Spoken Gospel podcast with a photo of David and Seth

Leviticus 17-20: Blood, Sex, and Loving Your Neighbor

About This Episode

Why does God command us not to drink blood? Why does Jesus tell his disciples the opposite? How should we think about the Bible's sexual ethics? How can we love the law?

Listen Now Read Show Notes

Listen On

Apple Podcasts Youtube Spotify

Blood, Sex, and Loving Your Neighbor: What Leviticus 17–20 Tells Us About God

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart pick up their journey through the book of Leviticus by tackling chapters 17 through 20, a stretch of Scripture that moves from the sacrificial system into deeply personal territory. The conversation covers why blood is sacred, what ancient sexual ethics reveal about God's character, and how the law invites believers into a life that looks like new creation.

From the Altar to the Home: Leviticus 17 and the Sacredness of Blood

Leviticus 17 serves as a bridge between the public rituals of the tabernacle and the private morality that begins in chapter 18. Up to this point in Leviticus, the focus has been almost entirely communal — the sacrificial system, the consecration of priests, the Day of Atonement. Now the text begins to address what happens when the Israelites go home. But before it does, chapter 17 deals with two urgent matters: where sacrifices can take place and the prohibition against consuming blood.

The chapter opens with the problem of Israelites offering sacrifices outside the tabernacle, particularly to "goat demons" in the wilderness. This mirrors the golden calf incident following God's revelation at Sinai. Even after the Day of Atonement has been established and forgiveness offered, the people still pursue their own methods of accessing God. The command is clear — all domestic animals must be slaughtered at the tabernacle, and no sacrifices are to be made elsewhere. God is insisting on exclusive loyalty. He alone provides the means of atonement, and any attempt to secure forgiveness or spiritual power outside of his ordained way is a rejection of his covenant.

The prohibition against eating blood is grounded in a key theological statement from Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls." Blood is sacred because it represents life, and God has designated it specifically for the altar, not for consumption. The act of drinking blood, which was a common pagan practice, assumed that something magical resided in the blood itself — that consuming it could transfer an animal's strength or vitality to a person. God rejects this entirely. The blood is not powerful in itself; it is a symbol of the life God has given for atonement. Trusting in the blood sprinkled on the altar is an act of trust in God's provision, not an act of self-empowered ritual.

Drinking the Blood of Jesus: How John 6 Flips the Command

This prohibition makes Jesus's words in John 6 all the more provocative. The command against consuming blood runs throughout the Torah, the history books, the prophets, and even into the early church — the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 upheld it as one of the few ongoing requirements for Gentile believers. And yet Jesus tells his followers, "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" (John 6:54). The crowd's reaction — "This is a hard saying. Who can bear it?" — makes complete sense given the weight of this prohibition.

So why would Jesus say something the law strictly forbids? The answer lies in the difference between the blood of animals and the blood of Jesus. In the Old Testament, drinking blood was forbidden because there was no actual saving power in animal blood. It was only a symbol pointing to God's provision. Trusting in the blood on the altar was an act of trust in Yahweh, not in the substance itself. But in Jesus, the symbol and the reality converge. His blood actually accomplishes what animal blood only pictured. There is true power in Jesus's sacrifice — not symbolic, but actual. When Jesus commands his followers to drink his blood, he is not asking them to perform a pagan ritual. He is calling them to trust him. Throughout John 6, Jesus repeatedly equates eating his flesh and drinking his blood with seeing him and believing in him (John 6:40). The prohibition against drinking blood existed precisely so that when Jesus arrived, the invitation to "drink his blood" would carry its full weight. The law cleared the ground so that the Gospel could land.

Don't Be Like Egypt or Canaan: The Sexual Laws in Their Ancient Context

Chapter 18 marks a dramatic shift from the public sacrificial system to the most intimate areas of human life. The introduction sets the tone: "You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you" (Leviticus 18:3). God is forming a distinct people whose lives — including their most private relationships — reflect their unique covenant with him.

The sexual practices of the surrounding nations were far more extreme than modern readers often realize. Egyptian sources document marriages between siblings, especially within royal families. The law code of Hammurabi permitted several unions that Leviticus explicitly forbids. Bestiality was widely practiced in Egypt, Canaan, and among the Hittites — there were even Hittite laws from around 1500 B.C. legislating how to engage in it. Archaeological evidence from near Amman has uncovered pagan temples surrounded by charred children's bones, testifying to widespread child sacrifice. The Ugaritic texts describe even the gods engaging in sexual acts with animals. The world from which Israel came and the world into which they were headed both practiced things that Leviticus categorically forbids.

This context matters for two reasons. First, it shows that the Levitical sexual laws were not arbitrary impositions from a God obsessed with controlling private behavior. Every ancient culture had laws governing sex. What made Israel's laws different was their content — they represented a profound moral upgrade from the surrounding nations. Second, it undermines both the progressive myth that humanity is steadily improving and the conservative myth that the world is on an unprecedented downward spiral. Human rebellion has always expressed itself in similar ways. Disobedience is remarkably unoriginal.

The connection between sexual faithfulness and covenant faithfulness is woven throughout Scripture. Leviticus 17:7 describes the Israelites' idolatry as "whoring" after goat demons — possibly the first time the Bible uses the language of marital infidelity to describe spiritual unfaithfulness. This metaphor runs through the prophets, into Hosea's marriage to an adulterous wife, and into the New Testament. Paul makes the connection explicit in 1 Corinthians when he tells believers, "You are not your own. You were bought with a price" — and he says it in the context of sexual conduct. Just as Israel's rescue from Egypt gave God the right to define how his people should live, the believer's rescue through Jesus gives God the same authority today.

The Punishment of Death — Then and Now

One of the more difficult aspects of these chapters is the repeated penalty of death for violating the sexual laws. Chapter 20 prescribes execution for many of the offenses listed in chapter 18. The natural question for modern readers is why Christians no longer advocate the death penalty for sexual immorality if they still affirm that these behaviors are wrong.

The answer is not that the consequences have been softened but that they have been intensified. The New Testament does not downgrade the penalty for rebellion against God — it escalates it. Paul writes plainly that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), and the death he has in mind is not a civic execution but eternal separation from God. In ancient Israel, the death penalty for sexual sin was a real-time, historical picture of the eternal consequences of all rebellion. What God dramatized on the stage of Israel's national life, he promises to fulfill on the stage of eternity.

But this also means that God's grace has been escalated alongside his justice. In Israel, discovery of sexual sin could mean immediate execution. Today, no one faces that instant consequence. This delay is not indifference — it is mercy. As Paul argues in Romans 2, God's patience is meant to lead people to repentance, not to embolden further disobedience. The time between sin and judgment is a gift, an open door for anyone to turn to Jesus and receive the atonement he has already provided. Paul himself pointed to the Corinthian believers as proof: "Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 6:11).

Be Holy Because I Am Holy: The Law as a Window into God's Character

Chapter 19 is structured with remarkable literary precision. It contains two cycles of 21 laws, each organized around the phrase "I am the Lord" repeated seven times, with three laws following each declaration. The sevenfold structure echoes creation and signals that obedience to these commands is a picture of what new creation looks like — a world where people rest regularly, tell the truth, pay their workers promptly, respect the vulnerable, and deal justly with one another.

The motivation for obedience is not fear of punishment or the desire to earn God's approval. It is the opportunity to become like God. "Be holy, for I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:2) is not a threat but an invitation. Each command reveals something about God's character. When he says "do not lie," he is revealing that he is a God of truth. When he says "pay your workers without delay" (Leviticus 19:13), he reveals that he is a God who cares about the dignity and provision of laborers. The law is not merely a rulebook — it is theology. It tells us who God is, and knowing who God is is how we discover who we are meant to be. This is the pattern 1 John 3:2 describes: "When he appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." Looking at God transforms us into his likeness.

This also means the law functions as a minimum standard, not a ceiling. "Do not lie" implies "be a truth teller." "Pay your workers on time" implies "be generous with your employees." The Starbucks corporation, which is not a Christian company, arguably embodied the spirit of Leviticus 19:13 better than many believers by offering health insurance to part-time workers and generous compensation. Christians who read these laws should ask not merely "Am I obeying this?" but "What kind of God would command this, and how can I reflect his character more fully?"

Meditating on the Law: How One Command Opens Up the Whole Gospel

The episode closes with a practical demonstration of what it looks like to meditate on a single law. The command chosen is Leviticus 19:17: "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him." This is the very text Jesus draws on in the Sermon on the Mount when he says that hatred in the heart is equivalent to murder. The command addresses not just external behavior but internal disposition — it is not enough to refrain from harming your neighbor; you must not harbor resentment against them.

Reflecting on this command reveals something profound about God. He has not hated humanity in his heart despite every reason to do so. His wrath against rebellion is real and justified, but he has never merely stewed in anger. Instead, he has reasoned frankly with his people throughout redemptive history — through the law itself, through the prophets ("Come, let us reason together," Isaiah 1:18), through Paul reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus, and ultimately through Jesus, who became our brother and bore the consequences of our rebellion rather than holding it against us. God's love and his honesty about human disobedience led him not to passive resentment but to the cross.

This kind of slow, meditative reading is what the law was designed for. The kings of Israel were commanded in Deuteronomy to write out their own copy of the Torah by hand — not as a clerical exercise but as an act of meditation. Christians today can approach even the most obscure commands in Leviticus the same way: read one law, ask what it reveals about God, ask how Jesus fulfills it, and then consider what it means to reflect that same character in everyday life. As the psalmist writes in Psalm 119, the words of God are more desirable than gold and sweeter than honey. That kind of love for the law does not come naturally — it comes through practice.

Transcript

Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast.

Seth: Welcome.

David: We're glad you're joining us.

Seth: Today is the episode.

David: This is the episode?

Seth: That we talk about sex.

David: Oh, yeah. Been, you've been waiting [laughs] for that for some time.

Seth: Let's talk about sex, baby.

David: I mean, you are a youth pastor.

Seth: Let's talk about you and me.

David: You and, you and me?

Seth: All the good things-

David: Let's talk about all the good things-

Seth: And the bad things

David: ... and, and the bad things. W- that may be.

Seth: That may be in the Book of Leviticus.

David: That may be in the Book of Leviticus.

Seth: Also, in Pitch Perfect.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's a great moment in Pitch Perfect.

David: Oh.

Seth: The first one, the rap battle, when they have that.

David: Oh, like under the bridge or something.

Seth: Under the bridge, yes. [laughs]

David: Yeah, I remember that. It was very farcical.

Seth: Very.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Were you gonna say farcical? [laughs]

David: You were. You were.

Seth: I was going to. I was not.

David: You were.

Seth: That's something that David Bowden says.

David: That is not, no. That's some- yeah, it is.

Seth: [laughs] So Leviticus 17, David-

David: Yeah. Oh, sorry

Seth: ... is a continuation of the Book of Leviticus from Leviticus 16.

David: Wow. That is insightful. [laughs] Um, okay, yeah. So, um, we have had, uh, basically the table of contents at the beginning-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of here's all the different sacrifices that one could make at the tabernacle.

Seth: And they were kinda category sacrifices-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that were used throughout the book for different reasons throughout, for, throughout your life- [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... as a person in Israel.

David: Right. And then there was the, um, the kind of like the foot, uh, uh, the footnotes of the sacrifices. It's just, like, which is like the priestly manual for-

Seth: Right

David: ... how to do each of these sacrifices if you were the administrator of them as the priest.

Seth: Yep, and then you have the consecration of Aaron and his sons.

David: Yep.

Seth: And-

David: That doesn't go so well afterwards for his sons

Seth: No, it does not.

David: Yep.

Seth: And then we have the lead-up into the day of atonement, which-

David: Right

Seth: ... we talked about last, two weeks ago.

David: Two weeks ago, because last week, we spent a good hour talking about-

Seth: What is the law? Why does it exist?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Why do we follow some and not all of them today?

David: Yep. So, like, what does the Old Testament law mean for us today? Is it still binding? Is it not? Are certain ones are?

Seth: And why?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And why, and how does that work?

David: Yes.

Seth: And how should we be reading it?

David: So if you have not listened to that podcast, stop the recording right now. Push pause. Go back to the library.

Seth: It will be really helpful, like, honestly.

David: And yeah, like, seriously, and go listen to the, uh, episode we did on, um, should we obey the Old Testament laws because, um, it's gonna be way helpful 'cause we just don't have the time to lay that groundwork again today, uh, and walk through the text. So it's gonna be super important, uh, that you kind of have that framework. It was helpful for me. I think it was, it was-

Seth: Yep

David: ... it was good. So anyway, so now we get into, um, some laws, and for the first time, we, we turn, um, we turn the page, and, and, like, other than the first chapter, which is, which has to do, in chapter 17-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... which has to do with, um, killing animals-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... once we get to 18, it's, like, the first time that we really have private morality and private religion talked about in Leviticus. So far, everything's been very public. It's all about, like-

Seth: It's been this, the f-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the feast, this, well, not the feast, but this-

David: Yeah, but the-

Seth: ... big atonement festival.

David: That's right, yeah.

Seth: You have the-

David: All these sacrifices

Seth: ... sacrifice system.

David: It's all things done out in public. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know, it's like if you, if you were to do, like, a really crude, uh, modern equivalent, you'd be like, you know, 1 to 17 is about what you do at church.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You know? And then 18 and on, not, not all of it, but you know, 18 and, and through 21 or whatever is, like, how you act at home.

Seth: Right, right.

David: And so we're about to go home and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... see, like, yeah, great, you made your sacrifices at the tabernacle, but how do you act on Monday morning, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Charles Stanley's coming to your house. [laughs]

Seth: Who's Charles Stanley? [laughs]

David: Andy Stanley, sorry. Andy Stanley. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Who is Charles Staley? I don't know. But anyway, and so, um, but first, before we get into the home-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... chapter 17 is still kind of bridging the gap between-

Seth: It is

David: ... sacrifice and home.

Seth: Right.

David: Tabernacle and home.

Seth: And we talked about this a couple times, but it offers us a parallel to what happened back at the golden calf. So God shows, uh, reveals his covenant at Mount Sinai.

David: Right.

Seth: And as he comes down off the mountain, uh, Aaron, the priest, has created a golden calf, and he's worshiping God falsely. Um, and then the covenant has to be reestablished at that point. So right after we have the day of atonement, where God's covenant is being ratified and forgiveness is being offered to his people, they come out of the tent, and they realize the people are sinning just like Aaron did by sacrificing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to goat demons-

David: Right

Seth: ... out in the, uh-

David: Wilderness

Seth: ... wilderness.

David: Yep.

Seth: And we talked a lot about how there's probably some pretty heavy parallels between the goat of Azazel. So all the sacrifices were supposed to take place at the tent of meeting, except for one-

David: Right

Seth: ... where the goat of Azazel was led off into the wilderness.

David: Yep.

Seth: But apparently, a lot of the people started kind of trying to take, s- trying to make the sacrifice a little bit easier on themselves-

David: Yep

Seth: ... instead of taking it to the, to the tent of meeting, they would just go out in the wilderness themselves and sacrifice to the goat demons.

David: Yep.

Seth: So-

David: Or to any other god.

Seth: Any other god.

David: Or any other demon.

Seth: Well, it's mentioned goat demons here.

David: Right, yep.

Seth: Seven.

David: Yep.

Seth: But anyway, yes, so that's the point. So I think what you're supposed to see is that even though God is being faithful to reveal his presence, even though God is faithful to give the, to be in covenant relationship with his people, even though he is forgiving his people, the people are still deciding to go their own way, and there needs to be laws-

David: Right

Seth: ... that kind of correct them.

David: Right.

Seth: And these are those laws right here.

David: Yeah, and so the laws are basically that no domestic animals are to be killed anywhere except the tabernacle.

Seth: Yep.

David: Uh, no sacrifices are to be made anywhere except the tabernacle, uh, but you could hunt wild game-

Seth: Right

David: ... outside of the tabernacle.

Seth: Right, which is its own thing.

David: So those are k- kind of the broad categories-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of what's in 17.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: And the only other thing that's important about 17 is a law against eating blood.

David: That's the big one.

Seth: Right.

David: That's the, that's the big one, is they take great pains to [laughs] make sure that you know that you are not to eat any blood or to eat any animal that still has its blood in it.

Seth: And it says this in verse 11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life

David: Right. And so we might, like, zoom back for a second and go, why all these sacrifices? We talked about offerings for a long time. We, we answered this question way back at the introduction to the whole Book of Leviticus in our first podcast on Leviticus.

Seth: Right.

David: Um, but now, it's, it- we kind of get to the crux of the matter. Why all this, why all this, like, why all these animals? Why all this blood? [laughs] And it, and here is our answer, and it's twofold, right? First, it's, well be- w- blood is important, and it's sacred, it's set apart, because the life-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is in the blood.

Seth: It's a symbol of life.

David: Right. It's like you take the blood out of an animal, and it stops living. [laughs] So it's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... it's very clear that life is in the blood.

Seth: Right.

David: And this also goes back to, um, uh, what is it, Genesis 9, or, uh, with, with-

Seth: I don't know what you're talking about

David: ... after the flood, um, when, when-

Seth: Noah makes a sacrifice?

David: No, well, I mean, he does, but, uh, there's the prohibition against bloodshed.

Seth: Right, right, right, right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And, and he, and he talks about, you know, like-

Seth: Yeah, li- blood, like if-

David: ... life, life and blood being connected

Seth: ... if being separated from God is a picture of death-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... coming back into God's presence is true life.

David: Right.

Seth: And the way that you come back into God's presence of life, the presence of life, is by taking life onto yourself, and the blood of an animal is a symbol of that life.

David: Right. And so, so the first reason why you're not supposed to eat blood, why it's separate, is because life, life of the body is in the blood. And then the second is what you read just now, is, "I have given blood to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives." And so you can kinda do, like, an if-then statement. Like, uh, if an A, if A equals B, then, and, and C equals A-

Seth: Oh, okay, got it

David: ... then B equals C.

Seth: Okay.

David: That kinda thing.

Seth: Okay.

David: What, what's that called? An, uh-

Seth: Pythagoras's theorem?

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] A squared plus B squared equals C squared?

David: Oh, my gosh. I think what you're looking for is a syllogism.

Seth: Oh, right. Yeah.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Not Pythagorean theorem.

David: No.

Seth: A syllogism. Um, right, like, it's like a, if, if, uh, Ray Charles is blind, and... Uh, do you know this one?

David: No. [laughs]

Seth: Okay, it's like, it's like, it's like, God is love.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Therefore, Ray Charles is God. [laughs]

David: [laughs] That's a, it's a really bad syllogism.

Seth: It's a good one. I like that one.

David: [laughs] Okay, but, but here, we can see if life is in the blood, and blood makes atonement for life, then we can say that life makes atonement for life.

Seth: Yes.

David: Which is a really clear thing that's been happening in Leviticus, but it, it bears focusing in on here-

Seth: Right

David: ... that how, how, how, like, h- what's happening? Why, why all this death? Why all this blood? It's because life makes atonement for life. Life pays the ransom for life.

Seth: And I think it's important to see the method here, so that it's actually, it's made in the temple by the sprinkling of blood-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and not by drinking it.

David: Right.

Seth: So apparently, Israelites were actually drinking blood, and they needed to make a law that said, "No, don't drink blood." And so as I was thinking about that, um, I think this is why it's significant, because I think the act of drinking blood makes it feel like m- there's an assumption that there's something magic about the blood.

David: Right. Mm-hmm.

Seth: That if you drink it, you take the life onto itself, but that's never been the purpose of blood.

David: Right.

Seth: The blood is a symbol for life, and you are supposed to trust that when it's sprinkled in the temple, that is enough to cover your sins.

David: Right, right, right. It's, so it's not like Voldemort and unicorns.

Seth: Right, right. [laughs]

David: Right?

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Where, where Voldemort in, from Harry Potter-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... would go and, like, drink the blood of unicorns to stay alive-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... when he was, like, not totally embodied.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The point is that you are trusting the God who's made a way for your atonement-

David: Right

Seth: ... not that you're taking the blood itself and drinking it yourself.

David: Mm-hmm, which was a very pagan idea.

Seth: It was.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we'll l- see in a second that that's-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... part of-

David: Yeah, a lot of what we're about to read about is, is don't be like the pagans.

Seth: Right.

David: Don't be like the Canaanites or the Egyptians, the, the people from which you've come or the people to which you're going.

Seth: So this is why it's so shocking, then, that Jesus picks up on this language in John 6.

David: So shocking. So, like, like, think about this for a second. Like, the prohibition against drinking blood is all over the Torah. I- it's continued into the history books. The prophets talk about it, and then in, even in Acts, it is one of the only things in the law at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15-

Seth: Right, right, right, right

David: ... that is continued to be put on the church by the Jerusalem Council.

Seth: Right.

David: Is like, "Don't eat anything strangled." Why? Because the blood's still in it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? And so, like, and yet Jesus comes on the scene in John 6 and says-

Seth: "Whoever-"

David: ... "Drink my blood." [laughs]

Seth: Yes.

David: No, you can't do that. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Like, it's like, no wonder, what's the, after he says it, people just leave.

Seth: Right.

David: "This is a hard saying."

Seth: "This is a hard saying."

David: "Who can bear it?"

Seth: And they're like, "Peace." [laughs]

David: Right.

Seth: We're like, "We can't do this."

David: Yeah, so, like, why, then, would Jesus say to do something that the law strictly forbids? And even more, this isn't animal blood we're talking about. This, he's saying-

Seth: Human blood

David: ... human blood.

Seth: Right.

David: Which human sacrifice, we're about to see, is also forbidden.

Seth: Right.

David: And so it's like, this is wrong on so many accounts, Jesus, so why, what gives him the right to say this?

Seth: Well, one, I think he's being provocative intentionally.

David: No. [laughs]

Seth: He's intending to get a rise-

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: ... out of his audience.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he's trying to trigger in them, um, the response of faith. And so throughout John 6, Jesus has said over and over again something along the lines of this in verse 40: "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." And then he says, "I, uh, whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." For Jesus, drinking his blood means seeing him and trusting him. So in the Old Testament, in Leviticus, when it says, "Don't drink the blood, but there's atonement for you on the temple"-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's a symbol of faith. Don't drink the blood. Have faith in the blood that God has provided for you. And he's saying, he, Jesus is using that language, and he's say, "You used to drink the blood and thinking that it s- thinking that saved you. No, it's only in drinking my blood," which is actually a symbol for faith, [laughs] which is... Does that make sense? [laughs]

David: My, my brain hurts.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Okay.

Seth: I was trying to figure out a-

David: Okay, no, so-

Seth: ... clean way to say this, but-

David: Well, so what, okay, so there's what, 'cause also in this text, in, in John 6, is this is also the passage where he says, like, people ask him, "What good work must we do?"

Seth: And he says, "Believe in the one."

David: Believe.

Seth: Yes.

David: So faith. Okay, so it's definitely a faith passage. I get that.

Seth: Right.

David: But then also in the institution of the Lord's Supper, Jesus is say- is literally having you pick up a cup with red liquid in it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... put it in your mouth, and swallow it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And he says, "This is my blood." And it, so it's not a metaphor in terms of like, "Oh, yeah, there's ac- you don't actually ever drink anything."

Seth: Right.

David: You're only-

Seth: You drink wine. Yeah.

David: So I'm just like, is it only a mental ascent, trust, faith thing? Or like, was he actually also thinking about the institution of the Lord's Supper and...

Seth: Hmm. Well, most scholars will say that John 6 is not about the Lord's Supper-

David: Right

Seth: ... but the Lord's Supper is about John 6.

David: Oh.

Seth: So it's the wrong way around. 'Cause it, for John, John, there's no Last Supper in John 6.

David: Right.

Seth: And so the, m- most people don't think John's making a comment about the Last Supper, but the Last Supper's borrowing a lot of imagery. Anyway.

David: That's interesting.

Seth: So that's a whole different thing. Um, I don't know, honestly.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I've been trying to figure this out because it's like Jesus is literally flipping the command on its head.

David: Yes.

Seth: But not really, because he's really telling them, "Trust me."

David: Right.

Seth: "Have faith in me. I am the one. My blood makes atonement for you."

David: Yeah, but it's like, w- then wouldn't, then wouldn't he just say like, "I am the l- I am the goat that takes away the sins of the world"?

Seth: Right.

David: Or, you know, it's like, why drink the, why flip the command on its head? Why, why go to a-

Seth: [gasps] Oh.

David: Oh, whoa. Uh-oh, epiphany.

Seth: Because in the Old Testament-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... drinking the blood would be- and the blood being sprinkled in the temple-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... were separated from each other.

David: Right.

Seth: Faith and drinking were separated.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because faith would've assumed that the blood itself had some intrinsic power, and you were drinking it to your own benefit-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... usurping the, like, God's covenant commands. But in Jesus, drinking his blood and having faith in him are synonymous. They're not separate from each other. There is actually true power in Jesus's blood.

David: Oh, I see.

Seth: There was no power in the blood of bulls and goats. It was only a symbol. But in Jesus Christ, it is true power.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It is actually the life that cleanses you, not symbolically, but really.

David: Actually, yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Actually. So you, Jesus can faithfully say, "Drink my blood and I will save you."

David: Okay, so I think that might be helpful, because if what, what we're saying is that the prohibition against drinking blood was, was given because of the reasons people drank blood back then.

Seth: Yes.

David: People drank blood because they believed there was power in animal blood.

Seth: Right.

David: And so they would drink it in order to-

Seth: Gain the strength of that animal

David: ... gain that strength of the animal or to-

Seth: Right

David: ... yeah, or to like-

Seth: Appropriate its life

David: ... get more life for itself or something like that. Uh, but, but God said, "Don't ever do that."

Seth: Don't trust in the, the blood of any other animal-

David: Because there's no actual power in their-

Seth: Right

David: ... in their blood.

Seth: Trust my provision alone.

David: Right. And so the reason why the prohibition against drinking blood was given was so that one day Jesus might give the allowance of drinking blood that actually has power.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so it goes back to our conversation yesterday, how the law is not the f- is not the final expression of God's character and love-

David: Right, yeah

Seth: ... but a, a specific, like, God's character and, and holiness is expressed p- in particular times, in particular ways.

David: Right.

Seth: In Hebrews time, w- in the time of Leviticus, it was expressed in the way, "Don't drink blood, because you will drink it inappropriately."

David: Yeah.

Seth: But when Jesus comes like, "Do drink my blood, because this is the only way that you're saved."

David: Yeah. Okay, I like that. So what about these commands to not kill animals anywhere else but the tabernacle? Like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... what's, what's going on here? Any thoughts on that?

Seth: Well, I think it goes back to the, the Goat of Azazel thing.

David: Hmm.

Seth: They were trying to provide salvation for themselves, atonement for themselves, outside of God's ordained means.

David: Right.

Seth: The same thing with the drinking of blood. They're trying to gain life for themself outside of the means that God has ordained. And so God says, "No, don't do that. I have ordained the only way in which you will be atoned for, the only way in which you will be cleansed from your sin. So obey me and don't trust in your own methods and devices."

David: Right. I think because he knew that Israel had the, uh, the propensity to follow other gods and sacrifice to other gods, and, I mean, as soon as the Torah's over, we see that.

Seth: [laughs] Right.

David: It happens.

Seth: It's happening right now.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they sacrifice to, I think Baal of Peor is, like, the first one that we see, uh-

Seth: Outside of Leviticus

David: ... outside of, uh-huh, outside of Leviticus-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that they talk about. And, um, and so it's like he was trying to say, like, exclusive loyalty be- belongs to Yahweh alone. He's the one God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Seth: Trust him to bring you into his presence.

David: Right.

Seth: Trust him alone.

David: Yeah. And so, uh, he's saying like, "I- if I could just keep you here in the tabernacle, you would have these daily reminders that, like, allegiance belongs to me alone."

Seth: Right.

David: "That I am the only God that needs perpetuating," that, you know, all these different things.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Uh, you don't need to go anywhere else. There are no other gods. Even the goat for Azazel, you don't go out and, like, make a sacrifice to him. Like, it's just-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... sent out there. Like, we talked about that-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in the Day of Atonement episode. And so, um, I'm j- I'm like, I'm reminded of, you know, when Jesus kinda makes similar claims. He's talking about how exclusive loyalty belongs to him alone. He's like, "You can't serve both God and mammon," you know?

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, and then-

Seth: Yes

David: ... even Paul, in his letter to Corinthians, talks about how don't join yourself with demons by eating, you know, food that's-

Seth: Yes

David: ... you know, for demons.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, don't do that. Um, and so it's like I, I don't know what the modern equivalent of this is other than God and mammon's a little easier, God and money.

Seth: Right.

David: That, that kinda thing is a little easier, but-

Seth: Well, I think, I mean, it's, it's, again, these laws are an expression of God's character and holiness.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And what these laws are picking up on is the same thing we've seen throughout the Book of Genesis and the Book of Exodus, is that when left to our own devices, we would prefer to provide our own way to access God rather than God's way. Cain and Abe- uh, Eve-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and Adam-... wanted the knowledge of God, so they tried to take it.

David: Right.

Seth: Cain wanted to be accepted by God, but not on God's term, but on his own. Abraham wanted to receive the promise, but not on God's terms, on his own.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And even after the day of atonement, forgiveness has happened for everybody, they say, "We still want forgiveness. We still want life, but we want it on our terms-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... not God's."

David: Right.

Seth: So I think it's this, it's the pattern of human hearts everywhere, and today, we don't really trust in sacrifices to do that, but we do trust in things like money to give us the happiness, significance-

David: Right

Seth: ... the forgiveness, the absolution-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that we think that we can get.

David: Yep

Seth: Like-

David: Being socially aware enough, being our own person enough, being me enough.

Seth: Being self-aware enough.

David: Yep.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that, that will, that will give me the feeling of absolution, completion, um, absolvement that-

Seth: Right

David: ... I feel like I need.

Seth: Right, and again, like, I think those are helpful categories for us because that's what for, in the Isr- in the Hebrew imagination, where did you get self-fulfillment? Like, for them, it wasn't like this idea of, like, ascending the ladder of, like, uh, Asim- not Asimov's. [laughs] Not, uh, uh, not... Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

David: Oh.

Seth: It's like, for us, we have this idea, like, we have a m-

David: Being self-aware, yeah

Seth: ... right, like, if we get to the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we are a self-fulfilled individual.

David: Right.

Seth: But for most people in the ancient world was, it was being at one with the gods and-

David: Yes

Seth: ... being with them. So for their whole imaginative universe, the temple's wrapped up there. Uh, the idea of the self-fulfillment, forgiveness, wholeness, peace, righteousness, ch- being a just person-

David: Yep

Seth: ... being a socially aware person, it was all wrapped up in the temple. So when they, when God is, God is providing a means for that for them, and they are saying, "No, I wanna do it myself." [gentle music]

David: Okay, so now we get, now we come home. We kind of have bridged the gap between-

Seth: Right

David: ... what happens when you, between the tabernacle's altar and your house. Well, don't, don't kill animals outside of it.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Don't sacrifice animals outside of it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But then when you get home, does God really care what I do about, do, do that's not, that has nothing to do with the, the sacrifice? You know, that has nothing to do with animals.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's all Leviticus has been about so far.

Seth: Right.

David: And now we, now we get, like, we turn to 18, and we, it's all about sex, one of the most-

Seth: Wow

David: ... intimate, private, personal things that a person can do, seemingly.

Seth: Right, right.

David: That would, would be in our... Like, it's like, it's just sex. You know, it's like, it's just between me and this other person. It's fine. It was consensual. You know, all the, all this kinda stuff. Like, we have these, we have a, we have this view of sex in mo- in modernity-

Seth: Right

David: ... that's very private, very behind closed doors-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in terms of, like, it doesn't, it's just-

Seth: I think it's interesting-

David: ... for life

Seth: ... in chapter 17, it's the first time I've noticed it in the Bible, but it could be the first time, but whenever it talks about the goat demons-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... it says a- the goat demons after which you whore.

David: Right.

Seth: To, uh, I don't know if that's the first time it's, that, like, idolatry and worshiping other idols is described as whoredom.

David: It might be the, one of the first times.

Seth: And so one of the things-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that we need to understand is that throughout the Bible, that being unfaithful to the covenant is always described as marital infidelity.

David: Right, adultery.

Seth: Uh, as adultery.

David: Right.

Seth: Uh, as whoredom, as-

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, so if you, so because these laws are an expression of God's holiness and his character and his relationship with us, if we break our husband/father's ru-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, husband/father's, um, rules, I mean, it's not a rule when you say, "Don't sleep with somebody else." [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, when you're married-

David: Yeah, yeah

Seth: ... it is a rule.

David: Right.

Seth: But not that kind of rule. [laughs]

David: Yeah, not that kind of rule.

Seth: It's like not that kind of rule.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's, and so these are an expression of God's covenant love-

David: Right

Seth: ... towards us.

David: It may seem like a weird jump to go from don't kill animals to don't sleep with your sister.

Seth: Right.

David: But it's actually talking about the same thing. It's talking about covenant faithfulness. Will you be faithful to your relationship between your God and husband, Yahweh, and offer sacrifices to him alone at his house alone, or will you run after and whore after other gods?

Seth: Right.

David: Same thing happens when we turn into these rules on sexual purity, is will you remain faithful to the covenant that you make to your husband or wife? And-

Seth: Right

David: ... or will you whore after all these other relatives that you have?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so it's, it's just the same thing. And, and, and that's-

Seth: We talked about that a lot last week.

David: Yep.

Seth: So go back again and listen to that.

David: Yeah, and but that is what, um, what, what the law constantly wants us to see, is that the horizontal and the vertical are deeply integrated.

Seth: Right.

David: That what you, how you act horizontally affects what you do ver- uh, vertically and how you, and vice versa.

Seth: Right.

David: You know? And so it's like, if you, [laughs] like, if you're gonna have a broken relationship with God, you're gonna have a broken relationship with people. If you have a broken re- relationship with people, it also says that you have a broken relationship with God.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so marital infidelity is a picture of religious infidelity.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so they go hand in hand, so it's not a jump.

Seth: Which is what is picked up in the fair... So, like, the introduction to all these laws isn't actually to describe what we just described-

David: Right

Seth: ... about marital infidelity. It's to say this. It says, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, 'I am the Lord your God. I am. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt-

David: Yep

Seth: ... where you lived, and you shall not, you shall not do in the land of Canaan to which I am bringing you.'"

David: Right.

Seth: So what he's saying is, "Where you came from-

David: Yep

Seth: ... worshiped the gods, behaved in one way. Where you are going will worship gods and behave in another way, but you are a unique people, and I have a unique relationship with you, and that expresses itself in every area of your life, not just the sacrificial system," which we've just talked about, "but also in your m- in your, the most intimate relationships in your life. There's no part of my life, your life, that is unaffected by your allegiance to me and the nation that I'm bringing you to."

David: Right, the fact that God had brought them out of Egypt and is taking them into the promised land, um, gives a distinct characteristic to this people, and it also gives God the distinct right to say who this people should and shouldn't be because he has bought them. He has ransomed them.

Seth: Right.

David: They are his. And so, um-

Seth: So, so again-

David: Yeah, go ahead

Seth: ... what you s- you said there is picked up by Paul in the New Testament. He says, "You're not your own."

David: "You were bought with a price."

Seth: "You were bought with a price."

David: Hmm.

Seth: So this has actually been the consistent narrative throughout scripture, that human beings are not their own autonomous individuals who can decide for themselves what they do with their bodies and with the bodies of others. They have been purchased with a price. They have been rescued. Therefore, your bodies are not your own.

David: Yeah, and how interesting is that, when Paul quotes that in 1 Corinthians 7, I think-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... he's talking about sexual fidelity.

Seth: Yes, that's exactly right.

David: And so it's the exact same message that Leviticus is trying to communicate that Paul picks up in his letter to the Corinthians. Okay, what's really important for us to see here is, is what w- what was said at the opening of this, of this new section, is that they've left Egypt, and they're going to Canaan, and they're not supposed to be like either one of them. And so, uh, I have here a list of different practices, uh, by Egyptians and Canaanites that we have records of-

Seth: Okay

David: ... uh, that, like, survived-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that have been found in archeological digs and things like that, that show some of the things they practice that are then completely the antithesis is, is given here.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay, so, uh, family unions, right? So, um, we have Egyptian sources that show that the practice of marrying brothers and sisters, especially in royal lines-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... was a super common practice.

Seth: Okay.

David: Brothers and sisters would get married all the time. Um, Ham- uh, the, the law of Ham- law code of Hammurabi-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that we talked about last week, um, it forbids some of the unions that are in here, but it also allows for several that this text forbids.

Seth: Okay.

David: Um, and then if you even look back, uh, in Genesis-Some of the patriarchs in Genesis committed, like, infringed upon some of these laws, right?

Seth: Yeah, Abram, Abram married his half-sister-

David: Right

Seth: ... Sarai.

David: Which is not supposed to be done according to Leviticus.

Seth: Yeah. But again, it goes back to what we said last week.

David: Yep.

Seth: God's holy character is being expressed in different ways at different points of God's history-

David: That's right

Seth: ... covenant history with his people.

David: Yep.

Seth: So if that sounds blasphemous to you, go [laughs] back and listen-

David: Go back and listen

Seth: ... to last week.

David: Yeah. Okay, and then, um, bestiality was practiced constantly-

Seth: Ew

David: ... in, in Egypt, uh, in Canaan, and in, in the Hittite cultures. Uh, there was even this cult on the eastern delta of Egypt that involved women and goats cohabitating because there was a myth that Ramesses II, who might have been the pharaoh during the time of the Exodus-

Seth: Okay

David: ... was descended from the goat god that maybe was the one to whom they were sacrificing out in the wilderness.

Seth: Oh, that's crazy.

David: And so, like, women would just go live, like, live with, make husbands. Their, their husbands were goats, and they would just sleep with them and cohabitate with them, and, like, bestiality was just super common in the place from which they came.

Seth: I always, uh, is... Well, this is helpful for me because [laughs] a lot of-

David: [laughs] I never thought goats cohabitating with women would be helpful to anyone, but...

Seth: I think, well, one of the things that I hear, kind of a constant refrain that I hear, at least being in kind of the subcultural Christian West, is that we are in the worst place that the world has ever been.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: And that we're on this downward spiral, and the Lo- what's the, how's the Lord gonna use America if this is where we're headed?

David: [laughs] Sure.

Seth: Right? Like, have you heard that? Like, there's this, like, there's this narrative that it's like we're going to hell in a handbasket.

David: Right.

Seth: And I'm like, "Ah-"

David: It's mainly from pessimistic conservatives that I get that from.

Seth: Right, it is. Yeah.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: But I, I hear that often enough, and, like, I've always wanted to push back. It's like, I think the world's been bad from the beginning.

David: From the beginning.

Seth: And we're actually not as bad as you th- like, I don't understand all the bummer-

David: We're way worse than you think.

Seth: But-

David: And also, like-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... the, I don't believe in the downward spiral either. I think, like, I think we've always been bad.

Seth: [laughs] So I just-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when we say things like... I want, I just wanna point out, like, we-

David: I think the opposite m- myth is true, though, that, you know, since the Enlightenment, we just keep getting better and better.

Seth: We keep getting better and better.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's, both are false.

David: Yes.

Seth: We're far more, we're far worse-

David: Yep

Seth: ... than the progressives want us to make it-

David: Yes

Seth: ... out to be, and we're far better off [laughs] than some of the pr- some of the conservative Christians want us to be.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: I just want us to see, like, humanity's been depraved from the very beginning.

David: Yes, for a long time.

Seth: We've been trying to find our own way into the Garden of Eden for our entire lives, and throughout history, that quest, that self-salva- sa- saving quest has looked very different.

David: Right.

Seth: But it's the same types of sin.

David: Exactly, yeah.

Seth: Sin is actually very unoriginal. [laughs]

David: It is super unoriginal.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: It's got one trick. Um, okay, and so, um, not only did the people practice bestiality in Egypt, but even, uh, some of the, uh, Ugaritic texts that we have, which is, like, one of the closest parallels that we have for understanding the Book of Psalms and some of the-

Seth: Okay

David: ... language in it and everything like that, talks about even the gods having sex with animals. So, like, this was something that, well, if the gods do it, we can do it, you know? Like, so there was, the taboo that we have as moderners around bestiality did not really exist. Um, there was Hittite laws, um, that have been found that circa, like, 1500 BC.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 1500 BC. It's a long time ago, right?

Seth: It's a while ago.

David: And they actually have legislation around s- how to have, how to engage in bestiality appropriately.

Seth: Fascinating.

David: And so it's like [laughs]...

Seth: Imagine if that was in the Supreme Court, see. [laughs]

David: Yeah, that was, that was the court case-

Seth: Right

David: ... at the Supreme Court level. [laughs] And so, um, and then, so a- so we've talked, so there's, there's family unions that, that were common.

Seth: Right.

David: Bestiality was common. Child sacrifice was common. Recently, there was an archeological dig that took place, um, near Amman, where some of this would've taken place.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And they actually uncovered a, a temple, a pagan temple, and all in it and around it were charred children's bones because they practiced-

Seth: Child sacrifice

David: ... tons of child sacrifice. I mean, that is haunting, horrible, terrible, and, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's real. It happened.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, and so it's no wonder, then, that when we read through chapters 18 and on, we see these kinds of things spoken against.

Seth: Right.

David: Don't live like this, 'cause that is how, literally, that is how the Canaanites and the Egyptians lived.

Seth: So it's, so, and, okay, okay. So what we have here, then, is in one sense, like, a moral upgrade from-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the surrounding nations.

David: Right. Yes.

Seth: We have, these are a profoundly different way to live a life compared to everybody else.

David: Right.

Seth: And it also shows us that all the nations, not just Israel, had law codes like this. So it's not that it, God is particularly obsessed with our sexual lives-

David: Right

Seth: ... but that all cultures everywhere have attitudes and laws concerning sex.

David: Yep.

Seth: And this is the place where God has decided to talk about it in our Bibles as well.

David: That's right. Yeah, yeah, he's not... The, the law is not an original idea that, that there should be laws governing the morality of culture. The, we have, we have tons of texts that show that there were other cultures that had similar law codes. They even were framed similarly. They sounded similarly. We talked about some of this last week. Um, the point here is not that we have something idiosyncratic in history, or, or unique-

Seth: Right

David: ... I should say, in history, um, in Leviticus. It's that what it says is different. It's that it, it, it, it, it preserves a different kind of morality.

Seth: Yeah, and it sets up Israel as different from-

David: Right

Seth: ... all the surrounding cultures.

David: Yep.

Seth: So one of the things that we should be thinking about as well, even as modern readers of the law, is that the Christian sexual ethic, sexual ethics after Christ should look different than the surrounding cultures. And sometimes that will change. We can look more or less like the culture depending on-What the culture's like.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But the fact is God's pur- God des- desires that his people be unique, a light, be, um ... Like a, like I think they talked about like a shining beacon on a hill.

David: [laughs] Right, yeah.

Seth: Like a sh- a sexual be- [laughs] Oh, well.

David: A sexual beacon. [laughs]

Seth: But it's like there's a, there's a sense like the, the most intimate parts of our lives reflect a God and a culture that is different than the surrounding world.

David: Right, yeah. And, and like I think this is something that the New Testament clearly picks up on. Um, it's like so where is it that says like, "So the, live your lives among the Gentiles in s- in an, an upright way so that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's a, that's a, a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... slight misquote I know.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But the whole idea of the way we live, the way we love our neighbors, right? The way ... Like in, if you read the Sermon on the Mount, we turn the other cheek, and we pray for our enemies, and we do all these different things that make us look different, except this time we're not trying to look different from the Canaanites. We're trying to look different from the Pharisees a lot of-

Seth: Right. Yeah, yeah

David: ... the time in the, in the, in the Sermon on the Mount. And the point is so that we would let our light shine before the world. It's like, and like that's in the Sermon on the Mount. Like, you don't take a, a light and hide it, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, if you're s- if you're salty, go out there and salt food. Don't, don't become-

Seth: And it's taken-

David: ... don't taste like everyone else.

Seth: That's right.

David: Taste different.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Yeah. And so it's just really interesting to think about that this is a, this is a very New Testament thing. Um, and when Jesus came, he lived a very different life from the life of-

Seth: Right

David: ... like the way ... He followed the law in a very different way than the people of his time were following the law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, um, and it, it led to his death, which is ironic because the pun- the punishment for so many of these, breaking these laws is death.

Seth: Is death. So let's talk about, let's talk about that real quick.

David: Okay. Yep.

Seth: So like why then, so it's mentioned here that, uh, and then in a section following in chapter 20 that the punishment for a lot of these is death. We wouldn't say that the punishment for these sins is death now. Why?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And why is that, so why, if we're gonna s- if we're gonna be consistent, say, if this is an expression of the eternal character of God-

David: Right

Seth: ... why are we seeing a change in the punishment for these things?

David: A change from then to now, you mean?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh, I see. Um, well, one, I don't think there is a change.

Seth: Okay.

David: Um, we, we see clearly in the New Testament that the wages of sin is ...

Seth: Death.

David: Death. So there is not, there's not a change.

Seth: Right.

David: You sin, you die. And so in, in the old T- in, in, in the covenant Israel with the law, what we see is a real life played out in real time on a real historical stage what the grand narrative of, of eternity will be.

Seth: Right.

David: We get to see that God is wanting a distinct people to live a distinct way, and if they don't, there is death waiting for them. But they can escape that death by putting their faith in the atonement that, that is made for them. Like, all of this sounds very old and even pagan-

Seth: Right

David: ... and strange, but this is the Christian story-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that God is saving for himself a unique people, a holy people set apart from the rest of the world, and, um, they're saved from death because they have sinned and there is death life blood that has to be paid.

Seth: Right.

David: And, and but they, they escape that death and join the new covenant community by putting their faith in the atonement.

Seth: Right.

David: The blood on the altar. It's the ex- exact same story. And so-

Seth: So we talked about-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... last time, too, like it's not ... So what you're saying is the curses, the curse of death-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the punishment of death related to these things isn't actually downplayed in the Old, New Testament. It's ratcheted up.

David: Right.

Seth: The death that you'll experience for being sexually immoral is eternal death.

David: Right.

Seth: Eternal separation from the Lord. And so think about this then, I think, too, um, that means that God's grace is ratcheted up-

David: Yes, it has to be

Seth: ... in the New Testament.

David: Right.

Seth: Because you will not die immediately for your sexual sin. So right now as you're listening, if you are not a Christian or if you are currently engaging in some of the acts described here, you can feel like a condemnation from people like us speaking so matter-of-factly about sexual sin.

David: Right.

Seth: And like it deserves death. But think about this. The punishment for you is not death yet.

David: Mm.

Seth: You have time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Do not use God's mercy as an excuse to continue in your sin, but use God's mercy as a time to repent.

David: Right.

Seth: The Lord is waiting for you, invites you. He and says you have your whole life to make this decision, so make it now-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and avoid the consequences that are coming. You could've lived in Israel, and they could, you could've been found out, somebody saw you on Instagram or your, uh [laughs] your-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... your, your, your sex got leaked somewhere-

David: Right

Seth: ... and you could've been killed right then.

David: Yep.

Seth: But the Lord has placed you in a time where you have time to come to him and repent, and the kingdom of God can be yours. What does Paul say? "Such were some of you."

David: Mm.

Seth: Sexually immoral people, such were some of you, but now by God's grace, you've not taken advantage of his mercy but come to him because you love him and trust him to make atonement for you. [gentle music] Okay, chapter 19-

David: Yep

Seth: ... is-

David: Oh, hold on.

Seth: What?

David: I'm so sorry.

Seth: What?

David: Before you get into this, I don't, uh, uh, I, I just, quick note about the sexual laws from-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... the last chapter. Um, one of the reasons why, um, oh, what's it called? I, I already forgot. When you have sex with someone in your family.

Seth: Incest?

David: Incest. [laughs] Sorry.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I could not think of the word. It's a word I don't really wanna think of very often.

Seth: [laughs]

David: But the reason why incest is, is needing to be talked about here in chapter s- uh, in chapter 18-

Seth: Right

David: ... is because, um, like, uh, only getting married to your relatives in a sense-

Seth: Right

David: ... is assumed in this culture because-

Seth: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes

David: ... because this is God's chosen people, and you're only-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... supposed to marry other Israelites. You're not supposed to marry Canaanites. You know, you're supposed to marry Israelites. And the, and then in Deuteronomy they're even told-

Seth: That limits the dating pool.

David: It does.

Seth: [laughs]

David: And then in Deuteronomy it's even told that-You know, if you can, try to stay married in your own tribe.

Seth: Right.

David: Out of the 12 tribes, only marry your own tribe. So it's like, okay, so where's the line?

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Like, how close can my relative be? And Leviticus shows us, because God is preserving a people, so like-

Seth: Right

David: ... th- another cultural-

Seth: Another

David: ... moment.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's good.

David: I just thought that's-

Seth: That's helpful

David: ... anyway. Okay, chapter 19.

Seth: Chapter 19. In my Bible, it's l- uh, labeled, The Lord is Holy. In David's Bible, it's, uh-

David: No, it's not my Bible. [laughs] It was the, uh, the commentary I read.

Seth: The commentary's like-

David: How to be neighborly

Seth: ... how to, how to be neighborly. And what's fu- funny about this is-

David: It's both. [laughs]

Seth: It's both, because it's set up in sections of 21.

David: Sections of 21?

Seth: Se- 21 laws.

David: There's 21 laws.

Seth: There's 21 laws-

David: Okay

Seth: ... per section, and in that 21 laws-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... we're told that, "I am the l- that God is the Lord"-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... seven times.

David: Okay.

Seth: And there are three laws for each time the Lord says, "I am the Lord."

David: Okay, so I, it says, "I am the Lord."

Seth: Lord, three laws.

David: Three laws.

Seth: I am the Lord, three laws.

David: Three laws.

Seth: I am the Lord, three more laws.

David: And it says that seven times?

Seth: It says it, uh, s- seven times.

David: So s- okay, so that's how you get 21 laws.

Seth: That's how you get 21.

David: Seven times three, 21.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay.

Seth: It does that twice in, uh, the chapter, uh, chapter 19.

David: Okay, so is that just like cool literature thing or what's the point?

Seth: It's, it's, the point is that the whole law can be summed up in this, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength-"

David: I am the Lord

Seth: ... "and love your neighbor as yourself."

David: Do this to your neighbor.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay. Yeah.

Seth: So it's kind of like an encapsulation of the entire law, and it also points to, us to the fact that these are expressions of God's character. I am the Lord. That means your relationship with other people should look like this.

David: Mm.

Seth: I am the Lord, therefore, don't lie. I am the Lord, and I am truthful, therefore, you know, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... just use that example.

David: Okay, so, like 'cause constantly in-

Seth: It also goes back to the creation. It also, it like, there's also, it, sevens. Sev-

David: Oh

Seth: ... like, it's like, it's a thing, and it's, it's a thing.

David: It's a thing.

Seth: It's a thing in the Bible.

David: If you don't know about it, seven's like a thing. [laughs]

Seth: Seven's like a thing. World was made in seven days. There's rest every seven years. You're supposed to, to-

David: So does, like, living this way-

Seth: ... celebrate

David: ... following these rules-

Seth: ... the Sabbath comes on the seventh month

David: ... d- do, like, does following these rules then mean, like, you are living in the correct order of creation? Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... God has ordered the world in a certain way, and obeying these laws is the way that you live within that order.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay.

Seth: This is like-

David: That's cool

Seth: ... it's a picture of what new creation looks like.

David: Oh.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, okay.

Seth: It's like if you were to live a new creation, it would be these laws played out perfectly. There would not be any, uh, lying. People would respect their parents.

David: Right.

Seth: There would be regular patterns of rest. You would be able, it's like there's, like, gleaning laws, so like the, the most dispossessed and the least able are able to reap and eat by their efforts.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, everyone's able to participate in this new creation.

David: Right. Okay, so let's l- I wanna dive into something because it, it, like, it's, it's said here in our passage in Leviticus, and then I Peter, Peter picks it up in I Peter, is this whole idea to, like, be holy because I am holy.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? Uh, like, w- I want you to be holy 'cause I... Jesus said it in the Sermon on the Mount.

Seth: Yep.

David: Uh, "Be perfect because your heavenly Father is perfect." And so, like, why, like, I, this is not really how I think about morality-

Seth: Okay

David: ... especially growing up. I think I think about it more, more this way now, but I had to be trained [laughs] to think about it this way. I think my default position on morality is either maybe, like, do these things because they're the right things, or do these things because God said so, or do these things or else you'll get punished.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But what, the, the, the reason why, the motive for doing these things in Leviticus-

Seth: Because this is who God is

David: ... is because you can be like God.

Seth: Yes.

David: And, like, that kind of-

Seth: This is-

David: ... breaks me a little bit.

Seth: Yeah, this is who God is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: If you wanna be like God, do what he says.

David: Right.

Seth: That's, like, and the goal here isn't to be a good, virtuous citizen in its, for its own sake.

David: Right.

Seth: It's to be a good citizen of the Lord.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's to look like him in the world.

David: Which is like, that was the original temptation of the garden, right? Like, if you-

Seth: Yes

David: ... eat this tree, and you know good and evil, I mean, that's what the law is doing. It's helping us understand-

Seth: Right

David: ... what good and evil is. If you eat this tree, you'll know good and evil, and then you'll be like God.

Seth: Right, and God says, "No."

David: [laughs]

Seth: "You can be like God my way or no way."

David: Right.

Seth: And that's the whole tension of the entire Bible. Like, we wanna be like God on our own terms.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We wanna be autonomous, powerful, self-realized individuals by ourselves.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We wanna be gods on our own terms, but the Lord comes in the law, in the Torah, in the entire Bible, and says, "No, the way that you become like God is this way."

David: Okay, so I can't help but just want to run to a gospel truth.

Seth: Okay.

David: Because as soon as I start thinking about this, I start getting depressed because I-

Seth: 'Cause you're a liar, you're a-

David: I'm a, yes

Seth: ... you're a stealer.

David: Exactly. [laughs]

Seth: You, uh, you're an idol, man. [laughs]

David: I'm an idol man. I'm an idol man.

Seth: You're an idol man. [laughs]

David: Yeah, I didn't build a parapet on my roof, you know. I never go on my roof, but, you know, I could easily fall off of it. No, uh, but anyway, the reason why I get depressed-

Seth: You don't respect the deaf.

David: I definitely, wait. Aw.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I feel like I do.

Seth: That's 19:14.

David: But, uh, anyway, uh, like, I'm just like, I, I can't be perfect as Jesus is perfect. Like, when I read the Sermon on the Mount, you know, it's like, uh, I don't really love my enemies well.

Seth: Right.

David: So am I, is he gonna say, "I never knew you. Get away from me," you know, like, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount? Uh, I'm not holy as God is holy. I'm not perfect as Jesus was perfect. I don't obey the law the right way. I- if, if obeying the law is how I become like God, I'm never gonna be like God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: A- and so I just can't help but just want to run to a gospel truth.

Seth: Well, and it's, it's here for us in the, it's, uh, it's already here for us.

David: Is it?

Seth: The gospel truth is here in Leviticus for us.

David: Okay, read it to me. I need it.

Seth: "You shall just have, you sh- you shall have just balances, just weights. You should be a, a just person."

David: Yep.

Seth: "Because I am the Lord your God, who already brought you out of the land of Egypt." So this is not, these are not commands for people trying to be saved.

David: Right.

Seth: These are commands for people that God has already chosen to be like him.

David: Mm.

Seth: Who's given the ability to be like him. Well, Israel, we'll find out, was not given that ability.

David: That's right.

Seth: Deuteronomy-

David: They still had hard hearts

Seth: ... Deuteronomy-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... will pick up with the fact that they actually did not have a new heart-

David: Yep

Seth: ... to do these laws.

David: Right.

Seth: But we do.

David: Yes.

Seth: The good news is that we have already been saved, just like Israel was.

David: Mm.

Seth: And the better news is that we have a heart that's able to obey God's commands.

David: Right. Well, and I just can't, a- and I think even more, it's like you read, like, Ephesians 1 and some other places where it's like we've been made holy.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Be holy as I am holy."

Seth: Right

David: ... y- done.

Seth: Why-

David: Like-

Seth: Yeah, why do I need to do more? Yeah. [laughs]

David: I did it, like, because Jesus did it for me.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He made me spotless and blameless and holy. Like, He actually did that through His death and resurrection, through His Holy Spirit coming and making me His tabernacle. You know, it's like the Holy of Holies.

Seth: Right.

David: You know, it's called the Holy of Holies

Seth: So is your question, if like, if God has made me holy, why do I need to pursue more holiness?

David: No, no, no, that's not my question at all.

Seth: Oh.

David: I, like, I didn't have a question.

Seth: Oh, oh, oh.

David: I just, I just needed gospel truth to come-

Seth: Right

David: ... and be like, "I can't uphold all this law," like-

Seth: Right

David: ... you know? But, yeah.

Seth: One of the things that the law does is sh- show us that we-

David: Our inability. [laughs]

Seth: Our inability. And so what do we need? We need to hear the truth that God has made us holy.

David: Right.

Seth: And then we get to switch and say, "Okay, what's the other purpose of the law? To make me a just person."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "To make me like God."

David: Right.

Seth: And so I know that whenever I fail, there is an advocate f- for me.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Jesus Christ, the righteous.

David: Right.

Seth: John 1. Like, that's what happens. Like, we can be, we can feel free to fail as Christians because we know that our salvation and our holiness has actually been purchased by God for us.

David: Right. But that truth, like, I think what you're trying to say, is that truth moves us and compels us to live differently, to be the light on the hill, to be the-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... salt of the earth, to love our enemies, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Because, like, just as I- I- Israel was saved from Egypt, and that was the basis of God's commands for them to live differently-

Seth: Right

David: ... we've been saved by an even greater grace-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in Jesus Christ. Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, unlike, so, like, Christians actually read the law differently-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... than Old Testament Jewish people did, because whenever a Jewish person would read the law, the only thing they could get out of it was essentially condemnation. They could only ever feel condemned by it, and always feel the w- the weight of failing under it.

David: Is that true?

Seth: They-

David: I mean, I, I, I think about Psalm 119.

Seth: Yes.

David: And I'm like, "Your law is beautiful. It's be-"

Seth: It's true.

David: "It's more than, uh, more to be desired than gold. It's sweeter than honey." And it's like, I just don't, I feel like that might be a caricature of-

Seth: It might-

David: ... Old Testament Jews

Seth: ... it might be, and I don't, I don't mean that pejoratively. What I mean is that the law doesn't have the ability to save, and it doesn't have the ability to create in it the heart to be able to consistently do the right thing. Does that make sense? Maybe I, maybe I'm wrong.

David: I don't know. I, I, I just think that might, that might not be, it might be begging the question. That might not be what we're trying to get at here, is it's not that the, that, um, salvation was ineffective, but, like, I think what was supposed to happen was th- you were, you were supposed to look at the law, realize that you had broken it, right?

Seth: Right.

David: And then you read the Psalms, and you see Dave, David repenting and saying, like, "Oh, I've broken your law. I've not kept it. But I love it, so therefore, don't remember my sins. Forgive me." Right? "Don't let your spirit depart from me." He prays all these things in the Psalms.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And I think that's what Paul picks up on when he explains what the law was. It was our tutor, it was our guide, and it made us long for something, some kind of salvation outside of ourselves. And so I don't think it was necessarily, like, just, uh, just a vehicle, vehicle for condemnation. It was a vehicle for grace, and it was supposed to be this thing that said, "I can't uphold it, but I want to. It's so good and I want to obey it."

Seth: Right.

David: "I fall short, so I don't give up on obeying the law, and I don't give up on grace and just go full legalistic." I'll, the, the, the true, like, pure version of the law was supposed to be this thing that said, like, "You can't do this, but I still am gracious to you."

Seth: Right, and that's 'cause, that's good because people who, the Old Testament Jews will be in heaven.

David: Yes.

Seth: Those who trusted in God to save them-

David: Right

Seth: ... will be in heaven.

David: Yeah, let's talk about this.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, so because one of my [laughs] ... I'm gonna go weird for a second. So you, oh, you like 30 Rock, too.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah. So one of my favorite parts of 30 Rock is Kenneth Parcell.

Seth: A TV show that-

David: Is it? Yeah, it's, yeah

Seth: ... most people don't know about.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But continue.

David: It was on NBC, and, uh, there's this goofy guy named Kenneth Parcell in it, and he's an NBC page. And he plays this, like, backwoods redneck who has, is overly convicted about his religious Christian beliefs.

Seth: Which is, like, cultish the more you-

David: Yeah.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Yeah, yeah, it's like, he's like, like, a part of, like, a deep Christian cult. And he, like, he sings this song randomly, and it's like, "Oh, everyone who lived before Jesus is in hell."

Seth: [laughs]

David: "They went straight to hell," and then he gets cut off. But it's like, that's what, like, I've actually heard-

Seth: Right

David: ... non-Christians f- like, be like, "So everyone before Jesus is just in hell?"

Seth: No.

David: It's like, no. In fact, like, the New Testament talks about this. And so what we're saying is, like, Old Testament Jews who put their faith in the sacrificial system, who understood that they couldn't fulfill the law, and they cried out for grace, who were, who was longing for the Messiah to come back and be the promised seed of Eve, to do everything that it promised it would do, like, they were saved the exact same way we're saved.

Seth: Right.

David: Right? They looked forward to a future Messiah that they did not know about. We look backwards to a Messiah that we do know about, who has come, and by both of us reaching backwards or forwards, placing our faith on Jesus, we're saved.

Seth: That's right.

David: Not because we uphold the law a certain way, but because we put our faith in Jesus, and so we're all saved by faith because of grace.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, that's, that's the whole way it works.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so, like, the sacrificial system here in Leviticus was supposed to make them realize that they needed salvation, that they needed atonement, and them putting their faith in this atonement, not in sacrificing to goat demons or anything like that, but saying, "Yahweh will save me," like, through his mercy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, like, putting their faith in that, that's how they were saved, not by upholding these laws.

Seth: So that's good.

David: Okay.

Seth: We've gospel truthed it.

David: Got it. [laughs]

Seth: We've got, so, like, how do we read the laws well?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So when it says, "Keep the Sabbath, don't o- offer offerings, be just, be righteous, um, respect the deaf, respect the blind, respect God, be fair," like, how do we read those well as Christians, knowing all that?

David: Right.

Seth: What should our response be to these commands?

David: Yeah. I think we talked a little bit about this last week, and we talked about it when we did the, the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But w- each command of God shows us something about God.

Seth: Right.

David: And so we should be asking the questionWho is God based on these commands?

Seth: Well, let me, let's pause right there.

David: Yeah, sure.

Seth: Before we get there, why don't we just say just do it?

David: Just, just obey them.

Seth: Just obey them. These are good laws.

David: Right.

Seth: It's good to respect people.

David: Right.

Seth: It's good to respect the Lord. It's good to be just.

David: Right.

Seth: Why shouldn't our first thing we say, like, do it?

David: I think because when we read the New Testament, we see that now I'm allowed to drink Jesus's blood.

Seth: Okay.

David: Right? Uh-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... and now don't call anything that I've made unclean. I can eat pigs.

Seth: So what you're saying is that for us to truly receive the wisdom the Torah has for us, and that's what, one thing we haven't talked about, this is wisdom.

David: This is wisdom literature.

Seth: Wisdom, wisdom literature.

David: Meditative wisdom literature.

Seth: So when, when David in Psalm 1 says, "The words of your Lord are life to me,"-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... he's talking about these laws in Leviticus.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so more than likely, what you're saying he did and what we should do as Christians is when you see a law, we should like, okay, I wanna obey that law.

David: Yep.

Seth: And I wanna obey it so well that I'm not just going to obey it.

David: Right.

Seth: I'm gonna think about the God who commanded it and then obey it from my heart.

David: Right.

Seth: That's what you're saying.

David: Yeah. It's not just a rule book that you have to follow, and if you follow them well, then you're a good Christian, you know, or a good Jew for that matter.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like really what God is wanting you to do is reflect on who he is and what his intention is for the world and what he's making through us as his new covenant people. Like, he wants us to see a glimpse of new creation. Like, that's why this is all built in this literary style.

Seth: Right.

David: It's because this isn't a, this isn't law, this is theology that's happening. Like, God is not trying to tell us necessarily exactly how to live. He's trying to tell us who he is, and then based on who he is, we find out who we are supposed to be.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Which is why you have this constant back and forth. I am the Lord your God. Love me.

Seth: Right.

David: Now act this way. I am the Lord your God. Love me. Act this way. Because he's trying to show us who he is, and when we get a glimpse of who he is, that's when we become who we're supposed to be, which the New Testament picks up on. In 1 John 3:2, we're told that when we see Jesus when he returns, we will become like him. And so, like, that's the whole story of the Bible is look at God, and you'll become like him.

Seth: So in a lot of ways, what you're saying too is that the law is the minimum standard for holiness. So when it says here, so like, right, it's like not lying is good.

David: Yes. Right.

Seth: Do not lie. [laughs]

David: Right.

Seth: Don't do that, but be a truth teller.

David: Yes.

Seth: Be like God. Be consistent in everything that you say. And I was even looking at, uh, 19:13. Like, be swift to pay your employees.

David: Oh, right. Yeah.

Seth: Like, it's like, okay, that's, that's the minimum standard for the care of your employees.

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: But I, I worked at Starbucks for a long time, and I thought they so well embodied what it means to be... Like, they're not a Christian corporation.

David: No.

Seth: But I thought they did such a good job of embodying this text by paying health insurance benefits for part-time people, being generous with their compensation packages, making sure that we had vacation days, giving us free pounds of coffee. They did this command better than a lot of Christians do.

David: Yeah. [laughs] Right.

Seth: Because in the... They're not doing this, but what we should be doing as Christians when we see something like that, if you're a Christian business owner, is be, say, "Okay, how can I embody not just the command-

David: Right

Seth: ... but the God who cares about employees?"

David: Right. And this is important because, not only because we're not just trying to obey a command, we're trying to be like God.

Seth: Right.

David: That's a big part of it. The other part i- is, that's actually the bigger part of it, I should say.

Seth: Right.

David: The smaller part of it is what we talked about last week, which is these are not all the things that God wants people to do.

Seth: Right.

David: The, the, the Old Testament law, or the whole Bible for that matter, is not an exhaustive list of rules that God wants us to follow. There are things-

Seth: Which is why this-

David: ... that God wants of us that just aren't recorded.

Seth: This is why it's structured in sevens.

David: That's right.

Seth: Sets of seven. Why? Because to give you a picture, a snapshot-

David: It's a snapshot, yeah

Seth: ... of the new creation.

David: Right.

Seth: Not the fullness of it.

David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, we have to know that if he says don't lie, he also means be a truth teller. Like, there are so many implications-

Seth: Right

David: ... around not being a liar, and then we're told-

Seth: Don't fudge the truth. Don't stretch the truth.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Don't-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... don't exaggerate your stories.

David: Right.

Seth: Tell them the real size of the fish that you caught.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Like, you know, like... [laughs]

David: Yes. Yeah. So I, I think that's great. Um, s- I mean, how do you, if, so if, if, if, if someone's listening to this podcast first, and then they're like, "Okay, fine, I'll, I'll give Leviticus 17 and on a go-

Seth: Right

David: ... and I'll try to read me some law code."

Seth: Yeah.

David: What would you hope that they would be thinking while they're reading it, and what do you hope that they would, like, feel when they walk away from it?

Seth: I would hope, here's, here's the, the hope that, something that I might never do, but I probably should.

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: And I think it would be really beneficial. If this is wisdom literature, if this is a distillation and an application of the character of God for a particular people at a particular time, it has something to tell us about God. So we talked about this off the air last time, but I would love it if people did what David did, or all the kings were commanded to do in Deuteronomy-

David: Oh, right. Yep

Seth: ... and to keep their own copy of the law, and what that meant was they literally wrote it out by hand. But I can also imagine that while they were doing that, they were meditating on each law, thinking about the G- type of God who would command such a thing, and then thinking about other things that might mean. So what we just did.

David: Right. Yep.

Seth: Not lying means being a truth teller. What would it mean to be like a truth-telling God? If God would make me as truthful as I could possibly be-

David: Mm

Seth: ... how would that change my life?

David: Right.

Seth: What would I be like? How would my interactions be different? How much more candid would I be? Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like-

David: Yeah, I mean, like, d- do, is the, is the, is me putting on a fake smile a lie?

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And maybe it's not.

David: Right.

Seth: But may-

David: But meditate on it

Seth: ... but meditate on it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Think about it. So if I, I was gonna tell somebody to spend time in the law, I was like, okay, don't read it all.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: Read one.

David: Yep.

Seth: And then spend 10 minutes, five minutes-

David: Meditating on it

Seth: ... meditating on it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then let that be enough for the day. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because it's a long book. [laughs]

David: Yeah, and if you get discouraged, I would, I would say, like, go just, just throw your finger down anywhere in Psalm 119 and be like'Cause every single verse talks about the law-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and how David loves the law. And so, like, just, like, if you get discouraged, like, the law is beautiful. Like, it is more to be desired than a bank account full of money. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... reading one law and meditating on it, and getting to see the character of God and who he wants to make you to be, is better than a steak dinner.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, I don't know if I believe that yet.

Seth: Yeah, right.

David: But I want to.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, I want to desire the law like David did, and so, like, I would, I would, I would say yeah, like, learn to love the law, and, um, like, it's, it's in- it's, it's not in your Bible to be a stumbling block.

Seth: So let's do that right now.

David: It's like... Oh, okay.

Seth: Let's do it for our listeners.

David: Sure.

Seth: How much time do we have left? Five minutes?

David: Yeah, about five minutes, yeah.

Seth: So let's not go to child sacrifices.

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: Nobody wants to do that. We'll do that next week.

David: Okay, great. [laughs]

Seth: We'll do that next week. Let's just take a law. I'm gonna put my finger-

David: Oh, okay, you're gonna do what we just said-

Seth: I'm gonna do it

David: ... for one of the teams

Seth: ... I'm gonna do what we just said.

David: Okay. What do we got?

Seth: "You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it." We've already done that one.

David: Oh, we did it. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Done.

Seth: Do it again. [laughs] Okay, I put, "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him."

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: So reason frankly with your neighbor, and not hate your brother in his heart. I think brother is neighbor.

David: Yep, mm-hmm.

Seth: Neighbor and brother are synonymous.

David: Yep.

Seth: So don't hate your neighbor, and reason frankly with him.

David: Okay.

Seth: Which are two, this, this is a really interesting one, because it actually goes b- beyond mere, like, obedience.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's actually s- a disposition towards him.

David: Right. Yeah, love your brother in your heart.

Seth: And reason-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... with him well.

David: So, uh, c- oh, 'cause it actually says, "Don't hate your brother in your heart," right?

Seth: Yeah, don't hate your brother in-

David: Right, which Jesus picks up on this.

Seth: He does.

David: You know, he says, like, you know, y- you know it says don't murder, but I say don't even hate your brother in your heart.

Seth: It's like, it-

David: Which he's quoting here

Seth: ... he's quoting here.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, um, I mean, if I was to think about, I'm like, man, I don't hate... I'm just gonna think about my actual neighbors.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: Right? And I'm like, I don't hate my neighbors. Like, but I don't really know my neighbors very well.

Seth: Yeah. How about the opposite? Do you love your neighbors?

David: Yeah, I don't think I-

Seth: [laughs]

David: I definitely don't love... If I do, I'm the worst person-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... that you'd wanna have love you.

Seth: I'm the type of, I'm the guy who loves you by never talking to you. [laughs]

David: By never talking to you. Yeah, and so I'm like, okay, I- I, yeah, I don't really love my neighbors. Um, I definitely don't love my neighbors. Uh, does that mean I hate them? I don't actively hate them, but, I mean-

Seth: I think, well, think of it, so-

David: But they're lost, and I'm not giving [laughs] them Jesus or-

Seth: I think-

David: ... inviting them into my home

Seth: ... I think there's one sense, like, everybody's your neighbor, and you could always be-

David: Definitely

Seth: ... increasing your circle-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... of neighbors.

David: Right.

Seth: But think about people that you actually interact with in a given day.

David: Okay.

Seth: What does it mean to not resent people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that you actually interact with?

David: Right.

Seth: And I think that's-

David: 'Cause I think what he's talking about here is probably, like, you've got a conflict with someone.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, reason with them, don't just hate them.

Seth: Yeah, 'cause I can think about all sorts of conflicts at work, where it's been like-

David: Yep

Seth: ... "Oh, I, so they said something that was, put me off, and so I'm, but I'm not gonna confront them about it."

David: I'm just gonna stew.

Seth: I'm just gonna stew.

David: Yep.

Seth: And there's been times where I've just thought and thought and thought, "Oh, my gosh-

David: And even, like-

Seth: ... I can't believe they said that"

David: ... you go and talk to other people about it, and you're like, "Can you believe they did this?" Or even on a, on a softer side, like, "Man, can I process this with you?" Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... "So and so did this, and it's really difficult."

Seth: "Did I really hear that right? Did I hear that right?"

David: It's like, just go reason with them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Just go talk to your neighbor.

Seth: "Hey, you said this, and it hurt my feelings."

David: Right.

Seth: "Can we talk about that?"

David: Yeah. And, like, let- uh let's think about what this tells us about who God is, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause let's not just jump straight to application.

Seth: Right, right.

David: We really messed up with-

Seth: Yeah, we m- we missed a-

David: We did

Seth: ... we s- we missed our own step.

David: See, we, we, we mess it up.

Seth: But again-

David: Yeah, yeah

Seth: ... this is all part of the process.

David: It is.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: And so, like, what does it say about God? I mean, the cool thing [laughs] is, like, God has, one, decided not to hate us in his heart.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, even though we stirred up his wrath over and over and o- and he, his is good wrath. Like, it's always correct. He's right to be angry.

Seth: And I think you could even say, like, his-

David: You know, like, there's that, there's that be angry and don't sin.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I think is, is that in h- this passage?

Seth: Uh, Jesus says it.

David: Jesus said, but I think it's also, like, anyway, I think it's-

Seth: Well, I was even thinking-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, God's like, God has an honest opinion about our sin.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he doesn't hide it from us.

David: That's right.

Seth: Like, he, [laughs] you know what I mean? It's like, he doesn't, he doesn't soft pedal the fact that he doesn't like our sin.

David: Yeah. And that, yeah.

Seth: And like, he's very, [laughs] you know?

David: He has, he has reasoned frankly with us.

Seth: He's reas- [laughs] he's reasoned very frankly with us.

David: And he's like, "The wages of sin is death."

Seth: Oh.

David: Uh, but he's also said, "But I'm not gonna hold it against you. I've given you, I, I have loved you so much, that I'm not just gonna harbor it in, in my heart, nor am I gonna just come out and just lash out against you. Instead, I-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... am going to take the punishment of sin upon myself. I'm gonna be a really good neighbor."

Seth: And-

David: Like [laughs]

Seth: ... what's e- well, yeah, not only is he just gonna be a really good neighbor, he becomes a good neighbor.

David: Yeah, 'cause he moves into the neighborhood.

Seth: He becomes our brother.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because of Jesus's death, we have a brother in Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I, I was thinking about, like, man, God's love for us and his reason, uh, God's love and his frank reasoning with us actually led him to become our brother.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So, like, we are supposed to reason frankly with our brothers-

David: Right

Seth: ... but that's because God became our brother-

David: Right

Seth: ... after reason frank- reasoning frankly with us, "Your sin is d- means death."

David: Right.

Seth: And said, "The only way that I can do that is by loving you, even to p- the point of death."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Death on a cross.

David: And then I also started thinking about him reasoning frankly with us, and I started thinking about all the prophets.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: And, like, including this, like, he is talking to his people, reasoning with them, trying to set up a system in which they could function in a healthy relationship.

Seth: "Let me give you a living parable by marrying this adulterous woman."

David: Hosea, right?

Seth: Like, like, yeah.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's like, let me just, like, every possible way-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that I can communicate to you-

David: He tried and tried-

Seth: ... the consequences of your actions

David: ... and tried and tried to reason with us frankly. Uh, oh, oh, think about constantly in the prophets, what is the opening line of his calls to, God's calls to repentance? "Come, let us reason together," Isaiah 1.

Seth: Oh.

David: "Let us reason together." God is trying to be a reasonable brother. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: Like, he's like, "Come, let's reason together. Your sins are like scarlet, but they could be as white as snow. Just repent."

Seth: [laughs]

David: And he's like, "Let's just be neighborly."

Seth: Or when Paul goes into all the un- unreached cities.

David: Yep.

Seth: He says, "I went into the hall of Tyrannus, and reasoned daily."

David: Yep, I reasoned with them. Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I, I went in, I opened scripture, and I tried to reason with them.

Seth: Always be willing to give a reason for your faith.

David: Right.

Seth: That's cool.

David: Wow. See, you could just keep unpacking it-

Seth: Right

David: ... is the point. A- and, like, it becomes more beautiful to you the more you do it. And, uh- Oh, I love it. It's so cool

Seth: ... so if we were gonna commend something to you, find a friend.

David: Yep.

Seth: You don't need a podcast mic in front of you.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But do this-

David: Right

Seth: ... with each of the laws.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Slowly. Do one at a time.

David: Yeah. It's a lot of fun. And so, uh, anyway, well There's some, some laws in Leviticus.

Seth: [laughs]

David: There you go.

Seth: There you go.

David: It, it was good. I think this is, this is helping me love, love Leviticus more, love law and literature more.

Seth: It's helping me understand why David could be t- could gush-

David: Could gush

Seth: ... in Psalm 119.

David: 'Cause, yeah, I maybe that's the reason. Maybe I don't just need to be like, "Man, I really wish I loved my law more." I just need to, like, practice-

Seth: Practice loving it

David: ... loving it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, and we actually have a really good example of this.

Seth: Yeah, a friend of ours, friend of the show n- named Brady E.

David: Brady E.

Seth: Brady E. from-

David: From Oklahoma City

Seth: ... [laughs] from Oklahoma City, uh, was meditating on the story of Judah and Tamar-

David: Right

Seth: ... in the Book of Genesis.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So if you remember, David-

David: Yeah, yeah, we, uh, I think this was our first Joseph podcast we did, and it, we talked about the story of Judah and Tamar. Uh, God hated Judah's first two sons so much, they were so sinful, that they just dropped dead.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Which left Tamar, uh, completely widowed.

Seth: Widowed.

David: And, um-

Seth: But also the one who was supposed to bear the promised seed.

David: Right. So we're like, "Oh, no, what's gonna happen to the promised seed?" Well, there was a younger son of Judah that he was supposed to give to Tamar, but he didn't, so Judah was unfaithful. So Tamar tricks Judah into sleeping with her by posing as a cult prostitute, and she gets pregnant, and because she was pregnant and didn't have a husband-

Seth: Out of wedlock, she was gonna get burned at the stake

David: ... she was gonna get burned at the stake, and she appeals by holding up some of Judah's personal artifacts and saying, "He's the husband." And Judah's like, "No, it's true. I totally did have sex with her." And he's like-

Seth: She was m-

David: ... "She's more righteous than I am because she was willing to do whatever it took to preserve the, the line."

Seth: It's a crazy story. [laughs]

David: It's a crazy story.

Seth: You can go back and listen to it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But-

David: And so anyway, Brady was meditating on it and, uh, had this amazing gospel turn, and so he left me a voicemail. And so we're gonna share it with you, and if you wanna do the same thing, if, if-

Seth: Please.

David: Yeah, if-

Seth: Do so.

David: You can-

Seth: We wanna see how everybody's seeing Jesus-

David: Yeah, you can film-

Seth: ... in all of scripture

David: ... you can, you can film yourself. You can give us a voice recording. You can write in. Uh, you can send it to, um, [email protected], and, uh, we'd love to feature it on the air. So anyway, here's our friend Brady talking about how he saw Jesus in the story of Judah and Tamar.

Brady: As you guys were talking about it, I realized that such, that basically it's a broken pre-telling, if you will, of the gospel, um, in that Tamar is literally a prostitute bride, which is, which is us, and she, uh, th- the only th- you know, she's, she's standing there broken and going to be burned at the stake, um, because she was unfaithful to the son that the father would not give her. Judah ends up saying, you know, "You're, she's more righteous than I." And because he is, he's an, an, an imperfect father who did not give his son to the prostitute bride, um, to, to save her, basically, to con- to, to, to, uh, metaphorically let her live forever through her, you know, through her offspring. So she's, uh, the unfaithful prostitute bride who, uh, is, is going to be cut off because the son did not come. Uh, the father did not give the son to her to, to save her from, you know, from, from being cut off. Uh, and then she stands judged and is guilty and, um, ends up having to point out to the father, "You should have given me your son. That's wh- that's what would've saved me." And so it's, it's, it's this broken version of the gospel, whereas it's fulfilled through God the Father and Jesus the Son when we, the, uh, the, the prostitute bride, not only are unfaithful but are enemies of, of God the Father and of, of Jesus the Son. And yet the Father still gives, um, the Son to the prostitute bride to save her and let her live forever. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]

Related Resources

Listen to the Leviticus 24 and 26-27: The Death Penalty, Curses, and Vows podcast

Listen Now

Free videos sent straight to your inbox.

Blood, Sex, and Loving Your Neighbor: What Leviticus 17–20 Tells Us About God

Show Notes

From the Altar to the Home: Leviticus 17 and the Sacredness of Blood

Drinking the Blood of Jesus: How John 6 Flips the Command

Don't Be Like Egypt or Canaan: The Sexual Laws in Their Ancient Context

The Punishment of Death — Then and Now

Be Holy Because I Am Holy: The Law as a Window into God's Character

Meditating on the Law: How One Command Opens Up the Whole Gospel

Related Resources

Introduction to Leviticus

View our devotional on Leviticus 1-3

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Leviticus Introduction podcast

Listen to the Should We Obey The Law Today? podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 1-5: Offerings podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 6-10: Priests podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 11-15: Unclean Foods, Diseases, and Emissions podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 16: Day of Atonement podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 17-20: Blood, Sex, and Loving Your Neighbor podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 21-22: A Different Standard For Priests podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 23 and 25: Sabbath, Festivals, and Jubilee podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 24 and 26-27: The Death Penalty, Curses, and Vows podcast