David: [mellow music] ... submit to death, because only through death is there life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That what you are, in the sin of it, the flesh of it, its current kingdom, has to die in order for it to be risen and returned again anew. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are beginning our look at the book of Jeremiah, which I am very excited about. Seth, how are you feeling about that?
Seth: I'm feeling pretty excited.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, Jeremiah is 5.2% of your entire Bible.
David: It's the longest book in the Bible.
Seth: It is the longest book in the Bible!
David: Yes.
Seth: Longer than Psalms.
David: Yeah, yeah, not by chapter or verse number-
Seth: But-
David: ... but number of words-
Seth: It-
David: -and length on a scroll-
Seth: It is
David: ... the longest book.
Seth: It is very long. Um-
David: It's a long book.
Seth: So-
David: Genesis is a close second.
Seth: We've been studying for this for, like, over a month. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, so we've been joking around the office that this is finals week, and, um-
David: It's finals week.
Seth: Yeah, so.
David: I'm gonna test you. [laughs]
Seth: You're gonna test me. [laughs]
David: "What is Jeremiah 5:12?" No. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Well, that's great. Okay, so what's the- what's a great place for us to start as we think about the Book of Jeremiah?
Seth: The... I mean, the first thing you need to know about the Book of Jeremiah is that it's- Jeremiah is a prophet-
David: Okay
Seth: ... delivering prophecies. So I'm sure we've had this discussion a couple different times before, but we should just talk about what is prophecy, like, as a genre, and, like, in its particulars, what is a, a biblical prophet?
David: Okay, and it sounds like there's two things there. Like, one is prophetic literature-
Seth: Yep
David: ... so a type of writing style-
Seth: Yep
David: ... a type of book you might read.
Seth: Yep.
David: And then there's also, like, prophecy, like, when it actually happened.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What was Jeremiah doing?
Seth: That's right.
David: So those are the two things.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Which one do you wanna start with?
Seth: Let's start with just what is prophetic literature-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because it's fairly-
David: So these, these words on the page.
Seth: Jeremiah, in particular, is a series of prophecies he delivered over the course of 40 years-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Israel to various different kings, to different people groups, to a whole bunch of different people throughout his ministry, and Jeremiah mentions his editor. His name is Baruch, and Baruch cobbles it all together and helps Jeremiah make a main point, or thematically organizes his material-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that we, as readers, can engage with Jeremiah's prophecies hundreds of years later and help understand what he was saying to the kings and broader points about his prophetic agenda.
David: Okay, so should we think about it like, a, like, oh, you've got this preacher who's been preaching for 40 years, and this is a collection of his sermons? Is it his greatest hits?
Seth: Yep.
David: House of... Like, or it's like, no, he picked and chose-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... very specific sermons, very specific prophecies to make a... You kind of talked about this point.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like-
Seth: Yes.
David: H- what, you talk about this editor, Baruch.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and he's... Uh, so it's hard to think, is it just, like, a loose connection, like, uh-
Seth: So Jerem- so this is actually a fascinating question because Jeremiah, uh, according to all the scholars, is one that kind of resists a, like, a comprehensive message.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's a lot of debate about, is there a main point of Jeremiah, or is Jeremiah just a collection of a really important prophet's writings?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because when you read it, it's not in chronological order. It doesn't follow from King Josiah to J- King Jehoiakim to King Zedekiah.
David: Interesting.
Seth: All the prophecies are stacked on top of each other. It's m- prophecy, like poetic prophecy, is mixed with prose, and it's mixed with letters, and it's mixed with letters to Jeremiah's editor, and-
David: So it's not even stylistically organized.
Seth: It's not stylistically organized, [chuckles] and-
David: Not chronological, not stylistically organized.
Seth: And so some people will point to the fact that Jeremiah was written in a time of, like, pretty great political turmoil, when Jeremiah was a refugee and a prisoner, and so the cobbled-together nature makes sense of Jeremiah's life.
David: Mm.
Seth: You know, one time he's exiled to Egypt, and he almost goes to Babylon, and he is in prison for a period of time. He's writing prophecies in prison, and so as he's... These are all disjointed because they were- he lived in a disjointed time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, other authors-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... will s- try to make a main point out of it.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, the most convincing is a, a guy, uh, by, by the name of Shedd. He wrote this book called A Mouthful of Fire-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which is a great title for a book. [laughs]
David: It really is.
Seth: A Mouthful, A Mouthful of Fire. Uh, and he talks about how, um, God's word is the main character-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the book of Jeremiah.
David: So this is one example of somebody trying to find a unifying theme.
Seth: Right, and so what he'll say is that Jeremiah has large... or Baruch, the editor, has largely grouped Jeremiah's words into four distinct categories, where God's word goes out to a particular person and affects a particular person.
David: Mm.
Seth: So the first section, about the first 24 chapters, God's word goes to Jeremiah, and Jeremiah's personally affected by the weight of his message.
David: Mm.
Seth: So an example of this would be, at one point in time, Jeremiah just starts weeping and wishing he was n- had never been born because the message of destruction he's bringing is so intense.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's this deep, intense, personal quality to these first 24 chapters. The next several chapters deal with God's words going to the religious and political leaders of Israel and how they disagree with it and fight Jeremiah on it and put Jeremiah in prison for it. The next section is God's word against the nation of Judah itself and destroying Judah, and Judah going into exile, and the final chapters are God's word going against the nations and destroying all the nations-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that have oppressed Israel, including Babylon. Uh, so and he's like-... the point of the Book of Jeremiah is to prove the power of God's word in the world.
David: I see.
Seth: Uh, so he, he makes sense of it that way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, which I think is pretty convincing, and God's word is a, a big theme in the Book of Jeremiah.
David: Yeah. So d- I mean, how- what- where do you come down on it? Uh, do you think there is some kind of unifying message that-
Seth: [gasps]
David: ... Baruch and Jeremiah were trying to achieve in the way they edited this quilt of prophecies together, or is it just a cobblestone path through a prophet's life?
Seth: I want to believe there is a unified message to the Book of Jeremiah, because, I mean, it took 40 years to collect all this material.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Baruch, having been intimately involved in Jeremiah's life-
David: Right
Seth: ... would wanna steward these prophecies well.
David: Sure.
Seth: And so I would assume there's a unified message. The best example I've read of a comprehensive, like, theme or point to Jeremiah is Shed's example-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of, like, a theology of the word of God and what it does when it impacts the world. And it w- it holds up to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... fairly well. Um, I don't have an idea better than that.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, so I kind of agree that one of the main points of the Book of Jeremiah is God's word impacting the world around it, and people agreeing, disagreeing, and what happens when you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... agree or disagree with God's word.
David: I see.
Seth: Um-
David: And what we're not saying there is that that's the theme of the book, because there's other themes.
Seth: Not necessarily.
David: There's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... pride, and covenant, and... Right? And, and, uh, the temple, and Babylon-
Seth: Right
David: ... and exile, and but you're saying that the, the... That what we're, we're, we're trying to say here is that possibly the structural idea-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was following the word of God as a character-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... throughout the Bible. Perhaps.
Seth: I mean, the phrase, "Declares the Lord"-
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, it's a really common phrase. "This is the oracle of the Lord"-
David: Mm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... or, "Thus declares the Lord."
David: Very a prophetic signature.
Seth: It... 60% of the times that phrase is used, it's used in Jeremiah. In the entire Bible-
David: Oh
Seth: ... 60% of the times that phrase is used is in Jeremiah.
David: Whoa!
Seth: Jeremiah uses the phrase, "the word of the Lord" or-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "the words of the Lord" more than any other biblical author. So I think Shed makes a strong case-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that this proph- this idea of God's word doing things in the world is a pretty profound main point of the book.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I... The more I got into the weeds of the argument, the more I was like, "I think this is very powerful, it has a lot of explanatory power, but it's not everything the book has to offer."
David: Sure. Okay.
Seth: And so that's where I, I-
David: I love it
Seth: ... Where am I at at the moment? I think it's a super great hypothesis. I'm all on board, the vibes are great.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I'll keep riding that train for as long as I can, but there's so much more we can talk about in Jeremiah as well.
David: Yes. Okay, so w- we've talked about the literature.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, at least its structure. So you've got a, you've got a prophet who has a 40-year ministry, um, and these are the, the words he delivered. They've been written down and organized by an editor, Baruch-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and perhaps structured around this character of the word of God moving to Jeremiah, to the leaders, to Judah, and to the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but before we go to what is a prophet-
Seth: Okay
David: ... um, like, why, like, like, prophetic literature-
Seth: Sure
David: ... like, then, like, zoom out, we kind of have done, like, structure and origin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But, um, what is the function of a prophetic book of the Bible?
Seth: Oh.
David: Is it to teach me, you know, guide me, shape me-
Seth: Yes
David: ... make me worship, give me songs, like-
Seth: So that's tied up into what the role- what a prophet is.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in Israel, the way God's people were governed were through kings at this period of time, and one of the main people that sat beside a king was a prophet. Prophets were part of the monarchal, um, administration-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of ancient Israel and ancient Judah. And what prophets did were they were, along with the priests, experts in the covenant.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Expert is the covenant law laid out in Deuteronomy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, and Leviticus, and elsewhere. And their job was to confront and encourage the king to continue along a covenant faithfulness.
David: To continue to lead his kingdom in line with the Torah and the law where-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that's in it. Okay.
Seth: That's right. So, like, that was their main function, to act as a covenantal interpreter and an applicator.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, "This is how our kingdom should apply the precepts and commands of the covenant for this new era, now that we are 400 years past-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when Moses gave it on Mount Sinai, or gave it to them on Mount Sinai."
David: Is it... I don't know enough about politics.
Seth: Okay.
David: You're the poli sci major.
Seth: I am the poli sci [chuckles] major.
David: So [chuckles] uh, is it... Is, is, is, like, a good analogy, like, like the Supreme Court or something?
Seth: Oh.
David: It, like, takes the Constitution and applies it to the governing of a nation, and is like, "That's in line, it's not in line"?
Seth: That's actually... I've never thought about it that way.
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: But it, it, it could, it, there- very well could function that way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or you, it's a-
David: I'm, like, trying to just create a category
Seth: ... a way of i- a way of imagining it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because, I mean, prophets would do more than what our Supreme Court does.
David: Well, I mean... [chuckles]
Seth: Um, [chuckles] uh, but because, for example, like, "Should we go to war or not?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is a question the prophets would frequently be-
David: Because they would go listen to God.
Seth: They would listen on God's behalf.
David: Weigh the morality of that war with Torah-
Seth: Right, and then-
David: ... and do all of that and report back to the king.
Seth: That's right, because they weren't just applying or interpreting the covenant. They were also acting as spokesmen for God, right?
David: Right.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that's why it's like-
David: Kind of a special office.
Seth: So it's like, it, they do function like a Supreme Court.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So let's, let's just land the plane on-
David: Okay
Seth: ... covenant interpreters.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, they do act as a Supreme Court-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in really, really specific ways. And so, like, let me give you an example of, like, what I mean by that.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: So, like, in Deuteronomy, at the very end of Deuteronomy, chapter 28, uh, it lays out the blessings and the curses for obeying or disobeying-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the covenant. So if Israel obeys, they'll be blessed in the city, and they'll be blessed in the country. The fruit of women's wombs will be blessed, and the crops of their land, and the young of their livestock will flourish. Baskets and kneading troughs will be blessed, and all this great stuff will happen. So one of the rule- things a, a prophet would do is say, "King-... if you continue on this path, you can expect this type of thing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to happen in the future. God promised it. You may have forgotten that from your Bible reading, but this is what God promised.
David: Covenant obedience leads to covenant blessing.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Or if a king begins to go down a idolatrous path or a path that starts to reject God's law, he would remind them of covenant curses-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... such as this, uh, verse 16 of chapter 28, "You'll be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and kneading trough will be cursed. The fruit of your womb will be cursed. The crops of your land will be cursed." And very specifically for our purposes in Jeremiah, in verse 64, he says this: "If you fail the covenant significantly enough, the Lord will scatter you among all the nation from one end of the earth to the other."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And there you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. And among the nations, you will find no rest for the sole of your foot. The Lord will give you an anxious mind and eyes weary with longing." [exhales] And so the covenant promised blessings for obeying the covenant-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and promised eventually it will lead to exile. So Jeremiah, as a prophet, is coming in at the very end of Israel as a monarchy and prophesying, interpreting, applying the covenant, saying, "That promise that God made to Moses all those years ago-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where you would be sent into exile, is finally coming true."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I'm not just reading the political tea leaves."
David: Yes.
Seth: "I'm reading the covenant carefully. I've seen what Israel's done over the course of its history, and this covenant curse, this covenant consequence, is finally coming to pass."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Israel will be destroyed."
David: God's word made a promise.
Seth: That's right.
David: And now God's word will accomplish that promise.
Seth: That's right. And as a prophet, it was his job to remind Israel, like, "This is what God said he would do."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Expect it. Um, and, and particularly, submit to it."
David: I see.
Seth: "Submit to God's exile."
David: Okay. So that's what the prophet was doing in the king's court.
Seth: Yep.
David: He was being an arbiter of the covenant-
Seth: Mm
David: ... reminding him of covenant curses-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... trying to get him to either repent, return-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or just warning him of doom in general.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Because it was written down in the law-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that he is the Supreme Court, [chuckles] you know?
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: Uh, but then why take those warnings that were written down, and, um, I know a bit about the Book of Jeremiah, that then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... came to pass.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why write them down if it all happened? Like, why, why, why have the literature and not just the prophet?
Seth: Let me make sure I understand your question. Are you saying, like, why do we need prophetic literature if a prophet was existing at that time?
David: Uh, if, if the point of the prophet was to speak to the king and warn him-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
David: ... and this king, these kings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... didn't listen, in Jeremiah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, some of them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... eventually, Babylon comes, destroys Israel. Spoiler alert. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Uh, and, uh, and so Jeremiah's prophetic ministry to the king and to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Judea is over.
Seth: That's right.
David: Um, so why do we need to be party to that conversation-
Seth: Okay
David: ... centuries later?
Seth: Yes, yes. Okay, well, one-
David: Why read the book?
Seth: Why read the book if-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it was all written to an audience that's not us?
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: Okay, well, one, Jeremiah does have prophecies d- addressed to the people.
David: Mm.
Seth: So at one point in time, he sends letters to the exiles who have been sent into Babylon, presumably Daniel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Daniel references the prophecies of Jeremiah-
David: Right
Seth: ... and prays to God, asking for them to come true.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause Jeremiah doesn't just prophesy destruction, he also prophesies, um, a return from exile, which, by the way-
David: So does Deuteronomy
Seth: ... is part of the covenant [chuckles]
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's part of the covenant.
David: Right.
Seth: The covenant says that, "After exile, I will return you to the land."
David: It's always been the, the word of God's promise.
Seth: So Jeremiah's prophesying that in the future, God's covenant that he promised hundreds of years ago will come true.
David: Mm.
Seth: So anyway, uh, and he's writing that to people as well. But-
David: Who are not the king-
Seth: Not the king
David: ... but the future-
Seth: That's right
David: ... uh, people in exile.
Seth: That's right. But you have to remember that the nation of Israel, headed up by its king, represented the people of God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This wasn't just a king of any old nation. This was the- God's chosen nation to bless the entire world. So the failures of the king were representative of the failures of all the people. The king wasn't the only one sinning.
David: Mm.
Seth: The king was the first sinner, leading the rest of the nation to follow his example. So when Jeremiah is confronting the king, he is, in fact, confronting all of God's people, and he's saying, "Not just the king that's unfaithful, all-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God's people have been unfaithful, and all of us need to repent of the ways that we've been idolatrous, failed to obey God's commands, and have rejected God's love for us."
David: Right.
Seth: "And so we need, as a nation, to repent, not just the king, but all of us."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, does that answer your question?
David: Yeah, it does. It's like, why do... Why, why read this book? Why was it written down? Why was it distributed?
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, it's like, oh, because in a sense, we're all covenant breakers in need of a warning of destruction and the promise of restoration-
Seth: Right. That's right, and-
David: ... even today.
Seth: That's right, that's right. And if you are a Christian, part of God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there is a sense in which, like, we as Christians need to repent-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of things collectively, that are the fault of our leaders. You know, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... this happens all the time. Churches can be complicit in c- certain evils or wrongs-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or idolatries, and the whole church needs to repent, not just the pastor.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: That's right.
Seth: Same thing was true of ancient Israel and its king.
David: Mm-hmm. Okay. [gentle music]
Seth: What is prophecy?
David: Mm.
Seth: It is an interpretation, application of covenant, but it is also, as we already hinted at, speaking on God's behalf.
David: Right.
Seth: So this isn't just, um, acting as a Supreme Court-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... determining whether things are constitutional and reminding Israel of what God said in the past would, that would happen.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's also speaking on God's behalf, saying new things-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to God's people that perhaps have not been said before.
David: Right.
Seth: And interestingly, like a lot of prophets, the way that that message would come across is not just in words, not just in prophecies, but also in, like, the, their lives. Their lives would become like living symbols-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of what God would do to Israel. So for an example-... Jeremiah 2:13 says, "My people have committed two evils. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that hold no water." So this is Je- God's rebuke of Israel. They are like broken... A cistern is like how you would hold a water catchment system-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it would hold water. Like, a broken water cistern, like, it's leaking water everywhere and provides no life for anyone. You're failing the blessing. You're not blessing the world like your-
David: I see
Seth: ... covenant is due.
David: You were supposed to be a reservoir for my blessing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and instead, it's just seeped out of you, and you're dry, and no one can benefit from you.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, and Jeremiah embodies this broken cistern-ness of God's people by, at one point, being thrown into a cistern himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: His feet get sucked down into the mud, and he's imprisoned in this living metaphor for what God's people have become.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: These cracked cisterns that hold no water, that can bless no one, sinful, dry, empty, arid, and Jeremiah, a- as a spokesman for God, is speaking this against God's people and then living it as a matter of his-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, a fact of his life.
David: The word of God does not just work itself out in what he says but what he does.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, so in very m- a very real way, Jeremiah embodies the life of an exile before it even happens.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: You know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's, like, he's in a pit-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the mud.
David: Forsaken.
Seth: Forsaken, just as Israel will soon be when they go into-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... into Babylon.
David: Yeah, a living picture of God's promise.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah, helpful.
Seth: Uh, yeah, another way that that happens in Jeremiah, in Jeremiah 16, God tells Jeremiah to, um, um, to not get married, to have no children, to attend no funerals, and attend no weddings.
David: Man-
Seth: So he-
David: ... what a fuddy-duddy.
Seth: [chuckles] I know.
David: [laughs]
Seth: His life was supposed to be a picture of a living... of death.
David: Mm.
Seth: There's no marriage in death. Uh, funerals are a part of the social fabric. There's no social life. There's no mourning because there's nothing to mourn anymore. Israel's gone into exile.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, no families left.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's, God's done with Israel, and so he is supposed to embody that exile in his own social life. Um-
David: That's a heavy... That's a really heavy, depressing calling-
Seth: It is-
David: ... to put on someone's life.
Seth: Very depressing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, we'll get into this in a little bit, but part of the reason it's so depressing is that Jeremiah is prophesying during the reign of Josiah up to the exile.
David: Okay.
Seth: And the king before Josiah, well, k- two kings before Josiah, was a man named Manasseh.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he was... The Book of Kings paints him as the worst king in Israel's history. His name means, uh, forgetful or forgotten, and he forgets all the commands of the Torah. He enters into this relationship with Assyria, imports all of its gods and goddesses, starts killing his own children to their gods, encourages Israel to sacrifice their own children to secure political alliances with Assyria. And God says, "Because of your sins, Manasseh, Israel, Judah, will go into exile-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and it is inevitable." So much so that when Josiah finally becomes king and finds a copy of God's law and starts reinvigorating following the Torah, he-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... cuts off Assyrian alliances. He gets rid of all the idols in Israel. A prophetess comes up to him and says, "No matter how obedient you are, you cannot overturn the coming exile." Why? God promised that there would be a turning point, a breaking point-
David: Well, like, a point of no return.
Seth: A point of no return.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And after that point of no return, you would go into exile.
David: Mm.
Seth: So no matter your obedience, Josiah-
David: Y- Israel already crossed the threshold.
Seth: Right.
David: You're, you're-
Seth: You will go into exile
David: ... you're falling down the pit.
Seth: Right.
David: It doesn't matter how much you flail. [chuckles]
Seth: So the reason why Jeremiah's life is so tragic-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that there is no hope of not going into exile.
David: So many other prophets we read beg for repentance.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Repent that the Lord might turn back"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "You know, repent that you might be saved." Um, not every prophet does that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but is that not present in Jeremiah?
Seth: It is present-
David: Okay
Seth: ... but you can't avoid the exile first.
David: I see.
Seth: So-
David: So it's, it's not, "Repent so that this thing doesn't happen."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's, "Repent so that..."
Seth: It's repentant... So this is interesting.
David: Okay.
Seth: This, it, we could... I, I'm excited that we get to talk about this.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: So in the book of Deuteronomy, in chapter 28, it outlines all the covenant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... commands and curses. "Do this, you'll be blessed. Do this, and you'll go into exile," right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Deuteronomy chapter 30 says, "But after you come into exile, after you go into exile, I will return you-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to the land."
David: Right.
Seth: "And after you spend a period of time, uh, atoning for your sins in exile, I will return you to this land and give you everything that you once had."
David: Right.
Seth: So the Old Covenant, the, the covenant that God gave to Moses, anticipates a time of a point of no return, of idolatry and a- apostasy, of going into exile-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and an eventual returning, right?
David: A life, a death, a burial, and a resurrection? [chuckles]
Seth: That's right. So something like that, something like that. And Jeremiah is saying, "We know what the covenant says."
David: Yes.
Seth: "We know that in order to get back to our land, we must first go to... We must first die."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so he's calling Israel to that covenantal death that was predicted in the time of Moses so that they might be resurrected back into, um, uh, the, the promises that God has for God's people.
David: So obedience in Jeremiah, m- at a meta level, I'm sure he also wants them to stop, like, sacrificing their children to false gods-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and things, but at a meta level, it's, um, s- endure the coming Babylonian or-
Seth: Submit to it
David: ... submit to it, and then believe in a resurrection, a c- a communal resurrection, believe in a return.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause I know that's also an important word in Jeremiah, return.
Seth: ... Yep.
David: Um.
Seth: Return to God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... return to covenant faithfulness, ret-, yeah.
David: And then God will return you to the land.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what's fascinating is that returning to God, that returning to covenant faithfulness means embracing death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It means embracing the yoke of Babylonian oppression.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that is what must happen in order for God's covenant to be fulfilled.
David: So yeah, that, that makes sense then why it is such a depressing call to put on Jeremiah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because he's not calling them to revival and happy clappy worship meetings-
Seth: No
David: ... and, like, let's return back to all the old festivals and build the temple even better, and everything will be great here in Israel. It's h- his best case scenario is death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's calling people to accept-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the death that God has promised he'll bring on Israel.
Seth: That's right, and-
David: [exhales] Yeah
Seth: ... basically, the loss of an entire generation. So he'll prophesy-
David: 70 years. Yeah
Seth: ... that they'll spend 70 years in exile.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, so it's like even if you had a young guy in his 20s, like, "I believe the message of Jeremiah. I believe God will return us to this land"-
David: Right
Seth: ... it is not likely you would've lived through to the restoration of God.
David: Not in those days, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Man, okay. I mean, I've heard that Jeremiah is the weeping prophet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is... I mean, is this, is this the reason? [chuckles]
Seth: It- yeah, [chuckles] this is one of the main reasons. [laughs]
David: He's like, "This is the call you've put on my life, God?"
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's really hard.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, yeah, which is comforting in its own way, that-
Seth: Right
David: ... God could commission somebody to do something that kinda breaks them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, that's just not the easiest thing in the world to do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I feel like that sometimes, not to this level at all. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Right.
David: Yeah, that's-
Seth: An impossible task.
David: Yeah, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's helpful. Okay, that's-
Seth: We've talked-
David: ... that's the depressing prophecy.
Seth: That's the depressing prophecy. That's what he's doing as a spokesman for God, applying the covenant to this particular place in their religious and political history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... living in exile before it happens, and we've already said this implicitly, but he's predicting the future.
David: Yep.
Seth: Part of prophecy is actually predicting the future.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the very first chapter, he'll talk about this boiling pot coming from the north, and the idea is the boiling pot is spilling out, and the boiling water is just burning, and scarring, and scorching the land as it comes.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that boiling pot, one of the people in the boiling pot is Babylon-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who will come down and burn Jerusalem to the ground.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he's predicting that the exile that God predicted hundreds of years before, that had no name attached to it-
David: Mm
Seth: ... now has a name.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Your exile will come at the hands of Babylon.
David: Exile, thy name is Babylon.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes, so and that's what a prophet and prophecy is, [chuckles]
David: Great!
Seth: [chuckles] and how this plays out in the Book of Jeremiah.
David: Let me go lay down for an hour.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [chuckles] Okay. All right, what else do we need to know as we talk through, like, introducing us to the Book of Jeremiah?
Seth: Well, I think we should just talk through, like, so what was happening on the ground-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Jeremiah's day?
David: Yeah, you had, you had Manasseh.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Then you- then two kings later, you had Josiah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So you had, like, the worst and the point of no return.
Seth: Yep.
David: You're definitely going into exile no matter what.
Seth: Can I prove to you that, that Manasseh is the point of no return?
David: Yeah, I really... I didn't believe you, so- [chuckles]
Seth: You didn't believe me before? Let me, let me read this to you. This is, uh, 2 Chronicles 33:9.
David: Okay.
Seth: So end of 2 Chronicles, "But Manasseh led Judah and the people of Jerusalem astray, so that they did more evil than the nations the Lord had destroyed before the Israelites."
David: Mm.
Seth: The most evil, uh, leader in Israel's history. 2 Kings 21:6 says this: "Moreover, Manasseh shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end, beside the sins that he had caused Judah to commit. So they did evil in the Lord's eyes."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then when Jeremiah finally comes on the scene, he says, "I will make, uh, Judah abhorrent to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh, son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did to Jerusalem."
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like, Manasseh is this point of no return, and Jeremiah is prophesying after that fact, and in a really real sense, like, there's no atonement left for Judah.
David: Right.
Seth: They can only deepen their guilt or submit to God's consequence-
David: Mm, mm
Seth: ... submit to God's curse by going into exile.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so point of no return.
Seth: Point of no return happens.
David: Manasseh.
Seth: Um, there is a very short period of time where Manasseh's son, Ammon, takes the throne. He's only in power for, uh, two years, and he's assassinated very quickly, so he doesn't get much airtime in Jeremiah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then we get Josiah, who comes to the stage.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Josiah is eight years old when he becomes king.
David: Rock on.
Seth: He, great-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... young leader. Obviously, at that point in his reign, he, his, his country is ruled by regents, people who are older than him. However, when he becomes of ruling age-
David: Mm
Seth: ... at about 20 years old, he st- institutes all these religious reforms. He starts renovating Era- Israel's spiritual life.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He gets rid of all the idols. He ends Assyrian, um, alliances, and when he's 20 years old, Jeremiah's 20 years old, and so they are roughly 20 years old. So they are contemporaries, and they together understand that Israel's called to faithfulness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and is called to a faithfulness that won't produce restoration.
David: So they're both in a real fun spot.
Seth: Both in a real, real fun spot.
David: Man.
Seth: But what's interesting is you actually don't hear- where no prophecies in Jeremiah are tied to that period of Josiah's-
David: Mm
Seth: ... reign, even though they were contemporaries, even though Josiah reigned for ano- like, 20 years alongside Jeremiah. So even though Jeremiah prophesied for about 15, 20 years-
David: Mm
Seth: ... alongside Josiah, we don't get any prophecies attributed to that time-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... which is really interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: My guess as to the reason why these prophecies are not included is simply because Josiah and Jeremiah were on the same page. They were both calling Israel to faithfulness, and they both kind of understood the inevitable fall.... of Judah. And so they were just simpatico [chuckles] in that way. And so when Jeremiah does prophesy, it's generally, um, to kings who disagree with him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's the conflict that stirs up between, between them.
David: I remember when I was studying for the introduction video-
Seth: Yes
David: ... for Jeremiah, uh, one of the commentators I read talked about Jeremiah as the propag- the propaganda wing of Josiah.
Seth: Yeah! Yeah.
David: And not in a bad way.
Seth: No, no, no, that's good.
David: But it was like Jeremiah was like- or Josiah was setting out all these reforms, and Jeremiah, the prophet, was his mouthpiece.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it was like this campaign. I mean, imagine trying to go from edge to edge in this kingdom, rooting out evil, knocking down idols. You would need to spread that message of repentance and change and reform and the word of God, and, you know, that could have been that young, fiery season of two co-laborers-
Seth: That's right
David: ... taking over the kingdom, and it's like, well, that's not what Jeremiah's about.
Seth: Right.
David: About, like, reform and tear down the idols. It's about the coming doom-
Seth: That's right
David: ... inevitable, and that might not have been the hallmark of that period of their ministry.
Seth: What's interesting is, aside from the very beginning of Jeremiah's ministry when he's commissioned, the first 24 chapters of Jeremiah do not have any dates assigned to them.
David: Hmm.
Seth: The first date we get after Jeremiah's commissioning is Jeremiah 25, during the reign of Jehoiakim. So it's possible-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... that those first 24 chapters, where Jeremiah has this really shocking language, that Israel is this adulterous bride-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... rejecting God's, God's affectionate love for her, is part of that propaganda campaign.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: He is trying to shock the people back towards faithfulness to God. Um-
David: That's why college David loved [chuckles] Jeremiah 1 to 24.
Seth: Yeah, uh, it's like, "The temple's corrupt!" [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: "The- everything's corrupt! Burn it all down!" That's Jeremiah's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... first couple years.
David: Yeah, that's great.
Seth: First couple prophecies.
David: Sounds like my first couple of years in ministry, too. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] Um, so that is like, uh... So Jeremiah and Josiah are living alongside each other, but what's interesting about Josiah is that Josiah ends a remarkable, a reign of faithfulness to God by not listening to God.
David: Yeah, he ends on a downer.
Seth: He ends on a downer, and very specifically, he... So he makes his bread and butter by denying, um, a, an alliance with Assyria and denying Assyrian gods.
David: Right.
Seth: The very, very end of his reign, Assyria, by that time, has dwindled down as Babylon rises to power.
David: Hmm.
Seth: As Babylon's rising to power, it's eating up this, this Assyrian Empire. Assyria is a shell that it once was.
David: Hmm.
Seth: But there is an outpost of Assyrian forces just north of Judah, and at the very end of Jos- Josiah's reign, um, Assyria's under attack by Babylon, and Egypt goes to Assyria's aid to stop Babylon from encroaching on Assyrian territory. But Josiah is dead set against this, so much so that he goes and tries- he goes to war with Egypt to stop them helping the Assyrians, even though God specifically told Egypt to go help the Assyrians and-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... protect them. So here's what's crazy about all this. We don't know all the motives as to why Josiah did this, but what it seems as if, what we do know of Josiah, is that he was trying to protect Judah from Assyrian influences, and he didn't want, uh, Egypt to protect them.
David: Right.
Seth: Josiah assumed the best way Judah would be preserved-
David: Is for Assyria to get wiped off the map by Babylon
Seth: ... is, is for Assyria to get wiped off the map, and so he replaced his idea of what Judean sovereignty should look like with what the voice of God was saying.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And so the reason I say that is the next kings, Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, and Zedekiah, are all marked by rebellion against Babylon and other forces.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We don't have as much co- like, as much evidence to suggest there was rampant idolatry in Israel, but there, there was some. There was still some. But what we do get is a rejection of Babylonian power, a rejection of Egyptian power. We get a whole bunch of, like, Judean nationalism-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... to such an extent that it seems as if they're trying to protect God's nation at the expense of following God's laws.
David: 'Cause God, God has said, "I'm destroying this nation."
Seth: "I'm destroying this nation."
David: So they're not listening-
Seth: So they're not listening
David: ... just like Josiah didn't do at the end of his reign.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: I see what you're doing. Okay.
Seth: So Jeremiah keeps saying, "You must submit to Babylon."
David: Right.
Seth: "You must go under their yoke."
David: My best buddy, Jos- Josiah, did this at the end of his life, and he was-
Seth: That's right
David: ... shot by an arrow-
Seth: That's right
David: ... by the word of God. [chuckles]
Seth: So instead of submitting to God's punishment-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... they're protecting their nation.
David: Yes.
Seth: And they're by-
David: At, at any cost.
Seth: At any cost.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So the more they protect Judean sovereignty, the less likely it will be that the new covenant blessings of returning the land will happen.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So Jeremiah keeps telling the kings, "Submit to Babylon. Go into slavery." Uh, [chuckles] the-
David: The funny, [chuckles] a funny way to put that would be that, like, Jeremiah's prophetic career is trying to get the kings of Israel to rush to their death, because then-
Seth: Right
David: ... the 70-year clock can start.
Seth: That's right.
David: And he's like, "You just keep pushing back the timeline of when we can come back."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "We're doomed here."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "We need to go to the grave of exile so that we can come back."
Seth: That's right.
David: "And we're only gonna be fighting a losing battle until we submit to the word of God, even if that means the destruction of Israel and our temple."
Seth: Yes.
David: That's fascinating.
Seth: Super fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you can kinda... And so Jeremiah was seen as a traitor.
David: Oh, absolutely.
Seth: He's like, "You're telling all of our troops to stop fighting."
David: Right.
Seth: "You're a traitor to our nation, Jeremiah."
David: Yeah. "If we did what you are saying us, like, telling us to do, we would lose our border, lose our country-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... lose our capital, lose what's most important to us. You're, you're telling us to let the enemy troops invade and just put down our weapons?"
Seth: "You're telling us to live in Babylon and bless Babylon by-
David: Right
Seth: ... building societies there?" It, at one point, Jeremiah says, "Seek the peace of Babylon."
David: Right.
Seth: That's insane. Christine was really helpful in this. She said, "The, one way to get inside the head..." The, the analogy breaks down, is like just imagine-... um, your s- your prophet in Ukraine-
David: Mm.
Seth: - right now-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... telling Ukraine to submit to Russia.
David: Ugh!
Seth: Right, y- you would-
David: I mean, even if we heard of somebody doing that over here, we'd be like, "That- get that guy off the street."
Seth: So there is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a real sense, like, I mean, you- I feel that one.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, obviously, the, the, uh, like, Ukraine's not God's people. [laughs]
David: No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Russia is not Babylon.
David: It breaks down.
Seth: It breaks down very quickly, but the idea-
David: That's the offensive nature of the message.
Seth: It's like, there's this impoverished people that's being attacked on all sides-
David: By a world power
Seth: ... by a world power. These people are innocent-
David: Yep
Seth: ... presumably.
David: You're right.
Seth: God's people- they're God's people!
David: Right.
Seth: And you're telling them to sub- to surrender?
David: Mm.
Seth: To submit-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to an evil power-
David: Right
Seth: ... that likes to take the skins of their enemies and place it on the walls of their-
David: Mm
Seth: ... cities? No!
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: Oof
Seth: ... that's what Jeremiah's [chuckles] prophesying, and that's what he does throughout the reigns of all of Israel's final kings. And all of them, like Josiah before him, try to protect Judah until they're dissolved into exile.
David: Wow. [gentle music] Okay, so this is going on. That's the message of Jeremiah. That's the prophetic nature of his message.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What else do we need to set up before we dive into chapter 1, or have you set up the categories the way you want it?
Seth: I think that's everything we really need to know as we get into Jeremiah. Um-
David: Man, amazing. I mean, so some of the, some of my first observations.
Seth: Okay.
David: Can I make some-
Seth: Yeah, please
David: ... just, like-
Seth: Yes, please
David: ... outsider observations here as I step into this book with you? Uh, obviously, the one thing I've already hinted at, that, you know, tongue in cheek, but now we can actually talk about it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the death, burial, resurrection, like, message of Jeremiah-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is submit to death, because only through death is there life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That what you are, in the sin of it, the flesh of it, its current kingdom, has to die in order for it to be risen and returned again anew.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's, like, that's the picture of the Gospel.
Seth: It is.
David: We are the f- we are this fleshly, enslaved to the kingdom of this world person, and in the cross, we die in Christ, a- and so that we can raise a new creation and return to his kingdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as full cisterns ready to bless the world instead of empty ones.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, so that's beautiful.
Seth: It is super beautiful. And there's... We'll talk about this probably more in our third or fourth episode here, but what's interesting, as I said before, in Moses' covenant, he prophesies that there will be an exile-
David: Mm, mm-hmm
Seth: ... and there will be a return from that exile. Part of old covenant faithfulness is submitting to exile in hope of return, right?
David: Ever since the beginning.
Seth: Ever since the beginning. But what's fascinating about Jeremiah is he calls that acceptance of death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that restoration not the old covenant. He calls it the new covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's the only Old Testament author to refer to a new covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jeremiah is the only person who talks about a new covenant.
David: Wow.
Seth: And he refers to it while talking about what the old covenant promised.
David: Mm.
Seth: Isn't that... Do you, do you see what I'm saying there?
David: I see what you're saying.
Seth: So I think it's really interesting that there's this, like, continuity between Jeremiah understands that return-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that old covenant promise that we'll return to the land, is something entirely new that's happening.
David: But it was part of the old.
Seth: But it was part of the old.
David: Yeah. There's continuity, is what you're saying.
Seth: There's continuity there-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to what you're saying, it's like, old covenant faithfulness demands death.
David: Right.
Seth: And new covenant faithfulness begins in death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Do you know what I'm... Yeah.
David: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm having flashbacks to, like, four years ago, when you and I were walking through Deuteronomy.
Seth: Yes.
David: And we talked about this, that the law, as you read it and meditate on it, especially at the end of it, where it tells you you are going to break the law and go into exile only to return-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, it totally begs the question that Torah obedience-
Seth: Mm
David: ... doesn't just mean, uh, doing what it says to do.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's also, and Paul brings this up in Romans 7, is it is meant to show us that we can't-
Seth: Yep
David: ... that we must die, and that we must rely on the life-giving power of God-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... to actually do the saving.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That the, the Torah was not legalistic, right? It admitted that we couldn't keep it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it threw itself upon the resurrecting mercy of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: In Deuteronomy-
Seth: Right
David: ... the law is not legalistic, we are. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, it trained us from the beginning to depend on God's grace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so every... That's why, ever since the beginning, people could throw themselves on the mercy of some kind of resurrecting god, that-
Seth: Right
David: ... became Jesus!
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, so, uh, yeah, it's fascinating.
Seth: Yeah. One of the other ways I've been thinking about this, this idea, is that, so what is exile?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, maybe more, on a more meta level. It like... Exile is God's curse.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It is God's wrath.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So in order to be resurrected, we must submit to God's wrath-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or someone must submit in our place-
David: Right
Seth: ... to God's wrath, right? Someone must be cursed and exiled for us, if we want to have a life that's like life after death.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? With that in mind, first, it's like, we have texts that tell us that Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath in our place, so that we might have a new covenant.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus himself says, "This is a new covenant," and he could only be quoting Jeremiah-
David: Right
Seth: ... "in my spilled blood."
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: And so we must drink his death until he comes, if we want any part of his new kingdom.
David: Right, and if that hinge point of continuity between old and new covenant is that Deuteronomy 30, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 28 to 30 moment that you were talking about-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where it's like there's exile and death, and then return-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and Jesus, and, and, you know, Jeremiah hops in, and he's like, "That's the- where the new co- the old covenant and new covenant meet-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is in exile-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in death." Then, when Jesus says, "This is the new covenant of my blood"-... he's like, "I'm the one who died for you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I went- I did the death part. I did the exile part."
Seth: That's right.
David: "I did the curse part for you-
Seth: That's right.
David: -so you can get the return."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Man, that's amazing. The other thing I've been thinking about with this, thinking about, like, what is exile-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and this pattern that Jeremiah's focusing on here, is it's how the Bible starts.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? It starts with exile.
Seth: Oh, that's right.
David: It is the curse, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a- as you said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it is God's wrath.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is we were with God, we broke the, like, the little law they had [chuckles] and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they were exiled from his presence, but then what do you get right after that? You, you, you start getting promises-
Seth: Of return
David: ... and covenants-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and plans, and the initiative of God to get you back into the garden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's always been the pattern of the Bible since the first 12 chapters, is being in God's land-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... breaking God's law, going to death through exile from that presence-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... only to have him bring him- bring you back in grace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the pattern of the Bible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, I mean, can I just throw, like, a bomb question to you, see, I, like-
Seth: Yes.
David: Why does God do it that way? [chuckles]
Seth: Why does he demand death before life?
David: Yeah, like-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... why this cycle? [chuckles]
Seth: Why do we have to pick up our cross?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why do we lose our life to find it?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just, like, a... It's a, it's a fun may- maybe meditation to end on.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, it demands, like, humility and dependence. Any other method that doesn't demand a total death of all your hopes, dreams, aspirations, earnings-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you'd be able to look back and, like, be able to say that you earned your salvation.
David: Pat yourself on the back a little bit.
Seth: You can pat yourself on your back, and as soon as one person starts patting himself on the back, it creates favoritism.
David: Mm.
Seth: It creates inequity. It creates corruption. "I can do it. You can't." Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The most important relationship in the universe-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is our relationship with the God who wants to remake the world. If that is based on something we can do-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in a lifetime-
David: There is inequity
Seth: ... it will always create corruption.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It will always cr- create inequity. It will always create brokenness on Earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: But if it's only by grace-
David: If it's, if the, if the ground is level at the foot of the cross.
Seth: If it's only by dying and raising from the dead-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there can actually be a true kingdom that does not oppress its citizens, like Israel kept doing.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: There can be a true kingdom that, like, actually has Edenic life on Earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and that's what Jesus is beginning.
David: I love that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't think I thought of it that way. The, the thing that came to my mind, which I think is also cool, is the, the idea of felix culpa, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: The fortunate fall.
Seth: Okay, yes.
David: Uh, so felix culpa means fortunate fall, like, that... And the, the phrase is, "Fortunate fall that gained for us so great a Redeemer."
Seth: Mm.
David: That, that God is most glorified-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in raising us from the dead and saving dead things, exiled things-
Seth: Right
David: ... worthless things, than he would be in saving perfect-
Seth: Right
David: ... unspoiled, deserving things.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like he lets us, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... go into exile so that he can show us that he loves us even when we're dead-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even when we're separated, forsaken-
Seth: Right
David: ... unwanted, undeserving, is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he gets more glory. He's seen as he truly is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is infinitely loving-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and infinitely merciful and forgiving. He gets to show off his character, um-
Seth: Right
David: ... by letting us show off ours. [laughs]
Seth: Right. And by demanding death, that means everyone can get in.
David: Yeah. Oh, 'cause everybody can die. [laughs]
Seth: Everybody can die.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Not everyone can live a perfect life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Man, that's fascinating. And, uh... Yeah, so anyway, closing off that thought and just thinking about what we did with Jeremiah, too, is, is, like, just thinking of ourselves as Jeremiahs-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in his message.
Seth: Yes.
David: We have the same message.
Seth: We're calling people to come and die.
David: Come and die. Take up your cross. You have to die-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you want to live. Um, and we kinda mean that in two ways, in, in a sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, we mean that in you have to die to the human of sin that you are right now-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, and G- so, so that God can remake you-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and, and change you. Uh, and then also, you probably will die here on this earth.
Seth: Right.
David: But there's life on the other side.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and so it is interesting, as Christians, that we also are harbingers of death, in a sense-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm
David: ... but not in gloom and doom, fire and brimstone-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but in infinite grace, resurrection, life, return, hope, and glory.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, so-
Seth: Right
David: ... which is probably the only thing that even remotely kept Jeremiah getting out of bed every morning-
Seth: Right
David: ... waking up in the cistern. [chuckles]
Seth: We'll talk about this in a future podcast, but it's like Jeremiah, um, didn't have kids, didn't get married, didn't attend funerals-
David: Mm
Seth: ... didn't attend weddings, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, Jesus never got married.
David: Right.
Seth: He never had a family, and every time he went to a funeral, he raised the dead.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And every time he went to a wedding, he made it better.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and there's a real sense in which, like, Jesus... So in the same way that Jesus, or Jeremiah, embodies the life of an exile, Jesus begins to embody the life of the return.
David: [exhales]
Seth: Um, [laughs] and this is, uh-
David: That broke me. [chuckles]
Seth: ... [chuckles] this is, this is all thanks to Christine, and she... [chuckles] This is the n- the life of the return, and the life that we get to embody as well.
David: [exhales]
Seth: Uh, so-
David: All right. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: We can end on that-
Seth: Thank you [chuckles]
David: ... now that I'm finally crying.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh, well, thank you guys for joining us, um, in this introduction to the Book of Jeremiah. Next time, we're gonna jump into the first, uh, chapter, and the-
Seth: It's right
David: ... call of Jeremiah.
Seth: The prologue of the whole-
David: And the prologue
Seth: ... whole book
David: ... which sets up a lot of the themes and, uh, should be really great getting into the actual text a little bit more. So thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]