Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Okay. Well, welcome to, um, our new series on the book of Leviticus.
Seth: Season tres.
David: Season three, if we, if we did seasons.
Seth: If we did seasons. [laughs]
David: This would be season three. Um, but yeah, uh, I'm really excited about doing this book.
Seth: Really?
David: I really am. I- as I was studying f- the Torah over the last year for the Spoken Gospel project-
Seth: This is the part of the Bible where everyone stops reading in their Bible yearly plan. [laughs]
David: Oh, yeah, either this or Numbers.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] That's true.
David: Like, they, they slog through Leviticus-
Seth: But I did it
David: ... and then, and then there's more
Seth: Oh, wait, I did it. [laughs]
David: Then they get to a census and they're like, "I give up." Um, but I, I really kind of fell in love with Leviticus, um, while I was studying the Torah as a whole.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, because I learned that Levit- this book actually sits in the center of the Torah, not just literarily, like if you open up the middle.
Seth: Right.
David: But, but thematically-
Seth: Yeah, there's two books on either side
David: ... yeah, right, but thematically it sits in the middle. And so in the Hebrew mind, when they were writing, um... You know, for us, we would, we would often put the most important thing at the beginning or the end.
Seth: Right, right, right. Yeah.
David: Right? They put it in the middle.
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: And so, uh, the, it, 'cause the whole worldview is a mountaintop for them, and so you would have a plain on either side, and then it would build up, and up, and up, and up into a peak.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so Leviticus is the mountain of the Torah-
Seth: Right
David: ... and the peak of that mountain is the Day of Atonement-
Seth: On 16 and 17
David: ... in Leviticus 16 and 17.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And so, uh, yeah.
Seth: So we are climbing the mountain of the Lord today.
David: We are. This is the climax of the Torah, and it's, and it, and it's like... So, so it might feel weird. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Um-
Seth: Well, we should probably just re- So we've kind of done the books out of order. We went Exodus-
David: That's right
Seth: ... then Genesis-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then now Leviticus.
David: Now we're gonna go kind of in order, yeah.
Seth: But the basic story of the Torah so far was that we were in the garden, in God's perfect presence-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in H- God's house. We fell away from that by deciding that we [laughs] were smarter than God. But even through that process, Lor- the Lord, uh, elected, chose a specific family to bring us back into the Garden of Eden.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they went through this 400-year period in Egypt in slavery, but God's bringing them out of slavery into God's presence, into the Promised Land for the first, for the first time, and he's building a temple where his presence will live in the middle of his people, just like it did in the Garden of Eden.
David: Right.
Seth: And so at the end of Exodus, the temple has been built.
David: The tabernacle, yep.
Seth: The tabernacle has been built. Moses is going in to communicate with the Lord, just like Adam and Eve did in the garden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and he can't.
David: He can't get in.
Seth: He's prevented from going in, and the book of Leviticus opens with a whole bunch of sacrifices-
David: Right
Seth: ... on, apparently on how he's gonna get in-
David: Right
Seth: ... which is actually what happens in the book.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, Moses actually gets in to the tabernacle.
David: Yes. And so that's the question ringing in our ears when we turn from the end of Exodus to the beginning of Leviticus, is how can we enter into God's presence?
Seth: Yeah, how can we be... How can we... Yeah, that's the, that's, you said it already. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I don't know, I don't know what I could have added to that question-
David: That's so good
Seth: ... besides saying the same thing again.
David: Yeah. Um, let me ask this, 'cause I think this is really important. Um, why, why, why should we want to live in God's presence? Why should we wanna be in God's presence? Like, why is that a good-
Seth: Right
David: ... to which all this is pointing?
Seth: Yeah, I hear a lot of people talk about being in God's presence. God's presence, every, God's presence is everything.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: It's not about the religious rules, it's about being in God's presence. And so-
David: It's about being in his presence
Seth: ... and so sometimes I feel like that's just kinda weird, mystical language.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I'm not su- quite sure what they mean by God's presence. So, but the question is, why should we wanna live in God's presence?
David: Yeah, like, why is all of this worth it? 'Cause we're about to talk about so many sacrifices, so many rules, clean and unclean things. We're gonna go through so much rigmarole. Why is it-
Seth: Rigmarole
David: ... why, why is all this worth it to be in God's presence? That's my question.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. I mean, so if we were to look at, like, the rest of the Bible, you know, there's really simple truths like, uh, I think of Psalm 16:11, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: "In your presence-"
Seth: "There's fullness of joy."
David: "... and at my right hand-"
Seth: "And at your right hand are pleasures forevermore."
David: That's right. So, like, it, do you want full joy? [laughs] Do you want pleasure forevermore?
Seth: Right.
David: Y- y- yeah, sure, sign me up. Where is that? It's in God's presence.
Seth: And I'm trying to think, too, even through the Torah already-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what has God's presence meant to the people in it?
David: Mm.
Seth: To Adam and Eve, it meant perfection, in one sense-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or, like, perfect unity with God. It meant peace.
David: Yep.
Seth: It meant, like, ruling and reigning with the Lord, and being in proper relationship with each other-
David: And the world
Seth: ... and with the world.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, when we have other characters who come near God's presence or who talk to God, like Joseph-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, mysteries are revealed to him.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, in prayer, Moses is given sons and visions of his covenant. So to, like, be in God's presence throughout the Torah so far has been meant for, like, promises to be, like, doubled down on-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for us to understand them more fully, to become more appreciative of what God has already done to us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the past, to have a sense of ruling and reigning and being in right relationship with one another and with God.
David: Yeah. That's good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I like that.
Seth: Those are all good things.
David: Well, and then at the end of Exodus, what do we see, too, about God's presence? Y- we see Moses kind of being the mouthpiece for what our desires should be, and he says, "God, show me your glory."
Seth: Right.
David: Like, he wants to be in God's presence.
Seth: Right.
David: He wants to see God's presence. And, um, it's so good and it's so glorious that in that brief encounter, Moses hits the deck, and he's so overwhelmed by it, and his face is glowing, and no one can handle it. It's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's the presence I think we should have in our mind when we turn to Leviticus, and it's like, there's this-... glory in the tabernacle that the wisest person in the Bible right now is saying, "You really gotta see this."
Seth: Right. And in God's presence too, it's not just all these good things, it's also been terrifying on the Mount Sinai.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It's been thunder and fire-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and cloud and smoke.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But in the presence, the Lord speaks directly and reveals his law and reveals-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way that w- in which he wants us to live.
David: I would also think that, like, let's think narratively here, that they have been brought out of Egypt by this, by this god, right? He's conquered their enemies, he's been, he's provided for them through the wilderness, you know, to, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... with manna and quail and water from a rock, and all this stuff. And then he is saying, "Now you're gonna go to this promised land, and there's Canaanites and Parasites and-"
Seth: Parasites. [laughs]
David: Yeah. That's what I always call the Parasites.
Seth: The Parasites? The Parasites.
David: Yeah, I like the Parasites. But imagine y- you're going into this place and it's gonna be really hard. Wouldn't you want that god who conquered your enemies in Egypt to be with you-
Seth: Right
David: ... when you go into this new place to conquer new enemies?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's like, well, i- we, if we, if we're gonna go there, I want this god to stay with us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in order to, for him to stay with us, he's gonna give us these rules of how to be able to stay in his presence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So God's presence is also good 'cause it's protection.
Seth: Yeah, and that's-
David: And it's power
Seth: ... I mean, is essential- and it's his name, I Am.
David: Oh, right, I Am With You.
Seth: I Am With You.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, his name is an expression of presence.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And when God came near Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he saved them from slavery.
David: Right.
Seth: He redeemed them from the, the Pharaoh, and he provided for them in food and in water. So to be in God's presence is really to be back in Eden-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be given everything that you need, right?
David: That's r- I've never thought about that as like God's name, as the in, as the intrinsic, like his, his most intrinsic character. That who is God? He is the one who is with us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is-
Seth: Who's present with us
David: ... present.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like the, that, like you wanna know, like who has God revealed himself to be, is the one who is near us, who is with us. And like, there's something about God's nature that he's revealed to us in the Bible, that who he is, is a God who wants to be near. And so in order to do that, he's giving us Leviticus to say-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, "I really wanna be with you, and trust me, you really wanna be with me." [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: But there's some things that have to take place first.
Seth: Right, so and that's expressed in the fact that the tabernacle is supposed to be the center of-
David: The camp
Seth: ... the camp.
David: That's right.
Seth: The tabernacle's in the middle of camp.
David: Yep.
Seth: And what it's supposed to communicate just by the geography-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that he wants to be with his people, the center of life with his people. And as Moses goes in, tries to go, and he can't.
David: Right.
Seth: Something has to happen first.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the posture of the Bible is that God wants to be with his people. I think a lot of the times I come to Leviticus, or I've had in mind, is like, God doesn't wanna be with his people.
David: Mm.
Seth: And if you wanna be here, you've gotta try really hard and read some-
David: You gotta pay the price. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Read some really hard rules-
David: Right
Seth: ... and do them precisely, otherwise you can't come in.
David: Mm.
Seth: So what we're really saying is not that God is fencing himself from everybody else-
David: Right
Seth: ... trying to make sure that people don't come u- unless it's a really big problem.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is the way we talk about prayer all the time.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, "Well, I don't wanna bother God with that. It's just a headache."
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: "I don't wanna bother God with that-
David: Right
Seth: ... 'cause he, he's got more important things to do."
David: God doesn't really care about my headache.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think we have this image of God that he's, like, fencing his presence-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and his power from us for the big things and for the people who really wanna put in the effort. But really the story of the Bible is God has wanted to be in the center with his people all the time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But we're the ones who are hesitant to draw near to him.
David: Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Seth: We don't wanna go to him on the mountain. We wanna run away from his presence in the Garden of Eden.
David: Yep.
Seth: We don't trust that he's actually there when he says, "My name is I Am."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You know? Like-
David: And then when he shows up, we're like, "Ugh, I wish we were just back somewhere where you aren't."
Seth: Right.
David: Back in Egypt. Yeah. That's real interesting. Okay, so then when we open up Leviticus, and we're assuming that we want this God to be with us because his presence is good, it's intrinsic to his nature. We want him to conquer our enemies whenever we go from this place, all these reasons. Um, the first thing we read about when we turn into Leviticus is [laughs] this law about burnt offerings.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like, it's just weird that-
Seth: So the first th- sacrifice
David: ... sacrifice.
Seth: Animals. [laughs]
David: The first thing, killing an animal is like, "Oh, man, Moses can't get in. What are we gonna do?" "Uh, kill an animal."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's, for us, that's totally, it's not the first time we've seen sacrifices in the Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: So apparently Israel was familiar with sacrifices. They were in Egypt where they were obviously sacrificing to their gods. Abraham sacrificed and split open the animals.
David: Cain and Abel.
Seth: Cain and Abel. Like, the patriarchs and the people in the Old Testament were familiar with sacrifices.
David: Yeah, so which I think we should see Cain and Abel in this story, where it's like-
Seth: Oh, okay
David: ... well, think about it. The, uh, in, in Genesis 3 and 4, they, people were, were kicked, Adam and Eve were kicked out of the land.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And they wanna get back in. They're at the gate of the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: They have Cain and Abel, and what do they do? They bring sacrifices to the gate in order, in trying to get back into God's presence.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's what's happening here, except this, but remember, we talked about, when we talked about it in Genesis l- a while back, that we're not told why they were offering sacrifices or who gave them rules for how, how it was-
Seth: Right
David: ... or, like, why Abel's was good and Cain's was bad. But here, in God's grace, we're given how to sacrifice to God in an acceptable fashion.
Seth: Right. Well, what, what, what does God say to Cain? He's like, "Don't you know-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that if you do good-
David: Right
Seth: ... you'll be accepted."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if we're at the presence, uh, or right in front of the Garden of Eden offering sacrifices like Cain and Abel, this is God's rule book or God's guide to say-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "Here's how you're not like Cain. Here's how you do good."
David: Yeah. Here's how to do good.
Seth: "Here's how you'll be accepted into my presence."
David: Yeah. So I think that's really cool. So, um, and, and yeah, so we've, we've seen sacrifice throughout Ex-
Seth: But again, like-
David: ... throughout the, the Leviticus so far
Seth: ... why animals?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Why does it have to be animals?
David: Yeah. It's, uh, it, it, it can be kinda strange for people to be like, "Why are we killing animals all of a sudden?"
Seth: Strange for me. [laughs]
David: Yeah, no, yeah, it's definitely strange for me, too. I think that, um, what we need to see here is that there's something different about an animal sacrifice than any other kind of sacrifice. And even in these opening chapters, we're going to see that it's not only animals that are sacrificed.
Seth: Right, there's a grain-
David: There's a grain offering coming up
Seth: ... salt and bread.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: All that's gonna come up. But there is something distinct about a, an animal sacrifice, um, in that only animals share one particular property with us as humans that nothing else in the world does, and that is blood.And blood-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... is a huge theme in Leviticus, and, and the reason why is it- it's because God says that life is in the blood.
Seth: So the reason animals are offered is because they share this type of life force-
David: Right
Seth: ... with us, this blood-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that's not... Plants don't have blood.
David: Plants don't have that, yep.
Seth: But animals do.
David: That's right. And, and we see that connection to- that we have to animals back in the Garden of Eden, um, because w- we are told that, uh, that animals are, have this Hebrew word nefesh, which is a soul.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right?
Seth: So-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'll see my dog in heaven. [laughs]
David: Well, we're not going into an eternal soul necessarily, but we, but we also said that God made man a living nefesh. That we-
Seth: Okay
David: ... so we have this shared-
Seth: So whatever it means
David: ... life quality. Whatever it means, we're not, that's not the scope of this show, uh, or this episode.
Seth: But there is something shared between animals-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and humans-
David: That's right
Seth: ... that's in- that's connected enough and important enough that an animal can replace a human-
David: That's right
Seth: ... or stand in place of a human-
David: Right
Seth: ... in a, in a temple in a sacrifice.
David: Yep, that's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, the... And there's going to be specific sacrifices that only an animal can do for us, that a grain offering cannot do.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, we'll get to those, like the sin, the guilt offerings especially, and the, and the burnt offering.
Seth: And this helps me to think about, like, okay, if the central concern here is life-
David: Right
Seth: ... and s- a lot of the other purity laws have to do with, like, bodily fluids, all this kinda stuff, and those are, I think we'll talk about how those are connected with death.
David: Yeah, unclean things are connected with death.
Seth: And like-
David: Clean things are connected with life
Seth: ... sometimes that can be really confusing about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, well, why is that bodily fluid-
David: Right
Seth: ... bad? This is what I-
David: Which we'll get there
Seth: ... we'll get there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like, so it's all connected actually.
David: Yes.
Seth: What we're do- what we're after is the preservation of life-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and a life for a life.
David: Yeah, and I think we can see that, um, i- in, in, uh, 'cause what happens when we draw near to God and we are unprotected, you know? 'Cause we're, we're gonna, we're gonna come in, uh... It's, like, where is it? Verse four.
Seth: Right.
David: Four verses into Leviticus, we're gonna get this word atonement.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which has this, this idea, this v- this verbal idea of covering, covering us up.
Seth: Well-
David: And, like, we'll, we'll t- we'll unpack that word here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in just a second, but I wanna stay on, on the animal thing, that it's like we need some kind of covering in order to enter into God's presence. And so we need this representative-
Seth: Okay, that-
David: ... life blood
Seth: ... that helps me answer this.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, we said, like, why God's presence.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's good. We want it.
David: Right.
Seth: We should be there. It's, it's where life is found. The only way to enter into God's life is to have the death in us taken and placed on an animal-
David: Right
Seth: ... and its life given to us.
David: Yes.
Seth: That... So then wh- but why is death what happens when we draw near to God's life?
David: Mm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, why do we... Why is there this... [laughs] Why is it dangerous-
David: Right
Seth: ... to be near to God?
David: Yeah. Well, um, so first, I think we should answer that question with, um, the beginning of the Bible, that what was the, what did God promise Adam and Eve would happen to them if they sinned and remained in the garden?
Seth: They would-
David: They would die.
Seth: They would die.
David: Yeah. And so there is this idea that, like, a sinful person-
Seth: Right
David: ... cannot be in God's presence and live, and we're told that at the end of Exodus as well. Like, "God, let me see your glory. Let me look at your face."
Seth: Right.
David: And God says, "You cannot see my face, 'cause if you do, you'll die." And then he says, "God, come down and, and be among the people and lead us into the promised land," at the end of Exodus, and God says, "I can't because you're hard-hearted, and if I come down, everyone will die."
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, like, we're seeing again and again and again in the Bible, uh, so far up in Genesis and Ex- and Exodus, we're shown that when unholy people come near a holy God, there's death. And so I think we need to talk about this concept of holiness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order to understand this life, death-
Seth: Right
David: ... picture.
Seth: It's 'cause it's not... 'Cause God's holiness isn't bad.
David: It's so good.
Seth: 'Cause-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and that's what, that's the thing that's wh- like, if you come into, come to my presence, you'll die.
David: Right.
Seth: That feels really negative.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But I think I th- I've heard this version of it, and I feel like this is really helpful, at least for me. It's, like, how the sun-
David: Right
Seth: ... it's like holiness, what does holiness mean? Holiness means set apart or unique or, um, separate from, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, separate from. And so just like the sun is unique and separate from the rest of the planetary sy- things in our solar system, it is unique in power.
David: Yep.
Seth: It is separate from all others in its ferocity and feroci- like, ferocity?
David: Ferocity.
Seth: Ferocity and ferocity.
David: They're, you know.
Seth: But, like-
David: Potato, potato
Seth: ... potato, potato. [laughs] It's like it's unique in our solar system by its power.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's what gives life on Earth. It, the holiness of the-
David: Right
Seth: ... sun is what gives us life on Earth.
David: Yes.
Seth: But if earthly things come near to the sun, they'll get burned up immediately.
David: That's right. Not because the sun is bad.
Seth: But because it's so powerful and good.
David: Right. Right, and because we don't have the proper covering, you know, the, the vessel.
Seth: We don't have a spaceship.
David: The spaceship.
Seth: We don't have the technology. [laughs]
David: To come, we don't have the technology to, to go near the sun.
Seth: The $6 million man.
David: But seriously, it's like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... it's like that's a really good picture because, um, okay, so if we wanted to go near the sun, what would we need? We'd need some kind of crazy vessel, right, the details of which could be written down. The schematics for this ship could be written down and explained-
Seth: Right
David: ... and down to the very nuts and bolts.
Seth: Complex math to get us-
David: That's right
Seth: ... out of our or-
David: That's right
Seth: ... our orbit.
David: And so, like, what we see in Leviticus is the schematics-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for the spaceship we need [laughs] to come into God's presence.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right?
Seth: So it's how do we live next to the powerful sun?
David: Right. And it, and I think, you know, w- I don't know if that's where you got it, but if you guys are, uh, still kinda, like, scratching your head on the idea of holiness, we'll put in the description to this video a link to our friends at The Bible Project.
Seth: Yes.
David: They did-
Seth: Their video is awesome
David: ... they did a video on holiness that's fantastic, and so we'll link to that if you're still kinda, like, scratching your head. It's really helpful. [gentle music]
Seth: So Leviticus, then, is the blueprints of how-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we draw near the sun, the schematics for the spaceship-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to be near God, in God's presence.
David: Right, which I really like that. I really like that. That's helpful.
Seth: Because it would be really weird and boring to actually read that textbook.
David: Oh, it would be so-
Seth: Right
David: ... right, yes.
Seth: It's like if you were to go to read, like, here's how you get to the sun.
David: Yep.
Seth: And if you were just a non-expert-
David: Right
Seth: ... you would come to this book and be like, "This is unintelligible."
David: Yes.
Seth: "Why am I even reading this?"
David: Uh-huh. But if you were the astronaut-... or the, or the builder of the spaceship, if you were involved in this project and it was your life's passion to visit the sun, you would read every line-
Seth: And be-
David: Just, and be enthralled.
Seth: Right.
David: Be like, "Oh, I never would've thought of that kind of metal alloy." [laughs]
Seth: And the problem for a lot of us is that we don't really see ourselves as astronauts.
David: Right.
Seth: We don't see ourselves as angling for God's presence and wanting to be with him all the time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So this book doesn't feel like it applies to us because we don't really see God's holiness as something that we can't have access to. Does that make sense?
David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, we don't see it, we see as something that either we assume we already have and we don't need more of, or pridefully we say, like, yeah, that's pride, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we, we don't need God's presence.
David: Right.
Seth: We're enough on our own.
David: Which is really funny. It's like we, especially we as Christians or, you know, New Testament folk-
Seth: Right
David: ... that we assume that our, that this problem is taken care of, that this, this old system's dead and it's done, 'cause Jesus said it was.
Seth: Right. Jesus is our spaceship.
David: That Jesus is our spaceship.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I don't need to know about Leviticus.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Like, it's like do- it was already built. Like, NASA's already invented the technology. Why would I read a textbook about it that's 2,000 years old?
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, you know, it, it doesn't work. Like, this is the failed model.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Right? This is the model that, that made it to the moon, but not to the sun. Jesus made it to the sun, why would I go read about the moon one? And it's because all the technology that got us to the sun is here in the craft that made it to the moon. [laughs] And so we can-
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: ... understand. Because the, the, the, the inner workings of how Jesus's death saves us is not really over-explained in the New Testament. Like, how blood saves us and lets us enter into God's presence-
Seth: Right
David: ... is just not really discussed. Why?
Seth: It assumes-
David: And people, and people ask that, and I, oh, this, okay, I gotta talk about this.
Seth: Okay. Okay, okay.
David: Because so many people talk about this idea that like, man, if, if, if Jesus's blood and his death were really that important, the New Testament would spend more time talking about how it works. And it's just not, it, it's mentioned, but it's kind of like-
Seth: Right, right, right, right
David: ... just like really quick comments where it's like, "He's our atonement. He's our propitiation." You know, "His shed, by the shed blood of the cross," and like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "He, he triumphed over it by the cross, and the iniquity of our sins was put on him," and that's it. We just get these little lines, and it's not, the mathematics of it aren't, aren't-
Seth: Explained
David: ... aren't explained. Why? Well, it's because they already had the textbook written.
Seth: Right.
David: It's Leviticus.
Seth: They assu- the a- Paul-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the New Testament writers assumed-
David: That you know this book
Seth: ... either you're a Jew and-
David: Right
Seth: ... you grew up reading this Bible or, or this text-
David: Right
Seth: ... or you live in the ancient world where sacrifice is everything.
David: Well, maybe.
Seth: Right?
David: Maybe that one. I'm gonna put a maybe on that one.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because, because sacrifice in Leviticus is so different, miles and miles and miles away different from every other sacrificial system in the ancient Near East.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes. And so I'd put an asterisk next to it. I would say, I would say if you were invited into this community, what, what did you do every, every time you came and fellowshipped with your brothers and sisters in Christ, they would open up the Old Testament and read it.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Along with some of the, maybe Paul's letters and something. And so they would, they would learn about how Jesus's death saved them by reading Leviticus.
Seth: Right.
David: Not by understanding their own sacrificial systems.
Seth: Okay then. Let's, let's stop there then. So how is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the Bible's vision of s- the sacrificial system-
David: Right
Seth: ... different from other ancient sacrificial systems?
David: Yes.
Seth: And maybe even the sacrificial system around in Jesus' day. I know one already that's different is the specificity-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of h- of these commands. I know if you go to any major world religion that continues to require sacrifice, even if it's just like a bunch of fruit at, like that's [laughs] whenever I go to the Asian market at our, yeah.
David: Oh, yeah?
Seth: At our, at, at downtown-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... here, Super Cao Nguyen, there's, there's a little idol and there's always like three tangerines or like some oranges or man, uh-
David: Oh
Seth: ... you know, things. There's always an, an offering right there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's always a sacrifice. So even if you're not offering, um-
David: Animals
Seth: ... animals.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Most religions of the world that still require sacrifices don't have their ver- version of the Book of Leviticus.
David: Right.
Seth: You never know what the gods want. You're offering in hopes-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that the gods won't dislike your sacrifice.
David: Right. That is, that, it's, so that's one of the big main differences-
Seth: Right
David: ... is that Leviticus, we need to read it as grace, because God has revealed to us how we can be in his presence, how we can be saved from our sins-
Seth: Right
David: ... which is something we'll unpack later. And so, um-
Seth: Here's how you do it-
David: Yep
Seth: ... line by line. You don't have to worry.
David: That's right.
Seth: You don't have to be fretting that you always have, be offering more and more and more and greater and greater and greater-
David: Yep
Seth: ... sacrifices to make sure that I like you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Here's exactly what I expect of you. And I think that helps me to understand why people sacrificed humans.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Because, uh, there, do you know, have you read Madeleine L'Engle's, uh, Wrinkle in Time?
David: Oh, yes, yeah.
Seth: She, so there's like, she wrote like six of them.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And the first three are like canon.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: The next ones are like a little weird.
David: Okay.
Seth: But one of the, I think it's the fourth or the fifth one, they mess with this idea of human sacrifice.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the false visions of human sacrifice versh- versus the Bible, the scripture's understanding of human-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... sacrifice, and it's that you never know what the gods will respond to.
David: That's right.
Seth: So the bigger and the better the sacrifice-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the more likely the gods will act in your favor.
David: Yep.
Seth: So it might work-
David: It might work
Seth: ... if you kill a, a son or a daughter.
David: You might finally get rain.
Seth: You might finally get what you want-
David: Yep
Seth: ... if you offer a sacrifice big enough.
David: Right. And, and both, um, Egypt, where they came from, and the Babylonians that surrounded them all practiced human and child sacrifice.
Seth: Right, because you don't know.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so what's the most valuable thing that they can think of?
David: Yep.
Seth: Another human being.
David: Another human being. Life for life.
Seth: Right.
David: Yep. And, and so that, that's one of the big main differences is that God has revealed what he requires. It's really important for us to understand Leviticus as grace, that, um, God is providing us a way for our sins to be atoned for.
Seth: Okay, so-
David: The second big thing, though-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is, um, what the, like, where the sacrifice goes and what it's for.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, um, in every other sacrificial system, the reason why the gods are sacrificed to is to feed them.
Seth: Oh.
David: They're hungry.
Seth: Right. They don't-They, they are dependent-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... on the worship of people to continue to survive.
David: That's right.
Seth: If you don't offer a cow, they don't eat meat that day.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, um, and so they, and so yeah, they, maybe they were hungry for human flesh, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... in, in human sacrifice. Maybe they're hungry for tangerines, you know? [laughs] Like maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're hungry for this. And so-
Seth: And what that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... does too is that elevates the human's role-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in the, in the religious sphere.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, there's a symbiotic relationship between gods and humans.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, humans provide the gods a service, and the gods return the favor. And you would think that, well, Leviticus is humbling-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the sense that it says it's not about you.
David: No.
Seth: You can't, God doesn't need anything.
David: No.
Seth: The sacrifice-
David: You need, you need the sacrifices. God does not.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, and I think we do that today, too. It's like, here's, let me give, let me give God something in-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... return. Let me, like, I don't want God to just save me by grace.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: Let me, like, if I can earn it, I would feel better about it.
David: Right.
Seth: If I can do enough good deeds, then I can be saved.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But at the end of the day, what does that do? That puts you in the same position of the ancient Near Eastern religions that said, "Well, what God needs is for me to do enough good works before his plans could be enacted in the world."
David: That's right. How, like, how are these gods going to provide for us if they're hungry?
Seth: Right.
David: You know, they're gonna be too tired to get out of bed and bring rain or whatever, and, uh, and so they would feed them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but here we see that who eats the lion's share of the food in Leviticus?
Seth: The priests.
David: The priests.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not God, the priests.
Seth: [laughs] Oh, I always thought about this, 'cause they bring, like, food and-
David: Yep
Seth: ... bread. Like, do they, like, know the guys who make the really good meat?
David: Oh, they're like, "Oh, yes, Sally's here today."
Seth: Finally. She makes the best bread.
David: Oh. When she does her f- her pan-fried-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... grain offering, oh my gosh.
Seth: It's like, it's like they were described like, that sounds like pancakes. Like-
David: Yeah, it does
Seth: ... on a griddle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Oil, flour.
David: Oil, flour.
Seth: Then are you pancake-
David: You're eating pancakes. [laughs]
Seth: And then, like, with salt.
David: Yep.
Seth: So you can make-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... a loaf of bread really salty-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and terrible or not put enough salt, and it's-
David: It's, it's like awful
Seth: ... it's also bad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, they, they've gotta have their favorite, like-
David: Oh, that's really funny
Seth: ... [laughs] gotta have their favorite.
David: The baker would think of that, you, you baker.
Seth: I've, I, I dabble.
David: I dabble.
Seth: I dabble in my dough.
David: Yeah, you do.
Seth: Dabbling dough. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah. And so the go- and I think that the priests, it, there's two things happening here. O- one, we'll get into later, where, that the, that the priests aren't given a portion of the land with Israel. They are to be sustained by the sacrificial system, so that's one thing that's happening. The other thing that's happening is the priests are eating the food to be a direct, um, like... What's the word I'm looking for here? Like a opposition, to be in direct opposition with the rest of the sacrificial system. That, uh, a- and, and what we see in the opening of Leviticus in this burnt offering-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the burnt offering, a better word for it is a whole offering.
Seth: Right, 'cause-
David: That the whole thing is burnt up
Seth: ... like, nothing's left.
David: Right. And so we read that, and we're like, "Yeah, okay, I get that one," if you're-
Seth: Right
David: ... in that world.
Seth: Right.
David: But that's the only one that's like that. All the other offerings that have a point-
Seth: Right
David: ... whether it's for thanksgiving or free will or sin or guilt, the priests eat some of it, or you as the offering giver actually get to eat some of it.
Seth: Right.
David: That you actually get to have a party there in front of the tabernacle and feed your family. And so what Leviticus is showing us is that God does not need your food, right?
Seth: Right.
David: The sacrifice is not for him. The sacrifice is for you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that's why often, uh, the word atonement is saying, "So that he may be atoned for," the person bringing the offering, to bring atonement for him-
Seth: Okay
David: ... not to, not to placate God, but to atone for the sinner. Those are two different things, to give-
Seth: Okay
David: ... a covering for the sinner, not to calm down the angry deity.
Seth: A covering from what? Like what-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like, the, the, the life-giving power of God? Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... that, that, the sun in the sky.
David: The sun, that's right.
Seth: The sacrifice is the spaceship.
David: Right, so if we were-
Seth: Right
David: ... if we were to jump, uh, even backwards-
Seth: Okay
David: ... I think, into Exodus and the priestly garments, right?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: That's a perfect analogy for our spaceship. So the, the priestly garments, they are put on in such a particular way, and it says that if they're done in this particular way, then those pieces of clothing will bear the iniquity of the priest, right?
Seth: Okay.
David: So the, the iniquity that, that they have-
Seth: The sin, the-
David: The sin that they have-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, there's punishment for it, right?
Seth: Okay.
David: Because God is clean, right? If you wanna use clean and unclean, God is clean, and sin is unclean. And so if you wanna think of it like a car wash or something-
Seth: Right
David: ... and uncleanliness comes into the car wash, it gets washed off.
Seth: Right. Right, right, right, right.
David: And so, uh, but God is saying, like, "I'll put you in a clean suit, like a hazmat suit-
Seth: Right
David: ... and you can come in, and your iniquity i- is, is not going to be punished or cleaned up."
Seth: Okay.
David: You know, and you with it, [laughs] you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... 'cause that's all you are.
Seth: So you just added a word here, punishment.
David: Yes.
Seth: So let's, so what we, s- at this point, we've said, okay, God's holiness is like the sun.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's this unique, powerful, life-giving force, and the reason that we die when we come close to it is because life can have nothing to do with death.
David: Right.
Seth: In the same way that-
David: Light and dark
Seth: ... like, humans can't have anything to do with the sun because we'll get burned up.
David: Right.
Seth: And, like, darkness-
David: Yeah, it's like when you turn on a-
Seth: ... coming to the light
David: ... when you turn on a light, all the darkness goes away.
Seth: They can't exist in the same space.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But you just said, and those sound kind of passive, as in like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it happens by virtue of the nature of things.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But you just said something different. You said God has to punish sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... not just that sin's incompatible with God.
David: Right.
Seth: So is, is that what we're seeing here, too? It's like-
David: Yes, it's, but it's the same thing. It's, it's the same thing.
Seth: Okay.
David: So it's not, not that, and I don't, and I wouldn't call God's cleanliness passive or God's holiness-
Seth: Right
David: ... passive.
Seth: But when you sli- when you f- flip on a light switch-
David: Yeah, when you flip on a light switch, something's happening
Seth: ... that's, right, that's not a passive action.
David: Uh, when the sun is burning, it's, it's emitting energy, and it's-
Seth: Right
David: ... continually creating and pushing out energy. There's an activity happening by the nature of what the sun is. And so God, too, is always turned on in terms of holiness.
Seth: Right.
David: He's always light. He's always good. And so whenever that uncleanliness or that sin comes near God, um, he cleans it upLike, and he-
Seth: Right
David: ... he judges it because if he didn't, like he, he would cease- he'd have to suspend part of his son-ness.
Seth: Right.
David: S- part of his light, and that can't happen. Darkness cannot exist within light, not even-
Seth: Right
David: ... to create a little pocket provision for it. And so that's why you need these hazmat suits-
Seth: Right
David: ... these spaceships, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: To, to be able to go into this place because then you are like light. You are like the sun. You've been made like God, and so you can be with God. [gentle music]
Seth: Okay, that's helpful.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's actually really helpful, I think, because what we're saying then is if God is holy and if he's light-
David: Yep
Seth: ... death and darkness just can't exist by virtue of them being totally different things. But if d- you knowing that you're dark, if you knowing that you have death inside you want to approach the light, there is a way that you can bring light onto yourself. You can bring life onto yourself, and it's by killing an animal and taking, from its death, taking its life onto you.
David: Right. And what you've just described there is atonement, is this idea of, um, taking someone's life onto you or s- somehow paying for your death or being covered over. There's so many different ways to translate that word.
Seth: I think my least favorite is at-one-ment.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Like, I've heard that it's like atonement means you're made at one.
David: Right.
Seth: And I was like, "I still have no idea what [laughs] that means."
David: Yeah. It, it actually could be helpful, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... as long as you don't actually think it's the definition 'cause-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's not how language works. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: But, um, it was like I was at-
Seth: These words sound like this word. [laughs]
David: I was at a, I was at a French restaurant and, um, we were sitting next to a very hick family-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who I don't think has ever been to a French restaurant before, and they-
Seth: You don't know
David: ... and, uh-
Seth: Maybe they love French food
David: ... for some reason, they brought the bre-
Seth: Cajun
David: ... their bread out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They brought their bread out in bags.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so they hand it to the people. It's like these, in these, like, paper bags, these long white paper bags, hand it to the, the, the guy, the head of the table, and he opens it up and pulls it out. He goes, "Oh, that's why they call it a baguette-"
Seth: [laughs]
David: "... 'cause it comes in a bag." So that's not what we mean [laughs] with at-one-ment.
Seth: [laughs] Oh.
David: So that's not this joke. This actually happened. [laughs] This is a real story.
Seth: The bag, the at-one-ment-
David: Right
Seth: ... is the theological version of the-
David: A baguette
Seth: ... hick family saying, "baguette." Got it.
David: But in a sense, it is helpful because atonement, what atonement does is it makes us like God because it makes us like light.
Seth: Right.
David: It makes us clean like God. It makes us holy like God. It makes us pure like God, and so really what we're talking about is not necessarily a vessel that gets, you know, berated and battered and-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... like, takes all the atmospheric blunt of the sun's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whatever. I don't know how astronomy works. But, uh-
Seth: Or gravity apparently. [laughs]
David: Yeah. It's more that... Yeah. It's more, it's more that, um, we're made like the sun, that-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, what could dwell alongside the sun? Uh, I don't know, like the sun.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, you know, if you were like it. And so at-one-ment makes us one with God. It makes us like him.
Seth: Got it.
David: And so that's why people have used that. Um, uh, I still don't love it. [laughs]
Seth: No, it, that, that, that explanation is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... more helpful than the things that I've heard-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the past.
David: And so, um, you're covered up. That's the idea here. And, and even in, as we, of we've, uh, back in Exodus, as we look at all the different pieces of the tabernacle, there is a covering over the mercy seat where God comes and sits, and that, that mercy seat cover is-
Seth: The, like, the lid
David: ... the lid.
Seth: The lid.
David: Over the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Ark of the Covenant-
Seth: Right
David: ... where God would come-
Seth: Where the-
David: ... his throne.
Seth: Where the angels are touching-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Nazi melts the face.
David: In the, yeah, in the-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Seth: Yeah, got it.
David: Yep, all these things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Biblically true. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Uh, if a Nazi comes into the presence of God, he melts.
David: He melts.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: That's, that's the Book of Leviticus.
Seth: That's the Book of Leviticus.
David: Okay. Well, that's all for our show today. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, and so that is, that, that language is kinda being riffed off of here in this idea of atonement. There's this lid covering that covers us, that we actually get to go-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and be in the presence of God 'cause we're covered by the presence of God.
Seth: Right.
David: We're one with the presence of God.
Seth: And the reason there's angels on top of it is because there was angels guarding the presence of God in the-
David: Guarding
Seth: ... Garden of Eden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... after Adam and Eve-
David: Right
Seth: ... were let out.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so atonement then-
Seth: It's so fascinating how, like-
David: ... there's so much
Seth: ... I was reading a little bit ahead.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So this is spoiler alert.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: But in [laughs] chapter seven, one of the offerings, the priest is allowed to keep the skin of the animal.
David: Yes, in, in the whole offering.
Seth: In the whole offering, yeah.
David: In the burnt offering, yeah.
Seth: So he's allowed to keep the skin of the o- animal, which would be, uh, which, like, it's leather, so obviously that's valuable.
David: Very valuable.
Seth: But it's, it's also another picture of the-
David: Of-
Seth: ... Garden of Eden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... where God gives Adam and Eve the skin-
David: Right
Seth: ... of these animals to protect them and to clothe them-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and to cover them.
David: It's pretty cool.
Seth: I'm like, oh my gosh.
David: Yep. It's pretty cool.
Seth: It's really beautiful. [laughs]
David: So let's see here. So we've talked about, um, kind of comparing the sacrifices to others in the day that, you know, they're not feeding God-
Seth: Right
David: ... or trying to guess at what he's like. They have details, um, about what God wants from them, and they, they need the sacrifice for themselves, not for the god. And the reason is not to earn some kind of blessing from God, but to just be able to be near God, which is a blessing in itself. So we've talked about that. We've talked a little bit about atonement, which I'm sure we'll touch on as we keep going throughout this.
Seth: The whole book is about atonement.
David: Yeah. So-
Seth: There's also a day called-
David: A day of atonement
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yom Kippur, yeah. Yeah. Kipper.
Seth: Yom Kipper.
David: Yom Kipper. [laughs]
Seth: Yom Kippers.
David: That's what the baguette guy, that's how-
Seth: Oh
David: ... he would say that. Yeah. And, uh, and so man, we've talked about a lot.
Seth: So if we're... So then let's just say-
David: Yep
Seth: ... I'm understanding better the concepts of sacrifice and atonement and, um, holiness, and I'm even seeing, like, how this points us to Jesus and how it g- let's just, but let's just make it explicit. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... how does the sacrificial system and its ability to atone for you and make you one with the God of holiness and uniqueness and power, how does that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... how do we see that in Jesus?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, how is Jesus a sacrifice?
David: Well, okay, so first off, let's talk about it. Let's try to go as top-down as we can. So on the whole, we've talked about, um, like, the Book of Leviticus being revealed to us as a, an act of grace-
Seth: Right
David: ... that God is showing us what we need to do to be with him. So Jesus was revealed to us, but not in words. He's the Word made flesh, right? So he is-
Seth: Right
David: ... now with us, and he talked about his death. You know, he said that he's lay, lay his life down as a ransom for many. He, he kind of talked us through what he was gonna do [laughs] and then-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and then acted outThe, the book of Leviticus on the cross, right? And so we have this-
Seth: And when you say acted out-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like he f- he-
David: Became
Seth: ... became the sacrifice
David: The sacrifices
Seth: He became the whole sacrifice.
David: Right.
Seth: He became the grain offering. Like, is that what you're saying? Like-
David: That is what I'm saying
Seth: ... each of the sacrifices-
David: Yep. Yep
Seth: ... he becomes-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in some sense.
David: And I wanna talk about those individually as we come to them-
Seth: Right
David: ... in, in later episodes. Um, but what we need to see here is that we don't have to guess whether or not a final sacrifice has been made for us, because we see it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It's been revealed to us.
Seth: If the book of Leviticus was already good news because we didn't have to wonder if the gods were capricious-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we knew exactly what God expected, the gospel is even better news because not only do we know precisely what God requires, we also know that God has already rec- provided it-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is the, the cool thing, the great... [laughs] I mean, I think s- some of the coolest news about, um, the good news, and, and we're looking at Leviticus, is when you read this it just feels so overwhelmingly repetitive and monotonous. And it's supposed to, because you're supposed to get this feeling of, man, they just had to keep bringing these sacrifices. And like-
Seth: Right
David: ... we'll read, I think it's in chapter six, that the h- or, or maybe seven, that the hearth is always to be burning day and night. That the-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... like the, the, the kindling of the fire-
Seth: The fire
David: ... where you would put the burnt offering on the altar outside the tabernacle, that it was always supposed to be on. Never let that sucker die. Why? Because we always need some kind of mediation, some kind of-
Seth: Right
David: ... sacrifice, some kind of atonement. And I love that in Jesus he said, "It's finished," and it's done.
Seth: Right.
David: And he sits down at the right hand of the Father. Because i- if you go through all the tabernacle and you look at all the furniture in it, there's one thing that's not described in the whole sucker.
Seth: A chair. [laughs]
David: A freaking chair. There's no chairs because, as Hebrews will tell us, the priests have to-
Seth: 'Cause the fire's burning
David: ... keep standing.
Seth: Right.
David: They have to keep working. There's no rest in this kind of sacrificial system. It is grace, but it is one, it's a grace that has to constantly be-
Seth: Renewed
David: ... um, renewed. Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: But in Jesus we're told in 1 John that his blood continually cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
Seth: And he sits down.
David: He sits down at the right hand-
Seth: He sits-
David: ... of the Father, and it's finished. So from a, I think from, like, a broad perspective, that's some of the things that we should look at that, you know... And, and you can read Leviticus, if we're talking, m-, about this as an introduction, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... you can read Leviticus in multiple different ways to see the gospel. One is through the details.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, man, I need a whole offering. Well, why? Well, we'll talk about that.
Seth: Right.
David: And well, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so you can look at the details in that way, and then you can also look at it... So that's kind of from a positive way.
Seth: Right.
David: You can also look at it from a negative way. Like, man, I really am glad I don't have to do these-
Seth: Right
David: ... kinds of sacrifices anymore.
Seth: Thank God for Jesus.
David: Thank God for Jesus.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: But then there's also... So that's kinda like the I'm glad I don't have to go through the mechanics of this kind-
Seth: Right
David: ... of sacrifice anymore, but then there's also the idea of the inner sacrifices. And you, we've kinda talked about this in a way-
Seth: Right
David: ... where, like, the, our, our good works that we put on the altar or our conscience or all these other things-
Seth: Right
David: ... our guilt is, is all done away with-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the final sacrifice of Jesus.
Seth: We can think about, like, the example of Hitler, not Hitler, but the Nazi opening up the box.
David: Oh, right, in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Seth: And, and, like, we say like, okay, good pe- so the, the, the common good news of our day-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell.
David: Right.
Seth: L- not everybody believes in heaven and hell.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, good people should go to heaven.
David: Right.
Seth: Bad people shouldn't.
David: Yeah, it's like The Good Place on NBC.
Seth: Right, yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is awesome.
David: It's a great show.
Seth: I really-
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's fascinating.
David: But it's like, it, it, it gives you a perfect view of w- how people think about if there was an eternity-
Seth: Right
David: ... what it should look like.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: And what the Book of Leviticus is saying is that actually, um, nobody's good.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's better news.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because if good people went to heaven and bad people didn't, eventually you would find that you could never know if you've done enough, enough good works.
David: Yep.
Seth: What the standard of good, just like the gods of the ancient day, are always changing, they're always moving around, and you never quite know if you are woke enough-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... if you're progressive enough-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you're good enough, if you're socially aware enough, if you're anti-racist enough.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You can never know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you're living up to the capricious gods enough.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the good news of Levit- Leviticus is, says that no, we know exactly how we can be good, and it's n- not by thinking that all good people go to heaven.
David: Right.
Seth: It's by recognizing that actually nobody is good apart from atonement.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, being made one with the good.
David: Yes.
Seth: And one of the things that Jesus... And so this is, I think this is helping redeem for me Bible passages that everybody-
David: Mm
Seth: ... talks about and says, "Oh, yeah, Jesus is our atoning sacrifice."
David: Right.
Seth: And like, what does that mean? Like, why is that helpful to me in understanding what Jesus does? He makes us one with the good life of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: He-
David: He, he does. He makes us like God, and that's, and, like, that's, that's the good news, is that he makes-
Seth: Yes
David: ... us like God. He makes us holy like God, unblemished like God. He m- a- and, like, when we see him, 1 John 3:2 says that we'll become like him. So, like, w- how will we actually enter into God's presence, you know, in-
Seth: Right
David: ... the new heavens and the new earth? Beca- because we will see him and we'll be made like him.
Seth: Right.
David: The Son will live with the Son.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's, that's how it will work.
Seth: And unlike the Levitical system, the Book of Leviticus-
David: Yep
Seth: ... all the sacrifices were outside of you.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the at-one-ment-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the becoming one really was external to you. It was literally like a spaceship. It surrounded you-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for a period of time.
David: Right.
Seth: But in Jesus, when he makes us one with the God of life-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he lives inside of us.
David: Right.
Seth: His spirit dwells in us, and we become new beings.
David: Yes.
Seth: New creations, one with God in his presence from the inside out.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: The tabernacle's no longer something we have to go to and perform a series of rituals in order to enter into God's presence, and even then it was just the priest who could do so.
Seth: Right.
David: Now we have become the tabernacle, and God comes and dwells in us.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's the gospel, is that the, the, God's presence is not something we go to anymore. It's God's presence has come to us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And it, and as he comes to us, he makes us like him so he can continue to be with us, and then eventually we'll be with him forever because he'll make the whole world his tabernacle.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
David: So that's, so that's some good Leviticus good news.
Seth: It is. [laughs]
David: I like that.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So, um, man, this, I'm really excited to, to walk through this book. Um, I, I think we're gonna discover some really cool things. Hopefully it'll-
Seth: Yep
David: ... it'll help. Uh, I think it really helps us understand a large portion of our Bible, this, this book does.
Seth: It does.
David: It's really a key to-
Seth: Sacrifice-
David: Yep
Seth: ... atonement, holiness-
David: Yes
Seth: ... are themes that animate a lot of the conflict and tension-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Bible, and, and, and it helps us read our Old Testament better.
David: Yes.
Seth: I think that's one of the things that you and I, I have talked about off air, is how the more we study Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus-
David: Yep. Num- yeah
Seth: ... the b-
David: Or the Torah. Yeah.
Seth: The e-
David: The more I know my Torah
Seth: ... the easier it is to understand Galatians and Romans.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, I was surprised that I'd been memorizing some Romans.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, I was surprised at how much easier I got it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then when I try to explain it to somebody else, it's like, "Oh, yeah, so you, so you, that makes sense to you, right?" They're like, "I have no idea what you're saying." [laughs]
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: "I have no idea." I was like, "Oh, I think it's because I've just, I've been studying-"
David: The Torah
Seth: ... the Torah.
David: Yeah. It's really important to know our Torahs, because that's what the New Testament authors were steeped in.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's what the prophets were steeped in. It's what the psalmist was steeped in. It, you know, like-
Seth: Not that the rest of the, the Old Testament's unimportant.
David: No, no, not, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Seth: But Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were the heartbeat-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the people of Israel.
David: The foundation.
Seth: It's what, uh, kids would've memorized-
David: Right
Seth: ... in their, in their, uh, little schools-
David: Right
Seth: ... where they went to. You know, like, this is the heartbeat.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is, these are all the stories everybody would know.
David: Right.
Seth: Not everybody would know the stories about the kings, and they would forget about Nehu, Jehu-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... Mehu.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: You know, the guy, those guys. But they would all, they, none of them would've forgotten the story of the Exodus-
David: Right
Seth: ... or how God made the world-
David: Yep
Seth: ... or the Levitical system, because they would go there year after year after year. They would've forgot, have forgotten about Moses standing up and saying, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Those are the stories that form the heart of the Hebrew people, and you see that when you read the Hebrew people's letters to their first church.
David: Yep.
Seth: So anyway, I've been, I've been so blessed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by continuing to study these books, because it helps me read my New Testament better.
David: Yeah. So I hope this, you know, for, for everyone listening out there, I really hope this, this kind of gets you excited about the Book of Leviticus. I'm really excited about it. Um, we're gonna be releasing devotionals for every, uh, literary unit of Leviticus. I've already written them.
Seth: Well done.
David: But we'll release them, uh, pretty soon, along with, uh, a poetry introduction, obviously-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the Book of Leviticus, which I'm so excited about. It uses this motif-
Seth: You guys, you're gonna be playing with the light
David: ... light.
Seth: Light, yeah.
David: Light and dark. Yeah, that's, that's kind of the controlling metaphor we use, 'cause I find that really helpful. And so, um, that's gonna be coming out. Uh, you can obviously follow along with everything, um, if you, you know, follow @spokengospel on Facebook and Instagram, or @heyspokengospel on Twitter. You can find us on YouTube, youtube.com/spokengospel.
Seth: And send us emails.
David: Send us emails.
Seth: As we saw last week-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we will respond.
David: We will.
Seth: And we want to respond.
David: Yep.
Seth: So.
David: So info@spokengospel if you wanna reach out to us about any questions you have. But, um, we are, uh, w- you know, on, on our side, we're gonna take a little two-week break, actually.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because Seth-
Seth: Baby Gloria
David: ... Baby Gloria is coming, in how many days?
Seth: Five days.
David: Five days. Yeah.
Seth: Five days from recording.
David: That's right.
Seth: She'll already be here by the time this-
David: By the time this comes out.
Seth: But yeah.
David: Yeah. So we, we've kinda had a front load, and then we'll back load a little bit, because you're gonna go on a little paternity leave.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, uh, good luck with that. Three kids for you. That'll be-
Seth: It's crazy
David: ... insane. So have fun with that. But anyway, we're really excited to go through Leviticus with you all. Thank you so much for listening. Uh, we, we super appreciate you, and, uh, we hope to see you in Leviticus Chapter 1. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
