
David: Is that apocryphal literature?
Seth: [laughs] It's a... Yeah. It's the, the book, the, the Genesis-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that Seth likes to read. Uh, this is 25:30. It says, "He said to Jacob, 'Quick, let me have some of that red stew.'" This is Esau talking.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "I'm famished." And that's also why it's called Edom. [laughs] And Edom just means red.
David: Red.
Seth: So he wanted... He saw some red stew and wanted it.
David: So they named him after it.
Seth: And so, and then a whole nation was named after-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... their forefather's love of the color red. [laughs]
David: It's also kind of sad that their whole nation was named after-
Seth: A pot of stew
David: ... a pot of stew that ended up losing them the birthright that Esau had. Because the story here is really important. It's that Jacob, um, was the second born. They were twins. Jacob and Esau were twins, but Jacob came out second. And, um, in Israelite culture in that time, they would have always given the birthright, the right of inheritance to the father's fortune, to the first born, who was Esau.
Seth: Does that mean the second born did not get anything?
David: No, they would get a lesser portion.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So normally, I would assume, I haven't had to dole out the, my inheritance to my children, but it was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 35, 33, 33, 33.
David: Right, even.
Seth: Even. That's the way I would assume you would do it.
David: No. Yeah, they're gonna get the m- And, and honestly, uh, it depends on the family, and it also depends on the epoch of the Bible we're talking about. So like ancient Near Eastern times of Genesis are-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... different than maybe the situation surrounding the prodigal son in the New Testament.
Seth: Okay.
David: But, um, even sometimes it would be the birthright goes to the son, the first born-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and then it's the job of the second born to go find a job, get a new land, start a new inheritance-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for their kids.
Seth: So the first born takes over the father's estate.
David: That's right.
Seth: The second born is expected to begin a new estate and-
David: Mm-hmm, or live off of the estate of his older brother.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah. And so it's a big deal. I mean, the first born, it was a huge deal. We just don't have a lot of modern a-
Seth: Mm
David: ... modern analogs for that.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And so, uh, that's his birthright. It's his, it's his given birthright-
Seth: Right
David: ... to take over the family line, th- th- the Esau's.
Seth: The closest, the closest thing we have is like a family business.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: And the f- the first born is the, gonna be the new CEO.
David: That's right.
Seth: And then all of a sudden, the second born gets it? What?
David: Right.
Seth: That's-
David: And what's crazy is in the story is Esau just sells his birthright to Jacob, his younger brother, because he's on the edge of starvation, uh, after being out working all day, and he sells his birthright for a bowl of stew.
Seth: Red stew.
David: Red stew.
Seth: Edom stew.
David: Edom stew.
Seth: [laughs] Eat him up.
David: Uh, yeah. And then, and then the story progresses again. Jacob had tricked his brother out of his birthright with the stew.
Seth: Mm.
David: And now Jacob, which kind of also means tricker, tricker, you know-
Seth: Yeah, trickster
David: ... trickster, uh, then tricks his blind dad, Isaac, out of the, his blessing. So it was the father's right to bless his first born son. It was the first born son right to receive the blessing of his father. So he, he then, you know, famously dresses up like Esau by putting a bunch of hair on-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... going in, serving his dad his favorite meal, and then he gets Isaac to bless him, the younger brother, instead of Esau, the older brother, there- thereby securing the, uh, coup attempt that the stew, you know-
Seth: Yes, 'cause-
David: ... foreshadowed.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: Yeah. And so what happened then was-Esau gets furious with his little brother Jacob and vows to kill him. And this guy is the, the hardcore, like, he, he's a man, you know?
Seth: Oh, Esau.
David: Esau is a man.
Seth: He's the, he's the hunter.
David: He's the hunter.
Seth: He's the one going out. He's g- he got so much hair on his arm, his brother has to strap a hide-
David: Yeah, exactly
Seth: ... to his skin. [laughs]
David: And so Jacob, at his mom's advice, runs away, and, uh, Esau is, like, seeking to kill him. Um, now there's some reconciliation that happens at the end of this story in, in Genesis where, you know, they kind of each have done okay for themselves, and they end up kinda patching things up.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But as, you know, the, the cards have been dealt, Jacob takes over his father's estate in Canaan-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, which was promised to him by his, uh, by his god, Yahweh.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yahweh said that he would give, um, Abraham, and then Abraham's son Isaac, and then Isaac's son Jacob this land of Canaan. Uh, and so Esau, having worked himself out of that covenant, that promise, that land allotment, he goes and settles in a new land, and it's called Edom. Red.
Seth: Red.
David: Land of, land of-
Seth: Yeah. It's just-
David: It's like Oklahoma.
Seth: Well, it's, oh, the red-
David: Our, our-
Seth: ... the Red River
David: ... we have red... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And we, we have red dirt here in Oklahoma.
Seth: It's crazy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was telling Eric about that, how it's just, like, if you look satellite image over Oklahoma-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, it's red.
David: It's red.
Seth: It, it's weird.
David: We have this red clay dirt. It's really strange. And so, uh, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So basically we live in Edom.
Seth: We live in Edom.
David: So-
Seth: Makes sense
David: ... yeah, so Edom, just so you can kinda get it in your head, you know, you have Israel, and, uh, to Israel's east border is the Jordan River, and over there as well i- on, like, the southeast side is the Dead Sea.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's, like, where... I've been there, and you can, like, just lay in it and float-
Seth: It's crazy
David: ... and the salt holds you up.
Seth: I've done the same thing.
David: It's super cool.
Seth: I also got salt in my eyes.
David: Yeah, you're not supposed to do that.
Seth: And then I had to stare at the sun to get it out.
David: What? What?
Seth: That, that was what everybody said to do. Like, "Just look at the... Open your eyes towards the sun, and it'll evaporate the water." And I was, like, 13 at the time, and I couldn't do it 'cause the sun was also blinding me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It was, it was a [laughs] it was a terrible... I don't, I do not enjoy the memories that I have of the Dead Sea. [laughs]
David: Oh, I had a very good time.
Seth: [laughs] Uh, anyway.
David: Anyway. Uh, and so Edom is on the other side of the Dead Sea, so kind of like east of Israel and a little bit south.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's Edom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And throughout Israel's history, and, and you, you should know Jacob's name was changed to Israel, just as Esau's name was changed to Edom.
Seth: Yeah, and they end up becoming the, those are the nations.
David: They're nations.
Seth: Those are the nations.
David: Those are the nations, yeah.
Seth: Nations of Edom, the fore- whose forefathers Esau.
David: Right.
Seth: The nation of Israel, whose fourth father was Jacob.
David: Yes. And their sibling rivalry just continues throughout the decades and the generations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Over and over again, they continue to fight and wage war-
Seth: I think the-
David: ... against each other
Seth: ... the next time you hear about is the Book of Numbers in-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... uh, Numbers 20
David: ... uh, with Balaam.
Seth: Um, before that-
David: Oh, oh, oh, they try to enter the land.
Seth: They try to enter the-
David: That's right
Seth: ... they try to enter into, to the land of Edom and walk around part of the wilderness.
David: Yeah, they're trying to sh- get a shortcut and-
Seth: S-
David: ... also safe passage.
Seth: Right. And then-
David: So, like, oh, brother Edom's place.
Seth: Right. But Edom refuses to grant them passage.
David: Yeah, and they even, like, offered, like, "If we eat anything, we'll pay for it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "We won't touch any of your water or your grapes." And they're like, "No, stay out, or we'll come kill you."
Seth: Yep.
David: So, like, not a, a, a warm welcome.
Seth: And I... When... And I don't know when precisely Obadiah was written.
David: So we'll get there.
Seth: Be- because there's part of the story where Edom's is complicit in, like, the Babylonian captivity.
David: Yeah, we'll get there.
Seth: Okay.
David: We'll get there.
Seth: All right.
David: So, uh, so yeah, then in Numbers, then Balaam, after they've been denied passage, Balaam then prophesies that Israel will conquer Edom.
Seth: Mm.
David: So it's like, oh, okay, we're getting some foreshadowing there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of that, one, this battle will continue. They're not just gonna be amicable neighbors-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... apparently. [laughs]
Seth: Sibling rivalry will continue through the ages.
David: Yes. Uh, and then, um, like, Saul in Kings or in, in Samuel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... goes and attacks him.
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, David conquers them. Uh, Solomon puts them to forced labor to build ships. Uh, and then throughout the 2 Kings narrative of, of all the different kings and everything, um, Edom has a couple rebellions, and they rebel against Israel, and they end up shaking off Israel's king as ruler over them. Um, and that takes us basically all the way through the end of Israel's reign. Um-
Seth: And all that's a confirmation of what, um, um, their father blessed Esau-
David: Oh
Seth: ... with, right?
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: So whenever they, he, uh, he said this, "The older... Two nations are in your womb, Rebekah."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And two peoples from within you shall be divided. The one shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger," which is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in all of history, that's the way it's been ending up, whether by slavery or otherwise. Edom has been serving-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Israel.
David: That's right, until toward the end, the, like, the sunset period of Israel's first dynasty, which is at the end of 2 Kings, uh, right after, like, the Assyrian revolution took over the Northern Kingdom, and then the incoming threat of the Babylonians from the north were gonna take over Israel's southern kingdom, where Jerusalem and the temple, um, are. All that weakened infrastructure in Israel ended up making it to where they couldn't hold as tight of a grip on their neighbors.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: And that included Edom.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so Edom, through a rebellion, was able to shake off, in the reign of Joash, Israel's kingdom over them. And so Edom became a self-
Seth: An independent
David: ... an independent nation, but really they were a vassal to Babylon.
Seth: Okay.
David: And they were, before that, they were vas- a vassal to Assyria. And so they've always been-
Seth: The s- like, the-
David: ... on the side of Israel's enemies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're like, "Ooh, here comes these big guys with big sticks. Let's join their gang-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and go beat up our y- younger brother." [laughs]
Seth: Is that, is that what happened? They joined in the fighting?
David: They joined in, yep. And so-
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I mean, that's pretty... I mean, that's a pretty, like, b- I mean, so Babylon and Assyria are the big bad guys-
David: Yes
Seth: ... near the end of the Bible's history.
David: Yep.
Seth: And to have Edom join them, Esau's descendants join them, is a r-Is an indictment against them.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It proves the type of character of the leaders of this nation.
David: Totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It would be like if, if Luke and Leia Skywalker had a falling out, and Leia went and joined the Empire, you know? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah. Sh-
David: It's not-
Seth: Yes.
David: It's not cool.
Seth: Right.
David: It's not cool. And so, um, so then, as you were saying, we, we don't know based on... The, the, like the, the Book of Obadiah doesn't tell us when it's written.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So we have to go off of internal cues.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it seems like, uh, Israel has been ransacked in a really massive way, so much so that Edom could just come in and, like, pick out the leftovers that were, that were just strewn about by the-
Seth: Right
David: ... Babylonians. And so-
Seth: And it seems that they had a hand in making Israel as desolated as it was.
David: That's right. That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: And we don't ha- None of the other rebellions of, um, of Edom-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that are, we do have chronicled-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... um, match that.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, and so it seems like this is right after Israel fell or during the siege of Israel by the Babylonians.
Seth: Okay.
David: So this is, like, maybe around the time of Jeremiah, maybe a little after, something like that. And so you have a destroyed Israel who was judged by God for their sin. Their temple's been destroyed. Their people are dispossessed. All this kind of terrible things, like all the goods of the temple are being taken out, uh, into Nebuchadnezzar's palace in Babel- in Babylon, and you have Edom, not only were they fighting for the empire, you know, uh, now they are like vultures coming in and picking over the land and, like, like, they're like vulturizing their-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... younger brother's corpse. It's disgusting.
Seth: Got it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So whenever you come to Obadiah in your weekly reading, you're gonna see-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... you're gonna see this. "Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom." And the reason we spent so much time talking about Edom, Jacob, Esau, all the way back in Genesis, is if you don't understand at least the sibling rivalry that is recorded and maybe have some category for the Babylonian invasion and Edom's role in, uh, oppressing Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you're not gonna understand why we need the book of Obadiah at all.
David: Right.
Seth: The reason we need the book of Obadiah is because there's been sibling rivalry, and it's led to the destitution, the devastation of Israel, and the younger brother is harming the older brother.
David: Uh, the, the older brother's harming the younger brother.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: The older brother's harming the younger brother.
David: And to put a really fine theological point on that, I think this is really important, God, you quoted it, God said that the y- older would serve the younger.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The younger brother was gonna be the ruler. Jacob was going to be the ruler, and yet it seems like God's a liar.
Seth: So at this point in his- so Go- it's, has been true throughout history-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that Edom has served Israel.
David: That's right.
Seth: But all of a sudden, things have been reversed.
David: That's right.
Seth: And God's promise back in Genesis 25-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... seems to be no longer coming true.
David: That's right. And worse still, if that covenant is broken, if Jacob is no longer in the blessing that, the birthright that he received from his father Isaac-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... well, Isaac received the same blessing from his father Abraham, and what's that blessing that Abraham received? It's the covenant of God to-
Seth: That all the world will be blessed
David: ... through Israel, through Abraham's descendants. So the whole hope and the whole, like, salvation project of God is tied up in the nation of Israel, and if Edom is winning out over Israel, then it seems like the chosen line of God has been destroyed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Has been completely destroyed, and that, very importantly, takes us all the way back to Genesis 3. Because in Genesis 3, we're introduced to this line, and it's very important to understanding what's on the line in Obadiah because you have this line from Eve-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we're promised that after the fall, Eve would have a great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandson or something like that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would end up crushing the head of the serpent's seed. So both, you, you, you have two kingdoms. You'd have the, you had God's chosen kingdom birthed by Eve, and you'd have the, the kingdoms, the prideful nations of the world, birthed by the serpent, the spiritual power of the-
Seth: Right
David: ... serpent. They'd be evil, wicked, prideful kingdoms. But one day, Eve's descendant would crush the head of the serpent's descendant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that line, that promised line, was Abraham and then Isaac and then Jacob and then the nation of Israel, and now it seems like the snake is winning.
Seth: Right.
David: And that's bad news.
Seth: It look... Yeah. So the, the promise was, like, he, you will brew... He will bruise your heel-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and, but you will crush his head.
David: That's right.
Seth: So right now, it looks like it's the other way around.
David: Yes.
Seth: It looks like the seed of the serpent has-
David: Crushed the head of Israel
Seth: ... crushed the head of Israel, and they can't even mount a defense.
David: That's right.
Seth: So how could God take the defeat of a nation and turn it into a bruising?
David: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is like, how can they, like, Israel has been crushed.
David: Right. But-
Seth: The-
David: Yeah, but, like, is that just a bruised heel?
Seth: How could that be-
David: Their temple's destroyed. Their people are exiled
Seth: ... how could that just be a bruised heel?
David: How's that just a bruise?
Seth: Right.
David: It's death. How is that a bruise? Yeah. And so the people are confused, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Rightfully so. Their whole national heritage and identity as who they are, what God said, is being compromised, uh, by their neighbors. Maybe God chose wrong.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Maybe Esau was actually-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the promised son. Maybe we disrupted the national, the natural order of things by letting the younger rule, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, I've read the story in Genesis.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jacob wasn't the nicest guy, you know? [laughs] Like, maybe we got it wrong. Maybe we're on the wrong side of history here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, it's, it's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's really interesting, everything they might be thinking.
Seth: It is interesting, and then we add another. So we have history. So history.
David: Yes, history.
Seth: That's the history-
David: That's the history
Seth: ... behind the words Edom and Israel-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and covenant and Genesis, but you also have not just theological things in the line, the seed of the woman and the-
David: Mm
Seth: ... seed of the serpent battling it out behind the scenes, but you also just have the pride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of Edom. So that's one of the things that I picked up on as I was reading through Obadiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is that over and over again, the prophet Obadiah is calling out the pride of Edom. In verse three, "The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who lie in the clefts of the rock in your lofty dwelling." And the reason he says that is because Edom-All their big cities were in the mountains, right?
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There was this huge mountain range over there, and they would build their homes in the clefts of the rock and so, like, they literally lived inside of strongholds that were really hard to get to and so they felt unassailable.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's funny, it's like their sense of pride-
Seth: Is like is, was well-grounded [laughs]
David: ... it was well-grounded, and it was just like they had visual representations of how proud they were.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, "No one can touch us, not even Israel's God. We live in the mountains."
Seth: So you have these really proud people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... oppressing, oppressing the Israelites, and it seems like no one's holding them accountable.
David: That's right. Yeah, the, uh, the text also says they feel like eagles just soaring above everything and no one... you know, no- nothing can tether them to the earth.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we have all of that going on. We have a prideful nation that is taking advantage of a weaker nation, and we have centuries-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of animosity between brothers and a covenant on the line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's why Obadiah's in your Bibles.
David: [laughs] [gentle music] Okay, so we've got this prideful nation of Edom, which descended from Esau, and they, in their pride, blinded by their pride, are overlooking what they know the covenant between Israel and God is. They're overlooking it. They-
Seth: Do they care?
David: I, I don't know if they care, but it's part of their story, you know? And so that's the pro... I mean, if they care-
Seth: Right
David: ... if they don't care, yeah, they're, they're proud.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're like, "Those stories don't matter to us," you know?
Seth: Right, well, which was the whole thing that started the whole mess. Edom didn't care about his birthright.
David: That's right.
Seth: He doesn't care about the covenant.
David: He doesn't care about the covenant. He doesn't care about the blessing. And in fact, if I can just... I don't wanna make a big deal out of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... honestly, 'cause it's above my pay grade, but Obadiah, um, in a literary form-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, is a covenant lawsuit.
Seth: Okay.
David: So it's written like a covenant lawsuit. So, like, you might think of it like if you and I have a contract between us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and I infringe that contract, you might take me to court, and your attorney would write a statement of all the ways I infringed on the contract and what the penalties for that infringement should be based on the language-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that was in the contract. So that's what Obadiah is written as is-
Seth: Oh, so-
David: ... Esau, Edom, you have infringed on the covenant between God and his people by trying to conquer her, and you know that you were not chosen, so stop it. [laughs]
Seth: That's so fascinating. Like, a, a nation that has not, has excluded itself from God's covenant and said, "I don't actually want any part of God's covenant," who refuses to, to s- submit itself to God's, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... laws or whatever is still being held accountable-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by it, by virtue of being included in the family-
David: Right
Seth: ... of Jacob and Esau.
David: Right, which-
Seth: That's really interesting.
David: Yeah, which, let's bring this back up 'cause that's a really important thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you just said, um, which is w- the same thing is true with all humanity. You, you said, like, like Esau is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... involved in the covenant even though the covenant wasn't made with him by nature of being in the family. Well, like, we're all from Adam and Eve. We're all in the h- family of humanity, which is why the central play on words in Obadiah is the word Edom, which is insanely close to the word Adam-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which means mankind.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the whole point here is that Edom is a stand-in for all nations, which that's what the language changes to in verse 15.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It changes from Edom to nations, and if you were just reading this as a covenant lawsuit, you would be like, "On what grounds are you saying that since David broke our contract between-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Seth and I-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that our buddy Eric broke it, too?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: That doesn't make any sense.
Seth: Right.
David: And he's like, "It does if you remember that we're all a part of the family."
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, we all came from Adam and are therefore created by God and under his covenant laws.
Seth: Yeah. It would be more l- something closer to, like, bankruptcy and inheritance. We've-
David: Mm
Seth: ... mentioned this already. Like, if you inherit... Like, if your mom goes bankrupt, like, they can come to you as part of the family-
David: Yes, that's right
Seth: ... to help pay your mother's debts.
David: Yes.
Seth: And you would feel a sense of obligation as a son-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, and l- you would feel a s- an obligation as a son-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to fix that. There pr- there, I don't think there's a legal obligation in that sense.
David: I don't know.
Seth: But I think there... Maybe it's the other way around. Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm trying to think of a, a parallel, but yeah.
David: But, yeah, that's helpful, and it's like, but if, if my mom went bankrupt and so they came to me for half of it, it'd be really weird if they came after you for the other half.
Seth: Yes. Yes. [laughs]
David: You're like, "In what way am I inculcated-
Seth: In what- [laughs]
David: ... in this bankruptcy suit?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Exactly. And so the poi- point is like, no, no, even though you have abdicated yourself from the covenant, chosen to not be a part of it, you're s-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: ... you're still... y- you can't escape the covenants God makes with fami- the family of the earth.
David: Yes.
Seth: And you're part of the earth.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so when we th- start to think about ourselves, we should just have that in the back of our minds. God has made a covenant with humanity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Adam and Eve-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... humanity, and even if we abdicate ourselves from it, "No, no, I'm not part of that covenant. I reject God's laws."
David: "I'm gonna pridefully go live in the mountains." [laughs]
Seth: "I'm gonna go to live in the mountains and do my own thing," it's like, well, you could do that, but it doesn't really get you off the hook-
David: Right
Seth: ... because you're still culpable for your father's bankruptcy.
David: That's right.
Seth: You still need to t- to handle the situation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay, that's interesting.
David: Yeah. And so as we're... I mean, that might be helpful, a helpful bridge to meditate on then, a- a... 'cause, like, we're s- what we're saying is that we think what Obadiah's trying to do, one, he's obviously addressing an immediate historical situation, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Edom has been proud. They have broken the covenant. They have mistreated their younger brother. They have been pillaging them and teaming up with the empire. Bad, bad Edom. Here's what's gonna happen.
Seth: Justice needs to come.
David: Verse 10: "Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, uh, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever." Again, this goes back to the Garden of Eden in both lines.
Seth: Mm.
David: Both punishments come from the Garden of Eden. Shame was the first thing that happened to Adam and Eve whenever they ate the fruit and realized they were naked. They were covered in shame. Uh, and then the second thing was they were cut off from God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... when they were kicked out of the garden.
Seth: Yep.
David: So he's saying, "You will never be in the Garden of Eden."You'll never be part of Israel.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, this is extremely harsh language. Um, and so this is-
Seth: And I think cut off is also used in a lot of covenant ceremonies, right?
David: Correct.
Seth: You cut a covenant with somebody, you make a covenant with somebody.
David: Yeah, and then-
Seth: This is this word right here.
David: Yes, and then the, the punishment also for covenant breaking is that you would be cut off from the people. And so that's what's-
Seth: Right
David: ... happening here.
Seth: Right.
David: Is, is he's saying, like, "Way back when I started this covenant, the punishments that were detailed in it was if you do X, you will be cut off from the people of Israel."
Seth: Mm.
David: So that's what he's saying here. He's like, "You're not even a brother anymore."
Seth: Mm.
David: "You are cut off." You maybe, maybe they used to pride themselves in being distantly related to, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... to Israel. It's like, like a, maybe like a brother of, like, Michael Jordan would be like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Oh, I'm Michael Jordan's brother. Yeah, I'm always a little jealous-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... and kind of feel like my accomplishments get overlooked, and maybe that leads to some pride in my life. But, you know, I like to flex every now and then-
Seth: That's right
David: ... I'm Michael Jordan's brother."
Seth: Right.
David: You know, that's... I mean-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... maybe that's what's happening. You know, this is historical speculation, but, uh, but anyway.
Seth: It's my favorite kind of speculation.
David: Right. Historical speculation's the best kind of speculation.
Seth: Like the zombie fiction of, like, Abraham and zombies. It'd be like Pride, Prejudice and Zombies. [laughs]
David: Yes. [laughs] So funny.
Seth: It's, it's what we're doing.
David: This is-
Seth: It's the same thing
David: ... this is the literature we actually study.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and so w- the point I was making was, yes, Obadiah is addressing a real historical situation here, and Edom will come to ruins.
Seth: Mm.
David: And we actually have archeological evidence that soon after, I think it was the 7th century BC, soon after all this happened, um, there is just no more-
Seth: Mm
David: ... land of Seir, which is where Edom was.
Seth: Where it was.
David: It's just gone. And, like, there's no archeological evidence past this point of-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... Edom's destruction. So, like, it came true.
Seth: Man.
David: God desolated Edom, and the Edomites were no more. It's like, it happened. [laughs]
Seth: So we don't need the... So this has nothing to do with us. It's l- [laughs]
David: Right. Right, right.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So the point I'm making, then, is finally as I close that chapter, is going, uh... But then he turns it around and says, "Nations, Adam."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: This is verse-
David: "All man"
Seth: ... verse 15. So, "For the day of the Lord is near." And he just said, "The day of the Lord's coming against Edom-"
David: S-
Seth: "... specifically."
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, we expect more Edom. "For the day of the Lord is near Edom," but he says, "is near upon all the nations."
David: Right.
Seth: "As you have done it, it shall be done to you. Your deed shall return on your own head."
David: Yeah.
Seth: In the same way that Edom's pride curved back on itself, and they experienced the same thing they punished Israel with, all the nations will have the pride that they dispense curve back around on them.
David: That's right. And this is a continuation of the covenant lawsuit based on the lex talionis principle.
Seth: Which is eye-
David: Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
Seth: ... tooth. Yeah.
David: So the covenant said, "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The measure that you... you know r-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, you've, you've, y- harmed others will be harmed against you," basically. And so God is now extending that principle, called the lex talionis principle, to all nations. So he's going to hold all people accountable for the things that they've done.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know?
Seth: Right.
David: And so yeah. So w- just because we're not part of this story genealogically-
Seth: Right
David: ... even though some of you, some-
Seth: Even though the-
David: ... some listening might be, you know
Seth: ... the historical story has ended with the destruction of Edom.
David: That's right. Yep. E- even though that's true, the, the, the, the threat, the warning against or to the nations, uh-
Seth: Mm
David: ... extends to us today.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We are... I would definitely say that at least where we're sitting in our red dirt o- of Oklahoma-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we definitely live among a prideful nation.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Uh-
Seth: And the warning is like, God has already dealt with Edom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He will deal with you.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, if you are a prideful nation, if you're a part of a prideful nation, you can expect it to fall by the same pride it dispenses out.
David: Yeah. There's another more critical theory of when this book was written. I don't agree with it, but it is interesting to make this point-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is it was written after the destruction of Edom-
Seth: Okay
David: ... as a, as a, to, to explain why Edom was destroyed-
Seth: Mm
David: ... kind of post-hoc.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And to say Edom was destroyed because they broke God's covenant. Let's, let's say all that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now Israel's still in exile, so they wanna take the force-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of E- Edom's destruction-
Seth: Right
David: ... and turn it against all other nations that are currently-
Seth: Oppressing them
David: ... persecuting them and, yeah, and oppressing them. And so, like, watch out all nations. And I, I think it's the same point you're making is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... God proves that he holds nations accountable by the destruction of Edom.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Therefore, everyone else needs to watch out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay. Fascinating. So then we're under the same warning then.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right. All then... We're implicated in fan- the covenant God made with Adam.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And as a member of Adam, relative of Edom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, I am held responsible for the same cov- covenant responsibilities that Adam was.
David: Yes.
Seth: And my nation is as well. Can ... Uh, uh, can I talk about that, too?
David: Sure.
Seth: Because this is one thing, we talked about it, I think, in the Joel podcast-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how it's difficult to separate ourselves from Israel. And like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... I conflate myself with Israel too fast or, like, whatever. Can we talk about, like, the difference between, like, an individual and the nation here? I-
David: Uh, an individual in Israel or any nation?
Seth: Yeah, both.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because, like, Obadiah was clearly an Israelite.
David: Yes.
Seth: A faithful Israelite-
David: Right
Seth: ... among faithless Israelites, and he's condemned along with... He, his Israel's in tatters even though he's faithful.
David: Right.
Seth: And among the nations, there are some Yahweh fearers. Rahab was one of them.
David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, you have examples of them. And, like, I would like to think I'm a faithful American while at the same time saying that America's a proud nation and that I should expect God's judgment to come against it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: How does, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that work itself out?
David: Yeah.
Seth: How should I think about those categories as I read something like Obadiah?
David: Totally. Can a boat sink and one person survive with a life jacket?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay?
Seth: [laughs]
David: So like if the boat is a nation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and an individual was on the boat that sank, but he's still saved-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like that's just a helpful way to think about it. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yes, you had to go through the calamity of the boat sinking-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but you still got a life jacket.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: So, you know, like that's the like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the- there... God sees... I mean, it's, it's really interesting. Sometimes it seems like God talks out of both sides of His mouth, if I can say that reve- reverently-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause I don't mean that He's contradicting-
Seth: Right
David: ... Himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What I mean is that he says, like, He holds people accountable from generation to generation to generation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? But then He also says in the law that the, a son sh- will not be punished for his father's sins.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, it's both. Will I be actually held legally responsible before the eyes of God for the sins of my earthly father? No.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But in any way that my father, you know, failed, like we all do-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, do I, do I suffer some of the consequences of that? Yes, just like he suffered the consequences-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the way his father failed, and you suffer the consequences of the way your father failed.
Seth: Right.
David: Yet we're not held responsible for their sins.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They each have their own-
Seth: Right
David: ... relationship with God, and so I, I think, like America, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is America a holy nation? No.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I would use a more emphatic word, but we're a family show. No. Uh-
Seth: Are we? [laughs]
David: Yes, we're-
Seth: Have you listened to this podcast? [laughs]
David: Have you listened to those yet? [laughs] Um, no, we're not a holy, set apart-
Seth: We're not Israel
David: ... nation. We're not Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And even Israel wasn't true Israel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, we're told. Like, um, and so... But are there holy people in America? Yes. One day, might God, like, judge the nation of America like he judged Rome-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and judged Babylon and judged-
Seth: Right
David: ... Israel? Yes, maybe. I'm not a harbinger of doom. I'm not a prophet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't know. But I'm saying maybe. Will that mean that there's no Christians here? By no means.
Seth: Right.
David: Just like Obadiah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... was a faithful individual in the midst of a crumbling empire, um, I think that God holds people responsible for their sins and holds nations responsible for their sins.
Seth: Right.
David: But we don't need to conflate the two.
Seth: Yeah. And just because... And then I think the, the tricky part of that... So even if I'm experiencing the downfall of my nation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and all the serious economic, [laughs] like social-
David: Yes
Seth: ... financial consequences of that, that's not God punishing me in particular, but being complicit in the nation that I'm a member of.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that's what gets kinda confusing. It's like if God was gonna judge America... Uh, when s- put as starkly as it is here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Edom just gets razed to the ground.
David: Yes.
Seth: There was no good Edomites at all?
David: Right.
Seth: Well, it's like-
David: We don't know that.
Seth: Right. And so, and, uh, 'cause the point isn't every single person in that nation was just utterly destroyed.
David: No, it's what they were doing as a nation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, we understand America does things-
Seth: Nike-
David: ... and Americans-
Seth: ... uses sweatshops
David: ... do things. Right.
Seth: Does that mean everyone who buy, wears a Nike product? Is that, is that closer?
David: I don't know 'cause that, that's just a, that, then that's like the, at-
Seth: We'll keep it with nations
David: ... the, the morals of the [laughs] economic system.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] We'll keep it nations. Keep it with nations. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Um, yeah. It's like, I think, like America does things, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Depending on who the president is, he's the leader of the armed forces. He might declare a drone strike on a civilian population. That's evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Evil.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We can agree on that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's evil.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You should not drop drone strikes on c- civilians, but it happens.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Does that mean I did that? Absolutely not, as an American. I hate that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I can hold up my righteous anger and s- be seen as-
Seth: Right
David: ... righteous in the eyes of God, though I am part of a wicked nation in that moment-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who did wicked things and might be judged for that wicked thing, I'm still righteous inside of that wicked nation.
Seth: Yeah. But when the evil returns on its own head and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... then we get a drone st- strike-
David: On us
Seth: ... on us-
David: We are... Yeah. We get caught up in the punishment of the nations we live in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even though it might not be an individual attack.
Seth: Is this directed towards the leaders of Edom more so than the people?
David: It's... We, we actually don't know. It's, it's, there's not language here that is focused on the leaders. Um, when, uh, i- especially-
Seth: You would assume kind of like a prophet-
David: You guys assumed-
Seth: ... like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as that regal kind of role, a prophet-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like.
David: Uh, I think they've called Obadiah a temple prophet-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which they said is an untenable office that has no historical grounding. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: So...
Seth: Who said it then? [laughs]
David: Mikaminski brought it up.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But, like, anyway, uh, anyway, it's funny. Um, [laughs] it's really funny. Um, and so yeah, but it may be. It could be the leaders. Um, but, like, you know, the people who seem to be doing the worst things just seem to be, like, a rabble-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of vultures who are just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like coming down to Israel and, like, joining the fight. Maybe members of the armed forces or people coming in after it's been devastated and picking over, you know, the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the empty houses. Like, um, it doesn't really matter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who. What matters is, yes, as a nation, Edom has done wrong.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Through their leadership, through the, the, um, the, the majority of the population decided to rebel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it was maybe it was a people's rebellion.
Seth: Yeah. Or-
David: It doesn't matter
Seth: ... or, like, even just the, the classic line, like, evil succeeds when good men do nothing.
David: Right.
Seth: Or even just the sil- the general silence of people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who don't really wanna do anything with it. I think that's hel- Thanks for indulging me in this because-
David: No, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... I think, like, the idea of, like, corporate responsibility, especially as a nation, is just something pretty foreign to me.
David: Same.
Seth: And, um, I wanna, like, try to process that more, especially because so much of the language w- within scripture, and especially the minor prophets as we go through them-
David: Is national
Seth: ... w- is national. You have nat- like, a national identity is judged for something-... pocket of the nationality does, not all of them.
David: Right.
Seth: But everybody's implicated in that and I guess part of the reason Obadiah's written is that those that are faithful to Lord would rise up-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and they would call out and they would pray and they would do justice when their neighbors are doing injustice.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, that's part of the point, right?
David: Yes, absolutely.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, he doesn't have a call to repentance-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is kind of strange for a prophet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, 'cause he's just a harbinger of doom. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Well-
David: And hope. We're about to get to hope.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Don't worry. But yes, um, so that's all inter- uh, sh- let's stop here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Let's stop here for a second and let's talk about the gospel because we've, we've d- we've unpacked a ton and there's a lot of loose threads that I wanna pick up before we go to the end, which is just gonna open up-
Seth: Okay
David: ... more themes we haven't even touched yet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So we've got the, like the promised line, the Jacob and Esau rivalry. Where's that taking us? You know-
Seth: Right
David: ... is the threat of God's blessing for the world to, through Israel, uh, done away with in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Israel's destruction and Edom's involvement in it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, that question kind of lingers throughout the, uh, rest of the Old Testament-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and in the intertestamental period between-
Seth: There's-
David: ... Malachi and Matthew.
Seth: There's a promise at the end of Obadiah, which we'll get to, which seems to hint at that that promise will be restored.
David: Yes.
Seth: But historically-
David: They were still waiting. And, um, many different people tried to be th- that restorative arm, to be like, "I am a descendant of Jacob," or, "I am a descendant of King David," right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, let's rebuild Israel, let's re-kickstart God's covenant, uh, program, and let's be a blessing to all nations, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, famously, Zerubbabel in Ezra–Nehemiah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... was a descendant of David who rebuilt the temple, and nothing happened, you know? Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's kind of what we're talking about here. And then, like, there were, there were, like, think about the Maccabeans, you know, the Maccabean Rebellion.
Seth: I don't think about them often.
David: You don't think about them often?
Seth: I do now. [laughs]
David: Every, every Hanukkah you think about them.
Seth: Every Hanukkah. [laughs]
David: Um, you know, the Maccabeans, like, they were these amazing, faithful Jewish men-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who retook the temple, you know, after it had been-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, like, captured-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, held up in there for eight, eight nights, right?
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: And that's why there's, uh, eight-
Seth: Eight candles on the menorah
David: ... yeah, ei- eight candles on the menorah. And it's like, were they the restoration? No. And, like, I think all of them were these pointing forwards, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... these things that pointed forward to, um, someone who would put an end to evil, proud nations.
Seth: Sibling rivalry. [laughs]
David: Sib- sibling rivalry, who was a descendant of Jacob, uh, and who, who did so in a way that, like, would not involve them in the proud evil of the nations that they're there to judge, you know? And I was just like, Jesus is this descendant of Jacob, this descendant of David, right, like, who was so humble. Like, we don't often meditate on the humility of Jesus. Um-
Seth: I do.
David: I know. [laughs]
Seth: You're a humble man.
David: It's, it's crazy. It's crazy how humble I am.
Seth: [laughs] It's cra- I've, I've-
David: I'm really good at meditating-
Seth: It's because I meditate-
David: ... on the humility of Jesus
Seth: ... meditate on Jesus' humility so often.
David: [laughs] And-
Seth: Much more than David
David: ... much more. And, uh, and Jesus, instead of coming against evil nations, um, with physical action, he instead subjects himself under evil nations, right? Like, he goes to the biggest, baddest empire on Earth and gets killed by them, the Roman Empire.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And he humbles himself and becomes obedient to the Father, uh, all the way to death on the cross.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, gets put to death by an evil empire. Um, and-
Seth: He, I mean, so he, he re-enacts Israel's story.
David: That's exactly right.
Seth: So Israel had been crushed by Edom, an enemy nation.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so, and so did the Maccabeans. Like, so every-
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, every, every-
Seth: Every-
David: ... everybody keeps getting crushed
Seth: ... every renewal movement after this one-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... ends up failing.
David: Yes.
Seth: And to everyone looking, it looked like Jesus's renewal movement failed, too.
David: That's right.
Seth: He's another, he's another man like Jacob, like Israel during the time of Obadiah, who rises up for a period of time, but is crushed by a proud enemy.
David: That's right.
Seth: He's reliving Israel's narrative for the last millennia.
David: Yeah, and wasn't it Gamaliel in Acts that said, "If this thing is, isn't from God, it will fail"?
Seth: Yeah, he did. [laughs]
David: And it's like-
Seth: He did. [laughs]
David: And it's like, but if it succeeds, you can't stop it.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, and so yeah, it looked like Jesus dying on the cross, he's just another person in the line of Israel's story-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that maybe, maybe we, maybe we're getting crushed by, you know, [laughs] like, maybe we're not the snake crusher. You know, maybe we're not the bruised heel. Maybe we're the head that gets squished. Maybe God's promises aren't real.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know?
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause how, just like we said, how could Israel dying in this way just be a bruised heel? You know, it's like Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It's like, "It's just a flesh wound."
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
David: You know, it's like, no, it's not. It's a death sentence. Jesus is hanging on a cross. He's dead. He goes to a tomb. How is this a bruised heel? How is he supposed to end-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Satan's rule and crush the head of Caesar-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... [laughs] from a tomb?
Seth: I don't know.
David: You can't do it.
Seth: [laughs] You can't do it. [laughs]
David: And, like, that's the good news of the gospel, is that he rises from the dead.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And in his resurrection, we learn what his crucifixion was, that his crucifixion was the death blow-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to the serpent.
Seth: Yeah, and it's the death blow of the power of a nation. So I keep just thinking-
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, meditating on, like, okay, let's ke- I wanna keep thinking about nations and what nations threaten. The, the, the only thing nations can leverage is death.
David: Totally. It's their biggest, it's their biggest weapon.
Seth: It's a weapon of death, a weapon of mass destruction, a sword, a gun.A police force, an army, a secret service.
David: Right. It's, it's giving out or withholding, um, a social care.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Like food stamps.
Seth: Yeah, [laughs] or a social credit rating in China. You can-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you can live or not live a good life, depending on-
David: Yeah, or one child policy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They wield death. Governments wield death.
Seth: Right. So the reason why Jesus rising from the grave is actually a threat to proud nations-
David: Takes away their biggest and only weapon
Seth: ... is it because it... Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It takes away... It d- 'cause I, I've always wondered about this, when he, he cast down the authorities and the powers-
David: Oh
Seth: ... he undid the nations. I'm like, no, he didn't. Rome was around for, like, hundreds of years after.
David: Christians got th- fed to the lions. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's not that nations crumble. Right. It's not like Edom-
Seth: It's not
David: ... where Edom just stopped being a civilization.
Seth: It's that the power nations wield is taken away from them.
David: That's right, which is why Christians could be killed in coliseums-
Seth: Right
David: ... without fear.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because they knew that death was not the weapon that the Empire thought it was.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is why Satan is so frustrated. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Of course. It's like, "I can't do anything to him anymore."
Seth: Right.
David: "What was... It was terrific."
Seth: The worst they can do to me is kill me. Who said that?
David: Right. Oh, I don't know.
Seth: Somebody was like... Yeah, I think it was a famous Christian martyr.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he was, like, in prison, and like, "How can... Why are you here? Why won't you... Or can..."
David: Mm.
Seth: He just said, like, "The worst they can do is kill me."
David: Yeah, it's like what Paul says in Philippians, "For me to die is gain."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: How? Are you an idiot? You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's-
Seth: Well, that... Yeah, because death, this has no power for the Christian.
David: Right.
Seth: So Jesus takes away the power of the nations.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then I guess we also have to talk about the day of the Lord's judgment, final judgment against the nations-
David: Against all nations
Seth: ... when nations will actually fall.
David: Yes.
Seth: When one day, the Earth will be taken-
David: Like Edom
Seth: ... like Edom, will be destroyed from its prideful nation, and only one kingdom will stand-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the kingdom of Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... which probably leads us to the last-
David: The last bit. Absolutely
Seth: ... last bit of, uh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Obadiah, which-
David: Okay, so-
Seth: Should we just read?
David: We should.
Seth: Because it really-
David: Yeah. It's, it's, it, I mean, it's beautiful language. You'll love it. Here we go.
Seth: Do it.
David: Uh, 19 to 21, last few verses.
Seth: Is this sarcasm? [laughs]
David: Uh, yes. I apologize for all pronunciations going forward here. "Those of the Negeb shall p- shall possess Mount Esau, and those of Shephelah shall possess the land of the Philistines. They shall possess the land of Ephraim, and the land of Samaria-
Seth: This, this-
David: ... and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. The exiles of this host of the people of Israel shall possess the land of the Canaanites as far as Zeph- Ze- Zarephath
Seth: Zeph-
David: ... and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Shepherd shall possess the cities of Negeb."
Seth: Got it.
David: Right? Did you, everybody get that?
Seth: All those places.
David: Did everybody write it down?
Seth: Got it.
David: Okay. And, and, and then it says this, and the, this is the last verse of 21. Should I say it in English, or-
Seth: Sure
David: ... should I say the first word in Hebrew? 'Cause I think it's a, I think it's-
Seth: Do, do the, in Hebrew.
David: Okay, I like it. 'Cause it's, "Messiahs shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be Yahweh's."
Seth: Hm.
David: So that's a powerful last verse.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Saviors shall go up on Mount Zion to rule over Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's."
Seth: And what's easy to get lost in all those names is the word possess.
David: Yes.
Seth: So those of the Negeb, which is a place in old Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... destroyed Israel, will possess Mount Esau, a place owned by Edom. Those of Shephelah, a place in Israel, shall possess the land of the Philistines.
David: Right.
Seth: Enemy nation. Those in Ephraim, Israel, shall possess the lands of Samaria, outside of Israel. So the-
David: The dead places are going to possess living strongholds.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: All the prideful nations of the world will be destroyed, allowing the people of God to inhabit places that were once full of pride and evil.
David: That's right. And what you should be thinking, and the reason why we read this passage, is to, like, hopefully set off alarm bells of, like, hold on, I've read boring passages like this [laughs] before in my Bible. Where was that? It was in Joshua, in the conquest narrative. It's like, over and over and over again, you get these types of set, of st- of statements, where, uh, the, the tribe of Dan shall possess this land, and the tribe of Gad shall possess this land.
Seth: Mm.
David: And what's amazing about this statement is the, the land that Israel is told that they're going to possess is beyond the boundaries that they were originally given in Joshua. They're going to possess more land than they were able to pull off even under the rule of King David. They're gonna take more land when they're dead than when they were, th- th- they were, than they were at the height of their power.
Seth: Hm.
David: Like, this is a crazy promise. He's saying the conquest of Joshua is not only gonna be finished, it's going to be expanded, and Israel's land is going to be not only restored, it's going to spill out into the nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: My land is going to cover the Earth.
Seth: Which is why it's so significant that you have a series of failed renewal attempts in Ezra and Nehemiah, in the Maccabees, in whoever else you wanna name, and Jesus comes on the scene, Luke chapter four, "Repent the Kingdom of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the kingdom of the Lord is at hand." And he initiates this thing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that's at the end of Obadiah. The possessing that we do right now is spiritual possessing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There are spiritual strongholds of pride, wickedness, and injustice that inhabit the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And by the declaration of Jesus' gospel, by being included in his kingdom, which death cannot overcome, you can go into these enemy nations like Samaria, the Philistines, America, wherever you live, and you can see the Kingdom of God come where you are.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You are now a Messiah-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where you live.
David: Not... Yeah, careful. Yeah, everyone, everyone's thinking we're heretics.
Seth: Whoa. [laughs]
David: This just means an anointed one, or, like, someone that God is with, someone that God chooses and loves.
Seth: There's only one Messiah.
David: There's only one Messiah, and it's Jesus.
Seth: Capital M Messiah, Jesus.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But he has anointed us by his Spirit-
David: Right, to be ambassadors
Seth: ... to be ambassadors, to go out and do what he began.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The hope that one day the enemy lands that were all proud and overtook Israel could be o- be repossessed by Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... happens in Jesus.
David: Yes.Yeah, absolutely. Uh, that begins in, uh, Acts 1:8. You know, like, I, I've made you, you know, my witnesses to Jerusalem, and then Judea and Samaria, and then the ends of the earth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then if you'll, if you don't mind indulging me-
Seth: Please
David: ... 'cause I, I feel like you've nailed it on the head when it comes to, like, trying to describe the spiritual conquest that we as Christians in-involve ourselves in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with the expanse of the kingdom and the Great Commission and all that.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, a re- well, I've... A, a story in the Bible I love that pictures that is in Acts, uh, 8 with Simon the Sorcerer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And so Simon the Sorcerer, like, ancient historians wrote about this guy, and he was this big deal in Samaria, uh, which is, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the northern king of Israel that was just, like, a hodgepodge of religious nonsense, like syncretism, and no one knew what they believed, and it was-
Seth: Sorcerers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... were a big deal.
David: Sorcerers were a big deal. This dude had statues built to him. Like, he was a big deal.
Seth: Kinda like Balaam in the Old Testament.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes, totally. Uh, but this guy's more like David Blaine, you know?
Seth: Got it.
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: Got it.
David: More, more... [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: What's the other guy's name? Criss Angel?
David: Criss Angel.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, they had rivalries in Samaria.
Seth: Got it.
David: Uh, and so people would, would come to Simon the Sorcerer and, like, really, like, worship him, and they got their spiritual guidance from this guy. And he was operating and, like, doing miracles in the power of Satan-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, like, just getting into people's heads and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... controlling them. And Philip comes to Samari- into Samaria, pre-preaches the gospel, just preaches the gospel. He doesn't topple statues, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: He doesn't come in with an army. He just preaches the good news of what Jesus did.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And everyone gets, like, freed from the spell that they're under with Simon, and even Simon himself repents and believes in Jesus. And, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the whole land is cured-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from the Satanic rule that was over it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, that kinda stuff is what happens when the gospel goes places. And, like, it doesn't always look like Simon the Sorcerer.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: It can look like a family completely hooked on Netflix-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where they just never talk to each other, and, like, their entire worldview is shaped by pop culture. You know, it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... they're under a spell.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the gospel wants to come in and break that. And, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... anyway, I was, like, trying to think tangible.
Seth: No, that's really good. And l- no, it's really good. And then we as people who have been anointed by God, who can go into the nation of Netflix-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and break the spell. We can go into the nation of Netflix with the Holy Spirit. We can be a savior to our families-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and to our friends. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's good.
David: And we bring the kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: The kingdom comes, right? [laughs]
Seth: The kingdom comes. That's right.
David: Um, and so, uh, I've got one final thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's a last verse kind of observation. Do you have anything else that you wanna-
Seth: No
David: ... throw in? Okay. Um, so there's this, the, again, this line, uh, "Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord's." Okay, so you have this picture of saviors, plural, messiahs-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... anointed people, God's chosen people will come up on Mount Zion. This is the, the metaphorical location where heaven and earth meet. Uh, it's like the new Garden of Eden. It's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's the high place where God's people can be with God. And they're gonna come up this mountain, sit with God, and they will rule over all the other smaller mountains around them, represented by Mount Esau.
Seth: Got it.
David: Right? So they're gonna rule over all these other places. But, uh, even though they're rulers, even though they're called messiahs, even though they're called saviors, it says that the kingdoms, though, isn't theirs, right?
Seth: Right.
David: It's the Lord's kingdom, but it's being ruled by-
Seth: Mm
David: ... earthly messiahs, earthly saviors, earthly leaders, earthly Christians.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, uh, and it's like, this is this, one of these strange mysteries of the Bible, um, that, that, like, we will have a throne next to God's throne, or that we-
Seth: Mm
David: ... will judge angels, or that we will rule with Christ. Or like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these weird statements that are in Daniel and some of the epistles-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where it's just like-
Seth: "You're seated with Christ-"
David: You're seated with-
Seth: "... in the heavenly places"
David: ... Christ in the heavenly places, Colossians. Okay. Sure.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, this is that O- Obadiah 21 just has this-
Seth: And what-
David: ... amazing hope in it.
Seth: And I think, too, like, Israel historically is an oppressed people.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from Egypt, Assyria, Babylon. They, they had a, a golden age under Solomon for a period of time, but-
David: Right
Seth: ... generally, the Jewish people have been oppressed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and what do oppressed people want?
David: Oh.
Seth: To rule in their favor.
David: Right. Totally.
Seth: To be represe-
David: Rightfully so
Seth: ... to be represented in government and rule-
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... for the sake of the good of their people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and not be ruled by the prideful whims of others.
David: Yes.
Seth: And in Christ, they get that.
David: Mm.
Seth: A- [laughs] Like, really, this is a, it's like you finally get to rule on behalf of your people.
David: Right.
Seth: Rule in their favor with equity and justice-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not the way they have been oppressed previously.
David: Yes.
Seth: That applies for any group that's been marginalized or oppressed. One of the hopes of the gospel is that one day you will rule for and on behalf of your people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And you should want that. You should-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... pray for that with Obadiah.
David: Don't ask us what that looks like.
Seth: Yeah, [laughs] I don't know.
David: We just know it's a promise. Uh-
Seth: It's-
David: The other thing I would point out here and what that quote-unquote "looks like" is that is, this is the hyped-up, spiritualized version of what I- Israel was supposed to look like and what the Garden of Eden looked like.
Seth: Mm. Right.
David: Like, the, the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... uh, Adam and Eve were described as kings and queens, and they were given the rights of kings and queens in the Garden of Eden. They were given dominion over every living thing and over all the land. What else does a king have over, o-other than dominion over his land and his-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... subjects? Like, that's what Adam and Eve were, but they used that rule, or at least they were supposed to use that rule, to care for, cultivate, tend the landAlongside God who was there walking with them in the cool of the day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Same thing for Israel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They were supposed to have God in their midst, in the temple, living alongside him, communing with him, worshiping with him, seeing his glory, and acting, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a way consistent with his character to all the nations so that the world would be blessed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's not what it looked like. So now in the church, like, what our goal is, is to have God living inside of us through the Holy Spirit, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Communing with him, and acting consistently with his character, tending the garden around us, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... letting, uh, like ruling with him over-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... sin and the kingdom of Netflix-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, taking back land.
Seth: And even, like, just more, like, all of us lead.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like whether that's-
David: Something
Seth: ... yeah, like the shift, or your kids, or [laughs] your husband, or your wife, like everybody leads somebody.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? So, like, this i- and there's a calling here for us to lead as we've been saved.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, lead alongside Jesus. Like, it's ... Yeah.
David: Yeah. And then the ultimate good news of that last verse though is that the kingdom is the Lord's.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That who ultimately sits on Mount Zion, like, who ultimately comes and sits at the center of the universe enthroned with all power and all dominion over every wicked and prideful nation, and who rules the world with absolute equity, representing every single person with fairness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with no discrimination, it's Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is the king who is coming, and when he comes, uh, and he brings heaven to earth as Revelation 21 describes, like, he will sit in the middle of us on quote-unquote Mount Zion, right? And he will-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... rule over us. We also will be ruled by Christ, but it will be the sweetest rule we've ever had. [laughs] I always think about there's, like, this, uh, it's kind of like a double-edged sword because it's a really gross moment in the Avengers movies.
Seth: Okay.
David: But it's also, like, it's kinda true what he's saying. Do you remember this time when Loki-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, is, like, stealing some artifact from Germany?
Seth: Okay.
David: And he, like, comes outside, and police gather around, and he, like, dons his-
Seth: Yes
David: ... cape and everything.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: And he tells everyone to kneel, and they all kneel, and he says, "See? Isn't this your natural state? You were made to be ruled."
Seth: Ruled, yeah. [laughs]
David: And I'm like, "That's gross how you're talking about it."
Seth: Right.
David: But it's also very true-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... that, like, we were made to be ruled and to rule.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, like, the good news here is that we will be ruled by Jesus one day.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it will be so good to live in his kingdom.
Seth: Yeah, not a man trying to-
David: Yes
Seth: ... [laughs] not enviously trying to prove that he's better than his-
David: Right
Seth: ... older brother Thor.
David: But the man r- but the man who died-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It's the Jacob and Esau of the Avengers.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But, like, this is, like, the man who died for us, our br- and, like, he's called our brother. Jesus calls himself our brother, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that we're co-heirs with our brother.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, we don't get cut out of the blessing with Jesus.
Seth: Think about that.
David: We get grafted into the covenant with Jesus.
Seth: Well, think about that as good news from sibling rivalry.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, all of human his- all of Esau's history is, like, you can't rule with your brother.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You can't ... Like, you and your brother never get along.
David: It's gonna be one or the other.
Seth: It's one or the other.
David: As Paul said in Romans 9-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the younger I loved, the older I hated.
Seth: And, like, that's just the way your history is gonna-
David: It's how it goes
Seth: ... always, always gonna be. And I'm pretty sure if you traced back the history of most nations, you would find some family members splitting or even just close friends-
David: Yeah, totally
Seth: ... splitting over w- the way that the nation was meant to be ruled.
David: Well, fine, I'll go start America.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: It's like, it's like you have that in all of human history. It's so, like, the sibling rivalry metastasizing out into-
David: Mm
Seth: ... global conflicts, that's just solved because one day we'll rule with our brother.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus proves it's possible.
David: It's possible to rule with your brother and to be grafted in. It also flips the story of Jacob and Esau's near reconciliation. On its head, it completes it. So, like, Jacob is about to meet his brother Esau after being away from him for years, and Esau's, he thinks, is still furious with him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he sends this parade of gifts in front of him to Esau-
Seth: Right
David: ... to try to assuage him before meeting him face-to-face. But by the time he meets him, he realizes Esau's not mad at him anymore. Like, he's got his own kingdom. He's doing good. And, like, Esau, like, kinda forgives his brother and says, "You know what? You can have the birthright. It's fine. It's yours." And so they go their separate ways.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then they rule in different territories, you know? And it's like, oh, there wasn't really resolution 'cause then they start-
Seth: Mm
David: ... fighting again, and the numbers thing comes up with Balaam and, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it wasn't solved. It's like, oh, even from, like, a, just a literal or a literary-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... biblical, theological thread-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... tie from Genesis to Revelation, when Jesus returns to Earth to rule with us as our brother, the, the, we get a resolution to the story-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of Jacob and Esau finally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That was just a fun little-
Seth: I like that
David: ... literary tie.
Seth: I like that. Well, I think we've covered the bases on Obadiah.
David: Not bad for 21 verses.
Seth: For 21 verses, we're, we're, we're stretching.
David: Pushing our Bible muscles.
Seth: Stretching our Bible muscles. [laughs] I don't know.
David: Getting swole on the word.
Seth: Always.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's why we, we look so great in a swimsuit.
David: Oh.
Seth: There you go.
David: Yes. That's the way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to end the podcast.
Seth: Indeed.
David: Indeed.
Seth: We'll see you next week. [laughs]
David: [laughs] What, what book are we in next, Seth?
Seth: Next, we're in Amos.
David: Okay, great.
Seth: We, we skipped over Amos to do Obadiah as a quick one-off, uh, because it's the only g- this'll be the only podcast-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to get on O- Obadiah, but we'll be in Amos next time.
David: Okay, the social justice prophet.
Seth: Yes.
David: Let's go. All right, we'll see you guys in Amos. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]