David: Hey, everyone. Just wanted to let you know that if you have little ones around that do not know about the birds and the bees yet, maybe listen to this episode with some headphones on, because we're talking [chuckles] about Song of Songs. Wanted to give you that heads-up. Let's dive in. [gentle music] This is what Jesus does when he comes as God man, heaven, and Earth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Since he's both-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he can, like the husband in the song, transfer us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from broken, or, or virgin, or whatever-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, only human-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into his divinity.
Seth: Mm.
David: That he takes us from human and makes us into himself.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
Seth: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. My name is Seth, and we are doing our third episode on the Song of Songs. David-
David: Woo!
Seth: How are you feeling?
David: We are. I'm feeling like I, I think I got over the hardest part. [chuckles]
Seth: [chuckles]
David: And, uh, like I said in the first episode, I came in kind of trepidatious-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but, like, with a lot of joy and hope-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that I could take you somewhere that I found really beautiful, and I think we got there.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I'm very thankful for that, because I've just felt, like, really moved and changed by this book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, as a father, as a husband, a father of boys-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know? And I'm like, "I want to show Seth some of the stuff I've seen here."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I feel like I've done that.
Seth: I think you did.
David: And so I'm happy about that, and now I kind of... I feel like we get to enter into a part of the conversation where we have a little bit more history, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we've re- we've repped these muscles a lot more regularly-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of like, "Okay, how does this story fit into the Biblical story?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Oh, we do this all the time."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which may- maybe means it'll be our worst episode. [laughs]
Seth: Maybe, maybe, or our most speculative and where we play armchair-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Biblical theologians.
David: But you a- you ended the last episode with the question, "Okay, I understand this book as a, as a, as a song about a woman's loss of her virginity. What is this doing in the Bible?"
Seth: You m- hinted at an answer in the first episode, which was something like, "This is part of Solomon's wisdom tradition," and because it is in that tradition, the loss of virginity and the sharing of the marriage bed becomes a metaphor for also the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the fate of humanity-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, as bound up in these two events. So I was like, "Okay-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's cool," but I'm also just thinking as I... Why is a romance between a man and a woman, and the consummation of a marriage, in my Bibles? Because I think I could argue on a historical or even a, a literary merit point why a whole bunch of other things are in my Bible a little more easily.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, oh, the Torah's in here, because it tells the story of how Israel became a nation-
David: Right
Seth: ... and the laws that helped establish it, and you've got the history books that tell you the history of God's chosen people throughout time.
David: Yep.
Seth: You've got the prophets, who are critiquing God's people. You have the Gospels, where you have Jesus-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... and the letters that comment on his life. Like, okay-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I've got those.
David: Why this one? [chuckles]
Seth: And then maybe the closest parallel would be Psalms.
David: Mm.
Seth: But these are personal songs reflecting on the goodness of God in a, in a person's life-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that have im- import because he's the King of Israel, and they are calling Israel to faith in that one true God.
David: Mm.
Seth: One thing I notice here is, like, nobody's... Like, no one's called to have faith in God.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... really a personal poem.
David: It's a very human poem.
Seth: A very human poem-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about a relationship of love, and you have these calling out to the daughters of Jerusalem. So anyway, this breaks some of my categories for how I normally think about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a book of the Bible and makes me think, "Why on Earth is it in the Bible? Uh, and how do we understand it in light of the Biblical story?"
David: Yeah, uh, these are really good questions, uh, and ones that I wrestled with for a long time as well, and I think at the most basic level, I think we have to make sure we don't overreach for a purpose for this book, not that that larger purpose isn't there.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think it is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we'll get there, but we h- we can't skip over the nearest purpose-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for it. So as you were going through the different books-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the Bible, like, why is the Torah here? That makes sense, so the B- okay, cool.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: One that popped into my head is why is Ecclesiastes in my Bible?
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause that one's kind of a downer. [chuckles]
Seth: Well, I... You gave me a good answer for that one already.
David: Yes, right.
Seth: It's like the Book of Proverbs tells us how life should be-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Ecclesiastes tells us why, or ex- attempts to explain why life doesn't work the way it should.
David: Yes, that's right.
Seth: Like, okay, those things fit for me. Uh, but yeah, you're right. Ecclesiastes does feel like another odd book in the canon.
David: Right, yeah, and so I think with the Song of Songs, then, you have this extremely practical, in a sense... It doesn't read practical, right? But it, it addresses an extremely practical reality-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that human sexuality is a gigantic part of our reality.
Seth: Okay.
David: I mean, just look around even today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It is always being talked about. It is always a hot-button issue. It-
Seth: And, like, throughout time, the god of sex is probably the one that was most worshipped-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in any ancient society. [chuckles]
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, that was the, the favorite god was the god of sex.
David: Yes, I mean, you look at, um, you know, cults of, and paganism in the past, they always looped sex into it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, you had fertility cults, and-
Seth: Mm
David: ... there was even questions around how does our human sex-... uh, talk to the spiritual realm.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and then you have so many things about, like, how to be in human relationships with each other, adultery, divorce, um, uh, you know, how to treat hum- you know, women with dignity, how to be a man. And like, so you have, even outside the Bible... Within the Bible, you have all of that, but even outside, human sexuality, what to do with it, is just at the top of the list of things that people are concerned about.
Seth: Yeah. That makes sense. So like, why is this story about sex in the Bible? It's like, well, because everybody's, like, in one way or another, all cultures revolve around sex.
David: Yes.
Seth: I- the, the, the continuation of a population of people-
David: Depends on it.
Seth: Depends on it!
David: Yes.
Seth: And the breakdown of, like, like, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, or good sex within marriage-
David: Ruins cultures, and-
Seth: Ruins or, or blesses cultures.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, yeah, and it's like that's why you would want to have a book about sex. And it makes me think, too, we have a bunch of laws about types of sex not to have.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And this gives us the what to fill our time. Like, if we're not supposed to have sex in all these ways, what... It begs the question-
David: Yes
Seth: ... what would-
David: Good, healthy, wise sex look like?
Seth: Look like.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so-
David: Yes
Seth: ... this fills that place-
David: It does
Seth: ... in the Bible.
David: That's right, and so there, there's a lot of things to talk about there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and so one of the things is that this song has regularly been seen as kind of this beacon of light in the Bible, because it actually-
Seth: Mm
David: ... celebrates human romantic physical love.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, especially in a culture, and I mean in a Judeo culture, in a Christian culture, in a Western [chuckles] culture, that can think of sex i- in ugly terms or dark terms, or that it's something to be hidden or, you know, or, you know, tucked away or not talked about, or it's shameful. And the Bible is now [chuckles] has this book in it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that says if it's treated wisely-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the way it's designed by God to be treated, human sexuality is something to be celebrated-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... enjoyed, and intoxicated by.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And this is something that, you know, the, the purity culture, I think, that I was raised in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... gave a head nod to, but did not teach properly.
Seth: It was like, "Hey, sex is gonna be great when you're married, and here's a whole bunch of things not to do."
David: Right.
Seth: And it was, like, kind of focused more on the prohibitions.
David: Right, more on Proverbs than Song of Songs.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it was like, "I'm really scared of sex-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but I don't think I can celebrate it."
Seth: And to, like, maybe to, [chuckles] to give some credit, it's like, I mean, sex is kind of all teenage Seth maybe thought about. [chuckles]
David: Right.
Seth: And so it's like, it makes sense that you'd have a fear-based-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... response, where it's like, "The only thing we're gonna do is gonna tamp down the teenage desire [chuckles]-
David: Right
Seth: ... of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of younger people.
David: But it's interesting. It's like, why is this book in our Bible? It's because God knows us. [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And it's like, uh, from a male perspective, like, all teenage Seth, all-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... teenage David thought about, all teenage-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... boys think about is sex.
Seth: Majority, if I also thought-
David: It's majority.
Seth: I thought about video games. [laughing]
David: We also thought about other things. We also thought about video games.
Seth: [laughing]
David: Calm down. [laughing]
Seth: And books. I read a lot of books.
David: I read a lot of books, too, yeah. Uh, but-
Seth: [chuckles]
David: ... it was always there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's just a reality of being human.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, it's how we were designed. There's something-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and it's like there's something good in it, that this husband that you hear from isn't ashamed of how he feels about his bride.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's not like, "I'm so sorry that I find your breasts lovely."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He doesn't... There's nothing wrong with that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... desire. Uh, and that's actually a good thing in which, like, like God has made man, but it has to be done in the proper context, or else-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like you said, it's gonna wreak havoc on the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, same for a woman. It's like, you've got this precious thing, and it's, you feel more vulnerable, you feel more exposed.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: How can you treat that? Well, finding a wise husband, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so I, I was, I, I've been thinking as I've been studying this, I, I've got a six-year-old and a three-year-old boy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You've, uh, you've got a-
Seth: 11-
David: 11-
Seth: ... nine, and five.
David: So but nine-year-old boy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right, and so you, you, we're gonna have to have these conversations-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as a lot of our listeners have had, I'm sure, with their children.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'd be like, "What am I gonna use? What's my resource?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And as I've been studying this book, I'm like, "This is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I think, the God-given textbook for how to talk to your kids about sex."
Seth: Mm, yeah.
David: Because it does so many things extremely well, and it is something that every single person has to have wisdom about in order to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... live in this world wisely.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And if you don't, it can wreck things for you and those around you. And so I'm like, I think the reason this is in our Bible is for the same reason Proverbs is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is because we need to know what the wise, good life looks like. We need to know what wisdom is. It has to be revealed to us.
Seth: Especially when it concerns sex. We need-
David: Especially.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so I think that's at, like, the nearest level-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that we cannot reach beyond and should not try to reach beyond-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is this is a book that shows us a wise view of sex and virginity, marriage and virginity.
Seth: Mm.
David: I think that's also very important, because we know in, in the New Testament-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we have a high value on singleness and virginity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, Jesus was single and a virgin.
Seth: Mm.
David: Paul was single and presumably a virgin. [chuckles] I mean, he was a Pharisee before he was a follower of Jesus, so I don't think he was philandering-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... before that. He was, uh, according to the law, blameless.
Seth: Yes.
David: So I don't think he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, had sex outside of marriage. And he's like, you know, "I commit to any of you, if God calls you to it, to, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... stay single." Uh, and, and so this song also offers this view of virginity as something to be prized and protected and valued, and not only-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as a, uh, as-
Seth: Mm
David: ... something to escape from in order to experience actual joy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It prizes both. It does that in a really almost seeming con- seemingly contradicting way-
Seth: Mm
David: ... throughout the song.
Seth: ... that it can prize virginity and physical union-
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: -almost equally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, and, and, but I think-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it's doing that on purpose.
David: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really, really insightful, and, like, there's- we shouldn't seek to find a overly s- we shouldn't overly spiritualize something that we need practical wisdom for. [chuckles]
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, there, uh, I-
Seth: I don't think we try to do that with the, with the Proverbs.
David: Right.
Seth: It's just like, "Oh, there's wisdom in multiple counselors."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "What does it mean?"
David: Mean, right.
Seth: And it's like, it means ask other people for advice. [laughing]
David: Yeah. Right. That's right.
Seth: And but in the same way, that Proverbs kinda goes cosmic for a second.
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: How is Song of Solomon's invi- Song of Solomon inviting us to go cosmic?
David: Yes.
Seth: Um-
David: Yes, and I think it does.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like I said, it does reach deep into the Biblical story and plays with a lot of Biblical imagery and themes, but I just don't want us to miss the nearest purpose in reference of it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is a wise way to handle your body when it comes to virginity and sexuality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, that's just really good, and I think we've talked a lot about-
Seth: That's primarily what we talked about
David: ... what that wisdom is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the last two episodes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So if you're like, "Well, they're not talking about it," go listen to the other two episodes. We did talk about it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think here now, what we're going is, okay, in the canon of Scripture, what's it doing? 'Cause I think we've even talked a bit about how, what it, how it's functioning in the canon within a canon-
Seth: Within wisdom
David: ... in the Solomonic literature.
Seth: Yeah, within wisdom.
David: Right, it, it's kind of maybe balancing or filling out why you shouldn't just be afraid of sex- [chuckles]
Seth: Mm
David: ... but enjoy it. You know, that kinda thing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So broadly speaking-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the canon of Scripture, what's going on?
Seth: Yeah, and-
David: Is the question.
Seth: Yeah, and, and, and part of my question is motivated by the fact that another one of the few facts I know about Song of Songs is that for a long, long time now, the Song of Songs is read during Passover among the Jewish people. So there's clearly, like, a... something about the national identity of God's people, they've found some sort of parallel in the Song of Songs.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so I'm like, "That's really evocative to me."
David: Yes.
Seth: And obviously, they, they've thought deeply about the Torah and the, and the Bible and the Old Testament-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the Song of Songs. And then obviously, too, we have something about the very identity of God's church being wrapped up in marriage. We've talked multiple times about Jesus Christ being the groom and we being the bride, and Paul will say in Ephesians 5 that man and women- men and women having sex is a picture of Christ and the church.
David: Or men and women being married.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And presumably-
David: Well, things happen in, in marriage
Seth: ... the union-
David: Yes, the union, yes
Seth: ... the union of marriage, the consummation-
David: Right
Seth: ... of marriage as being a picture of Christ and His church. So there seems to be something, like, canon-spanning-
David: Yes
Seth: ... about-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... about sex and marriage-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that speaks to the very identity of the people of God and the story God wants to tell with His people.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is, like, I'm curious about.
David: Yeah, and I think the Song- I think what- maybe the way we should view the Song in that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... canon is not that this is now God's definitive statement on what sex is in the canon of Scripture or how to view the redemptive historical-
Seth: Mm
David: ... theology of marriage within the story, but that this is a high point celebrating it and showing its wise use and application.
Seth: Can you say it a different way?
David: Um, I don't want to read this song and, uh, and, and try to map on every single part of the Biblical story to it or-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You know, like, I... 'cause it's been, it's... and not that you were doing that. That is how this, this Song has been, I would say, misused in, in many ways.
Seth: When the husband says, "Your hair is like a flock of goats," well, this is back when Abraham was r- running down the hill to fight. [chuckles]
David: Sure.
Seth: Yeah. [laughing]
David: Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Yeah, okay.
David: Yeah, or, uh, my favorite one is, "My lover is like a sachet of myrrh between my two breasts."
Seth: Okay.
David: And, uh, a famous, uh, commentator, I mean, centuries ago [chuckles] said, uh, that, "Christ is the sachet of myrrh, and the two breasts are the Old and New Testament."
Seth: Mm, I think that was Augustine. Was that Augustine?
David: I don't think it was Augustine.
Seth: I think... I feel like that was Augustine. [laughing]
David: [laughing]
Seth: I feel like I heard that recently. I think it might be Augustine. [laughing]
David: But anyway, we don't wanna do that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, but yes, it is having a larger conversation, so let's get into it. So let, let's look at so- and, uh, uh, let's also address the s- the, the, the categories that the Song highlights for us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So some of those, that we, we've already, we've already talked about, we can dig in a little deeper. So garden is, is a regular thing. Uh, not only does the bride refer to her body as a garden, but within that garden, there are pomegranates and lilies and mountains and things that just evoke Eden-
Seth: The Garden of Eden
David: ... to us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and a man and a woman having, uh, being naked in front of each other and unashamed-
Seth: Mm, mm, mm
David: ... and eating the fruit of its proper time. Like, there is a lot-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of garden imagery-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and a lot of commentators have picked up on that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is not one of the areas where people are arguing.
Seth: Yes.
David: There is a lot of garden imagery in here, so we can talk about that maybe-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to begin.
Seth: And then can I... This is something that we keep assuming-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but marriage as well.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, the context in which this se- sex happens-
David: Yep
Seth: ... is the co- is, is marriage.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so I think that's also interesting to me. Within the Song, marriage is being prized, the place in which intimacy is supposed to be experienced, and then as we go backwards in the story to the Garden of Eden, we're also going back to another marriage-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that kicks off the story of God's people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... beginning with Adam and Eve.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, and so, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's why I'm also, like, interested by that.
David: So yes, and there's a lot of wedding imagery. Uh, there are wedding processions described in the Song, these, these processions and litters going down aisles and coming to one another. Uh, they're referred to as my, my, "my bride, my beloved." There's all this-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... wedding imagery thrown in here as well, and the veil. So anyway-
Seth: Okay
David: ... lots of wedding imagery.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So yes, you should be thinking about the context of a wedding and a marriage whenever you're reading this song.
Seth: Okay.
David: So you're right. So in the garden-... I think it is interesting that you've got this paradigmatic way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that humans are supposed to relate to one another. And we've talked about this already a few times, that you've got a, a, a, a naked relationship between husband and wife that has no shame in it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in their union, they are fruitful and multiply, and bless the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that there is a blessing that comes out of marital union-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the form of children-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who have been raised wisely, but also in the form of two people who aren't alone, and who have enj- and who are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... enjoying each other without shame. That that relationship is itself a blessing, and that relationship in itself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... blesses the world.
Seth: Yes, and I think, too, if we're thinking, like, what does Song of Solomon say to the story of God's people, of which we are a part-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like, it- the blessing is not just a, a relationship in which we are not alone. It's not just children, but it's also, like, the civilization that comes from them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the subduing of the Earth for its good, the stewardship of the Earth for its good.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, like, from beginning in that, an act of consummation, the whole world is stewarded well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and that's the, that's the calling all humans are meant to enter into, is the stewardship of the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... based off a prior act of vulnerable love.
David: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we are called in- to enter into a family that orders the world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... according to God's wisdom. And I think we can do that through marriage or through virginity.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Just that we enter into both, prizing them wisely.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: A- and we can enter into that and bless the world through it.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so, yeah, I think you're right. It's interesting, I think, that you have, in the Garden of Eden, in the fall, you have a locked garden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is a regular theme in the Song of Songs.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: And it's referring to the, the bride's virginity, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no one has entered into her garden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You have this locked garden, and in order for someone to enter into it, and enter into this paradise we're discussing-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that produces all this fruit and blesses-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the world, uh, this death that she went through has to occur.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm.
David: She has to shed blood, and has to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... die, and be beaten and bludgeoned, uh, in her virginity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to have entry into this Garden of Eden, and have paradise and children. And so it's interesting there, just-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that very evocative picture of, you have the Garden of Eden with the cherubim guarding it with-
Seth: Mm
David: ... a flaming sword.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It is a locked garden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And how do we enter back into it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's through death.
Seth: Mm.
David: Through the death of Jesus, the shedding of-
Seth: Mm
David: ... blood, the sub- like, our own death and submitting to him, like, that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... He, our husband-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... brings us back into his garden.
Seth: Well, even in the Eden narrative, like the Cain and Abel, or like Adam and Eve are exiled out of the garden. So well, let- let's go back for a second, because we had this perfect relationship, and then we kept talking about how v- well, the loss of virginity was, like, tied back to the moment of failing to choose the right f- or choosing to eat the fruit before it was time.
David: That it could be that.
Seth: That it could be that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, and then-
David: If the, if the daughters of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Jerusalem awakened love before it's so desired-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would be like taking the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and eating it before God let you.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: And because Adam and Eve do this, they're cast out of the garden.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the rest of the story of the Bible is them trying to get back in.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And A- and Cain and Abel bring their offerings where? To the front of the garden-
David: Right
Seth: ... in hopes of accessing the Garden of Eden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... once again. They are the lovers knocking at the door. And then as the story progresses, you have the tabernacle and the temporal covered in garden imagery-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and priests coming and knocking at the door, and yet only g- and get given entrance once a year-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or however often. So, like, that same movement back towards the garden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is the movement of God's people throughout the story of the Bible. And, oh, man, I'm just keep, I'm just-
David: I love it
Seth: ... I'm just riffing here. As like, you have Cain and Abel coming to the garden, not, not entering, but the choosing of Abraham's family, and it's through Abraham's family that you're given... There's this long preamble to this moment where God marries his people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... on Mount Sinai.
David: "I will be your God, you will be my people," is his confession of marriage to Israel.
Seth: Which... And that's how-
David: And that's, "I am my beloved, and he is mine," which is repeated three times-
Seth: And-
David: ... along with, you have the three warnings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the daughters.
Seth: Yes.
David: And you have the three declarations of, "I am my beloved, he is mine," reflecting on and repeating God's covenant love to Israel.
Seth: And then after that, you have instructions for a taber- for a garden.
David: Yes.
Seth: You have instructions-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for a garden.
David: Yep.
Seth: And-
David: And we're gonna marry, and we're gonna move in together.
Seth: And we're gonna move in together-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and we have this hope that God and his people, like, will enter into the garden once again. But Exodus ends with Moses being unable-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the- God's presence falls.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, it's there, but Moses can't get in.
David: That's right. Yep. It's also fascinating to think about how this movement into the garden, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're exiled because they took the, the fruit too early-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and they were moved out of the garden. So if we were trying to stay in the imaginative universe of the song here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, to... I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna oversimplify it, but just so we have to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... stop speaking all the metaphors, to engage in unwise sex or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... pre-marital sex or something like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Extramarital sex.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, let's, let's call it unwise sex.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Unwise sex-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is to take the fruit too early.
Seth: Okay.
David: Uh, and then that leads to a broken world, broken relationships, and exile from the garden. How do we get back into the garden? Well, it can't be through sex, 'cause that's what broke it.
Seth: Mm.
David: But in a divine twist, that is how we get back in. Because what is God's promise to Adam and Eve on how they will get back in? It's through Eve's offspring-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that, "You will be brought back to me."
Seth: Interesting.
David: And so it's through Adam and Eve, you guys working through your shame and broken relationship issues- [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... entering into wise sex-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in order to create a family that blesses the world, that leads to the Messiah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who then will go through his own death and resurrection to bring all people into the garden.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that's beautiful.
Seth: That's really cool. That's really cool.
David: So garden imagery-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is everywhere.
Seth: Yeah, and, like, the, the, the pursuit of entering the garden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by the people of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is, like, is the central theme of the Old Testament and the quest of God's people. I guess- guess what I'm getting at is, like, why is it- why was Passover- why was this read at Passover?
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Because it's like this is the central quest of God's people, to be in-
David: The garden
Seth: ... to be in the garden with their God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: To, uh-
David: Yes. Yeah, I think that has to be part of it. I did not study why it's read at Passover.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if I was to dialogue with that for a second, I would also posit, I guess, that the Passover was the moment when Pharaoh's line was cut off, that the line-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the descendants-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of Pharaoh's children were cut off.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That the fruit of his unwise sex, or whatever, is cut off, whereas the children, the product of wise sex, you know, was preserved. So much so that later on, those kids had to be atoned for in order to not work in the temple, because they belong to God. He bought them with blood, it says in Numbers, so now they- they're owned by God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so they have to buy them back in order to not work in the temple, but to just be normal-
Seth: Mm
David: ... citizens later in Numbers.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: 'Cause that was just this huge event. And so at the Passover, uh, you then have... They're reflecting on this event, and they're celebrating more children, you know, more union between husbands and wives-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... creating more generations that will bless the world. You see what I'm saying?
Seth: I don't see what you're saying.
David: So in the Passover, you had a, a cutting off of a evil line.
Seth: The, the, the angel of death coming in, and the firstborn of Eg- Egypt-
David: Of Egypt
Seth: ... die.
David: Being cut off, that's right.
Seth: Okay.
David: So the cutting off of, of the, the generations-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of, of the unwise.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And a pr- a preserving of the wise children.
Seth: Through blood.
David: Through blood.
Seth: Through, like, a, like a-
David: A sacrifice
Seth: ... through a sacrifice. Well, just thinking, too, about-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that bloody moment in the Song of Songs.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so here, then, you've got a, a preservation or a continuation of the wise line of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... at Passover, celebrated in a song that talks about marital union that will create-
Seth: Mm
David: ... more generations of people through the shedding of blood.
Seth: Mm, yeah.
David: In-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in wise sexual union.
Seth: Right.
David: Y- yeah, I don't know why they do it, but that would be-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... a guess. Because you do have this picture of, in the Passover, out of a bloody door, children of Israel come out to enter into Canaan, which would be the Garden of Eden. It was supposed to be the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Where the milk and honey are.
David: That's right-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where the milk and honey are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so in the same way, out of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this bloody garden that-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... this woman has sacrificed, out come, would come-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... children who would inherit, hopefully, a new Garden of Eden.
Seth: Yeah, and it makes me think, too, like, that moment of consummation in the Book of Song of Songs as the... And, uh, not to try to, like, make, put too many inappropriate parallels, but there was a, a real sense in the Hebrew story as we get to Solomon, that he's this new Adam figure-
David: Yes, absolutely
Seth: ... who brings the presence of God. He can go in, like, the temp- the, the, the palace surrounds the temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: The priests are offering, the cloud falls, the nations are blessed. People from all over the world start coming, experiencing God's kingdom. It's- there's a very real sense that Solomon rules Eden.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: That, that he is the king of Eden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where, the place of milk and honey, where all nations are blessed.
David: Yes.
Seth: So there is this sense that he is- he was so close-
David: He was so close
Seth: ... or he was the closest since-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Adam-
David: That's right
Seth: ... to being that k- that figure.
David: That's right, and so here in the Song, I think you also have a picture-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of a wise, Adam-like, Solomon-like gardener.
Seth: Mm.
David: He is a shepherd and a king, is what he's called.
Seth: Mm.
David: And that's, that- those- that's who he is. We didn't talk about that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's... Those are his designations-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is he's a shepherd, and he's, and he- and then she calls him a king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so who else is a shepherd king, you know? [chuckles]
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, you start thinking about-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... these tenders of the fields who are also kingly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he is this Adam-like, um, Solomon-like shepherd king, who in acting wisely with his bride-
Seth: Mm
David: ... brings the Garden of Eden open-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the world. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yes, that is the picture.
Seth: Right, and then in Saul's f- Solomon's fall-
David: Mm
Seth: ... what is the hope? For another Adam-
David: Another one like him.
Seth: Another Adam, like Solomon-
David: That's right
Seth: ... to bring a consummation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for God's people.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, to... And especially after, like, wh- and, like, again, I don't know. I don't know what's appropriate and what's not anymore.
David: Sure.
Seth: However, but, like, the, the point is, like, there's a real anxiety on the part of God's people, that they have lost their relationship with their lover.
David: Right. Have we gone so far-
Seth: Right
David: ... that we'll never come back?
Seth: And, like, the prophets themselves often call thems- they call themselves watchmen.
David: That's right. Yes, you're on it, yep.
Seth: Calling Israel to protect her purity-
David: That's right
Seth: ... which they fail over and over again-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to actually protect.
David: Yes, which-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which God will call Israel, reflecting on her past before her mighty fall.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He will call her, "O virgin Israel."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, he celebrates her virginity before she gave herself over to other false gods-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and calls her a virgin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then she gave that priceless commitment to God alone, you know, over to another.
Seth: Yeah. There's a sense that the anxiety of the woman over the losing of her virginity in marriage-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is the anxiety of God's people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... after-
David: They've lost their innocence
Seth: ... after they've lost their innocence.
David: Will God come back and love us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... again? Will he still find us beautiful? W- who is he, and where did he go?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the song reminds us that he is the God of covenant love-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who always loves his bride, and he's right here.
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music]... the story of the Hebrew people ends in exile.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God's temple is destroyed.
David: Yes.
Seth: That-
David: Where is he? "I sought him and found him not."
Seth: I found him not. So the end of the story of the Hebrew Bible is the people of God asking the same questions of the woman-
David: Absolutely right
Seth: ... in the marriage bed.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like, 'cause they, they also come back home.
David: Yes.
Seth: They come back home to Eden.
David: Yes.
Seth: They come back home to where Solomon used to reign.
David: It's supposed to be, yep.
Seth: And they're asking, like, "But where is God?"
David: But where is God? And the book ends with this, "Come over the mountains.
Seth: Mm.
David: Bound over the mountains. Be like a stag-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... and, and come over the mountains." And in the near referent, that means, "Hey, nuzzle in, my beloved."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "Enjoy my garden."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, but it can also be, you know, this picture of i- of, of Israel calling out-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to God, saying, "God, you're far away." [chuckles]
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Come leap over the mountains. Behold, he comes-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, riding in."
Seth: Come back to the temple.
David: Come back to the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Which then we get to Jesus then, right?
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: He is the stag over the mountains.
David: That's right.
Seth: He is the one, God in the flesh, come to live in a, in a very intimate way with humanity and God's people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that God has never done so before.
David: Here we go.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Okay, so think about this. This is a little, little mind-stretcher.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But as we get into the... Y- you, you, you opened it up-
Seth: Okay
David: ... so now I have to talk about it. The intimate way that God becomes flesh is a theme in the Song of Songs.
Seth: Okay.
David: So think about this. Uh, I hinted at it in an earlier episode, but the man in the song is both virgin and non-virgin.
Seth: Okay.
David: He is sexually inexperienced.
Seth: But-
David: He's never had sex before.
Seth: Yes.
David: So he's a virgin.
Seth: Technically a virgin.
David: Yeah, but he cannot enter into the experience of losing his virginity as the woman can.
Seth: Right.
David: So he's kind of a non-virgin.
Seth: 'Cause he does... Yeah, like her-
David: You don't call a- like, you wouldn't call-
Seth: Her, his-
David: ... a young man a maiden.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, he just doesn't-
Seth: Bachelor, yeah.
David: Yeah, it's just not the same connotation.
Seth: He will not have the same experience.
David: That's right. He inhabits both worlds-
Seth: Okay
David: ... virgin and non-virgin, and only by inhabiting both worlds can he transfer wisely the woman from one to the other.
Seth: Mm.
David: Okay, now think about the first Adam. Adam inhabited two worlds. He was both the dirt of the ground-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and the breath of heaven.
Seth: Okay.
David: He's heaven and earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Woman came from him-
Seth: Okay
David: ... but not from heaven and earth, and she transitions-
Seth: On the side, yeah
David: ... into this beautiful thing, by the help of the one who is both. And so it is the job of this Adam-like gardener-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to redeem and transfer this bride-
Seth: Mm
David: ... from virginity to beautiful wife.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: This is what Jesus does when he comes as God man, heaven and earth.
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm.
David: Since he's both-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he can, like the husband in the song, transfer us-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... from broken or, or virgin or whatever-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, only human-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into his divinity.
Seth: Mm.
David: That he takes us from human and makes us into himself.
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm.
David: And that when we're unified with him, it's like, it's like the Eastern Orthodox Church talks about-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the process of theosis. Like-
Seth: Like we become like him
David: ... we start becoming like him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and, like, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like a picture of salvation that-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... we can see in Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is he's the virgin/not virgin God man who makes the transfer-
Seth: Fascinating
David: ... from one to the other.
Seth: It-
David: It's pretty incredible.
Seth: Is there... I mean, because we're ta- I mean, we're just saying the word virgin a lot. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: But, like, uh, the, the prototypical virgin I think about in the Christian story is Mary.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jesus is born of a virgin.
David: Yes.
Seth: Is there anything we should be in conversation with here-
David: So-
Seth: ... in, like, if Jesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is the stag over the hill-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the groom meant to comfort the anxious people of God, and he comes bor- or, or is that just a detail? That's just another prophetic theme.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's like, it just feels so like-
David: So I feel a little hesitant to engage with this.
Seth: Okay.
David: And I'll tell you why. Uh, up until the 1800s-
Seth: Okay
David: ... uh, the Catholic Church, this is how they interpreted the song-
Seth: Okay
David: ... was a song of the Virgin Mary.
Seth: Oh.
David: And it was often used in the Catholic Church to venerate Mary.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Um, that, in the 1800s, was radically debunked, even by the Catholic Church-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and most Catholic theologians, and only in 1963, I believe, has any Catholic thing been published that tries to bring this interpretation back up, and it did not meet with much-
Seth: Did not fare well [chuckles]
David: ... good reception. And so even the Catholic Church has struggled. Uh, they've used it, but they've struggled to-
Seth: Because they-
David: ... keep it
Seth: ... they want to identify the woman of the song as Mary.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I guess that's not quite my question.
David: It's not what you're trying to do. I'm just giving you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... my trepidation on the topic.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: Uh, yes, so that's why I'm, like, a little hesitant to even engage.
Seth: Maybe we can come back to that question.
David: Okay. [chuckles]
Seth: Because the story is that if Jesus is the groom-
David: Yes
Seth: ... coming to the anxious bride, his people, he, through his life, will assure her of her loveliness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and make the garden and the world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as it should be.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's, that's what's happening.
David: I think if we were gonna do anything with, with Mary, I think a, a beautiful reflection is that in Mary, you do have a daughter of Jerusalem-
Seth: Mm, mm-hmm
David: ... a virgin, precious, priceless daughter of Jerusalem, who has to go through a very different kind of death in order to bring this multiplicative life. It's not in, um, entering into a physical union with Joseph that she creates Jesus-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but it is a, in, in a surrendering her whole life-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and her social standing, and her body, and everything over to the will of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that she then... And there is a beating, and a, and a-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and blood, and through that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... doorway of blood comes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Son of God.... and it's not through sexual union, but it is through a surrender, and a death-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and a vulnerability. And that is the call- I mean, ultimately, yes, Mary did this beautifully, but it is the call of the Christian life, that if we are to birth Christ in us [chuckles] you know, the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... experience a new birth of Christ and become like Him, we must do-
Seth: Right
David: ... what Mary did, and we must surrender ourselves over to the will of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and let Him do what He will do. It's this very vul- like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for, for us as Christians, to think about putting ourselves in the position of a virgin on her wedding night, right? To put ourselves in a-
Seth: Mm
David: ... vulnerable position of like, "God, whatever it is that you wanna do, I'm gonna have to give myself over to you, even if it's a little fearful."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and, like, it, it reminds me of Proverbs 3.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is like, like, "Lean not on your own understanding." [chuckles]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "In all your ways, acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then it goes into the women's stuff after that.
Seth: The women's stuff? [laughing]
David: The women's stuff.
Seth: [laughing]
David: The lady folly, lady wisdom.
Seth: Yes. [laughing]
David: And it's, like, their voices and everything like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and the warnings against sexual promiscuity, and, and it's like-
Seth: I w-
David: ... give yourself over-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the will of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think that's, like, the wisdom theme packing in here, too.
Seth: Yeah, and well, as we think about when we follow wisdom, we get- we gain life. That's the story of the Bible.
David: That's right. That's right.
Seth: And so what I... It made me, and maybe I'm just getting weird with it-
David: [laughs] We're- I think we're past that point, Seth.
Seth: Uh, [chuckles] but, uh, the hope of God's people was that they could enter back into the garden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and commune with their God, and so bring life and flourishing to the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: And there was a sense, there was a way in which Israel, through their defilement, could become a virgin again through sacrifice-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the priest could enter into God's presence.
David: Yes.
Seth: And through this action, the life of God would continue to trickle out into the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there is a sense in which Mary fulfills the hope-
David: I understand
Seth: ... of God's people. She, as a representative-
David: Virgin
Seth: ... Israelite, a representative virgin, meets God in the garden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and life comes from her.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: The true groom-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel has been hoping for since exile-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who is, who then rescues his, his bride.
David: That's beautiful. [laughing]
Seth: [laughing] So that's why-
David: Yes, I love that! That was worth the journey.
Seth: That was worth the journey. [laughing]
David: That's beautiful. Oh, love that. Yeah, and so there, there's, there's... That, I think, is beautiful. Uh, so the theme of virginity, the theme of the garden, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it was all there. I think- do you think we've exhausted enough of the, the, the theme of wisdom? Like, have we- do you think we've talked about that enough? I wanna make sure we've landed those planes.
Seth: I mean, we're, we're kinda going on two tracks. We've got our wisdom, life track-
David: Yeah, yes
Seth: ... but also this, the, the, the bride/groom track, and we've just kinda started to explore Jesus-
David: As the, the groom
Seth: ... as the groom-
David: Okay
Seth: ... hoped for by-
David: Yes
Seth: ... anxious Israel in her exile.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah, and it's really fascinating as we think about that then, that, and I think we've said this, but I wanna make sure we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... hammer this home, is you do have... The way Jesus walks through the story of the song is just beautiful.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That He goes through this death, and, and, and almost like the woman on the night leading up to the consummation for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... His purpose for coming to Earth, He frets, He worries-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, you know, in a sense. Like, He cries up in the Garden of Gethsemane, like, "Let this cup pass from me."
Seth: Mm.
David: There's this worry. [chuckles]
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, I don't, I, I don't know if-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you can say Jesus worried, but He was in turmoil.
Seth: Are you saying Jesus is the, is the virgin in that sense, or I, I don't-
David: Oh-
Seth: ... groom worried over the fate of his virgin?
David: I understand.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I, I have trouble not seeing it both ways-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... because He, He went through a death, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and shed blood in order to bring life.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, it's through Christ that we are born again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so He is also the progenitor of life through blood. So in a way, he does inhabit that role of the woman as well in the song.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but yes, I think let, let's stay on your track, too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That so we are the, the woman-
Seth: In need of-
David: In need-
Seth: ... consolation and comfort
David: ... of consolation, because we've become broken-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... our innocence has been taken, and we wonder, "Will, will a husband find me beautiful again?"
Seth: Mm.
David: Is that where you're getting at?
Seth: Yeah, that's, that's the question. Yeah.
David: Yeah. Uh, yeah, so that, that just adds so much more beauty and reality and color to Ephesians 5, you know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or even the parable of the wedding feast, you know, where the husband-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, you know, calls the, the-
Seth: The
David: ... the young w- women to himself-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at the wedding feast. Uh, or also, like, i- in how Paul talks about our, our wedding with Jesus in Ephesians 5, that he sees us as spotless-
Seth: Mm
David: ... blameless, without stain or wrinkle.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm like, "Jesus, come on.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know what I've been through. [chuckles] You know I let the watchman-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, go a long time ago."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And I've not kept my garden. [chuckles]"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And yet you still call me beautiful, and holy, and without spot. Uh, you gush over me the way the husband-
Seth: And-
David: ... gushes over the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the woman in the song."
Seth: And Jesus, from the first moments of his ministry, is preparing for that wedding.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that- his first miracle is turning water-
David: The wedding at Cana
Seth: ... into wine.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And what is he doing? He's preparing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a wedding for the bride that is currently blemished.
David: Yes, and there's a reason why he turns water into wine in jars of ritual purification, because the, in this wedding, shame arises in a really strange way.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: Like, the, like, a wedding's not supposed to be a place of shame, but all of a sudden, a cultural shame sets into the wedding-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because the w- the wedding has run out of wine.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there's about to be this cultural scandal that would put the, the, the whole event-
Seth: Right
David: ... to shame, the whole union-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to shame. And so Jesus covers over the shame of the wedding-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... and brings honor, dignity, beauty-
Seth: Mm, mm
David: ... and people start gushing over how good the wine is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how good the wedding is because of this wine that Jesus brings. He purifies the wedding-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of shame.
Seth: Isn't, isn't that one of the compliments the lovers give each other, that they're like wine to one another?
David: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Your love is better than wine."
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, "Oh, your love's better than wine."
Seth: So Jesus is the groom-... who comes, prepares the wedding for his blemished bride so that-
David: He can cover her shame.
Seth: So that he can cover her shame, convince her of her loveliness-
David: Yes.
Seth: -purify her, and then bring her into Eden.
David: Yes.
Seth: Uh, which is the end of the revelation.
David: That's right.
Seth: He b- he opens the gates to Eden-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for all people. That's the end of the story, is the opening of the gates of Eden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And even the moment of the cross is described as an act of consummation.
David: Mm.
Seth: Ephesians 5:25, Paul speaking to husbands, but he says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and gave himself up for her, so that he might sanctify her and make her pure, uh, without spot or wrinkle-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or any blemish." Um, and then he goes on, and he says this in verse, um, 31, "Therefore," because of the way that Christ has acted towards the church, "a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the two will become one flesh-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the act of consummation. This mystery, the mystery of sex-
David: Sure
Seth: ... is profound, and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and the church." So there is something pretty profound here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the same way that the song represents the marriage of God's people in Israel. There is a way in which the song, because it's about the consummative act, is representative of Christ securing the marriage of his church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as well. And that just seems really profound-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that those things are all bundled together.
David: Yes.
Seth: 'Cause it's not something I would intuitively... It feels almost blasphemous to connect sex-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the act of Jesus's death and resurrection, like his sacrificing my place.
David: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying.
Seth: Oh, like, right, like-
David: Yeah, because they aren't related.
Seth: Right! [chuckles]
David: They aren't.
Seth: Yeah. [chuckles]
David: Otherwise, we're pagans, uh, 'cause that's how pagans would receive salvation or placate the gods, through sex.
Seth: Yes.
David: They would actually conjoin those two ideas.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: But here he's like, "This is a mystery."
Seth: Yes.
David: "It's a picture."
Seth: Yes.
David: "So it's a metaphor-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of Christ and his church." They're not the same thing.
Seth: Right. They're not.
David: And in having sex, you're not awakening the life that Jesus earned through-
Seth: No, no, no.
David: Like, that's-
Seth: It's the opposite.
David: That would be blasphemy.
Seth: It's the opposite.
David: It's the opposite.
Seth: Jesus's death and resurrection and his death for our purity is the hope to which sex points. Like-
David: I understand, yes.
Seth: Like s- wise sex is v- vulnerability met with love.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in Jesus's death and resurrection, we get that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... par excellence. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the vulnerability of our stained selves meeting the love of God in Jesus Christ dying for his bride.
David: Yeah. I think the other thing to just harp on there, too, is union.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is the two becoming one flesh. So that is all the way back in the Garden of Eden, so this will always resonate in the ear of a Jewish reader when they're-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... reading about a marriage ceremony and two-
Seth: Yes
David: ... people entering into a marriage covenant and having sex.
Seth: Yes.
David: The two are becoming one. Um, and here in, in the Gospel, we become one with Jesus. He prayed this-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, for us, that we would be one with him as he and the Father are one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That is marriage language, that we- he would be in us and manifest his-
Seth: Mm
David: ... his beauty in us.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, uh, one commentator I read talked about, um, how, yes, it prizes virginity and, uh, becoming a bride equally.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, and when it talks about... But when it, when it talks about becoming a bride and, and, and what that is doing in the song, it can almost sound like it's disparaging virginity, but it's not.
Seth: Mm.
David: So it holds them in tension, and here's why I'm bringing it up. Um, in, in virginity, a- as you enter into marriage, you're bringing in this isolation, that you've never known another-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... man in this way, that you've never, uh, been joined with someone in this way.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That I am, uh, well, I think the, the, the quote from the, the commentator was, "You are autonomous, but you're not free."
Seth: Mm.
David: And, and so, um... And he, he started talking about it kind of culturally, that we all have this deep longing to be known-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and loved-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to be fully seen and fully accepted.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: And in union-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... those two realities clash together.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, yes, you can stay cloistered off, and you can stay-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, uh, again, I'm not p- making virginity pejorative here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But you can stay a virgin, and you can just keep yourself away from union.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But without that joining, you-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you will not be fully known and fully loved in this picture.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So with Christ, it's like he wants you to put down your guard-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and actually let you know that he sees you, knows you fully.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like-
Seth: He knows all the blemishes.
David: He knows all the blemishes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he loves you fully. Um, and that's, that's-
Seth: Mm
David: ... pretty amazing. That, that union, uh, which also reminds me of this quest to get back into the garden, this quest to press into the presence of God. Um, when Jesus died on the cross, this mystical thing we're talking about, what occurred there, what happened at the, at the temple? The same thing that happened in the song. A veil is torn away. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... beaten and bloodied and took away my v- my veil in this co- co- consummating moment. And whenever Jesus dies in his consummating moment, and his blood is shed, the veil covering the temple is torn.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And union with God is possible again.
Seth: Mm.
David: And we can enter into the garden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, like, there's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so much collapsing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in on each other here.
Seth: Yeah, it makes me, like... I think I started this conversation, I was like, "Why on earth?"... ah, is a poem, a ser- series of poems about the honeymoon night-
David: Yeah.
Seth: -in our Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: And the more we think about it, it's like, how could it not be? [laughing]
David: Yeah, totally. [laughing]
Seth: Uh-
David: This- yeah, and this is why even, like, rabbis have said the case for canonicity for this song-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is unimpeachable. It's always been in the canon.
Seth: Every Jewish person has always considered this part of God's holy scripture.
David: And fought for it tooth and nail. Like, the quotes that rabbis have said about why it must be in the text are just as gushy as the song itself. Like, I think one was something like... I'm gonna mess up the quote, but it was something like, "All the days of the world are not worth the Song of Songs." And it's just like, it better be in there. And so just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... getting to your point, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... once we under- start to understand it rightly, not that we've done it perfectly-
Seth: Right
David: ... but even as we start to peek our head into this, it's like, how can this not be in our Bible?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's everything.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just huge.
Seth: Yeah, it's like the creation of the world is consummated with a marriage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The end of the world will be a marriage with our Savior. Jesus Christ comes as a groom to console his vulnerable bride, so it makes sense that you'd need some sort of thing like Song of Solomon-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Old Testament to round out, to give us this picture-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and to help us understand why marriage, and sex, and the relationship between a man and a woman is the way the world will flourish-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and it, it, it come into what God intends for it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, there's more. It's, it's cosmic.
David: It's cosmic.
Seth: And so I'm like, "Oh, okay." [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's cosmic, and then it's also very close.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it's also just about something that every single human person has to deal with-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what to do with my sexuality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it gives you a wise path to do that and to join the cosmic story God's been telling.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's pretty cool.
Seth: It's pretty cool.
David: That's the Song of Songs.
Seth: Man, this was awesome.
David: This was fun.
Seth: This was awesome. Thank you, David.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: Um, and thank you guys for listening. I hope you enjoyed our conversation through the Song of Songs, and we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [upbeat music]
