Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are gonna do our best to finish our conversation on the Book of Proverbs today.
Seth: Awesome.
David: Taking a look at it through a special lens, the cast of characters.
Seth: The lens of Pete, as you told me last time.
David: Uh, Pete is gonna show up, and I'm very excited for everyone to meet Pete. Uh, Pete's helped me a lot with the Book of Proverbs.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think he'll help you. Um, but so far on our journey, we've kind of looked at what is wisdom literature, why is it poetry, what are proverbs, and-
Seth: How do we read the Book of Proverbs?
David: Yeah, all that stuff, and then in the last episode, we looked at the Garden of Eden and the story that it tells about the quest for wisdom, and the knowledge of good and evil, and the two voices of the serpent, and the fear of the Lord, and how those manifest in Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all that. Great episode. Now, let's meet Pete.
Seth: Okay.
David: So let's look at the o-
Seth: Chapter and verse, please.
David: Chapter and verse.
Seth: Go.
David: I, I... Yep, you got it, no problem. We are going to go to chapter 1, verse
David: 4.
Seth: Okay.
David: So this is the first time we hear a title for the audience, the addressee-
Seth: Okay, yes
David: ... of the book. We're gonna hear him called son, but throughout the whole book, he's also going to be given this other title.
Seth: Okay.
David: And it is, uh, that the book is being written to give prudence to the simple-
Seth: Simple
David: ... knowledge and direction to the youth.
Seth: Okay.
David: This is, um, our character.
Seth: Okay.
David: And this is the one that you can kind of picture walking through the Book of Proverbs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is this simple, young man, and who is he? It is this picture of a person who is yet uninformed about what is right and wrong, what is good and evil. He had not yet been formed in the knowledge of wisdom or even the knowledge of folly fully, that he is still this malleable, um, impressionable person. I think you could, you could even think about Adam and Eve pre-fall, before they reached for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They didn't know right from wrong yet. They, they hadn't yet walked into the wisdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or the folly of God or the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so this word simple, uh, is the word, uh, pete in Hebrew.
Seth: Pete?
David: Pete.
Seth: Pete, okay.
David: Like, and we would gloss it P-E-T-E.
Seth: Okay.
David: So Pete, [chuckles] it's Pete. Pete the Simple. [chuckles] So that's our first character.
Seth: Okay, Pete, Pete the Simple.
David: It's Pete.
Seth: Uh, and simple just means malleable?
David: It means, um... Like, it means open, um, impressionable, um, gullible even.
Seth: Okay.
David: But young.
Seth: Young.
David: You don't know yet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You're simple. You, you haven't learned yet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so it's like, it- you can think of it like a raw ball of clay that's thrown on the wheel, and Proverbs-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is trying to put God's hands, the hands of a wise king-
Seth: Mm
David: ... on that unformed clay and form it into a wise structure.
Seth: Mm, okay, that's helpful. 'Cause I think, I think simpleton.
David: Yes. Yeah, you're-
Seth: It-
David: It's not dumb.
Seth: Yeah, or dumb. Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, it's not a simpleton. It's not somebody-
Seth: Unrefined
David: ... who can't un- who can't know.
Seth: But, but unrefined would be a closer-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, we're working on the nuance of the figure.
David: Yes.
Seth: Or I like the ball of clay. It's like, it's not just a simple shape.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, it is a simple shape.
David: It is a simple shape.
Seth: But the purpose of wisdom is to carve-
David: Yes
Seth: ... something intricate.
David: I think simple here, we could think about the word potential.
Seth: Potential.
David: That this, this, this, like, son... I think you and I, as fathers of sons, can resonate with that.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, we look at our son-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, like, I think I said this a few episodes ago, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I told my six-year-old today, "You need to treat others the way you wanna be treated." And it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it, like, broke his brain.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Whereas you and I are like, "Yeah, I've heard that 100 times."
Seth: Right.
David: Well, we're not like... We're not as... We don't have as much [chuckles] potential-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of unformedness as he has at six. He's still very malleable-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and still able to be shaped in ways-
Seth: It's-
David: ... because he's young-
Seth: Right
David: ... and malleable. He has potential.
Seth: Is there a character, another character in the Bible that's called simple?
David: Hmm.
Seth: That would give me, like, a c- like, another, a biblical word, a biblical character that would, would, uh, that fit this bill?
David: Well, I mean, I think, I, I do think of Adam and Eve-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as this kind of proto-simple-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... human, that they are formed and given this world, but need the wisdom of God to understand how to live within it.
Seth: Yeah, they fit the, the, the idea behind the word.
David: Yeah, they had all the potential in the world [chuckles] -
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... to be formed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, another one would be, uh, King David, um, praying to God at the end of his reign about his son, Solomon, who was about to take the throne.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he called out to God, asking him to, to lead him, and to guide him, to give him wisdom. Why? Because he was young. He's just a boy, and he does not yet know good from evil, and that, even that phrase, um, "before you know good from evil,"-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "before you know right from wrong"-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... is a Hebrew way of saying, "You're young."
Seth: Yeah, it's used all over the Bible.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so there's this connection between being young, and having malleability, and potential for godliness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or for folly, um, with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... knowing good and evil.
Seth: Yeah, and I think, I mean, uh, young or youth right there, that next word-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it's like I th- I think, like, that's how David's described when we're first introduced. So he's young, he's young and ruddy.
David: Sure.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's the old King James Version [chuckles] that I remember.
David: Young and ruddy.
Seth: And ruddy. [chuckles]
David: Yes.... and so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think we could think about the Book of Proverbs, like Pete goes on a journey. [chuckles]
Seth: Okay.
David: So Pete goes on a journey, and, uh, have you ever read Pilgrim's Progress?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's kind of like, like-
Seth: Okay
David: ... that's a helpful rubric to have.
Seth: Okay.
David: And now, don't go blow for blow on it here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but it's like an interesting metaphor to think about the Book of Proverbs this way. Because Pete's gonna go on this journey, just like Christian does-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Pilgrim's Progress, and then he meets allegorized versions-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of different virtues and vices.
Seth: That's right, yeah.
David: And he runs across them, and he doesn't know if they're good or bad right away. He has to watch them work and go, "Oh, they did that, and they fell into quicksand."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Hmm, I probably shouldn't do that."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you learn that that person who fell into quicksand is vice or whatever.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, and it's like, "Okay, I probably shouldn't be a man of vice, or else-
Seth: Mm
David: ... I'll end up in quicksand. Hmm!"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he, he runs into these characters and distills wisdom from watching both the good and the bad.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so that's what happens in the Book of Proverbs. Uh, the king takes his son, Pete, on a journey, uh... or even you could think of it as Pete's traveling journal.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he's like, he, he goes and he sees something, and he writes it down, and he's like, "You know what? I observed that a, a, a king who seeks counsel from others tends to avoid error, and kings who rush quickly into battle tend to ruin."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I'm gonna write that down." And it's-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... Pete's observations-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... as he's watching these different characters. And so, um, you can think of it like, uh, like, these, these tropes, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, like in Pilgrim's Progress-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, or like the ones we're about to meet in this cast of characters that Pete's gonna run into.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's kinda like-
Seth: It's always the comic relief in the, in the movie, right?
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there's always a straight man and-
David: Well, you always... You kind of, you kind of know what they're going to do based on-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who they are.
Seth: Right.
David: So it's like Wile E. Coyote.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I think you and I talked about this way back in the book of Judges or something.
Seth: Esther.
David: Esther. Was it Esther? Okay.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's just like you know that Wile E. Coyote is going to run to the cliff wall, get hit by the anvil, and not catch the Road Runner.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why? 'Cause he's Wile E. Coyote.
Seth: Right.
David: That's his whole thing. Um, and so but it also goes the other way, that sometimes you have to look at the action. Like, it doesn't say, "The sluggard does these things." It'll say, "Look at these actions. They fold their hands. They take it easy. They miss the harvest." Do you know who that's describing? And you might go, "Hmm, is that the man at ease, a man of peace, a man of trust?"
Seth: Uh.
David: No, it's the sluggard.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's-
Seth: Okay
David: ... he's Wile E. Coyote, [chuckles] like...
Seth: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
David: And so sometimes it goes the other way-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... where you, you're given their actions-
Seth: But not their title
David: ... but not their title until a little later-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and you have to... "Oh, that's a, that's what a sluggard does. Okay."
Seth: Okay, okay.
David: So let's, let's talk about Pete and his journey and who he meets on the way.
Seth: Yeah, okay.
David: So, uh, the f- well, the first person or two people, I kind of am combining them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is one of the most regularly talked about. It's the fool and the wicked.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, uh, o- oftentimes, so regularly, "The fool does this, the fool does that." So let me, let me read a few examples for you. Uh, Proverbs 1:7, "Fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Seth: Mm.
David: 12:15, "The way of fools seems right to them, but the wise listen to advice." 14:16, "The wise fear the Lord and shun evil, but a fool is hot-headed and yet feels secure." [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so as you unpack this fool, you learn that he is really quick to disregard wisdom. That's why he's called a fool, 'cause y-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you, if you accept wisdom, you're wise.
Seth: Right, right. Okay.
David: If you reject it, you're a fool to reject wisdom. He doesn't like correction, so he rejects correction.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he often as- acts recklessly and destructively. This is kinda similar, uh, to the wicked person. The wicked person, it, though, is more volitionally evil, so it's not just that they've rejected wisdom and then end up acting recklessly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, the wicked person almost knows more about what they're doing. They're applying the wisdom of wickedness, in a sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they are violent, deceitful, morally corrupt. Uh-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, so let's see here.
Seth: Try to think of, like, characters in, like-
David: Okay
Seth: ... modern film or books that I've read that, like, describe... Like, that fit those molds of people who are foolish and reckless, and then people who are, like, actively evil.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I'm ha- I'm try- I was like... And I was like, "Oh, yeah, those tropes do exist in films."
David: They do, the fool.
Seth: Uh, the fool, um-
David: And the villain.
Seth: And the villain. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's what you just described-
David: Totally
Seth: ... the fool and the villain.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And normally they're paired.
David: Yes.
Seth: The fool is the s- y- is Iago.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the villain-
David: The villain is Jafar
Seth: ... is Jafar.
David: That's right.
Seth: That's right, and it's like he's reckless, he g- runs off-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... he runs into walls, and then Jafar is maniacally trying-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to control the kingdom. Um-
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Great, so you meet these people. Um, a- and, and so then, uh, let's see here. Y- then there's the scoffer. Oh, no. [chuckles]
Seth: Kronk and Yzma? [laughing]
David: Kronk and Yzma.
Seth: [laughing]
David: Yes, the fool and the wicked, from Emperor's New Groove. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] Screw it!
David: For Halloween last year, I went as Kronk.
Seth: You went as Kronk?
David: I did. Big fan.
Seth: [chuckles]
David: Um, and, and he's got the voice of Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly on his shoulders. [laughing]
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Okay, that's too far. [laughing] Um, so this, then another character we meet is the scoffer, or maybe translated the mocker. The scoffer is, is the opposite of humility.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So the scoffer is, is arrogant and proud. Anytime you try to correct them, they push against you. They, they-
Seth: Mm
David: ... bring a lot of strife. They poison the relationships. They're in there toxic-
Seth: Mm
David: ... wherever they are-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 'cause they just, they will not submit or listen to anyone else.
Seth: Mm.
David: They scoff at any kind of advice, and they mock you when you try to tell them that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Hey, you could improve a little bit here," and they're just, they push back.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and then you also have the sluggard, is another person that Pete meets on his journey. Uh, and the sluggard is, is pretty obvious, he's, he's lazy.... and, um, ends up suffering the consequences of his own neglect and procrastination.
Seth: Andy Dwyer.
David: Andy Dwyer- [laughing]
Seth: [laughing]
David: ... the sluggard. Parks and Recreation reference, everyone. Um, and so, uh, this is somebody who he, um,
David: his field... He's supposed to be like Adam, he's supposed to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a king ruling his field, uh, working it and bringing forth fruit, but instead, he's letting it all go to brambles.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the world around the sluggard looks less like Eden and more like the wilderness-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause everything's just going to pot around him. And so these are the negative characters-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that you meet, and I think something that's fascinating, as we were looking at this, is when I read this before studying it this time, I always viewed these tropes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as warnings. Like, uh, "David, you are a sluggard if you do these things."
Seth: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: "David, you're a fool-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if you do these things."
Seth: Yes.
David: "David, you are wicked-
Seth: Yes
David: ... when you do these things."
Seth: Yes.
David: And they're these identity, scary identity markers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that I've kind of probably internalized-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a little too much sometimes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and that's not the function they're playing here.
Seth: Interesting.
David: They are, they are these characters that you meet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now, yes, are they warnings? Of course, they are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But what you're doing is he's giving you, um, a life experience. The sluggard does these things. Watch it. Watch.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Look at... There's the sluggard over there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Look at what he does, and then look at the ruin around him.
David: What would you like to do with that information?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: "Oh, I don't wanna be like that."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or, "I don't know. He just sits on his couch all day and plays Madden. That kinda looks awesome."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I wanna do that." Okay, you can, you can do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Here are the consequences.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What do you wanna do?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Wise choice? What-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: The- these people are there to give us examples of the consequences, the life and death consequences that come from different types of actions.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so then you meet the fool.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, some- some- someone comes to the fool with wisdom, and they Iago their way out of it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and they just don't care.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And they ignore it, and then they end up falling into a hole in the trying ground. And it's like, "Isn't that interesting? Look what happens when somebody doesn't listen to wisdom."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Do you wanna be that kind of man, son?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "No?" [laughs]
Seth: Right. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay, well, look at the wicked.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This wicked person is, is, is sitting and, and, and scheming to trap someone.
Seth: Frequently, they gain great power, but-
David: They end up falling into the trap they set for themselves.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Do you see the end of the wicked, my son?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Yeah, I do." Okay, now, that might have taken 30 years, 40 years-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for that event to play out, but I want you to know that's what happens to the wicked.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Okay." And, and, and he's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... introducing him to characters.
Seth: It's so funny how accurate Jafar is. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: It's like... He's like, he wants ultimate power, and so he asks to be a genie.
David: Yes.
Seth: And it traps him forever.
David: That's... That's right!
Seth: Right? [laughing]
David: Yes, that's right.
Seth: He falls into his own trap. [laughing]
David: It's like, it's perfect. [laughing]
Seth: It is actually perfect. I, I hate how perfect it is.
David: [laughing] You were gonna dismiss it, like, "Oh, yeah, it's so funny." So no, it's perfect.
Seth: No, that's, that's actually perfect.
David: [laughing]
Seth: And Yzma becomes a cat-
David: [laughing]
Seth: ... because of the potions-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that she kept in her own laboratory.
David: [laughing] Hoisted by your own petard every time.
Seth: Oh, gosh.
David: Everyone is Wile E. Coyote at the end of the day.
Seth: That's really funny.
David: So that, that's the idea here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: As, as you meet these people, they're supposed to be real-world examples.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Their, their understanding. Like, that's, that's, like, they are...
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, the fact that you see them is understanding and knowledge and instruction.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That person exists.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Look at their life. Look at the consequences. Now, wisdom is what are you gonna do with that information?
Seth: Mm-hmm, yeah.
David: And so that's the cast of characters in the negative.
Seth: Okay.
David: Then the- then you have positive characters, too, and this is not-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a full list of all the characters.
Seth: Okay.
David: We're just kind of highlighting some.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, a couple to highlight in the, uh, in the positive categories
David: are the wise-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is one, obviously. The wise person fears the Lord. He reveres God. He leans not on his own understanding but seeks the Lord's understanding. He seeks the wisdom of counselors. Uh, he lives his life according to wisdom. He's prudent, discerning, obedient.
Seth: Yoda.
David: He's... [laughing]
Seth: I don't know. Maybe.
David: Well, you know, he's not listening to the Lord. He's listening to the Force.
Seth: The Force.
David: But he is the mentor character-
Seth: Yes, that's right
David: ... the son goes to.
Seth: That's right, yeah, and who doesn't wanna live in Dagobah?
David: And everybody wants to live in Dag- Dagobah. [laughing]
Seth: Seems like a terrible place to live.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Look at the end of Yoda, my son.
David: He disappears.
Seth: He disappears.
David: Sleeping on a bed.
Seth: Yeah, he doesn't have a great life.
David: No.
Seth: Neither does... Anyway.
David: Yeah, but, but yeah.
Seth: But yeah.
David: It's this sage that you look to-
Seth: The sage, yeah
David: ... and you go, "Okay, this is somebody who has looked at the data in the world around them and been able to wisely piece together a good life."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and that's what a sage does.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you're able to look at them as a model. Obviously, the ultimate model of that is Jesus, right? He is the wise one we look to.
Seth: Right.
David: And whereas we look to the wicked characters that Pete meets in his journey-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and go, "Okay, I've learned what not to do. I have warnings and signs. Oh, I don't want that life."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Oh, gosh, that kinda scares me in this direction." Um, the wise give us the road to walk on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to pattern ourselves after. Um, and then you also have the righteous person, so this is someone who's bringing goodness into the world. They're bringing equity and justice and-
Seth: Right
David: ... right l- ordered relationships.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, they live with integrity. They love, uh, they love, they love proper m-
Seth: Mm
David: ... scales. You know? [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Like, God abhors bad scales.
Seth: Like-
David: This-
Seth: Yeah.
David: The righteous person loves it whenever you... A pound is a pound. [chuckles]
Seth: The good cop.
David: The good cop. [laughing]
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're all over it. [laughing]
Seth: I'm all... I'm trying my hard... Well, it's like, no, it's help... I mean, I'm understanding, like, oh, when I see that character in a movie, I understand his function.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? It's like-
David: That's right
Seth: ... he is the one who will do the right thing, no matter what it costs him.
David: He's Go- he's Gordon. He's, he's Commissioner Gordon.
Seth: He's Commissioner Gordon, that's right.
David: From Batman, yeah.
Seth: He's like, he, uh, he's, he will always follow the rules when everybody else is corrupt.
David: No matter what. That's right.
Seth: He is go- like, you know, that is a, he-
David: Yep, that's the righteous man.
Seth: That's like... That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He'll go to prison for something he didn't do because it's the right thing to do.
David: It's the right thing to do.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Okay. It's the righteous man.
Seth: He's the righteous man.
David: Yeah, and so, so anyway, the, this is like-... filling out the world-
Seth: Yeah. Mm.
David: -of the cast of characters here, and Pete is this malleable-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... impressionable little boy.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And his father's taking him on this grand tour of the world, and he's like, "Hey, son, come here. Watch this guy with me for a second. Look at what he's doing. He's sleeping through the harvest instead of getting out there and, and, um, uh, you know, filling up his barn. Uh, what do you think of that?" "Well, I don't know, Dad. Kinda looks like he's kicked his feet up. He's by the fire. He's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... having a nice... It kinda looks nice."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Okay, let's wait till winter and see what happens to this man."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Does he have any food to eat? No. What happened? This man is the sluggard."
Seth: Mm.
David: Right? And he's, like, teaching his son-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these-
Seth: Mm
David: ... lessons from how he's encountering the people around him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I just, I thi- I find that a fascinating-
Seth: That is fascinating
David: ... way to read the Book of Proverbs.
Seth: Yeah, well, the Pilgrim's Progress analogy is really good, too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like... And it was funny, I read it to my kids recently, and it's like they get it. It's like-
David: Wow
Seth: ... 'Oh, that's...' And they, like, they're drawing all these connections. They're like, "Oh, that means that this person is the devil," or, you know, something.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
Seth: You know, they're, they're figuring it out-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... uh, as they read it. Like, that's-
David: That's right
Seth: ... that's the way it works.
David: Yeah, and so it's... Yeah, so I don't know. What is... As you hear that as a way to read Proverbs, looking at, at all of this, um, how does that enhance or change the way that you read the book? I, I just think, for me, it was helpful almost to not feel the condemnation [chuckles]-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of being called the sluggard-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the wicked one and the fool for when I do-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... sluggard-ish things or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... evil things or foolish things.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause I do those things. We all do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm like, "Am I, am I just fated to be the sluggard?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, oh, no, not if you learn from that [chuckles] mistake-
Seth: Right
David: ... and look at it and go, "Oh, I can-
Seth: Mm
David: ... now gain wisdom from that experience."
Seth: Well, I'm just imagining, like, the little block of clay that you mentioned-
David: Yes
Seth: ... just being pushed up against these characters and, like, catching something of, of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of their shape. And as he's going on his little journey, the ball of clay takes on more, the more and more of a shape of a man, not just like a lump of clay, but, like, the shape of, like, a wise person.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's what I, I was kind of imagining as, as we walked through those characters. It also makes me, uh, you, you mentioned actually two audiences to the book. The first is the malleable young man, and then
Seth: let the wise hear and increase in learning.
David: Yeah, those who are wise increase.
Seth: And so I was like, "Okay, I'm probably not the youngest person in the world anymore."
David: You've been, you've been molded.
Seth: Uh, I've been molded, and I'm, like, hardened in places I probably shouldn't have been.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I guess my experience of the journey is the same-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but the hope is what for me?
David: Mm.
Seth: Not that I could be molded, but chipped away. Like...
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: How do I, like-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... how do I think about
Seth: as an older person coming to the wisdom of the sages?
David: Yeah. That's a really good question to think about, this molding that happens to Pete-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or to us as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... men entering middle age. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, what's happened to us so far?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Where are we? Are we the wise now that need to continue to increase in instruction?
Seth: Yeah.
David: What about somebody who comes to Proverbs for the first time at, in, at the age of 40-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... never knowing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the wise voice of the Lord, never fearing the Lord, but now they want to.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But these are, like, some interesting questions here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause there are two audiences-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, that he's talking to. There's this young man, Pete, the, the son, the prince. Uh, and then throughout the book, he, he tends to... He looks like he's almost growing up. Like, there's, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... this coming-of-age story that we've-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... seen some people trace on, uh, some commentators trace on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to this book. 'Cause then he, he gets talked to as a king.
Seth: Mm.
David: And then at the end, there's this wise woman that is there for him to marry-
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's, like, this beautiful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... fairy tale-
Seth: Interesting
David: ... coming-of-age story kind of thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Um, but I don't think we need to over-engineer either the linearity of that or the irrevocable nature of being molded. Um, and I, I guess I can't quite get this out of Proverbs. [chuckles]
Seth: Okay.
David: But it's just [chuckles] hard for me not to respond to this, for those listening who are new Christians who have been molded by things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... throughout their whole life, that their patterns and their wisdom is young, and they have a lot of hard-hearted places and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... reactions that are wicked and foolish, and they know it. And they're like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "What hope is there for me? Am I just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... now stuck because I ran into the sluggard too many times? [chuckles] Like, what's going on here?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's just like, man, there's this, like, this... We can be transformed-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... by the renewing of our mind. But I'm also thinking, like, later on, uh, in verse or in chapter 20-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, it actually talks about both of these audiences and talks about an inner cleansing for them-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which I find really fascinating. So chapter 20, verse 28 to 30. Um, so he starts talking about the king: "Steadfast love and faithfulness preserve the king, and by steadfast love, his throne is upheld." And then he talks about the young man: "The glory of the young man is their strength, but the splendor of old man is their gray hair." So there's, like, strength and honor for-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... both the young and the old, both for the malleable Pete and the established king. And then, um, verse 30: "Blows that wound-
Seth: Mm
David: ... cleanse away evil. Strokes make clean the innermost parts." That those hard, sinful, calloused places, whenever a wise blow comes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it can actually cleanse the evil that has been impressed upon us-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and that we've chosen, and that we can be made clean in our-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... innermost parts by the harsh stroke of a wise blow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like someone correcting you, and you go, "Did you know you're in sin right now?" [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Oh, I didn't."... [chuckles] and as long as you're not a mocker and a scoffer who says, "Don't tell me that"-
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: -that can clean you up, and, and-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, you're not fated to be-
Seth: The-
David: -this calloused king.
Seth: Right, yeah, 'cause when I think, it's like, I- I mean, I just read Pilgrim Progress with my kids. Like, watching them react to that, and like kind of discover the characters on their own, and figure out everything that you're describing... But when I read it, I'm like, "Oh, that's me."
David: Yeah.
Seth: I see myself in the characters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that, "Oh, I've, I've been in the Slough of Despond-
David: Yeah. [chuckles]
Seth: -I've spent a night in the, the, the, uh, of despair, uh, the Castle of Despair."
David: Yes.
Seth: You know, like, I've done- I've walked those paths just like Christian does, you know? And I think it's interesting, like, the hope here, even in the Book of Proverbs, is like, well, there... One, there are wounds that can chip away at the foolishness that we've, like, held onto. But the very next verse says, "The king's heart," so, like, the old man's heart, "is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and he turns it wherever he wills."
David: So good.
Seth: Like, oh, there is transformation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... available for the hardened-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and the old, uh, in the fear of the Lord.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: Uh, let me, let me-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... let me double-click on that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because I think I, this is how I really want to answer this question.
Seth: Okay.
David: And I think it's exactly what you just said, in the fear of the Lord. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: So there is an invitation that Proverbs has for us, and I think we can hear it here on the lips of Lady Wisdom in chapter 9, verse 4: "Whoever is simple," so anyone who wants to be Pete [chuckles] -
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "let him turn in here. To him who lacks sense, she says, 'Come, and eat my bread, and drink the wine that I have mixed. Leave your simple ways, and live and walk in the way of insight.'" There's only one way to hear the voice of wisdom. There's only one way-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to
David: receive the counsel of the wise and of the upright man-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and that's if you become Pete.
Seth: Mm.
David: If you allow yourself to be simple, if you lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... only then can you make your path straight. That, I think Proverbs is inviting us again, and again, and again to soften up the clay of our hearts and come to the potter's hands-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Proverbs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and let it mold us with wisdom. And again, go, "Oh, man, I have become wise in my own eyes again."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "God, make me soft and malleable-
Seth: Yeah.
David: - make my heart young again, and mold me."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Show me what's right and wrong again."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Chip it away, cleanse-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and remold, and let me be simple, let me be humble. Let me act as if I know nothing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and not lean on my own understanding, but come to the Lord again in fear and say, 'Show me what's true and good.'"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think it's that returning again and again to that humble-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... mindset.
Seth: Well, well, that's what Jesus says, "You have to become like little children."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's, that's the way of the kingdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: 'Cause-
David: 'Cause they're all talking like, "Okay, how do we become great? And let's figure this out." And it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "No, you need to not know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these things right now. [chuckles] You need to go back to where you're malleable and moldable again."
Seth: Yeah. The greatest of these is the least.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. Mm.
David: So I, I think that is an invitation that I've been rocked with in studying Proverbs, is every time I open this book, I'm invited to be like, "David, [chuckles] let your heart be simple. Let your heart be malleable, let your heart have potential, and let the wisdom of Yahweh mold you-
Seth: Mm
David: ... into the king that he's making you to be."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "A king that brings goodness, and life, and flourishing on the earth." Like, that's pretty cool.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Does that answer your question at all?
Seth: I mean, it begins to.
David: It begins to.
Seth: I mean, it's like, and it's like, if it's a journey-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that takes a while, I guess.
David: Yes.
Seth: You know?
David: There is, there is instruction and understanding-
Seth: Uh
David: ... but you must increase in wisdom. [laughing]
Seth: Uh, I had another question about, the... We listed a whole cast of characters, but you didn't mention Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly.
David: Yes.
Seth: Presumably, they are characters-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but even as you talked about the scoffer and-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the Li- Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly seem to function a little bit differently than the rest of them.
David: Yes, I, it's, I- that's why I intentionally put them in the last episode, because they do function differently.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, I, although I do wanna give one caveat.
Seth: Okay.
David: So I'm gonna say why they function differently-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then I'm gonna give a caveat. So, um, they are not necessarily people you bump into.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They are cosmic figures-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, representing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this call and allurement of wisdom, and this call and allurement of folly. And, uh, he's trying to show us the cosmic battle of the voice of Yahweh, and the fear you need to obey it, and the voice of the serpent, and how quickly we try to gain life through our own devices.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, however, I think especially for Lady Folly, and, like... Uh, well, let me, let me do both. Lady Wisdom, we do meet incarnate in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Proverbs 31.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we can see a wise woman-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we can learn from her.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So in a way, she can function-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the same way that all the other characters do.
Seth: And then you have that, then you have a wife, like a bad wife that shows up-
David: That's right
Seth: ... throughout the Proverbs, too.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, you have a foolish wife.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, and I would say for Lady Folly, she's also called the adulterer.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so this, and I, I think we've maybe all met, or heard of, or seen this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... these people, and they can be men or women.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But they are, they are people who, yeah, draw-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... spouses and, you know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... uh, married people away from their covenants-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and into the trap of their bed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and I have, I have witnessed firsthand-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that happening-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in people in my life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's a wicked thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I've seen it happen, I've seen what happened to the men and the women who go into the house of the adulterer.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it is giving me wisdom in my marriage-
Seth: Right
David: ... of not doing that. [chuckles]
Seth: Yes.
David: I have seen the house of the adulterer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I know I don't wanna walk in that house.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Just like I've seen the end of the sluggard-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I don't wanna live that way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Mm.
David: ... so yes and no.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They do operate in the same way,
Seth: but they're also these co- cosmic figures.
David: So a little different. They're doing more work.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: And they're, like, more active figures, call- interacting with the sun-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... in a way that the other characters are not.
David: Are more like, "Look over here, sun."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Here's a little vignette of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a sluggardly person.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, and, and so I guess the, another way just to refract the light of Christ through this is he is the ultimate character [chuckles] if we could say that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... um, that we look at and learn from, and we've said this in so many words elsewhere.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, you know, you learn- you, you see and learn from the sluggard. You see and learn from the scoffer.
Seth: Mm.
David: You see and learn from the righteous man. You see and learn from the wise. Jesus is the one-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the rabbi, that we disciple under and follow his way, and we pattern our life after him. Whatever he does, [chuckles] we learn from and say, "Oh, I want to do that kind of thing."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and that is what it means to follow wisdom. It is to-
Seth: Mm
David: ... follow Jesus and be clay in his hands.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And to again, and again, and again, day after day, come to his feet and say, "I don't know, Jesus, you know. Mold me and make me anew. Chip away what's hard, cleanse what's dirty, and build wisdom in me today anew."
Seth: Mm. It's good, man.
David: And he will, so...
Seth: Really good.
David: Proverbs.
Seth: Proverbs. We did it.
David: We did it. It was wonderful. I enjoyed that.
Seth: This was really f-
David: Yeah.
Seth: This was really great.
David: Well-
Seth: Thank you for leading us through it.
David: Oh, man, my pleasure. Thank you, too, to our friend Christine here for helping out in, um, all her study and partnership. We are so grateful for her, and we're grateful for all of you listening and in, in jour- journeying us, journeying with us on this pathway to wisdom. We pray God's blessing of wisdom in your life, and that his Holy Spirit might give you everything you need for life in
David: this world as you're trying to create Eden. So thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]