David: [upbeat music] The reason why God wants to be number one is not 'cause he's power hungry. It's because-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... he's the best thing.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And to put anything above him-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... would be to put something less good-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as the center of your reality.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: And if you point the compass of your universe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... towards something that's less than the ultimate good, you're gonna get a broken life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God's like, "I want to be number one because it will lead to your flourishing happiness, joy."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not because I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, like, control you, but because-
Seth: Right
David: ... I want what's best for you.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We're starting a new book today, the book of Zephaniah.
Seth: Zephaniah.
David: Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I've been calling it Zechariah for the last, like, three weeks. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: And I keep getting Zephaniah and Zechariah mixed up, but it is Zephaniah.
David: This is the one with the PH.
Seth: The PH in it.
David: Okay. So what, what has you generally excited or scared or what's your vibe with Zephaniah?
Seth: What, what's... I mean, I'm very excited for the second podcast we'll do in the series, in which we'll talk about God singing over us.
David: Oh, I want to go to there.
Seth: Us being quieted by his love.
David: That sounds nice.
Seth: Uh, but before we get there, we have to talk about the inevitable and unavoidable destruction-
David: Oh, my God
Seth: ... that is coming towards God's people, that no amount of obedience can overturn. [laughs]
David: Wow.
Seth: So that's, that's what's happening-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in Zephaniah 1 and 2. And the good news, though, that we'll talk about today is the way in which God hides his people, even from his own anger.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's actually what Zephaniah's name means. Zephaniah's name-
David: Oh
Seth: ... means hidden.
David: The hidden.
Seth: The hidden one.
David: The hidden one.
Seth: Or the hider.
David: Oh.
Seth: And so he plays with his own name, and the hope of God's people is Zephaniah, that God will hide.
David: Man, I really wish that, like, our books... 'Cause this has happened with almost every minor prophet.
Seth: It really has, yeah.
David: Where it's like, oh, the main point of the book is the, the dude's name.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] It's like, it makes... Oh, it's so helpful. [laughs]
David: And it's like, I just wish that Zephaniah was called The Hider.
Seth: The Hider.
David: The Hidden One.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like, okay, everyone turn to The Hidden One, chapter one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, oh, that, that'd be really helpful.
Seth: That would be really helpful. [laughs]
David: And it would clear up the Zephaniah-Zechariah thing.
Seth: So what's happening in Zephaniah? Yeah, yeah, it would be, 'cause I wouldn't call it The Hidden One.
David: [laughs] Oh, okay. Cool. So today is the inevitable destruction of God's people.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But the good news that he can still hide you.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Okay. So get me into this book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where are we in the h- history of Israel? What's Zephaniah's deal? What's going on?
Seth: Well, thankfully, verse, chapter one, verse one gives us a genealogy-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which is everybody's favorite, but it gives us all the historical clues we need.
David: It really helps 'cause what, what was the book we did that, like, had none? It was, uh...
Seth: Uh, there are a lot. There are-
David: Oh, oh, Malachi had none.
Seth: Malachi had none.
David: None.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah, we were just like, it's, like, a catchall.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: It was a summary of the law and the prophets.
David: And the prophets. Okay. But Zephaniah does not leave us with that problem.
Seth: It does not.
David: Okay.
Seth: Uh, "The word Lord came to Zephaniah, the son of Cushi, son of Gedaliah, son of Amariah, son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah."
David: Nice.
Seth: So the two names that will get us most in the book of Zephaniah are the names Hezekiah and Josiah.
David: Yes.
Seth: He was the great-great-grandson of King Hezekiah from the book of 2 Kings 19 and 20. Hezekiah was one of Israel's few good kings, and he was a reformer.
David: Mm.
Seth: He takes out a whole bunch of idols in Israel's land. He brings back a level of faithfulness to the temple and worshiping God in the right way. However, his life ends with this announcement that eventually Babylon's gonna come and destroy Israel, um, entirely.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because what Hezekiah does is he invites envoys, emissaries from Babylon into the temple-
David: Oh
Seth: ... to view all the gold of the temple, and-
David: Right
Seth: ... this was, in his mind, probably a political move to curry some sort of trust between him and Babylon.
David: But God saw that as, like, pride.
Seth: But God saw that as him trying to hedge his bets-
David: Mm
Seth: ... trusting Babylon in addition to Yahweh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to protect Israel, and said, "Because you decided to trust Babylon, by Babylon you will be destroyed."
David: Okay.
Seth: So that doesn't happen, though.
David: Right.
Seth: Not really until after Josiah, so.
David: Okay. And how far apart were Hezekiah and Josiah? They weren't, like, immediate successors of one another.
Seth: That's n- that's right. There was, uh, Hezekiah, and then there was Manasseh, one of the most evil kings in Israel's history.
David: Rock on.
Seth: Followed by Amnon, his son, followed by Josiah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So not too far removed.
David: So you have Hezekiah, a reformer, but kind of a mixed bag. He kind of falls in the end.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Then there's a season of really, really bad kings.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then Josiah comes, who's another reformer-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that we'll probably talk about.
Seth: Yep, we will.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes.
David: But then after that.
Seth: Right. And Josiah, interestingly, like Hezekiah, is a reformer.
David: Right.
Seth: And Josiah's probably the most famous, one of the most famous kings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He-
David: He's the one who finds the, the Torah, the Old Testament, and brings revival to the people of God.
Seth: Right. He is a king when he's eight years old. I sang a Bible song about him.
David: Eight... You did?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't know a Josiah Bible-
Seth: And he became-
David: Oh
Seth: ... became a king when he was just eight years old. You don't know that song?
David: No.
Seth: I, I sang songs about how [laughs] he was-
David: Man
Seth: ... became a king when he was eight years old.
David: I did not have a Josiah Bible song.
Seth: Oh. Anyway, so he becomes king when he's eight years old. By his 18th year in power, he discovers that there's a long-lost copy of the law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... hidden in the walls of the temple. He reads it, breaks down crying, realizing how far they've fallen-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... from God's commands, and he institutes this sweeping reforms, kicks out the idols of Baal out of the temple. He stops m- Molech worship, which is the child sacrifice religion.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: He stops all this stuff.Cleans out God's temple, is clearing all the priests of everything they were doing wrong, and then the prophetess Huldah comes up to him and says, "Josiah, no matter what you do, you will not stop Babylon's coming destruction."
David: My gosh.
Seth: And d- which is really crazy to me that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all this obedience means nothing because it cannot overturn the centuries of atrocities that have c- occurred before Josiah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or overturn the blatant evil of Manasseh. That was his, you know, almost his two generations previous-
David: Right
Seth: ... predecessor. Um, and it's really kind of a sobering moment to think that no matter how much goodness that Josiah accomplishes in his lifetime, it will eventually lead to Babylon coming to destroy Israel.
David: So Zephaniah is prophesying in a time where God's really doubling down on the inevitability and inescapable nature-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of God's punishment that's coming for-
Seth: Right
David: ... Israel? Nor- northern or southern Israel?
Seth: Southern Israel.
David: Southern, southern Judah.
Seth: Judah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Because of not necessarily Hezekiah and Josiah-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... but in spite of them. Because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the centuries of evil that have been done.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: God's like, "I've been long suffering, I've been patient, I've been slow to anger-
Seth: Yep
David: ... but the piper's gonna be paid no matter what."
Seth: That's right. And so it's interesting to think about Zephaniah living during the time of Josiah's reforms.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So Zephaniah's prophecies here are meant to encourage people to return back to the ways of Yahweh, return back to the ways of Hezekiah and David-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and people before him, knowing full well that it will do nothing to stop Babylon from coming.
David: Mm.
Seth: And at the same time, that even while Josiah is purging Israel of all of its evil actors and its corrupt priests, many of them are still in power, and so a lot of the evil rulers of Israel get call-outs in the Book of Zephaniah because these are precisely the people Josiah is taking out during his time in office.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's a really interest- it's like a politically, religiously, really interesting time. And then even, like, spiritually, how would I feel about being commanded to keep a Torah, a book of laws I know will do nothing to improve my life?
David: Mm.
Seth: I-
David: Is that, is that entirely true, or are you burying the lead a little bit?
Seth: How so?
David: Uh, well, 'cause you said the, the, there's good news that God will hide the humble.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's like, he-
Seth: That's right
David: ... there's a difference between, "Oh, fine, I'll spare all of Judah"-
Seth: That's right
David: ... w- and I, "I'll spare you."
Seth: Well, what's interesting is that z- this happens before Babylon's invasion.
David: Right.
Seth: Right. So what's gonna happen is some people in Israel will be humbled.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Some people will respond appropriately to Zephaniah's call-
David: Right
Seth: ... to repent and to do the right thing. However, that won't stop Babylon from coming.
David: Right.
Seth: It won't stop the destruction of the temple.
David: No.
Seth: It won't stop them losing their homeland. Many of them will be exiled to a foreign country.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Many of them will die before that exile is ever over.
David: Right.
Seth: And only the youngest of the young might even be old enough to see their return to the land.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And even once they re- and those that do return to the land, after knowing what it was like beforehand, weep that the restoration of Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... is nothing like it was before. So it's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... well, that's kind of a heavy place within Israel's history to occupy, um-
David: Faithfulness [laughs]
Seth: Uh, yeah, faithfulness, knowing that the, the kingdom will never be like it, what it once was.
David: Right. Okay. Does Zephaniah pick up on any of that tension himself, or is that all, like, inferred from the situation?
Seth: Uh, what do you mean?
David: Like, is Zephaniah saying like, "Hey, guys, I know it won't matter, but you should obey anyway" [laughs]?
Seth: He kind of... Yeah, kind of [laughs].
David: Okay, okay [laughs].
Seth: Which we should just get into. Yeah. Okay. So chapter one, verse two. "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the Lord. And then he says this: "I will sweep away man and beast, the birds of the heaven, the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth."
David: Mm.
Seth: And if you notice, what's interesting about that, that's a reversal of the creation account.
David: Yes.
Seth: In creation, those things are, come into existence the other way around.
David: Right.
Seth: And now they're being broken-
David: Broken down
Seth: ... the other way around.
David: There's uncreation coming.
Seth: Yeah. God's coming to uncreate the world, and in particular, "I will stretch out my hand against Judah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... his people, against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And I will cut off from this place the remnant of Baal and the name of the idolatrous priests, along with the priests who bow down on the roofs to the hosts of heaven and who bow down and swear to the Lord." To swear to the Lord, yet also swear to Molech as well.
David: Mm.
Seth: So he's coming to do what? He's coming to wipe out all the evil and corrupt idolatrous practices of Jerusalem-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and in particular in these verses, the priests of God's people.
David: It's interesting how similar this seems to me to the flood story.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: You should think that.
David: Okay. Yeah, it seems very... 'Cause it's like there's so much pervasive evil-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the world that the only way to get rid of it is to just clean the whole thing. And now idolatry and false god worship and wickedness has become so pervasive throughout Judah that there's no hope for it, that it has to be completely wiped out.
Seth: That's right.
David: So really the Babylonian armies aren't necessarily just coming to judge the temple because the priests and the kings are bad, but they're coming as a cleansing flood to take away the false gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, to actually rid the land-
Seth: Oh, right
David: ... of evil.
Seth: Right, right.
David: I've never viewed... I've only ever viewed Ba- Babylon coming into Israel as punishment.
Seth: Right.
David: Not as cleansing. Not as like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Let me get rid of the idolatry.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Let me wipe it clean."
Seth: Yes.
David: I've never seen it like that before.
Seth: Zephaniah definitely picks up on that idea in chapter three-
David: Okay
Seth: ... where it's this judgment that happensTo Israel during this time is for its purification
David: Mm.
Seth: To rid the land of all evil so that the humble can inherit the purified land.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The land is full of evil and idolatry and corruption and whatever else, murder-
David: Right
Seth: ... whatever else has caused God's punishment of sending Babylon.
David: Okay.
Seth: All that's gonna be gone. Why? So that the humble can inherit the earth and come back and rebuild the land the way it was meant to be.
David: Right, on a pure foundation.
Seth: On a pure foundation.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is there anything else going on with the flood creation stuff here that we should be attuned to?
Seth: Except the fact that this is kind of supposed to signal a cataclysmic end to Israel as they know it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Israel thought they would be God's chosen people forever, but God's saying, "No, I'm tearing down this kingdom. I'm tearing down this temple-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and just as thoroughly as I created the world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that's how thoroughly I will tear down what you've built."
David: Right, just as that was a beginning, this will be an end.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. And then he escalates-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... which while he's, I think-
David: How, how can you escalate? [laughs]
Seth: I, I don't, it's like, ugh, it, I don't know you can escalate from there, but this one turns my stomach a little bit.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: In verse 7, he says, "Be silent before the Lord the day the Lord's in the earth. The Lord has prepared a sacrifice, and He has consecrated his guests. And on that day of the Lord's sacrifice, I will punish the officials and the king's sons and all who array themselves in foreign attire. On that day, I will punish everyone who leaps over the threshold and those who fill their master's house with violence and fraud." A couple interesting little things here. One, the leaders of God's people are full of violence and fraud.
David: Right.
Seth: That one feels pretty accurate. I will punish those that leap over the threshold. Weird.
David: I don't know what that means.
Seth: Nobody... It's a hard one. It's, goes back to 1 Samuel 5.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's when the Ark of the Covenant was stolen by the Philistines.
David: Yes. Is that the tumors and rats moment?
Seth: Yeah, that's tumors and rats moment.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it gets passed around all these different Philistine towns, and every time it's in one of them, plagues start breaking out.
David: Right.
Seth: That's why they keep passing it along.
David: Hot potato with the ark.
Seth: Hot potato with the Ark of the Covenant until one day it's put into the temple of Dagon.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And while the Ark of the Covenant's in the temple of Dagon, Dagon falls over.
David: And what happened to the gods of the Canaanites? They gone.
Seth: They gone. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: They gone. And his hands break off, his head falls off, and the detail we're given is that his head falls in the threshold of the temple of Dagon.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then we're given a little narrative aside in 1 Samuel 5 that that's why the priests of Dagon jump over the threshold-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of the temple of Dagon to this day.
David: So is this saying, Zephaniah saying that Dagon worship is back?
Seth: Either he's saying Dagon worship is back in the temple, so they've set up a, an idol to Dagon in the temple-
David: And they're recreating that old rite
Seth: ... and they are, right, they are taking that superstition and bringing it into worship at the temple, which would be crazy.
David: Crazy.
Seth: Or they also talk about foreign attire, those who array themselves in foreign attire.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: That's probably a reference to foreign priestly attire.
David: Ah.
Seth: So, like, they're wearing the robes of gods, uh, that are supposed to be worn by priests to other gods-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but doing it in the temple.
David: Dang.
Seth: And is, they're adopting all the religious practices.
David: So there's a, a whole bunch of syncretism happening here-
Seth: That's right
David: ... where they're blending the religions, the practices, the beliefs of other gods and other sects-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... into Yahweh's temple-
Seth: That's right
David: ... thinking that they could somehow curry favor of all of them instead of-
Seth: That's right
David: ... just trusting God alone.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And what's fascinating here is God says he'll punish these people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But he also said, "I'm gonna prepare a sacrifice."
David: Okay.
Seth: So what I think he's saying is, "Okay, I'm gonna destroy all people by making a sacrifice out of my people."
David: So he's not making a sacrifice for his people.
Seth: Which is what you would expect.
David: People are the sacrifice.
Seth: And to whom? I have consecrated his guests. He has consecrated a series of guests, and who is the guest that will feast on the body of corrupt Israel?
David: Babylon?
Seth: Babylon.
David: Ooh.
Seth: God is making a sacrifice out of his people for Babylon. [laughs]
David: Whoa.
Seth: I, [laughs] so that's why I was like, I think it escalates.
David: I see why your stomach's turning a little bit. [laughs]
Seth: Right, right. It's like, I'm like, that is viscerally disgusting-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but also just terrifying to imagine being h- being so thoroughly corrupted by my syncretism that God says, "I will make a sacrifice out of you to the pe- to Babylon, the people your fathers have historically tried to curry favor with to protect you from."
David: Mm.
Seth: No.
David: They're gonna eat you alive.
Seth: They're gonna eat you alive.
David: Gosh.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: Which is interesting to keep in mind that Zephaniah's ministry is presumably to get people to return-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and follow the Torah as Josiah the king is directing his people to.
David: Right.
Seth: And in one sense, he's directing this against all the leaders that Josiah is bringing down. Josiah's gonna come and-
David: Right
Seth: ... clear you out, guys, and if not him, then Babylon.
David: And I guess, I mean, I would wanna say maybe if I was in Zephaniah's time, I would wanna say that this is some kind of theological editorializing, or he's being hyperbolic, and he's like, you know, fire and brimstone to scare them straight kinda thing.
Seth: Right.
David: But we know that-
Seth: This actually happened
David: ... this, it, it did happen, and it was, it's been prophesied multiple times-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that Babylon was coming.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, yes, it's probably a shocking metaphor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, like, Babylonians aren't coming to eat them. They're not cannibals.
Seth: No.
David: You know, so that's not what's happening here. But pictorially, metaphorically, that is what's going to occur.
Seth: Right.
David: But it is put in such a visceral way that it's like you would think if you were receiving this prophecy, you'd be like, "Wake up, man. The Ninevites of Jonah's day got a way chiller sermon than that, and-
Seth: Right
David: ... they turned around."
Seth: That's right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And Jonah will get a mention not too far from that.
David: Oh, wait, are you serious?
Seth: Yeah, [laughs] he will.
David: I did not know that. [laughs] Okay.
Seth: Yeah, he's gonna get a mention not too far from that.
David: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
Seth: In that exact point. Jonah's like, "People repented w- with, on less-
David: Oh, my gosh
Seth: ... and you didn't."
David: I'm sniffing it out.
Seth: You're now... You're sniffing it out.
David: [laughs]
Seth: You, you've got your Bible hat on.
David: [laughs]
Seth: You got your Bible nerd hat on. It's coming out. He continues, "Basically, on that day," declares the Lord, "a wail will be heard throughout the city, and I will punish all the traitors," presumably those, kinda like the traitors in the temple during Jesus's day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... those making a profit off of those trying to worship.But he will punish all those people, and all the complacent who say in their heart, "The Lord w-will not do good, and he will not do evil."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I.e., saying, "I'm living as a functional atheist."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "God isn't gonna do anything either way. God doesn't really care."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Everybody like this will, uh, no longer be alive, will be taken away on that day. And then verse 13, he says this, "Though they will build houses, they will not inhabit them. Though they plant vineyards, they shall not drink wine from them." This is a reverse of the Book of Deuteronomy. So remember-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... Zephaniah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... living in the time when the Scroll of Deuteronomy was just rediscovered.
David: Okay. Yes.
Seth: And the promise God has given his people is that, "If you obey my commands, you'll live in the land forever, and you'll drink your own wine, you'll eat the grapes from your own vine-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "and you're gonna have a great time." But no, none of that's gonna happen.
David: Mm. Th- that helps. Literally, the next question I was gonna ask was what is the, I don't know, argumentative basis that God is using against Israel? Like, is it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... covenant? Is it Torah obedience? Is it generally you guys are just, you guys just suck? You know [laughs] like-
Seth: Right, right, right. [laughs]
David: Like, like it's, this is such visceral language.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we know God is good, just, long-suffering, kind.
Seth: Mm.
David: So there has to have been some really intense infraction and-
Seth: That's right
David: ... uh, that, that necessitates this kind of punishment. So I know other ones, you know, other, other minor prophets, they, they might be built around law code or covenant, or they're like a court case, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or like a marriage. Y- there, there's a framing device.
Seth: That's right.
David: What's the framing device for Zephaniah? Like, what have they broken that's, that's determined that this punishment is gonna come with such ferocity?
Seth: Yeah. I mean, it's the crimes of Manasseh. So that, that king between Hezekiah-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and Josiah.
David: Right, yes.
Seth: So Hezekiah, you know, does this thing with Babylon. He's prophesied Babylon's gonna come and take away everything you have.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Manasseh comes on the scene, and he is, puts all these idols into the temple of Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's the one in this era of history driving the idolatrous syncretistic practices of Israel forward. He's murdering people on a, like a scale not really seen before [laughs] in Israel's history. Like-
David: Like sacrificing people to the gods, or-
Seth: He's doing that, and then he's just being a bad king.
David: Okay.
Seth: Like, he's just like a bad person.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think it's 2 Chronicles that describes him as, like presiding over a city of blood. Like, that's the type of leader that he is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then obviously, the law is not found anywhere during this time. And presumably, even during Hezekiah's day, did not necessarily have access to the law and did not know the full extent to which they were breaking God's commands.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So when Josiah finally finds it-
David: That's why he's crying
Seth: ... that's why he's crying. He's like, "We have failed the covenant so drastically."
David: Mm.
Seth: "What's going to happen to us?" And so he's like, "Let's do everything we can to fix it," which is why it's pretty sobering for Huldah to say, the prophetess to say-
David: Yeah, "There's nothing you can do."
Seth: "There's nothing you can do. God prophesied that this would actually happen-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "that you guys would get worse and worse over time, and that the ultimate result would be you leaving in exile. And that time has come."
David: So would you say for Z- Zephaniah, the chief problem is idolatry?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or is it covenant breaking? I know they're very, very similar, but-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... does he have something at the center of his bullseye?
Seth: Well, it's interesting because Israel is not the only people he's gonna call out.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So we're about to get a whole list of nations that will be de- also be destroyed by Babylon [laughs] as well.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, and, and the book begins, as you remember, "I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth."
David: Right. It's very to-
Seth: So the-
David: ... total
Seth: ... yes, that's right. There's a totalizing effect.
David: Wow.
Seth: Even the last words here, verse 17, "I will bring distress on mankind-
David: Right
Seth: ... so that they shall walk like the blind. All the earth will be consumed in the fire of my jealousy. And I will make a, a full and sudden end to all the inhabitants of the earth." So there is... In, in one sense, I do believe that's actually a direct reference to Israel and those globalizing, those universal words are supposed to indicate the universal punishment that will come towards Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But we're about to expand the horizon of God's judgment against the nations of the world as well for their pride, presumably at Babylon's hands as well. So it, there is a sense of covenant breaking-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to your point. Like, why is God doing this? Well-
David: Right
Seth: ... they've broken the covenant.
David: He told them what would happen if they broke the covenant.
Seth: Right. But in a more global sense, he's judging pride on a global scale as well.
David: Mm. [gentle music] All right, Seth, so let's talk about pride.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: Hope you're not, I hope you're not too proud to have this conversation.
Seth: I, I hope... I mean, I probably am. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, I probably am. Yeah, chapter two opens, it s- transitions from talking about Israel's failure, in large part without naming it as such, like their failure to obey the covenant and the inevitable day of destruction coming to them by Babylon. Interestingly, though, I didn't say this at the first part, Babylon's never mentioned.
David: Oh, in all of Zephaniah?
Seth: I... No, in chapter one he's never mentioned.
David: Okay.
Seth: But I actually don't think he's mentioned, uh, Babylon's mentioned at all in Zephaniah.
David: Is it because God is wanting to make sure they know it's him?
Seth: That's right.
David: Being the punishment.
Seth: I think he wants to foreground his responsibility in coming to execute justice.
David: Right. 'Cause for them, it could just look like war games.
Seth: That's right. It could.
David: And it's, "Oh man, Babylon's big and strong, and they want our stuff."
Seth: That's right.
David: He's like, "No, no, no. That's me. That's me."
Seth: Okay.
David: "I'm coming to do this."
Seth: That makes sense.
David: Yeah. Chapter two.
Seth: So gather together. Yes, gather together, O shameless nation. So we're moving outside of Israel here, but before the decreeTakes effect before the day passes away like chaff, before there comes upon you the burning anger of the Lord, before-
David: So you're saying, "Listen up everybody, before this happens."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Before... And these... And we haven't introduced this li- idea yet, but the day of the Lord-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... is, it's a pretty important category for a lot of the minor prophets.
David: Right.
Seth: Also, for Zephaniah. This day when he comes and judges Israel for their evil and their hypocrisy and their idolatry, he calls it the day of the Lord.
David: Mm.
Seth: Or the day of fire, a day of burning anger.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that day of the Lord, that day of burning anger is also coming on the world itself and proud nations around them. And so continue. "Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and who do justice, seek righteousness, and seek humility, and perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the Lord's anger."
David: Mm.
Seth: That's that hidden language-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we've been talking about previously.
David: You might be Zephaniah-ed.
Seth: That you might be a Zephaniah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That you might be a hidden one on the day of the Lord's anger. And this is important because this is the hope. We haven't had any hope so far.
David: Right.
Seth: Israel's been given no opportunity, no even inkling that there could be somebody left behind.
David: Right.
Seth: But now that we've transitioned out to the broader world, we're saying, "No, no, this critique is actually only for the proud."
David: Okay.
Seth: There is a humble few among you-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that if they remain faithful, will be hidden from the day of God's just and burning anger.
David: Okay. Which that helps, 'cause I was gonna ask the whole question of, man, how come Manasseh gets to determine the fate of a bunch of people?
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know. But-
Seth: That's right
David: ... there's a way-
Seth: Isn't there somebody, isn't there one person that's innocent in all Israel, right?
David: Yeah. Who doesn't deserve to be swept away? It's kinda, I kinda wa- like, wanna play Abraham with Sodom here. I'm like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Come on, God, for 10 people?" You know?
Seth: Right.
David: But he's like, "No, even for one person, I'm still gonna wipe out Israel."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "But I'm now providing that one person, or those 10 people, those 100 people, those 10,000 people, whatever the number is, a way-
Seth: A way to be hidden
David: ... a way to be hidden, and that pathway is humility."
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay?
Seth: That's right. Yes, hidden in humility. And then he starts listing cities. Gaza will be deserted. Ashkelon will become a desolation. Ashdod's people will be driven out at noon. Ekron will be uprooted.
David: Are these, like, immediate neighbors to Israel?
Seth: Those are all Philistine cities.
David: Okay.
Seth: Which is interesting, that's where that idea of, like, jumping over the-
David: Oh, right, all came from
Seth: ... uh, the threshold came from, yeah. Uh, yes, and these would be near neighbors to Israel. "Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoasts, you nation of the Cherethites. You, O Canaan, land of the Philistines. O you on the seacoast, you will turn into pasture land with meadows for shepherds and folds for flocks. The seacoast shall become the possession of the remnant of the house of Judah, and there they will graze." So it continues through a lot of chapter two, and we'll just stop here for now, is this idea that these proud nations, these seacoast nations, these civilizational centers on the seacoast, commanding the trading routes of the Mediterranean, will all fall. And the humble of the land will inherit the ruined city and make their new homes in the pasture lands they leave behind.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So it's like, there's a lot kinda going on, like, on a, like a literary, artistic level.
David: Mm.
Seth: You have these civilizational centers, these idolatry, these centers of idolatry-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that will all be razed to the ground, turned to ruins, and then the humble of the land will inherit them like shepherds would inherit a flock. And they'll live in this rural, peaceful reality where all the buildings of pride have been totally flattened.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we, we have that reference in chapter one, two, there'll be no more traders anymore.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: These are-
David: Just sheep
Seth: ... th- right. Yeah, they're just sheep.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Just sheep and shepherds living a life of peace.
David: Huh.
Seth: Not the frenetic and proud and potentially corrupt life of the cities. Like there's this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... rural sense to the peaceful, humble inheritance God's people will have.
David: There's this Wendell Berry thing going on right here. [laughs]
Seth: This Wendell Berry thing that I'm getting super excited about right now. Uh, but yes, that's the hope.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That once the civiliza- the proud civilizations are gone, the humble will inherit the land and live in it in peace.
David: Okay. So talk to me then about these two categories-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of pride and humility, right? Because those are gigantic, open categories that people can put whatever they want in.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, pride, you're a jerk. Humble, you're, you're sheepish, and, like, you don't have any opinions.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: I had the same question reading through this.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because Zephaniah seems to understand that you know what pride-
David: Means
Seth: ... and humility means.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, in verse eight, he critiques Moab and the Ammonites because they have taunted God's people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and have made boasts against their territory. Which means for Zephaniah, he believes the sin of pride in Moab and Ammon is their presumptuous attitude towards the nation of Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: They believe that they are owed the nation of Israel, and that they can take it by military force-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in some sense.
David: Yep.
Seth: Or they say that, "Your god's not in there, and your god's not very strong." These things are elements of pride. Presuming to have land that's not your own, dismissing the God of Israel as a powerful deity that deserves respect, that's pride. And, like, contextually, like, really narrowly contextually-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... that's one thing that we're told.
David: What about for the Israelites? Like, what would you say, for Zephaniah, what would be Israel's example of pride?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, how... 'Cause obviously they did have the land, and-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... they did believe in God. [laughs] But so it has to be a little different than that-
Seth: That's right
David: ... example.
Seth: Well, we've been told already that they're building false idols.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Right? They're putting up Baal and Molech statues and worshiping other gods, sacrificing their own children in the temple of the one God. Idolatry is a form of pride-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in this particular sense. But honestly, this was one of the struggles that I had when I was reading. It seemed like pride and humility were built-out categories without giving me a whole bunch to go off of.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Except some, like, proud nations who have corrupt trading practices.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then also Israel, who has been idolatrous.
David: Right.
Seth: And who has imported the practices of other religions into their worship of the one true God. And these are my primary examples of-
David: A pride. There seems to be at least some overlap between those two definitions you've given of those outside Israel and inside Israel of disregarding God's authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yep.
David: That God said, "I am the Lord your God. Here are the laws. You shall have no other gods before me." And they're like, "Ah, nevermind. We'll put some other gods in here." And then those outside, they're like, "Oh yeah, that's Yahweh's territory, but meh, we're just gonna take it."
Seth: Exactly.
David: "I think it belongs to us."
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're disregarding God's authority.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They believe that they have a say where God says that He has the say.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so they're putting their own opinions, thoughts, definitions of right and wrong over Yahweh's. And so it's like elevating human thought and opinions over what God has revealed and said and declared.
Seth: Yeah. I think that's pretty, a pretty good base-level definition of pride, and it works for both Israel and the nations because, like Israel, they had a law at one point in time, and even though it was lost, they did have some sense of what constituted faithful service to God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they were abandoning it in favor of the worship of other gods.
David: Right.
Seth: And then the other nations of the world have never really honored God in that way-
David: Right
Seth: ... and have chosen their own way. They have opportunities to come to Israel. They have opportunities to worship Israel's God. There's a whole bunch of people that are not Jewish who are worshipers of the true God in the Bible, but they've not chosen that path and have-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... instead built civilizational centers built around money and trading and power rather than humility, humility towards the God of Israel.
David: Yeah. So I think we've talked about, like, pride as it comes... 'Cause if we use love God and love neighbor as the law grid-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for understanding pride and humility, we've addressed love God.
Seth: Right.
David: And we're like the pri-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That kind of pride does not love God well. It says that I'm smarter than God, and I know more than Him, so you're not loving God. But then there's also hints in Zephaniah of the love neighbor problem-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where there's not justice, and there's problems with the traders, and there's these economic issues-
Seth: That's right
David: ... at stake. They're killing their children, and-
Seth: Yep, that's right
David: ... and people. And so it's like they're also lording over their neighbors and, uh, with evil instead of love.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, that's right.
David: And so that kind of, that pride of, I don't know what you wanna call it, like the, the presumption that I have the right to hurt someone else-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or to preference myself over someone else-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the other kind of pride maybe.
Seth: Right, and that's, and that's probably just a good catego- when we talk about God's laws or honoring God, it's like that's exactly what it is. That means to love God and to love neighbor, and to do, refuse to do either of those things isn't just not loving God and not loving your neighbor. It's an act of pride-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as well. It's refusing to humble yourself to the wisdom and necessity of loving God and loving-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... your neighbor, and if you choose to do otherwise, that invites the justice of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... against you.
David: And so then the opposite would be humility.
Seth: Right.
David: How do you love God in humility? Well, you submit to what he said.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Humble yourself under-
Seth: That's right
David: ... what, what he said. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt. Y'all should have no other gods before me."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Okay, I can submit to that. I'll, I'll serve no other gods. I'll trust you alone. Uh, and then for my neighbor, how do I, how do you humble yourself to your neighbor? Well, you obey the commands that God gave you on how to love your neighbor well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? You-
Seth: That's right.
David: You help them out. [laughs]
Seth: That's right.
David: You treat them well. You don't covet their wife. You don't steal from them. You don't murder them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, pretty simple things, but-
Seth: Yep
David: ... you know?
Seth: Right.
David: So that makes sense. I think we're talking about God's laws for Himself and for others, and pride is elevating yourself above them, saying, "You know better, and you can set your own definitions of right and wrong."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Humility is saying, "I don't know better, and I'm gonna obey what God has said is right and wrong."
Seth: Here's a pre- a pretty visceral example of that in verse 15. So the last several verses are devoted to Nineveh, the capital of the Assyrian Empire.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And verse 15 says this: "This is the exultant city," Nineveh, "that lives securely and said in her heart, 'I am'" And that's actually the covenant name of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: "I am, and there is no one else."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there's this, like, cultu- the, and before this verse, it talks about it's, like, cultural power and cultural significance. So it's like to, to have that position, like where I am the ultimate authority of my life.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I am the center of either the civilizational, cultural, or spiritual universe.
David: Right.
Seth: That is pride, and Nineveh was a really glowing example of that. They were-
David: Yeah, that is really intense.
Seth: Isn't that crazy?
David: Yeah, the, the Ninevites in their hearts are saying, "I am, and there is no one else." It's just like, that is, like, the current postmodern worldview.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] That is, yeah. That is all humans through all time. I am-
David: And there is no other
Seth: ... and there is no other.
David: Like, I set the definition of right and wrong. I know, like, what the best way for my life is. I determine-
Seth: I determine who I'm loving to and who or not to. I determine which god gets my fealty.
David: Right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Here's my truth. Yeah, really interesting. Okay, so that's an example of pride, yeah?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that helps. That conversation helps of pride and humility 'cause I think on the one hand it'd be easy to say like, "Oh, pride is a disposition." You know? "Oh, you're haughty. You're walking around with your chest puffed up."
Seth: Yeah. You think you're better than everybody else.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And humility is this little weak person.
Seth: Right.
David: Or on the other side, it's like this huge, ostentatious show of religious pride with a-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... golden breastplate or something.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And then humility's Gandhi, you know? And it's-
Seth: Yep
David: ... it's starvation.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like no-
Seth: Self-abnegation
David: ... but none of those are helpful categories.
Seth: Quite r- quite it, yeah.
David: Yeah, it's, it's are you letting God say, "I am-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "and there is no one else."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You gotta let-
Seth: Isn't that the first of the Ten Commandments?
David: Basically.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Like, "I am the Lord your God, and there shall-
David: Right
Seth: ... be no others."
David: Right, right. And so pride is not obeying the first commandment.
Seth: Yeah. No, that's really helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's really clarifying.
David: And then humility is being like, "Okay, you're the only God."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "What do you wanna say? What do you wanna do?"You are and there is no one else.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's interesting. To flip Nineveh's words is the difference between pride and humility.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Pride says, "I am and there is no one else."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Humility says, "You are and there is no one else."
Seth: "There's no one else."
David: That's cool.
Seth: That's really cool.
David: Okay. That's helpful. Thank you for going down that rabbit trail with me.
Seth: No, no, I needed that too.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, so the question is, so that's the end, we, that gets us to the end of chapter two.
David: Okay.
Seth: Destruction has been promised to Israel. Destruction has been promised to the nations.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But there is a hope of being hidden-
David: Okay
Seth: ... for the humble.
David: For the humble. Okay.
Seth: So-
David: We have all our categories?
Seth: We have all our categories.
David: I can ask more questions?
Seth: You can ask more questions.
David: Okay, great. Uh, first, why is God so offended by pride?
Seth: Ah.
David: Why, why this-
Seth: Right
David: ... I'm gonna sacrifice you to the Babylonians because of your pride?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, what is it about pride that not only elicits, but I would say because I believe in the justice and goodness of God-
Seth: Right
David: ... rightfully deserves that kind of reaction?
Seth: Mm. I mean, only, like, one of the deepest questions-
David: Yeah, I know
Seth: ... in all theology. But I mean, I think we said it, like, if you're claiming to be the ultimate authority of the universe-
David: Mm-hmm. You're making a run for God's seat
Seth: ... right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he is and there is no other.
David: Right.
Seth: He is the ultimate being in existence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is the one who gets to determine the laws.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's the one who does everything, yet I am, and there is no other beside me?
David: Yeah, it is interesting that it opens up with creation language.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Because when you look at the story of creation, it is unarguable who is, and there is no other.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right?
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: God speaks, and everything submits.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now, what happens? What happens when God is the ultimate authority?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Peace, harmony, life, creation out of chaos, goodness, flourishing, multiplication.
Seth: Right.
David: Everything good happens when that order is correct.
Seth: Yeah.
David: When God is and there is no else, and everything else is submitted to him-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's how the world's supposed to work.
Seth: That's right.
David: And what comes out, out of it is not, like, some despot ruling a broken dystopian world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is what people would probably think of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a God who wants full authority.
Seth: Right.
David: It's actually creation and beauty and flourishing.
Seth: It's like actual life.
David: Actual life. When we start to try to take over that seat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's the fall.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's what Eve did.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: She tried to determine good and evil for herself. She put her word above God's word-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and she brought death, thorns, brokenness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into the world.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so we're actually talking about that, and I think this kinda goes to the idea that the reason why God gets the top seat is because there's no greater good than God.
Seth: Hmm.
David: The reason why God wants to be number one is not 'cause he's power hungry. It's because-
Seth: Right
David: ... he's the best thing.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And to put anything above him-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... would be to put something less good-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as the center of your reality.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: And if you point the compass of your universe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... towards something that's less than the ultimate good, you're gonna get a broken life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God's like, "I want to be number one because it will lead to your flourishing, happiness, joy."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Not because I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, like, control you-
Seth: Right
David: ... but because I want what's best for you."
Seth: Here's what's, what's crazy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Just keep that in mind, like, the reason we should obey God, because he wants what's best for us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Do you remember how King Josiah died?
David: No.
Seth: So King Josiah is this great reforming king.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But he dies trying to prevent the destruction of Israel.
David: Mm.
Seth: God prophesied Israel would be destroyed.
David: Right.
Seth: God also told this to other world leaders, apparently, during that time. You can read this [laughs] in, uh, 2 Chronicles 35, one of whom was the Pharaoh of Egypt.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He's going, he's going on his way to this battle, and then King Josiah comes up to try to stop him, and the Pharaoh says, "Why are you trying to fight me? I'm not at war with you. God has told me to do this."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Stop opposing God who is with me-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or he will destroy you." But Josiah didn't listen to the word of the Lord, and he died in battle by an arrow, which is interesting because in the Book of Chronicles, at least, Book of Chronicles opens with Saul dying by a stray arrow.
David: Yes.
Seth: In the middle of the Book of Chronicles is Ahab not listening to the voice of God and being killed by an arrow, and then 2 Chronicles almost ends with another of, one of Israel's kings not listening to the voice of God and being killed by an arrow. [laughs]
David: Wow.
Seth: And so what's interesting in Zephaniah is, like, one thing we're told to obey is we're told to obey God's laws, to be humble, but we're also told to obey the fact that God will destroy his people in order to purify them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Josiah, in a moment, not wanting that reality to be true, tries to stop the destruction of Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and ends up dying himself.
David: Yeah. That is interesting.
Seth: Because the destruction of Israel wou- is the right thing to happen.
David: It would've been the best thing that would've led to their flourishing-
Seth: Right
David: ... was to wipe out the corrupt-
Seth: To die first
David: ... yeah, to die first, to wipe out the corruption-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to kill it, and it's like, that's n- I mean, there's so much there now.
Seth: There's [laughs] yeah.
David: There's so much there now. I mean, because for J- Jesus does the opposite.
Seth: Okay.
David: Jesus does the opposite. He knows his day is coming. The day of the Lord is coming for Jesus. He talks about it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... throughout his ministry, that he knows that one day he's gonna have to die-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that death has to come first, that, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the armies of Rome instead of Babylon are gonna come against his body, the final temple of God-
Seth: Right
David: ... and raze it to the ground.
Seth: And what's the thing all of his disciples keep saying? No, no, no, you're... No one has to die here.
David: Don't do that. Let's go talk to Pharaoh. [laughs] Like, let's... There, there's no stray arrows coming for you.
Seth: So, that's right. It's so funny, and then, then Jesus calls that, when Peter says it, that's the, the lie of Satan.
David: That, yep, get behind me, Satan.
Seth: Get behind me, Satan. When he tries to-
David: And for the first time-
Seth: When people try to prevent-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the destruction-
David: RightThey are actually listening to the voice of Satan and they're missing the life-giving death blow of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that would be for the good of His people. And so Jesus is the first King of Israel who actually-
Seth: Mm
David: ... ignores [laughs] and fights the lie of Satan to let the death come upon Him that God-
Seth: Right
David: ... necessarily must bring. Which is the same kind of death that He's bringing here in Zephaniah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's His anger against sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and pride, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: In our brokenness He brings it, and Jesus says, "I'm gonna step up and I'm gonna let-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that death come to me."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And He lays it down, and what happens on the other side? Alignment. Because He was humble instead of proud-
Seth: He-
David: ... He comes under God, and God, what? Creates flourishing and life and new creation through His death.
Seth: Yeah. That's pretty cool.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: And we are primed for that sort of sacrificial role when Zephaniah tells us that God will make a sacrifice out of the leaders of His people.
David: Mm.
Seth: And what is a sacrifice supposed to do?
David: Oh, bring atonement.
Seth: Bring atonement, make peace with His people.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: In th- this case, the people who are eating the sacrifice are the Ba- the Babylonian armies. But what is Jesus? Jesus is, is the leader of God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who is sacrificed for His people, consumed by the mouth of Rome-
David: Right
Seth: ... and yet purifies His people on the other side.
David: Yep. That's beautiful. It's, it's interesting too how it applies to Jesus's teaching, right? 'Cause I, I'm often now trying-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... to do this thing where He's our Lord and our Savior, our teacher and our Savior.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we, we've said, "Okay, here's how it maps onto Him as our Savior."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But also maps on to how He taught, how He taught us, like, how He was trying to make us disciples.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was like, "If anybody wants to come after me, let them take up their cross."
Seth: Right.
David: "Die-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then follow me. If you try to gain your life, you're gonna lose it.
Seth: Mm.
David: But if you lose your life, if you go through the death-
Seth: Right
David: ... you're gonna gain it." And so the same thing-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that Jesus confronted that Josiah didn't comes to us too.
Seth: Right.
David: That God wants us to go through death. He wants to kill off the things in us that aren't bringing life-
Seth: Right
David: ... that are proud, that are out of line of our flourishing.
Seth: Mm.
David: And He wants us to bring all of those things in humility under Him, and that takes death.
Seth: Right. So, like, so much of your, my life, or lives in general, are spent trying to avoid suffering-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the expectation that Jesus solves the problem of death and suffering.
David: Mm.
Seth: But the Book of Zephaniah shows, as does Jesus's own teaching, that the way to live a more holistic, purified, good life is actually to die a whole bunch of times first.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And to not avoid the suffering that comes with all those, the many deaths that come when you pursue humility over pride.
David: Right. Yeah, think about how, what God said to, I think it was Ananias who ended up meeting Paul after he had his-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... encounter.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And He said, "I will show him how much he must suffer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for my sake."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what came out of Paul suffering? Like, the birth of the Christian movement throughout-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the Gentile world.
Seth: That's right.
David: Right?
Seth: That's right.
David: So much life, so much flourishing-
Seth: That's right
David: ... so much goodness. But look at the lists of suffering that Paul makes in, like, 2 Corinthians. "I was stoned, I was flogged, I was shipwrecked-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... I was... I almost died, I was starving to death," like-
Seth: Right
David: ... why? Because look at all the flourishing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But if Paul had said no to the death, that flourishing wouldn't have happened.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's the way the kingdom works, is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... death comes first, and we have to accept it in humility. [gentle music] Okay, so let's go back to the beginning of this episode where we kind of asked a few questions that we didn't really have [laughs] answers for.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, one was why do the good people, the humble, have to suffer alongside the bad? Or another way we put it was, it doesn't matter how humble you are or how much you obey-
Seth: An indescribable day of [laughs] destruction is coming
David: ... yeah, inevitable suffering and destruction is coming, and you're just gonna have to deal with it. And it's like how is that good news?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, it's because of the disposition of the proud versus the humble.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The proud are gonna puff up their chest and be like, you know, they're gonna go down with the ship, and they're gonna-
Seth: They're gonna try to avoid death at all costs
David: ... they're gonna go, there we go.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, they're gonna go out swinging. "I'm gonna win this fight."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I'm gonna push Babylon back. They're not gonna take us alive."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The humble are gonna receive the death that comes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And their fates might look similar, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm, right.
David: But what God does with it is gonna be different.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is just so interesting.
Seth: That is really interesting.
David: And so what God's asking us to do in Zephaniah is to accept inevitable death-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... because He will bring inevitable life.
Seth: Yeah. There's the, there's the-
David: There's the through line
Seth: ... through line for the poem. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I don't know if I have anything to add on that. That is powerful. And I think it's just, we've, we've made a whole bunch of crazy examples of, like, Paul, like, was beaten, almost died four times.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, this is just the normal way of Christian living. It's like every time a husband says sorry, you're dying to your right to be right all the time.
David: Right. And what's gonna happen? You're gonna have a better conversation with your wife.
Seth: Right. [laughs] You're right, you're right.
David: Yes, life. Absolutely.
Seth: It's like, would you choose not to always express your opinion-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but, like, restrain yourself, show some self-control?
David: You're gonna have better relationships.
Seth: You're gonna have better relationship. Would you choose-
David: You're gonna be seen as more wise.
Seth: Right, would you-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, would you choose death-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in all the ways that you will need to choose death in your life? You will choose life for yourself.
David: Yeah. The only other thing I can think about right now, at least, that I wanna highlight is all these frameworks that we've built now with Zephaniah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, bring new color and helpfulness to me when I think about Revelation, actually.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because it's a very similar idea. You've got this worldwide cleansing that takes place when Jesus comes back, and the new heavens and the new earth, you know, collide-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the old heavens and old earth pass away. There's this worldwide cleansing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that happens. And I've only ever even seen that as punishment of the wicked-
Seth: Right.
David: Jesus comes, he punishes the wicked-
Seth: Right
David: ... and saves the humble. The proud are destroyed and the humble get hidden, right?
Seth: That's right.
David: But what, what he's also doing, we've talked about this other times, but for some reason, the categories are landing really nicely for me today, that the only way for there to be pastoral land for the sheep in the coastland cities of empire that used to be there-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... is if the idols are driven out, right? If the-
Seth: Right
David: ... if the wickedness is actually taken out of the land.
Seth: Right.
David: That the, the coming of Jesus and the passing away of the old heavens and old Earth, it's a getting rid of everything that's going to be unaligned with God being-
Seth: Right
David: ... the ultimate.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Anything that's not-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... humble under God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that way you can have an entire universe of flourishing.
Seth: Yeah. I keep thinking too, like, another... Well, Jesus says it, the meek will inherit the earth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The humble will inherit the earth.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And Zephaniah 2 is all about these massive civilizational centers falling and then being inherited by the humble.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the, they take over the city, uh, they... In the, in Zephaniah 2, they don't rebuild the city, they just live in the environs around the city.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's this rural kinda thing that's happening. But they inherit that land and rebuild a new society. And what I think is really interesting about that is, like, the nature of humility is that it never grasps for power.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so most humble people feel that the powerful are always taking advantage of them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they're never getting an opportunity to do what's, is right and good and humble and loving in alignment with God's laws.
David: Mm.
Seth: But the promise is that all the people exercising their authority, proudly exercising their authority, building civilizations out of their authority, all those things will be, and, and excluding the humble from those processes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... will be torn down, and one day the humble will finally be given the chance to rule.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what kind of civilization do you think the meek build?
David: The Kingdom of God.
Seth: The Kingdom of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The Kingdom of God. [laughs] Like-
David: What else could they possibly build?
Seth: What could... Right. Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. That's amazing. Okay. Well, that's Zephaniah 1 and 2.
Seth: That's Zephaniah 1 and 2.
David: So next week it's God's Gonna Sing Over Us?
Seth: Uh, we have a little bit more judgment to get through first, but-
David: Oh, okay. Okay
Seth: ... then God will sing over us.
David: Eventually the song is coming.
Seth: [laughs]
David: All right. Well, uh, thank you guys for joining us, uh, in Zephaniah 1 and 2, and we'll see you next time in the rest of Zephaniah. We'll see you there.
Outro: [Outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [Outro music]