David: [upbeat music] [pages flutter] Every church is full of death, but because Jesus is the head of the church, he will bring life out of it.
Seth: Yes. And as godly men and women of character embody deacon-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and elder roles, that new life trickles down-
David: Right
Seth: ... as they mirror Christ in, in themselves.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. It's wonderful to have you. We are continuing in part two of our look at 1 Timothy chapters two and three, and Seth has a crazy look in his eyes.
Seth: [laughs] I-
David: He, he-
Seth: You, you can see it-
David: He wants-
Seth: ... from across the room
David: ... I think he has something he wants to throw me off with here.
Seth: Yeah. We ended last week talking about, uh, the women in Ephesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who were presumably false teaching, and we've talked mainly about all the prohibitions about women and men teaching as a, as a polemic, right?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Paul is bringing all this up to Timothy because the women and men who were false teaching had all this stuff in their system, and they were making it come out in their gatherings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and he wanted to correct it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we kinda talked about everything Paul's talking about here is something the false teachers did wrong or these ostentatious women-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... with their dress were getting wrong. They were-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... speaking over Timothy. They were doing something.
David: It's a total polemic, yeah.
Seth: Right. And then Paul appeals to the creation story because he's saying, "You're repeating what happened in the Garden of Eden."
David: Right.
Seth: "Don't do that, guys."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You know how, how it went. It went bad."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "Don't do it." However...
David: However
Seth: ... I wanted to do something a little bit different-
David: Oh
Seth: ... uh, and talk about this from a different perspective.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we can talk about it as a polemic-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... as a response to what was happening in a given space.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I also wanna kind of make sense of the fact... I wanna go deeper into the fact that Paul went all the way back to creation to ground this particular teaching.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, because I think it's interesting that Paul assumes, like, a teaching role for Timothy is grounded in the fact that Adam was created first.
David: Right.
Seth: And so he's like, Adam was created first, so he... And he heard God's commands-
David: Right. And then told Eve
Seth: ... and presumably he was supposed to talk them to Eve, but he failed to do so, and Eve instead listened-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to another teacher.
David: Either told... He, he either told, forgot to tell her [laughs] or didn't tell her-
Seth: Right. Yeah, forgot to tell her [laughs]
David: ... told her wrong or told her right and she forgot.
Seth: And then, uh, yeah, she forgot, or he told her right, and then she heard a d- different voice.
David: Yeah, I know.
Seth: And when they had an opportunity to talk about it, Adam did nothing-
David: Right
Seth: ... and he didn't lean into the moment and try to teach correctly, but just w- what-
David: Yeah, maybe-
Seth: Whatever the case was
David: ... maybe he taught, but he was a bad disciple maker.
Seth: Right. Something.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Something happened there.
David: Right. Okay.
Seth: But also, with the promise... So this, something about Paul connecting Adam's created firstness with the ability to teach-
David: Right
Seth: ... but also connects women's role in the church with being the bearers of the promise, connecting her to Eve and being the one who would bear the Messiah one day.
David: Right, the line about you'll be saved by bearing the child.
Seth: Yes. So what this made me think of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... over the course of the week was, is there a broader biblical theme of the interplay or interdependence between men and women when it comes to teaching and bearing or holding the gospel?
David: Oh.
Seth: Because think about it. So we have this, like, Paul's like, "Okay, men have a special responsibility to teach," like Adam had a special responsibility to teach, but women have a special responsibility to carry the promise inside of them.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: And so Adam, what was he supposed to do to his sons? Point to his wife, Eve-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and tell her, "There's a, there's a promised one coming who will save us."
David: Right.
Seth: And that was supposed to be the pattern-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for God's people outside the garden, where the men were supposed to point to the woman and say, "There's a promise coming"-
David: Oh, okay. Yes
Seth: ... "bo- born inside the woman, Eve."
David: Yes.
Seth: And is that pattern practiced throughout the rest of scripture? And what we got... What we thought, thinking about this-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... was how we have masculine and feminine ways to talk about our own becoming Christians. James 1:21, we're told to receive with meekness the implanted word-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like this masculine implanting or in-seeding word in the way that, like, a man seeds a woman-
David: Right
Seth: ... and bears a child.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then in 1 Peter, we're told, 1:23-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... we've been born again by an imperishable seed.
David: Right.
Seth: Again, a masculine metaphor connected to the word of God, the teaching of God implanted.
David: And in that situation, we're the woman.
Seth: Being implanted with the word, and but then we are, John 3:3, born again.
David: Right. I was gonna say, if we don't talk about John 3 here... Okay, yeah.
Seth: Right. We're at a feminine metaphor to mirror the fact that we are born.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The woman carried the promise and birthed new life. Similar situation in the body of Mary. The spirit overshadows her-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and implants in her...
David: Jesus
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: [laughs]
Seth: A woman bears the promised seed just like it was told to Eve.
David: To Eve, yeah.
Seth: So it's interesting that there's this, seems to be this parallel between, like, the teaching, masculine, fatherly force-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that it's seems to track over the word, and this feminine-
David: Oh
Seth: ... bearing the promise, birthing new lifeSeems these two things seem to speak to each other throughout the biblical narrative.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I'm like, can we have a freewheeling conversation about that and about maybe why those pieces of information might be grounding what Paul's saying too?
David: Okay. Let me pick my brain off the floor first.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, yeah. That's very interesting. I think what's interesting about this, for Timothy's point here, is it's not only... He's not just pulling out a proof text for how the household of God should be run. He's not just like, "Look-
Seth: Right
David: ... Adam was born first, then Eve. Get over it."
Seth: Right.
David: Right? He's like, "No, don't you understand that there has been, and God maybe even sowed into the fabric of reality, a beautiful interplay-
Seth: Yes
David: ... between man and woman?"
Seth: Yes.
David: "And that in man, this word goes forth, and in woman, it's seen as received and bearing fruit and giving birth to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what God intended."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And you guys are breaking that. And if you want to see the church bear fruit and flourish, men preach the Word, women bear it and, like, give life to it and-
Seth: Right
David: ... let it come to fruition."
Seth: It's, and it's really interesting, Paul brings the same language up in 1 Corinthians 11 too. He says, "For this reason, uh, a woman, uh, for this re- it is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head," because the angels. We will get there. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: But he says, "Nevertheless, in the Lord, woman is not independent of man-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... nor is man independent of woman, for as woman comes from man, so also a man is born of woman-
David: Right
Seth: ... and everything comes from God." In that whole context of 1 Corinthians 11 is about orderly worship in the church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So there seems to be, Paul seems to appeal to this interdependence between men and women, men as the implanters, the teachers of God's word-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and women as the holders and the bearer of-
David: But then you can't-
Seth: ... the gospel promise
David: ... yeah, but then once it's born, once the seed is implanted, you need the woman's womb to produce another man.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, okay, let me... I, maybe I'm sniffing out what you're, what-
Seth: Okay
David: ... you're getting after here, is that... And, and I'm not trying to create a false dichotomy.
Seth: Okay.
David: Maybe I don't, I'm not, I don't need to do that. But it's gonna sound like one, where it's like maybe instead of there's a hierarchy in creation-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and man, you know, Adam's born first and then Eve. Okay, maybe.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, let's just put that aside. Let's not create a dichotomy here. Something else is going on.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it is there is a harmony that exists between man and woman when they work in right relationship.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Don't you know what that looks like? It's been all throughout the biblical story and all throughout the human experience that man implants something in woman, and then woman gives birth to something that benefits man.
Seth: Yes.
David: And there's this harmony, and you're disrupting that harmony, women in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Timothy's church, by not receiving the implanted word-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and therefore you're not bearing the fruit that the church needs.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there's this interdependence that has been broken.
Seth: Right.
David: Is that what you-
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: I, I don't know if I would've taken it there, but that's the-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's exactly right. There's this-
David: This was... Seth sprung this on me, so I'm trying to-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... play catch up right now.
Seth: No, I think that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And I mean, that seems to be Paul's original vision for what creation would've been-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as woman springs up out of Adam's rib-
David: Right
Seth: ... Adam teaches her the things that God has told her, and together they fill the earth, multiply, and subdue it together flourishing-
David: Right
Seth: ... under God's, in God's house.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In God's first house. The assembly of the living God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Those were the, the metaphors Paul uses to describe God's church is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that the, it's the assembly of the living God and God's house. And that was what Eden was, and those, as men and women work together in that way, God's house is built up, and it's encouraged, and it's-
David: Wow. That's one way to open a podcast.
Seth: That's one way to open a podcast.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I also... We also have some church fathers who thought about this.
David: Oh, really?
Seth: Like Cyril.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Uh, and, uh, there's even a fourth century catechism that talks about baptism as both a tomb and also a womb.
David: Yes.
Seth: W- the, the spirit is implanted into us by God the Father, and then we die like a seed does in the ground-
David: Right
Seth: ... but we are born out of the maternal waters.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, all, all children are born out of water, right?
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: We're all, like, there's an amniotic sac-
David: Yes
Seth: ... filled with water. We're all born out of water. And in the same way, the seed is planted in the waters of death with Christ but born again through the maternal waters of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... into newness of life, Romans 6.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, even, like, the baptismal imagery church fathers were communicating with the dual role of masculine and feminine metaphors-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to explain the interdependence of God's actions.
David: Mm.
Seth: But, like, also in our case, interesting that masculine and feminine metaphors are mirrored in how Paul imagines the church working-
David: O-
Seth: ... in the Edenic way.
David: Okay, so let me then riff on that for a second. So maybe some people have heard this text taught-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in certain ways, and they have felt like the people teaching it have tried to belittle women-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and maximize men. Um, and maybe even though we haven't necessarily said that, you felt that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, but what you're saying here is there's an interesting thing, like, sure, Paul said women don't teach in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Ephesus right here. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, don't permit a woman to teach, okay? So we might think then that Paul has accorded, uh, men a place of priority over women, and what you're saying is you're missing the other half of the story.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That there is a supreme place in the household of God that women play, so much so that it has been this biblical theme throughout the whole world, and that maybe-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for a woman to try to take that job from a man in that situation-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... would y- w- would end up being like, yeah, but who's nurturing that implanted seed-
Seth: Who's-
David: ... and giving-
Seth: Who's the church's mother?
David: Yeah, who's the church's mom?
Seth: Who's the mother of Eden?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, yeah, we need mother Eden figures, yeah.
David: Yeah, and we've so marginalized that role or unemphasized that theme in Christian conversation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that-W-well, I wanna serve in the church. How do I do it? Well, I gotta-
Seth: Right
David: ... teach. That's the top role, right? And it's like not necessarily. How would Adam have populated the world without Eve giving birth?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: She's the mother of all. [laughs] Like yeah, it's really interesting. It- Yeah. I c- I've come to think about this for, like, a couple years. [laughs]
Seth: We, uh, I was talking with Christine about this.
David: One of our staff writers.
Seth: One of our staff writers before he came on. I was like, "Should I surprise David with this?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: W- w- should we really, should we really go there? And I mean, Paul says in Ephesians 5 that sex, but also the relationship between man and woman is a great mystery, and he says it refers to Christ in the church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I was like, think, in the context of this broader conversation, the implanting of the husband into the, the woman creates new life-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the context of sex and marriage, right?
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's like that's what biology, that's what happens.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In the same way, the church progresses the same way. The man teaches the implanted word, woman bears the promise, and new life is created in the church community.
David: Right. That makes so much more sense, too, that in, uh, I think it's, is it in 2 Timothy? Yeah, 2 Timothy chapter 1, so he writes another letter to him, and how does he start the letter? He starts it by recognizing the women who have borne Timothy-
Seth: Oh
David: ... as the leader of the church.
Seth: Yes.
David: His mother and his grandmother.
Seth: Yes.
David: Paul knows that's how the church works.
Seth: Right. That's so interesting. Yeah.
David: I look back, anytime I talk to my mom and I'm like, "Mom, God did this crazy thing at Spoken Gospel or something," she's like, "Oh my gosh, I've been praying for that for five years."
Seth: [laughs]
David: And I'm like, "She gave birth to it."
Seth: Right, right, right. [laughs]
David: She's the midwife for every good thing God's done in my life. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And, like, that's so amazing. Paul calls that out in 2 Timothy chapter 1. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... man, he's like, "Women, don't forget the supreme role in the church you play. Stop being divisive and bear life with the-"
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "implanted word that's in you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's so interesting. Wow. Okay.
Seth: So that was, that was the big bo- bomb drop. I was like, I feel like we should talk about this 'cause this is, like, the other... It's not just a polemic, but what if there's, like, this broader biblical story Paul's trying to apply?
David: Yeah, he's not just saying, he's not just saying, "Stop it."
Seth: "Stop it in this one church."
David: He's saying, like, "Guys, don't you know you're called into a bigger story?"
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. It's so good.
Seth: So.
David: Okay. Well, now maybe we can switch-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... to chapter three with elders and deacons. [gentle music] Last week we talked about this literary unit, chapters two and three, um, a- as, like, household codes, and we talked a lot about the Roman household, then we talked about God's household, the Eden household, the church as a household, and we began that talk at the end of chapter three around the mystery of godliness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That there's an order to the household of God, that it's the pillar and buttress of truth in the places where it's planted, and it guards that truth through six simple lines about the mystery of godliness, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that he was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up into glory.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we, we've been talking about how that truth is guarded by God's house-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... being operated at an orderly way.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Not in accord with the way the world operates, but in accord with how God operates his universe.
Seth: That's right.
David: One of those things is one we just talked about.
Seth: Right.
David: That there's this amazing, beautiful relationship between man and woman-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God has been telling since the beginning of time-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that he wants replicated here in Timothy's church.
Seth: There's an Edenic order-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that God's church should replicate.
David: Right.
Seth: I mean, he says that, it's like how you ought to behave in the household of God, so the house of God's another way to talk about Eden.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's another way to talk about a temple. It's, like, God's house.
David: Yep.
Seth: Where God lives should be ordered this way, or the other way to say it is the church of the living God.
David: Yes.
Seth: The assembled of the living God. Those that God lives inside, here's how they behave.
David: Yeah. And so now the next step in that argument, or I don't wanna call it an argument now that we're saying it's not just a polemic.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs] Is, ah, there's two more roles in the ordering of God's house, and those are those of, and I don't know if I should say overseers or elders here.
Seth: Episkopos. [laughs]
David: Episkopos is the Greek word here. Uh, overseers and then deacons.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, any thoughts on those two roles or two words?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it, should we not even talk about that 'cause he doesn't really lay out, like, the f- their super, like, functions or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how they're elected or, like-
Seth: He just assumes that Timothy knows what a, an overseer, an elder, a bishop, other, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, a bishop, uh, does and what a deacon does.
David: An episkopos and a, and a diakonos is the other Greek word.
Seth: Oh.
David: Yeah, so those are the two roles that we have that he's gonna talk about here, and I, I mean, I have one really interesting thought that I wanna talk about, but is there any, like, broad strokes picture that we should have in our heads as we're thinking about these roles inside the household of God-
Seth: Well-
David: ... there at Timothy's church?
Seth: ... in Acts 6 we have a clear picture of what a deacon does.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Acts 6:1, "In those days there were a number of disciples was increasing," and the Greek Jews were complaining because the Hebrew Jews were getting favorable treatment in this ministry of the church that was taking care of widows.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the 12 apostles gather together and say, "We can't handle both the, our teaching responsibilities and the responsibility-"
David: The, the ministry to the widows
Seth: ... "to run this widow ministry." And so they appoint, uh, seven deacons-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to run the ministry. And so from that we kinda get, I think, the first, like, paradigm for what a deacon does. They are working alongside the leaders of the church to serve the people of the church.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? So it's like that's their role, and they're often very godly pe- They, they are godly people. There's a whole bunch of different, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... qualifications.
David: They should be godly people. [laughs]
Seth: They should be go- godly people. That's what a deacon.
David: Okay.
Seth: The first time we hear about a deacon.
David: Right, and then you have an overseer.
Seth: Or an elder.
David: Or an elder.
Seth: And I don't, can't think of a story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, in scripture
David: Yeah. No, I, I can't think of, like, a narrative other than maybe the, uh, the elders of the Ephesian church-
Seth: That lay their hands on Timothy
David: ... that lay their hands on Paul be- Paul before he-
Seth: Oh, Paul. That's right. That's right
David: ... goes on his trip to Jerusalem.
Seth: That's right.
David: But you don't really learn anything about them other than, oh, these must be leaders in the church.
Seth: Yeah. So it seems that, I mean, maybe for our purpose, the images we have in our Bible, they seem... elders seem to be the apostolic delegates-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who are responsible for a local congregation.
David: Right.
Seth: They're responsible to teach that congregation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to ord- I mean, and this, they're the fathers of this congregation. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... they're the, the head of the household of this congregation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay
Seth: ... who are supposed to carry out its functions.
David: Of course, wait, God is the head of the household, so.
Seth: God is the head of the household. These are, this is the first steward-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... of the, uh-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: God is the master of the house.
David: They're, they're the first slave among slaves. [laughs]
Seth: They're the first slave among slaves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I've, I've heard churches describe their lead pastor role that way. Like-
David: Oh, really?
Seth: ... the first among equals.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And so that's the way-
David: Yes
Seth: ... they lead is as a first among-
David: Okay
Seth: ... amongst the-
David: The bl- the other ransomed people. [laughs]
Seth: Of, of the other ransomed people of God, yes.
David: Okay. Um, why do you think Paul goes from talking about men and women and order and teaching and all those things to the offices of elders and deacons? You know, there's this false teaching going on in the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's trying to get Timothy to step up and take control and kinda quell this, uh, movement, and now he's talking about the elders and the deacons. What's probably going on there?
Seth: Well, we've already been told back in chapter 1, verse 20 that two teachers in the church, two presumably elders in the church, overseers of the church-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... had to be kicked out, Hymenaeus and Alexander.
David: So there's already maybe a bit of a gangrene going on.
Seth: Yeah, like there's a leadership, at least a leadership vacuum-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... perhaps. And we do also know that false teaching has erupted enough to cause significant disruption in the worship service-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that Paul has to address it in the previous section about men and women in relationship to one another in the, in the-
David: Right
Seth: ... gathered service.
David: Okay, so, like, one of several things might be happening here. You might have, like you said, a leadership vacuum where they l- they, their, their head elders just got excommunicated. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now who's gonna lead the church alongside Timothy? Or there was such a rift in the eldership that, um, who should lead, who shouldn't lead? How, how do I know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who, who to excommunicate next or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who's good to lead? Uh, or yeah, uh, there's so much going on there.
Seth: Yes.
David: Or how do I protect against this happening again maybe.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And one of the interesting things is the qualification for elders and deacons are almost identical. Almost.
David: Yes.
Seth: The one difference between them, the one significant difference between them is that an elder is able to teach.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We're never told a deacon needs to be able to teach.
David: Right.
Seth: But an elder needs to be able to teach. And what was just on the line a couple of verses before?
David: False teaching.
Seth: False teaching, and people saying they should have the authority to teach when they don't have the authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to teach. So, like, the idea here in part as well is, like, you've had examples of poor leadership. Here's examples of godly leadership. Um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and here's what they should be able to do.
David: Yeah. It's interesting. It's like if it is a bit of a polemic, I, I do wonder how much of this has to do with him kind of cheekily calling out a lot of the qualities of the false teachers by comparison to the ideal elder, right?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He's like, "Hey, you know, don't be, uh, like puffed up and full of conceit, you know, or you're gonna fall into disgrace and into the snare of the devil." It's like that's just how he described the false teachers. They're these people who are so arrogant-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... but they don't know what they're talking about. And he's like, "Don't, don't be like them. You, you gotta be..." [laughs] So he, like, sets up this antitype to the, uh, the elders, uh, that might have led this church astray.
Seth: Yeah. Good elders are sober-minded, wink.
David: Right.
Seth: They are self-controlled, wink.
David: Right.
Seth: They are respectable, wink. Hospitable, wink.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Do these describe the current people in leadership?
David: If not-
Seth: The- then you might be a bad elder. [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah. [laughs] You might be a red man.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, so you know, it's, it, it's interesting. I think I've only read this passage in the context of, oh, it's like a manual for who to hire as your elder, who to elect to your-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... elder board or whatever, and not as this really clever, uh, rubric, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or even, um, kind of literary polemic that Paul might be using in order to oust bad leaders from-
Seth: Right
David: ... the church.
Seth: When Hymenaeus and Alexander left the church by Paul's edict, my guess is that not everybody was happy with that decision.
David: Oh, I'm sure not. Yeah.
Seth: Presumably evidenced by the fact that false teaching is still happening. Alexander will get another mention in 2 Timothy. Uh, so it seems as if his influence is growing throughout the course of these letters. So there's a group of people that aren't happy with him, and so Paul actually has to convince the loyalists to Alexander that he's disqualified himself as a leader of God's church.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, he's actually teaching the congregation at the same time he's... You, I'm ma- I'm making your point here.
David: Yeah, but you're making it a little clearer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's helpful.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Okay. [laughs] I mean, what else do we do with this passage? You know, like what else-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like what else am I supposed to be thinking about other than like, hey-
Seth: I mean, if you're-
David: ... if I wanted to be an over- an overseer or a deacon, these are a great list of qualifications to try to, like, aspire to in my Christian walk.
Seth: Yeah, y- if you want to be in leadership in a church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you should take stock of these as, like, the way in which you become worthy of that calling. You know, it's like that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... these are the types of people God wants in his church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if you're a current pastor, you should strive to live up to these as well. You know, like, that's the, the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the part of the function.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's the way... I think you're right. That's the way that I heard them most often.
David: Right.
Seth: Here's, here's the 10 things you gotta be if you wanna be an elder.
David: Right.
Seth: Here's the 10 things you gotta, you're gonna wanna be if you wanna be a deacon.
David: And if you miss one, eh.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's kinda the, the basic way. But I think the second way that we're talking about it is like, well, they're also a polemic against the false teachers.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's showing the people of Ephesus the types of leaders they should be hoping for, and the reason why people like Alexander and Hymenaeus have been disqualified. They don't live up to the command, to the high calling that scripture would call them to.
David: Right. And so I, I guess then we gotta zoom back out and say then there's two things on the line here, and I wanna try to draw a line between them. We're talking about the household of God and keeping it in order so that the mystery of godliness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the gospel of Jesus might be proclaimed as the pillar and buttress of truth-
Seth: In all the world
David: ... in all the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So how does having these types of men in the leadership of the church order the household and proclaim the gospel?
Seth: Well-
David: That's what's on the line, right?
Seth: That's what's on the line.
David: Okay.
Seth: Chapter 3 verse 4, "He must manage his own household well."
David: Mm.
Seth: "For if someone does not know how to manage his own household hold, how will he care for God's church?" So there's a sense, like, the reason why we're harping on these char- Like, we want good leaders of God's house, good stewards of God's house.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there are a whole bunch of qualified men in this congregation who could do that, but the first place that they prove they can lead God's house is in the house-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the smaller house that they've been given-
David: Right
Seth: ... of responsibility over. Can they do it there? Then they can do it here. I feel that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... starting to answer your question, right?
David: Because the idea is that if the church is going to be a witness to the world around it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that it has the truth.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? That it has the mystery of godliness.
Seth: Do you wanna-
David: This is the house of the living God.
Seth: This is the house of the living God.
David: Then it needs to be run in a way that concurs with the gospel.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? How can you have a gospel that proclaims that the God of the universe became a slave and laid down his life, right-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... if the m- men who say that they love him and serve him are mistreating those that they, they have been put in their care?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It's like the gospel doesn't equal their lives. They have to be living the gospel out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if they're going to order the house around the gospel.
Seth: Yes. That's what goes into verse seven, "He must be well thought of by outsiders."
David: Ah.
Seth: There is a sense of which, like, the way the household of God is run is a public affair.
David: That eldership and deacons are evangelistic just in their structure.
Seth: Yeah, and the way that the character of the men and women in charge-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... will impact the way the broader world sees you, and if you cannot be men of character, women of character in your positions as elders or deacons, the whole world's gonna know it and bring shame on God's house.
David: Right.
Seth: Which, I mean, is not... It's been happening all around us.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I can't, like, uh-
David: There's too many examples to iterate
Seth: ... there's too, there's too many ex-
David: Everyone knows one
Seth: ... I don't wanna name examples.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it's like you have these, like, public investigations into churches-
David: Right
Seth: ... where the leaders are corrupt.
David: Yeah, and I... and that, those examples don't really bode well for the house of God. That doesn't make them look good to outsiders.
Seth: Right, right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And often it's a few people at the top-
David: Right
Seth: ... that poison the whole thing.
David: Yeah, it's not like, "Oh, that person was a member at your church?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Has that ever happened? [laughs]
Seth: Like, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: It's always leadership-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that ends up casting doubt on the church from the outside.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So part of... I mean, you're right. Part of this is, like, evangelistic.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The way that God's house is run should want other people to be a part of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And should run God's house in a way that wouldn't bring shame to God's house.
David: Yeah, the leaders should be of such character, you know, like Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that the people who go to that church would want nothing more than to submit to them.
Seth: Right.
David: And their leadership would be like, "Oh, wherever this guy's going, I'm there, because he's like Jesus."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if he's the first servant among servants-
Seth: I can look at that church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and tell that's where God lives.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've-
David: God lives there, I would, I would be a kid in that house.
Seth: And that doesn't just apply for leadership. So we, we talked about leadership-
David: Mm
Seth: ... kind of in, like, quotation marks.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, leadership writ large, godly leaders make the house attractive to outsiders.
David: Right.
Seth: But the, also the deacons, those who have the ministry of serving, who lead by serving-
David: Yeah, right
Seth: ... you know, like, they're... They have a really Christ-like role in that they are serving the body for needs that n- aren't necessarily their own.
David: Right.
Seth: And the way that those godly people serve is also... Uh, he says it this way, "Those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the deacons have that same role of, like, projecting to the world a new mini Eden, and that's why they need to be men and women of character.
David: Right, and they do that through serving like-
Seth: Through serving
David: ... Jesus served.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's the mystery of godliness.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, that's really cool. The thing, like, the gospel turn that's, like, in my head as I'm thinking about this is since Jesus is the head of the church, you know, like, it's... He's the head of the household-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and Jesus is the elder par excellence-
Seth: Yep
David: ... right, he m- he takes these qualifications and turns them up to 11 and does them perfectly. [laughs]
Seth: Yep.
David: Why is it good news that the head of our house, the head of the church, is Jesus, the perfect man, the perfect leader, the one who-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, was proclaimed among the nations, believed upon in the world, and take, taken up into glory?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, what's the, what's the gospel of the headship of the household of Jesus?
Seth: I mean, I think part of it is that you have Jesus as the first shepherd, the first elder, the first deacon, who dies to his own needs but is resurrected in power. As he leads and serves in humility, he's resurrected in power. And so as the church elects or hires [laughs]-
David: Yeah, whatever their individual process might be.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Godly church leaders, that same type of resurrection lifeWill happen again.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like the hope of godly church leaders is to enact resurrection life to a church full of broken people.
David: Hmm.
Seth: You know, it's like the, the church is full of broken people, sad people, depressed people-
David: Right
Seth: ... sinful people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I don't think there is any pastor out there who believes they're going to go pastor a group of healthy, well-adjusted people-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... who believe the gospel perfectly.
David: Right.
Seth: That's not the, the position human beings are in.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so we're all dying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Everyone in the church is dying, and so when you have a leader, a deacon, an elder going into that position to be like Christ, to die to their own self, to die to their desire to be a man or a woman of character, is to invite the same humility and death in themselves that guarantees resurrection life for others.
David: Right.
Seth: As they bear the burdens of their congregation, they also bear them up into eternal life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah, the good news that Jesus is the head of the church is that every church is full of death, but because Jesus is the head of the church, he will bring life out of it.
Seth: Yes, and as godly men and women of character embody deacon and elder roles-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... that new life trickles down-
David: Right
Seth: ... as they mirror Christ in, in themselves.
David: I think another thing, as we've talked about being thought well of by outsiders in Timothy here, but then also in our own day and age, the, the attacks against the church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... um, some rightfully grounded on terrible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... things that leaders have done, um, it's really good news for those of us in the church who are staying faithful [laughs] to the bride of Christ, despite all the attacks that come against it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the reason we maintain our trust in the church, the bride, the assembly, the house, is because we know that man's not actually at the head of it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That Jesus is the elder-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of elders.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The deacon of deacons.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The pastor of pastors.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Right? Jesus is the head of the house, and I know that regardless of my leaders' failings and regardless of my own failings, I know that the house will ultimately be ordered right, and then I'll be a safe kid and servant inside of it because I know who the dad is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I know who the head of the house is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's rock solid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's like you, you would look... It's like looking at an, like a, a house of, of any family in your neighborhood.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you can look at it, and it's like, "Oh, man, did you hear what's going on with their teenage daughter? It's so sad" or, "Did you hear their grandma died of cancer?" And all this stuff-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... could be swirling around in the house, and you are going to be incrementally more concerned for that family based on who the dad is in the house.
Seth: Hmm.
David: If there's a rock solid man of God in that house, you're gonna ache for the family and the things they're going through, but you're gonna know they're gonna pull through it.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: 'Cause there's a... They're-
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: The head of the house is firm, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if there's no head of the house or the father is a drunkard and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you're gonna be like, "Well, that's it for them. They're done."
Seth: Yeah. You know what?
David: There's-
Seth: It's like there, there's a solidity. The pillar and the buttress, the foundation of truth is-
David: Is
Seth: ... grounded in the fact that Jesus is the head of the church.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And you can't assail that. You can't attack that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus is never gonna have a moral failing. [laughs] Like we're safe in the house of God because Jesus is the dad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He, he... Not, I'm not trying to, like, confuse the fatherhood of God with the-
David: Well, yeah
Seth: ... sonship of Jesus.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: You know what I'm saying.
David: If you've seen Jesus the Son, you've seen the Father.
Seth: Here's... This is a different gospel turn.
David: Okay. I'm ready for it.
Seth: That I was... I don't know how to make sense of it, but it's verse thir- 13 again. "For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves."
David: Hmm.
Seth: So f- the first one was like, "Elders need to be thought well of-"
David: By outsiders
Seth: "... by outsiders as a qualification." Here, deacons who serve gain a good standing for themselves-
David: Right
Seth: ... among the outsiders, and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, serving as a means for gaining confidence in your salvation.
David: Yeah, and even-
Seth: So-
David: ... getting a good standing.
Seth: So, yeah, talk to me about that. When I think about the benefit of salvation is that I'm with God forever-
David: Right
Seth: ... or that I go to heaven when I die.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That... You know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's the kinda, the, the first things I think about. But he's like, "The reason why you wanna be a deacon is so that you can gain good standing for yourself and grow in your confidence in the faith."
David: Right.
Seth: What is he talking about?
David: Yeah. I think it's a, a theme in the Bible that I'm a little uncomfortable with, but I'm trying to get more comfortable with it. Uh, and I, I don't know if it was my upbringing or my seminary or whatever [laughs] that kinda beat this out of me, but it's like for some reason I think that rewards are bad. Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... that you don't pursue God for his blessings.
Seth: Right.
David: That's bad.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You pursue him 'cause he's God and he's good. True. Not attacking that at all, uh, but God does reward those who pursue him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They bear fruit in season. This isn't health and wealth gospel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is being the son of a really good dad.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what this is. And so I'm reminded of Hebrews 11 that says this: "Without faith it is impossible to please God," right? "And whoever would draw near to God must believe two things." So if you wanna draw near to God and have a faith that pleases him, here's the two requirements: You must believe that he exists. That's a good one.
Seth: So it's, [laughs] that's ground floor.
David: Ground, ground floor.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But then listen to the second qualification, that he rewards those who seek him.
Seth: Hmm.
David: You have to believe that he's a good God, who when you seek him, he rewards you. So it makes so much sense. That's the first thing that I thought of.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The second thing is that what you've described about the deacons here, what happens to them-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they're servants in the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They give their lives to help those who are less fortunate, maybe the widows ministry, which we know was functioning in Timothy's church.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, maybe that's w- we don't know they were.
Seth: Poorly. [laughs]
David: Poorly.
Seth: We'll get there. [laughs]
David: But, you know, we'll get there in Second Timothy, or no, it's in, it's, is it in-
Seth: It's in, it's-
David: It's in First Timothy, yeah
Seth: ... in First Timothy.
David: Uh, and you have these servants, right? Uh, the deacons are the servants of the church, okay? And yet as they serve, as they go low, as they give themselves, what happens to them? They raise up.They, they get in good standing
Seth: Right. Mm-hmm.
David: What in the world?
Seth: That's interesting. Yeah.
David: That's a picture of the gospel.
Seth: Right.
David: Jesus served, went low, made himself a slave, and he was raised up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So what he's saying is, this is just the way God built the world-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that when you lose your life, you gain it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's saying, "That's how I built the household of the world, and so deacons, if you wanna live in my world in a really good way, go low and you'll go high."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. It's just how God built the world.
Seth: Hmm. And confidence in the faith, do you think that means, like, a confidence in their own sense of being God's child?
David: Mm.
Seth: Or, so it's like the more you serve the church, the more confident you feel that you're God's own child? Or is that more like confidence in the faith in like a more general s- uh, you become more confident that Jesus really is the God who takes low people and brings them high.
David: Yeah. I think there's a lot, probably a lot of it. I, I know, like, when our church talks about volunteering, you know, we'll have, like, a volunteer drive or something like that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And people will share their testimonies about being a door greeter or, uh, working in the nursery. And a- again and again and again, the common denominator I always hear with these volunteers is that they just feel so much closer to the Lord.
Seth: Hmm.
David: I don't know why.
Seth: Right.
David: I can't, like, draw a logical line necessarily for you, because honestly, it's probably 100 different ways. You know, for one person, it's this pathway. For another person, it's that pathway. But for some reason, something happens in their brains and in their hearts that through serving, they just love Jesus more. Probably 'cause they're being like him more.
Seth: Right.
David: And they're experiencing, I think like what you were getting at, they're experiencing the way God built the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, man, I gave up my Sunday morning and woke up a little earlier and poured out my heart to these kids in the, in the childcare, and for some reason, I just feel awesome.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: Right. Right, right.
David: And it's like, I wonder why. Oh, man, 'cause God built the world that way.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's like you're living the gospel, and as you live the gospel, you die and then you get life. You give, you give, thinking you won't get anything, and then you do. It just confirms-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the death and resurrection of Jesus over and over and over again to yourself, pragmatically.
Seth: Right.
David: You're like, of course Jesus died and rose. Look what happened when I gave and then God raised me up.
Seth: When I gave something up as small as a Sunday morning and received back-
David: Joy
Seth: ... joy.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Who trades a Su- I would take joy for a S- like if I received j-
David: Yeah, take my Sunday morning, give me joy.
Seth: Give me joy. Like, that's a good trade. [laughs]
David: It's the one thing everyone wants and they can't get.
Seth: Right, right.
David: And it's like, what do you need to do to get that? Just serve.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, well, yeah, deal.
Seth: Wow, that's good.
David: So yeah, that's probably part of it.
Seth: Yeah, that's a good-
David: But it's a, I think it's also, like, myst- the mystery of godliness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is I don't know why serving makes you grow in your faith. That's part of the mystery of godliness.
Seth: It just does.
David: It just, it just, it just does.
Seth: It just does.
David: God built the world that way. So yeah. Anything else floating around in your mind about this?
Seth: Not really. I mean...
David: Well, great.
Seth: I, I love this.
David: Yeah, this was a really interesting conversation, especially the beginning part.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That blew my mind. Well, um, what's next for us then?
Seth: Well, next week we'll be in, uh, the last three chapters of Timothy, whether that's one podcast or two, we have not yet decided.
David: Okay.
Seth: But it's going into more conversations about the false teachings that are happening in Timothy's church and pairing it with Timothy's responsibility to teach the Word.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and then it ends with some, a potpourri of pastoral application.
David: Ooh.
Seth: Here's how to fix your widows ministry.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Here's how to fix the, the men getting drunk. Here's how to fix this problem. [laughs]
David: The, just the practical back half of the pastoral book.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the theology in the front part, and then it's like, okay.
Seth: Okay, let's get down to brass tacks.
David: Here's how to fix your youth ministry. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's awesome. Well, great. Well, we hope you guys will join us as we wrap up 1 Timothy over the next, uh, week or two, uh, and we will see you there.
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