David: [upbeat music] And so if we are only changed by beholding Jesus in the gospel, then what we're doing here by opening up Titus and talking about Jesus, what you're doing now, listener, as you're sitting in your car or on a run-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or whatever, listening to this podcast and hearing the gospel, is you're encountering the person of Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that will change and sa- and safeguard your heart.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his Good News. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Seth, how are you?
Seth: I am feeling great.
David: Yeah?
Seth: A little-
David: Feeling great?
Seth: Yeah. I mean, a little tired.
David: A little tired.
Seth: But I'm ready to talk about Titus.
David: Could be all the study.
Seth: Could be all the study.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We did like a marathon study session, uh, for this and our next podcast on the Book of James.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, so I just feel like study fog.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I'm also, like, excited to get the ideas out of me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Get the fog out.
David: That'll probably be good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You- you've been filling up the sponge, and now-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I get to wring you out.
Seth: That's, that's, that's the truth.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's the truth.
David: So okay, so we're starting in Titus.
Seth: Titus.
David: Today, we're doing an overview of that book.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, what do we need to have in our heads as we come into the Book of Titus?
Seth: In some ways, the Book of Titus is a pretty easy book to understand.
David: Okay.
Seth: Paul is sending his coworker, Titus, to the Island of Crete to install some leaders who have a really simple message to teach. They need to teach that Jesus has appeared, and they need to devote themselves to good works.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like, that's [laughs] really the summary statement. It's found, he says it pretty explicitly in chapter 3, verses 8. "We should insist on the Good News that Jesus has appeared, and then devote ourselves to good works." And that's the Book of Titus. It's like, it's like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... a nice little bow. We're not talking about the Kingdom of God.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We're not talking about these cra- like, deep mysteries hidden behind-
David: Although-
Seth: Although
David: ... we do have the lazy drunks of Crete.
Seth: Ah.
David: We have profiteering circumcisers. We have-
Seth: We have a-
David: ... what happens when Jesus appears in the preaching of his word. So we got some weird s-
Seth: We do have some-
David: ... some crazy stuff here going on
Seth: ... fun stuff to talk about. But the message behind it all is fairly simple.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We're gonna come down on, let's talk about God appearing, and let's talk about what it means to do good works.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's what we're talking about. But you're right. Let's talk about Crete.
David: Okay. Crete.
Seth: It's a island in the Mediterranean.
David: All right. Is this the only book written to an island?
Seth: Uh, Revelation was written-
David: Or written from an island [laughs]
Seth: ... from an island. Uh, but I guess it might be true.
David: Maybe it might be true.
Seth: Uh-
David: It has no significance. [laughs]
Seth: I mean, [laughs] yeah.
David: I just thought it was an interesting trivia fact.
Seth: Um, yeah. So it was, it's an island in the Mediterranean, and it was a port city for a whole bunch of trading routes-
David: I see
Seth: ... within the Roman Empires.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's several cities along its coast, where ships from all over Rome would come, drop off supplies, pick up supplies, and then ship them throughout the rest of the Mediterranean.
David: Yeah. And civilizations like that are typically, um, really upstanding and-
Seth: Oh.
David: Oh, no
Seth: You know, I mean, have you ever heard of like Tortuga? [laughs]
David: From Pirates of the Caribbean? [laughs]
Seth: From Pirates of the Caribbean.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, this is where all the pirates go.
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is where, like, all the sailors come. And Crete was just known for being this safe haven for disreputable... I mean, almost the entire, at one point in history, almost the entire island, its men were employed as mercenary army laborers.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: So like [laughs] just-
David: Guns for hire
Seth: ... guns for hire. Like, the Island of Crete was like-
David: That's like a-
Seth: ... that's where you go to get your muscle
David: ... it's like in Star Wars: A New Hope, at Mos Eisley Cantina-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where Obi-Wan Kenobi says-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... "Uh, you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
Seth: And we also have a quote like that here in Titus. [laughs]
David: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What? [laughs]
Seth: Uh, this is Titus 1:12, "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own," so a, a Cretan philosopher-
David: Yes
Seth: ... said this, "Cretans are always liars-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then [laughs] Paul follows up with, "This testimony is true." [laughs]
David: [laughs] So they are, they are even, like, self-identified as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this wretched hive of scum and villainy, and they're proud of it.
Seth: And presumably pretty proud of it. And some people have connected this to the god Zeus.
David: Oh, why?
Seth: Presumably Zeus was born on the Island of Crete.
David: Oh. Well, oh.
Seth: Um-
David: I guess I never thought about Greek gods being, like having-
Seth: Having birth narratives
David: ... well, yeah, with birth narratives and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... earthly origin stories
Seth: ... so apparently he, he was b- birthed on the Island of Crete, and Zeus was just known for being a seductive, manipulative, lying type of god. And apparently these people have just taken the message of Zeus to heart.
David: So, so Zeus was a jerk?
Seth: So, yeah. I mean, like, if... Well, I just saw the new Thor movie, Love and Thunder.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And like, Zeus in Love and Thunder is a fairly accurate representation, I mean, a milder version-
David: Yes
Seth: ... [laughs] of what we, uh, see in actual mythology. So yeah.
David: So the, the Disney cartoon Hercules lied to me about Zeus.
Seth: I, I-
David: He's not this nice father figure
Seth: ... wasn't allowed to watch Hercules as a kid.
David: [gasps] No way.
Seth: And it was, hasn't been one of the ones to made it on my list to re-watch.
David: Yeah, he's just, like, this like really proud father who wants the best for his son, and he protects Olympus. But then one of our staff writers was talking to us about Zeus. She's very familiar with some of his antics.
Seth: [laughs]
David: She's so disgusted by him-
Seth: She's-
David: ... she regularly will not engage in conversation
Seth: She's literally refused to tell us any stories about Zeus. [laughs]
David: Yeah, because he's apparently-
Seth: [laughs]
David: She's like, "You don't wanna have to go through the therapy-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you'll need after me telling you what the stories of Zeus are about." So apparently he's a really terrible guy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that has birthed this city, this-
Seth: The-
David: ... island of terrible people.
Seth: This has nothing to do with the Book of, of Titus.
David: No, it's just b- no, no, no, no. Oh.
Seth: This next fact I'm about to say-
David: Oh, oh, [laughs]
Seth: ... has nothing to do with the Book of Titus, is that apparently the Cretan mythology also claimed that Zeus died-
David: Oh
Seth: ... on the island of Crete and was buried in Crete. But all the other Zeus worshipers around, uh, the Mediterranean were like, "No, no, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. Gods don't die."
David: Right.
Seth: "Zeus can't be dead." And all the Cretans are like, "No, no, no, he's dead."
David: No, he's dead.
Seth: "His tomb's right over here." [laughs]
David: He's dead. [laughs] That's so weird.
Seth: Yeah, so they're just known for being a whole bunch of rabble-rousers-
David: Oh, my God
Seth: ... weird, left of center, lazy, gluttonous, brutish people whose theology is bad according to g- the Greek philosophers. So they're just-
David: And so Paul has the hot idea to plant a church there?
Seth: Exactly right. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, "You know where it sounds great to plant a church?"
David: The lovely island-
Seth: Island of Crete
David: ... of Crete. How about a-
Seth: Uh
David: ... how about a nice paradisiacal holiday there?
Seth: Paradisiacal?
David: Pa- para- paradisal?
Seth: Like-
David: Pa-
Seth: ... paradisiacal.
David: Paradi-
Seth: Paradise
David: ... dise.
Seth: Para- anyway.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Idyllic holiday.
David: Idyllic holiday.
Seth: Holiday.
David: Titus. And it's not really gonna be that for him, poor guy.
Seth: Um, no, it's, it's not.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he sends Titus dow- out there, and he's supposed to preach the truth, that Jesus Christ has appeared, Jesus has come, and he has both demonstrated and transformed us to live godly lives.
David: Oh.
Seth: Which ma- which makes total sense.
David: Yeah, I mean-
Seth: You've got-
David: ... if anybody needs a godly life, it's these Cretans.
Seth: It's these Cretans. But what's really fascinating-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about the Book of Titus is that, sure, you've got a, a nation full of mercenaries who are morally terrible and- [laughs]
David: Hang out at Zeus's tomb. [laughs]
Seth: Hang out at Zeus's tomb, and nobody else agrees is r- a real thing. So in this den of immorality-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I would've expected that most of the letter is dealing with all the different ways. Like, let's, let's talk about mercenary behavior. Let's talk about sexual licentiousness.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's talk about seduction.
David: Things that, like-
Seth: Let's talk-
David: ... get picked up more in, like, 1 Corinthians and, like, other letters-
Seth: Yeah, and he'll make a-
David: ... of Paul
Seth: ... he'll make mention of that, but this dead center of Paul's bullseye is not Cretan immorality, it's false religion.
David: Right.
Seth: And this is a fascinating point, so much so that we were confused about it. Like, wait, wait, wait. We thought he, we lived on Crete.
David: Right.
Seth: But all he's talking about is these people preaching circumcision.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So what's going on?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and so we should just open up to Titus 1.
David: Okay.
Seth: Chapter 10 through 16-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which is where t- uh, the longest, like, dialogue that Paul has with Titus about these Judaizers. "There are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party." So we should b- probably pause.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's he talking about when he says circumcision party?
David: Yeah, I mean, clearly there's a party that someone's throwing. [laughs]
Seth: And they're all getting circumcised. [laughs]
David: They're all getting circumcised. Welcome to the circumcision party.
Seth: Welcome to Crete, guys. [laughs]
David: Just right at the dock, right whenever you, you get aboard. Uh, no, the party I think there is more of the language about like, uh, like the Republican Party or the Democratic Party.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: It's a, it's a group of people set apart by their ideology.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so you've got the party of circumcision, and typically when Paul is talking about this sect of Judaism inside of Christianity-
Seth: Christianity
David: ... he's talking about something very specific. The, the difficulty here that we have to be careful of, and just wanna flag for everybody, is a lot of scholars have talked about how we don't wanna view this as a homogenous, unified movement that was happening in Asia Minor, in Crete, in all these different places that Paul's interacting with, that somehow there was this circumcision party headquarters-
Seth: They-
David: ... and they were sending out missionaries.
Seth: Okay, okay, okay.
David: But it was probably just like, it's a logical conclusion that you have Jewish people who read the, the Torah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they were use- they were like, "Oh, you have to get circumcised. It's in the Torah."
Seth: Right. And now that I believe in Jesus, you still gotta get circumcised.
David: You still have to do the thing. So i- they-
Seth: So the party of the circumcision is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a group of Christians-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who are teaching that in order to really distinguish yourself from the surrounding culture and o- truly obey God, you need to get circumcised.
David: Yeah, I think the only nuance I would add to that is were they Christians, or were they people who maybe were-
Seth: Claimed to be Chri-
David: Yeah, claimed that, like, Jesus, maybe Jesus was the Messiah.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Maybe he did fulfill some of the, uh, messianic expectations of the Old Testament.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But that doesn't mean you don't have to get circumcised anymore. W- this is what you have to do to distinguish yourself from the surrounding culture and be a part of the covenant people of God. It's how it's always been. It's how it always will be.
Seth: Even if you believe in Jesus, even if he's died for all your sins, you still have to-
David: Right
Seth: ... be circumcised to separate yourself from the surrounding culture.
David: That's right. God appeared to us on Mount Sinai.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He revealed to us the law, and he's given us the way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to be set apart from the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is how you do it.
Seth: And I can imagine just being a, a parent on the island of Crete, and I have a group of teachers that come in, and they say, like, "You've gotta separate yourself from the culture. You can't be like Cretans."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And one easy way to know that is eat kosher, 'cause everybody else is eating pigs, circumcise your sons, and act in accordance to God's laws. Take a rest on the Sabbath when everybody else is working."
David: Right.
Seth: "And this way you'll be a very clearly defined community inside the immorality of Crete, and you can wall yourselves off that way."
David: That's right. The law is the distinguishing feature-
Seth: Okay
David: ... uh, for God's community here, whether, you know, like, yeah, Jesus, great, but it's the law.
Seth: And what's, but what's crazy is, like, okay, that we've painted a very sympathetic light-Paul says these are empty talkers, insubordinate, deceivers. Verse 11, "They must be silenced because they're upsetting whole families by teaching this doctrine for shameful gain."
David: Right.
Seth: So it's like Paul s- speaks really poorly of this idea of separating yourself out from the culture by following the Jewish laws as the way to please God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, he's h- wants nothing to do with it.
David: Right.
Seth: And apparently people wanna hear it. Maybe talk about that. Why do people want to hear this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so much that they'd be willing to pay for it?
David: Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to what you were saying about the real threat to Christian vitality wasn't Christian immorality and all the sin and Mos Eisley cantina-ness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of it all, but it was religion, which religion is always a man-made system to earn God's favor. And so that is what's so dangerous, is because i- in, in something like circumcision, you're able to take... Whenever it's cut off-
Seth: Mm. Mm
David: ... you know, pardon the pun, to, uh, from everything that it represents and the story of God that it's bound to, that Jesus fulfills. When it's just an act that you do-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... even resting on the Sabbath or-
Seth: Right
David: ... performing this ritual or eating a certain diet, when those acts are just performed to earn God's favor, completely separate from the, the heart, completely separate from the kind of person he wants to make you into, the relationship he wants to invite you into, they become shortcuts to, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... buying God's favor, and they actually never change the person.
Seth: Right.
David: And so religion can come, and it can make bad people worse-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because it g- it gives bad people a license to continue to be bad without-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... transforming them. And those who are able to capitalize on it get rich, and they can spread that message even further and- [laughs]
Seth: Right
David: ... gain more political capital.
Seth: Well, I guess my question is, but, but why do people wanna hear that message?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Like, why, why do... Is it attractive to hear the message that I have to cut off part of my penis? Like, why is that-
David: Oh, [laughs] right. Yeah.
Seth: Like, why, why is that, like, something that I'd be willing to spend money on?
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Right? Like, that's what he's accusing them of.
David: Right.
Seth: And like, so why is that compelling?
David: Yeah.
Seth: We painted a sympathetic vision.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Like, this is how you separate yourself from the certain culture, but, like, people are now g- profiting off of this idea?
David: Right. Totally.
Seth: What's so compelling about this? Why is it so powerful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Paul has to use such strong language?
David: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's consumeristic religion. It's a religion that costs something but doesn't cost everything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so you're able to buy in to the grace of God and appeasement of the gods without actually changing your life, without actually laying down your life. I mean, the same thing happens all the time with everything from televangelists selling holy water to, you know, Catholic indulgences, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... back in the day, is we'll do anything we can to be able to find shortcuts into being right with God, and that's attractive to us because it's much easier than actually obeying God and submitting to God and being transformed into the image of God. We'd much rather just buy a bracelet that says, "Oh, I'm WWJD" than actually-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... doing what Jesus would do.
Seth: Mm.
David: I think that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah. I'm also thinking just, like, probably the emotional power of that appeal. You know, like, all... If you just, like, don't work on Saturdays-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... if you just don't eat pork, your kids are gonna be fine.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They'll be s- sheltered from the, the craziness of the world. Just do these four things, and they'll turn out all right. $20, please.
David: Yeah. [laughs] Right.
Seth: You know? [laughs] And it's like, oh, I'll, I'll support that ministry because that's so-
David: Right
Seth: ... that, that's easy. I can, I can do the stuff, and then I have the assurance that my kids will be okay.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I have the assurance, like, I'm okay with God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's easy to feel the weight of that. Like, if I can just-
David: Right
Seth: ... do certain things that separate me from everybody else around me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I can feel self-righteous that I'm-
David: Yes
Seth: ... better than the people around me.
David: Right.
Seth: I can be a- justifiably afraid and angry at the culture around me.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I have a whole bunch of teachers who tell me that I'm right and they're wrong.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's an appealing religion to me.
David: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's like... And to talk about it, 'cause they were profiting off of this.
Seth: Right.
David: It was a circumcision party, and you and I have talked off-air about how circumcision, one way to talk about it, is a Jewish identity marker.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That was the way to know that you're in and not out.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so it really is i- in this-
Seth: Right
David: ... in this situation, it's kind of helpful to think about it like getting a bracelet or a badge or-
Seth: Mm
David: ... some piece of belonging accoutrement-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is just like, "Oh, you're a part of the group."
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, well, that's an easy sell-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause it's, you can buy your way into the group.
Seth: Mm.
David: And buy your way into that identity and into that feeling of safety, into that religion.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so... Well, yeah. So, so back to your point then, Paul says that that's the main problem in Crete-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and not necessarily the Christian immorality, that he actually... Doesn't he use the prophetic quote about them being lazy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and everything against the circumcisers?
Seth: Yeah, the people who are claiming to separate themselves from Cretan immorality, Paul uses the quote, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts and lazy gluttons," to refer to the people teaching-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... r- strict moral observance to the Jewish law.
David: They're the real Cretans.
Seth: They're the real Cretans, which is ki- which is-
David: Oh, yeah, and doesn't Cretan mean liar?
Seth: It does mean liar. We forgot to mention that. Yeah. Like-
David: Yeah, so it's like they're the liars.
Seth: Yeah. It, the-
David: They're lying
Seth: ... the word in Greek, to be a liar, is Cretizo, which is from the word to be a Cretan.
David: Mm.
Seth: To be a Cretan is to be a liar.
David: [laughs]
Seth: To be a liar is to be a Cretan, and these people are lying to you about the way to please God and distinguish-
David: Mm
Seth: ... yourself from the world around you.
David: Okay. All right. So then that's what's going on behind the scenes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How does Paul instruct Timothy to respond to all of this?
Seth: Well, verse 13, "Therefore rebuke them sharply" -
David: [laughs]
Seth: "... that they may be sound in the faith."
David: [laughs]
Seth: So it's like, so, like, rebuke the false teachers. [laughs]
David: What's so funny about that is how much time we spent in First and Second Timothy where that wasn't Paul's instruction.We, we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... noticed how they had some different kinds of issues going on with their leadership and their false teachers.
Seth: Mm.
David: And Paul was like, "Don't engage in their myths. Don't get down on their level. Don't get into the arguments. Instead, just stand up on Sunday and preach-
Seth: Mm
David: ... from God's word." And here, he's like, "All right, go show them what's up"
Seth: Well, therefore rebuke them sharply that they may be sound of faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the same phrase used-
David: Same phrase
Seth: ... ti- uh, from Timothy, and the commandments of men so that they turn away from the truth.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I wonder if he's encouraging the same kind of rebuking-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we imagine. It's not that Timothy was not supposed to, like, critique false teachers. Like, the way that you critique it is by preaching truth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And here he's kind of, I think, maybe doing the same type of thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Rebuke them by teaching the truth, which he's gonna go on-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to define in a couple of minutes, but I mean, either way.
David: No, that makes sense. Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay, so his, his first bit of advice is rebuke them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Get some-
Seth: And then he says this really interesting phrase, "To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their minds and their consciences-
David: Mm
Seth: ... are defiled." Did you hear that verse growing up?
David: I did.
Seth: What did you think it meant?
David: That, like, if I was going to be a pure person, I could only engage in pure things.
Seth: To the pure, all things are pure.
David: I don't think it made sense, but that's how-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it was always, like, taught to me, I think.
Seth: Yeah. What's interesting is we've been talking about, okay, religion is the main problem.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And this is part of his critique of the religion i- and the way that Timothy's supposed to respond to it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Respond to this false religion with the understanding that to the pure, all things are pure.
David: Mm.
Seth: I'm like, oh, okay. Uh, here's what I think he's trying to get at.
David: Okay.
Seth: Circumcision, eating kosher-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... these, these following the law and-
David: All purity rituals
Seth: ... all these purity rituals to distinguish yourself from the culture around you.
David: Right.
Seth: These are the commandments of men.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They are adding to the true regulations of the law of Jesus Christ. They're adding something-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to what Jesus Christ has done.
David: 'Cause they were the, they were the commandments of God.
Seth: Right.
David: So how can he call the commandments of God commandments of men?
Seth: Right. I guess one way to understand it would be to just mimic what Jesus' critique of the Pharisees were. Jesus said that they weren't following the law because they were adding a whole bunch of regulations on top of it. The Sabbath says to rest on the Sabbath, not that you can't pick heads of grain off-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the field while you're-
David: If you're a poor, hungry person
Seth: ... if you're, if you're a poor, hungry person.
David: Right.
Seth: They're adding regulations, commandments of men.
David: Right.
Seth: I guess the other way to, to say it is that, well, because Jesus Christ has saved us by grace alone, the, we don't need to follow the commandments of these men [laughs] in order-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to receive salvation from God.
David: Right.
Seth: I, I guess-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you could probably think-
David: Or yeah, I think that makes me think of maybe another way that he might be getting there is to get circumcised for any other reason than it was intended by God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which was to point to the Messiah that from the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... reproductive organs of Israelites-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the Messiah would come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But to do it as a means of earning God's favor, that twists-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the command-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... away from being a command of God and into being a command of men.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: I think all three kinda circle the same truth.
Seth: All, yes.
David: Okay. I, okay, I understand.
Seth: So they're turning away from the truth by following Jewish myths and the commands of men. So what that means is, though, that to those who are in Christ, to those who've been purified by Jesus, eating kosher or not kosher is okay. To those who've been purified, everything is pure.
David: Ah.
Seth: Kosher food's pure, not kosher food is pur- pure.
David: Can, can I say that a different way?
Seth: Yeah.
David: See if I'm understanding you. So if you're pure, meaning you've been saved by Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through grace-
Seth: In just a couple verses, we'll be told that we have been made pure by Jesus, and we'll get there-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in a second.
David: So, so yeah. So a Christian-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... can eat pork.
Seth: That's-
David: Someone clean in Jesus can eat a formerly unclean food.
Seth: They can be circumcised or uncircumcised.
David: To the pure, all things are pure.
Seth: Yes.
David: So to the pure, pork is pure. To the pure, uncircumcision is pure.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: To the pure, the Sabbath is pure.
Seth: Yeah. To those who have been made pure by Jesus, you can work on the Sabbath or not work on the Sabbath.
David: Okay.
Seth: To those who have been made pu- pure by Jesus, you can eat pigs or not eat pigs.
David: Okay.
Seth: So I think that's what he's saying.
David: Okay, yep. I got it.
Seth: But to those whose minds and consciences have been defiled, to those who place their hope in external markers of identity to separate themselves from the culture-
David: Ah
Seth: ... nothing can ever be pure. Why? Because everything is either a plus or a minus on their inclusion or exclusion in God's kingdom.
David: Mm.
Seth: What I eat, does God like me more? Does, uh, God like me less? Is h- how I treat my body, what's on the line there? Your conscience is on the line in-
David: Right
Seth: ... every one of those circumstances. Your salvation scorecard's always going up and down based on your behavior. And in that sense, their consciences are defiled-
David: Right
Seth: ... because everything either makes them self-righteous or self-pitying. I feel better about myself because I'm one of the only people who are circumcised in my, my entire friend group.
David: Man.
Seth: I feel better-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about myself because I don't work on the Sabbath, but everybody else in my culture does.
David: So you're saying then, let me re- rephrase that. You're saying that to the, those whose consciences are defiled-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which are the i- unpure, those who haven't been saved by the grace of Jesus, not even actual good, pure things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... are of any benefit to them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because they weren't meant to make them pure to begin with.
Seth: They weren't meant-
David: And they're using them the wrong way.
Seth: Yeah, that's probably the clear way to say it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because one way Christine said it, our, our other member of the writing team, if Jesus Christ has made you pure, how can you become more pure?
David: Mm.
Seth: You can't, and to say that you must eat kosher, that you must be circumcised to make you more pure is to add silver-
David: Right
Seth: ... to gold.
David: Oh, in, yeah.
Seth: And then now that gold is no longer pure. It's an alloy. It's a mix.
David: Whoa.
Seth: It's no longer the purest thing it could be because it was the purest thing it could be when Jesus Christ purified you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So to go ahead and add on top of that-Silver, bronze, circumcision is a take away from the purity that Jesus has already given you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is why they're defiled as any- as, as defiled as any other Cretan is.
David: Right. Yeah, if I say... Okay, so I just had like a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... picture of like a purifying water pitcher.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like I have in my house, and I, I'll take water and I'll-
Seth: Like a Brita pitch-
David: A Brita pi- like a Brita pitcher.
Seth: [laughs] Like a, a sacrificial puri-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like a jar for-
David: Yeah, you don't know about my sacrificial [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... water jar?
Seth: I did not.
David: No, like a Brita pitcher-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that you get from Walmart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so like a, a Brita pitcher, and I pour the impure water-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... up top, and it filters out, and then it's pure-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in- inside. Let's say I had two of them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And I filter both.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then I've got pure water, and then I take more pure water, and it's good.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I mix the two.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It didn't make the water mu- more pure.
Seth: No.
David: You can't do that.
Seth: No.
David: But if I had pure water on, in one pitcher and just tap water in the other, and I... It doesn't matter if I pour the pure water into it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's still all those minerals and-
Seth: Right
David: ... chlorine and all that stuff because that itself was still-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... impure.
Seth: I think to... The clearest way to say it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like circumcision was never intended to make you pure.
David: Yeah. It was meant to make you hope in what could make you pure.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, the Messiah.
Seth: And when the Messiah come, when Jesus, uh, Christ appears, he makes you pure.
David: He will cut off the un- circumcision of your heart.
Seth: So to insist, to demand that people have to be circumcised, to eat kosher in order to truly remain separate and pure from their surrounding culture is to miss the entire point of the gospel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is why he says this is the biggest problem in Crete.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because what all this is gonna do is lead to actual more impurity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because you're mixing the purity Jesus can give you with your own sense of self-righteousness.
David: Right.
Seth: Your own, like, way to be pure. It's kind of a complicated point, and we're spending a lot of time on it.
David: Yeah, but it's-
Seth: But-
David: So it gets to the heart of why Paul's so bent out of shape about it, 'cause I'm also just, like, thinking about how we fall into this trap all the time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Where we feel impure, and so we try to add pure things to our lives to fix us.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like I don't feel like I'm right with God, so I'm gonna add really good things. I'm gonna-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm gonna read my Bible. I'm gonna pray. I'm gonna go to church.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: All great, pure things that you should do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right, right, right.
David: But that's not gonna make you pure. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, it never will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Only Jesus alone by faith alone-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through grace alone will make you pure, and then you're free. And then all things are pure to you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you're free to go to church, and you're fr- you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's just like, man, it's so-
Seth: You're free to eat kosher because your salvation isn't on the line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Your inclusion in God's family isn't on the line.
David: Oh, it's just... There's so much freedom there. Anyway, just wanted to land that.
Seth: Prote- yeah, protection from your set of koshers i- isn't on the line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's all good due to Jesus.
David: Mm. [gentle music]
Seth: Twice in the Book of Titus, what's gonna happen is that Paul is gonna give some commands to a group of people. So at the beginning of chapter 2, he gives a whole bunch of commands to different members of a, a common Cretan household.
David: Mm.
Seth: Older men, older women, younger men, younger women, slaves, like anybody that would exist inside of a house.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he says, "Here's how you can be pure."
David: Ah.
Seth: And then he says, "Here's how" or "Here's why you can be pure."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's gonna do that twice, and then he does it in the household in chapter 2. And then in chapter 3, he kinda expands it out to all humanity and says, "Here's, uh, how all humanity can be pure."
David: Mm.
Seth: And what's fascinating is both times, the way that humanity is made pure is because Jesus Christ appears.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Jesus appears, and that's what makes us pure. So verse 11 of chapter 2, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training or teaching us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present age." So first of all, uh, Jesus Christ appeared. The grace of God has appeared in Jesus, and he brought salvation by dying for people's sins, nailing their impurity to the cross, and then teaching us what it looks like to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, to love God, and to love our neighbors as ourselves, to live self-controlled and upright lives. That's what Jesus came to do. That's what he did at the cross. That's what he did during his life.
David: Mm.
Seth: He came and appeared, and he showed us that. So it don't have anything to do with Cretan immorality or this false teaching nonsense. Trust in the appearing and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Questions?
David: Yeah. Uh, oh, man, so many. Okay. First is help me connect the dots here with two different things.
Seth: Yes.
David: One is why does he start talking about husbands and wives and slaves?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and then how does the appearance of Jesus go against the circumcision party?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Those are, like, the two-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the two things I wanna try to draw lines-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to that I, I'm, I got lost.
Seth: So chapter 2 starts with, "But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine." So he's just talking to a group of false teachers who are claiming ways to be... on how to truly be pure, and then he goes and says, "Okay, let's teach sound doctrine now." What does that look like? It starts in the home. It always starts in the home.
David: Mm.
Seth: Same thing happened in the Book of Timothy, in a lot of the epistles. Like, where does your relationship with God first hit?
David: Mm.
Seth: In your house. So here's what it looks like to be pure in your own home.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he's giving a list of commands there.
David: Is there, is there something there with... 'Cause we talked about circumcision particularly being, um, a way to be distinct.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, you know, circumcision is what made the Jewish people distinct from the neighboring nations.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But it wasn't alone.You know, it also had all these other moral codes to it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it was all the amalgamation of those things that come together to make a distinct holy people of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it seems like some of these people might have been trying to take a shortcut through circumcision to be like, "Cool, did the religious thing."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Now it doesn't matter how I live."
Seth: Potentially.
David: And he's like, "No, if you really wanna be a set-apart people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the circumcision isn't what matters. It's how you conduct yourself in the home that matters."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because Cretans are looking in on your life, and they're like, "Okay, these are the religious people that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... say they follow Jesus. They've done the circumcision thing, but they are just as mean to their wives as I am to mine."
Seth: Right.
David: So-
Seth: It doesn't matter
David: ... it must not be that big of a deal.
Seth: Right.
David: And he's like, "No, if you really wanna be set apart and make a difference in Crete, you have to be set apart in your actions towards-
Seth: Yes
David: ... your family."
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. Yes.
David: That makes sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Cool.
Seth: You answered your own question.
David: And this is what, that's what purity looks like.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. That's cool.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, and then my second question-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is you've got this circumcision party-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they are profiteering off of this lie, like Cretans.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he says he, "Let me just settle the debate for you. Uh, circumcision isn't what matters because the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Draw a straight line between the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the problem of the circumcisers and the appearing of the grace of God.
Seth: How do you become part of God's true family?
David: Circumcision.
Seth: Circumcision.
David: [laughs]
Seth: The circumcision.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: The way that you become a part of the people of Israel, the family of God, is through circumcision.
David: Yeah.
Seth: No.
David: [laughs] No.
Seth: You are made part of the family of God by the grace of God.
David: Mm, not through a work.
Seth: Not through a work.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not through a badge of identity.
David: Right.
Seth: Not through separating yourself from the culture enough. You're brought into the family of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when the grace of God appeared.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's how you were saved.
David: Right.
Seth: That's how you became a part of his family.
David: That's how you became pure.
Seth: That's how you became pure-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... was when Jesus appeared.
David: Right.
Seth: Whatever you think circumcision is accomplishing, no. What you think that circumcision is accomplishing appeared in Jesus.
David: Yeah, it is interesting.
Seth: That-
David: Yeah, he says that... He didn't say Jesus appeared. He said grace appeared-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and brought salvation.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So it's like those are two categories that the people are either striving for or ignoring.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There is no grace in their system.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And salvation is through a completely different path.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you're like, no, the reason why circumcision isn't the answer to belonging and identity and salvation is because it's grace that appeared.
Seth: Right.
David: It's a free gift that appeared.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. I think, I think I get that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then it says that, that grace appeared and trained us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions. Do you think there might have been, like, some kind of link between the cutting off of the flesh in circumcision and the removal of moral unsavoriness? [laughs] Like, where it's like, if you just get circumcised, you'll be a better person.
Seth: Well, I think-
David: Like, just go to church, and you'll be a better person.
Seth: Yeah. Well, it's also like circumcision was the mark of entering into the people of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and really accepting all the laws-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, all the, all the Old Testament laws. So if you wanted to be a moral person, you had to do the first one, which is, like, get circumcised.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, the whole law is the, includes all these moral commands.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But when Jesus came and purified us instead of circumcision-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... he also came teaching a set of moral laws.
David: Right.
Seth: He came teaching too. He came, came training just like the law trained.
David: Mm.
Seth: You come into the community at eight days old, you're circumcised, right?
David: Right, right.
Seth: And then your whole life, you hear the Torah, you hear the teaching on how to renounce ungodliness. And Jesus did the same thing. He came, purified us, and then he taught us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's almost as if, like, these Judaizers aren't wrong in their desire to separate themselves from the ungodliness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of Crete. Like, all Christians should want to separate themselves from the ungodliness of the world.
David: Right.
Seth: But how do you do that?
David: Mm.
Seth: By trumping up particular works to make you feel better and more secure in yourself? How do you do that? Do you do that by being self-righteous in the things that you can do to prove to yourself and others that you're better than them? Or do you trust what Jesus has done for you, and then based on that, you live from that reality?
David: Mm.
Seth: Those are just two different starting places to achieve the same result of being separate from the world around you.
David: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's interesting that he talks about the appearing twice in these-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... two passages. What do, what's going on there? He's got, he's got a, a, a past tense appearing and then a future tense appearing, right?
Seth: Yeah, so he... The grace of God has appeared. I believe what he's talking about here is in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, in his ministry-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in his teaching. And we're also waiting for Jesus to appear again, and he gave a... And he says again, "He gave Him- self to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." I think what he's trying to say here is that when Jesus appears again-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he is going to collect all of his true people together, and he's gonna start a new world, a new creation.
David: Mm.
Seth: Of, of who? Of everybody who's redeemed, been redeemed by Jesus, and who are zealous for good works. And the reason we should look forward to that, and the reason we should live godly l- lives right now-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is so that we'll get that when it comes.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like Jesus Christ is gonna appear again, and he's gonna start a new world and a new kingdom and a new creation, and he's gonna start it with a particular group of people, and you know who they are? Those who have been redeemed and purified by Jesus and have devoted their lives to doing good works.
David: That's interesting. So y- y- one of the thing I'm hearing is, like, these people are wanting, the profiteering circumcisers-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... are wanting to provide people a mark of identity.That okay, get the mark and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when Jesus comes back he's taking the ones who have that mark. And it seems like Paul is saying when Jesus comes back, he's taking the ones who have the mark of good works.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Of a circumcised heart.
Seth: Yep.
David: That they've been purified so they live pure lives.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Not they have defiled consciences, and they're trying to cover it up with pure actions.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's really interesting.
Seth: Isn't it?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It feels like a really subtle difference. Like, well, what does it matter if you're living pure lives?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, if the problem is Cretan immorality-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who cares if I get it by believing I'm better than other people-
David: Right
Seth: ... versus if I care, I do it because Jesus saved me first and I'm living from that reality.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That feels like, well, we're doing the same thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: I mean, I feel like people say that all the time today. I, I can think of friends who live really morally upright lives, you know, some of my neighbors.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we'd look at each other's lives, and they're like, "We live very similar lives. You know-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "we both treat others well. We take care of our neighbors. We love our kids. We, we provide for our families."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, there's like w- maybe he doesn't go to church.
Seth: Right.
David: But, you know, [laughs] that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he might look at my life and be like, "I just don't see a difference."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But what's interesting is even just last night, you know, we were talking and he quickly can point the finger at a moment when someone in a church that he went to once, a homeless person came in, and they were teaching on the Good Samaritan that day.
Seth: Oh, my gosh.
David: And the ushers just kicked the homeless person out.
Seth: Oh, no.
David: And he just saw that irony-
Seth: Right
David: ... and that hypocrisy, and he was like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Those ushers are going straight to hell."
Seth: Right.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I was like, for someone who doesn't really even believe in hell [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or God-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you're very quick to see the problem, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: And-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's trying to live a life that would not go to hell.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And he judges those who, who do
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and so we both live very similar lives. We both would take care of the poor-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, when we're given the opportunity. But we're gonna come at that from two different pathways. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's gonna come at it from the pathway of like, "I don't wanna be a bad person. If there is a hell, I definitely don't wanna go to it."
Seth: I see what you're saying.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: But I would come at it from like, "I was poor. Jesus loved me."
Seth: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
David: "I'm gonna love this guy because I want to."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they're different pathways, but, like, from the outside, like you're saying, they might just look the same.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, why does that make all the world of difference?
Seth: Um, because one assumes that you have been saved, and the other one assumes that you're saving yourself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? Like, I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and that's a really, maybe a really simplistic way of say-
David: Right
Seth: ... of saying it, but like the circumcisers believe they're saving themselves through their actions, and that's leading to self-righteousness.
David: Mm.
Seth: Christians believe they have been saved, and they were just like every, all the Cretans around them. And he's about to say in chapter 3, verse 3 that, "We ourselves were once foolish and disobedient and led astray and slaves to our passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But the goodness and loving kindness of God, our Savior, appeared. He saved us, not because of good works w- we had did, done in righteousness-"
David: Mm
Seth: ... "not because we were trying to be pure by our own lights, but according to his own mercy, and he washed us, and he renewed us, and he made us new creations by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior."
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It does seem like he's going all in on, look, your salvation, your grace, your mercy, your hope, it just appeared.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It didn't come from you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It came from somewhere else.
Seth: Right.
David: It was, there was an epiphany, which is like the Greek word-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's used here, and that's not something you ginned up yourself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It came out of nowhere. [laughs] It came from heaven to earth, and it's like he, he's trying to... It s- looks like he's really trying to separate what God does-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in Jesus and what we do in the flesh.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's really interesting.
Seth: Yeah, I hadn't thought about the use of the word appearing to be the opposite of circumcising.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Like, there, there-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... there's two ways to purify yourself.
David: Mm.
Seth: You could cut something off. You... Or, like, y- and like, really, like in-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in that, in the most visceral sense possible for men [laughs]
David: Right
Seth: ... who wanted to join the party, but, but also like l- cut off that behavior.
David: Right.
Seth: Cut off that action.
David: Yes.
Seth: Cut off that thing. Like, there's like, okay, I could be purified in a sense-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in that way, or I could have my purification appear-
David: Right
Seth: ... given to me for free-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and from that move forward.
David: Yeah, it is such a, a different idea that we think that we can manifest our own purity, salvation, the rights to grace and mercy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the gospel is that all those things have just appeared-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... manifested themselves apart from us.
Seth: In God's kindness, love, and grace.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's an up-down relationship instead of a down-up relationship.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God appears to us to give us grace and mercy and salvation, and he's not waiting on us to do something down here to then earn his favor up there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, that's the biggest thing. It's-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's a complete reversal of who Cretans and most of the world thought the gods or God w- was.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That God was waiting for the right sacrifice of flesh, his pound of flesh, before he would-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... do something. He's like, "No, no, no, no. You don't have to cut something off to make God appear." Right?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: He already appeared to cut something off of you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just so different.
Seth: He's purified you.
David: Yeah, he's already purified you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The thing you've tried to do, he's done.
Seth: By... Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He says in the next line, "So, so that you're, you've been justified by his grace. You've been right, made right by his grace. You've been purified by his grace." Why? "So that we may become heirs to eternal life."
David: Mm.
Seth: He's, he's doing it all. There's two ways to get to heaven. One way is to do everything perfect all the time, always.
David: [laughs]
Seth: The other way is to have heaven come to you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then you live out of that-Grace, love, kindness, that gift that God has given you
David: Right. Because you're pure now.
Seth: Because you're pure.
David: Yeah. He's washed you with the Holy Spirit internally-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which is something-
Seth: Right
David: ... that circumcision can never do. That knife can't cut that deep.
Seth: Right. And what's interesting is, like, Paul's language still doesn't seem justified-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in a sense because why is he calling them la- like, lazy, liars, beasts, insubordinate, empty talkers-
David: Oh
Seth: ... for just believing that I wanna do good work so God will like me?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, so that I'll get to heaven. Like, that feels like such a common misunderstanding of Christianity.
David: Yes.
Seth: I will get to heaven when I do more good things than bad things.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, that's just such a common misunderstanding of Christianity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But Paul goes all in on it.
David: Right.
Seth: This is the doctrine of beasts.
David: Mm.
Seth: I'm like, it, it shocks me still to hear it that... So, like, part of me wonders if I don't understand fully the damage these types of teachers were doing in Paul's day-
David: Right
Seth: ... that, that justify this kind of reaction, or I don't understand God's grace well enough to be scandalized-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... when it's threatened-
David: Degraded. Yeah, threatened. That's the word
Seth: ... even by something really well-meaning.
David: Right. Uh, yeah, I think that's probably one of two things going on there that I think you've put your finger on. One, it's so scandalous because it damages the free gift-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God has done so much to make sure that He gets all the credit and all the glory for our salvation, that it was free, and that we would be purified-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that we might just love Him for that free gift, and anything that we bring to that equation that damages it is horrific because it's covering up the pure gold.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's trying to add silver to the pure gold-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of what God has done.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The other thing that might be way less philosophical and way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... less theological is there is probably just more going on in the culture in Crete with these teachers than we are seeing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Although, Paul does use this type of very loaded language in almost every single letter that he confronts this heresy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I can't get too contextual.
Seth: Right.
David: But they are making money off of preaching circumcision.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, there might even be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this just, like, "Really, you're just a lazy mercenary preacher who's hawking some really cheap gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and making a profit off of it."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, the, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... there could also be the boots on the ground reality of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they actually are, like, beasts and lazy.
Seth: I mean, at one point it says they're ruining homes. I was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Is that hyperbole, or was that actually happening-
David: Right
Seth: ... on, on some level?"
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: If it was actually happening, well, I get it.
David: Hmm. But, yeah, it's interesting. A lot of... Well, okay, so we, we've talked about a bunch of different things.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I feel like everyone listening, and even myself, I found little nuggets of good news throughout it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But before we, like, land any other planes, we've kind of, I think, rounded out enough categories-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to go, like, why is Titus so far [laughs] in the circumcision conversation, and the appearing of Christ conversation, and, uh, we used to be Cretes and now we're pure thing? [laughs] Like, what do you think is the, like, really big good news here for us that might just make us worship on the spot?
Seth: Yeah. It's that eternal life, purity-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... just appears. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: It's like, in God's grace-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... in His kindness, in His love, everything you need for eternal life and to be pure before God and in front of your neighbors just appears.
David: I really love that because... And even, like, thinking about the Greek word epiphany, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It seems hollow, and shallow, and too good to be true, fairy tale-like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for you to put it like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It scandalizes me in the gospel a little bit, and that's usually when I know we're onto something good.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It was that I'm like, "I don't know. That's probably too good of news."
Seth: It just appears. Yeah.
David: It's... But I think that is beautiful, that the gospel, your salvation, your mercy, your way out-
Seth: Mm
David: ... your connection to God, it just was an epiphany one day.
Seth: Mm.
David: It just appeared. You didn't do anything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It just came out of nowhere.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And where it came out of was heaven-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and where it came to was Bethlehem, and what it- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and what [laughs] it did was it died on the cross for you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you didn't do jack. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: It, it just appeared. You... I mean, we weren't even born yet. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And it, He just appeared. I'm thinking, too, about earlier on it says that it appears in the preaching of the Word.
Seth: That was gonna be my final point to you.
David: Okay, good. Go there.
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause I'm like, this is what-
Seth: So, like-
David: ... is happening to us right now. Like, Jesus is doing this to us right now.
Seth: Yeah. So what's the good news? Everything you need just appears.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Trust that.
David: It's so cool.
Seth: Devote yourself to that truth. Insist on that truth, like Paul is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's go... Calling people lazy beasts who-
David: For saying anything else
Seth: ... for, for s- So insist on this truth-
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... Titus. Devote yourself to the good works that that demands-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from the right motivation. But to your point, Paul opens up his letter by saying this. He says... It's a very long sentence, and I'm trying to get away with [laughs] not reading all of it.
David: [laughs] Just do it. You can do it.
Seth: So this is how he opens: "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowing of the truth which accords with godliness," which we've... All these things are been on the line. "In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before [laughs] the ages began and at the proper time manifested in His Word," so appeared through His Word-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... "through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior." It's difficult for me to follow all of that, even as I'm reading it, but-The CliffsNotes is Jesus Christ appeared.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Right.
Seth: In history.
David: Right.
Seth: At a moment in time. He's going to appear again to gather to himself a people devoted to good works and who have been purified-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by Jesus. But Paul understands that when he is preaching, when he starts teaching, Jesus appears again.
David: Mm.
Seth: At the proper time, manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted. That transforming power of Jesus, that purifying power of Jesus, that eternal life-giving power of Jesus appears when Paul, Titus, and godly leaders, these elders that Titus is supposed to appoint, start preaching the truth that God appears, and he commands us to live lives that are godly.
David: Yeah. I mean, I think we've all experienced that. I mean, which... Who, who among us [laughs]
Seth: Right
David: ... have n- weren't saved by a manifestation of Jesus through-
Seth: Right
David: ... preaching?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it could be-
Seth: Right
David: ... at a conference or a church or a church camp or sitting one-on-one with somebody.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But... Or, or sitting with the word-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of God, the Bible. Except for the, the other, like, crazy stories I've heard about-
Seth: Dreams
David: ... dreams.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, Jesus literally appearing, manifesting himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to them still doesn't break this whole idea.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But all of us were saved when we've been preached the Word of God, and something in our hearts happened, and we're like, "Jesus just appeared to me."
Seth: Yeah. How can I hear if no one preaches to me?
David: Right.
Seth: How can I be saved?
David: That's what does it.
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, and that happens in various degrees. Like, some people have really strong experiences-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... spiritually. Others just feel convinced. But the preaching of God's word creates an appearance of Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a manifestation of his person-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which feels almost dangerously sacramental. [laughs]
Seth: No, I-
David: Like-
Seth: ... don't think that's wrong. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the idea that Jesus is where his teaching is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is, like-
David: Jesus is where his teaching is.
Seth: Like, yeah. [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, he's appearing when we talk about the gospel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's appearing to transform people when we talk about his redemption on the cross. Like, that's what happened on the road to Emmaus, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: You have two men talking to the appeared Jesus they don't recognize yet.
David: Right.
Seth: But as he's explaining the gospel story through the Old Testament, their hearts are burning in them.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jesus is bec- is appearing slowly to them as-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... as he's talking to them.
David: Right.
Seth: And well, just imagine also the encouragement that is to Titus as a pastor-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of a church in a culture that's just brutally immoral. I'm surrounded by people that are lazy gluttons a- and drunks and beasts, but Jesus is where the preaching is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if I keep teaching that Jesus has come, all purity is found in him, eternal life is found in him-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that changes the culture. That changes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the Cretans. I can rest there.
David: Yeah, I think this, like, hits home with me really heavily when I think about how in line this is with my motivation for wanting to start Spoken Gospel in the first place.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That I was convinced, just like Paul is here, that if you're gonna fight this kind of stuff, the impure living, the false doctrine-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... the mismanagement of the household, all this stuff, what you need is you need to remember that Jesus appeared to bring you grace and salvation, and he's going to appear again when he saves you. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... those, that is the gospel, and it will change you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then what he said at the beginning is every time you hear the gospel through the preached word, Jesus appears to you again.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so if we are only changed by beholding Jesus in the gospel, then what we're doing here by opening up Titus and talking about Jesus, what you're doing now, listener, as you're sitting in your car or on a run-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or whatever, listening to this podcast and hearing the gospel, is you're encountering the person of Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that will change and sa- and safeguard your heart. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's amazing to me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think I've always thought about it, like, when I hear the gospel now, it throws me backwards-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into the completed work on the cross, or forward-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into the, the return of Jesus, or even presently upward into Jesus interceding for me at the right hand of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It always throws me somewhere else other than where I am.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what might be being said here, which I'm still just wrestling with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is when I preach the gospel to myself or when the Word of God preaches it to me, when I meditate on it, when you, as a friend, speak the gospel over me, Jesus is there. Jesus is where his word is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that just, like, kind of changes-
Seth: Well, what did-
David: ... the game for me.
Seth: Well, what did Jesus say to his... W- what was Jesus' last words to his disciples? Um-
David: Go into all the-
Seth: "Go into all the world teaching."
David: Right. There's my teaching.
Seth: "To obey my commands."
David: Right.
Seth: "And I will be with you always."
David: Jesus is where his word is. [laughs]
Seth: Jesus is where his teaching is.
David: Yeah. I mean, that, that makes a ton of sense, too, with h- why he talks about the Holy Spirit here and why we're able to, to think about, like, when we read the word, we're, we're being with God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's time with God when I go read the Bible-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the Holy Spirit speaks to me. It's his inspired word, and it's like, well, yeah, it, where, where the Word of God is, Jesus is there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it seems a little mystical or sacramental-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but there's something really beautiful about that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that I, I really wrestle with.
Seth: I mean, what's more mystical than God appearing?
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: You know? I mean, like-
David: An epiphany of God.
Seth: It's mystical in one sense, but it's also like, what more earthy way do you want it?
David: Right.
Seth: I got words on a page, and Jesus shows up.
David: Right. That's very soily, very-
Seth: I, I, I spoke-
David: ... boots on the ground
Seth: ... a couple words in front of a church, and then God was there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I mean, yeah, sure, it's-
David: It, it sounds mystical, but it's actually very practical.
Seth: It's very practical. I don't have to dream in a cave.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I can just talk and open up a book and read some words or write some words.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Jesus is there as I preach to myself or preach to others or talk about him, and what does he do? He redeems.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He saves. He transforms. He purifies.
David: That's good. The gospel has appeared.
Seth: The gospel has appeared.
David: Okay. Well, that's Titus.
Seth: That's Titus.
David: That's awesome. Well, thanks for that, Seth, and thank you guys for listening. Um, it's been, it's been really fun in, in this one, so we will, uh, we'll see you next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
