David: Hey, everyone. Just wanted to let you know that if you have little ones around that do not know about the birds and the bees yet, maybe listen to this episode with some headphones on, because we're talking [chuckles] about Song of Songs. Wanted to give you that heads-up. Let's dive in. [upbeat music]
Seth: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Spoken- [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yes! Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown. [laughs]
Seth: I was practicing this all morning, too. [laughing]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
Seth: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. My name is Seth, and today, David-
David: What's up?
Seth: ... is gonna be taking us through the Song of Songs-
David: Oh.
Seth: -or the Song of Solomon.
David: Yes.
Seth: How are you feeling?
David: I'm feeling trepidatious and joyful-
Seth: Mm.
David: -which maybe kinda just feels like how the woman felt in this song, [chuckles] maybe.
Seth: So normally on this podcast-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I come in very well-prepared-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and you come in very ignorant.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Today-
David: Thank you. [laughing]
Seth: Today, however-
David: Very ignorant.
Seth: Very ignorant. I put on-
David: Perhaps slightly less read than you'd been in, [chuckles] at the moment, but-
Seth: I will-
David: Excruciatingly ignorant is also an option for me
Seth: ... I will proudly wear a dunce hat today.
David: [chuckles]
Seth: I have not read Song of Songs or the Song of Solomon. Uh, so that's probably even my first question, why does it have two names?
David: Sure.
Seth: But, like, I haven't read this in years. It's one of the few books of the Bible that I've not ever opened up a commentary on before.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So, like, I am very much ignorant-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of what's going on here. So I'm just all ears.
David: Let me, let me start with a question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why is this not a book you've frequented regularly? As a- someone who loves the Bible, preaches the Bible, studies the Bible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why is this one that doesn't darken your door regularly?
Seth: Well, by virtue of the job that I have, [chuckles] I generally, like, get to read most books of the Bible and study them. And so, like, Hosea is... You know, that's, that's a more famous one, but, like, the weird minor prophets like Nahum and Obadiah, I've, like, had a chance, by virtue of my job, to go into them. You actually wrote the devos for this one.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: And the Song of Solomon, uh, introduction we-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we filmed was before I came on staff. So part, like, a part of my Biblical study has always been just-
David: Wrapped up in whatever we're producing at Spoken Gospel.
Seth: Right, and so these are artifacts before my time.
David: Maybe I'm trying to get at in your private devotion.
Seth: Ah.
David: And I'm guessing even before two or three years ago, whenever the last time you read it is, it's not a book you've spent a lot of time with.
Seth: No.
David: And it's pr- I think... I'm just trying to empathize with the audience here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's probably true for a lot of people. Why do you think this isn't a book you frequented regularly, and why one that maybe a lot of people who are listening to this are unfamiliar with?
Seth: I think, I mean, if I was just to, like, go off my gut, it's like, "Oh, let's go for the big hitters, uh, the Sermon on the Mount. Let's go for the Gospels. Let's go back to the Torah and read the Exodus story." And it's so short, and so even, even though I know this isn't true, there's probably a sense here of like, "Oh, if it's short, it probably doesn't have the import of some of the larger books or doesn't have the significance." And it's like, I know that's not true.
David: Right, right, right.
Seth: But, like, it's just something that-
David: There's a small little book of poetry-
Seth: Right
David: ... in my Bible, and I kind of ignore it.
Seth: Yeah, and like, when I do a Bible-in-the-read- year plan, which I haven't done in a couple years, 'cause I'm just reading more deeply-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... than, like, straight through, it's like, it's just, it's a day.
David: It passes by real fast.
Seth: It passes by real fast.
David: Yeah, that's fair.
Seth: And so it's just not been a place I've paused often-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or even, like, a Bible-in-a-year plan tells me to pause.
David: Right. Yeah, I think for me, it- 'cause I think it's one I just haven't spent a lot of time with either, and I think for me, it's, I don't know how to approach this book.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, it just, it either makes me blush-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Um, I don't know if I'm supposed to read this as a guide to my marriage or sexuality-
Seth: Uh
David: ... or things like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, or is it an- is it, is this a picture of me and Jesus? Which some people have argued. And I just, I get very confused very quickly-
Seth: Yeah, that's-
David: ... in a book like this.
Seth: That's fair. Like, I've kind of got, like, some, like, assumptions in my head about Song of Songs. Like, "Oh, it's a love song, and it's-
David: Right
Seth: ... kind of sexy?" Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... and that's k- and like, that's kind of, like, all I know about it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I'm like, "Oh, I don't know what to do with the breast-like tower," like, the, the few-
David: Right
Seth: ... the few-
David: Images that you might know of.
Seth: That... Yeah, uh, or like I quote to myself and my wife [chuckles] occasionally.
David: Yeah, and it's like, "That's in my Bible?"
Seth: Actually, I'm just remembering this now. I actually memorized part of Song of Songs-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and recited it to Erica when I proposed to her.
David: Oh!
Seth: I totally forgot about this.
David: That's special.
Seth: It is special.
David: That's pretty cool.
Seth: So yeah, it's been a long time. [chuckles]
David: All right.
Seth: It's been a long time.
David: Yeah. Well, let's start off with this.
Seth: Okay.
David: Let's get our heads in the right space, because the Song of Songs, which is what we're gonna call it... We'll talk about why here in a little bit. But the Song of Songs is a love song.
Seth: Okay.
David: And we'll also talk about that in a little bit. But to maybe demystify the idea of a love song a little bit-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, let's just talk about how we have a lot of love songs- [chuckles]
Seth: Yes
David: ... in our culture and in all cultures. Like, this is a very normal thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, um, I, I've looked up some of the top love songs of all time in our culture.
Seth: Okay.
David: And let's just look at some of the lyrics in them.
Seth: Okay.
David: So Bon Jovi's Always. This is one of the top songs of all time. Here's, here's a quote, "And I will love you, baby, always."
Seth: Mm.
David: "And I'll be there forever and a day, always."
Seth: Always.
David: Okay, Marvin Gaye, Let's Get It On.
Seth: Mm.
David: ... classic love song.
Seth: That's all you need to say. [laughs]
David: "There's nothing wrong with me loving you, baby, no, no, and giving yourself to me can never be wrong." So, like, l- look at just a few of those-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... real quickly. There's these pledges of everlasting love-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... that, that this lover will be there for this, his beloved, always.
Seth: But, like-
David: It is, is a-
Seth: Deep, monogamous, almost type
David: ... deep, monogamous Bon Jovi song.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then you've got this Marvin Gaye song, which is Let's Get It On, and it's ver- it's more sexualized, and it's this-
Seth: It's about the pleasure of-
David: ... "Giving, giving yourself to me can never be wrong."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's almost like the fact that this is so good or feels so good-
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
David: ... this act of sexuality, it couldn't be bad. It feels so good.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's making mor- morality claims about the act of sexual love.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and, and as we hear these things-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they train us about how to think about sex, how to think about relationships, how to think about marriage-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how to think about the other sex. Like, it, it, it trains our brains. This is what love songs do.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is they-
Seth: It tells us what to expect out of the relationships-
David: That's right
Seth: ... we find ourselves in.
David: Yeah. A- I'm reminded of, um, of a little story here. I, I was speaking at an event, and, um, a Bible translator, we were talking about poetry, 'cause poetry is, like, a huge part of her culture, and I had performed poetry that night, and she came up to me and gave me a big hug.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And she was like, "I'm so glad, like, America has a poet." And I was like, "Well, there's lots of us. [laughing] I'm not the only one."
Seth: [laughing]
David: But, but she was like, " 'Cause I just don't hear poetry in, in America that much."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and she was like, "And I just don't understand, without poetry, how do you know how to feel anything?"
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And I'm like, "Oh, that's intense."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Without poetry, how do we know how to feel? And so, like, love poetry, love songs-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... teach us how to feel and think about-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the, this important union between man and woman. And for a lot of us, the main way we've been trained-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is through this pop culture music or other love songs from our culture, and not from the greatest song ever written about a man and a woman being unified. And so-
Seth: So-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Can I ask a question about that?
David: Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: So, so the, the purpose of the Song of Songs, of Solomon's song-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is to teach us how to feel and experience love?
David: I don't know. I don't know if we're ready to say that yet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I think it's safe to say that love poetry-
Seth: Does that
David: ... does that-
Seth: And this-
David: ... as a genre
Seth: ... is a love song.
David: And this is a love song. And so, and, and so it is a love song, one.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then I think the other thing that's helpful here is this is... So this is the Song of Songs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is the greatest love song. Uh, the-
Seth: That's what that means, like-
David: That's what, that's what that means. So, like, Holy of Holies.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: It's the most holy place. King of Kings. It's the greatest king. This is-
Seth: It's the song above all songs.
David: This is the song above all songs.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, and it's of Solomon's, so it could... You could translate it Solomon's Song of Songs. So this could be the greatest song Solomon, uh, Solomon ever wrote.
Seth: Oh, that's the very first verse.
David: It's the very first verse.
Seth: The Song of Songs, which is Solomon's.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah, okay.
David: Um, but what most commentators think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that this is a, the greatest song, or maybe the greatest love song, in, in the Solomonic tradition. So that, not necessarily that this is written by King Solomon historically-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but that it was written in his style or his vein or, or in his tradition, this wisdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... tradition.
Seth: And is that distinction important to understanding what goes on in the song?
David: It is, mainly because of Solomon's storied past. [chuckles]
Seth: Right.
David: Solomon was famously, uh, the wisest king.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He prayed for wisdom, and God granted it to him, so he might discern good from evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so we have that in our head when we think about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Solomon. He knows good from evil. This should take us back-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to the Garden of Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and what broke our relationship with God. And Solomon was this king who would know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... good and evil and bring us back into the garden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he didn't, famously.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And instead of having some monogamous wife, he had 700 concubines.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Instead of blessing the nations, he made slaves and ended up looking more like Egypt than the Kingdom of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and really went backwards and became-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... more sinful than holy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he's not this wise king that he was supposed to be, nor is he this-
Seth: Or at least he-
David: ... monogamous lover than he was supposed to be.
Seth: Or at least he fell from that ideal at some point.
David: He fell from that ideal at some point, yes.
Seth: And so the argument would be like, "Oh, if we have here the ultimate song of love, it couldn't have been written by Solomon."
David: That's right, especially because there's an argument about everything-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... in this book. Let's just say that. Um, but especially because the way Solomon is spoken of in this book-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is as a foil against the male lover in this book-
Seth: Oh
David: ... that Solomon pays for his lovers.
Seth: Mm.
David: And Solomon, uh, like, lets his lovers out like vineyards, and other people tend to them.
Seth: So Solomon, it's not the song of Solomon's love. It's... Solomon's a character in the story, but he's not the, the, he's not the, the man who-
David: He's not... I, I don't believe he's the man.
Seth: Oh, fascinating.
David: In fact, he's compared to the man kind of negatively.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And it's like, "Oh, Solomon has his hundreds of wives, but I only have one." Like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's... There, there's this contrast between Solomon.
Seth: Mm.
David: So maybe this is who Solomon was supposed to be as a lover-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... but never was.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's why most scholars believe that Solomon was not the original audience-
Seth: Because-
David: ... or, or author
Seth: ... that kind of self-critical attitude was not seen in Solomon's later years.
David: That's right, and you would almost need to have had his fall in order to be able to write th- him as a foil this way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the reason why not only having Solomon in, in the background is helpful for the historicity of the story rounding out everything-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... about-... um, like his life in comparison-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to this monogamous, beautiful life. Uh, it's also in the Solomonic tradition. So Solomon wrote wisdom literature-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, like the Book of Proverbs or, uh-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... other, other books in the Solomonic tradition, regardless of authorship, is like Ecclesiastes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and now you have Song of Songs, and they're kind of in conversation with each other. And so S- uh, let's take Proverbs, for example.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Proverbs speaks a lot about sexuality.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, how especially men should act towards women.
Seth: Yeah, it's like, isn't it- it's, it's framed as, like, a father, Solomon, giving advice to his son-
David: That's right
Seth: ... on how to be a good man and be a good h- husband, to be- to seek wisdom, or like-
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And in Proverbs, you have, um, that dilemma that every young man goes through [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of, "What am I going to do with my sexuality?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Kind of thrown between Lady Folly and Lady Wisdom.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: In Proverbs.
Seth: Yeah, he like... Yeah, that's right. Solomon, like, pictures the choice that every young man- that, that his son would face as the choice between two different women.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, the faithful Lady Wisdom-
David: Yep
Seth: ... or, like, the seductress.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And both of the women come out into the street-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and call out to this man, this young man.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And they allure him with wine, and bread, and the promise of love, but they're doing it two very different ways. And so not only is this a l- a parable-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that Solomon is giving his son about, "Hey, make sure you choose the wise woman from Proverbs 31-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and not the promiscuous, adulterous woman."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's also a picture, a metaphor, that, that is in Proverbs-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of wisdom itself, that you would choose a wise life and not a life-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of folly. Because a wise life leads to life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and a f- a life full of folly leads to death. It's, it's the Garden of Eden again. Like-
Seth: Oh
David: ... know good and evil.
Seth: Okay.
David: And choose good, and you'll have life; choose, uh, folly, and you'll have death.
Seth: So what I'm hearing is, like, it's a love song.
David: Now, we're talking about Proverbs here.
Seth: Oh.
David: And, and Solomonic wisdom tradition.
Seth: Yeah, so-
David: Okay, yes
Seth: ... so I'm just, like, r-
David: Yep
Seth: ... putting all this together.
David: Yep, together. Yep.
Seth: What, what we're having, it's like... So when we get to the Song of Songs or the Song of Solomon, in those first words we see, "Which is Solomon's," it should just automatically connect us to everything else we know about Solomon. We know him as a wise man, who, like, maybe ushered in one of the greatest eras of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Israel's history, yet had a great fall. Who was known for his... for a type of love, that he, like, you know, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... a type of love. And he's also known for a whole bunch of literature where he's adjuring his son to choose between two different women. And so when we just read that first line, we should be like, "Okay, what do we know about Solomon?" And everything we know about the wisdom literature and Solomon's story should begin to populate our minds, and one of those things, too, is even the Garden of Eden.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, and I remember from my time in 1 Kings, um, that whenever Solomon's reign takes place, he's described as, like, this new Adam figure, where he is this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, he's like, he is this... He is the high point of Israel's-
David: That's right
Seth: ... Israel's civilization in some ways.
David: Yep.
Seth: And which makes his fall so-
David: That's right
Seth: ... horrifying.
David: He builds the temple-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and fills it with all the old Garden imagery.
Seth: God's presence comes, and like... Yeah, yeah.
David: And you've got, you've got pomegranates, and figs, and all those kinds of things coming back, and-
Seth: And to your-
David: We're, we're gonna run into that
Seth: ... to your point, is, like, wisdom literature itself is not just about how best to live.
David: Although it is.
Seth: Although it is, but it is also a way to think back to the very first story in the Bible-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and the choice between following God or doing what is right in our own eyes.
David: That's right.
Seth: And like-
David: Because wisdom literature is the best way to live, because if we follow wisdom, we will end up back in the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, we will be a part of God's wise creation.
Seth: S-
David: And so it's interesting to think about this, um, where Solomon's literature is kind of in conversation with itself. And so if you think about how Proverbs and Ecclesiastes talk to each other-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Proverbs comes across, and it's just very clear-cut.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I- if you, if you do w- wise things, you will be blessed. If you obey God's commands, everything's gonna work out for you.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: And we know by lived experience that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... often, really faithful Christians suffer extreme things, and Proverbs doesn't deal with that.
Seth: Right.
David: Ecclesiastes does.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it comes in and argues, in a sense, with Proverbs-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and both are in the Solomonic tradition. And it's like, actually, I can do everything right-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and everything goes to crap.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and what Proverbs and Ecclesiastes do is they balance each other out. I think there's something similar happening with how Proverbs and Song of Songs talk to each other.
Seth: Okay.
David: With Proverbs, on the whole, there, there's a few exceptions, but on the whole, sexuality is something warned against, and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and, you know, "Be very careful, my son."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, "Tread lightly. Make-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... make good choices." [chuckles]
Seth: The seductress is the Lady Folly.
David: That's right.
Seth: The one-
David: And it's like, man-
Seth: The sexual one is foolishness
David: ... I'm gonna, I'm gonna be scared of sex now.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Um, but then Song of Songs comes and kind of balances it out, and it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Yes, my son, but look at the beauty of a wise marriage-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and a wise physical union. Let me show you how good it can be."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they're kind of in conversation with each other, too, and I think they balance each other out. So-
Seth: So-
David: ... that's why I think Solomonic literature is a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... helpful canon within a canon to think about.
Seth: Well, I asked earlier, it's like, "Well, is the point of this song to, like, teach us how to feel, how to, like, feel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... love?" And you said, "No, as mu- as in- as much as it is a love song, it will teach us how to feel." And so what I'm hearing you say now is, like, well, this is a song of wisdom. So is this a love song that teaches us to choose wisdom?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and is that, is that what the purpose of the song is? Or am I... Am I it's like... Or are you just saying, like, "No, these are-
David: Yeah.
Seth: "These are-
David: I haven't made any, any conclusive statements yet.
Seth: These are the universes that we should be living in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... thinking about what love songs do to us, think about what wisdom does to us.
David: Yes.
Seth: The only th- definitive thing, then, is that this is a love song?
David: This is a love song in the wisdom tradition of Solomon.
Seth: Okay.
David: And I think we can say-... maybe at the, at the outset, that this song is, is going to show us what wise love between a man and a woman looks like. And I, and I think that opens up a- another conversation for us to have.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that is kind of what you're getting at here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is how do we interpret or approach this book?
Seth: Yeah.
David: A- and maybe the question before that is, we still haven't quite lined out what is this book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... first. We've kind of addressed the first line.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You've got the greatest love song in the Solomonic wisdom tradition.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then what follows is a series of interconnected poems-
Seth: Okay
David: ... all speaking about basically the same event-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is the consummation of a wedding.
Seth: Okay.
David: A man and a woman coming together. And at different points in different poems, they might be at different stages of that consummation, but you might even argue that this is really just a number of poems looking at the same event from different perspectives.
Seth: And that, that event's, like, the honeymoon night.
David: The honeymoon night.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The wedding night, when the man and woman, after being married, come together in union for the first time.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so you might actually... It might be helpful to think about it that way, not as a linear story-
Seth: Okay
David: ... as something that has, uh, point A, point B, point C, and it's over, but as, um, w- describing one thing, the wise union of a man and a woman, um, and their wedding night. Now, it-
Seth: C- can I ask a question about this?
David: Yes.
Seth: Well, what does a wise wedding night mean? [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, I don't... [laughs] That- those two categories don't really seem to talk to each other for me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So talk to me about what is a wise wedding night? [laughs]
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think w- we'll get into it as we, as we dig in, but on, on the surface, I think what we have to realize is a wise wedding night is, is one where you've got a man and a woman-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... who have b- have been betrothed to each other in a certain way. [chuckles] This... So you have this woman character. Maybe this is a good way to introduce the characters.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So you have this beloved. Now, she's the main speaker-
Seth: Okay
David: ... uh, which is rare in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... pretty much the whole Bible to have the main voice-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of, um, an entire book of scripture be that of a woman.
Seth: And back to the Solomonic wisdom tradition, that is one of the main voices of the Book of Proverbs, is-
David: The v- the voice of Lady Wisdom
Seth: ... is the voice of Lady Wisdom.
David: That's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep. And so some have even argued for female authorship here-
Seth: Oh, fascinating
David: ... which is pretty fascinating.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think that case gets stronger as you get into the middle of it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But culturally, it's like, was it even possible?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It doesn't really... It doesn't super matter, but what matters is it, it's like, it sounds like a woman. How could a woman not have written this?
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and so, uh, you've got this, you've got this woman, and she has protected her virginity, um, extremely well. She's been a part of this community, the Daughters of Jerusalem-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who have all protected their virginity together, 'cause virginity was highly, highly prized-
Seth: Right
David: ... in this culture, and a lot of cultures of this time. Um, and it was kind of the closest thing to holiness for somebody to think about, this virgin bride.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, there's even provisions in the law where if the husband is, like, doubts his wife's virginity-
Seth: Mm
David: ... then the wife has to bring proof of her virginity to, like, the priests and the parents to show-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that, no, like, I mean, to get a little biological, "My hymen was broken."
Seth: Yes.
David: "Here's the proof."
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and so, like, virginity was something very protected, um, so much so that you have these Daughters of Jerusalem-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that have protected their own virginity and her virginity, and then you have the watchman or the brothers, um, that have also been in charge of taking care of their sister-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and making sure that she and her virginity stay safe, because that was also a familial responsibility.
Seth: Yeah. Well, maybe let me ask a different question, like, why is her virginity important? It's like you introduce the main character and mention that she's a virgin, which would feel like a biological... or not biological, but bi- like a biographical fact.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then you s- but then you set up this whole, like, well, the whole ancient Near Eastern culture was valuing it. Her brothers are guarding it. Like, why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is virginity important, and why, why are you bringing it up now? Because you're making it, you're making it seem like it's an important part of the book. [laughs]
David: It... Yeah, it will be an important part of the book that we'll get to. Um, and, and I, I guess I didn't look a ton into why there was such a high value on virginity. Uh, a few things come to mind. One was it's the beginning of the biblical story, so for this reason, uh, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That- that's a singular event.
Seth: And the blessing of the world-
David: That's right
Seth: ... comes-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from... The multiplication, the blessing that God promises comes from the loss of virginity.
David: Yeah. And then I think that there's also this high value on monogamy as a ethic [chuckles] and, and a virtue-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, um, kind of even the biblical narrative has to develop into and out of the death of, uh, uh, the death-bringing ways of polygamy and, um, what's the word?
Seth: Mm.
David: Philandering and things like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But also just in culture, uh, and a lot of cultures hold this, that virginity was this symbol of purity because you have this, this woman, this beautiful woman, who has not been known, has not been defiled, as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as some people might put it. I... The Song, the Song of Songs will not put it that way.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In fact, it will do something very different than that. But, you know, the... Or we, we have the words like deflowered or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, the loss of innocence or-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Which, again, the Song will not talk about the loss of virginity in those ways, but there is this cultural way of viewing the loss of virginity as now you are no longer this eligible maiden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So if you lose your virginity-... uh, and then you don't have a husband there to protect you, you're now kind of worthless in society, and you were unwanted.
Seth: There's a social reality there, too-
David: There's a social reality
Seth: ... where it's like if you, if you lose your virginity, you are no longer eligible to be married again.
David: That's right, and you might have, you m- then you're the subject of-
Seth: There's a-
David: - widowhood and shame.
Seth: There's a cultural stigma around being unmarried.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, think about even, even closer to our time, like The Scarlet Letter-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and the scandal and the religious Puritanical culture, uh, that Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote about.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's, like, very scandalous. Yeah, so even that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even the Puritans, like, closer to our time.
Seth: I guess, I think that, I think that makes sense. So you have a cultural time where virginity is prized, where it's like there's a so- like, it's a loss of a social safety net for in some ways.
David: Yep.
Seth: And I, what was most interesting to me is, though, is like, well, why is virginity important to the Bible?
David: Mm.
Seth: And you mentioned there, well, the loss of virginity makes way for the blessing of the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the Garden of Eden. And so I, I, I guess I'm still like, "Well, why would a biblical author choose to make virginity something of a significant importance to, like, write a whole book about?"
David: Yeah, it's really interesting to think about this, um, because virginity in even cultures today, and I think it has been for a very long time, virginity is valuable, that it's prized. Like, why do we call them, like, the Virgin Islands or, or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Virgin Lands or untouched territory or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, I mean, even just think of [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is dumb.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But I even think about, like, I love technology.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like when I open up my new iPad, and no one's ever touched it before. [laughs]
Seth: Ever. [laughs]
David: And it's just new and unsoiled, and it's just like, "Ah!"
Seth: No one has placed their fingerprint on this little screen. [laughs]
David: Yes, exactly.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, a- and but even like... This is, this is kind of, not kind of, it's- this is extremely dark, but you think about in the sex trafficking world-
Seth: Mm
David: ... what human beings, what human women are the most valuable on the blackest markets-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of sex trafficking.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's virgins.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why? I don't know. We can't quite put our finger on it or define it, like, but-
Seth: There's something
David: ... there's something intrinsically priceless and valuable about virginity-
Seth: Mm
David: ... especially a virgin woman, and I think all cultures have come to, I guess, accept [chuckles] ours and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know? But there's still lots of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in our culture, still a lot-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of prizing around protecting your daughter.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I think fathers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... understand that, e- even if their daughters don't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at, at times, but-
Seth: So in the biblical story, then-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so I, I understand, like, I think I, I get that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a natural desire to protect something that has not, like, you know, like a forest, a virgin forest or an island-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to protect something valuable. So what, what is virginity in the biblical story, and why does it begin to take such a pride of place in this main character of the Song of Songs?
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause like you're, you're setting me up to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to talk about.
David: I think, I think that we might be circling a similar question of like, why would God use the metaphor of a branch for something or a vine-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for something? And I think it's the, that the image can only be pressed so far.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, and we could probably find a lot more to talk about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... here, but it's like there is just a sense of this pricelessness, that this woman-
Seth: Mm
David: ... has cared for and nurtured-
Seth: Mm
David: ... uh, her garden, her virginity.
Seth: Mm.
David: And she has... She calls her virginity, like her body, her garden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's kept and walled off and, and kept very careful. She's got the daughters of Jerusalem. She's got the watchmen, her brothers.
Seth: Mm.
David: Everyone's protecting this garden, and now she's going to give that priceless thing over-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to someone else.
Seth: Okay, that's helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So what you're saying is, there's no other parts of the biblical story I need to have in mind as I come into this book. All I really need to know is to understand Song of Solomon, is the, the social and cultural value of virginity to this woman who is the main character.
David: Yeah, yeah. I think so.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That might be... We don't want to be overstating our point there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But yes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think that's, that's fair.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We don't need to be like, "Okay, what's the biblical theme of virginity that culminates here or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... develops strongly here?" I think you're right. I think there's this cultural thing we need to understand, that this woman has prized and protected her virginity in a very-
Seth: Mm.
David: Again, your... This, the question that set all this off was-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... what is a wise wedding night?
Seth: Yeah, [chuckles] yeah.
David: And so you've got this woman who has wisely protected her virginity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And she brings this extremely valuable, priceless thing to a husband.
Seth: Mm. So the wisdom is, "Who do I give something valuable-
David: Who do I give something priceless to?
Seth: That's helpful.
David: And, and then the husband, on the other side, he's gotta be wise-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in order to handle that transfer well. I mean, 'cause that is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how do you take something priceless away from someone-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and give them something equally valuable in return?
Seth: And then that person, if you do not do so, becomes a social pariah.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so, like, that woman becomes in a very vulnerable position if that man does not deal with his wife-
David: Gosh
Seth: ... wisely.
David: Yes, we're getting there.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, this is it. I'm getting goosebumps.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: This is hitting on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what has struck me so fully about the Song in this study, this time, is, especially as a man-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that... And if I'm like, "Okay, Father Solomon's coming to me-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to be like, 'My son-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... here is how to think about sexuality and marriage. Your bride has given you-
Seth: Something priceless
David: ... her most priceless thing.' "
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And now you have to take that from her. You have to destroy it.
Seth: Mm.
David: You actually have to destroy the virginity-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... which is like... And that's how it's pictured in the book. We'll get there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's destroyed, but then on the back end, it's now my job as the husband to give her something priceless in return-
Seth: Mm
David: ... which is my absolute gushing love, and I adorn her, not... She was adorned with virginity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Now she's going, on the other side, she's gonna be adorned with my love, and I'm going to pour it on her and affirm her and comfort her, and now I'm her protector. Her virginity was her protector, and her- and the daughters of Jerusalem-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and the watchmen-... now I'm her protector.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's my job to both make her beautiful, 'cause her virginity made her beautiful, beautiful in the past.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Now it's my job to make her beautiful and to protect her garden-
Seth: Mm
David: ... while I've also taken something out of it.
Seth: Yeah. Even just, like, th- those fears are just basic to not just virginity, but just sex and marriage in general.
David: Yes.
Seth: When you decide to give your body to somebody else-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's this vulnerable thing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that can be a place of, like, deep love or deep abuse.
David: Or, and deep fear.
Seth: And deep fear.
David: Yeah, shame. Yes.
Seth: And so, like, those constellation of emotions is like, "What's happening?" And, and-
David: That is what's happening.
Seth: Okay.
David: Like, we are, we are there. [chuckles] We are, we are- we've gotten there, and so a wise wedding night... Maybe I can put it this way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a wise wedding night is where virginity is transferred into marriage.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, the virginity is transferred into sex, and there's no shame.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's no loss of beauty, and there's no loss in pricelessness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But that transfer is made, and it's from glory to glory.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that's what a wise wedding night should look like.
Seth: Mm-hmm. How can a man and a woman destroy something together-
David: [gasps]
Seth: ... and, like, build something more beautiful on the other side?
David: Yes. Okay, done there.
Seth: And that's fascinating because that really is, as we already said, like, that is the story of Adam and Eve in the garden.
David: Yes.
Seth: In their virginity, they destroy something together and then begin populating the world, tending and keeping the garden. Um, that, that is-
David: Yep
Seth: ... what humanity is meant to do.
David: Yes, and when it doesn't, what happens?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, like, if y- y- so l- let's, let's go ahead and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and paint this quick picture. What happens when you don't act wisely in this relationship? You seize the fruit before-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you're supposed to.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Instead of bringing life and flourishing in your relationship and in the world, you bring death and destruction.
Seth: And shame.
David: And shame.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So you had naked people who were there together, felt no shame.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They reach for a wisdom that's not theirs-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and they seek to live in a way that's different from what God intended.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they seek to define good and evil for themselves, and all of the sudden, now there's shame in their nakedness. There is a breaking in the ordering of their desires. God says, "Eve, your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." And then there's a breaking in the world, thorns and brambles.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the world breaks whenever we try to take wisdom into our own hands-
Seth: Mm
David: ... before God gives it to us.
Seth: And very specifically for the poem, like, what we do with our bodies really, like, determines the fate of the world.
David: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Yep.
Seth: It's like, especially in marriage, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... well, it's like, it determines the fate of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's why the marriage night is a subject of wise reflection, not just a fun thing that happens after [chuckles] you get married. [laughing]
David: Yes, for the man.
Seth: For the [laughing] yeah, that's right.
David: Yes. Yeah, it really does. What we do with our bodies does affect the fate of the whole world, and that might seem like an oversimplification or an exaggeration-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but you're right. Like, if you go back to the beginning of the story of the Bible-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and w- the fate of the world, of would the world experience-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the image of God in humanity, was tied up in Adam and Eve-
Seth: Mm
David: ... having sex without shame [chuckles]-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and multiplying.
Seth: Creating a family.
David: A cr- a family-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... throughout the world, and that would ac- and, like, carrying God's wisdom in that way-
Seth: Mm
David: ... throughout the world. But when that relationship broke-
Seth: Mm
David: ... so did the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it is interesting that now how is God healing the world? It is through, um, embodied humans, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, acting in the wise way that God would have us act in the world, and that can be any kind of morality, any kind of action-
Seth: Right
David: ... but specifically in virginity and marriage are the two categories that we have.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, how people protect and prize their virginity and how people wisely enter into monogamous heterosexual marriage-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... both affect what happens in the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and there's a wisdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that goes out from that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or there's more breaking that goes out from that.
Seth: Yeah. I'm also thinking of all the ways that if that's, like, the basic structure of Genesis and th- the hu- the human race, like, what we do with our bodies ends up, like, affecting the world, especially as it relates to our wives and the act of sex. Um, it also makes me, makes me think a little bit more deeply about why Jesus would call himself the groom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he would call his church his bride, and how- and then later, that the Church is his body-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as well. So it, it makes me think very... It's like, if it makes sense, then, if one of the most basic structures of flourishing in the world is the vulnerable giving up of virginity-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for the creation of family, that you would have repeated in Jesus's life and death, the giving up of life-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for the sake of a family.
David: Yeah, he creates a family.
Seth: Uh, he creates a family-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who is called also his body-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and is meant to, through the actions of that body, bring blessing and thriving to the world. Like, that's, that's the story of Jesus as well.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Seth: So it make- it makes sense to me, then, that that metaphor is used, 'cause I think sometimes it's weird. Like, I'm a part of a bride?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, it, it feels like a strange, mystical label for the Church and Jesus.
David: And Jesus, yep.
Seth: But, like, this is helping me, like, re- "Oh, no, this is the story of the whole Bible."
David: That's right. Through my union with Jesus, like, him and me and I and him, our communion-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he is birthing a family-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is blessing the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, through Jesus indwelling his church through his Spirit-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he is creating a family-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the world, and what had to happen for that to occur was the giving over of this priceless, valuable thing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the life of Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And yet, how could that transfer happen-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and still be good? Well, because he rose from the dead and is now seated on the highest throne and indwells his people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then for us to enter into that relationship with him, we have to do the same thing.
Seth: We die.
David: We die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We give up this priceless thing, our very lives-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and we hand it over to Jesus, and we're like, "How can me giving you my very life and dying on a cross with you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... how can that bring flourishing?" Well, it's 'cause he's the good husband.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's the one who can do that transfer-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and nothing is lost in the process. Instead, everything is gained.
Seth: Man, well, that's awesome. [laughing]
David: We haven't even gotten into the song yet.
Seth: [laughing]
David: We're just talking about the categories, but so let's, let's stop here.
Seth: Yes.
David: And next episode, we'll go into the structure of the song.
Seth: Awesome.
David: We'll look at some of the language in the song, and we'll dig deep into the woman's experience of losing her virginity-
Seth: Mm
David: ... how the man transfers that for her, and what we can learn from the getting into the text of the song.
Seth: Awesome.
David: So thank you, guys, for joining us, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]