Esther 1-3: Introduction

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.

David: All right, well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We are glad you're joining us. This is a first for many reasons. One, it is the first episode for us to do, really, besides a few psalms that are in the Torah.

Seth: Yeah. So this is. Yeah.

David: So if this is your first of the Spoken Gospel podcast to see or listen to, we have others. We have, like, 75 others that are in the Torah. So Seth and I are very energetic because this is the first time out of the Torah for us.

Seth: And, like, the narrative. Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of narrative in the Torah elements throughout the Torah, but this is a sustained piece of narrative that you read like a. More like you would read Jane Austen than you would read, like, whatever, a law code.

David: So that's one. That's one new thing. The second new thing is we are filming this. So if you're listening to this on the podcast, it's actually being filmed right now. And we're going to put it up on our YouTube channel, YouTube.com spoken gospel. Or if you're on YouTube right now. Hello. Hello. What's up? Seth's looking directly to camera. I don't know. You know, that's a. You probably can't hear. You know, traditionally, I'm making eye contact with.

Seth: Connecting. I'm connecting with people. Hello. I see.

David: You are seen. And you. Oh, my goodness. And then the third first is that this is the first episode that we are recording where we are both in the Spoken Gospel offices.

Seth: Yes.

David: So that's exciting.

Seth: When did you guys get the offices?

David: We moved in in November.

Seth: Okay.

David: Yeah. So it's March now.

Seth: So fun.

David: So, yeah, we've been here, like, five months, and you came down from Kansas City to hang out with us for a few days, so we're thankful for that. So, anyway, we are starting the Book of Esther today.

Seth: Esther.

David: The Book of Esther.

Seth: I love the Book of Esther.

David: I have fallen in love with this book. It is masterfully written.

Seth: It's a great story.

David: It's a great story, too. It's also just a very interesting story. Yes.

Seth: So, yeah, I heard the story of Esther as a kid.

David: Yep, totally.

Seth: And I probably did not actually hear the story of Esther As a kid.

David: Yeah. Right.

Seth: I had this, like, really kind of, I mean, whitewashed vision of, like, Esther is this really virtuous person in the middle of a hostile place who saves her people. Which is true.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But that's all I got.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And like, there's so much more to the story of Esther than a powerful woman being faithful to God in Persia. That's there.

David: It's there.

Seth: But there's so much more.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so, so fascinating.

David: So what we're going to do today, we're going to try to do today is, is kind of take on the first three chapters with an eye to the fact that the Book of Esther is best read as a cohesive whole.

Seth: Yeah. You can't really study chapter one of Esther without also think chapter ten of Esther. It's really difficult because the whole story is a chiasm.

David: Yeah. Fancy word.

Seth: Fancy word. Which just means that every part of the story has a parallel and another part of a story. If you think back to, like, our Leviticus podcast, we talked about how the book of Leviticus is set up like a mountain.

David: Yep.

Seth: And how a lot of Jewish literature has, at its, as its climax, the center of the story, the middle of the story. And so the way Esther works is that chapter one and two is paralleled by chapters nine and ten, and chapter three is paralleled by chapter eight, and the second half of chapter three is paralleled by the first part of chapter eight.

David: It's this mountain.

Seth: It's this mountain going up to the center where you have this huge reversal happening between the fortunes of Haman and the fortunes of Mordecai, who we'll introduce in a second. And that forms the central point of the entire story. So as you read the Book of Esther, it only takes about 20 minutes, 15 minutes, I think you double speed. Listen to eight minutes.

David: Yeah, I listened to it for like the last two weeks on my 15 minute drive to work, and I could finish it from door to door.

Seth: Yeah. So it goes by really fast. And so as you're listening, you should be reading it with an eye to say, say, oh, this happened over here.

David: The same language.

Seth: Same language. So, like a really simple example is. So in chapter one two, which we're about to talk about, there's this huge feast, Right. That displays the king's greatness. And at the very end, there's another huge feast that talks about Mordecai's greatness, how great of a human being and savior he is.

David: Ultimate reversal.

Seth: Ultimate reversal. In chapter three, it talks about Haman's elevation to power. And in chapter eight, it talks about how Mordecai is elevated to power. In chapter three, you also have Haman's decree, like his edict, to kill the Jews. And in chapter eight, you also have Mordecai's decree to save the Jews and.

David: To kill those who are trying to kill them.

Seth: Yes. And around that central moment when Haman's and Mordecai's fortunes are reversed, you have a feast on either side of it where Esther is asking the king to do something for her on either side. On one side of it, you have Haman setting up a gallows for Mordecai to be hanged on, and the other side you have him being hanged on the gallows that he set up. The whole story has a parallel on the other side. So you can't talk about one half of the story without talking about the other.

David: So traditionally, we usually try to take on, like, chapters at a time and really drill down, which we're going to try to do still. But we will be making reference to the whole of the book as we go. Because you have to.

Seth: Yeah.

David: To understand any of this. Rightly.

Seth: So our encouragement would be then to read the book. Read the book every week.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That we have a podcast on.

David: If you're. If you're following along with this, just listen and read the book and then listen again and read the book again, and you'll see new things every time. It's. It's really fun. We've had a lot of fun studying this book.

Seth: Yeah, it's been great.

David: So let's kind of set this story in its context.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right. So the people of Israel are in exile. They've been in exile. And this is what is an exile. So exile is. And we just finished the Torah.

Seth: So.

David: Yeah. So if you. If you were with us in Deuteronomy, the people of God were living in Jerusalem after conquesting the land, and they disobeyed God. They broke the covenant. And so as a punishment for that, God told them this was going to happen in the Torah, in the book of Deuteronomy. Kicks them out of the land, drives them out first with the Assyrians and then the Babylonians, and then God raises up a emperor named Cyrus in Syria. And. Yeah. And they all, like, dispossess the land in different ways until the land is having its Sabbath, the land of Israel's resting. And now the Jews are in the.

Seth: Kind of middle of the exile narrative. So, like, we're like, the exile covers a lot of the Biblical books.

David: It does, yeah.

Seth: So most of the prophets. All the prophets, really?

David: Yeah. So, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different stages. You know, early Isaiah is kind of, you know, on the. On the front end, like maybe the northern kingdom has started.

Seth: You've read the Book of Dan. That's. That's right at the beginning of the.

David: Exile, Nebuchadnezzar just is kind of coming in.

Seth: Right. And so in Persia is one of the empires that takes over during Daniel's reign. And so Esther, Syria.

David: When I should say Persia. Yeah.

Seth: And so that's at the very end of the book of Daniel. So Esther happens after chronologically, the book of Daniel.

David: Right. Which. And something to note here is if you've read Daniel and you've read Jeremiah, even if you haven't, this will be helpful to know. There was this promise that. That this exile would last 70 years. Yeah, yeah. Seventy years have passed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And. And. And that's because it wasn't meant to be a chronological 70 years.

Seth: Daniel reads the book of Jeremiah and he's like, 70 years have passed. Lord, I've been in Babylon for 70 years. Are you coming back?

Seth: And then God tells Daniel, no. 490 years.

David: Yeah, it's gonna be a lot longer.

Seth: Well, he's a 70 times 7. Seven meaning, like, the completion of the rest must occur. The completion of exile must occur. Like, you are so disobedient. The land must lay fallow for a proportionate amount of time. The land must rest from your presence for a proportional amount of time before you can return. So Esther is situated in that period of exile, suffering disobedient punishment. And Esther is in Persia and Mordecai.

David: And we'll read about a time after Esther. Right. With Ezra, Nehemiah.

Seth: Right.

David: They come after Esther. Is that right? When they. When they are sent by another Persian king to go rebuild the temple and to go back into the land of Jerusalem. So she's kind of situated between Daniel and Ezra, Nehemiah. Is that a good way to think about it?

Seth: Yes. Okay, great. If you are familiar with those books, that's a great way to think about it.

David: Oh, yeah, sure.

Seth: All you should know, long story short, is Israel disobeyed.

David: Yep.

Seth: They were taken. God sent the nations of Assyria and Babylon to destroy Israel and displace most of its population. Israel, the people of God, have been scattered throughout the world. And there are small pockets of the people of God throughout these various superpowers that control the world.

David: That's right. Some are in Persia, some are In Babylon, some are in Assyria, some are in Egypt. They're all over the place.

Seth: And there's this concentrated, like, people, like population of Jewish people living in the capital city of Susa, Persia.

David: Yes.

Seth: And that's where our story takes place.

David: That's right, yeah. So this is where we are. And there's a few things to mention about exile that are helpful when trying to understand the Book of Esther as a whole. One is the different pockets of people. I think that was really good to see because this edict will go out and they send this edict out to all the corners of the territory to kill.

Seth: Yeah. It says that the king oversees 127 provinces and it's multiple languages, multiple, like governors. And so every time things happened.

David: Yep. You have to disseminate information widely and in multiple languages.

Seth: And so the people of God are spread out through all of Persia's kingdom, not just in the capital city.

David: That's right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But the other thing that is very, very unique to the book of Esther that I think exile helps give us a framework for is the fact that God is not mentioned in the Book of Esther. We have a book of the Bible that is in the canon of scripture that does not have the word God in it.

Seth: Like, he's never mentioned.

David: God's not mentioned. He is hauntingly absent, it seems.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think what's helpful is for us to understand that in the Old Testament mindset, but also in the Hebrew mind, that proximity to Jerusalem and like, being in the promised land was being near God and like, those two things go hand in hand.

Seth: Right.

David: So to be far from Jerusalem, be outside of the land, is to be absent from God.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so the fact that God's name is not in this exilic book makes a lot of sense.

Seth: Yes. Like, yeah, it's making like a poetic point, like, based on like scriptural principles. The idea is like, when you're far from Jerusalem, you're far from God's presence and power. So God's never mentioned.

David: Right.

Seth: And I think as modern readers or as a non believer coming to read the book, it's actually kind of a powerful apologetic as well. Like you experience or you assume the world is not run by God.

David: Yeah, you assume it works one way.

Seth: You assume the world works one way. You assume that all the actions of powerful men and the viruses that are going around the world and everything, it's just chaos.

David: It happens and it's all happenstance. And if you play your cards right and you get lucky, things might Go your way, but they might not.

Seth: Yeah. And you can read the story of Esther that way.

David: You could.

Seth: You can read the story of Esther and you can say, wow, these people were interesting people for their time who accomplished some good things and they worked out their people and they were able to use their political savvy to pull it off.

David: Right.

Seth: But.

David: Yeah, but there are far too many coincidences, you know, if you would there that, you know, that things just just so happen to happen.

Seth: Well, maybe before we go to the coincidences. So think about this. So you mentioned it already. There is. This book is in the canon of scripture. So you have a book that never mentions God in a book about the revelation of God. So one of the. I was reading a commentator, her name is Karen Jobes. She's a great author and I've read multiple of her things and she mentions the fact that actually the only way that you know God, one of the ways that you know God is present in the book of Esther is because it's in God's revelation. It's because it's in the canon of scripture. And without the help of other scripture.

David: Yep.

Seth: We actually wouldn't know that God is present in the book of Esther. Which I thought was super fascinating. Yeah. So the point there is that what was my point I was making? I got lost in my own train of thought.

David: That's awesome. I think it is. One good way to think about it is like it's positioning the canon being in the Bible is another way for us to know that God is at.

Seth: That's exactly right. So it's inviting you to say, okay, it can't be that God isn't here because this is in the book about God's actions in the world, particularly when it doesn't seem like he's there.

David: That is external evidence coming to bear upon the internal content of Esther. But I think there are also internal evidences there is Of God's operation.

Seth: That's exactly right. So I think what that's supposed to tell us is if you're looking at your life right now and saying God's nowhere to be found. My life is out of control. I'm controlled by people and forces more powerfully than powerful than me. Every time I try to exercise some self determination, it seems to go wrong. I can't seem to make any traction in this area of my life or that area of my life. I always seem to be sick and suffering. My friends always seem to be losing their jobs. The economy seems to be tanking. You're looking at life. The way the Book of Esther describes it, it's like, it seems chaotic. It seems like God is not present. But the fact that the Book of Esther is in God's canon of scripture should tell you that it's not all like it seems.

David: Right.

Seth: There is a God behind the scenes because the book itself is in God's revelation. This is. God is revealing himself in the minutia, in the injustice and the reversals and the coincidences and the strange things that happen in your life and even in the halls of power.

David: Yeah. And I think that's the point I would want to double down on here, is that that is the different picture of God we get in the Book of Esther that's so important, I think for us, especially as modern believers to see is that the Book of Esther gets to show us the God behind the scenes.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because like what we've seen in the Bible so far, you know, in like the Torah and stuff, it was like a God who sends plagues and speaks directly to Moses and shows up in a burning bush. And you know, it's like that's the kind of guy we see in one that speaks with thunder and lightning and manifests himself in theophanies and physical presence and shining glory.

Seth: Pillars of cloud, pillars of fire, fills the tabernacle.

David: And it's like a lot of us cannot connect with that kind of a manifestation of God. And like, yeah, sure, if I saw.

Seth: That our whole world looks like the book of Esther.

David: Yes. But like our, our day to day life is, is just like, where's God? It seems random. I think he might be there. Maybe he's working something out. I don't know.

Seth: The Bible tells me he should be here.

David: Yeah, exactly. But I don't see that reality. And neither would the people in exile.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like they are living apart from God, wondering, is God working? Everything that seems so awful, is he behind the scenes doing something or are we actually alone? And I think the Book of Esther exiles who don't know that God is actively working and says to them, even when you can't see him, God is working.

Seth: Yes. Despite what it looks like God is in control.

David: I think that was the through line for Daniel.

Seth: I think it's a really good through line for Esther too. Despite what it looks like, God really is in control.

David: I think one of the things we see God's control in is his. Is this like the foil of the king.

Seth: Yes.

David: So like, so you have this King Ahasuerus.

Seth: So I mean, this is us getting into the text yeah, let's get into the text.

David: So we.

Seth: The first chapter introduces this really powerful king.

David: Yeah, he's the. Yeah, he's the king of Persia. Ahasuerus is how the ESV translates it, but it's King Xerxes. But more importantly, at the end of the book, there's this letter that Mordecai writes, and he just references him as the king. And that's because Mordecai takes his name out of it. Even though, like, if you're sending the king's edict, it should be, like, from the capital city of Persia, from the hand of King Xerxes. He just says the king.

Seth: So what you're referring to at the very end of the book.

David: At the very end of the book.

Seth: There'S an edict that goes out to all the people, to all the Jews, to celebrate the feast of Purim. And Mordecai's writing this edict. And instead of saying, king Xerxes did all this, he just says, the king did all this.

David: And that is. I think it's a clue. And he's a believer. He's a Jew. Like, he's part of God's covenant people. And that's his way of saying, I know who's actually in control. The king has declared this edict.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think that is. We're supposed to see in the king, in his failures and in some of his, like, representations, in the way he's described, we're supposed to see contrasts and similarities with Yahweh.

Seth: Yeah. And, yeah, you can even, like, picture him. So in a world that doesn't seem like God exists or God's active, you do have people trying to take that position. And so King Xerxes acts like God. His laws cannot be changed.

David: That's right. His kingdom covers the known world.

Seth: He's described with the same language used in the rest of the Bible, only ever used to describe God.

David: That's right.

Seth: When you come into his presence and you experience his wrath.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When you experience. You pray to him. There's some languages here.

David: When Esther goes and petitions him later, those words are used for God whenever we come and petition him in prayer, like in psalms and things, it talks about his glory.

Seth: And so. And even, like in the first chapter, it goes into, like, really explicit detail about how beautiful his palace is.

David: Yes. And some of the things it talks about, the curtains, the colors, the cloth, are all temple language. This is like the tabernacle again.

Seth: Yes.

David: And we're told that, like, there's this inner court that the king dwells Inside of. And if you go into that without being invited, you die. Like this should remind us of Leviticus.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, this is like he is setting up. Like Esther is setting up the king as a foil against which we should understand in a world that looks like.

Seth: God's not in control and that God's not present, there's always going to be a king and a kingdom that presumes itself to be God.

David: Right.

Seth: It presumes itself to be the final determiner, the final power and the final say so in the land.

David: Right.

Seth: So this goes back to another important way that we need to read the Book of Esther is like, the book of Esther is meant for people beyond the Jews living in Susa when King Xerxes was in power. Like, this is meant for a broader audience and we should be seeing not just the Israel salvation, but all of our salvation in the story. I think what we're going to try to do through this podcast more and more is try to give you a category for thinking about these characters. It's not just King Xerxes.

David: Right.

Seth: He's the king of the world.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's not just the kingdom of Persia. It's the kingdom of darkness.

David: It's every evil kingdom, it's every evil kingdom.

Seth: It's not just Israel.

David: It's all God's people everywhere throughout all generations. God's chosen people.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. And yeah, absolutely. Right. I think that that is what the Book of Esther is trying to do, is to set up almost eternal categories for us through all of these different characters.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we'll get into a few of those really excited before we leave. The concept of the king and like, trying to show that God's people that. Trying to show God's covenant people that God is still in control.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: It's just interesting how the king is always shown to be kind of this puppet that.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He never makes any decisions by himself.

Seth: He's. He's like always drunk.

David: Yep.

Seth: And he always listens whatever anybody, the person closest to him suggests.

David: Yep. And so, like, yeah, so like, Haman will come in later and be like, hey, you should kill all the Jews.

Seth: Okay, sure.

David: Here's an edict.

Seth: Well, in the very first pages, like, everyone tells him to make an edict about all women in his kingdom. He makes the edict when he's drunk. Haman comes when he's drunk till I make this other edict. So he makes the edict then. Even when Esther comes and makes her plea to save the Jews, he's drunk and he just does it.

David: Yeah. Which is Directly contradicting himself.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so he's just this puppet king. And like, I think what we're. What God is trying to show his people and all people is that this is every king to me, no matter how powerful the king is, no matter how expansive his empire, I whisper in his ear and he does what I say.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that is God's control over every kingdom. And he can use tiny little Esther or wicked Haman, you know, he can use anybody. But ultimately he sits on the highest throne and moves kingdoms and kings wherever he wants. I think that is what we're supposed to see in the bumbling malleability of this king of Persia.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's super helpful. So as you prepare yourself to read the Book of Esther, like, try to put yourself in like, the imaginative shoes that we're offering you. Like, we live in a king. We live in a kingdom ruled by a king who thinks his way should be his way should be God's way. His way is God's way. The way that he thinks about the world, the way that he structures his government, the decisions that he makes are unchangeable, infallible, that everyone should bow to him. That king exists in every presidential office, every prime minister, every chairman's office throughout the globe. There are. And even not politically, maybe just culturally or even like spiritually and demonically, like, we'll get to some of that in the Book of Esther too. But there are kings who assume they are God and we live in their kingdom. And as people who, like Esther and Mordecai, are the people of God in the kingdom of the. The. Of the evil king, how do we live. How do we live when it seems like God's not on the throne?

David: Right.

Seth: But Xerxes is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When the evil one is on the throne, how do we live in that tension?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's what the Book of Esther is inviting us to. So let's get into the story. Yeah. So after there's this grand banquet at the king is getting drunk at. It's kind of a crazy party.

David: It goes for, I think, 187 days.

Seth: And then there's a seven day capstone tour.

David: Oh, great, great.

Seth: They needed that.

David: After 180 days of partying, you know what? I want seven more days.

Seth: Seven more days of partying. And it's supposed to, that's supposed to communicate to you just the level of like, opulence, wastefulness, self indulgence that this king and this kingdom represents.

David: Because what does the edict say? That he sends out to everyone.

Seth: There's only one rule at the party. There is no compulsion.

David: And what does that mean?

Seth: It means. It kind of. Kind of sounded the opposite, but it basically means do whatever you want.

David: There are no rules. The only rule is that there are no rules.

Seth: The only rule is everything's to yours to eat.

David: Which. Have you ever. Did you ever see 300?

Seth: I did see three.

David: Yeah. The movie. And like Xerxes is in it.

Seth: That's right.

David: He is like this tall, golden.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: King. And like there's a scene that shows the parties that he used to throw.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: He was famous even in Hollywood culture. They brought up on this. That Xerxes threw these nasty, gross, gross orgy, drunken parties.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So you're supposed to see a kingdom ruled by hedonism and by like aesthetics. Like, they're part of the reason. Like, it's like all about beauty. It's all surface level.

David: Their floor is made of things that normally would go on like a ring, like a mother of pearl. They just walk on that stuff.

Seth: Yeah. It's this opulent, over the top, self indulgent kind of self indulgent party, which, like, should.

David: It was just a great way to cue us in today as like when you see kingdoms flexing like this.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Know that this is evil.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, whenever you have leaders and kings and rulers talking about how great they are and how much wealth they have and building great buildings and talk like feels.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's evidence. Evidence that we live in the kingdom.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The kingdom of Persia is an eternal kingdom and we still live in it. Our people, we as people are still. The people of God are still in that kingdom. And all the rulers of the world are still taking their cues from the Xerxes. We still live in the kingdom. All of this is evidence that we haven't progressed beyond.

David: Yeah, right.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: So during this party, the king wants to show his wife off because she's apparently very beautiful.

Seth: So again, what's being showed off there? The beauty, the opulence. There's like this preference for shallow beauty. Again, like, how much of our culture is still a part of this kingdom. Beauty, shallowness, parading women around is still like a central part of life in the kingdom. It was then, it is now. So she. He says, come out and show your brute beauty in front of all my drunk men.

David: Yeah.

Seth: She's like, no, no.

David: And I'm like, good for Queen Vashti.

Seth: That's how I feel about it. And then he Goes into a rage.

David: Which is like a classic move, too, for this story, where it's like this great king with all this opulence to show, you know, his partygoers his wife's beauty. And his wife is just like, no. And it just sends everything into a tailspin, which is like a foreshadowing what's gonna happen with him and Esther.

Seth: Yeah. He. He is actually powerless.

David: Yeah, he's powerless.

Seth: His wife won't listen to him. Yeah. Apparently, he can make unchanging laws, but his wife won't listen. And, I mean, again, it's not a good thing, but it's poised. Proves the point. Yeah. Anyway, so she won't come. He flies into a rage, and all of his counselor. He banishes the queen, and all of his counselors come to him and say, hey, if news of this is going to get out, and if news of this gets out, none of the women of the kingdom are going to listen to their husbands. You should tell all women to bow down to their husbands and honor them the way that Queen Vashti should have. Should have honored you. And he's like, that's a great idea. And he signs it off, but nobody would have known about it.

David: No, he just. He just aired his own dirty laundry to the whole kingdom.

Seth: There was all the governors of his kingdom that would have been there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So maybe there's something to be said for, like, hey, make an example of Vashti for your governors. No one here. But what he did by making an edict to all lands, in all languages, to all people, just exploded the problem that he had in the first place. Everybody knows that the king is not listened to by his own.

David: Was humiliated by his wife.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. It's hilarious.

Seth: It is fascinating. It's an ironic. Well, we'll talk about irony a good bit in here, but it's an ironic, like, moment where, like, the king who has all power, when he wants to.

David: Just use himself as powerless to his kingdom.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah. It's hilarious.

Seth: So in that the king finds out that he's lonely because he doesn't have a wife anymore, Queen anymore, And his counselors come to him again, say, hey, I have an idea. We can collect for you all.

David: I just thought of how his core court like, guides are like the. The dude in the romantic comedy, he's like, let's get you a rebound, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. Dude, there's so many fish in the pond. They're just like the classic romantic comedy rebound guys.

Seth: Yes. And they come to him. They say, here's the. Except here, they're a little more brutal than the rebound guys, because the rebound guys, let's just go trolling for girls and bars here. Let's kidnap all the beautiful women in the kingdom. So they say, hey, king, you, don't you need a wife?

David: Yeah.

Seth: What if we go and collect all the beautiful virgins from all your kingdoms? You can sleep with each one of them successively and then choose which one you prefer to be your king based on their sexual performance.

David: So next up on the Bachelor.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Esther, brought to you by abc.

Seth: Yes. So, yes. So we literally have a TV show based on that.

David: Similar here in America, where a couple.

Seth: Women will sleep with one guy and he chooses his favorite from among them.

David: Now, watchers, the Bachelor would disagree with that statement.

Seth: Yes. But all you need to say is that it's evidence we live in the kingdom.

David: It is. It's just like here. Here we've gathered all the most beautiful, eligible bachelorettes from around the nation to come and date this one guy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You give, like, even the opening night, he gives, like, this thing called the first impression. Rose.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Well, who's the hottest? You know? Here you go. Yeah. And then they have this thing at the end called the fantasy.

Seth: And what's in of those TV shows? Champagne.

David: Yep.

Seth: Beautiful locations. Everyone's going to, like, to Greece, into Florida, the outback.

David: Greece and Florida.

Seth: I don't know.

David: All these beautiful places, Greece and Florida. But, like, no offense to Florida.

Seth: The opulence, the drinking.

David: Totally.

Seth: The partying.

David: The sex.

Seth: The sex. The facade of beauty. Like, we still live in the kingdom.

David: We do.

Seth: We still live in the kingdom.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so the people say, okay, and let's do this party. Let's do this. Let's do this competition.

David: Yep.

Seth: And the king says, well, that's a great idea. I would love to have sex with hundreds of women and then decide my favorite.

David: Right.

Seth: So the kingdom is brutal.

David: It is very brutal.

Seth: It's not just superficial. It's not just funny. It's not kind of stupid. Like, the Bachelor is horrific. It's grotesque. Like, it's authoritarian. It's. I'm trying to think of words to describe a king who would kidnap the women from every region and then rape them to determine his next queen.

David: Yep. I think it's important to lean in on that and use that language, because I know when the story of Esther has been told and I've heard it told, it's like, and Esther came, and she got to spend a year making herself beautiful. And then she went before the King and did a Runway show and then left. No.

Seth: Verse 8 of chapter 2 says Esther was taken. She was taken. She was kidnapped. This is forcible. She was given all this cosmetics. But.

David: And like, the word custody is used there. Taken into, like, the custody. Like she was imprisoned into a brothel.

Seth: Yeah. So the king's harem.

David: This is sex trafficking. Yes, that's what this is.

Seth: So she was invited into the king's harem. And a harem was essentially just a building where the king housed all his potential sexual partners for the use of, like, political power. So he would say, I'll bring your daughter here and this, like, seals. I'll have sex with her. That seals our bond between our two nations. And he wouldn't necessarily sleep with them again. It acted function like. Like a prison for a lot of these women.

David: Yep.

Seth: Because they would come, sleep with the king once, be consigned to the harem, and then live a lonely, exiled life in the king's harem.

David: Yep. So here and there were these two harems. Did you pick up. Did you pick up on.

Seth: No, I didn't.

David: So, like, Esther is in this beauty prep school.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Comes in, is raped by the king, and then she goes to a second harem.

Seth: It says, fascinating.

David: And, like, that's her retaining cell. And it says after it says the second harem until she is called back by name by the king.

Seth: Right.

David: Probably wouldn't happen.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it's. It's. It's grotesque.

David: It's horrible.

Seth: And again, let's make another modern parallel here. The fact that we still live in the kingdom, like, we don't have the resource. Most people don't have the resources to house 500 sexual partners and then choose whichever one we want. But we do have cell phones and our harems are just digital now. Yep. Like, pornography is our modern version of the digital of a harem. We still live in the kingdom. Like, we are not. Have not escaped the world that Esther.

David: Is describing or things like Tinder. Yeah, yeah. It's like, no, no. Based on physical. No. Oh, yes, I'm sleep with you. Okay. Next. You know, and like, we just still live in this. In this kingdom.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. We could see the evidence for it everywhere.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So then we're introduced. So we kind of basically said, Esther is one of these women. Yeah.

David: Esther gets taken and she is one of the people of God. She's a Jew and she. Her parents have died previous to this.

Seth: She was adopted by her Uncle Mordecai. What's kind of fascinating, it takes us so long to get to the title character of the book, but here they are. Yeah. Do you. Why is it. Why does it take so long?

David: It's a good question. I think it's because the emphasis of the story is on kingdom, not necessarily Esther. And so, yeah, it's the title character of the book, but I think we're meant to be couching this whole thing and the idea of kings and kingdoms.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: And not necessarily in the bravery of a woman. Now, like you said at the beginning, that's part of it. I don't want to downplay that role, especially for his intercessor.

Seth: But really, in the story, she's not the main character.

David: She's not really the main battle is between what we'll see in chapter three, between Mordecai and Haman. We'll get there. But I think it starts with the kingdom, because that is the setting. And the overall purpose of this book is to show us who moves kingdoms, who's in charge, who will save God.

Seth: Everything looks like God's not visible. Is God still there? That's the point the book is asking.

David: And that's why he spends so much time opening up on the opulence of a kingdom and then focusing on the, like, the stupidity of this king. Because, like, these are the kings you want to trust in. These are the kings you think, while you're in exile, are really in control. These bumbling idiots. Yeah, of course not, like. And so I think that's why we spend so much time before we get to Esther.

Seth: And so she's invited. She's invited. She's kidnapped into this beauty pageant. And so here's a really interesting moment for Esther. So, like, I mean, this is grotesque. This is awful. But she's powerless to do anything. So what do you do as a person of God when the culture demands from you superficial beauty, sexual prowess? And in her case, maybe less so in ours. But she's being forced to perform sexually for her survival or it's gonna happen. So she's in this kind of awful situation. Does she resist the king when she spends her night with him? Or does she try her hardest to please the king?

David: Right. In order to gain favor.

Seth: In order to gain favor.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is.

David: But there's. This is a gray. This book has a lot of gray.

Seth: Areas to it that's probably good to name right here.

David: Yeah. Because we don't need to try to morally reconcile Esther in this story because she is not meant to be a moral paradigm that we live up to.

Seth: So what you're saying there is. I've heard versions of the book of Esther. People preach once like, Esther is the paragon of godliness. I've also heard versions of the story of Esther. Esther is a terrible person. She hides the fact that she's Jewish. She doesn't keep it in the kosher laws. She's apparently great in bed. Like, she's a morally compromised human. And what you're saying is like, actually you're not meant to make that judgment at all.

David: The right interpretation, I think. And what I think a lot of people we've been reading have been saying is the, the best way to understand Esther is to let both of those things stand on opposite sides and live in the tension between the two. Because this whole book is tension.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And the whole book is irony and reversal. And so we don't need to go like, no, Esther was. She did this again. She didn't want to do this. And like, no, let's. We don't need to go that far to try to, to make her, you know, like morally pure perfect. Neither do we need to say, yeah, she compromised everything and gave it up. And she's this worldly, you know, whore, you know. No. Like there's good and bad, right. And we, and it's not our job and it's not what the book of Esther is trying to show us to find, which is good and bad.

Seth: Because the point isn't be like Esther.

David: No.

Seth: Or be like Mordecai. It's. It's who's who, which king, who's in control, who's in control. Whose kingdom do you align yourself with? And at this point, it seems as if Esther has aligned herself with the kingdom of Xerxes.

David: That's right.

Seth: The kingdom of the world.

David: Yep.

Seth: She, in all intents and purposes, is a product of the kingdom. She's beautiful, she's good in bed. She has all the opulence of the fine oils and myrrhs and well dressed.

David: Mordecai told her not to reveal the fact that she was Jewish, to just try to be Persian.

Seth: She's more beautiful than Vashti. Apparently. Like all the shallowness of chapter one.

David: Is now on her.

Seth: Is on her. She's a product of the kingdom. And I bet you almost anything you ask any woman who alive today, they will feel the pressure to be like the kingdom. Whatever beauty standards, whatever dress standards, whatever sexual expectations are placed like on people in the kingdom in Xerxes day are still placed on women today.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like there is not only double standards, but like sexist misogynistic standards, which women are held to, that they're all constantly being asked, will you be a product of the kingdom? Will you conform to its ways, or will you consider a different way? And so all we know about Esther at this point, though, is that she seems to be a product of the kingdom.

David: Right.

Seth: Even her name, Esther.

David: Yes.

Seth: So her Jewish name is Hadassah. I think it means, like, myrtle or something.

David: Okay.

Seth: It's like a tree. But her Persian name is Esther, which.

David: Is like the Persian God Istar.

Seth: Yes.

David: It sounds just like it's the same name, Ishtar Estar.

Seth: It's like. It's a very similar. She is a product of the Persian gods.

David: And her uncle, his Persian name is Mordecai, which apparently.

Seth: So I thought Mordecai was always a Jewish God.

David: Oh, no, sorry. Yeah, but it's. It has this. It has this Persian referent.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So Mordecai is his name, but it sounds an awful lot like Marduk.

Seth: Right. And I think it's even like Mordecai is a perversion of the original Hebrew to make it sound more like Marduk.

David: Which is, like, even in his name.

Seth: And Marduk's another.

David: Sorry. Yeah. Marduk is like the consummate Babylonian God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like. Like, he is. Marduk's the heavy hitter.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, like Mordecai, even his name is some kind of weird cultural blending of Israel and Persia, which is like the opposite of what the entire biblical narrative was hoping for.

Seth: God's people, there's always emphasis on don't. Don't intermarry, don't worship their gods.

David: And now you. Your. Your name has been changed and to sound like another God. You intermarried, so you're culturally compromised, and now you're religiously compromised because you sound like this other God.

Seth: So you have this situation where, like, you're intractably connected to the kingdom.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I would. I would guess that all of us feel this way. Like, if we were. Try to. Like, we. How do you separate the people of God from the kingdom that we live in right now? Like, as a human being in the 21st century, living in America, like, I actually can't pull out of myself all the ways that I'm culturally American from the ways that I'm culturally biblical, you know, or I'm a part of the people of God. My identity as a Christian in Christ always seemed to be so intermixed with American idolatries, Western idolatries, liberal idolatries, what conservative idolatries. That, like, I don't know how to pull apart the two halves of myself.

David: To be in the world and of the world is far harder than that verse makes it sound.

Seth: Yes. And so we have pictures of what that means. Like, these people are intricately connected in the kingdom, yet somehow also part of the people of God.

David: Right.

Seth: And so let's switch.

David: Well, I think it's just interesting to. I think. I think seeing Istar and Marduk in Esther and Mordecai is also another way that God is trying to show us in the book of Esther what's the main point? And it is that these false gods, Istar and Marduk, are going to be the downfall of, or even like, end up being in control of the kingdom of Persia, because Esther and Mordecai are going to end up, like, being the ones who seal the edicts and make the policies and turn the heart of the king.

Seth: What you're saying is that the nations that sent Israel into exile, Persia, Babylon, Assyria, they had these gods that were in control of those kingdoms. Marduk, Ishtar, baal, baal.

David: And they thought it was because of their gods that they were able to overpower Yahweh.

Seth: So they, two people of God come in, they rename them based off their presuppositions about who's in charge.

David: Trying to say, like, look, our gods have overshadowed your Yahweh God. So you won't be Joshua. Like, you know, Yahweh saves. You know, Yeshua, Yahweh saves.

Seth: You won't be symbols of God's provision or whatever. You'll be symbols of our conquest over you.

David: That's right. Our gods have beaten your God, so we're renaming you.

Seth: And so the fact that those God, those. So Esther and Mordecai, Ishtar and Marduk rise up into Babylon and save God's people.

David: That's right.

Seth: There's a total reversal.

David: God is saying, I am in charge, not these false gods, and I'll prove it to you. I'll use your own gods to topple your own kingdom.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: That is. So I think even the whole point is to show that this is, like we've said before, huge cosmic, conceptual categories to show a major battle between good and evil, God and Satan. That's happening here. And nowhere does that seem more clearly than in chapter three. Yes, Right.

Seth: We should name also, just before we move to chapter three. Mordecai is Esther's adoptive father.

David: Yes.

Seth: He also encourages Esther to submit to the king's beauty pageant.

David: Right.

Seth: He doesn't resist the kidnapping. I don't even know if he could.

David: I don't know he could either. But we're told that he encourages her to go.

Seth: That's exactly right. And then Mordecai is placed in the king's palace.

David: So he is outside the king's palace and he operates as a temple guard, basically. So, like, he's kind of like a new Levite, which is very interesting.

Seth: Think about that.

David: You know, because it was part of the job of some of the tribes of Levi to stand around the tabernacle to guard it. So if we have this inner holy of holies with all its opulence and its curtains, and it's fine twined linen and its stones in the middle, and then you have this temple court outside, and Mordecai is to guard it. And we know he does this because later he hears of a plot to overthrow the king and he ends up revealing it to the king and saving. He operates as the guard. So that's his job, is temple guard. So not only is he assimilated into the kingdom, he is part of the infrastructure of guarding the kingdom. Like he is integrated into this.

Seth: Yes. And so where is, where does it say that he is from? Kish. And he.

David: Oh, it's somewhere in two and three.

Seth: So, so, so, okay, so let's go back to this. Like, intricately connected. Yes. He's guarding the presence of the king of the world, and he is responsible for protecting him, providing for him. But at the same time, he's also identified as from the tribe of Benjamin and from the man named Kish. Now that sounds like. Oh, that's just a weird, random, random fact about Mordecai. Wrong. Super, super wrong. Super important.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Benjamin and Kish were the descent King Saul, King Saul.

David: They were descendants of King Saul.

Seth: He was the descendant of King Saul. King Saul was the first king of Israel, and he was from the tribe of Benjamin. So by including this fact here, what it's clueing us into is not only is he kind of this intertwined person of God with the kingdom of the world, he also represents the kingly line of God's people. He's supposed to rule and reign God's kingdom. Like, that's. That, that's his lineage. That's what he was supposed to do. But he's not doing that.

David: That's right.

Seth: Until.

David: Until chapter three, when we meet this, this Haman. So time is fast forwarded. Right? We've jumped ahead over a year.

Seth: Yeah, A good, good chunk of time.

David: Yeah. And now, there is this man named.

Seth: Haman, and the first thing we're told about him is that he is an Agagite, which may again not mean anything to you, but King Saul was commanded by God to go and kill King Agag. Yeah, the leader of the Amalekite.

David: The Amalekites.

Seth: Yep. Saul disobeyed. He allowed King Agag to live, and he went on and had his own people. And that nation stopped being called the Amalekites and started being called the Agagites. So the failure of King Saul to crush the kingdom of Agag is now coming back full circle in a. In an irony like this. Reverse reversing irony. And the kingdom of Agag will now.

David: Rule over the people of Israel.

Seth: He's second in command, and he now rules over the people of God, which this is.

David: And this reversal is a repeat of the reversal that happens in the promised land. To begin with, with, like in. Back in. Back in the Torah, God says, go in. You're going to completely destroy the Canaanites and the parasites. You know, the parasites. I always like parasites. But you're gonna. You're gonna do this, and if you don't, they will be a thorn in your flesh. Right. And, like. And there will be this reversal. They will rule over you, and you will worship their gods. All of this is happening now.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah, exactly right.

Seth: So Haman steps into his position of power as the vizier of Persia, second in command of Persia, and he demands that all of his subordinates bow down to him. Mordecai refuses to. Not simply because he doesn't like Haman, but because Haman represents an ancient battle between the people of God and the enemies of God. The enemy. The evil empire of the world. The empire. And so he's like, I refuse to repeat the sins of my father that caused the situation in the first place. Haman kind of overreacts and says, I'm not just going to kill Mordecai. I want to kill all Jews everywhere.

David: Which is a huge overreaction. But it again points to a larger battle.

Seth: This is not about Mordecai versus Haman. This is about the empire versus the people of God.

David: That's right.

Seth: And Haman and Mordecai are acting as representative heads. Representative heads for this cosmic battle that's.

David: Always been going on, which should take us all the way back to the Garden of Eden, which is there is going to be enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman, which is what God said after the curse and there. And that's the battle that takes place between Cain and Abel, between Jacob and Esau. Right. Between and between their descendants as they go in. Like, you know, Ham's descendant, you know, from one of Noah's sons that was cursed is Canaan.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And. But then one of his sons that he blessed, his descendant, are the people of Abraham and the people of Israel. They have this big battle later on. Like, that's what the conquest of Canaan is. And so, like, over and over and over again, throughout the biblical narrative, it's the story of God's people fighting God's enemies between the seed of the serpent, the servants of evil, versus the servants of good, and God's chosen ones, like, fighting it out. So this is a cosmic battle happening in the book of Esther and the.

Seth: Definition of life in exile. So let's, like, looping back around like. Like we're kind of just trying to unpack the fact that they're in exile. In exile, away from God's promised lands, we will always be in conflict. Well, I mean, even in the promised land, but we'll always be in conflict with the empires of the world. Right. There is always going to be an ongoing conflict between the people of God and the empire of the world when we are not with God.

David: Yes. Yeah.

Seth: Like, this is the way it will always.

David: When God's name isn't mentioned, when God's.

Seth: Name isn't mentioned, we will always find ourselves at odds with the world around us.

David: Right. And so that's what's happening here between the story and this is really just setting the stage. And you have this edict, I just want to say it again, that goes out that all Jews, so Haman, throughout.

Seth: All the kingdom, he wants to kill everybody. And so he wants to put it into law. And so in order to do that, he goes to King Xerxes, gets him drunk, pays 10,000 pieces of silver for the destruction of the representative head of the Jews.

David: Yep.

Seth: So, I mean, like, that's Judas and Jesus. Judas paid silver, and he says talents.

David: Of silver, which 10,000 talents is also the number Jesus uses in the parable of the unmerciful servant.

Seth: So interesting. So just keep these numbers, keep these ideas in your mind. And the king drunk the most powerful. Sure, dude, that sounds great.

David: Which is like, like, like think about this. If you are an Israelite in exile and you're thinking that the king of Persia is in charge and maybe even a foil against which you're supposed to see Yahweh, doesn't this feel like how Things actually are, it seems like our enemies, the Agagites and the Canaanites and Babylon, they just came to God and he was drunk and he just was like, yeah, sure, whatever, do whatever you want, I don't care.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And God is going to show throughout Esther that has not who he is. He is not some dispassionate, drunk, aloof, flippant king that can be malleably moved anywhere he wants. He has a plan for his people and will be faithful.

Seth: And look how it undermines even our ideas that like the king is actually in charge. No, Persia is not. What's the primary actor here? It's the empire of the world. This ancient battle between the Agagites and the people of God is actually the one defining all the terms in this story. It's not so much about Persia and their empire and whatever else. It's about this ancient conflict between the people of God and the people of the empire. And so I think even today we can get really lost and say, no, no, it's actually about the, it's about the liberals being liberal. That's the problem. It's actually about the conservatives being conservative. No, the central, like conflict in all nations at all times that live apart from the presence of God is the conflict between the empire and the people of God. And those things are always. That is the defining conflict for all of political life in the world. That's the battle that's going on. We do not wrestle with flesh and blood. We wrestle against principalities and powers and the rulers and power in this present age. The book of Esther is giving us a really vivid picture what that looks like. Yes, Haman's a physical person in the story, but he represents a centuries ancient battle between good and evil, the people of God and the people of the empire. And he's showing like Xerxes isn't who you worry about. Worry about the evil one. Yeah, don't worry about whoever's on the throne or in the White House.

David: He can be moved however we need.

Seth: And he will be manipulated by the powers of darkness.

David: Right. Maybe that's a good way to talk about it. Is like the power of darkness seen in Haman, the Agagite is like, is like, is a picture of Satan operating behind the thrones of this world. Yes, he's whispering. He's the consigliere whispering into the ear of the king, moving him wherever he wants. And like, what God? But I think what Esther's trying to show us is what Psalm 2 shows us that like God's Actually in control of every throne, and he's the one who moves the heart of the king, you know? And, like, that's what we'll see in the reversal of all this. I think as an exilic Jew reading this book, the first three chapters, like, yep, this is what I expect.

Seth: This is life.

David: Everything's compromised, everything's terrible, and our enemies are in control.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then God's going to use all of that dark weight to then show this bright reversal at the end of the book and through and through the middle. So we'll get to that reversal next week. But before we go, we need to do what is our. The whole reason we exist as spoken gospel. And let's kind of. I think this one just had a really tight thread on it. So I didn't want. We didn't want to break it up. Let's kind of work back through and go. Okay. So in this dark empire.

Seth: Yes.

David: And this puppet king and these horrific, flippant edicts and the people of God being oppressed in exile, how do we see, savor, and worship Jesus in these texts?

Seth: Oh, before we get to the victory at the end.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, in exile.

David: Yeah. I mean, I think about how Jesus, he came in exile. He did not. Jesus did not rise up in Jerusalem. He rose up in Galilee, in Samaria, like, which is one of the oldest Nazareth, but, like, one of the oldest, most originally deposed kingdoms. Like, one of the first kingdoms to fall in the Northern Kingdom's invasion. Like.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, it wasn't like, this last bastion of hope, like the Maccabees were trying to be in the intertestimal period when they were held up, you know, in the temple. That. Which is where.

Seth: We don't know any of that history.

David: Well, that's where we get Hanukkah from. Is that whole idea.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so Jesus came as an exile, and he came to exiles, you know.

Seth: And under the oppression of a Roman.

David: King of another empire. Still there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is still the seed of the serpent. Like, whether it was Herod or Caesar or Pilate, like, the king was still on the throne and being animated by the evil one. And the evil one came and whispered into the ear and said, kill this Jew.

Seth: Fascinatingly.

David: And he was sold.

Seth: Yeah. And, like, think about the irony even, like, in the fact that it is the Jewish people who are taking the place of Haman when Jesus is being crucified.

David: That's right.

Seth: They're the ones whispering to Pilate, y kill Mordecai.

David: The assimilation of Mordecai Marduk, Esther, Isar. The assimilation is complete. They aren't some hybrid now. They are all in the. Even, even the people of God without his help would have been doomed to be the Empire. Yeah, like, and that's, that's the, that's the thing is like as the people of God, we didn't like luck out and are somehow better. Like we would have been the ones whispering in the king's ear and leading everything to evil too.

Seth: I think if we're gonna say like, so how do. What is the good news here? Like, let's just talk about the bad news too. Like, we live in the Empire.

David: Yes.

Seth: This Empire still exists. We still choose our partners based on their sexual prowess. We prefer self indulgence to self restraint. We prefer the shallowness of beauty that fades to like true, truly gorgeous things.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like we, we want the beautiful virgin. We don't want a 50 year long marriage.

David: Like we are all like culturally compromised and it feels, it feels bad.

Seth: We can't untangle ourselves from the culture that we live in. We live in societies that are ruled by powers that are capricious at best.

David: At best and malicious at worst.

Seth: Malicious at worst. And regardless are controlled by an ancient evil.

David: That's right. There is still an enemy of God whispering into the ear of the leaders of the Empire.

Seth: Yes, that's exactly right. So what is the good news for the people of God in all that?

David: Yeah, it's.

Seth: I think it's really simply at this stage of the story, it's that God has not forgotten you. He's actually written a book about you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: If you feel like your life is out of control and there's only injustice around you all the time and nothing seems to go right. God has written a book precisely for people surrounded by the Empire. I keep thinking about Star wars when I say the Empire.

David: I know, I think you're supposed to.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. But like, if you feel like you, you can't escape the clutches of the Empire, the expectations that the Empire has for women, expectation the Empire has for men and the way that they use power. I mean, think about the MeToo movement. Like, like all of this is like this is all here. He demands his wife come out and parade his beauty and then wants to sexually abuse hundreds of women to prove what about himself? I don't know. But like we still live here.

David: Yeah. Harvey Weinstein is still here, you know.

Seth: Like, and I think maybe at this point in the story is that God is with us in exile. He actually wrote a book describing a godless place. And to show us that that's actually not the case, that this isn't just America going crazy. This isn't just China going crazy. This isn't just wherever you are being nuts. The battle is actually far larger. This is what the book of Revelation does. It takes people suffering in the churches, in the seven churches and kind of expands them and blows them up to this kind of crazy, like, cosmic proportion.

David: Now it's dragons and oceans and whatever else.

Seth: But what that should do for people who are living in exile and feel like they're living in a godless place is like, okay, I'm not alone. There are other people suffering like me. And this isn't just an isolated incident. This is part of a global attack on the people of God. And that cannot be overlooked by the God I claim to serve like that. Like, if it's bigger than this, that means there's other rebels, right? If it's bigger than this, God knows what's happening. If it's bigger than this, we can still hope to overthrow the empire one day. I think, like, maybe that's kind of going on in the scenes.

David: I definitely think so, because it's like.

Seth: If it's just one village on an outpost on Jakk. Some Star wars refs. Like, if you, if you're just being like, like. So that guy Ray. Who, Ray sells all those like, spare spaceship, like one quarter portion.

David: Yes, if that's.

Seth: If that's what you think it is.

David: Yeah, man.

Seth: It can be. Feel really hopeless.

David: You can feel alone. But you knew that this is. This has been the cosmic battle happening since the beginning of the fall. And that has continued manifest itself in every single kingdom on every corner of the world.

Seth: And there seems to somehow in some ways be people of God in highest places of power, right? Yeah, man. What's going to happen?

David: Yeah. And that God, like that God has his people there in those kingdoms and places them there and does so in order to.

Seth: Not to overthrow Xerxes.

David: Right.

Seth: But to overthrow the evil one.

David: To overthrow evil itself. Yes. And I think, like, that is the good news of Jesus's coming. Is that. What I love about the gospel is that in a world where our everyday experiences tell us that the word God is not in our story, like God is absent from our story. We get to look to the gospel story and see that not only is God in control, God is in the flesh. And God has come into evil empires and has identified with us in our exile, has come to us in our exile. And in the Gospels, you see him starting in Galilee and then making his way into Jerusalem. And he comes into Jerusalem and he's bringing his disciples with him, he's bringing followers with him, he's bringing a train of people with him into the temple.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like, and then at his death, that, that, that curtain into the king's palace that's full of fine twined linens and onyx stones is open. And now it comes out to us all the time.

Seth: Those same stones mentioned.

David: Yes.

Seth: In King Hazrat's palace is mentioned in Revelation.

David: That's right.

Seth: When Jesus returns.

David: And so God has come to us exiles and has brought us into his palace.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like, and I just think it's amazing that like. Like the God who seems absent in Esther, in the Esther story, we see that. That God has made himself just immensely present and that he will bring us out of the empire of this world. Like, God will topple every kingdom. He will ultimately defeat the evil one, and we will never be in exile again when he comes.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, we will live with the king at a proper feast.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Not in a drunken stupor feast where all bad decisions are made.

Seth: The wedding supper of the lamb.

David: The wedding supper of the lamb where we feast in a holy way like that. Like maybe in Babylon we don't have. We just don't have a context for.

Seth: I mean, the book of Esther does end with a feast.

David: It does.

Seth: A celebration of the destruction of God's enemies and the deliverance of God's people.

David: Yep.

Seth: That's the way the book ends. And it is a parallel to the opening feast that Xerxes throws at the very beginning.

David: That's right.

Seth: Because the hope of God's people isn't self indulgence, orgiastic, shallow beauty, but the wedding supper of the lamb. Fulfilling, satisfying.

David: Yep.

Seth: Like an actual. And actually like in self. Like, indulgence. The right way.

David: Yes. Like, because it's. Because of what it's celebrating. It's not celebrating self indulgence for self indulgence's sake. What that final feast was celebrating was a salvation of all people or the salvation of God's people.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so like. And like, that for us is what we will celebrate forever at the marriage supper of the lamb. We'll be celebrating the lamb who was slain for us. Like, and I think I do want to lean into this fact that like, like Jesus is the Jew sold for 10,000 talents of silver.

Seth: He is.

David: Like, that is why we can celebrate. That's why we can have hope in exile, is because Jesus allowed him, like the Jews were saved in this story.

Seth: Right.

David: But Jesus is the Jew who was not saved.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But he died and was allowed himself. Allowed himself to be sold so that he could purchase us out from exile, to purchase us from the penalty of sin and death and bring us into life, into an eternal feast with him.

Seth: I have so much to say about that. When we hit irony.

David: I know.

Seth: So excited. I'm so excited.

David: So many cool things to talk about. But for now, feast, feast.

Seth: There are only 25 instances of the word feast, the word banquet used here in Esther. And I think like over half of them in the Old Testament. Half of them are all in the book of the book of Esther.

David: Oh. There's like 25 in the old Testament.

Seth: And half of them are used here.

David: Wow. This is a book about feasting.

Seth: It's a book about feasting. There's a self indulge. There's an empire. There's the empire's feast and the people of God's feast. Yeah. We're invited to feast at the table of the one true God to come to the wedding supper of the lamb to celebrate him. And not our pride, to not our control that just slips away. The more we celebrate our own power, our own privilege, we'll find that it's ironically taken away from us by the same empire we think we're celebrating.

David: Yeah.

Seth: When we trust the wedding supper of the lamb, not even death can take it away.

David: So good. How do we live in the empire today? Especially in an affluent empire that celebrates feasting and self indulgence. We feast and we celebrate and we rejoice in our salvation.

Seth: Yes.

David: That in our salvation was not because I pulled myself by my own bootstraps or because I inherited a lot of money or because I have the corner office. We celebrate in the fact that I was dead and now I'm alive and like. And now we look around the empire today and we don't see people that we need to be jealous of in the empire that have more than we do. We see slaves. These people are in a harem.

Seth: Yeah.

David: These people are being blood sucked by the king and being oppressed and we've been set free.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, amazing. How do we.

Seth: Every week we go to the church and we take a feast. A feast?

David: Yes.

Seth: Jesus's body and Jesus blood for our salvation.

David: That's how we survive in exile. We feast on the one who will bring us out from exile. That's fun. Well, that's the introduction to the book of Esther.

Seth: We said a lot.

David: We said a lot.

Seth: There's a lot going on.

David: There's a lot going on. I cannot wait to continue through this book. So thank you guys for joining us and we will see you next time. 

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