David: [upbeat music] I do not often default to viewing God as patient.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think he is as reactionary as I am [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is so wrong, but God is so patient, and he is long-suffering. He suffers with me for a long time.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he doesn't do it with a, "Come on. Ugh, get it right."
Seth: Right.
David: "Hurry up. Be better." He's like, "I love you. I died for that. I'm here for you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And I'm still patient. My patience has not worn out, David."
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are back in the New Testament.
Seth: Yes.
David: Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I realized as I was studying for this book, that most of the time that I've read First and Second Timothy, it's been to prove certain doctrinal points-
David: [laughs] Right
Seth: ... not understand a story that's happening, that's very live-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a time that actually existed.
David: Yeah, and like the struggle of a young pastor-
Seth: Right
David: ... and all this stuff. [laughs]
Seth: I've read First Timothy as like, uh, this is the proof of the inerrancy of scripture. All scripture is God-breathed.
David: Right. Here's the proof of, uh, church organization structure.
Seth: This is why you must have elders.
David: Right.
Seth: This is wh- you know, like that's why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's how I've approached Timothy, is like this collection of doctrines to be believed.
David: And if we've learned anything, that's always a great way to approach any part of scripture.
Seth: Of course. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Kidding.
Seth: Kidding. Um-
David: Yeah. Okay, so before we jump in, what-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's Timothy about? What are First and Second Timothy about?
Seth: Well-
David: Why should we care?
Seth: Well, what's really interesting about First and Second Timothy is they're written to Paul's protege.
David: Mm, that is interesting.
Seth: So the Apostle Paul has a protege.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A young pastor, a young apostolic delegate, who has been put in charge of a church in Ephesus, and he is profoundly discouraged, overwhelmed, and unsure of what to do in the leadership situations he's facing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: His church, maybe not uniquely, but like really, as I, as we've been reading it, just like has a very broken relationship with authority.
David: Mm.
Seth: A broken relationship authori- with God's authority and his word-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a broken relationship with human authority and how the church should be structured, and they even have a broken relationship with Paul as an a- apostolic authority.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then you have young Timothy coming in-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... who is younger than all the other leaders in this church.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They're looking down on him because he's young, and he's supposed to lead a group of people in a city he's never been in.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The issue of authority, a broken authority, is pretty live-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the discouragement of Timothy's pretty real. And on top of all that, you have this group of false teachers stoking all those divisions and encouraging people to like take advantage of the authority they do have-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or discount the authority that God has instated.
David: Okay. So for a lot of listeners, maybe they don't like the A word.
Seth: The A word. [laughs]
David: The, uh, the, uh, auth- auth- authority, I mean.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and wh- like why should they stick around and like wrestle through broken relationships with authority that Paul talks about? 'Cause it doesn't... That kind of sounds like, uh, a kind of an intense podcast, which it might be.
Seth: Oh. It might be. I mean, it, a broken relationship with authority is how Eden was broken.
David: Okay, there you go.
Seth: So like [laughs] I mean, and Paul will pick up on this in First Timothy 2. He goes all the way back to creation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in creation, there was a false teacher.
David: The snake.
Seth: The snake, just as there are false teachers in Ephesus too, where, where Timothy is pastoring at the time.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he teaches, the snake teaches Eve-
David: A false doctrine
Seth: ... a false doctrine, that she is her own authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and that she can decide right and wrong for herself. And that not only breaks her relationship with Adam and the world and with God, but like has implications for the rest of humanity.
David: Okay, so what's on the line, and why should people care? You put the whole world on the line. [laughs]
Seth: The whole world is on the line in false teaching in one sense, and like a broken relationship with authority.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you have a, a young guy, a young pastor, trying to institute authority when nobody respects the authority that he has.
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, [laughs] it's-
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I mean, I've been a, I mean, I, I keep thinking about myself. I was a pastor for, you know-
David: Like 10 years
Seth: ... yeah, over a decade.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I was frequently the youngest guy in the room.
David: Right.
Seth: Or being put in situations where you're just out of your depth. What authority do I have to speak to somebody about who and who they're not sleeping with? What authority do I have-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to talk to this group of f- 45-year-olds about how I think we should deal with this one s- situation? But if what Timothy says is true, or what Paul says to Timothy is true, like there is a deposit of faith given to people who are proclaiming the word of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that they must bring to bear as they encounter a broken world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Okay. So that's a lot on the line.
Seth: A lot on the line.
David: What then is, what's going on in this time period? Like, is this toward d- probably the end of Paul's life?
Seth: Yeah, that seems to be the, the, the consensus among scholars, that Second Timothy was the last letter that Paul ever wrote-
David: Mm
Seth: ... during his final Roman imprisonment. Um, and it's, Second Timothy in particular is Paul knowing he's about to die and handing over the authority to continue the mission of the church into Timothy's hands.
David: Okay. So I mean, even the purpose of the letter is around authority.
Seth: It is around authority.
David: Because he as the-Church planter and the apostle of this church has had authority so far to lead this church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and speak into what heresies might arise or whatever, but now he's bestowing that authority onto a young man named Timothy.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that very young man is having his own authority questioned.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's all on the line.
David: All right.
Seth: So we have-
David: So how does, how does a leader like Paul-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... hand over the reins to probably the church he spent the most time at?
Seth: That's right, yeah.
David: That's a, I mean, that's a big deal.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Especially if you're listening and you have any kind of church leadership, you know, right now or in your past, you could probably resonate with this a lot. [laughs]
Seth: Yes. Yes.
David: Okay, so that's kind of the... That's where Paul is probably, that's what's going on with Timothy, um, but what's going on at the church in Ephesus where Timothy is?
Seth: Well, the, the easiest way to say it is that they are under attack from a group of false teachers. But what's interesting about these false teachers, and probably most false teachers in Paul's world, is that they were former leaders within the church.
David: Okay, so these aren't, like, external threats coming in and lobbing attacks and, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ridiculing the church. These are, like, people that everybody probably likes, respects, listens to, are-
Seth: Previous elders.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Maybe not even seeing them as, like, false teachers but, "This is our church. This is where we go."
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, one of the men that is named as a false teacher and who's already been excommunicated from the church-
David: Okay
Seth: ... is named Alexander.
David: Oh, the, is he the coppersmith?
Seth: He's the coppersmith.
David: So is he a silversmith or a coppersmith?
Seth: Coppersmith.
David: Coppersmith.
Seth: And what's interesting is the way that Paul talks about him in 2 Timothy makes it sound like Alexander's the reason why he's imprisoned in Rome this final time. But what's even more interesting about Alexander is that if he's the same Alexander from the Book of Acts, Alexander in the Book of Acts is one of the first defenders of Paul and his ministry in Ephesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: He stands up in the Temple of Artemis and s- tries to defend Paul's right to talk about Jesus, and he's shouted down by the crowd. So-
David: Mm
Seth: ... potentially Alexander was one of the founders of the church at Ephesus-
David: Wow
Seth: ... grew it with Paul, uh, with Timothy, and then eventually abandoned the faith for some speculative doctrines-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which, and then ends up becoming an enemy of Paul.
David: Okay.
Seth: So [laughs]
David: All right, so you've got these, you've got th- you've got these false-
Seth: You have-
David: ... false teachers, some still in the church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... some who've already been excommunicated from the church, so there's probably this sliding scale of intensity of false doctrine.
Seth: And it's probably the case that the, like, people like Alexander or Hymenaeus who, who are led are still exercising authority in the church-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because that's the way it works.
David: Right.
Seth: These were, we loved these people. They helped start the church. They're not-
David: Right
Seth: ... l- no longer with us, but we go have coffee with them.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: We hang out with them, and they're probably getting some of their f- the people within the church are just probably still going to them for advice and then b- importing their false doctrines-
David: Mm
Seth: ... back inside Timothy's church in Ephesus. And this is probably most evident with a group of women. So we have s- evidence that there's some women, 1 Timothy 2, that are usurping Timothy's teaching role, talking over him in the sermon, and then also a s- either the same group of women or a different group of women are taking advantage of the widow care ministry-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... and stealing money from widows that need it to-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... because they technically are widows and can t- can take some of the money, so.
David: They have... Yeah, these widows, like, have, have husbands who have died-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but they still have families that are taking care of them, paying their ve- b- paying their bills, buying their food, putting them up in houses. Uh, they don't need anything.
Seth: Right, but they're-
David: But they are taking from the widows' m- like, uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... pool from w- women who are literally all alone.
Seth: Yeah, so there's some problems, and Paul seems to pin it, all of it, on the influence of these false teachers-
David: Mm
Seth: ... whoever they are.
David: Okay, so is now a good time to talk about what on earth are these false teachers teaching? Like, and I know it's, the answer's probably not one thing. It never is.
Seth: Right.
David: But is there a semblance of what they were doing that's, that makes you wanna go over to the coppersmith's house and talk about heresy over coffee? Like [laughs] what was, what was going on?
Seth: Well, it's really funny. Paul opens up 1 Timothy by, right away with talking about the false doctrine. Verse 3, "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine"-
David: Way to open a letter
Seth: ... "not to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which just promote speculation rather than stewardship from God that is by faith."
David: Mm.
Seth: So apparently myths and endless genealogies. Several scholars kind of point out there's probably some sort of weird teaching in the genealogies of Genesis. They have an alternate version of the creation story that's behind some of their false teaching.
David: Dang.
Seth: At one point in 2 Timothy, we're told that they deny, that the resurrection has already happened. As in, like, the final resurrection of believers has already happened.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Paul will go on to say that these same teachers misunderstand the law-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that instead of using it to point out people's disobedience, they'll use it as a way to excuse people's behavior and let them do whatever they wanna do, perhaps because of some corrupted version of the Genesis story, which was the lie of Satan, which was choose, do good and evil for yourself.
David: Just do whatever you want.
Seth: Um-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... or the fact that the resurrection's already happened could mean, like-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... God's power is already in you. The resurrection that was promised is already here. The fullness of God is available to you now. You don't need to appeal to the old laws of the Old Testament.
David: Right.
Seth: Y- do what you wanna do. Feel your way towards your own truth. And Paul multiple times says that that just creates dissension, division, babbling, endless speculation-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... evil. We have people taking advantage of widows. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the false teachers are preaching something that sounds good, but it end up dividing and destroying God's church.
David: Okay. So you've got, uh, some kind of weird alternate teaching from the Old Testament.Uh, that is leading to immoral living and a kind of laissez-faire attitude towards God's commandments.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Define good and evil for yourself. It's totally fine. Uh, maybe because of an over-realized eschatology, which is a fancy way of saying that like, "Hey, the new kingdom's here. Everything's cool. God's power's in you now. Just live however you want. You don't need to follow the old way to salvation 'cause full salvation has already come right now." So-
Seth: Yes
David: ... if you're not eating, drinking, and sleeping around, you're not enjoying life the way God intended.
Seth: Something like that.
David: Something like that.
Seth: Something like that. And it's hard to-
David: And it-
Seth: It's hard to know.
David: It's hard to know, and you wanna be careful in, in situations like this, and I'm talking generally, not to you, Seth. You're doing this. [laughs] Uh, we wanna be careful not to say that this heresy was one thing, or that it was really organized, or could've been put down in a very succinct way. There were cultural factors, there are religious factors. Like, there's syncretistic factors. You know, there's all these different things that kind of press together that make it hard for someone to even identify it as a false teaching, quote-unquote.
Seth: Right.
David: Because it's just, like, in the water. You know? It's just something that's being said, things that are-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... being taught, being practiced. It doesn't feel like this big, giant, menacing threat that y- you know, everybody sees and is choosing one side or the other.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just in the water.
Seth: Yeah, it's probably like, it's like today.
David: Totally.
Seth: It's like there are false teachers today, but it's kinda hard to know who they are and when exactly they're teaching false things. So sometimes they're saying-
David: Really good things
Seth: ... right things.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right things. And Paul will, will say multiple times throughout 1 Timothy that they have a form of godliness.
David: Mm-hmm. Pro- They look godly.
Seth: They look godly, or they're saying the right things, but the end result of what they're saying is destructive-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or evil.
David: Sounds good now, but give it 20 years.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, it's confusing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And people from within the church are spouting those things-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so people you trust, people you've listened to perhaps your whole childhood who, you know, like, are now saying something different now that they're no longer employed at the church they were previously. Oh, that's confusing.
David: Right. I mean, imagine Alexander, the coppersmith-
Seth: Right
David: ... be like, "This guy started the church. He was defending Paul. How could, how could he be on the wrong side now?"
Seth: Or maybe he's seen the evil in Paul, and he's preaching a better and more true gospel now because-
David: Right. If anybody's gonna know, it's Alexander
Seth: ... right, right, yeah.
David: He would know.
Seth: He's seen the dark side.
David: I mean, Paul's the one in prison.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He's seen the dark... Paul, if, if Paul was doing e- everything right, he wouldn't be in prison.
David: Right. He, yeah, if he was an upstanding citizen, it, it wouldn't end this way. Alexander's got a thriving business. You know? [laughs]
Seth: Like, right.
David: I mean, yeah.
Seth: That's why it's-
David: It's interesting
Seth: ... convincing and compelling.
David: Yeah, okay. Okay, I get that. So to this disheartened young pastor who's struggling with a group of people who are teaching wrong things and discounting his authority, what does Paul, during the last leg of his life, wanna focus on and tell him? And, like, and so everyone knows, we're kind of doing an overview here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of the situation-
Seth: That's fair
David: ... of 1 and 2 Timothy. Um, and so, like, what is the gist, if you can, or are there some themes throughout the, the two letters that really sum up Paul's encouragement and exhortation to Timothy?
Seth: Yeah. The, I mean, the, he tells us the reason why he wrote 1 Timothy in 1 Timothy.
David: Well, that's convenient for us.
Seth: [laughs] In 1 Timothy 3:14, uh, through, uh, 15. He says, "I hope to come to you soon, but I'm writing these things to you so that if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth." So in a context where everyone's, has a broken relationship with au- authority, is questioning the authority structures of the church, questioning the authority of Paul, wondering whether or not Alexander is the true authority-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Ephesus, Paul's writing to Timothy to teach God's church how to behave-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how to have a right relationship with authority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so that it can hold up the truth in a context of lies, and that's why he's writing.
David: Yeah. How to... I think what you said is worth repeating 'cause it does pop up a lot through the two letters, is how to hold up the truth in the context of lies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's a really good way to sum up-
Seth: Yes
David: ... Paul, what, what Paul's aiming at here. I think you could have that ringing in your ears-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and go read 1 and 2 Timothy pretty well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How do you hold up truth in the context of lies?
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think some of the things are like, oh, I, I could've guessed that one. But there's some twists and turns in Paul's-
Seth: [laughs] Right
David: ... um, exhortations, and I'm like, I don't think I would've figured that out on my own.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And I think, like, chapter one kind of starts me out there. Like, and he does it a lot, but there's a very gospel way that he wants Timothy to interact with these false teachers. You know, I would, I would think it was like, okay, how do you hold up truth in the context of lies? Smash all the lies, and be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... really loud with the truth.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: That's what I would expect. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Right, right, right.
David: And instead, he just, like, goes all in on, like, grace and all kinds of things.
Seth: Well, yeah, multiple times, Paul tells Timothy, "Don't get involved in these endless speculative arguments."
David: Right, all these quarrels.
Seth: D- don't get involved in the quarrels. Don't respond with quarreling with quarreling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, get out of that cycle. And, and instead, preach the gospel and estab- like, establish good authority structures within your church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and preach the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's kind of all the advice. [laughs]
David: That's so interesting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause you would think, like, yeah, it's, like, it's, we have such a reactionary culture today. You know, it's so easy to just be like, if I see something, you know, you see... I don't have a Facebook account, but I was like, you know, if I did-
Seth: Right
David: ... you see something on Facebook and it's, like, slandering the incarnation or something, I'd wanna hop on that thread and be like-
Seth: Right
David: ... "You're wrong for these nine reasons." [laughs]
Seth: Yes. History, the apostles-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... the church fathers, uh, yeah.
David: Yeah, and it's like-
Seth: Logic. [laughs]
David: Yeah, and it's like, instead, the, the right way to react is to faithfully, patiently preach the grace of Jesus in the scriptures.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's interesting.
Seth: Well, I mean, so that's the first point Paul makes-
David: Okay
Seth: ... is about the pa- what the...The posture that Timothy should have
David: Mm
Seth: ... is not a combative one, but a patient one.
David: Okay.
Seth: And I... This was kind of blew my mind as I was reading through it for the first time. So I mean one of the best verses in the whole Bible, 1 Timothy, uh, 1:15, here it is. "This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus has come into the world to save sinners." [laughs] Like this is the good news-
David: That's the gospel
Seth: ... of the gospel. Um, and then Paul says, "Of whom I am the foremost."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I am the greatest sinner." So this comes off the heels of him trying to explain to Timothy how the false teachers are getting the Old Testament wrong. They keep saying the Old Testament isn't about proving his, whose disobedience, but proving something else, and all the false teachers, apostles, are now living immoral lifestyles. But he says the purpose of the Old Testament was to reveal disobedience, but also to point a hope of somebody who would save you from your sin.
David: Right.
Seth: That's why the Old Testament has a third of its laws about atoning for your sin, the way to deal with your sin, because it's pointing to the Messiah Jesus who would take away the sins on his own.
David: Yeah. He, yeah, he says there, and I, we'll get into this more, but I just can't help but dig into it for just for a second, is like, yeah, Chapter 1 of 1 Timothy, 8 through 11, and he's talking about what's the purpose of the law, and you've just said it. It's to reveal sin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And like you might be like, "Why is that so important?" You know?
Seth: Right.
David: I was on a plane two days ago with a woman named Barbara.
Seth: Barbara.
David: And she started talking to me, and we started talking about Spoken Gospel, and she grew up Christian, but deconstructed, and now she just... She says, "Now I just try to, you know, treat people the way I wanna be treated and, you know, that's it 'cause basically all religions are the same." And we talked about that and everything.
Seth: Okay.
David: And, uh, once I got her to see that Christianity wasn't like all the other religions, that it made really unique truth claims, and she could see that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... really, really easily, she, uh, she couldn't hear the gospel, and she didn't wanna hear the gospel because she didn't think she needed it.
Seth: Mm.
David: She was just like, "I don't know. I don't think I'm any worse than anybody else. I don't, I don't think-
Seth: Right. Right
David: ... I need saving."
Seth: Right.
David: And I just told her, I was like, "The reason I'm a Christian is 'cause I know I need saving."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I'm pretty messed up."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Like I know I have a sickness that needs a cure." And Paul, in, in, in here, his exhortation to Timothy, he's saying-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "The grace of Jesus can cure the worst disease."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And I had it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I had the worst form of terminal cancer."
Seth: Right.
David: "And Jesus cured it."
Seth: Yes. It... So like for... So on one level, Paul's saying the whole history of the Hebrew people has been one of disobedience, and God's people have been disobeying for centuries.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But God-
David: Nothing new. [laughs]
Seth: Nothing new.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But God made a way for them to be saved-
David: Mm
Seth: ... through, like to, to atone for their sins through sacrifices, and now we have a new way to atone, the, the new and better way to atone for our sins in Jesus Christ. He came-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to save sinners once and finally.
David: Right.
Seth: Fully and finally. And then he says, "And the re- the way that you should interact with these false teachers who are teaching people to do the same thing that God's people have done for centuries in disobeying is by remembering who, the type of person I was."
David: Right.
Seth: Paul too was a false teacher.
David: Right. He's like, "You wanna know how to deal with blasphemers? How did Jesus deal with me?"
Seth: Right.
David: "I was a false teacher."
Seth: I-
David: "What did he do with me?"
Seth: He saved me.
David: He saved me through patience.
Seth: He, he... He saved me through patience. This is, "But I received mercy for this reason,"
David: Wow
Seth: "... that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience-"
David: Oh
Seth: "... as an example to, to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." So I think this is what blew my mind is that Paul understands the message of Jesus to be fundamentally on one level about God's patience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The gospel is a gospel of patience.
David: Right. I mean, when God describes himself in the longest self-description that he gives of himself-
Seth: The first self-description-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the-
David: In-
Seth: Exodus 34
David: ... Exodus 34, he says, "The Lord, the Lord, slow to anger" [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and abounding in steadfast, like covenant, long suffering love.
Seth: Yeah. And-
David: He's patient
Seth: ... and that patience is what sent us Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's that same patience I think that the false teachers are probably playing with, which is interesting. So-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if you remember in 2 Peter, the book of 2 Peter-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... um, there's another group of false teachers, and they're, they actually s- "Well, why isn't Jesus coming to judge?"
David: Right. If-
Seth: "If Jesus isn't coming to judge the world, it must not matter-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what we do."
David: Right. It's like, "He would've come by now."
Seth: Right.
David: "Look how bad the world is. If Jesus was coming to judge it, he would've done it by now, so nothing we do must matter."
Seth: And then Peter's response is, "No, that God's patience is salvation."
David: Right. "The reason he hasn't come back yet is to give you a chance, dummy." [laughs]
Seth: And then what's even crazier is that the next verse is the verse where he says, "Now, Paul says the same thing, and Paul writes things that are hard to understand." So Peter has heard Paul talk multiple times about the gospel and about the patience of Jesus as the way in which the gospel is primarily-
David: Mm
Seth: ... firstly as a part of, uh, the way that it's expressed, and he says, "That's what's hard to understand, and that's what people twist to their own advantage."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "God is patient, so do what you want." People misunderstand what Paul is saying. It's difficult to understand that God is patient.
David: Ah, I see.
Seth: So they're twisting it to their own, to their own ends-
David: Ah
Seth: ... and disobeying God's command 'cause it must not matter. But no, God's patience is meant to lead us towards repentance-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... turning away from those things and living as God always intended us to live.
David: I see. So in the same... It, it's another one of those possibly, like twisted Pauline teachings-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like one of which would be like, "Don't be circumcised. You don't have to be circumcised to be saved." And so people are like, "Oh, great."We throw that law out, we throw every law out, we can live however we want.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "No, I'm not giving you libertinism."
Seth: Yeah, do whatever you want.
David: "Do whatever you want. I was just saying, like, Jesus fulfilled that command. Calm down." [laughs] You know? It's like now in the same way he's like, "Man, did you know that the reason why there wasn't wrath here, here, here, here, here, the reason why Jesus didn't come back immediately after he ascended into heaven is 'cause he's being patient with you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And people are like, "Oh, cool. So he's gonna be patient with me indefinitely?" And it's like, "No, you're, you're taking this the wrong way. You're twisting Paul's teaching."
Seth: I wonder if this is, like, implied here. "The law is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the disobedient." I wonder if what he really means to imply there, like the law is meant to imply judgment-
David: Right
Seth: ... but for evil.
David: Oh.
Seth: And that's what these false teachers are denying. The law is meant to show you that lawlessness, disobedience, immorality must be judged, but you're-
David: So, so why hasn't it yet?
Seth: So why hasn't it yet-
David: Right
Seth: ... is the false teacher's point.
David: Right.
Seth: So it must mean that d- God doesn't care about it.
David: Right.
Seth: But no, the point is that God does judge immorality-
David: Right
Seth: ... and he judged it in an animal, in, in your place-
David: Right, or-
Seth: ... in Old Testament Israel.
David: And then in Jesus perfectly.
Seth: And then in Jesus, so no, God does this.
David: Yep.
Seth: So don't minimize your sin. Don't minimize your disobedience.
David: Maximize God's patience.
Seth: Maximize God's patience. Maximize God's substitution on your behalf-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... providing you a way out in Jesus.
David: Goodness.
Seth: That's the gospel. God is patient with you-
David: Ugh
Seth: ... and so patient and long-suffering that he would rather die himself. He will die himself to save you from the thing that you won't admit you're doing wrong.
David: Mm.
Seth: You know what I like. [laughs]
David: Yeah, totally. Okay, two things I wanna say to that. One is just can we all just take a second-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and just be like, "God's patient with me"? That's just really good news.
Seth: Yes.
David: I do not often default to viewing God as patient.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think he is as reactionary as I am [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is so wrong, but God is so patient, and he is long-suffering. He suffers with me for a long time. And he doesn't do it with a, "Come on. Ugh. Get it right."
Seth: Right.
David: "Hurry up. Be better." He's like, "I love you. I died for that. I'm here for you, and I'm still patient. My patience has not worn out, David."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, oh, that's just such good news.
Seth: It's also an encouragement for people who are frustrated with the culture.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's like people who... Like I, I mean, I'm frustrated by the stuff I see around me.
David: Right.
Seth: Why isn't God coming back soon? The world's going to hell in a handbasket.
David: Sure. Yeah.
Seth: Like, like that type of... Like, I feel the weight of that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I want Jesus to come back sooner. I'm... Why hasn't Go- like, I feel the need to take things into my own hand. I feel the injustice that God hasn't returned sooner. Or maybe I should remember that what is happening in the world around me, the reason that Jesus isn't coming back, the reason why sin is increasing around me is so that God's mercy might increase as well.
David: Right, is so that he can show off how patient he is.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's patience is kindness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I wanna interpret God's patience as a, as an injustice-
David: Right
Seth: ... or as a wrong.
David: Why did he choose Paul to show off how patient he was?
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what Paul says here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So-
Seth: 'Cause yeah, yeah
David: ... amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the other thing to kind of reground ourselves in Timothy's world-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is what a strange, unforeseen logical progression to go from, "Hey, I urge you to remain in Ephesus to fight against these false teachers and maintain the doctrine that you chose. Now let me tell you a story about patience."
Seth: Mm.
David: He's like, "Wait, what? Oh, wait. I thought you were gonna like tell me to go to war," and it's like, "No, I want you to, to take all the blasphemers, all the people who are persecuting you, all the people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who were like me back whenever I was persecuting Christians, and do to them what Jesus did to me."
Seth: Be patient with them.
David: "Be patient with them. Show them bursting-over-the-banks kinds of grace."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like what a strange way to [laughs] open up... Not a strange way, a very gospel way, but, you know, strange to the world. Um, I'm just really blown away by that.
Seth: In 2 Timothy, um, Paul picks up on this again. He says, "As the Lord's servant, um, you must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to everyone, teaching and patiently enduring evil-
David: Mm
Seth: ... correcting your opponents with gentleness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will." Paul, like, imagines, like, Timothy's... If Timothy reflects on the fact that God has been patient since the beginning of time with his disobedient people, if Timothy reflects on the patience that God showed Paul in his own conversion-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that should reflect his attitude towards the evil and false teaching he sees in his own church, that will enable him to respond with gentleness, prayerfully, and in hope that the false teaching he sees around him is not the inevitable end of a long road of cultural decline-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but actually the way in which God's mercy is most powerfully shown and more people come to know him.
David: Yeah. Man. [gentle music] Okay, so we've talked about how Paul's advice to Timothy is the gospel of patience, that just as Jesus was patient with them when they were sinners, blasphemers, persecutors, they should be patient with these false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, not, not like letting them say whatever they want, but teaching them with gentleness and patience so that they might come to repentance.
Seth: Yeah, hoping that the God who's always been patient to save sinners will do, be so again to these people.
David: Right. And so now let's go back to what we talked about at the beginning, which is this broken relationship with authority, the-
Seth: The-
David: ... as we called it earlier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the A word.
Seth: The A word.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: What, yeah, what's going on there, and, like, what would you... w- how would you sum up Paul's advice to, to Timothy with that?
Seth: Well, what's interest- so we have a lot of different ways that-Broken authority is being manifest. I think we listed some of them already.
David: Yeah, you did. Yeah.
Seth: But, like, one, we have the false teachers misinterpreting God's law and disregarding God's moral commands. Like-
David: So broken relationship with the Bible.
Seth: With the Bible, yeah. We have men who are angry with their governments in 1 Timothy 2.
David: Broken relationship with societal authority.
Seth: We have women having a broken relationship with the, the church's authority, particularly as it relates to Timothy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And, uh, we have, uh, elders who need to be corrected by Timothy, perhaps with something to do with drinking or alcohol, because right after that, Paul also tells Timothy to keep drinking alcohol, put some wine for his stomach, so-
David: Right
Seth: ... maybe they're abusing alcohol, broken relationship with their own authority and their res- their, their example-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they're supposed to give to the c- congregation. Then we have s- Christian slaves who are trying to foment a rebellion against their Christian masters.
David: Right.
Seth: And Paul says rebellion shouldn't be the way that Christians relate to one another, regardless of their social position.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you have a broken relationship with authority on both sides there.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then we also have just the general sense that the church in Ephesus doesn't trust Timothy and doesn't trust Paul's leadership anymore.
David: Oh, so broken relationship with the l- l- founding or lead pastors.
Seth: Yeah. And I think this is probably most clear in 2 Timothy.
David: Okay.
Seth: So if we go to 2 Timothy real quick, in 2 Timothy chapters two and three, Paul is going to compare Timothy to Moses two different times.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So one, he's gonna talk about Jannes and Jambres, who were the two magicians back in Egypt-
David: Right
Seth: ... who-
David: Who were trying to replicate all the miracles.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: But were pro- could not ultimately replicate Moses' miracles because they were from God.
David: Right.
Seth: So he says, like, "This is like your relationship with false teachers. They can do some things, but the, ultimately, the, the power in them is not there."
David: They're able to change water to blood-
Seth: Yes
David: ... through manipulating the water. But was it f-
Seth: It's the flies
David: ... the flies.
Seth: It's the flies.
David: They can't create life out of nothing.
Seth: Out of the dust of the ground.
David: Yeah. Eventually-
Seth: Only God does that.
David: Yeah. Eventually, the false teachers are found out.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then again here in 2 Timothy, he... If you don't know your Old Testament, you're gonna miss this allusion, like I did-
David: You-
Seth: ... a couple different times.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: But it's, he says this: "God's firm foundation stands," even in the context of these false teachings, "bearing this seal, 'The Lord knows who are His.'" That's a quote from the Book of Numbers. In the Book of Numbers in chapter 16, Moses is being confronted, Moses and Aaron, actually-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... are being confronted by a rebellion of their fellow elders and leaders of the congregation.
David: The other, the other clans of priests.
Seth: Yeah. So here's what... Let me just read to you a little bit of what it says here. "Korah, son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites all rose up against Moses. And with them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council."
David: Mm.
Seth: So this already sounds very s-
David: A lot like Timothy's situation.
Seth: Right. You have-
David: Alexander the coppersmith.
Seth: Right. You have some prominent leaders, and then a whole bunch of other leader- people within the church following their example. "They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, 'You have gone too far.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: "The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves up above the Lord's assembly?"
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: We're all, like, God's people. Why are you-
Seth: Right
David: ... what gives you the right to lead?
Seth: That's what... That's exactly right. That's-
David: They have a broken relationship with authority.
Seth: With authority. So I was like, okay, that's really interesting. They're presuming upon their authority in the same way that they're holiness, the same way it seems as if the false teachers in Timothy's day are presuming upon their holiness, presuming they can lead however they desire, have whatever authority they desire, act however they desire, and then say Timothy and Paul are wrong, they have gone too far. "And when Moses heard this," verse four, "he fell to the ground. And then he said to Korah and all his followers, 'In the morning, the Lord will show who belongs to Him and who is holy.'"
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's the verses quoted right here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, the Lord knows that those who are His. So it's interesting that Paul understands the primary metaphor for Timothy to understand what he's experiencing is something that actually Moses already went through.
David: Mm.
Seth: A problem with Moses' authority to lead a nation and the apostolic authority given to Timothy.
David: Yeah. And what happens then in the story, right, is that where the staff buds, is that next? Or is it the censor bowls?
Seth: It's the censers and the-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and the fire that comes down out of heaven. Yeah.
David: Right. And so, like, God shows through these signs and through these kind of external, undeniable, miraculous [laughs] workings that He has chosen Moses and Aaron and not Korah or these other clans or people, um, God knows who are His. And Paul's gonna say the same thing to Timothy. He's gonna say, "Remember when I laid hands on you?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And you received a gift and a calling from God that wasn't man-made, that wasn't made up, that can't be taken away from you. Fan that into flame." [laughs]
Seth: The censers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: The flame. You know. Uh, and it's like the same thing that happened to Moses-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and to Aaron has happened to you, Timothy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God knows you, He's chosen you, set you apart, therefore, lead like it.
Seth: Yeah. And what's also interesting, Paul seems to understand too that the presence of false authority, people who challenge authority, is proof of godly authority. [laughs] Like, you see, Paul-
David: What do you... Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Seth: Paul says that just, like, just like God did in Numbers, God has, like, sealed and marked and knows the, those that are truly His. And false teachers actually reveal those who truly call on God's name, and meaning that when you have a lie that produces wrong results, a hatred of authority, whether of God's or human authority, and then you have true teaching that leads to love and unity in the body of Christ-The presence of false teaching shows you that much more clearly the goodness of God's teaching, of, of-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God's authority. Does that-
David: 'Cause like the, like the proof is in the pudding.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. Where it's like i- in, in Aaron's case and Korah's case, it was very dramatic, right? It was-
Seth: Super dramatic
David: ... it was, you know, a, a, a, the fire comes and, and shows that, uh, Aaron is safe and chosen, but it consumes, um, all of Korah's followers. The ground-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... opens up and swallows them, and all this crazy stuff. Very clearly, the false teachers are found out and the right teachers are proven correct. Um, but you're saying that false teachers will be found out by their way of life.
Seth: That's right.
David: Um, same for truth- true teachers, that by the way they live, by the productivity of their teaching-
Seth: By what the disciples do based on their teaching.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That true teachers will be found out to be true-
Seth: Mm
David: ... false teachers will be found out to be false.
Seth: And the encouragement to Timothy there is that in the same way that Korah's teaching and rebellion ended in his destruction-
David: Right
Seth: ... so will these false teachers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: False teaching can't help but destroy itself because, as Paul says multiple times, it causes divisions. It goes on and on in endless quarreling. It's going on in speculative arguments. People who are constantly going on about conspiracies, who are divided among themselves and can't stop talking over each other, aren't gonna last long as a movement. [laughs] Like just like-
David: Yeah, totally
Seth: ... even on just a physical level, but more, even more so on a spiritual level, if you're not teaching God's word, that will fail.
David: Right.
Seth: But what, how does Paul talk about God's word in Timothy 2? As God breathed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like having the very life and spirit of God in it that is capable of equipping h- God's people for all the good works they're supposed to do-
David: Right
Seth: ... and living the life they're supposed to live.
David: It's like the Sermon on the Mount. It's like, uh, the house built on the rock or the sand. You build your house on the rock, it's gonna stay and prove that it was built in the right place, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: If not, it's gonna sweep away. I think that's a good thing to bring up with the whole Korah thing, and like what was Paul's exhortation to Timothy was like, "Hey, stay faithful, endure, be steadfast, preach with patience, the gospel, love, endurance, and it will be f- you will be seen by your fruit."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? But the other side is also true that... And Korah died, you know? [laughs] Like he was-
Seth: That's right
David: ... judged by God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he, I think Paul even sides with this as part of the good news that he's trying to extend to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:14. He brings up this guy we've talked about, Alexander the coppersmith, and he says that, "He did me great harm-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but the Lord will repay him according to his deeds." Like, he knows that God affirms true teachers and judges false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's part of his encouragement to this young pastor. Okay, so then my question is: What is the gospel there for Timothy, for us, in, uh, in, like, fixing our relationships with authority structures? Like, what's the good news there for us? Uh, not just like, oh, the right will win out and the false will be found out. That's, that's good life advice, [laughs] and I think-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, it's, the good news is Jesus will affirm those who are His and cast out those who aren't, and okay, I get that. Is there something else?
Seth: Yeah. Like, it's good news that power isn't the way of Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, it's, it's good news that exerting our will over the will of God is not the way of Jesus. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way of Jesus means that the powerless, the prayerful, the humble are the ones that are raised up.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And those that try to teach over other people, exert their authority on their own, um, try to reinterpret God's law to benefit their own-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... sense of pride or their own sense of right and wrong are attempting a power play that [sighs]
David: Can't win
Seth: ... that can't, that can't win.
David: Right.
Seth: And benefits only the most powerful.
David: Right.
Seth: The tr- like, the, that's the, that's part of the problem with false teaching that denies God's authority, is that it replaces their own authority for God's authority and means only the most powerful-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... can have the best life.
David: Right.
Seth: But the good news of the gospel is that it's the powerless, the weak, the prayerful, the humble are those that rise from the dead-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and inherit an imperishable church-
David: Right
Seth: ... and a family of God.
David: Yeah. Let me say that two different ways.
Seth: Yes.
David: In, in one sense what you're saying is in, um, in man's kingdom, uh, where we grab power, the, the single women who have all their bills paid get to steal the money from the women who actually need it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
David: The, the faulty widows get the money.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, in the Kingdom of God, the women who actually need the money get the money. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: They get the help, the people who actually need the help.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, because it's not all about who has the power.
Seth: Right.
David: It's about who needs, and you know. The other thing I was thinking about with the story of Moses, um, and Aaron and Korah is it's not, I think you were saying this, it's not the man who is able to foment a rebellion, get a huge following of respected members of the community, and stand up to the powers that be and go for a power grab. Those aren't the ones who win.
Seth: No.
David: Right? Korah didn't win, and his-
Seth: Right
David: ... giant band of really influential followers, he didn't win. Who won? The one man, Moses, who cried on the ground.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He won.
Seth: And 2 Timothy 1:4 tells us that Timothy-
David: Was crying
Seth: ... was crying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Timothy needs-
David: Needs Moses. [laughs]
Seth: ... is, he needs this good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because he is-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the weak man reduced to nothing but prayers, surrounded by people who want to take over his position of power, don't think he's qualified, and don't agree with the way that God said the church should be structured.
David: Right.
Seth: And Paul, uh, Timothy's crying on the ground along with Moses, asking for vindication and power from on high.
David: Right.
Seth: And Paul is...Promising him it, that it's on the way.
David: And we know this is true because of the gospel itself.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? Because you had, um, a crowd of influential people coming up against Jesus. They had the weapons. They had the political backing. They had the religious backing. I'm talking about, like, the arrest in Gethsemane.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yep.
David: Right? They came up to Jesus with sticks and clubs and weapons, and they had all the w-
Seth: Seal of approval from Pilate-
David: Right, all the warrants
Seth: ... all the high priests.
David: They had all the warrants to seize and, and-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, arrest, everything they needed to, and what did Jesus do? He wept in the garden, [laughs] right?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: He cried. He went to the cross silent. He d- he did no power grabs. Any chance in his ministry that people tried to give him an opportunity to take the throne and use his power, Satan tried to do it three times.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: He said no. It's like Jesus did not do a power grab. Instead he wept-
Seth: Mm
David: ... he loved, he was patient-
Seth: Mm. Mm
David: ... and he died.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's how he rose and ascended, because God knew who was his, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That was the, that was the firm foundation. The Lord knows w- those who are his. That's the Numbers quote.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So, yeah, I mean, that's the gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is that Jesus saves us and ascends to all authority, not by a power grab-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but by patient, loving obedience.
Seth: Like, think of some of the elements of Jesus' story. Jesus prays for the Romans that crucified him-
David: Right
Seth: ... and he raises from the dead.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus becomes a slave, according to Philippians, now he rules the universe. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, God undid death through humility and prayer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as the Church, God's people, men and women who trust Jesus, imitate that humility, continue to submit to God's word, the same thing will be true of us.
David: Right.
Seth: We will reign forever with Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We might be slaves now.
David: Right.
Seth: But we will be sit on thrones forever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We might live a life that's difficult now, but we will have the inheritance of God forever. Why? Not because we're powerful, but because we admit humbly that Jesus has everything we need.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay. As we, as we kinda-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... wind down, I'm like, I've, I've like two questions.
Seth: Okay.
David: One is, what warning do you think First and Second Timothy give to us today? And two, what encouragement does it have for the discouraged people inside of these broken systems? So, like, warning and encouragement.
Seth: I mean, I don't think the warning's all that different than the one that's implicit-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in Paul. It's like there are people who have been part of churches for a long time, who are no longer part of those churches or who have left the faith entirely.
David: Right.
Seth: And they are teaching us that there's alternate ways to structure the people of God, there's alternate commands to obey, and they're discounting the authority within scripture and with- w- in the authority of the Church. Some of their critiques are right, as I'm sure some of the critiques of, of Alexander were probably right.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You know? So the warning is what's happening right now isn't different from what happened 2,000 years ago.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's not different from what happened at the Garden of Eden, and we would be foolish to trust voices that are telling us to mistrust a Bible that is God's living word and has lasted-
David: Right
Seth: ... for thousands of years and actually has the power to save us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, ultimately, God's word saved us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus saved us. The proclamation of the word saved us from our sin. And whatever problems that might arise, it's not a problem with the Bible. [laughs]
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: It's not... You know, it's like, it's not a problem with what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Jesus has done.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It can be the fault of bad leaders or-
David: Yes
Seth: ... people acting in bad faith, which Paul's criticizing.
David: Right.
Seth: These greedy people who are preaching the gospel for their own benefit.
David: Yeah. I-
Seth: I think the w- I just th- I think the warning is, like, don't lose trust in the word of God that saved us.
David: Right, which is happening a, a lot right now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. It's like, yes, there have been bad leaders and bad churches and false teachers and people living opposite to what the Bible has commanded.
Seth: While pretending they do so.
David: With a form of godliness.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: But those are actually, Paul's actually calling those the false teachers.
David: Right. He's like, that should make us want to trust the word all the more.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Like, yeah.
Seth: 'Cause that's the thing that withstands, that's the thing that, that resists power grabs. That's the thing-
David: Right
Seth: ... that, like-
David: If you're tired of the Church falling apart, the solution is not to run away and r- and leave the Church. The w- the point is to go and stand on the word of God that won't fall apart.
Seth: The solution isn't, don't get lost in the, the, the squabbles. Don't-
David: Yeah, all the quarrels and the-
Seth: ... get lost in the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... speculation. Don't get lost in all the, the debates about the genealogies and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the creation story. Like-
David: There's a ton of that
Seth: ... there's a ton of that. Just s- can we stand true on the fact that the Bible is meant to just show us that we need a, need a savior-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and has provided [laughs] for us in Jesus.
David: Yeah, that's good.
Seth: Um, so I think that's the warning-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and also the encouragement at the same time.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: But, like, that's the best I can do in this moment.
David: On the spot.
Seth: On the spot.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Do you have another answer to that?
David: Um, I was just thinking, as we were talking about the gospel and, like, Paul's encouragement to Timothy to treat the false teachers the way that they were treated by Jesus. And, um, you know, we just reflecting on the gospel, I was like, man, I think a warning that is coming to my mind is to test false teaching against the gospel itself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That any false teaching that favors the power grabbers or marginalizes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the poor, you know, like, that is usually not gonna be the right teaching. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know. Um, and so I, I would just look around and see if, if-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's only the rich benefiting, uh, you probably don't quite have something right.
Seth: Yeah. And if, if your reaction to false teaching isn't as patient as Jesus-
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, like, that's also an indication you might be listening to someone not preaching the true gospel.
David: Right.
Seth: If there's only impatience, anger, and fear-
David: That's very good. Yeah
Seth: ... that's not the, the posture the gospel tells you inhabit, to inhabit.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that probably is a pretty... I mean, that, I feel that one pretty strongly. Like-
David: Yes, definitely
Seth: ... impatience and fear-
David: Yep
Seth: ... probably the, the dominating emotions as I just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... hear about the state of the church, the state of the world, impatience and fear.
David: Yeah, I mean, those, if that is at all what was happening in Timothy's time, we are living it in spades right now.
Seth: Right. Right.
David: It's like we have reactivity to scruples.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, we just have the smallest little blog post or Twitter post just sets off a firestorm, right, in the church.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: The tiniest little thing.
Seth: Yeah. All the time.
David: That, like, should not matter. It happens every single day, and it is just-
Seth: It's why I got off Instagram-
David: Right
Seth: ... Facebook.
David: Totally.
Seth: Like, it's why I don't engage on social media-
David: Right
Seth: ... because of that. Yeah.
David: Because of that. And it's like that is discrediting the church. It's sidetracking us from the gospel, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm. And it doesn't-
David: It is not, it doesn't reflect the patience of Jesus, is what I think-
Seth: No
David: ... you were gonna say.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, oh, that's it. I mean, that's the warning and the encouragement. [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Is watch out for that, just reactivity over nonsense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And just love people the way Jesus loved them. And I'm talking about the people who don't deserve it.
Seth: Right.
David: Right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: I'm talking about the guy-
Seth: The, the very same people tweeting the thing that's getting you angry.
David: That's the person-
Seth: Those are the pe-
David: ... that you show patience to.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: I mean, it's the guy who was literally hunting down and murdering Christians.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Paul.
Seth: Paul.
David: That's who Jesus was patient with.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? So do you think you could be patient with somebody who just, like, had one little verse interpreted differently than you?
Seth: [laughs]
David: You think?
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, I mean, I'm the chief of sinners with this-
Seth: Mm
David: ... warning here. [laughs] You know? Like, I can be very reactive, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whenever somebody says something I don't agree with, I wanna hop all over it, and I just wanna, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... say, "No, that's actually not true 'cause of this, this, this, and this. You need to straighten up." Like, I can be the worst at that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The absolute worst. And I think the good news to me is, like, Jesus is patient with me when I'm impatient with others, even. You know? [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, I just need to meditate on His patience-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... His patience toward me, even whenever I am doing the opposite to others, and just let that change my heart.
Seth: Yeah. Well, I think that's all we have for the introduction-
David: Okay
Seth: ... for the book of 1 Timothy.
David: Okay. So, uh, we're gonna go into the book after this. Yeah?
Seth: Yeah. We'll start next week in Timothy chapter 1, which we'll probably maybe go over a lot of this patience stuff, or maybe we'll just jump straight into Tim- Timothy chapter 2-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and go into men, women, and leadership, [laughs] and elders.
David: Yeah, all the fun stuff.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] All the fun stuff. [laughs]
David: Well, great. Okay.
Seth: Uh-
David: Well, thank you guys so much for joining us, uh, for today's talk. I'm really excited to go through-
Seth: Our talk.
David: Our talk.
Seth: Our chat.
David: Our chat.
Seth: Our chat.
David: This is our little chat. So, uh, yeah, and we'll, we'll go through the rest of 1 and 2 Timothy chapter by chapter. Really excited about that. Hope you guys will join us, and we'll see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
