Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Welcome.
David: This is episode three.
Seth: Side B.
David: Side B. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, B-sides.
David: B-sides.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is, so this is, uh-
Seth: The other side of the record
David: ... we're gonna do chapters four through eight of Esther. This is our third episode on Esther. And, um, there's two kinds of stories swirling around in these chapters. One is the thread of the tension between Mordecai and Haman, and we talked about that last week.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now we're gonna talk about what, for a lot of people, is the paradigmatic moment of the book, which is Queen Esther going to the king, "If I perish, I perish," laying her life down on the line to save the day for the Jews.
Seth: Yeah. And it, it is a climactic, important point of the book.
David: Big time.
Seth: She is the messianic figure-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as she goes into the king's presence on behalf of her people. Like, that is true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We'll talk about that.
David: And we'll, we'll talk all about that, yeah.
Seth: Uh, but we, w- the, it's more complicated than that.
David: It is. A lot's going on.
Seth: So to rewind the story.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're at Esther-
David: The edict. Let's start with the edict.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So the f- the, the big edict has gone out that all people are going... uh, all Jewish people, all of God's people scattered around the Persian Empire are going to die on a certain day.
Seth: Yes, the 13th of Adar.
David: The 13th of Adar. Is that right?
Seth: Oh, we should talk about why it's on that date.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So Haman, it's, it's like the function of the book. Like, so Haman consults a pair of dice-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... to, uh, determine which day he should kill-
David: Yep
Seth: ... all the Jews on.
David: Cast lots.
Seth: He cast lots, and he cast lots, and he cast lots. Um, and the lots in Hebrew are called pur.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Pur. And the, the dice land on the 13th of Adar.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I don't quite know what cast lots means on that. My guess is, like, whichever month I roll double sixes on-
David: Yeah, sure
Seth: ... that's the month. And then whatever day I roll double sixes on, that's the day.
David: That's the day.
Seth: That's kinda the way that I thought about it.
David: Yeah, sure. That's a, that's a fine way to think about it.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and so he cast these lots and coincidentally, by God's sovereign plan-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or is it by chance?
David: Da, da, da.
Seth: It ends up being on the 13th of Adar. And the end of the book, the feast that they inaugurate is called Purim, the Festival of the Dice.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Ironically, the way that Haman planned for Israel's destruction with a pair of dice is actually ironically the way, the day that they will celebrate their salvation.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: So there's that.
David: Another irony.
Seth: Another irony. So he makes this decree, all the Jews will be decree-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to kill on the 13th of Adar.
David: And so Mordecai hears about this plot, and he calls his now niece, uh, Esther, who's the queen now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To use her new really non-existent power to do something about it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he says, "You need to go into the king's, um, court, his inner court, and plead with him to overturn this edict."
Seth: Yes.
David: And she points out something to Mordecai, uh, that is just this reality about this twisted, wicked king, that if anyone goes into the king's inner court without being invited, unless he holds out his golden scepter to them, they're killed.
Seth: And think about h- that as his wife.
David: Yeah.
Seth: As his queen.
David: Yeah, she has no right, even as queen.
Seth: She's, she hasn't seen him in 30 days.
David: Yep.
Seth: She has no right to see him. Again, like, the empire is cruel towards not just women, but, like, people in power are absolutely wicked.
David: Yes.
Seth: And, like, obsessed with their own control, self-important, indulgent, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's, or it's another glimpse into, like, the horror behind the empire.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, so she says this to Mordecai.
David: Yes.
Seth: "I can't go." Uh-
David: Yeah, and Mordecai's response is like, "Look, girl," [laughs] like-
Seth: Uh
David: ... he's like, "You're gonna die either way."
Seth: He says, "It, l- it's, uh, really important." So, and then they told Mordecai what Esther had said, then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther. This is all happening-
David: All happening through a game of telephone.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. "But do not think of yourself that in the king's palace you will escape any more than all of the other Jews."
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is fascinating 'cause, like, Mordecai is a king's guard-
David: Yep
Seth: ... knows the government well enough to know that even the queen, supposedly have the most power, protection, will be killed by this edict-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in order for the king to save face.
David: This, this-
Seth: He won't-
David: Yeah, this edict must be so wide-sweeping, and the king must be so capricious and prideful-
Seth: Right
David: ... that this edict will even come close to home.
Seth: Yes. And then he says this, um, "You'll, so you'll, you're gonna die by this edict. And if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place. But you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this?"
David: So many things here.
Seth: So many things here.
David: Goodness gracious.
Seth: Um, so one-
David: Okay, yeah
Seth: ... the brutality of the kingdom, not even the queen is safe.
David: Right.
Seth: She'll be killed on the altar of the king's pride.
David: Yeah, and, like, and something to stop there and notice, um, is that there is this symbol that's being played with here, that the, the king is in this inner court in his tabernacle.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, Mordecai, who's kind of like a con- a contemporary pagan Levite in a sense-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is on the outer court as its guard. So this is like a new-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... manifestation of the tabernacle of God.
Seth: A false tabernacle.
David: A fal- false tabernacle of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But in the same way, if, uh, like in Leviticus and Numbers, we hear about if you come into the Lord's presence without being invited, you know, n-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... without being, it done in the right way, without the right garb on and after-
Seth: Right
David: ... the right sacrifice, you will die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the same thing is true of this king's inner court. And so the people of Israel-You know, you know, like, like-
Seth: Yeah. People, God-
David: Like, represented by-
Seth: Yeah, Esther
David: ... Mordecai and Esther are looking for someone to go into the king's holy of holies-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and represent them at the cost of their life.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what they're looking for.
Seth: Yes.
David: So like, our gospel radar should just be pinging-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... like crazy.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's, that's the first thing.
Seth: So that's the first thing.
David: What's the second one?
Seth: And then he says, "If you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place."
David: Which is such an interesting statement.
Seth: Such a vague statement.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Never mentions God.
David: Right.
Seth: It doesn't mention the promises of Genesis 3:15.
David: Yep.
Seth: But I think that's exactly what Mordecai's doing.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Mordecai knows he's locked in an eternal battle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He knows he's fighting against the seed of Agag.
David: Which is why he didn't bow.
Seth: The seed of the serpent. That's which is why he didn't bow.
David: Right.
Seth: And he knows that, that his, Haman's overreaction to it is part of the divine, about the demonic conspiracy against God's people. It has been happening since the foundation of the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he knows the promise of Genesis 3:15, that there is one coming-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who will crush the head of the serpent.
David: Right.
Seth: So when he says, "Who knows?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Del- deliverance and relief will rise from another place," I think he's preaching the gospel to Esther.
David: He definitely is preaching the gospel to Esther.
Seth: He's saying like, "There is one coming who will crush the seed of the serpent."
David: Right.
Seth: "There is somebody coming who's gonna crush the empire. But for now-"
David: Yeah, it could be you
Seth: ... it could be you.
David: Yeah. And, A- and it's just very interesting that, uh, what I love about this, especially since Esther, the Book of Esther is so much about the sovereignty of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... working behind the scenes, and Mordecai shows real faith here to say, "Even if you let all the people of Israel die-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, in a sense, by not doing your duty here-
Seth: Right
David: ... God's gonna do something. It's gonna, salvation will come from another place because God will not abandon His people.
Seth: Yes.
David: The, a deliverer will come-
Seth: Right
David: ... even if it's not you.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so like, God, he, Mordecai is showing that he knows that God's plans-
Seth: Mm
David: ... are not dependent upon our inability to carry them out.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: And at the same time-
David: He works alongside them-
Seth: Which is exactly his next statement
David: ... it's exactly his point.
Seth: Which is exactly his next statement.
David: Yes.
Seth: "But who knows?"
David: "But who knows? It could be you."
Seth: "Maybe you were born-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for a time as this. Maybe God has orchestrated history."
David: Yes. "Maybe God is about to redeem this time of sex trafficking and political entanglement-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and like, horrible situation you've been in, fear for your life whenever you would go near this man who is now your supposed husband. Maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... He's gonna redeem this whole situation of us in Persia to overturn something and do something amazing. Maybe-
Seth: Maybe God's gonna deliver His people
David: ... maybe this will be us crushing the head of the serpent."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Maybe this is the time." Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who knows? Like, that's, it's so amazing.
Seth: It's-
David: And like, I don't wanna get like, crazy here.
Seth: Don't get crazy, but go.
David: But it is, I, I think that the Bible, for a lot of people, comes off as a very misogynistic book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the fact that a man in this time period would say that maybe the deliverer of all of God's people-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that has been promised since Genesis 3, "It could be you, Esther."
Seth: Right.
David: Is like, whoa. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what a, what a statement.
Seth: Such a statement. And then remember, God made the promise that the serpent crusher would come from-
David: From Eve
Seth: ... from a woman.
David: So now we have another woman.
Seth: Another woman.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You have a woman here who's in this position of power to represent God's people-
David: Right
Seth: ... to save her people, and even Jesus's birth comes at the cost of a woman.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, you know, like-
David: An obedient woman who was scandalized-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and could have lost her husband and could have been destitute and laid out, like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: All the things that we wanna say, all the moral ambiguities that we see in Esther, it's like, she, maybe well, she wasn't faithful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Maybe she wasn't a good Jewish girl.
David: Maybe she should've laid her life down instead of-
Seth: Right
David: ... maybe she should have fought the king's harem involvement.
Seth: It's everything that Joseph thought about Mary-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when Jesus-
David: Oh, yeah, totally
Seth: ... happens in her womb, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, there is a, she's a type of Mary.
David: Mary.
Seth: She's a type of Eve.
David: That's interesting.
Seth: That we can see, like, God has used women throughout redempt-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... has always used women to bring about our redemptive history.
David: Yeah, yeah. Sh- I mean, she's like Tamar in this situation, too.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because she's sexually scandalized in order to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... bring about the furtherance of God's promise through-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... sex.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's very scandalous.
Seth: I don't remember where that is in Exodus.
David: It, it, it's, uh, it's Genesis 30-
Seth: Genesis
David: ... or like, uh, it's at the beginning of the story of Joseph, so like-
Seth: Go back, podcast listeners.
David: Yeah, go back [laughs]
Seth: I, I gotta figure it out
David: ... back to Genesis, the story of Joseph.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So anyway, so she's acting-
David: Judas and Tamar
Seth: ... that's a, it's a really, that's a really, really good point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So God's working-
David: It's crazy
Seth: ... behind the scenes. Maybe He's orchestrated history for this woman, Esther.
David: Jael. Sorry, I'm just like, I'm thinking of like-
Seth: No, keep going
David: ... of like, women, God using women in sexually compromised situations to bring about salvation. Jael in the book of Numbers-
Seth: Okay
David: ... or, or Judges, sorry.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Judges does the same thing. Like, she-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, the k- this, this, this evil king that the people of God are trying to overthrow-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they can't. He ends up being, like, brought into this woman's, uh, like, going into this tent, and this woman comes and, like, stabs-
Seth: Yep
David: ... him in the temple with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a tent peg.
Seth: Yep.
David: And it's like-
Seth: She brings about salvation for God's people
David: ... she brings about some people for, salvation for God's people.
Seth: Even, like, uh-
David: There are types of Eve throughout-
Seth: The Samaritan, the Samaritan woman at the well
David: ... the Samaritan woman at the well.
Seth: Sex- a sexually-
David: Yep
Seth: ... compromised woman-
David: Who ends up-
Seth: ... who is the first evangelist of the good news-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... to Samaria.
David: Yep. She brings the water of life to people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is just, it is cool. I, I, I-
Seth: It is cool. G- it's well pointed. Yes, that needs to be pointed out.
David: It's cool.
Seth: There's a reason why Esther is a great-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... s- place to go for what is the Th- Bible's theology about women.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Th- yes.
David: It's like, women have always been and will always be a central part-
Seth: Of the way that God makes-
David: ... of the way that God-
Seth: ... his new creation in the world.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Oh, that's good.
Seth: Even in Genesis, like, m-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... man and woman together are multiplying-
David: Yep
Seth: ... filling the Earth, co-creating-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, great point.
David: Whoo. Okay, where do we go from here?
Seth: [laughs] Who knows?
David: Yeah. Oh, okay. So we had talked about the deliverer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and then who knows if you've been raised up for such a time as this. So we got through Mordecai's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... little, mini s- very well said speech-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to Esther.
Seth: And everything we just said is like, "Man, the redeemer."
David: The redeemer's here.
Seth: Oh, I'm here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: She's here. She's here. And we often hear the next line. It's probably the most famous line in the Book of Esther.
David: Yep. One of, one of the most famous in the Bible.
Seth: Probably. If I die, I die.
David: If I perish, I perish.
Seth: I perish, I perish.
David: Yep.
Seth: But, uh- [laughs]
David: Oh, look at us podcast listeners.
Seth: So there's, like, a tense-
David: Yep, in Hebrew
Seth: ... in Hebrew that actually, like, communicates, like, resignation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, and, like, hopelessness. And so it's not, "If I perish, I perish," it's, "When I perish-
David: Yep
Seth: ... I perish." When I die, I'm gonna die.
David: Yep. It, it seems like she's real... And, and 'cause this echoes what Mordecai has said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Mordecai said, "Look, you can go into the king's palace and you can die, you know, or you can, you can wait around in the, in the king's palace and die-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when the edict comes in."
Seth: Yes.
David: You're gonna die one way or the other. You might as well do it for such a time as this.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, you might as well lay it on the line and do it. So there is still, even in the resignation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... there is still this like, "All right. Bring it on."
Seth: Right.
David: You know, so it's not, it's-
Seth: It's not all sad.
David: No, it still, it still took a lot of bravery on her part.
Seth: And super fascinat- like, uh, literary piece of-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... information here, I think the term Queen Esther is used 14 times-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... uh, in the book, and 13 of those times happen after this moment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So she's referred to as E- Queen Esther when she's coronated, but Esther for the rest of the time, and the rest of the book she's referred to as Queen Esther after this decisive-
David: Yep
Seth: ... moment. Mordecai preaches the gospel to her.
David: Mm.
Seth: She resigns herself to what that means, her death.
David: Right.
Seth: And when she sublimates her life for other people's life, when she's willing to die for other people-
David: She's, she's seen as a queen
Seth: ... she's royalty. She's the queen.
David: If you want to lo- if you wanna save your life, lose it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. If you wanna go high, go low.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what... If you wanna be a king, be a servant.
Seth: And this is, I mean, yeah, exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is the teaching of Jesus. This is what Jesus does as a servant of all mankind. This is what he does on the cross. He goes at the cost of his own life-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then he's resurrected as king above all things.
David: Yep.
Seth: Esther-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is that.
David: And so Esther goes in, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: Esther goes in to the king's inner court.
Seth: Yes.
David: Tense moment. Is she gonna die or not?
Seth: And the king accepts her.
David: And the king holds out the golden scepter-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and even extends to her this, "What do you want?"
Seth: Up to the half of my kingdom.
David: Up to the half of my kingdom, which is an idiom.
Seth: He's just saying, like, w- what, uh-
David: A- anything. Go crazy
Seth: ... well, I heard one, o- one person say it this way. It's like it's his queen.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he has a royal courtroom full of people that he wants to appear generous, magnanimous, powerful to.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so he is looking for an opportunity to prove his generosity-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... and his splendor, say, "Up to half my kingdom, my queen."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "What do you want?" It's, it's hyperbolic.
David: Yes, it is. But-
Seth: But it's making him, it, it's forcing him to grant her request, whatever it ends up being.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It goes back to the fact that he's a pushover.
David: Yeah, it's ironic still.
Seth: It, it's ironic. He's not really, like, thinking through his decision here.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause-
Seth: Because-
David: ... what's ironic is he's offering her up to half his kingdom, but ultimately the final, um, deliverer of God's people will take over his whole kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, you know? [laughs]
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It's just another little bit of irony.
Seth: So she invites him, knowing her husband's, uh, predilection for getting drunk-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... at parties.
David: She's like, "I'm gonna stage a bar crawl." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. She sets up a feast and invites Haman and Xerxes specifically.
David: Yes, which is perfect because Haman loves to get, or, or, or Xerxes loves to get drunk.
Seth: Yep.
David: And Haman loves to be in the inner circle-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because he wants to be celebrated. So he's like, "It's the queen, the king, and me. Dope."
Seth: Uh, yes.
David: Like-
Seth: It's e- his celebrated, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... his, his name as the celebrated one-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is like, it's coming true.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Esther throws this elaborate banquet. Um, and the king says it again, "What, my queen, would you want? Up to half my qu- kingdom." She's like, "Just-"
David: "Let's do this again."
Seth: "Just do it one more time, and then I'll tell you."
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is when Haman goes home.
David: Home.
Seth: Gets excited, uh, about e- everything with his wife-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but sees Mordecai, who refuses to bow to him.
David: Yep.
Seth: He wrecks the giant, the giant, uh, tree.
David: Pylon. Yeah.
Seth: And, um, goes to the king's room, where it just so happens that he's-
David: Yeah, he's reading this book about Mordecai, and-
Seth: And he, yeah, it, it-
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: And this is when, we talked about that last episode.
Seth: So go back and listen to all that.
David: Yeah. So then the next feast comes.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, and-
Seth: Well, so b-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... before that, we just make sure we, we say it again. He ends up honoring Mordecai-
David: Yes
Seth: ... celebrating Mordecai, and being celebrated himself. His wife prophesies, "You will surely fall before this seed if he is from the Jews."
David: That's right.
Seth: "The seed of the Jews, you will surely fall before him." And immediately in the text, the guards come to pick him up in that moment to the second feast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Another feast happens. Just like the first one, he makes the same magnanimous gesture.
David: Hmm.
Seth: "What do you want, my queen? Up to half my kingdom."
David: And this-
Seth: And so what some, w- one commentator said, like, she's actually being pretty crafty here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because, like, he now three times has promised-
David: Half his kingdom
Seth: ... half his kingdom. So even if it's hyperbolic-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... there's an expectation by anybody who would've watched it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but that he is obligated to do this.
David: He's gotta do it now.
Seth: Or he'll lose face.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or he'll look like a idiot king-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or, like, whatever it is. Like-
David: Smart move, Esther
Seth: ... smart move e- on Esther's part.
David: Yep.
Seth: And she says-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... "My people are gonna be killed."
David: Mm-hmm. Which is that her coming out?
Seth: Yeah, she... That's right.
David: That's her coming out as a Jew.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So this is the first time-
David: My people
Seth: ... my people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is the first time she i- identifies herself as a Jew. Should we read that?
David: That's interesting.
Seth: Um, [clears throat] s-
David: Wow. Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: My people. Yeah, 'cause she was, she kept it quiet up until then, I think.
Seth: Which is, it- it's also really interesting that if this is, if this is where she came out, that it happened right after the proclamation of the power of the seed of the Jews-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... from Haman's wife. So do you have it?
David: Yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: Verse 7:4.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated."
Seth: Mm.
David: Now, King Xerxes probably doesn't remember this, but this is exactly the language of the edict that Haman made all the way back in Esther 3, to be killed, uh, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That was the edict, and so she's repeating it back to him. "If you have been, uh, if we'd been sold merely as slaves, men and women, I would have been silent", which is, like, fascinating.
Seth: Yeah, that is fascinating.
David: But they would've just... I was like, I don't, I don't quite-
Seth: Right, 'cause she's like, "I'm already a slave here it feels like."
David: Right.
Seth: You know?
David: Uh, "For our affliction is not to be compared with the loss of the king. Then King Ahasuerus said to the Queen Esther, 'Who is he and where is he who has dared to do this?'"
Seth: [laughs] And that's, uh-
David: Which is an ironic thing to say.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just, "Where is he? Show me where..."
Seth: Show him.
David: He's like, it's like whenever you're in the supermarket and you're like, "I've been looking everywhere for the dish soap, you know, store clerk. Where's the dish soap?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's, like, right next to you when you're asking them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Have you ever done that?
Seth: I've done that.
David: It's so embarrassing.
Seth: Many times.
David: That's what's happening here. [laughs]
Seth: That's exactly what's happening. And we should also notice, uh, so I forget who pointed this out, but, uh, up until about Esther chapter 5, multiple years are passing.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like-
David: And then this is just slowing down.
Seth: So, like-
David: Now it's like one day is taking the majority of the book
Seth: Over the course of a couple of hours, and so, like, you're getting individual lines of di- dialogue.
David: Dialogue.
Seth: "Who did this? Who dared to do this?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then it shows, "A foe, an enemy, this wicked Haman." It's so intense.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And Haman was terrified before the king and the queen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, the king goes out in a rage.
David: Yep.
Seth: I don't know wh- I mean, he just goes out in a rage.
David: Yep.
Seth: Haman begs for mercy.
David: He's probably embarrassed.
Seth: Yeah. He is. His chief po- political advisor-
David: That he's allowed to just make decisions for him-
Seth: Right
David: ... blindly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is now-
Seth: Literally blindly
David: ... now has him in a bind where he has to affirm this thrice over promise he's made to his queen-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... in front of everybody, but it's, it's having to give up his right-hand man that he's trusted in front of everybody.
Seth: Right, so it's-
David: But he's, like, ironically embarrassed. [laughs]
Seth: Yes, and even if you go back to, uh, Esther 3 when he makes the edict, M- Mordecai never mentions the name of the people. Like, he never tells, "I wanna kill the Jews."
David: Oh, Haman?
Seth: Haman. Ha-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... Haman never says, "I wanna kill the Jews." He just says, "There's this people."
David: Oh.
Seth: So he was just like, "Oh, sure, whatever. Do whatever you want, Haman."
David: Wow.
Seth: And, like, he's, he didn't even, like, he signed his name to something he didn't know.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So you're right.
David: He's embarrassed.
Seth: He's, he's embarrassed on multiple levels.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's embarrassed. He-
David: Which nothing would give this kind of a king more rage than embarrassment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Losing face.
Seth: [laughs] Yes, exactly right. He goes out in a rage probably more over that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when he comes back in, he finally sees a justification that gets him out from under the-
David: That's right
Seth: ... being incompetent charge.
David: Because Haman is probably begging for mercy at Esther's feet, Haman.
Seth: But ironically, it's interpreted as assault.
David: Yeah, he looks, it looks like he's trying to assault her in his own chambers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think-
David: That is the charges of, for which he's, he's hanged.
Seth: Yeah, and that's why he's hung.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not because he tried to kill Esther-
David: Right
Seth: ... because that would implicate him in signing this law into the land.
David: Yep.
Seth: But he looks like he's assaulting his wi- wife, and so that's why he kills him right there.
David: Yeah, which is, like, I think I said this in the last episode, which is ironic because the king assaulted Esther first, and yet Haman dies for it.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: There's so many ironies here.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's ridiculous.
Seth: Yes.
David: Oh.
Seth: So that's the story.
David: That's the story.
Seth: Um, that's the story.
David: Yeah. So, um, let's kind of do our work now to go back through and, and first say, like, who should we be seeing God as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in this story?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Th- this, there's an exilic people of, of God reading this book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what are we to see? I mean, I think, I think, one, we're to see that God provides a deliverer for his people.
Seth: Yeah. When it looks like no God exists, there's always a deliverer for his people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Sh- um, someone will come.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There will be a deliverer who will rise from another place. There will always be a deliverer-
David: Yep
Seth: ... for God's people.
David: That's right. Yeah, yeah.
Seth: In the empire, there will always be a deliverer.
David: Yeah. And, like, that's something they're used to. An, a deliverer, an intercessor, someone to go before the king, this is a role that Israel is used to seeing occupied, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I mean, this was, this was Moses.
Seth: Yep.
David: You know, this was Aaron.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This has been the Levitical priesthood.
Seth: It's, this is David.
David: This is David.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's like we haven't even gone through the historical books where, like, all this happens, but there's been king after king after king who's supposed to represent God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and provide security and power for them, uh, security and, like, protection for them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, they're used to this category of person, so the queen is acting in those same veins.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And then, um, there's also this, this idea too of, of what Mordecai said about, like, who knows, you know, you know, if you've been brought to this place for such a time as this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where it's just like, that is, I feel like th- that, this whole di- this whole little piece of dialogue from Mordecai is proof that the, that, that God wasn't left out of this book spitefully, but carefully.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it was like, that is the most well-worded sentence to leave God out of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, "Who knows if you have been..." It's like, God could've put you here, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Like, would've been a way easier way to say it.
Seth: Maybe God has us here for a moment like this.
David: Yeah. Maybe God has us here for... No, it's, but it's not what he said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think it's because to an exilic people, that's the question they ask all the time. Who knows?
Seth: Right.
David: Who knows if?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But maybe for such a time as this. Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and it's like, I think we often co-opt this phrase to be like, to, to be kind of like, "The, man, this is the, this is the purpose for my life. For such a time as this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I've been brought to this place." And I don't think that's wrong to do.
Seth: Right.
David: I really don't. But I think in this, in this exilic context, it's like, that is a question that the people of God ask. They, they're under the threat of death constantly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're, they are cut off from God, and they're asking the question, who knows?And he, and he turns-
Seth: Right
David: ... that question around and says, "Yeah, who knows if this isn't God's time to shine?"
Seth: Right.
David: Like, if this isn't God's plan.
Seth: And I think-
David: And like, that's the thing.
Seth: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, even like the move to, when I moved up to Kansas City-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it was like, is this what God is calling us to?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is this God doing this? Is this my desires? And I feel like we're always confronted with things we don't know.
David: Who knows?
Seth: Who knows what's happening right now?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, uh, the answer the Book of Esther gives us, it's always involves God.
David: It always involves God.
Seth: It always involves not just God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it involves the rescuer.
David: Yes, the deliverer.
Seth: There is a del- There, there is... You are going to be delivered from something always.
David: Yes.
Seth: Even if you don't know what it is yet.
David: Right. And even if you took the wrong path-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's still gonna rise up a deliverer.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like-
Seth: There is-
David: ... what good news. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. That is good news because, like, it goes back to what Paul says in Romans 8, um, when he says, um... Why can't I remember a really famous passage of scripture-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... where it talks about good coming from bad things? [laughs]
David: Good coming from bad things.
Seth: He says, uh, "All things..."
David: Oh, Romans 8:28?
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Why can't I remember this right now?
David: "All things work to the good..."
Seth: Of, of those...
David: "Who love God and are called according to his purpose."
Seth: Thank you, David.
David: You're very welcome.
Seth: My mind is gone.
David: [laughs]
Seth: My mind is gone. All those who are called by God according to his purpose, regardless of where you are-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... you have been called there by God. And regardless if it looks like God's not present-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he's rescuing you and working good for his people in the middle of the empire.
David: Yes. And far from just a blatant resignation to that fact of, "Well, I guess I'll just go sit in the harem until death comes"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's that fact should cause us to step out in even more radical faith.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because God is here, and if I, if it kills me, that's fine.
Seth: Right.
David: If I perish, when I perish, I perish.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm gonna die anyway. Let's go for it, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's like God's in control, and he can move the heart of the king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, she, I think in that moment, Esther m- hopefully in her heart knew who actually was whispering in the ear of Xerxes. It wasn't only Haman.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: God was the one behind the... There's a power behind the power.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's a power behind the empire, the evil empire behind-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the empire, but there's a power even behind that.
David: Yes, that's in control.
Seth: There's a deeper magic-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... before the dawn of time.
David: Deeper, there is a deeper magic.
Seth: Um-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and this goes back to, like, the idea of coincidence.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So we've talked, we kind of mentioned it a while ago, where, um, there's nothing in the story that's outside of God's control, and that's evidenced by the fact that there are just so many coincidences in the book of, this book that you're kinda forced to conclude they can't just be coincidences.
David: Right.
Seth: We don't just happen to be where we are. So it's like it just so happens that a Jew is favored above, of all the women in the harem.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, why her?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Specifically, why a, a Jew, one of the promised people of God? And it just so happens that her one night with the king is enough to make her queen.
David: Right.
Seth: It just so happens that Mordecai's sitting by the gate, and he overhears a conspiracy. It just so happens that the king accepts Esther into the courtroom. It just so happens the king can't sleep one night. Just so happens his reader pulls out the annals of the feats of Mordecai-
David: And, yeah
Seth: ... and just so happens to open up to the page where Mordecai is doing something.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it just so happens that Mordecai, or Haman, walks into that one moment, and he-
David: [laughs] And it just so happens that he says this one thing.
Seth: Yes. All these coincidences should lead people in the empire, citizens of the empire-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to recognize that God is always working good for his people, even when you can't see it.
David: Yeah. Absolutely. That's really good. That's really good.
Seth: So here's a question.
David: Oof. Yeah, let's go. What's the question?
Seth: What does this tell us about how, you mentioned it I think a couple episodes back, about being in the world but not of it.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So Esther, we've, and Mordecai both are these kind of morally compromised characters.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They seem like citizens of the empire, but they also are the redemptive figures-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the story. They're the, the, they're what point us to Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The point of the Book of Esther isn't to ma- be more like Esther or be more like Mordecai.
David: Right.
Seth: It's to, to be confident in the God who not just controls the kings-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but the empire behind the kings.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, he's working all things to destroy the ancient conspiracy against God's people.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: He's doing that.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the main point.
David: I would agree. Yep.
Seth: But at the same time, if we are like Esther-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... if we are like Mordecai, like, renamed under the shadow of, like, the colossus called America-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or China or wherever-
David: Wherever we find ourselves
Seth: ... wherever we find ourselves, like, what does it mean for us to be faithful exiles?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Or morally compromised exiles? Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what... Yeah.
David: Well, I mean, I think, like, in Mordecai, we can see someone who did not allow the overshadowing affluence or oppression of the empire to squelch his faith in the promises of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That he knew that even though the most powerful king who's been around sits on that throne, and he knew that the most deadly edict that has ever been signed is now circulating the empire, and the, and, like, even though he knew that this holocaust was about to take place of his people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he still said, "God will raise up a deliverer, even if you're not the one, Esther."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is insane faith. I think if I was him and I had the faith to ask Esther to do that, I would've been like, "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "You're the only one who can do this."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Y- "Only you. You're our la- if you don't do it, no one will."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I wouldn't have the faith to say, "Even though you are the queen and you could actually stop this whole thing, even if you don't do it, God'll fix it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't, like, I'm just like, "That is some faith." Faith in exile is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is an intense thing that I, I wanna pattern.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I would love to have that faith that Mordecai had.
Seth: Yeah. I'm also thinking about, like, even Esther's resignation. Like, I think the choices in front of us can seem impossible. Like, there are all sorts of-... situation in their life where we are-
David: Lose-lose
Seth: ... that are lose-lose.
David: Yeah
Seth: You just can't choose a good thing, or it's between two really great things, or it means saying goodbye or-
David: Mm
Seth: ... farewell to one really important thing. Resignation is not a lack of faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: Being willing to say like, "Man, whatever happens, happens."
David: Happens.
Seth: "But I do trust that God will save us."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I know hi- the arc of history is towards God saving His people and being good to His people, so I'll trust that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... even though it kinda feels like lose-lose.
David: Yeah. That's good.
Seth: It's like there, like, I think, like, for a lot of people in the middle of impossible situations, like, no, like resignation is not a lack of faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we kinda portrayed it that way when we walked through the story.
David: Definitely, yeah.
Seth: But, like, it's not not faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not not trusting.
David: Yeah, like I said, that resignation was somehow a holy resignation because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it gave her the bravery she needed to put her life on the line.
Seth: Yeah.
David: She could have enjoyed the comforts of the harem for a little bit longer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which is what a lot of us do in, in exile.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, in the emp- in the empire, a lot of us don't go, "Well, you know, I could speak out or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... share the, share the Gospel with my neighbor, or, or I could maintain the status quo just a little bit longer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even though I know the result is gonna be the same."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'm gonna be dead-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it's all gonna be over."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like that, but a holy resignation leads us to take radical steps of faith.
Seth: Yeah. It takes God at His word that He is good-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... intentions for us.
David: Okay, I'm gonna stom- stomp on the brakes-
Seth: Okay
David: ... because we broke our own rule a little bit here.
Seth: Oh, no.
David: That we, like, not really a spoken gospel rule, but I know when you and I preach-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we always wanna talk about Jesus before we talk about ourselves.
Seth: Okay. Yeah.
David: And we haven't done that yet.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, I want, uh, because ultimately, Esther isn't about us. Like, the, the person of Esther-
Seth: Right
David: ... is not primarily an example for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: She is a- another prism, another color, another shade through which we get to see what Jesus has perfectly done for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because Jesus, like Esther, went into the king's inner court.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He went into the Holy of Holies, where if, He, He's allowed to enter.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if He was wearing our sin-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if all our, our dressings of sin were on Him and He went into that inner court, He would die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But He would die for us. He would bear our sins.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, that is what He did. He went into the Holy of Holies, where the curtain was torn, on the cross. He, He did that for us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And He went before the king when we couldn't, and He laid his life down on the line.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But God did not extend the golden scepter to Him to save his life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He laid his life down for us so that we wouldn't be Haman on the other side. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: You know? Like-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... so that we can actually be forgiven. And, like, I just, it, I, I love that picture of Esther being this intercessor-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who goes into the Holy of Holies and stands before the king at the cost of her life.
Seth: She represents, um, the lives of everyone who's trusting in her.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, we don't-
David: That's right
Seth: ... really know how many... Like, it seemed like very few people knew that she was Jewish.
David: Right.
Seth: And-
David: She hid it
Seth: ... and she hid it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But hypothetically-
David: Mm
Seth: ... all those people in exile reading the story of Esther while they're in s- exile are looking for someone like Esther to represent their lives in an empire of death.
David: Mm-hmm. She bore all the potential death of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... her people on her shoulders when she entered into that Holy of Holies place.
Seth: Yes. If she went in there and died-
David: The people would've died with her
Seth: ... the people would've died with her. And this is why, this is, I'm trying to think through, like, Xerxes is not the God of the Bible.
David: No.
Seth: He's being portrayed as a god of the Bible.
David: But like a broken, wicked version.
Seth: A broken, wicked version.
David: This is what happens when we replace the God of the Bible.
Seth: A, and the wicked, fascinatingly, the wicked, the wicked king keeps Esther alive.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But the good King kills-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the one who comes into the throne room.
David: Because the one who comes in the throne room is himself.
Seth: Oh. [laughs]
David: That's why.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's why it's still good news. That's why He's still a good King.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because good King Xerxes, or bad King Xerxes, would've done anything to save face, to make sure he came out smelling like roses, and to maintain his own power and authority.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God, the true King, lays all of that down. He enters into the throne room knowing full well it will cost Him his life, and His, "When I perish, I perish," is fixed in time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's an hour set when He goes to the cross.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that, that is what's happening.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: And when he comes as Haman-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, carrying, like, the expectations of life, like, the hope of life for all the people, and he dies, it guarantees the life of everybody else.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, Esther, in that moment, isn't just representing the lives of all the other people. She's coming bearing the edict against God's people, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, 'cause, like, she's saying, "Your, you have, there is this edict in the land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that all my G- God's people will be killed."
David: Yeah, there's death decreed over all my people.
Seth: "And this edict needs to die."
David: Yes.
Seth: And so that's Haman.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Haman represents that.
David: Haman died.
Seth: He dies.
David: That's right.
Seth: And in, we talked about this in the ironic reversal one. Jesus, in an ironic twist, actually becomes Haman.
David: Yes.
Seth: He represents the edict that was supposed to kill all of God's people, and he dies. That e- that edict dies with him.
David: That's right.
Seth: So all-
David: The edict, the, the edict that was signed against us that says, "Death is what's coming for you"-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Jesus died to overturn.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's right. Yeah. And I just wanna say it again, just in case, in a tizzy, you guys missed it last episode, the word that is probably in your Bible is gallows-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for this thing. It is the same word, tree.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, and that is what, like-I- in Deuteronomy 21, it says-
Seth: R-
David: ... cursed is anyone who's hanging on a tree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Both the word hanged and tree are the same here in, in the, in the Esther story and in Deuteronomy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the Bible quotes that in the New Testament to talk about what happened to Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is the hanged one on the tree. Like, literally, like, he-
Seth: But-
David: Like, without really going far out of its way, the New Testament says-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jesus is Haman. Like- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a, in a horrific way 'cause he's the Satan figure.
Seth: Right.
David: It's so weird.
Seth: Hey-
David: It's so ironic
Seth: ... the Haman and the edict of death over all of God's people is hanged on the cross.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And ironically, the edict itself is cursed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And when two neg- like, two negatives make a positive.
David: Make a positive.
Seth: Like, so the edict is cursed.
David: Yep.
Seth: So that means life for all God's people.
David: That's right.
Seth: Jesus becomes a curse for us. He becomes sin for us as he's hanging on the cross and brings life to all people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as he-
David: That's re- so I kinda wanted to try to save the next, the new edict for the next-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... episode, but I can't-
Seth: Okay
David: ... now that you said that because this is, imputed righteousness is a really difficult concept-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to get our heads around. But-
Seth: Define it.
David: I will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, like, it's such a beautiful picture of these two edicts. So they're, so imputed righteousness is the idea that basically I took all my sin and I put it on Jesus. That's not imputed righteousness. That's atonement, right? I-
Seth: Correct
David: ... Jesus a- atoned for my sin. He, uh, my sins deserve death. I put them on Jesus, and in his body, they died.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then-
Seth: I'm made at one, I'm made at peace, I'm made clean.
David: That's right. But then Jesus has all of this righteousness and goodness and perfection that allows him to enter into the throne room of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, everything good about him, like we took off our sin and puts, put on him, he takes off his goodness and puts on us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He gives us his life and his goodness, his righteousness. His perfect standing before God is now our own.
Seth: Right.
David: That is what's happening in these edicts. So you have this edict that says, "Death is coming for you," but when that edict died, a new one-
Seth: Right
David: ... was written, and it says, "Now life is coming to you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and death to your enemies."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, freedom.
Seth: Exactly right.
David: This is freedom, is what he's saying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm killing your enemies-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and giving you life instead of letting your enemies take your life.
Seth: I don't know why nobody's used that example for imputed righteousness-
David: Imputed righteousness
Seth: ... before.
David: It's beau- it's really beautiful.
Seth: It's like the, the curse is gone.
David: Yep.
Seth: The de- the sentence of death is gone, and there's new life for you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the destruction of all your enemies.
David: Or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... another, another perfect example of imputed righteousness in this story is where did, uh, Haman end up, and where did Mordecai end up?
Seth: Hmm.
David: Haman ended up, uh, impaled on the tree.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, Mordecai ended up riding around on the king's horse-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with the king's robe and now sits at the king's right hand.
Seth: The same position that Haman used to.
David: In the same position that Haman... That's where we get to go.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're now get, we get to go at the right hand of God. Like, we w-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we get his clothes. God wraps us up in his clothes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, put-
Seth: The empire used to be run by the king-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and his vizier.
David: Right, right.
Seth: His consigliere.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His demonic consigliere. Now because of Jesus' death and resurrection, Jesus sits on the throne-
David: Right
Seth: ... and we sit with him. We are his advisors. We sit in council with him-
David: Yes
Seth: ... over the demonic, evil empire of the world.
David: Yeah. I mean-
Seth: Ephesians 2
David: ... that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's imputed righteousness.
Seth: Yeah, that's cool.
David: That's cool. Oh, so neat.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I love this book.
Seth: It's a really awesome book.
David: Oh, okay. Well, we'll wrap up next week with the, um, the final edict that goes out. We kinda talked about, we'll wrap up with the, the feasts-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the idea of Purim and all these things, yeah?
Seth: Goodbye.
David: All right. Yeah.
Seth: That's enough from me. [laughs]
David: [laughs] All right. Well, thank you guys for joining us. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit that gives all its resources, like this podcast, away for free because of supporters like you. To help Spoken Gospel in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of Scripture and view all our free resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]