Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus. And this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a Biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
Seth: Welcome.
David: Seth, how are you feeling for round 2 of Esther?
Seth: Oh, so good. Yeah, so good. Okay, well, salad. Yeah, you light?
David: I did not. I had like a chicken sandwich, but like it was grilled chicken.
Seth: But, you know, still feel light, caffeinated, ready to go.
David: That's good.
Seth: Talk about divine irony.
David: Yes. So this is episode 2. For us in the Book of Esther. It's also our second episode of the YouTube broadcast of the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: I will not look at the camera this time.
David: And you're not going to look at the camera. You know, you should do like one little Jim look, you know, where you're just like, "He said that? Really?" And you look at the camera. But anyway, if you're joining us on podcast only— I winked.
Seth: Was that wrong?
David: That's good.
Seth: You can wink. I got it.
David: The only thing you're missing is Seth's awkward faces.
Seth: Oh, but they're so good.
David: But anyway, all right. So last time we talked about mainly the theme of exile and kingship.
Seth: Yes.
David: We talked about how Israel's in exile from the Promised Land. They're wondering where God is and if God is still active and can care for them, which is why his name is not mentioned in the whole book.
Seth: That's right.
David: And we also talked about how King Xerxes is really a puppet king who has no— like, he has all the power in the world and no power. It's exactly right. And we're supposed to see in him a paradigm for all the evil empires of the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we saw how in a real sense, we are still in both exile and under other evil empires today.
Seth: Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I was even thinking as we were starting, like, Xerxes has proven to be out of power. Like, he's, he's this really powerful king. His laws are unchangeable. He rules the whole earth, but he's constantly at the whim of his advisors. We talk about how their advisors kind of act like the satanic or the demonic delegates of the empire behind the empire. Haman. Haman in particular. And it kind of reveals that, like, Xerxes is in control, Yeah, someone else's. Someone else's. Yeah. Like a demonically energized empire is. And what's fascinating is that we too, like, um, that's— we like to assume we are in control of our own lives, but to the extent that we buy into our culture's narratives about power, beauty, sex, um, privilege, acclaim, fame, celebrity, which we'll talk about. So Haman means celebrity. I mean, celebrated one. I will talk about that. Like, to whatever extent we buy into those narratives is actually the extent to which we are controlled by the empire. So it's not just that they're like— we are not as autonomous as we think we are.
David: That's good. That's a good way to put it.
Seth: There's a— there's an evil empire actually controlling us, and the more we buy into it, the more controlled we are.
David: And which is another way to think about like how we were slaves to sin. I think this is just a very helpful visual Yes. Being a slave to sin is being like a part of and entwined with the empire.
Seth: Yes. Yeah. You think you're the king, you think you're King Xerxes, and you actually have the shallow veneer. You've got the opulence, you've got the self-indulgence, you've got the sex, you've got the beauty. But behind it all, you're kind of just a drunken pushover.
David: Yeah. And you're also just— all you're doing is the whim of an evil consigliere whispering in your ear.
Seth: And what's fascinating is the people that are saved The people who are actually put in control are people who trust that they're— that know they are out of control, that know that they do not have power.
David: That's an interesting— and we're going to talk about irony. Maybe we can use this to talk about it. But that is a really interesting irony that those who feel out of control— Mordecai, Esther— yes, are actually the ones in control who will be placed in power. Yeah.
Seth: I mean, it's like God humbles the proud.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Gives grace to the humble.
David: So cool.
Seth: So it's like we see that really vividly, like played out in the story of Esther and the empire.
David: Right. So we're going to talk a lot about irony today. Yes, let's get up to where we are in the point of the story. So the king throws an opulent feast. He's drunk for 187 days, brings Queen Vashti out, and is like, hey, look at her beauty, but she refuses to come. So he— does he—
Seth: does he— he banishes her.
David: He doesn't kill her. He just banishes her. Sends out an edict saying that all women must submit to their husbands, and in doing so kind of airs all his dirty laundry and his entire kingdom to the entire kingdom.
Seth: His advisers suggest a sexual beauty contest.
David: Yep, to to pick a new queen, where he will be the worst version of ABC's Bachelor. Yes, the worst version. And he will have sex with as many women as he wants until he finds the one that pleases him. And Esther gets sexually trafficked, kidnapped, and brought into the king's prison harem to beautify herself for a year before being presented to him to have forced sex with him.
Seth: Yeah, and she wins the king's favor.
David: Yes.
Seth: Mordecai endorses this.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Haman during this time rises to power.
David: Yes. And so, and we talked last episode about how Mordecai and Haman are the central, really the central characters in this story. And, and Mordecai is a descendant of Saul, and Haman is a descendant of the King Agag and the Amalekites.
Seth: They're two individuals who are emblematic of this, like, divine war that's been happening for centuries and centuries and centuries between the seed of the serpent, evil, and the seed of the woman's good.
David: Yes. And these things are coming to a head now in this story. And the question is, who's in control? How are God's people going to be saved? Has God forgotten his people? Are we all subject to the whims of drunk kings? What's going on?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: We come to this place and this is where really the— this is where we see the central story that people are used to thinking about when they think about the Book of Esther.
Seth: If I perish, I perish.
David: If I perish, I perish. Which is interesting. Super interesting because actually—
Seth: well, let's tell a story.
David: Okay, let's tell a story because I just want to get to that. That blew my mind.
Seth: So Haman writes the edict. All the Jews will be killed. So we didn't even say that part. Mordecai. Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman, who is in power.
David: Yes.
Seth: Haman, as emblematic of this ancient battle, doesn't just want to destroy—
David: Mordecai has been seeking to crush the head of the— of God's righteous seed, wants to wipe out all Jews everywhere. Yes.
Seth: He gets the king drunk at a feast, at a banquet, and they sign this rule into law.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Mordecai now brings this to the attention of Esther. Mm-hmm. And Esther— and he expects her to do something about it because she's the queen. Now, really, really, like, tellingly, she hasn't seen her husband in 30 days.
David: Yep.
Seth: She's not in a position of power. She shouldn't expect— she, as the queen, doesn't really expect to have a position of power. So she is worried that if she goes into the king's presence without permission, she'll be killed.
David: That's right.
Seth: And she is supposed to like tell her— tell the king that his wife is about to be destroyed by Haman's plot. But she's not really convinced that he will actually care enough, right, or want that, right?
David: And ironically, she's supposed to go in and tell him that, that she's about to be killed by Haman's plot. But if she goes in and tells the king that she's gonna be killed, she might be killed just by going to see the king. Yes, which is like a very ironic—
Seth: why don't we define irony? Yes, we need to do that.
David: Yeah, because let's start with this irony. If you got your definition of irony from the song Isn't It Ironic— I don't know you, everyone except you knows this song.
Seth: Really? I've never heard this.
David: And it's like, it's like rain on your wedding day. Okay, it's a free ride when you've already paid. Okay, it's good advice that you just didn't take. These are, these are like— is— and then it's like, isn't it ironic? And it's like, it's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife. None of these are irony.
Seth: These are actual lyrics.
David: These are the lyrics from the song.
Seth: Okay.
David: None of those are ironic though. Those are all inconveniences.
Seth: Yeah.
David: None of them are ironic.
Seth: Right, right, right. Yeah. Because I think the way that I've understood irony, or I think a helpful way to understand it is doing, searching, trying, grasping for one thing, but receiving its opposite.
David: By the way that you tried to get that thing. Yeah.
Seth: Like doing one thing and in doing that one thing, it implies the opposite.
David: You actually get the opposite, right?
Seth: So I think the best analogy is like, is, uh, the Roadrunner. Yeah.
David: You ever watch the Roadrunner?
Seth: Uh, it's the entire show is based on an ironic premise. The coyote, no matter how hard he tries, cannot catch the Roadrunner because the elaborate trap he sets for the Roadrunner is what he ends up getting ensnared in himself.
David: Yes.
Seth: Without fail.
David: Yep.
Seth: Every single time.
David: Yeah. He raises the anvil on a rope that's anchored to a tree. And he ties it off. And as soon as the Roadrunner comes and eats the birdseed, it's supposed to fall down and crush the— but it doesn't. The Roadrunner comes and eats the food. The anvil dangles overhead and doesn't stop. And the Roadrunner runs off and he's like, the trap must not work. So he goes over to test it to be like, what's wrong with this thing? And the anvil falls on him.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: He's caught in his own trap.
Seth: How many seasons?
David: I don't know. Well, the Roadrunner, because I was thinking about that, like what a perennially gratifying concept irony is.
Seth: Irony is the way— is hilarious.
David: It is very funny.
Seth: It's hilarious. And I was actually teaching this book to our students and like, I was just narrating the story. And when I finally got to the point, we'll talk about in a second in chapter 6 where Haman and Mordecai's roles are reversed. Yes. Everyone starts laughing. I was like, that's the response you should have.
David: It is kind of hilarious. Tragic comedy. Yes.
Seth: Yeah. So let me, let's just get, let's get to that point. So that's what irony is. Oh, Roadrunner cartoon show.
David: And you were telling me one of the definitions of irony I thought was helpful because it's less kiddy. Yeah, which was the one about beauty, but I can't remember it about like if you, if you, if beauty is your greatest thing.
Seth: Yeah. So there's an author, his name is David Foster Wallace. Yeah. So he's like, he won a ton of awards. He committed suicide not too long ago. Fascinating author. I wrote a paper on his book Infinite Jest, Jest, without actually ever reading it. But anyway, he has this really profound quote. He was an atheist and he said this: In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there's actually no such thing as atheism. There's no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what we worship. And he says this, uh, anything that you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they're where you tap real meaning in life, then you'll never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure, and you will feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths. Before they finally grieve you. Uh, really profound insight. And what he's— what he's pointing out is like there's this ironic way that when we worship or trust something as ultimate, it has this way of like curving back around and doing exactly the opposite of what we hope for.
David: Yes.
Seth: We worship beauty, we always feel ugly. We worship money, we always feel poor. We always feel poor and we could always have more.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so the book of Esther actually does a really good job of giving us a really vivid example of Haman— yes— trying to pursue one thing and getting the opposite. And this is where his name comes in.
David: Yep.
Seth: So his name, it means celebrity. Yeah. Celebrated one.
David: Yeah. The celebrated one.
Seth: And what's in the first instance we meet Haman, what does he want to be by Mordecai?
David: He wants to be honored.
Seth: He wants to bow down before me. Bow down before me. Celebrate me. First act.
David: Celebrate the celebrated one.
Seth: Celebrate me because I am in power. And Haman and Mordecai doesn't— refuses to do it. Yeah. And he continues to refuse to celebrate Haman. So he goes to the king. To enact this plan to hang Mordecai, to make sure that he's killed and he is celebrated universally by everyone. But when he goes to the king to make the— oh, should we— should I tell more details of the story?
David: Yeah, you just keep going.
Seth: Oh, you keep going?
David: I'm like into it. I love this story. I love hearing it.
Seth: So he, um, it is funny. So he wants Mordecai to celebrate him, right? He goes home and pouts to his wife.
David: Oh yeah, like his family. His family.
Seth: And he's like, he's like, Mordecai, this guy won't bow to me, or whatever else. It's like stupid, but it's like, but I'm great. Esther's invited me to feast. All this stuff's happening to me.
David: Which he doesn't know that the feast that Esther's inviting him to is a trap all along. Yes. Which is hilarious.
Seth: So he goes out from this feast with his wife, like boasting about his accomplishments and all, and his family boasting about his accomplishments and his greatness. And the fact that Esther's invited him to this great feast, which by the way, we didn't even get to the, if I perish, I perish.
David: Yeah, we'll get there. We'll circle back around.
Seth: We'll circle back around. And he meets Mordecai. On his way out of his party with his wife. And Mordecai again refuses to bow to him. So Haman runs to the king's bedchambers to request an audience with him. He gets there and the king just so happens to have been unable to sleep.
David: Yep. So he had a bedtime story brought in to be read to him to help him sleep.
Seth: And he reads the history of the acts of the king. So again, like, what a great picture of his pride. Yes.
David: Read to me about the great things I've done. All the great things I do.
Seth: And he realizes he never—
David: honored Mordecai for doing something.
Seth: He never celebrated Mordecai.
David: Celebrated Mordecai for the— because earlier in the story we read about the fact that Mordecai had heard about a conspiracy from two of the king's eunuchs to overthrow the king. Yes, he heard about it, reported it to Esther, and the rebellion was quelled.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, but he never celebrated that, which for a Syrian king was unheard of.
Seth: Right. It would have been a big misstep.
David: Big misstep, because you always wanted to celebrate people for doing great things to you, for you, to encourage other people to do great things for you. That was another way they consolidated power.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's also like— so everyone does that, every leader does that. Anyway, so he goes to the king mad that Mordecai won't kill him, Mordecai won't bow to him. He starts constructing this 150-foot-tall— I thought it was 50 cubits.
David: Yeah, 50 cubits. And a cubit is 18 inches. Oh, it was like 75 feet or something.
Seth: 75 feet tall gallows, which the word gallow is It just means tree.
David: It just means tree. It is the word for tree. It is eitz, the Hebrew word eitz, which is the same word tree.
Seth: So more than likely that meant he— it is a tall wooden stake that he would have been impaled upon and then hung 75 feet up in the air.
David: That is right.
Seth: So he builds this thing and then he goes to—
David: speaking of opulence. Yeah, 75-foot pole.
Seth: What was it?
David: Come on.
Seth: It was supposed to— it is a symbol of his inflated ego.
David: Yep, like, we can leave it at that.
Seth: Yeah, it's like, we can leave it there for people to pick up on what that means. So he, interesting, he's just like, so he goes fully expecting the king to ratify his decision to kill Mordecai. Yeah, and he walks into the room in a huff, angry, and the king interrupts him and he says, what would you do for the man in whom the king delights to honor? And he's like, well, who would the king delight to celebrate more than me?
David: Yeah, he's like, I'm the celebrated one. What?
Seth: It's like, who starts going into great detail about how, what he should do to celebrate the one. He should wear his robes and wear his rings and have a high official of the land parade him through the city on the king's horse. On the king's horse.
David: Which I heard a commentator, uh, akin that to taking a ride in Air Force One.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. So great example.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He should do all these things.
David: Hey president. What? Like, man, what should I do? Man, you should let me film our podcast in the Oval Office.
Seth: Yes.
David: And you should give me like a ride, a ride on Air Force One.
Seth: Oklahoma City to Washington, DC, and then your press secretary should tell everyone the world about how great the podcast is. This is exactly—
David: it's, it's so president if you know president.
Seth: So, so Xerxes is like, wonderful idea, Haman. Perfect idea. Celebrated one. Celebrate Haman.
David: Mordecai.
Seth: Mordecai. Celebrate Mordecai.
David: So not you, not you. The one you came in here to huff at me about, right? That you were, you wanted me to kill. I want you to go celebrate him.
Seth: Yes.
David: Irony.
Seth: Irony. So this is the central chapter of the entire book. Yeah, it's the main point we're supposed to take from the Book of Esther. There is this divine reversal of fortunes. Haman is falling. Mordecai is ascending. So much so that when Haman goes home and talks to his wife about what just happened, she prophesies essentially. Did you read this?
David: I don't know if I know what you're talking about here.
Seth: So she prophesies. This in verse 13. Then his wise men and his wife Zeresh said to him, if Mordecai, before whom you've begun to fall, is of the Jewish people, you will not overcome him, but you will surely fall before him.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So she prophesies that if this has already happened, you're going to die. And fascinatingly, she also— uses the word seed.
David: No, she doesn't.
Seth: So it's not in our English translation. But if Mordecai, before whom you began to fall, is of the Jewish seed, you will not overcome him.
David: But she's repeating Genesis 3:15.
Seth: She's repeating the, the hope of Genesis 3:15. Exactly. There will be someone coming who crushed the head of the serpent.
David: She knows.
Seth: She's identifying her husband as that ancient serpent, which is what the book wants us to do, which is what the book wants us to— he's part of that empire that Saul was supposed to kill but didn't. And she's saying, if he is of the seed, the serpent-crushing seed, yeah, you will most surely fall.
David: That's crazy. He hears this, which is ironic, super ironic, that the woman to whom he came for comfort ends up bringing him, yes, the truth of destitution.
Seth: So much irony. He goes immediately, the guards come to take him to Esther's second banquet, right, which we'll circle back around to, uh, and During that banquet, the king, drunk, says, "What do you want, my queen? Up to the half of my kingdom?" For like the third time. Yeah. And she says, "Well, somebody has sold my people into slavery. They're going to kill them." Who is this? Who is this man? In a rage, "This wicked Haman." And Haman, like minutes ago, his wife had just announced his death.
David: And now he's crushed.
Seth: And now he's crushed. And Xerxes leaves angry, comes back, and something weird happens where he like trips or whatever.
David: Yeah, the language is weird there.
Seth: But like Xerxes interprets it as an assault on his wife. Which is exactly what he was actually trying to do.
David: Yes, he goes— which is ironic because he did assault her sexually.
Seth: He—
David: Xerxes did.
Seth: Well, I was gonna say it's ironic because Haman is begging for mercy. Yeah, but in the act of begging for mercy, it actually brings out the opposite. It brings about his judgment.
David: Oh yeah.
Seth: So Xerxes sees this and then impales him on the same pole that he built for Mordecai. And that's the big ironic twist of the book of Esther.
David: Yes, that is crazy.
Seth: So it's like this sweeping story. I'm getting like lost in all the details, but yeah.
David: And yeah, it's super— that was well told.
Seth: Thank you.
David: That was well told.
Seth: Thank you.
David: So what are we supposed to see first here in this text? Like, oh, like, okay, what is this irony about? What is it pointing us to? Not just like this. Like, I fell in love with this book reading it recently. Like, this is great literature.
Seth: Oh, it's beautiful literature.
David: Very, very, very beautiful literature.
Seth: Beautiful literature.
David: So, but, and that's kind of what you just showed us in your, in your narrative. But like, what, like, what does this tell us about Yahweh, the unmentioned God in Esther, you know?
Seth: So I think what it should tell us is that the way that God normally deals with our pride and evil is the way that he deals with Haman.
David: Hmm.
Seth: God will give us— let us pursue precisely what we want and let that curve back around and destroy us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He'll let us act just like Wile E. Coyote as much as we want. Set up all the traps, try to pursue your celebrity, pursue sexual allure, pursue money and things.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And your punishment is not going to be me smiting you from heaven. I'm not going to send a hurricane because you guys legalized same-sex marriage or whatever.
David: Right, right.
Seth: What I'm going to do is I'm going to let you experience the ironic consequences of your actions. I'm going to let your decisions eat you alive.
David: Right. And so would you say that this is kind of the same language that like the psalmist uses? When he says, let them fall into the snare they have set over and over again.
Seth: So like Psalm 5:10, hold them guilty, O God, by their own devices. Let them fall. Psalm 7:15, the wicked man has dug a pit and hollowed it out, and he's fallen into the hole which he has dug. His mischief will return on his own head. That's the— that's Roadrunner TV show. Yeah, it's exactly the Roadrunner TV show. This one is fascinating to me. Psalm 37, David is writing a poem about the time that he was being pursued by King Saul. And he was on the run from King Saul, and he calls King Saul wicked. He says, the wicked have drawn their sword to slay those who are upright in conduct, referring to himself. Their sword will enter their own hearts. Wow. And then in 1 Samuel 3, do you know how Samuel dies— King Saul dies? He dies— he commits suicide on the same sword he chased David down with. Wow. His sword is pierced through his— like, he falls on his own sword. So like David's prayer for ironic justice comes true in Saul's life. Mm-hmm. Proverbs says it kind of the same way, like, there's a way that seems right to man, but its way ends in death. Wow.
David: And then you could take this all the way back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, couldn't you?
Seth: That—
David: yes, it's the tree. Yeah, they said— and God said, if you eat this tree, you'll surely die. And they thought it would give them life, but all it brought them was death.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Like knowing good and evil for myself, providing for myself will be the best way for me to flourish and live in this world.
Seth: Yes.
David: And actually God says, no, that's actually what will cause you to die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right.
Seth: So the beginning of the Bible is ironic, is there is this ironic choice that's happening. Like there's like, we, what we do think is going to bring us life, but by pursuing what we think is going to bring us life, it actually brings us death. So I think the case for like what, what Ester uniquely teaches us is that this ironic reversal of our fortunes, like the, the disorderedness of our desires, always curves back around on us and will always come back to haunt us. Like, it will always happen. And this is actually God's mode of judgment in the world, his like primary mode by which he exercises justice.
David: Yeah, I, I long— I, I have a longing for sexual satisfaction, and so I go to pursue it in an adulterous affair or pornographic website. And all that does is dehumanize other people. It makes me unsatisfied. And like, or like, you've heard about like how— like, this is right, this is going deep into some like waters here, but it's like, you know, you hear these guys who've spent so much time consuming pornography that nothing excites them anymore.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that's, that would be an ironic—
Seth: well, think about the king.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He has hundreds of women at his disposal. And the only thing that he can think that will excite him is a beauty contest where hundreds of brand new virgins are brought to him and he daily gets to sleep with another woman for several years. Totally. It's like, yeah.
David: And yet he's still like getting sloshed drunk every night. Cause he's completely—
Seth: and then he doesn't even commit himself to his wife and doesn't see her for 30 days. Like it's not enough.
David: No.
Seth: So I think David Foster Wallace is totally right. Like, The ironic justice of God is the thing that we worship, the thing that we trust, the thing that we like ironically look for life in is going to eat us alive. Yeah, I think that's what the Book of Esther is like teaching us in the story of Haman. Yeah. And so Haman searched for a celebrity.
David: Yeah, he was searching for celebrity. Yep. And it ended up bringing about the most dishonor that he could possibly face while also his life bringing the most honor to his greatest enemy.
Seth: Yeah. And I think it's so like, it's funny, beautifully written, beautifully narrated, but the justice is so poetic. Mm-hmm. I think you're forced to conclude this must be God.
David: Yes, it's like, it's too perfect.
Seth: God is never mentioned, right? But the justice is too poetic for it not to be true.
David: I think, I think all of the irony, the justice, the coincidences, all of those point to one conclusion. No one planned this but God, right? This wasn't, um, this— yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: So think about— then think about, like, think about, like, if you're not a believer listening to this, think about all the things like David Foster Wallace, like, tells you. Like, what do you worship? Isn't it fascinating that the exact thing you wish you most had is the thing that you feel like you never have? Isn't there, like, a poetic justice to our longings where we desire sexual or beauty, power, money. But the more we strive after those things, the more empty we feel, the less satisfied we feel, and the more like it's eating us alive.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Isn't there like a poeticness to the way a world looks without God that kind of clues you into the fact that maybe there actually is one? Right. I think that's also part of what's happening here. Like, that's interesting, writing to Persians. Yes, writing to people who assume there is no God.
David: This is an apologetic.
Seth: This is an apologetic. Look at how Everything in life is actually its own ironic consequence. Poetic justice is everywhere. It's not just for what we find funny in like rail— like the Roadrunner cartoon, right? But it's what's true of like drug addicts too. Drug addicts search for control in taking cocaine, that feeling of willfulness, power, acceptance— or not accepted, but willfulness, power, ability. But people who are addicted to cocaine are the least likely— they're the most out-of-control people, you know?
David: Right. Like, the substance that they think gives them control is actually the thing spiraling their lives out of control.
Seth: Right. Why is everything designed so ironically?
David: Yeah.
Seth: You don't have irony without an author.
David: Yeah, that's so true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So it's an apologetic.
Seth: Yep.
David: And it's like, we're supposed to see that this is the way that God does work in the universe and has worked throughout the entirety of the Bible.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is ultimately the fate that we are all consigned to. Yeah, that— bad news everybody, no matter what you choose to pursue in this life will ultimately end in bringing a curse, punishment, and death to you. Yeah, what you ultimately seek to bring you satisfaction will only bring you dissatisfaction and decimation. Yes, it's like, well, that sucks. Yeah, so like, how does Jesus make this good news?
Seth: By irony. Oh, okay, so think about the— just the similarities between Jesus the story of Jesus, the story of Mordecai and Esther that we just narrated. So Jesus, like Mordecai, is persecuted by people in power who hate him because he rejects their authority and their importance.
David: Yes.
Seth: The Pharisees are mad that Jesus doesn't recognize their authority, importance, and they jealously seek to try to kill him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The Pharisees, just like Haman, plot to kill Jesus with silver.
David: Yeah, they buy him with silver.
Seth: Yeah. Jesus, like Mordecai, is paraded through a city riding on a donkey while the people shout praises and and the Pharisees like fume jealously. Haman, um, like the religious authorities, collaborate, uh, with the political powers to erect this giant tree.
David: Yes.
Seth: In which to kill Jesus/Mordecai on. Judas, like Haman, seals the deal with several pieces of silver. We already said this. And here's the ironic part of all this. Unlike Mordecai and like Haman, Jesus is hung on the tree. So we expect the reversals to be true. Mordecai, Jesus, the new Jew, to reign, to rule, right? To—
David: something's going to empower— something's going to happen. He's carrying the cross. He's getting— the closer he gets to Golgotha, right? The closer he gets, the more the Jewish author who is attuned to the story of Esther is expecting a Roman soldier to go up there or Pilate to go up there or Caesar to go up there. He's going to do something. What's he going to do? Everyone's waiting. What's he going to do? And then he gets up there like Haman, like Haman, and he's hanged. And he has people saying to him, save yourself. Oh, you who could save others. Ironically, you can't save yourself.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Jesus experiences the ironic consequences that people like Haman and people like us should experience. So we are— there's all sorts of things that we should experience the ironic result of because our desires are disordered. Jesus is somebody who didn't experience those, experienced the ironic consequences that we should. So, yeah, and so, and Jesus then, unlike Haman— so he's like him in the fact that he dies, but unlike Haman, he's not dying for his own evil, his own pride. He's dying for ours, right? On the cross, he absorbs the ironic punishment humanity has deserved. But then ironically, when that should have been the low moment, Jesus, like Mordecai, Mordcai rises to power from the grave. He does.
David: From the place where you're not supposed to rise.
Seth: Right, right.
David: Yeah. You don't go to power through death.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's the ironic thing that you're saying. Right.
Seth: Okay. That's exactly right. And he rises to power out of death. Defeat. Just like Mordecai defeats all the Jews. Yeah. Jesus defeats the enemies of darkness and sin. The empire of sin is ended and Jesus sits at God's right hand in the heavenly places through an ironic Salvation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is— it's ironic.
David: Yeah, that's amazing. So let me try to like repeat some of that back to you. So like what you're saying is God has built the world to work one way, that when we seek to find satisfaction or worship anything in this world, it turns ironically back on us to give us the exact opposite.
Seth: Yes. Okay.
David: And in doing that, we have deserved that punishment. But you're saying that on the cross, what we see through the Esther story is that, that Jesus has stepped in between our sinful pursuit of wrong desires and has received the punishment that was coming right back around on our own head.
Seth: Right. We should— when we are reading the Esther story, we should see ourselves as Haman. We're pursuing celebrity.
David: Yes.
Seth: We want our family to be healthy at all costs. But as we're doing that, we start getting the opposite result. Like, have you ever noticed that people like who obsess over their kids, their kids end up like hating their parents? And then they parent their kids in a way that their parents never would because they want their kids to like them in a way they never liked their parents, but their kids don't like them.
David: It's all ironic.
Seth: It's like, it's all ironic.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so yes, exactly right. You're supposed to see yourself as Haman. You should expect to be impaled on the pole of the frustrated, um, your frustrated desires to be beautiful, to have a good family. But instead of that, Jesus does.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He inserts himself into the story.
David: Right. Which is what Esther does, which we'll come back to here in a second. And then there's just this like— and then there is this legal irony that's happening too, which, which just we have to point out because it's just so ironic. It is like, is that the, the judge who had the right to actually give us justice for our wrongdoing, to punish us and, and destroy us, he had the right to do that. Ends up taking that justice himself like that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Like there's like another level of irony too.
David: It's like this might sound sacrilegious to say it like this, so I don't know how it's going to sound, but it's like I— in the same way that when we sin, the justice, the punishment comes around on our own head. God allowed himself when he executes justice for it to come around on his own head.
Seth: Yes. Like, that's exactly right.
David: Beautiful, willful gift from God to do that for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and he is the God who is in control of this whole situation. This doesn't happen accidentally to Yahweh. This is his plan. We look at Esther and it seems so well-planned that God must have been its author.
Seth: Yes.
David: The same thing is true of the cross. That is the most beautiful story ever told and is told so well. And the justice is so poetic and the coincidences are too far-flung.
Seth: Yes.
David: That God must have ordained every step of it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is like what we're told again and again in the New Testament.
Seth: Yes.
David: That Jesus is the one that God foreordained to be our— like, to like die for us.
Seth: If you want to experience an ironic salvation from your ironic consequences, we have an ironic gospel for that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for Jesus's sake will find it.
David: Wow. Yeah, that's very ironic.
Seth: Yes. I—
David: there's one thing I want to say and tease out about this irony thing before we, we turn to Esther.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that is this whole idea of how does Jesus then, and Yahweh, how does God and his empire and kingdom replace our ironic desires? Like, doesn't he fix that problem for us too? He doesn't just come in and take the punishment our ironic desires deserve. He also gives us new desires that are actually fulfilled. Yeah, it's like when we pursue Jesus and we want to worship and love him, what falls back on our own, on our own heads is grace and life and peace and satisfaction and contentment. It's like, that's not—
Seth: I don't know if that's indigenous to Esther. Like those, I think those are right concepts, right ironic reversals, but I don't know if those are— I don't know if I get a ton of internal motivational thought, thinkings, or desires from the book of Esther. Interesting.
David: I totally do. But I totally do, from this whole theme of exile and longing that seems to take place in this whole book. That even when the book ends, the people are still in exile, they're still waiting. We have these culturally compromised characters who we don't know if they were good or bad, what were their intentions, motivations.
Seth: To your point, the point you're making, the book ends with King Xerxes imposing a new tax on the whole land, right? The emperor is still in charge of the empire, like not a ton has changed.
David: So I just feel like And like, we— why is it as a reader, we're like, right, did— was Mordecai good or bad?
Seth: Right?
David: Like, did he make good decisions or bad decisions? Was he being pompous and like being like, I'm just being like loyal to my forefathers to not bow to Haman?
Seth: And, you know, like, yeah, yeah. And it makes you ask the question like, well, when the Messiah comes, will this just happen again?
David: Yes.
Seth: Will it just be a reversal of power, but the powers will still be in? Right.
David: Or does he actually like fix this cultural tension and blending that we have to like, let me know how to parse out how to be in exile and how to be in Babylon, but in his kingdom.
Seth: So there's a finality to Jesus's cross. Yeah, that it is finished. At the end of Esther, the empire still stands. The empire still stands. And really its power isn't abated. Like there's no diminishment of its power.
David: There was a salvation for the for the people of God inside the kingdom, right? But the power of the kingdom still reigned. Still reigned.
Seth: And that you can look at the morally compromised nature of Esther and Mordecai as proof of that. Like, the power of the kingdom still reigns over people's hearts, presumably even the people of God. So what's unique at what happened with Jesus is he actually diminishes the power. Yes, of the empire.
David: That's right.
Seth: Mordecai did not do that. No. The king is still making taxes on the people of God.
David: The death of Haman was not enough. It was killing the enemy was not enough.
Seth: Yes.
David: Something else had to happen.
Seth: Yes.
David: And ironically, it was that the— like that the hero had to die.
Seth: Yes.
David: Still.
Seth: Yeah. Ironically, it was the hero that had to die. But in like, I'm trying to think of a good way to make sure that we talk about like what— how Jesus defeats the empire at the cross. Like because he doesn't— he doesn't defeat the Empire at the cross. He defeats the Empire's power. Mm-hmm. The Empire can no longer kill those who find their life in Jesus.
David: That's right, because he has ironically defeated death by bringing life out of it.
Seth: The Empire can no longer create more products of itself. So like we talked about, Esther's a product of the Empire. She's like externally gorgeous, she's sexually attractive, Able, right? She's throwing all these feasts and these parties. She's changed her name. Like, there's just internal complexity, this internal, like, bent towards the empire within Esther and Mordecai that is actually defeated for Christians. Yeah, Christians have this intuitive understanding that they belong to a different kingdom than the empire of the world, and they live in light of that. So at the cross, Jesus defeats the power of the empire over death and the present— the power of that internal empire that we talked about last, last time. Yes. Like those two things. He does that. He defeats them categorically for those that trust in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: For those who lose their life so they may find it in him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But that is not the case for the entire world.
David: Right.
Seth: The presence of the empire is still felt.
David: The king's taxes still go out.
Seth: The king's taxes still go out. But there is a growing rebellion.
David: Yes.
Seth: Within the empire that we are promised will one day overthrow the presence of the empire because the king, the emperor, has already been dethroned.
David: Yeah. And in the— and in the same way, it's like, you know, Jesus said, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. It's like— it's like him repeating this, this this strange ironic prophecy from Haman's wife.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That if these are the Jewish seed, there's no way you're going to be able to defeat them. Yes. And like, yeah, that's, that's where we are now. I just, I just think it, even if it's not indigenous to the text, I just think it's important to point out the fact that just because people, I think, listen, like, okay, then what escape do I have from what I, what I worship just coming down on my own head?
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, it's the fact that you won't die eternally.
Seth: Yeah. You will be a part of God's kingdom.
David: Well, and that like Jesus actually satisfies our desires. Yeah, like that when we desire him, he satiates us. Like, desiring Jesus is never ironic. Whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to give you life, you get life. Yeah, whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to bring you contentment, you get contentment. Whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to bring purpose to your life, you get purpose. Yes, Jesus never deals ironically with his children.
Seth: Even the desire for beauty.
David: Yes. I made you this spotless bride.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Like Jesus takes our ironic desires and makes them true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I wish I was more pretty.
Seth: Great.
David: I'll make you my pure, spotless bride forever. He untwists the irony in our lives. And so what we need to do is we need to find like, what are all the things that I have trusted in in this world and how have they become like snares for me that I've fallen in, you know, anvils I've stood underneath and how can I bring those to Jesus and let him untwist them for me?
Seth: Yeah. Do you find yourself in the same compulsive behaviors or in the same types of relationships, experience the same types of problems over and over and over again? There is redemption and reversal in Jesus Christ. There is. Yeah.
David: And so good. Well, this talk ended up lasting way longer than I thought it would. So we're going to— we're going to have like a 4 to 8 A and a 4 to 8 B. Mm.
Seth: B-side.
David: B-side. So this was the— we'll call this like the Heyman Amen and Mordecai episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then now let's, let's start a new episode and let's do an Esther episode. So we'll leave it here for now and give us a chance to breathe. And, and then we'll be back next week to talk about Esther.
David: All right. We'll see you guys then.
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