Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Yes.
David: We are glad you're joining us. This is a first for many reasons. One, it is the first episode n- uh, for us to do, really, besides a few psalms, that aren't in the Torah.
Seth: Outsi-
David: [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, so this is [laughs] Yeah. I'm s-
David: So if this is your first of the Spoken Gospel podcast to see-
Seth: Right
David: ... or listen to, uh-
Seth: We have others [laughs]
David: We have, like, 75 others that are in the Torah. So Seth and I are very energetic 'cause this is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the first time out of the Torah for us, so.
Seth: And, like, uh, the, a narrative.
David: Yep.
Seth: I mean, there's been ele-
David: It's true. A lot of narrative in the Torah
Seth: ... narrative elements throughout the Torah, but this is a sustained piece of narrative that you read like a, more like you would read Jane Austen-
David: Yes
Seth: ... than you would read-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, uh, whatever.
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a law code.
David: So, so that's one, that's one new thing. The, the second new thing is we are filming this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So if you're listening to this on the podcast, um, it's actually being filmed right now, and we're gonna put it up on our YouTube channel-
Seth: Yep
David: ... YouTube.com/SpokenGospel. Or if you're on YouTube right now, hello.
Seth: Hello.
David: What's up? [laughs] Seth's looking directly to camera.
Seth: [laughs] Am I not supposed to do that?
David: Uh, so, th- I, I don't know, you know, that's a...
Seth: Well-
David: You probably can't hear. We, you know, traditionally, you're not supposed to-
Seth: I'm making eye contact with my, our followers
David: You're, you're connecting. [laughs]
Seth: I'm connecting with our people. Hello.
David: I see you.
Seth: I see you.
David: You are seen and loved.
Seth: I see you. [laughs]
David: Oh, my goodness. And then the third, uh, first is that this is the first episode that we are recording where we are both in the Spoken Gospel offices.
Seth: Yes.
David: So that's exciting.
Seth: When did you guys get the offices?
David: Uh, we moved in in November.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, so it's March now.
Seth: So fun.
David: And so, uh, yeah, we've been here, like, five months, and you came down from Kansas City to hang out with us for a few days, so-
Seth: That's exactly right
David: ... we're thankful for that. So anyway, we are starting the Book of Esther today.
Seth: Esther.
David: The Book of Esther.
Seth: I love the book of Esther.
David: I have fallen in love with this book. It is masterfully written.
Seth: It's a great story.
David: It's a great story, too. It's also just a very interesting story.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, yeah. But I-
Seth: I heard the story of Esther as a kid-
David: Yep, totally
Seth: ... and I probably did not actually hear the story of Esther as a kid.
David: Yeah, right?
Seth: I had this, like, really kind of, um, I mean, whitewashed vision of, like, Esther as this really virtuous person in the middle of a hostile place who saves her people, which is true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's all I got.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, like, there's so much more to the story of Esther than a powerful woman being faithful to God in Persia. That's there.
David: It's there.
Seth: But there's so much more.
David: Yeah. And so-
Seth: It's so fascinating
David: ... so what we're gonna do today, or what we're gonna try to do today is, um, uh, i- is kinda take on the first three chapters with an eye to the fact that the Book of Esther is best read as a cohesive whole.
Seth: Yeah, you can't really study chapter one of Esther without also thinking about chapter 10 of Esther.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's really difficult.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, because the whole s- story is a chiasm, which is-
David: Yeah, fancy word
Seth: ... fancy word, which just means that every part of the story has a parallel in another part of the story.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, if you think back to, like, our Leviticus podcast, we talked about how the Book of Leviticus is set up like a mountain-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and how a lot of Jewish literature has at its, as its climax the center of the story.
David: Yeah, the middle of the story.
Seth: And so the way Esther works is that they're, chapter one and two is paralleled by chapters nine and 10.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And chapter three is p- paralleled by chapter eight, and ch- the second half of chapter three is paralleled by the first part of chapter eight. And-
David: It's this mountain
Seth: ... and it's this mountain going up to the center, where you have this huge reversal happening-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... between the fortunes of Haman and the fortunes of Mordecai, who we'll introduce in a second.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that forms the central point of the entire story.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So as you read the Book of Esther, and it only takes about 20 minutes, 15 minutes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I think in double-speed, you can listen to it in fif-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... eight minutes. It's-
David: Pretty quick. I, yeah, I listened to it for, like, the last two weeks on my 15-minute drive to work.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I could, I could finish it from door to door.
Seth: Yeah, so it goes by really fast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so as you're listening, you should be reading it with an eye to say, say, "Oh, this happened over here."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "This same thing."
David: And in the same language, so, like, it's-
Seth: Same language.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, a really simple example is, so in chapter one and two, which we're about to talk about-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there's this huge feast-
David: Right
Seth: ... that displays the king's greatness, and at the very end, there's another huge feast that talks about Mordecai's greatness-
David: Right
Seth: ... and how great of a, how great of a, a human being and savior he is.
David: Yep, ultimate reversal.
Seth: Ultimate reversal. In chapter three, it talks about Haman's elevation to power, and in chapter eight, it talks about how Mordecai is elevated to power.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, in chapter three, you also have Haman's decree to, decree, like, his edict to kill the Jews.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And in chapter eight, you also have Mordecai's decree to save the Jews, like-
David: Yeah, and to kill those who were trying to kill them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And around that central moment when Haman's and Mordecai's, like, uh, fortunes are reversed, you have a feast on either side of it-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where Esther is asking the king to do something for her o- uh, either side. On one side of it, you have Haman setting up a, a gallows for Mordecai to be hanged on, and the other side, you have him being hanged on the gallows. Like, the whole-
David: That he set up, yeah.
Seth: The whole story has a parallel on the other side.
David: Yes.
Seth: So you can't talk about one half of the story-
David: Right
Seth: ... without talking about the other half.
David: So traditionally, we usually try to take on, like-... chapters at a time and really drill down, which we're gonna try to do still, but we will be making reference to the whole of the book as we go, 'cause you have to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to understand any of this rightly. So, um-
Seth: Our encouragement would be then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to read the book-
David: Read the book
Seth: ... every week-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we have a podcast on it.
David: Yep. If you're, if you're following along with this, just, uh, listen and read the book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then listen again, and read the book again, and you'll see new things every time. It's, it's really fun.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We've had a lot of fun studying this book.
Seth: It's been great.
David: Um, so, um, let's kinda set this story in its context.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? So the people of Israel are in exile. Um, they've been in exile, and this is even-
Seth: What is an exile?
David: So exile is, uh... And we just finished the Torah, so [laughs] we-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, so if you've, if you were with us in Deuteronomy, the people of God were living in Jerusalem after conquesting the land, and they disobeyed God. They broke the covenant, and so as a punishment for that, God told them this was gonna happen in the Torah.
Seth: In the Book of Deuteronomy, yeah.
David: He kicks them out of the land, drives them out, first with the Assyrians-
Seth: And the Babylonians
David: ... and then the Babylonians. And then, uh, God raises up a emperor named Cyrus in Syria.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and, uh, and yeah, and they all, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dispossess the land in different ways, um, until the land is having its Sabbath.
Seth: Right.
David: The land is, of, of Israel is resting, and now the Jews are in-
Seth: We're kind of in the middle of the exile narrative, so, like, like, we're, like... The, the exile covers a lot of the Biblical books, the Bible.
David: It does, yeah.
Seth: So we're ta- uh, most of the prophets.
David: All the prophets, really.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So-
Seth: And-
David: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah. There's, there's different stages. You know, early Isaiah is kind of, you know, on the, on the front end-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, maybe the Northern Kingdom has started to fall.
Seth: If you've read the Book of Daniel, that's, uh, that's right at the beginning of the exile.
David: Yeah, Nebuchadnezzar just is kinda coming in.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, and Persia's one of the empires that takes over during Daniel's reign.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and so Esther-
David: I said Syria when I should've said Persia earlier.
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so, and that's at the very end of the Book of Daniel. So Esther happens after, chronologically, the Book of Daniel.
David: Right, which, and, and, and s- and something to note here is if you've read Daniel and you've read Jeremiah, even if you haven't, this'll be helpful to know, there was this promise that, that this exile would last 70 years.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: The, 70 years have passed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and b- and that's because it wasn't meant to be a chronological 70 years of exile.
Seth: Yeah, Daniel reads the Book of Jeremiah, and he's like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... "70 years have passed, Lord. I've been in Babylon for 70 years. Are you coming back?"
David: Yep.
Seth: And then God tells Daniel, "No, 490 years."
David: Yeah, it's gonna be a lot longer.
Seth: Se- well, he says, "70 times 7."
David: 70 times 7, yep.
Seth: Meaning, like, the completion of the rest must occur.
David: Yep.
Seth: The completion of exile must c- occur.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, you were so disobedient, the land must lay fallow for a proportionate amount of time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The, the land must rest from your presence for a-
David: Yep
Seth: ... proportionate amount of time before you can return.
David: Yep.
Seth: So Esther is situated in that period of exile, suffering-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... disobedient punishment.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, and Esther is in Persia.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Mordecai.
David: And we'll, and we'll-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... read about a time after Esther, right? Which, with Ezra and Nehemiah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? They come after Esther.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is that right? When they-
Seth: Yes. Yes, they do
David: ... when they are sent by another Persian king to go rebuild the temple-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and to go back into the land of Jerusalem. So she's kinda situated between Daniel and Ezra and Nehemiah. Is that a good way to think about it?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, great.
Seth: If, if you are familiar with those books, that's a great way to think about it. [laughs]
David: No, yeah, sure. [laughs]
Seth: All you should know, long story short, is Israel disobeyed.
David: Yep.
Seth: They were taken. God sent the nations of Assyria and Babylon to destroy Israel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and displace most of its population. Israel, the people of God, have been scattered throughout the world, and there are small pockets-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the people of God throughout these various superpowers that control the world.
David: That's right. Some are in-
Seth: Persia
David: ... Persia. Some are in Babylon. Some are in Assyria.
Seth: That's right.
David: They're, some are in Egypt. They're all over the place.
Seth: And there's this consecrated, uh, concentrated, like, uh, um, like, people. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Kinda like population of Jewish people living in the capital city of Susa in Persia.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's where our story takes place.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So this is where we are.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and there's a few things to, to mention about exile, um, that, that are helpful when trying to understand the Book of Esther as a whole.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, one is the different pockets of people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that was really good to see because these, this edict will go out and, um, like, they send this edict out to all the corners of the territory to kill.
Seth: Yeah. It says that he, uh, the king oversees 127 provinces.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so it's multiple languages, multiple, like, governors, and so every time a, a things happened.
David: Yep. You have to s- disseminate information widely-
Seth: Right. Yeah
David: ... and in multiple languages.
Seth: And so the people of God are spread out through all of Persia's kingdom-
David: That's right
Seth: ... not just in the capital city.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but the other thing that is very, very unique to the Book of Esther that I think exile helps give us a framework for is the fact that God is not mentioned in the Book of Esther.
Seth: It is fascinating.
David: That we have a book of the Bible that is in the canon of scripture-
Seth: God is-
David: ... that does not have the word God in it. Like-
Seth: He's never mentioned
David: ... God's not mentioned. He is hauntingly absent, it seems.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And I think what's helpful is for us to understand that in, in, in the, in the, in the Old Testament mindset, but also in the Hebrew mind, that, um, proximity to Jerusalem and, like, being in the Promised Land was being near God. And, like, those two things go hand-in-hand.
Seth: Right.
David: So to be far from Jerusalem, be outside of the land, is to be absent from God.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so the fact that God's name is not in this exilic book makes a lot of sense.
Seth: Yeah, so, like, yeah, it's making, like, a, an, a poetic point.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, based on, like, scriptural principles.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The idea is, like, when you're far from Jerusalem, you're far from God's presence and power, so God's never mentioned.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and I think for, as modern readers, or as a non-believer coming to read the book, it's actually kind of a powerful apologetic as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, you experience or you assume the world is not run by God.
David: Yeah, you, you assume it works one way.
Seth: You assume the world works one way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You assume that all the p- the actions of powerful men and the viruses that are going around the world and everything, it's just, it's just chaos.
David: It, it happens, and it's all happenstance, and if you play your cards right and you get lucky, things might go your way, but they might not.
Seth: Yeah, and you can read the story of Esther that way.
David: You could.
Seth: You can s- read the story of Esther and you can say, "Wow, these people were interesting people for their time-
David: Yep
Seth: ... who accomplished some f- good things for their-
David: And they lucked out a couple times
Seth: ... their, their people, and they were able to use their political savvy to pull it off."
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: But-
David: Yeah, but-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... there are far too many coincidences, you know, if you would. There, uh, that, you know, that things just, just so happen to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... happen.
Seth: Well, maybe before we go to the coincidences-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so think about this. So y- you mentioned it already. There is, uh, this book is in the canon of scripture.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So you have a book that never mentions God in a book about the revelation of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: So one of the... I was reading a co- commentator, her name's, uh, Karen Jobes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: She's a great author.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and I've read, read multiple of her things, and she mentions the fact that actually the only way that you know God, one of the ways that you know God is present in the Book of Esther is because it's in God's revelation.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's because it's in the canon of scripture, and without the help of other scripture-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we actually wouldn't know that God is present in the Book of Esther.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, which I thought was super fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, so the point there is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that, um... What was my point I was making? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I was like, I lost, like I lost my own train of thought.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: Uh-
David: I think it is one good way to think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... about it is, like, its position in the canon, being in the Bible, is another way to, to, for us to know that God is at work.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Right.
Seth: So it's inviting you to say, "Okay, it can't be-
David: Right
Seth: ... that God isn't here-
David: Right
Seth: ... because this is in the book about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God's actions in the world, particularly when it doesn't seem like he's there."
David: Yeah. That is external evidence coming to bear upon the internal content of Esther.
Seth: Yes.
David: But I think there are also internal evidences-
Seth: There is
David: ... of God's operation in this book.
Seth: That's exactly right. So I think what that's supposed to tell us is if you're looking at your life right now and saying, "God's nowhere to be found."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "My life is out of control. I'm controlled by people and forces more powerfully than, powerful than me."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "I, every time I try to exercise some self-determination, it seems to go wrong. I can't seem to make any traction in this area of l- my life or that area of my life. I always seem to be sick and suffering. My friends always seem to be losing their jobs. The economy seems to be tanking." You're looking at life the way the Book of Esther describes it.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, it seems chaotic.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It seems like God is not present.
David: Right.
Seth: But the fact that the Book of Esther is in God's canon of scripture should tell you that it's not all like it seems.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: There is a God behind the scenes because the book itself is in God's revelation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, this i- God is revealing himself in the minutia, in the injustice, in the reversals, in the coincidences-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the strange things that happen-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in your life, and even in the pal- halls of power.
David: Yeah, and I think that's the point I would wanna double down on here, is that, um, that, uh, that is the different picture of God we get in the Book of Esther that's so important, I think, for us especially as modern believers to see, is that the Book of Esther gets to show us the God behind the scenes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because, like, what we've seen in the Bible so far, you know, in, like, the Torah and stuff-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was, like, a God who sends plagues and speaks directly to Moses and shows up in a burning bush. And, you know-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... and it's like that's the kind of God we've seen, one that speaks with thunder and lightning-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and manifests himself in theophanies and physical presence and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and shining glory.
Seth: Pillars of cloud-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and pillars of fire. Yeah.
David: It's like he fills the tabernacle, and it's like a lot of us cannot connect with that kind of a manifestation of God.
Seth: Well, yeah.
David: And sure, if I saw that-
Seth: Our whole world-
David: Like, that'd be great
Seth: ... looks like the Book of Esther.
David: Yes. But, like, our, our day-to-day life is, is just like, "Where's God? It seems random. I think he might be there. Maybe he's working something out. I don't really know."
Seth: The Bible tells me he should be here.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I don't see that reality, and neither would the people in exile.
Seth: Yep.
David: Like, they are living apart from God, wondering, "Is God working everything that seems so awful? Is he behind the scenes doing something, or are we actually alone?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think the Book of Esther comes to exiles who don't know that God is actively working and says to them, "Even when you can't see him, God is working."
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, I think that's what's happening.
Seth: Despite what it looks like, God is in control.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that was the through line.
David: That was the through line for Daniel.
Seth: I think it's a really good through line for Esther, too. Despite what it looks like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God really is in control.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, yeah.
David: Yeah, and I think one of the things we see God's control in is his, um, i- is this, like, the, the, the foil of the king.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like, so you have this king, Ahasuerus.
Seth: So let's, let me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so this is us getting into the, into the book.
David: Yeah, let's get into the text. So we, we meet this king.
Seth: So the first chapter-
David: Yep
Seth: ... introduces this really powerful king.
David: Yeah. He's the, yeah, he's the King of Persia. Ahasuerus, uh-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is how the ESV translates it, but it's King Xerxes.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, but more importantly, uh, at the end of the book, uh, there's this letter to Mor- that Mordecai writes, and he just references him as the king.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And that's because Mordecai takes his name out of it, even though, like, if you're sending the king's edict, it should be, like, "From the capital city of Persia-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from the hand of King Xerxes."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And he just says, "The king."
Seth: So what you're referring to at the very end of the book-
David: The very end of the book, yep
Seth: ... there's an edict that goes out to all the people to, uh, all the Jews to celebrate the feast of Purim.
David: Right.
Seth: And Mordecai's writing this edict, and instead of saying, "King Xerxes-
David: Yep
Seth: ... did all this," he just says, "The king-
David: Yes
Seth: ... did all this."
David: Yes, and that is, I think-
Seth: It's a clue
David: ... a bel- and he's a believer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's a Jew. Like, he's part of God's covenant people, and that's his way of saying, "I know who's actually in control."
Seth: Yes.
David: "The king has declared this edict."
Seth: Yes.
David: And I think that is, we're, we're supposed to see in the king, in his failures-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and in some of his, like, representations and the way he's described-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we're supposed to see, um, contrasts and similarities-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... with Yahweh.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And yeah.
Seth: You could even, like, picture him. So in a world that doesn't seem like God's, God exists or God's active, you do have people trying to take that position.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so King Xerxes-Acts like God.
David: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Seth: His laws cannot be changed.
David: That's right. He, his kingdom covers the known world.
Seth: His, um, he's described with the same language used in the rest of the Bible only ever used to describe God.
David: That's right.
Seth: When you come into his presence-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and you experience his wrath-
David: Yep
Seth: ... when you experience, you pray to him. There, there's some-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... languages here that, like-
David: Yeah, when Esther goes and petitions him later, those words are used for God whenever-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we come and petition him in prayer, like in Psalms and things. Yeah.
Seth: It talks about his glory.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and so, and even, like, in the first chapter-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it goes into, like, really explicit detail about how beautiful his palace is.
David: Yes, and some of the things it talks about, the, the, the curtains, the colors, the cloth are all temple language.
Seth: Right.
David: This is like the tabernacle again.
Seth: Yes.
David: And we're told that, like, there's this inner court that the king dwells inside of, and if you go into that without being invited, you die. Like, this should remind us of Leviticus.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, this is like, he is setting up, like, Esther is setting up the king-
Seth: Yes
David: ... as a foil against which we should understand Yahweh.
Seth: In a world that looks like God's not in control-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and that God's not present, there's always going to be a king-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and a kingdom that presumes itself to be God.
David: Right.
Seth: It presumes itself to be the final determiner, the final power-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the final say-so in the land.
David: Right.
Seth: So this goes back to another important way that we, we need to read the Book of Esther, is that the Book of Esther is meant for people beyond the Jews living in Susa-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when King Xerxes was in power. Like, it, it, this is meant for a broader audience, and we should be seeing not just the Israel's salvation, but all of our salvation-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the story. So I think what we're gonna try to do through this podcast more and more is try to give you a category for thinking about these f- characters.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's not just King Xerxes.
David: Right.
Seth: He's the king of the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's not just, uh, the kingdom of Persia.
David: Yep. It-
Seth: It's the kingdom of darkness.
David: It's every evil kingdom.
Seth: It's every evil kingdom.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's not just Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's all God's people everywhere.
David: Throughout all generations.
Seth: Throughout.
David: God's chosen people. Yep.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, and yeah, a- absolutely right. Um, I think that that is what the Book of Esther is trying to do, is to set up almost eternal categories-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for us through all of these different characters.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we'll get into a few of those. Uh, which-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm really excited. Uh, before we leave the con- the concept of the king.
Seth: Okay, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, a- and, like, trying to show that God's people, that, that, sh- trying to show God's covenant people that God is still in control.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It, it's just interesting how the king is always shown to be kinda this puppet that-
Seth: Yeah, he-
David: He never makes any decisions by himself.
Seth: Yeah, he's, he's, like, always drunk.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he always listens to whatever anybody, uh-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the person closest to him suggests.
David: Yep, and so, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah, so, like, uh, Haman will come in later and be like, "Hey, you should kill all the Jews." And-
Seth: And he's like, "Okay, sure"
David: "Yeah, sure, here's an edict."
Seth: Well, in the very first pages, like, everyone tells him to make an edict about all women in his kingdom. He makes the edict-
David: That's right
Seth: ... when he's drunk. Haman comes when he's drunk to, like, make this other edict.
David: Yep.
Seth: So he makes the, the edict then. Even when Esther comes and makes her plea to save the Jews, he's drunk. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and he, and he just does it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like he, like [laughs]
David: Which is directly contradicting himself.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so he's just this puppet king, and, like, I think what we're, what God is trying to show his people and all people is that this is every king to me.
Seth: Mm.
David: No matter how powerful the king is, no matter how-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... expansive his empire, I whisper in his ear, and he does what I say.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that is God's control over every kingdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and he can use tiny little Esther or wicked Haman. You know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he can use anybody, but ultimately, he sits on the highest throne and moves kingdoms and kings wherever he wants.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that is what we're supposed to see in the bumbling malleability of this king of Persia.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think, I think that's super helpful. So as you prepare yourself to read the Book of Esther, like, try to put yourself in, like, the imaginative shoes, like, that we're offering you. Like, we live in a king, we live in a kingdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... ruled by a king who thinks his way should be l- his way should be God's way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, his way is God's way.
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Seth: The way that he thinks about the world, the way that he structures his government, or the decisions that he makes are unchangeable, infallible, that everyone should bow to him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That king exists in every presidential office-
David: Yep
Seth: ... every prime minister, every chairman's office throughout the globe. There are, and even not politically, maybe just culturally or even, like, spiritually and demonically.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we'll get to some of that, that in the Book of Esther, too.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But there are kings who assume they are God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we live in their kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: And as people who, like Esther and Mordecai, are the people of God in the kingdom of the, the, of the evil king-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... how do we live? How do we live when it seems like God's not on the, on the throne-
David: Right
Seth: ... but Xerxes is?
David: Yeah.
Seth: When the evil one is-
David: Is on the throne
Seth: ... how do we live in that tension?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what the Book of Esther is inviting us to see. [gentle music] So let's get into the story.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So after there's this grand banquet at the c- the king is getting drunk at.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's kind of a crazy party. It goes for, I think, 187-
David: 180 days
Seth: ... and then there's a seven-day-
David: Oh
Seth: ... capstone to it all. [laughs]
David: Oh, great. Great.
Seth: They needed that.
David: After 180 days of partying, you know what I want? Seven more days of partying.
Seth: Seven more days of partying.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, and it's supposed to, that's supposed to communicate to you just the level of, like, opulence-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... wastefulness, uh, self-indulgence-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that, uh, this king and this kingdom represents.
David: Right. 'Cause what does the edict say that he sends out to everyone?
Seth: There's only one rule at the party. There's no compulsion.
David: And what does that mean?
Seth: It means, it kind of, kind of sounded the opposite, but it basically means do whatever you want.
David: There are no rules.
Seth: There-
David: The only rule is that there are no rules.
Seth: The only rule is-... everything's to your taste
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, which-
David: Have you ever, did you ever see 300?
Seth: I did see 300.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, like, the, the movie, and, like, Xerxes is in it.
Seth: That's right, he is in it.
David: And he's, like, this tall, golden-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... king, and, like, it, there's a scene that shows the parties that he used to throw.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so he was famous, even in Hollywood culture, they picked up on this-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... that Xerxes threw these nasty-
Seth: Gross
David: ... gross, orgy, drunken parties.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you're supposed to see a kingdom ruled by-
David: Hedonism
Seth: ... hedonism and by, like, aesthetics. Like, they're, part of the reason-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like, it's, like, all about beauty. It's all surface level.
David: Yeah, their floor is made of things that normally would go on, like, a ring, like a mother of pearl. Uh, they just walk on that stuff.
Seth: Yeah. It's just this opulent, over-the-top, self-indulgent, um, kind of, yeah, self-indulgent-
David: Yep
Seth: ... party.
David: Right, which, like, should, we- it was just a great way to cue us in today as, as, like, when you see kingdoms flexing like this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... know that this is evil.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, whenever you have leaders and kings and rulers talking about how great they are and, and how much wealth they have and, and building great buildings and talk [laughs] like-
Seth: Feels, yeah. Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's evidence-
David: It's evidence
Seth: ... that we live in the kingdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The kingdom of Persia is an eternal kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: And we still live in it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Our peop- we as people are still, the people of God are still in that kingdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And all the rulers of the world are still taking their cues from the, the, the, uh, the, the king.
David: Xerxes.
Seth: The Xerxes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're still taking, we still live in the kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: All of this is evidence that we haven't progressed beyond it.
David: Yeah. [laughs] Right. Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: So during this, dur- during this party, the k- the king wants to show his wife off 'cause she's apparently very beautiful.
Seth: So again, what's, what's being showed off there? The beauty, the opulence.
David: Oh, right. Yeah, same thing.
Seth: Like, there's this, like, there's, like, this pr- like, uh, preference for shallow beauty.
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause again, like, how much of our culture is still a part of this kingdom? Beauty, shallowness, parading women around-
David: Oof
Seth: ... is still, like, a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... central part of life in the kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: It was then, it is now.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So she, he says, "Come out and show your br- beauty in front of all my drunk men."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And she's like, "No."
David: She goes, "No." And I'm like, good for Queen Vashti.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Get it, girl. [laughs]
Seth: That's, that's, that's how I feel about it. Um, and then it, and then he goes into a rage.
David: Which is, like, a classic move, too, for this story, where it's like this great king with all this opulence to show, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his partygoers his wife's beauty.
Seth: And-
David: And his wife is just like, "No." And it just sends everything into a tailspin.
Seth: It's just-
David: Which is, like, a foreshadowing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of what's gonna happen with him and Esther.
Seth: Yeah, he, he is actually powerless.
David: Yeah, he's powerless.
Seth: His wife won't listen to him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Apparently, he can make unchanging laws-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but his wife won't listen to him. And I mean, again, it's not a good thing. [laughs] But it's poi- it proves a point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, so she won't come. He flies into a rage.
David: Yep.
Seth: And all of his counselor, he banishes the queen.
David: Mm. Mm.
Seth: And all of his counselors come to him and say, "Hey, if, uh, news of this is gonna get out, and if news of this gets out, none of the women in the kingdom are gonna listen to their husbands."
David: Right.
Seth: "You should tell all women to, uh, bow down to their husbands-
David: Right
Seth: ... and honor them the way that Queen Vashti should have-
David: Should have
Seth: ... should have honored you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's like, "That's a great idea."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he signs it off, but nobody would've known about it.
David: No.
Seth: It-
David: He just, he just aired his own dirty laundry-
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: ... to the whole kingdom.
Seth: There was all the governors of his kingdom that would've been there.
David: Yep.
Seth: So maybe there's something to be said for, like, "Hey, let make an example of Vashti for your governors."
David: Yeah.
Seth: No one here. But what he did by making an edict to all lands, in all languages, to all people just exploded the problem that he had-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the first place. Everybody knows that the king is not listened to by his own wife.
David: Was humiliated by his wife.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. It's hilarious.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It is fascinating. It's an ironic... Well, we'll talk about irony a good bit-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in here, but it's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's an i- it's an ironic, like, moment where, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the king who has all power, when he wants to use that pow-
David: Just, just played himself as powerless to his kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's hilarious. Yeah.
Seth: So, uh, in that, the king finds out that he's lonely because he doesn't have a wife anymore.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, he doesn't have a queen anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and his counselors come to him and again say, "Hey, I have an idea. Like, we can collect for you [laughs] all the-
David: [laughs] I just thought of how his, his, his, his court, like, gui-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... guides are, like, the, the dude in the romantic comedy. He's like, "Let's get you a rebound, man." [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "Dude, dude, there's so many fish in the pond."
Seth: [laughs] They're just like the classic romantic comedy rebound guys.
David: Yes.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And they come to him and they say, "Here's a gr-..." Except, here they're a little more brutal-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... than the rebound guys because [laughs] the rebound guys, "Let's just go trolling for girls in bars." Here, "Let's kidnap all the beautiful women in the kingdom."
Seth: Oh, my gosh. So intense.
David: So they say, "Hey, king, you don't n- you need a wife."
Seth: Yep.
David: "What if we go and collect all the beautiful virgins from all your kingdoms? You can sleep with each one of them successively, and then choose which one you prefer to be your king based on their sexual performance."
Seth: So next up on The Bachelor.
David: Yeah. [laughs] So-
Seth: Esther, brought to you by ABC.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Yes. So, like, yes. So a lit- we literally have a TV show based-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on that similar pre-
David: Here in America
Seth: ... premise where-
David: It's called The Bachelor
Seth: ... where, uh, a couple women will sleep with one guy, and he chooses his favorite-
David: Yep
Seth: ... from among them.
David: Now, watchers of The Bachelor would disagree with that statement.
Seth: Yes, but all you need to say is that it's evidence we live in the kingdom.
David: It is.
Seth: We s-
David: It's just like, da- here, here we've gathered all the most beautiful, eligible bachelorettes from around the nation to come and date this one guy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You give, like, even the opening night, he gives, like, this thing called the first impression rose.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And it's, "Well, who's the hottest?" You know, he's like, "Here you go."
Seth: Yeah, and then-
David: And then they have this thing at the end called the fantasy suite.
Seth: And what's in every one of those TV shows? Champagne.
David: Yep.
Seth: Beautiful locations.
David: Everyone's getting drunk. Yep.
Seth: Everyone's going to, like, to Greece and to Florida-
David: Yeah, right
Seth: ... or the, the outback.
David: Greece and Florida. [laughs]
Seth: I don't know. [laughs]
David: All these beautiful places, Greece and-
Seth: The Keys
David: ... Florida. [laughs]
Seth: But like-
David: No offense to Florida. I love Florida
Seth: ... the opulence-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the drinking-
David: Totally
Seth: ... the partying-
David: The sex
Seth: ... the sex-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the facade-
David: Yep
Seth: ... of beauty. Like, we still live in the kingdom.
David: We do.
Seth: We still live in the kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the people say, "Okay, and let's do this party. Let's do this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... let's do this competition."
David: Yep.
Seth: And the king says, "Well, that's a great idea."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I would love to have sex with hundreds of women and then decide my favorite."
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, so the kingdom is brutal.
David: It is very brut- very brutal. Yeah
Seth: It's not just superficial. It's not just funny.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's not just kinda stupid like The Bachelor is.
David: It's horrific.
Seth: It's grotesque.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's authoritarian.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's dep- I'm gonna try, I've tried to think of words to describe a king who would kidnap the women from every region and then rape them-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to determine his-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... determine his next queen.
David: Yep. I think it's important to lean in on that and use that language because I know when the story of Esther has been told, and I've heard it told, it's like, "And Esther came and she got to spend a year making herself beautiful, and then she went before the king and did a runway show and then left."
Seth: Yeah.
David: No.
Seth: Verse 8 of-
David: [laughs] No
Seth: ... chapter 2 says, "Esther was taken."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He, she was taken. She was-
David: Yep
Seth: ... kidnapped. This is forcible. She was given all this cosmetics.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, but-
David: And, and like the word custody is used there, taken into the, like the custody. Like she was imprisoned-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like into a brothel.
Seth: Yeah, so the king's harem-
David: This is sex trafficking.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what this is.
Seth: So she was invited into the king's harem, and a harem was essentially just a building where the king housed all his potential sexual partners-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... normally for the use of, like political power.
David: Yep.
Seth: So he would say, "I'll, I'll, I'll bring your daughter here, and this like seals, I'll have sex with her. That seals our bond between-
David: Yep
Seth: ... our two nations." And he wouldn't necessarily sleep with them again.
David: Yep.
Seth: It acted a function like, like a prison for a lot of these women.
David: Yep.
Seth: 'Cause they would come, sleep with the king once, be consigned to the harem-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and then live a lonely exiled life in the king's harem.
David: Yep.
Seth: So har-
David: And there were, there were these two harems. Did you pick up, did you pick up on that?
Seth: No, no, I didn't.
David: So like Esther is in this beauty prep school-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... comes in, is raped by the king.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then she goes to a second harem, it says.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And like that's her retaining cell, and it says, after it says the second harem, until she is called back by name by the king-
Seth: Right
David: ... which probably wouldn't happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's, it's, it's, it's grotesque.
David: It's horrible.
Seth: And again, let's make another modern parallel here, the fact that we still live in the kingdom. Like we don't have the resour- most people don't have the resources to house 500 sexual partners-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and then choose whichever one they want. But we do have cell phones, and our harems are just digital now.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, like pornography-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is our modern version of the digi- of a harem.
David: Yep.
Seth: We still live in the kingdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like we are not, have not escaped, uh, the world that Esther-
David: Right
Seth: ... is describing.
David: Or thing- or things like Tinder.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like, no, no, based on physical, no. Oh, yes-
Seth: No
David: ... I'll sleep with you. Okay, next.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? And like we just still live in this, in this kingdom.
Seth: Yeah. We s-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah. We could see the evidence for it everywhere.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, so then we're introduced, so we, we kind of ba- s- basically said Esther is one of these women.
David: Yeah, Esther gets taken, and she is one of the people of God. She's a-
Seth: Yep
David: ... Jew, and she, her parents have died p- previous to this.
Seth: She was adopted by her uncle Mordecai.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, what's kind of fascinating, it takes us so long to get to the title character of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, the book. But here they are.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, do you r- why is it, why does it take so long?
David: That's a good, that's a good question. I think it's because the emphasis of the story is on kingdom, not necessarily Esther.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so, yeah, it's the title character of the book, but I think we're meant to be couching this whole thing in the idea of kings and kingdoms-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... a- and not necessarily in the bravery of a, of a woman. Now, like, like we said at the beginning, that's part of it.
Seth: That's part.
David: I don't wanna downplay-
Seth: Right
David: ... that role, especially-
Seth: But the main point is-
David: ... of her as an intercessor
Seth: ... but really in the story, she's not the main character.
David: She's not. Mor- really the main battle is between what we'll see in chapter three between Mordecai and Haman.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we'll get there, but I think it starts with the kingdom because that is the setting, and the overall purpose-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of this book is to show us who moves kingdoms, who's in charge-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who will save God's people.
Seth: When everything looks like God's not visible-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is God still there?
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, that's the c- point-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the book is asking.
David: And that's why he spends so much time opening up on the opulence of a kingdom and then focusing on the, um, like the stupidity-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of this king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because, like, these are the kings you wanna trust in? Y- these are the kings you think while you're in exile are really in control, these-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... bumbling idiots?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Of course not. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so I think that's why-
Seth: Okay
David: ... we, we, we spend so much time before we get to Esther.
Seth: And so she's invi- she's-
David: Invited [laughs]
Seth: ... invited, she's kidnapped into this beauty pageant. And so here's a really interesting moment for Esther.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like, we, I mean, this is, this is grotesque.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is awful. But she's powerless to do anything.
David: Mm.
Seth: So what do you do as a person of God when the culture demands from you superficial beauty, sexual prowess, and in her case, maybe less so in ours, but like sh- like she's f- being forced to perform sexually for her s- her survival or like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like she's, it's gonna happen.
David: Yep.
Seth: So she's in this kinda awful situ- situation. Does she resist the king when she spends her night with him, or does she try her hardest to please the king?
David: Right, in order to gain favor.
Seth: In order to gain favor.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, wow, which is-
David: But there's, and, but it, it, this is a gray-
Seth: Okay
David: ... it's, this, this book has a lot of gray areas to it.
Seth: So that's probably good to name right here.
David: Yeah, because, um, we don't need to try to morally reconcile Esther.... in the story because she is not meant to be a moral, um, paradigm that we live up to.
Seth: So what you're saying there is, I've heard, I've heard versions of the Book of Esther. Pe- people preach and say, "Esther is the paragon of godliness."
David: Mm.
Seth: I've also heard versions of the story of Esther, "Esther's a terrible person."
David: Yeah, no.
Seth: She does- she hides the fact that she's Jewish. She hi- doesn't keep in the kosher laws. She's apparently great in bed.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, she's a morally compromised human.
David: Right.
Seth: And what you're saying is, like, actually, you're not meant to make that judgment at all.
David: No, the, the, the right interpretation, I think, and what I think a lot of people we've been reading have been saying is the, the best way to understand Esther is to let both of those things stand on-
Seth: Mm
David: ... opposite sides and live in the tension between the two.
Seth: Mm.
David: Because this whole book is tension.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the whole book is irony and reversal. And so we don't need to go, like, no, Esther was, she did this against, she didn't wanna do this, and, like-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... it's like, no, let's, we don't need to go that far to try to, to make her, you know, like, morally pure, perfect.
Seth: Right.
David: Neither do we need to say, yeah, she compromised everything and gave it up and she's this worldly, you know, whore, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: And like, no. Like, there's good and bad.
Seth: Right.
David: And we, and it's not our job and it's not what the Book of Esther's trying to show us to find which is good and bad.
Seth: Because the point isn't be like Esther-
David: No
Seth: ... or be like Mordecai.
David: Right.
Seth: It's-
David: It's-
Seth: ... who's, who, which king does-
David: Who's in control?
Seth: Who's in control.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whose kingdom do you align yourself with?
David: Yes.
Seth: And at this point, it seems as if Esther has aligned herself with the kingdom of Xerxes.
David: That's right.
Seth: The kingdom of the world.
David: Yep.
Seth: She, in all intents and purposes, is a product of the kingdom. She's beautiful.
David: Yep.
Seth: She's good in bed.
David: Yep.
Seth: She has all the opulence of the, the fine oils and-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... myrrh's and well-dressed-ness.
David: Yeah, Mor- Mor- Mordecai told her not to reveal the fact that she was Jewish, to just try to be Persian.
Seth: She's more beautiful than Vashti, apparently. Like, all-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, like, shallowness of chapter one-
David: Is now on her
Seth: ... is on her.
David: Yep.
Seth: She's a product of the kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I bet you almost anything, you ask any woman who, alive today, they will feel the pressure to be like the kingdom.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Whatever beauty standards-
David: Yep
Seth: ... whatever dress standards, whatever ex- sexual expectations are placed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, on, uh, people in the kingdom in Xerxes' day are still placed on women today.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there is not only double standards, but, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... sexist, misogynistic standards-
David: Yep
Seth: ... which women are held to-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that they are, are constantly being asked, "Will you be a product of the kingdom? Will you conform to its ways, or will you consider a different way?"
David: Mm.
Seth: And so all we know about Esther at this point, though, is that she seems to be a product of the kingdom.
David: Right.
Seth: Even her name, Esther.
David: Yes, yes.
Seth: Uh, so her, her re- her Jewish name is, uh, Hadassah.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Which I think that means, like, myrtle or something.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like a tree.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, but her Persian name is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Esther.
David: Yep, which is like the Persian god Ishtar.
Seth: Yes, so-
David: Yeah, it sounds just like... It's, it's the same name.
Seth: Ishtar, Esther.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, it's like, it's a very similar-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, she is a product of the Persian gods.
David: Yep. And her uncle, his Persian name is Mordecai.
Seth: Which apparently... So I thought Mordecai was always a Jewish name.
David: Oh, no, sorry, yeah. But it's, it has this, it has this, uh, Persian referent.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So Mordecai is his name, but it sounds an awful lot like Marduk.
Seth: Right, and I think it's even, like, Mordecai's a perversion of the ch- original Hebrew to make it sound-
David: Sound more like-
Seth: ... more like Marduk
David: ... Persian, which is, like, even in his name, he's c-
Seth: And Marduk's another Persian god.
David: Oh, sorry, yeah, Marduk is, is, like, the consummate Babylonian god.
Seth: Yep, so-
David: And, like, like, he is, Marduk's the heavy hitter.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so, like, Mordecai, even his name is some kind of weird cultural blending of Israel and Persia.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is, like, the opposite of what the entire Biblical narrative was hoping for God's people.
Seth: Right, there's all this emphasis on don't intermingle-
David: Don't intermarry, yeah
Seth: ... intermarry with other people.
David: Don't worship their gods, and now you, your, your name has been changed to sound like another god.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You intermarried, so you're culturally compromised, and now you're religiously compromised because you sound like this other god.
Seth: So you have this situation where, like, you're intractably connected to the kingdom.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I would, I would guess that all of us feel this way.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, if we were try to, like, we, how do you separate the people of God from the kingdom that we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... live in right now? Like, as a human being in the 21st century living in America, like, I actually can't pull out of myself all the ways that I'm culturally-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... American from the ways that I'm culturally Biblical.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, or I'm a part of the people of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: My identity as a Christian in Christ always seemed to be so intermixed-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with American idolatries, uh, Western idolatries-
David: Right
Seth: ... liberal idolatries, what, conservative i- idolatries that, like, I don't know how to pull apart-
David: Right
Seth: ... the two halves of myself.
David: Yeah, to be in the world but of the world is far harder than that verse makes it sound.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so we have pictures of what that means. Like, these people are intricately connected into the kingdom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... yet somehow also part of the people of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and so let's switch... What do you wanna say?
David: Well, I, I think it's just interesting to, I think, I think seeing Ishtar and Marduk and Esther and Mordecai, uh, is also another, um, way that God is trying to show us in the Book of Esther, um, what's, what's the main point.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it is that these false gods, Ishtar and Marduk, are going to be the downfall of, or, or, or even, like, end up being in control of the kingdom of Persia, because Esther and Mordecai-
Seth: Mm
David: ... are ending going, are, are, are, are going to end up, like, being the ones who seal the edicts and make the policies and turn the k- the heart, the, the king, the, the heart of the king.
Seth: What you're saying is that the nations that sent Israel into exile, Persia-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Babylon-
David: Assyria
Seth: ... Assyria, they had these gods that-Were in control of those kingdoms.
David: Yep. And they-
Seth: Marduk-
David: Yep, Marduk
Seth: ... Ishtar, uh-
David: Baal
Seth: ... Baal, Tiamat
David: And they thought that it was because of their gods that they were able to overpower Yahweh.
Seth: So they, two people of God come in. They rename them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... based off their presuppositions about who's in charge.
David: Yep, trying to say like, "Look, our gods have overshadowed your Yahweh God."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "So you, you won't be Joshua, like, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Yahweh saves. You know, Yeshua, Yahweh saves."
Seth: "You won't be symbols of God's provision or whatever."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You'll be symbols of our conquest over you."
David: That's right. "Our gods have beaten your God, so we're renaming you."
Seth: And so the fact-
David: Right
Seth: ... that those god, those, so Esther and Mordecai, Ishtar and Marduk rise up into Ba- Babylon and save God's people-
David: That's right
Seth: ... is a total reversal.
David: God is saying, "I am in charge, not these false gods. And I'll prove it to you."
Seth: Right.
David: "I'll use your own gods-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... to topple your own kingdom."
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Like, that is, so I think even the whole point is to show that this is, like we've said before, huge cosmic conceptual categories to show a major battle between good and evil, God and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Satan that's happening-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... here. And nowhere is that seen more clearly than in chapter 3.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: We should name also, just before we move to chapter 3-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Mordecai is, uh, Esther's adoptive father.
David: Yes.
Seth: He also encourages Esther to submit to the king's beauty pageant.
David: Right.
Seth: He doesn't resist-
David: No
Seth: ... um, the kidnapping. I don't even know if he could.
David: I don't think he could either.
Seth: But like-
David: But we're told that he encouraged her to go. Yeah, so.
Seth: That's exactly right. Um, and then Mordecai, uh, is placed in the king's, uh, palace.
David: So he is outside the king's palace, and he operates as a temple guard, basically.
Seth: Yep.
David: So, like, he's kind of like a new Levite, which is very interesting.
Seth: Fascinating. I didn't think about that.
David: You know, 'cause it was part of the job of some of the tribes of Levi to stand around the tabernacle-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to guard it. So if we have this inner Holy of Holies with all its opulence and its curtains and its fine twined linen and its stones in the middle, and then you have this temple court outside, and Mordecai is to guard it. And we know he does this because, uh, later, uh, he hears of a plot to overthrow the king, and he ends up revealing it to the king and s-
Seth: Yeah, through Esther
David: ... and saving he, he operates as the guard.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's his job, is temple guard.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So not only is he a, a- assimilated into the kingdom, he is part of the infrastructure of guarding the kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, he is integrated into this thing.
Seth: Yes. And so where is, where does it say that he is from Kish and he is-
David: Oh, it's, it's somewhere in 2 and 3.
Seth: So, so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so okay. So let's go back to this, like, intricately connected.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's guarding the presence of the king of the world, and he is responsible for protecting him, providing for him, but at the same time, he's also identified as from the tribe of Benjamin and from the man named Kish. Now, that sounds like, oh, that's just a weird-
David: Random
Seth: ... random fact about Mordecai. Wrong.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Super-
David: Super wrong
Seth: ... super important.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Benjamin and Kish were the descent- King Saul.
David: King Saul. They were descendants of King Saul.
Seth: He was a descendant of King Saul. King Saul was the first king of Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he was from the tribe of Benjamin. So by including this fact here, what that's cluing us into is not only is he kind of this intertwined person of God with, uh, with the kingdom of the world, he's also represents the kingly line of God's people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is supposed to rule and reign God's kingdom. Like, that's not, that's his lineage. That's what he was supposed to do, but he's not doing that-
David: That's right
Seth: ... until-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Haman.
David: Until chapter 3 when we meet this, this Haman. So time is fast-forwarded, right? We've, we've-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... jumped ahead o- over a year.
Seth: Yeah. A good, a good j- good chunk of time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And now there is this man named Haman.
Seth: And the first thing we're told about him-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is that he is an Agagite.
David: Yep.
Seth: Which may, again, not mean anything to you, but King Saul was commanded by God to go and kill King Agag.
David: Agag. Agag, yeah.
Seth: Fra- the leader of the Amalekites.
David: The Amal- the Am- yeah, the Amalekites, yep.
Seth: Saul-
David: Yep
Seth: ... disobeyed.
David: Yep.
Seth: He allowed King Agag to live.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he went on and had his own people, and they, that nation stopped being called the Amalekites and started being called the Agagites.
David: Yep.
Seth: So the failure of King Saul to crush the kingdom of Agag is now coming back full circle in a-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in an irony.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, this reverse, reversing irony, and the kingdom of Agag will now-
David: Rule over the people of Israel
Seth: ... be in conflict. Is, he's second in command.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he now rules over the people of God.
David: Yep. Which this is, and this reversal is a repeat of the reversal that happens in the Promised Land to begin with. Like, in, back in, back in the Torah, God says, "Go in. You're gonna completely destroy the Canaanites and the Perizzites." You know, the Perizzites.
Seth: Yeah, the Perizzites. [laughs]
David: You know, I always like saying that.
Seth: The Perizzites. [laughs]
David: But, um, and you're gonna, you're gonna do this, a- and if you don't, they will be a thorn in your flesh.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And, like, and there will be-
Seth: Yep
David: ... this reversal. They will rule over you, and you will worship their gods.
Seth: Yes.
David: All of this is happening now.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, exactly right.
Seth: So Haman steps into his position of power as the vizier of, uh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Persia.
David: Right.
Seth: Second in command of Persia, and he demands that all of his subordinates bow down to him.
David: Yep.
Seth: Mordecai refuses to, not simply because he doesn't like Haman-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but because Haman represents an ancient battle between the people of God and the evil-
David: The enemies of God
Seth: ... the enemy, the evil empire of the world.
David: Yep.
Seth: The empire. And so he's like, "I refuse to repeat the sins of my father-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that caused this situation in the first place." Haman kinda overreacts and says, "I'm not just gonna kill Mordecai."
David: That's right.
Seth: "I wanna kill all Jews everywhere."
David: Right, which is a huge overreaction, but it again points to a larger battle.
Seth: This is not about Mordecai versus Haman.
David: No.
Seth: This is about the empire versus the people of God.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Haman and Mordecai are acting as, uh, what-
David: Representative heads
Seth: ... representative heads-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for this cosmic battle-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's always been going on.
David: Which should take us all the way back to the Garden of Eden.Which is there is going to be enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman, which is what God said, um, after the curse. And there, and that's the battle that takes place between Cain and Abel, between Jacob and Esau.
Seth: Yep.
David: Right? Between, and between their descendants as they, as they go in. Like, you know, uh, Ham's, Ham's descendant-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, from one of, one of son- uh, Noah's sons that was cursed is Canaan.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and but then one of his sons that he blessed, his descendants are the people of Abraham and the people of Israel. They have this big battle later on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's what the conquest of Canaan is. And so, like, over and over and over again throughout the Biblical narrative, it's the story of God's people fighting God's enemies, between the seed of the serpent, the servants of evil, versus the servants of good and God's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... chosen ones, like, fighting it out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So this is a cosmic battle happening in the Book of Esther.
Seth: And the definition of life in exile. So let's, like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... looping back round to, like, like, we're kinda just, like, trying to unpack the fact they're in exile. In exile, away from God's promised land, we will always be in conflict. Well, I mean, even in the promised land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... um, but we'll always be in conflict with the empires of the world.
David: Right.
Seth: There is always going to be an ongoing conflict between the people of God and the empire of the world when we are not with God.
David: Yep.
Seth: The, like, this is, this is the way it will always turn out.
David: Yeah, when God's name isn't mentioned.
Seth: When God's name isn't mentioned-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... we will always find ourselves at odds-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with the world around us.
David: Right. And so that's what's happening here between the story, uh, and this is really just setting the, setting the stage. So, and, and you have this, you have this edict, I just wanna say it again-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that goes out, um, that all Jews-
Seth: So Haman-
David: ... throughout all the kingdom-
Seth: Yeah, he wants to kill everybody
David: ... and so he built-
Seth: And so he wants to put it into law.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, and so in order to do that, he goes to King Xerxes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... gets him drunk, pays 10,000 pieces of silver-
David: Yep
Seth: ... uh, for the destruction of the representative head of the Jews.
David: Yep.
Seth: So [laughs] I mean, like, uh, that's Judas in, in Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: Ju- Judas paid silver-
David: So, yeah, or, and like-
Seth: ... to kill-
David: Yeah, and he says talents of silver.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which 10,000 talents is also the number Jesus uses in the parable of the unmerciful servant.
Seth: So-
David: Which is interesting. [laughs]
Seth: So just keep these numbers in your, keep these ideas in your mind. And the king, drunk-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the most powerful-
David: Yeah, okay
Seth: ... was like, "Sure, dude, that sounds great."
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, and-
David: Which is like, like, think about this. If you are an Israelite in exile, and you're thinking that the King of Persia is in charge, and maybe even a foil against which you're supposed to see Yahweh, doesn't this feel like how things actually are?
Seth: Hmm.
David: It seems like our enemies, the Agagites and the Canaanites-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and Babylon, they just came to God, and he was drunk-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and he just was like, "Yeah, sure, whatever. Do whatever you want. I don't care."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God is going to show-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... throughout Esther that that is not who he is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is not some dispassionate, drunk, aloof, flippant king that can be malleably-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... moved anywhere he wants. He has a plan for his people and will be faithful.
Seth: And look how it undermines even our ideas that, like, the king is actually in charge.
David: Hmm.
Seth: No, the, Persia is not what's the primary actor here. It's the empire of the world.
David: Yep.
Seth: This ancient battle-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... between the Agagites and the people of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is actually the one defining all the terms-
David: Right
Seth: ... in this story. It's not so much about Persia and th- their empire and whatever else, it's about this ancient conflict between the people of God and the people of the empire. And s- and so I think even today we can get really lost and say, "No, no, no, it's actually about the l- the, it's about the liberals being liberal."
David: Right, right, right.
Seth: "And that's the province. It's actually about the conservatives being conservative." No. The central, like, conflict in all nations at all times that live apart from the presence of God is the conflict between the empire and the people of God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and those things are alway... That is the defining conflict for all of political life in the world.
David: Hmm.
Seth: That's the battle that's going on.
David: Yep.
Seth: We do not wrestle with flesh and blood.
David: Right.
Seth: We wrestle against principalities and powers and the rulers in this present age.
David: Yep.
Seth: The Book of Esther is giving us a really vivid picture of what that looks like.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yes, Haman's a physical person in the story, but he represents a centuries ancient-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... battle between good and evil, the people of God and the people of the empire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's showing, like, Xerxes isn't who you worry about.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Worry about the evil one.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Don't worry about whoever's on the throne or in the-
David: Right
Seth: ... White House.
David: He can be moved however we need. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And he will be manipulated-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by the powers of darkness-
David: Right
Seth: ... to-
David: Maybe that's a good way to talk-
Seth: Right
David: ... about it, is, like, the power of darkness seen in Haman, the Agagite-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is like v- is like, is a picture of Satan operating behind the thrones of this world.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's, he's whispering. He's the consiglieri-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... whispering into the ear of the king, moving him wherever he wants.
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, what Go- but w- I think what Esther's trying to show us is what Psalm 2 shows us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, like, God's actually in control of every throne.
Seth: Yes.
David: He's the one who moves the heart of the king, you know?
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, that's what we'll see in the reversal of all this. I think as an exilic Jew reading this book, the first three chapters, like, "Yep, this is-
Seth: That-
David: ... what I expect."
Seth: This is life.
David: Everything's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... compromised, everything's terrible, and our enemies are in control.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then God's going to use all of that dark weight-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to then show this bright reversal-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at the end of the book and through, and through the middle. So we'll, we'll get to that reversal next week.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But before we go, we need to do what is our, the r- whole reason we exist-
Seth: [laughs] Yeah
David: ... as Spoken Gospel. And let's kind of, we, I think th- this one just had a really tight thread on it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so I didn't want, we didn't wanna break it up. Let's kinda work back through and, and go, okay, so in this dark empire-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and this puppet king and these horrific, flippant edicts-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and the people of God being oppressed in exile, how do we see, savor, and worship Jesus in these texts?
Seth: Oh. Before we get to the victory at the end?
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, in exile? Um-
David: Like, yeah, I mean, I think about how Jesus, he, he came, he came in, in exile. He did not, Jesus did not rise up in Jerusalem.He rose up in Galilee in Samaria
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah
David: Like, which is one of the oldest-
Seth: In Nazareth
David: ... in Nazareth. And like, but like one of the oldest, most originally deposed kingdoms, like one of the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... first kingdoms to fall in the Northern Kingdom's invasion. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, it wasn't like this last bastion of hope like the Maccabees-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... were trying to be in the Intertestamental period when they were held up in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, in the temple that, which is where we get-
Seth: I don't know any of that history, but-
David: Han- well, that's where we get Hanukkah from-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that whole idea.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, ah, Jesus came as an exile, and he came to exiles, you know, and-
Seth: Under the oppression of Rome
David: ... of a Roman king.
Seth: Of another-
David: The empire is still there
Seth: ... of another. Yeah.
David: This is still the seed of the serpent. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whether it was Herod or Caesar or Pilate, like the king was still on the throne and being animated by the evil one, and the evil one came and whispered into the ear and said, "Kill this Jew."
Seth: Fascinatingly-
David: And he was sold.
Seth: Yeah, and like, and think about the irony even, like in the fact that it is the Jewish people who are taking the place of Haman-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when Jesus is being crucified.
David: That's right.
Seth: They're the ones whispering to Pilate-
David: Yep
Seth: ... "Kill-
David: Yep
Seth: ... Mordecai."
David: The assimilation-
Seth: "Kill"
David: ... of Mordecai, Marduk, Esther, Ishtar-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the assimilation is complete.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They aren't some hybrid now. They are all in. The, even, even the people of God, without his help, would have been doomed to be the empire.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, and that's, that's the, that's the thing is like, as the people of God, we didn't like luck out and are somehow better. Like, we would have been the ones-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whispering in the king's ear and leading everything to evil, too.
Seth: I think if we're gonna say like, so how do, what is the good news here?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, let's just talk about the bad news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... too. Like, we live in the empire.
David: Yes.
Seth: This empire still exists. We still choose our partners based on their sexual prowess.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We prefer self-indulgence to self-restraint. We prefer the shallowness of s- of beauty that fades to like true-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... truly gorgeous things.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, we w- we want the beautiful virgin. We don't want a 50-year-long marriage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like-
David: We, we are all, like culturally compromised, and it feels, it feels bad
Seth: We can-
David: We, we don't know how-
Seth: We can't unentangle-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... ourselves from the culture that we live in. We live in societies that are ruled by powers that are, um, capricious-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... at best.
David: At best, and malicious at worst.
Seth: Malicious at worst, and regardless, are controlled by an ancient evil.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, that-
David: There's still, there is still an enemy of God whispering into the ear of the leaders of the empire.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right. So what are the, what is the good news for the people of God in all that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, and I think it's, uh, really simply at this stage of the story, it's that God has not forgotten you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's actually written a book about you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you feel like your life is out of control, and there's only injustice around you all the time, and nothing seems to go right, God has written a book precisely for people surrounded by the empire.
David: Mm.
Seth: I keep thinking about Star Wars when I say the empire.
David: I know, yeah.
Seth: I was like-
David: I think you're supposed to. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, I was like, yeah.
David: It's, uh-
Seth: But like the, you-
David: It's a g- it's a good
Seth: ... you can es- if you feel like you can't escape the clutches of the empire, the expectations that the empire has for women-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the expectation the empire has for men and the way that they use power. I mean, think about the Me Too movement.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like all of this is like s- this is all here. He demands his wife-
David: Right
Seth: ... come out and parade his beauty and then wants to sexually abuse hundreds of women-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... to prove what about himself?
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't know, but like, we still live here.
David: Yeah, Harv- yeah, Harvey Weinstein is still here, you know? [laughs] Like...
Seth: And I think maybe at this point in the story is that God is with us in exile.
David: Mm.
Seth: He actually wrote a book describing a godless place, and to show us that that's actually not the case.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That this isn't just America going crazy. This isn't just-
David: Right
Seth: ... China going crazy.
David: No.
Seth: This isn't just-
David: Wherever you are
Seth: ... you and you, wherever you are, being nuts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The battle is actually far larger.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is what the Book of Revelation does. It takes people suffering in the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... churches, in the seven churches, and kind of expands them and blows them up to these kind of crazy, like cosmic proportions.
David: Yeah, now it's d-
Seth: There's dragons and-
David: Now it's dragons and oceans and-
Seth: ... whatever else
David: ... yeah.
Seth: But what that should do for people who are living in exile and feel like they're living in a godless place is like, "Okay, I'm not alone."
David: Mm.
Seth: "There are other people suffering like me, and this isn't just an isolated incident. This is part of a global attack on the people of God."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "And that cannot be overlooked by the God I claim to serve."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like that, like if it's bigger than this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that means there's other rebels.
David: Right.
Seth: If it's bigger than this, God knows what's happening.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: If it's bigger than this, um, we can still hope to overthrow the empire one day.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Like, I think, like maybe that's kind of going on-
David: Yeah, definitely
Seth: ... in the scenes.
David: I definitely think so. Uh, yeah.
Seth: 'Cause it's like if it's just one village on, on an outpost on Jakku-
David: Oh, right. [laughs]
Seth: ... like some, some s- s- some Star Wars-
David: Some Star Wars refs
Seth: ... like if you s- if you're just being like, like, so that guy w- Ray. Who... Ray sells all those, like spare spaceship parts-
David: Oh, yeah, that guy
Seth: ... that big guy.
David: Yeah, he's like-
Seth: Like-
David: "One quarter portion." Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Like if that's, if that's what you think it is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... man, it can feel really hopeless.
David: You can feel alone.
Seth: But if-
David: But if you knew that this is, this has been the cosmic battle happening since the beginning of the fall, and that it has continued to manifest itself in every single kingdom on every corner of the globe-
Seth: And there seems to somehow, in some ways, be people of God in the highest places of power.
David: Yes, right. Yep.
Seth: Man.
David: Yep.
Seth: What's gonna happen?
David: Yeah. And that God, like that God has his people there in those kingdoms and places them there, um, and does so in order to-
Seth: Not to overthrow Xerxes.
David: Right.
Seth: But to overthrow the evil one.
David: To overthrow evil itself.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And I think, like, that is the good news of Jesus' coming-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that we, that, like, what I, what I love about the gospel is that in a world where our everyday experiences tell us that the word God is not in our story-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, God-
Seth: Hear hear
David: ... is absent from our story, um, we get to look to the gospel story and see that not only is God in control, God is in the flesh.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God has come into evil empires and has identified with us in our exile, has come to us in our exile. And in the gospels, you see him starting in Galilee, and then making his way into Jerusalem, and he comes into Jerusalem, he- and he's bringing his disciples with him. He's bringing followers with him. He's bringing a train of people with him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, and then at his death, that, that, that curtain into the king's palace that's full-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of fine twine linens and-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... onyx stones is opened, and now we're, it comes out to us.
Seth: And all the, also 10 of those same stones mentioned-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in King Ahasuerus' palace-
David: That's right
Seth: ... is mentioned in Revelation-
David: That's right
Seth: ... when Jesus returns.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so God has come to us exiles and has brought us into his palace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, and, and I just think it's amazing that, like, like, the, the God who seems absent in Esther, in the Esther story we see that that God ha- has made himself just immensely present, and that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he will bring us out of the empire of this world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, God will topple every kingdom. He will ultimately defeat the evil one, and we will never be in exile again when he comes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, we will live with the king at a proper feast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not in a drunken stupor feast where-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all bad decisions are made, but in-
Seth: The wedding supper of the lamb
David: ... the wedding supper of the lamb, where, where, where we feast in a holy way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that, like, maybe in Babylon, we don't have a, we just don't have a context for.
Seth: I mean, the Book of Esther does end with a feast.
David: It does.
Seth: A celebration of the destruction of God's enemies and-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the deliverance of God's people.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's the way the book ends, and it is a parallel to-
David: To the opening
Seth: ... the feast that Xerxes throws at the very beginning.
David: That's right.
Seth: Because the hope of God's people isn't, um, self-indulgent, uh, orgiastic-
David: Nope
Seth: ... shallow beauty, but the wedding supper of the lamb.
David: Yep.
Seth: Fulfilling, satisfying.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, an actual, an act- like, in self, like, indulgence the right way.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like [laughs]
David: Because it's, because of what it's celebrating.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not celebrating self-indulgence for self-indulgence's sake. What that final feast was celebrating was the salvation of all people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or, or, or the salvation of God's people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, and, like, that for us is what we will celebrate forever at the marriage supper of the lamb.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We celebrate the lamb who was slain for us. Like, and I think, I do wanna lean into this fact, that, like, like, Jesus is the Jew sold for 10,000 talents-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of silver.
Seth: He is.
David: Like, that is why we can celebrate. That's why we can have hope in exile, is because Jesus allowed him... Like, the Jews were saved in this story.
Seth: Right.
David: But Jesus is the Jew who was not saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he died and, and was, allowed him- allowed himself to be sold so that he could purchase us out from exile-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to purchase us from the, the, the, the, the penalty of sin and death-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and bring us into life, into an eternal feast with him.
Seth: I have so much to say about that when we hit irony.
David: I know.
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: We'll get there.
Seth: I'm so excited.
David: So many cool things to talk about. But for now-
Seth: Feast
David: ... feast.
Seth: There are only 25 instances of the word feast, uh, the, or the word banquet-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... used here in Esther, and I think, like, uh, over half of them, in the Old Testament, half of them are all in the book of, the Book of Esther.
David: Oh, there's, like, 25 in the Old Testament, and half-
Seth: And half of them are used here
David: ... of them are in Esther. Wow. This is a book about feasting.
Seth: It's a book about feasting.
David: Wow.
Seth: There's a, a self-indul- there's an empire, the, the, there's the empire's feast-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and the people of God's feast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're invited to feast at the table of the one true God.
David: Mm, mm.
Seth: To come to the wedding supper of the lamb, to celebrate him and not our pride.
David: Mm.
Seth: To not our control that just slips away. The more we celebrate our own power, our own privilege, we'll find that it's ironically taken away from us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by the same empire we think we're celebrating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When we trust the wedding supper of the lamb, not even death can take it away.
David: So good. How do we live in the empire today, e- especially in an affluent empire-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that celebrates feasting and self-indulgence? We feast and we celebrate and we rejoice in our salvation.
Seth: Yes.
David: That, and our salvation was not because I pulled myself by, by my own bootstraps, or because I inherited a lot of money, or because I have the corner office.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We celebrate in the fact that I was dead, and now I'm alive. And, like, and now we look around the empire today, and we don't see people that we need to be jealous of in the empire that have-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... more than we do. We see slaves.
Seth: Yeah.
David: These people are in a harem.
Seth: Yeah.
David: These people are, are, are being blood-sucked by the king and being oppressed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we've been set free.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, ama- how do we, how do we-
Seth: Every week we go to the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... church, and we take-
David: A feast
Seth: ... a feast.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus' body and Jesus' blood-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for our salvation.
David: Yeah. That's how we survive in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... exile. We feast on the one who will bring us out from exile. That's fun.
Seth: It's really good.
David: Well, that's the introduction to the Book of Esther.
Seth: We said a lot.
David: We said a lot.
Seth: There's a lot going on in Esther.
David: There's a lot going on. I cannot wait to continue through this book. So, uh, thank you guys for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
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