David: [upbeat music] There's nothing else to search for or-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or try to make up myths and endless genealogies about. There's no new form of godliness to achieve. There's no type of adornment you have to put on your body. There's no debate you have to win. It's all done in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the mystery, is it's done. The secret is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it is finished.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you for joining us for our third week in the letters to Timothy.
Seth: That's right.
David: We're in 1 Timothy chapters two and three.
Seth: That's right.
David: We're gonna be talking about women in the church. We're gonna be talking about men in the church. We're gonna talk about elders and deacons in the church. And, uh-
Seth: Everyone's favorite passages
David: ... everyone's favorite passages.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I'm excited.
Seth: I am too.
David: Uh, yeah, yeah. How are you, what are you-
Seth: I-
David: ... processing as you kinda come into this today?
Seth: I'm feeling great, and the need to start at the end.
David: Okay. Oh.
Seth: So, which-
David: Start at the end?
Seth: Start at the end.
David: Oh, chapter three.
Seth: Of chapter three. Um-
David: Okay. Why, why is that?
Seth: At the end of chapter three, Paul literally says, "This is why I'm writing to you."
David: Oh.
Seth: And I think that's helpful information before we go into the things that most people wanna argue about. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know what I mean?
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, what was Paul's intention in writing?
David: Why, [laughs] why are these here?
Seth: Why is he writing these things? What does he imagine is the most important things that are driving everything else he's saying? And he says this, "I hope to come to you soon, Timothy, but I'm writing these things." I think the whole letter is these things, but in particular, the contents of chapter two and three.
David: Mm.
Seth: S- uh, "I'm writing these things to you so that if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the assembly of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth." And then he says this, "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery or the secret of godliness. Jesus was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." So this ends this section of the letter, and grounds all the commands he gives, starting with verse one of chapter two. So I think we should start here and unpack what this means-
David: Okay
Seth: ... before we go back.
David: So you're saying, Paul says, "Here's why I'm writing you. Here's what should ground everything I've said."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And what is it? What's the reason, and what's the grounding?
Seth: So he says, "I'm writing all this to you so that you would know how you ought to behave in the household of God."
David: Okay, so the reason he's written all this is so Timothy, and I suppose also his congregants-
Seth: Yep
David: ... would know how to behave, or what, like, how to act, how to live-
Seth: Yes
David: ... how to have order-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in this household of God?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's a strange saying.
Seth: So it's a common stock Roman phrase.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, uh, the household wa- had a patriarch at the head of it. It had his wife, his children, his slaves, and anybody else that was his, his, his extended family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the master of the house kinda controlled the fates of everybody else.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so Paul's saying, God is the master of the house, of the household of God. Like-
David: Oh, so you might have, like, the household of Stephen.
Seth: Yes, so-
David: And it's Stephen's household.
Seth: Stephen's house.
David: And he conducts it in a Roman way-
Seth: Yes, that's right
David: ... with great order and judiciousness.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay?
Seth: And so we-
David: That's how Romans talk, I don't know if you-
Seth: That's how Ro- [laughs]
David: ... I didn't know if you knew that.
Seth: Slightly British.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But very proper.
David: Very slight, very slightly.
Seth: [laughs] Um, yeah, so this is God's house.
David: Okay.
Seth: Which kinda means that everybody in the church is either a wife or, or a child or a slave. Like, that's, like, the, the role.
David: Mm.
Seth: A steward is probably the best word, which is actually how Paul has described people already. He says, uh-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... "The false teachers lead them away from stewarding God's house."
David: Which was that, or, like, as the, like, proper order.
Seth: Proper ordering.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah, so we, so the, Paul's saying, w- what is the church?
David: Mm.
Seth: The church is first and foremost a house that is ruled by its master, God, and the people of the house are the stewards of the house-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who have responsibilities and functions within the house to accomplish the will of the master.
David: Right, but God's the master.
Seth: But God's the master.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And we accomplish his will.
David: Okay. All right. I think I'm, I'm on board. Uh, one thing that I, like, have swirling in my head is the household codes of Rome.
Seth: Yeah?
David: Like, 'cause yes, they had households, but I think for us, um-
Seth: We can think of, like, household, like, the house is not the center of society in the same way for us as it was for Rome.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And I think, like, maybe at one point in Western society, you know, the nuclear-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... family was the pillar of the nation.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, I think there's been enough research done, uh-
Seth: To-
David: ... that's dissolved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, but that was an experiment, at least, was the nuclear family.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there, there's still some remnants of that that we can understand is, like, there's-
Seth: The family's one of the most important institutions in a nation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kind of idea.
David: There you go.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Exactly. That's what I'm trying to get at. For Rome, you know, like-
Seth: It was-
David: ... and for the Romans, there, there was such an, a, an authoritative and, not in a dictatorship kind of way, but there was a reason why Rome could spread so far with so much power-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and proclaim what was called the Pax Romana, the Peace of Rome. It's because they knew what they were doing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They knew how to keep order in their house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And what they did was, it was, there was hierarchy all the way downAnd that hierarchy, you know, whether it was Caesar or a governor or whatever-
Seth: Senator-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or just a, a father-
David: Right
Seth: ... a patriarch of a home. Yeah.
David: Well, that's what I'm getting to. It translated all the way down to a home.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the father or the, the leader of that house was just as responsible as Caesar was over Rome, over his house.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And to not do that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is to not only be non-Roman, to be un- that's un-Roman.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? But it is to threaten the fabric of society.
Seth: Yeah. That would go against Roman family values-
David: Right
Seth: ... and be a part of the destruction of Rome.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: That is what's on the line when you're talking about the household codes-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... to a group of Roman citizens.
Seth: Which is part of the reason why Christianity was seen as a threat.
David: Absolutely.
Seth: They kind of, they say, like, "No, God is the master of that. There's a household."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "We agree with you, Rome. There is a household-
David: Right
Seth: ... that has an authority structure, but at the very top is God, not Caesar, Jesus, not a man."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, Jesus was a man-
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... but you know what I mean. Jesus, and he dictates how we live and the rules we follow and the way in which our mini society functions here at this church.
David: Right. And it did that, and then it also was like, also, it's not only the people in my house who are my brothers and sisters, but also-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... my other nationality neighbors are my brothers and sisters and also, um, we go to a meeting in the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in the, like, courtyard of our neighbors, and it's not just the men who go-
Seth: It-
David: ... but it's the men and the women.
Seth: And the slaves.
David: And the slaves.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We all hang out together.
Seth: And we all sit in a circle and listen to somebody teach.
David: Yeah, and it's like they are upending-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Roman society.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so what's on the line there, and I think what should be in our background of our minds is, like, Roman society is already suspicious of this Jesus movement.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so the Jesus movement has to be careful about how they operate in that counter-cultural way-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... so that they can continue to live peaceably, can continue-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to function ev- e- evangelistically-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and cast the best light on the gospel and Jesus and His church.
Seth: We might get into this later, but over and over again throughout 1 Timothy, there are these appeals to be seen, thought of well by outsiders.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The, one of the qualifications for being an elder or a bishop of the church is to be well thought of by outsiders. Slaves are told to act a certain way in order that the broader society will look well on them. One of the first prayers we're supposed to pray is for the governing societies to treat Christians well so that the gospel can go forward.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, there is this evangelistic broader concern about the way that people perceive ear- the early Christian movement-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in order that more people would follow Jesus.
David: Would join it. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Right. So-
David: Yeah, it's like who's gonna be wanna, wanna be a part of something.
Seth: That's also helpful. Like, this phrase household.
David: Right.
Seth: Y- it's right and good to, like, put in some context-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what that meant for them. Not only is God the master of the house and we are his willing stewards-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... doing His will. I think that's-
David: Right
Seth: ... you know, like, that's true.
David: Yes.
Seth: But also, like, we're subverting Roman family values by even saying that out loud.
David: That's right. And so Paul is writing to Timothy for the express purpose of helping him know how to run God's house.
Seth: Yes.
David: How, how should it be ordered? It, it, it's not ordered just like Rome-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but it's also not just willy-nilly. There's an order to it, and he should take it as seriously as-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Roman fathers take the running of their house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So we ta- we talked about it. That's the purpose.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But what's the... Then we said there's a grounding, and that grounding, you said, is this mystery of godliness.
Seth: Well, we're not even done with the purpose.
David: We're not even done with the purpose. Okay.
Seth: Which is the church of the living God. He def- he describes it a different way.
David: Oh.
Seth: So you, so, so we have-
David: Okay
Seth: ... it's the household of God.
David: The household of God.
Seth: Which is the church or the assembled or the gathered-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... of the living God.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So interesting here, you have a, a gathering of people in whom God lives.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So you're not just like, "We're gonna organize our home in a way that accords with God." We are gonna organize ourselves in a way as if God lived inside of us.
David: Uh-huh. Okay. So does that mean [laughs] like... I'll try to, like, keep this Roman analog going. In a sense, I said, like, y- y- Roman husbands ran mini kingdoms.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they are the Caesars of their house.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but it's not like when they run their, uh, house well, C- Caesar is with them.
Seth: Right [laughs].
David: Right? Or like-
Seth: Right. Caesar's not there d- d- giving-
David: Right
Seth: ... opinions on how they're running this house.
David: Right, or, or even, like, more, like, beautifully, like, a well-run Roman home doesn't mean you get to court the king. You don't get to play host-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to the king.
Seth: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Right? You don't get that privilege.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: But you're saying in God's household, the god of the house actually shows up. Like, the king-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... comes to dinner-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in God's house.
Seth: Yeah. It's the church, the assembled of the living God. And I think in more... Paul doesn't really pick up on it here, but he will elsewhere. Like, that means the living God is the spirit-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who fills us and empowers us to live godly lives. So I think part of what he means here is that we are supposed to behave, like, that whole purpose here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is we behave in a certain way. We behave orderly because-
David: I see
Seth: ... God is the master, and God himself is empowering us to live as He has commanded.
David: I see. So we're coming together. Yes, there's household codes, but also, we're a collection of people that the living God lives inside.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And when we get together, it looks a certain way.
Seth: It looks a certain way.
David: So I'm, I'm writing to you, Timothy, that you might know how that looks.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay?
Seth: And then he says, "Here's the function of this household, this assembled gathering of living, breathing God" [laughs] like, of people who... [laughs] not living, breathing gods, of people in whom God dwells.
David: Yes.
Seth: And a house in which God is master. It is the pillar and the buttress of the truth. It's the-
David: Oh
Seth: ... bedrock, the foundation of the truth in a world full of anger and lies.
David: I see.
Seth: So in a similar way, to keep the Roman analogy going, what's the bedrock of Roman society?The family. In the same way like the Roman home is the bedrock of Roman society-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the church is the bedrock, the pillar of true truth, of truth.
David: Truth.
Seth: Of truth, the message of the gospel.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: This is where it comes from, this household of God, stewards doing the will of the master, filled with God's spirit. They are the bedrock of truth in a world that is watching.
David: Okay, and in Timothy's situation-
Seth: In a new kingdom, a, a bedrock of a truth in a new kingdom.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And in Timothy's situation, truth is on the line.
Seth: Yep.
David: You have false teachers. They are getting lost in myths, in endless genealogies, and-
Seth: Disturbing the order of God's house
David: ... be- well, and, and those, those are tied together, you're saying-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in a really interesting way, that the reason why there are myths and genealogies and a lack of truth is because the pillar and buttress of truth is out of order.
Seth: That's right.
David: So it's like get the house in order-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because your little pocket of the kingdom, Timothy-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... your church, it's meant to be there in Ephesus, one of the pillars-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that shows to all of the Roman citizens in Ephesus what the truth is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so get your house in order [laughs].
Seth: Yep.
David: Live in this certain way.
Seth: Live in accordance with the truth.
David: Right.
Seth: Yep.
David: Because as you do that, you will example what is most true to everyone around you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So that's really-
Seth: You'll show the way of Jesus.
David: So that's on the line.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, and how does he then go on to define like the truth or what they're defending?
Seth: Yeah. So he says, "Great indeed, we confess, is the s- mystery of godliness," or, "The secret of godliness." And then he sings, he quotes a hymn.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like an ancient hymn that they probably would've been pr- familiar with, that Paul was familiar with. It was just a common thing that Christians confessed together.
David: Hillsong Ephesus sang it every Friday.
Seth: Yeah, every [laughs] single time.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, He was manifested in the flesh. Jesus was manifested in the flesh.
David: This is the hymn.
Seth: This is the hymn.
David: Okay.
Seth: Vindicated in or by the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is the secret of living as good stewards of God's house.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is the secret of being ambassadors, being part of the gathered of the living God. This is the secret to living a life that accords with truth.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's, that's, that's what this is doing.
David: It's the secret of godliness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The, the hidden mystery of godliness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then you would expect some crazy unknown kernel of-
Seth: Right
David: ... blow-your-mind truth.
Seth: Let me go into the genealogies.
David: Right.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: And pull out something you've never heard of before. Instead, he preaches a well-known hymn-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that repeats the building blocks of the gospel, [laughs] the basic tenets of their faith.
Seth: God became man in Jesus. Jesus was raised from the dead. Angels saw Him. Angels proclaimed him u- uh, proclaimed Him in the world. He was believed on in the world, and then He was ascended to heaven and sits at God's right hand.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is just basic-
David: Right
Seth: ... truths about Jesus.
David: Yeah. Okay, so help me understand what you're getting at here then. Are you saying that the gospel is on the line? Like [laughs] the truth of the gospel or the believability, I suppose, of the gospel's on the line if Timothy doesn't get the house in order?
Seth: Mm.
David: Um, or is it the other way around, that the gospel is what will put the house in order?
Seth: Mm.
David: What's going on here?
Seth: Well, I think there's probably a sense in which the first thing is true. Like if the house doesn't get in order, the reputation of the gospel's on the line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that is-
David: At least in that little community of Ephesus.
Seth: Yeah. I think that's part of it, but I think more of what he's saying here is the way in which we l- look and are good stewards of God's house, the way in which we truly live as if the living God lives in us, is by living our lives according to this mystery, that Jesus came, Jesus died, Jesus rose. Like, that's-
David: I see
Seth: ... that's the secret of-
David: Well-
Seth: ... being godly.
David: I understand.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think what... Okay, what you're saying is what is the household code of God? It's the gospel.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: What's the, what's the rule book for the house of God?
Seth: Yes.
David: The gospel.
Seth: Yes.
David: What says who gets which job and how do we treat one another? The gospel.
Seth: Yes.
David: So if we are, order the church in any way that doesn't reflect these six simple lines of the gospel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we've missed something.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And think about that in comparison to the way the false teachers have approached the secrets of godliness.
David: Mm.
Seth: The secrets of godliness are hidden in myths, these myths, these endless genealogies, this endless babbling, these old wives' tales.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the false teachers go on and on and on and on about things that are hidden in scripture, that they've found hidden in scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: But Paul's like, "No, the secret's pretty, it's a pretty open secret."
David: [laughs]
Seth: Jesus came, Jesus died, Jesus rose, Jesus ascended.
David: Right.
Seth: End of story.
David: Right. It's like in, you know the... Okay, you know that little genealogy you guys have been picking apart forever, and you wanna know the secret behind it? You wanna know what the secret of the genealogy in Genesis 5 is?
Seth: [laughs] It's the-
David: It's the gospel
Seth: ... it's the gospel. The whole point of that genealogy, Matthew showed you-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... it led to Jesus. Remember that part?
David: Yes.
Seth: [laughs] Right.
David: Yeah. Well, so like, uh, which is really fun, especially for us at Spoken Gospel, where that's like our whole thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, well, I mean, especially last episode, we talked about how to rightly and wrongly use the law, the Old Testament.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, well, if you wanna use the law rightly, you have to understand the secret behind every part of it.
Seth: Right.
David: Wherever you are, there's a secret hidden in it.
Seth: Mm.
David: But it's not what the false teachers were looking for. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Some mysterious thing that makes you live immorally and make up your own conclusions about life.
Seth: Secret-
David: The secret in every passage of the Old Testament is these six lines about the gospel.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's amazing. Okay, that's really cool.
Seth: Then let me ask you this question.
David: Yep.
Seth: I think this idea that these bald facts about what Jesus did, He came, He appeared, He died, He rose, He ascended-How has that helped me become more godly?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Right, do you know what I mean? Like why is it the secret, the essence-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of godliness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is knowing these, these things?
David: I mean, I just, two answers pop into mind immediately
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: One is this is the message that's so good that it changes who you are.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's like Paul just talked about it in chapter one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He is now patient with false teachers because he was a false teacher to whom God was patient.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Then the, the fact that God became flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and has now ascended and ready to return to bring us home again-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is such good news that it changes our hearts. It, like, which he also talked about in chapter one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It gives us, like, sincere faith and good hearts that wanna love people because God has so radically loved us.
Seth: Okay.
David: It changes who we are.
Seth: Okay.
David: Um, I think that's the first thing. The second one that came to mind was not only that it makes us new people, but it gives us a new system, a new worldview-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to see-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... how the world should operate.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause especially, imagine you're a Roman citizen, how does the world operate? Oh, if you're bor- if you're born first, you get the lion's share of the inheritance. If you're the strongest, you win the fight. If you have the most power, you crush those underneath you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's how you excel in this world. That's how you succeed. That's how you grow. Uh, and Jesus is like, "No, I was the God of the universe and I became flesh."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's a new system that he's introducing into the world
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "I died, and you thought death was the end. That was the old system."
Seth: Okay.
David: "I was vindicated by the Spirit. I was raised from the dead."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's a new world order. [laughs] It gives you a different way to be human.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I think those two things, it makes you a new human and then gives you a new way to be human.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Then you put those new humans in community together in the assembled gathering of the church-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they're gonna be a different kinda house. And so I think that's, that would be how I answer that question.
Seth: Yeah. And I, there's pro- I think those are great answers. The gospel cha- transforms us, and it shows us that there's something new to be aspired to be and th- th- that God's making us to be.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and maybe, like, the, the simple answer is maybe also a good answer, too, is like, oh, the mystery of godliness is the truth that he's talking about. The church is a bedrock of truth. What is the truth? Jesus came.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus died. [laughs] Jesus rose. Jesus is King. Like, that's the, that's the truth the church is called to guard and to, um, act as if it's true to a world that's watching it, right? Like-
David: Yeah. How do you avoid all these reckless controversies and going on and on about myths and getting caught up in the details and backbiting and false teaching, and can we just all sit on the truth?
Seth: Can we focus here, please?
David: On these-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... six lines about Jesus?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Can we just all agree-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that Jesus did this?
Seth: Well, it's interesting. If you look up at 1 Timothy 3:9, when it's talking about deacons, it says, "They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience." So the, that phrase, mystery of the faith, mystery of godliness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... feel, they feel fairly similar in that sense.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the leaders of the church should have a clear understanding of the truth about Jesus, and they should hold to that truth in such a way that their conscience is clear. They should live in such a way that their conscience is clear, that they're living in accordance with that truth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, that makes sense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, that makes sense.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay, so we've put a lot on the line, you know, like the gospel itself-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the truth-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the fact that the church is the house that shows that truth to the community around it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, so, and Paul's writing this letter so that Timothy knows how to order the house so that all that can happen-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that it happens empowered by the gospel. So with that, all that in our heads, now we wanna go back-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the beginning of chapter two and look at how-
Seth: Like full-
David: ... the details that Paul gives-
Seth: Right
David: ... Timothy about how to order the house. [gentle music]
Seth: Okay, so chapter two.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He says, "First of all," so this is a part of the reason why I think it's okay to go back to chapter three-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then come back here 'cause, like, first of all, first of all, about what?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, about-
David: About being-
Seth: ... about ordering your house well, being a good steward of God's house, acting as if you're, um, part of the assembly of the living God.
David: Okay.
Seth: "I urge that prayers and intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people." So the first thing that's required of people of the living God, of the stewards of God's house that are defending the truth, is prayer.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, we should just say, like, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... how it starts-
David: Right
Seth: ... is prayer for all people.
David: Mm-hmm. And then just to reiterate that, he's gonna go on a long little excursus here, and then he's gonna pick up that same thing again, uh, and talk about prayer again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's gonna happen multiple times that he's going to come back to this centrality of prayer for the people of God. Why do you think that's how he starts off?
Seth: Well, what's interesting is Paul immediately narrows the search. The-
David: Oh, it's like all people, but also let me get really specific
Seth: ... well, he, and he specifically na- He's like, "We should pray for all people, but for a moment, let's just talk about kings and those who are in high positions so that we," meaning the household of God, "may live peaceful and quiet lives, godly and dignified in every way."
David: Oh.
Seth: "This is good and pleasing in the sight of God, our Savior."
David: So it's not just prayer in general, which absolutely is a characteristic of the gathered community of Jesus followers.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's here they are praying for the kings and the rulers of their area so that they might adjudicate and have policies in place that allow that church to continue to meet together quietly, peacefully, and pursue their godliness and respectability.
Seth: Yeah. The necessary implication of that is we pray for our governing authorities so that-Our church can continue to be a pillar and buttress for the truth and the good news about Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the r- the reason we pray for that is so that we can continue to talk about the true ruler of the world.
David: Mm.
Seth: Not Caesar, but Jesus. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah, totally. It's like we need to have this place of peace and quiet, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where we're not gonna-
Seth: Good order.
David: Yeah, good order-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, that we can exist so that we can be patient with our nation. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, that's interesting.
David: You know, and, and wait for them to come to Jesus as we faithfully preach the gospel to them.
Seth: And what's interesting, in the, in just this little imaginative universe-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if God is the master of the house of the world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or the house of the church, the first thing He tells us to do is to pray for the highest authorities in our nation as if they are people that respond to our prayers.
David: Mm.
Seth: Does that make sense? Like, it's like God is the master of Rome.
David: Right.
Seth: And He's entrusted Roman policy-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in a sense, to us to be affected by prayer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So by your prayers, Church, you will affect policy that will bring your peace and the spread of the gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh-
David: It's pretty cool.
Seth: It's pretty cool, and it places Roman authority under-
David: The household of God
Seth: ... the household of God. Under the master God, and even under the prayers of God's faithful people.
David: Mm. Yeah, which again, goes back to the whole Jesus gave us a new way to be human [laughs]
Seth: Right, yeah, yeah
David: ... it's like disrupting the power structures.
Seth: Yes.
David: Super cool. Okay. Like that?
Seth: And it, it says this, "Who," God-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... "desires all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
David: Right.
Seth: So this is, why do we pray for all people? Because God wants all people to be saved.
David: Right. 'Cause He's so patient.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Because He's so patient.
David: He's so loving, so patient, He wants all people to be saved. That's amazing.
Seth: And why do we pray for the pe- like, peaceful policies in our government? So that all people can be saved.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there's an evangelistic purpose-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the prayer of God's people that creates a context in which all people can be saved.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think we could pray for our safety and the continuance of our churches, uh, for other motives.
Seth: That's right.
David: You know, I don't think our motives are always this pure, that we would continue to be able to faithfully meet and pray together so that we could preach the gospel to our neighbor. You know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's like we wanna keep being comfortable.
Seth: Right.
David: We want to avoid persecution.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And those aren't... I guess, you know, comfort and not being persecuted aren't intrinsically bad things.
Seth: [laughs] No.
David: But they're not the right motivator for these types of prayers.
Seth: Yeah, like [sighs] yeah, God wants all people to be saved, and He wants us to want all people to be saved.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Right? Like, that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that-
David: And that drives the way we pray.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There is a sense, he says, "So that we could live peaceful and qu- a quiet life," so presumably, it's not, it, as you just said, it's not wrong to pray for the absence of persecution.
David: Right.
Seth: But the reason why the a- absence of persecution is a good thing, because it makes it easier for all people to come to know-
David: Right
Seth: ... the truth about God.
David: Yeah. And I, I remember, like, and this also doesn't preclude faithfulness under calamity. Like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... we need to be faithful in quietness and calamity. [laughs] So just because you might be in a political situation where your go- your government is persecuting the Church, that doesn't mean you get to throw all this out and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no longer pray for your government and no longer be a faithful buttress of truth where you are in your neighborhood. It just gets a lot easier, you know, [laughs] whenever-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... you're not in that situation.
Seth: Yeah. It's interesting that he goes on from here, so we should pray for all people, particularly for our governing authorities, so that all people could be saved, and then he starts talking about God. He says, "Because there is one God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and one mediator between God and man, the, and Christ Jesus." He like grounds the universal access to the good news and the universal command to pray for all people in the fact that God is one. There is only one God.
David: Right. Yeah. The exclusivity, in a sense, of the, of the one true God and the one true path to Him being Jesus should motivate the Church to say, "We have the truth."
Seth: Mm.
David: "There's only one God. There's only one way to Him. No wonder... And Go- and that God, with one way, wants all people to get on that way."
Seth: Oh, I see what you're saying.
David: "And so we better get busy." [laughs]
Seth: Right. I, I heard it, the first way that I heard it was like, because there's one God, that one God must want all people to be saved. If God wanted only part of the people to be saved, then He would have a God for those people and a God for those people.
David: Right, national gods.
Seth: National gods.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: The polytheism of Rome.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you could have that.
David: Right.
Seth: But the fact that there is only one God-
David: Of every nation
Seth: ... means, and there's only one mediator between God and man-
David: Right
Seth: ... the man Christ Jesus, that means there is universal access for all people to be saved. That has to be the case. There's not a God for the Jews and a God for the Gentiles-
David: Right
Seth: ... a God for the rulers and a God for the slaves.
David: A God for those in Thessalonica and those in Ephesus.
Seth: There's one God.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: And through Him, all people can be saved.
David: Yeah, so it's kinda funny, we talked about two sides of the same coin, where it's there is one God who is the God of every nation, and so that's why He desires all to be saved, 'cause He's the God of all people.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: You know, you would have these territorial gods, and those gods would want their own people to be saved, but surely the God of the Jews wouldn't want the Romans to be saved. But He does, and if your-
Seth: Because there's one God
David: ... because there's one God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and it's like, and that, the people who have, who believe in this one God who's the God of every nation know the one way to get to Him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is the mystery of godliness. [laughs]
Seth: Mm.
David: Which we talked about. It's the grounding of the Church itself. It's Jesus Christ.
Seth: Mm.
David: And Him crucified and raised. And so it's like they have the universal God and the universal way to Him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Jesus Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's why they pray that they can keep witnessing in the city, that they can keep being a presence for Him, because they are the carriers of the mystery.Right? That they have the way to God
Seth: I guess I don't frequently think about or praise God or thank God for the, that fact that there is only one of him
David: Hmm. Yeah
Seth: I... You know what I mean? Like
David: Right. Yeah, we... Yeah, we did not grow up with the Shema. Maybe you did in your house, but-
Seth: Maybe
David: ... but, you know, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord, the Lord-
Seth: Lord our God
David: ... is one."
Seth: Yeah
David: And, yeah
Seth: And I don't have, like, polytheism to compare it to.
David: Yeah
Seth: You know what I mean?
David: Right
Seth: So it's like-
David: It's kind of the water you, you swim in
Seth: ... it's either monotheism or no gods. Like, those are my options
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: So I don't think about the difference between there being one god and many gods and why it's good news that there's only one God, like God is one
David: But we, we have theism and atheism
Seth: Yeah
David: We don't really have polytheism, at least in the West
Seth: Yeah
David: Yeah. That's, that is interesting. So why should we rejoice and praise and be drawn to prayer and be fervent to take the gospel to all people because there's one God?
Seth: Because there's one God
David: Like, but why? How does that-
Seth: Because he is the God of all people
David: Oh, oh
Seth: The one God of all people
David: I think I understand
Seth: Right, right, right
David: Let me say it this way. Uh, I think we can get... We can feel really personal about God, and I think that's a blessing
Seth: Yeah
David: Like, Yahweh is my God, right? My Lord and my God, right? He's, he's, he's mine. He's... Right? He belongs to me in that sense. Like, that he's the God of all people, he's m- he's my God
Seth: He's my God, right
David: Um, he's not the God that... You know, I, I think there's some-
Seth: And he's, he's living, uh... He's living in me kind of thing. Yeah
David: Right. So th- that's really good. But then to go, he's also the God of Iranians
Seth: Yeah
David: Right? And, oh, there's so many Iranians that don't know that he's their God
Seth: Right
David: And that he's just patiently waiting to be in a relationship with them and love them, and there's only one. They don't have another god. There's only one g- he's their god and they don't know him
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: And he's theirs
Seth: I think it's interesting. I think I've, uh, I've often talked about, like, heard conversation about the exclusivity of Jesus. Like, there's only one way to salvation.
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: It is the one God, the one man, Christ Jesus
David: Right
Seth: There's only one way, and I've almost been trained to think of that as something that needs to be defended-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... as, like, nobody likes the exclusivity of Christianity
David: Oh
Seth: So we... I need to defend the fact-
David: Right
Seth: ... that there's only one way to be saved, and that's through the one God and one man, Jesus Christ
David: Right. Not many ways up one mountain
Seth: Right
David: Yeah
Seth: And so, like, I, I almost... Like, but the way that Paul seems to be talking about it is like, no, it's self-evidently a good thing that there is only one God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because that means all people can be saved
David: Right. 'Cause what if-
Seth: If there was-
David: What if it w- yeah
Seth: ... thousands of gods-
David: What if Iran's god never died for their sins?
Seth: R- right. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah, it's like-
David: What other god would do that? [laughs] Like, the... We... If... There's only one God, and he's the best one there ever could be. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: It's like, it's, it's good. There is one God for all people. He is the God of all nations-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so come to him
David: Yeah, and he provided the one man, Christ Jesus, who gave up his life as the ransom. Like, that's amazing. Anyway
Seth: Which is the testimony, the, the truth, the, the, the, the gospel
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: And what's interesting about that word ransom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... by the way-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so the one man, God, who saves all people through himself, that word ransom's a slave word.
David: Mm
Seth: So we're talking about at the household, like we're in a household codes section
David: Right
Seth: How does the household of God conduct itself? Well, the household of God conducts itself by remembering that their master has rescued them from a previ- s- slavery, rescued them from the slavery of sin, and made them stewards of a new home, slaves of a new... I mean, Paul will say just that. We're slaves of Christ.
David: Right
Seth: I'm a slave of Christ
David: Yeah
Seth: He, he, he, he's not ashamed to call himself a slave. But, like, we are now un- we're under the employ of a new master. He's ransomed us out of one slavery, put us into the household of a new master
David: Yeah, he's asking us to inhabit that household imagination and see ourselves as part of God's house-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but as ransomed slaves
Seth: Yeah
David: And so let's stop there for a second because we're about to get into the roles of different people inside of this church. But before Paul even lets himself get in there, he says, "Okay, first off, view yourself in the wider culture. Pray for your rulers and authorities that you can continually, patiently preach them the gospel"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: "Now, that's who you are to the world outside. Who are you inside the church? You are a ransomed slave along with every other brother and sister in your church"
Seth: Mm
David: "You all are on that same footing"
Seth: You're all stewards doing the will of your master
David: Yeah, exactly. There's one household god here, and it's the God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the man Christ Jesus, and he has made you a ransomed slave. So there's not moms and sisters in, in that old traditional sense-
Seth: Right, right, right, right, right
David: ... all this different hierarchy
Seth: There's neither man nor woman, slave or free
David: Right
Seth: Like-
David: You are all ransomed slaves, b- blood-bought-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... free but slaved. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... here you are all on the same footing. And then the next thing he's gonna say is, "Now let's talk about roles inside of that"
Seth: Let's talk about how we behave, how the men and the women, people that would've had very defined roles in their old society-
David: Roman societies, yeah
Seth: ... what hap- what happens to those old Roman ways of living when all of you are slaves now?
David: Right. [laughs] That's such an interesting-
Seth: Right
David: ... doorway into this text-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that I've never thought of before. Anyway [laughs]
Seth: Anyway, um, and before he goes on, just to, just to say it, he says, "I am... This is why I was appointed a preacher and apostle to the Gentiles, because God is the God of all people. That's why I-"
David: Ah
Seth: "... was appointed to the Gentiles"
David: Right
Seth: "... because there's one God for all people"
David: Right
Seth: "And so that's why God sent me to the Gentiles, because he's the God of the Gentiles"
David: Right
Seth: His, his own ministry proves the point that God has ransomed pe- all people. So the first steward of God's house to get any mention is, are the men. "I desire that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarrelling"
David: So there we go again
Seth: Yeah
David: The first thing he's gonna say is pray
Seth: Yeah
David: Yeah. So he's gonna talk to the men first-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the first thing he's gonna tell them to do is pray
Seth: Instead of being angry or, or fighting
David: Right
Seth: Which I think is interesting. Like, why-
Seth: Tell them not to fight and be angry, presumably because the men of the church were being fi- were fighting and being angry.
David: Yeah, it seems like a pointless statement if that wasn't true.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, and it's maybe even too because it's the opposite of prayer.
David: Oh, I've never thought about anger and quarreling as the opposite of prayer.
Seth: You could resent your Roman overlord, so you could pray for them.
David: Ah, yes.
Seth: Um, you could fight with the leaders of your church, or you could pray that they would establish justice. [laughs] You know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: That's, that's awesome. I, yeah, I don't- even just, I'm just thinking practically for my life, it's just like there's such a great response to so many of the hard parts of life. And I never [laughs] I don't think I've seen-
Seth: Right
David: ... there's like two f- there's a fork in every road, and you can engage or pray. [laughs]
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: Like, like, I mean, I wanna run-
Seth: And, uh-
David: ... quickly to prayer more often
Seth: ... not, not to speak ill of my gender, but, like, aren't anger and, like, fighting, like-
David: We're, we're good at it
Seth: ... we're good at it.
David: Men are good at it.
Seth: Men... And so it also kinda makes sense almost. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know? Like, I don't wanna really make that point.
David: No.
Seth: But, like, there is a sense in which that I do struggle with anger.
David: Right.
Seth: And that-
David: I like a good debate.
Seth: Like, I love a good debate.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Because that was, like, so much of, like, early marriage counseling was like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... you know, said n- not everything has to be a debate, and you don't always have to win. You know, like-
David: Wait, what?
Seth: Wait, what do you mean?
David: You can pray for your wife. [laughs]
Seth: Oh.
David: Oh.
Seth: The third way. [laughs] There's something important not to get lost, though-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in, in our jokes, is that, um, the men that were fighting and quarreling-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we've already been given a set of characters who are fighting and quarreling.
David: Right.
Seth: Hymenaeus and Alexander-
David: Right
Seth: ... the false teachers going on and on about their speculative understanding of the Torah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... creating division in the church.
David: Yeah, it'd be unhelpful to generalize this to every single gendered male in the church in Ephesus is a angry quarreler.
Seth: Yeah, not, not helpful-
David: Not helpful
Seth: ... or probably not true. There were godly men in Ephesus-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Timothy being one of them.
David: Right.
Seth: You know, like, so I think it's, I think Paul's also narrowing in on the character of the false teachers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... as he starts talking about men and women in general.
David: I think you're absolutely right.
Seth: Or like, or like he talks about men and women in-
David: Yes
Seth: ... generalities, also focusing in on the false teachers as they presented themselves.
David: That's right, yeah. So then he kinda does the same thing. He moves to women.
Seth: Yes, that's right.
David: Yeah, and he tells them, uh, "Likewise also women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he goes on to describe probably the subset of women in this church who are-
Seth: Who-
David: ... are either sympathetic to or a part of the false teaching that's going on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... just like he did with the angry, quarreling men.
Seth: Yep.
David: And he's identifying them. They dress a certain way. They're adorned with gold and pearls. They braid their hair for some reason.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And they m- most importantly out of all of that, the most important thing to flag is they're not adorned with one thing. [laughs] Right?
Seth: Right.
David: Good works.
Seth: Good works.
David: They're not adorned with good works.
Seth: Yeah. It's interesting all the way up in 1 Timothy 5, we're gonna get into this conversation about widow care ministry, and there's this group of younger widows who we're told don't adore, adorn themselves with good works, but they, uh, are led away by their passions, and they do all these other things. There's a sense in which there's probably a very specific group of women-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Paul has in mind, a group of, uh, ostentatiously dressed widows-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who are acolytes of these false teachers who are causing problems, clothing themselves with things other than good works.
David: Right, and, and so it bring, this text brings up interesting questions.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, with the men, it's a little easier because it's like quarreling and wrongful anger-
Seth: Those are bad things
David: ... those are bad things. Don't do those things. Pray instead, right? [laughs] With, with this, it's, it's a little confusing 'cause, like, okay, so women cannot wear jewelry or-
Seth: Right
David: ... nice clothes?
Seth: I was wrong the other day when I braided my daughter's hair? Yeah.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, oh, braided hair is now off the table?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, what's going on in Ephesus that Paul is responding to? That's what we need to be thinking-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... about always.
Seth: There, there could be, like, a general cultural, braided hair was the sign of a prostitute, maybe.
David: Maybe.
Seth: Maybe.
David: Right.
Seth: Something like that.
David: Yeah, maybe, absolutely. But, like, what, we have to ask the question, what's going on-
Seth: Right
David: ... in Ephesus that's causing this? And there's, there's, there's a host of opinions. Um, and so we'll give one, uh, like possibility, but just take it as a possibility.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think the best thing to do here is this is the type of thing that would've been happening-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... even if it's not the exact thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Because we can't transport ourselves back 2,000 years and be there.
Seth: Yes.
David: We only have other literature that was written in this time and, and stuff to go on like that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to reconstruct the historical background here. But at the bare minimum, what might have been going on is, um, what some scholars have called the new Roman woman. And-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... um, they were this, um, group of, of women, kind of like this cultural movement, and it was a minority group that might have been happening in this time. And they were starting to go against some of the Roman household codes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which we've said extensively was-
Seth: Right
David: ... a big no-no. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, right.
David: And would've been really damaging. And what's interesting is the parallel that that has in the church in Ephesus here.
Seth: Right, because these new Roman women presumably would be dressing a certain way-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... acting a certain way, um, in order to buck the system of Rome.
David: Right.
Seth: And then these same Roman women might have found a place in the Christian church because the rules are a little more lax there, it seems, right?
David: Yeah, may- maybe. Yeah, maybe. Um, yeah, but or the other way to look at it is, yeah, you have these, these Gentile, or I should say unbelieving Roman women who are dressing a certain way, starting to speak up in circles they shouldn't speak up in according to Roman codes, and going to men only places that they weren't-
Seth: Oh, okay
David: ... supposed to go.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then you have these Christian women-Right? Who are, by the grace of the gospel, afforded some of those liberties.
Seth: Right.
David: They are now slaves with everybody.
Seth: Right.
David: They're on equal footing.
Seth: I mean, the next verse says, "Let women learn."
David: Right.
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: Yeah. Yeah, it's like that didn't always happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, now they are equal with men, like they get to go to the same places that men go.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They get to go to church with them, and so do the slaves.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And they get to prophesy and pray and talk and be engaged with, and it's weird. Like, to the Roman society, it would be very weird what's happening in the church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so what some scholars think might have happened is they might l- have, uh, let some of that go to their head, and they're looking out at wider Roman society and be like, "Oh, I'm like these new Roman women who are-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... liberated and free, and they have power, and they dress this certain way." And they start acclimating not to the household of God, but to this new counter household of Rome that's starting-
Seth: Right
David: ... to pop up.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And so maybe.
Seth: Right.
David: It could be that. It could be that braided hair in Ephesus was a symbol for something.
Seth: Right.
David: That pearls and gold, to get those-
Seth: I think what-
David: ... in Ephesus, you had to, you had to, like, go into slave trade to get them, you know? [laughs]
Seth: What's interesting about either of those-
David: Right
Seth: ... op- options is that there seems to be, like, an evangelistic concern.
David: Exactly.
Seth: That some of the women in, in the church are acting in a way that isn't clothing themselves with godliness and good works, but in something other than what accords with women that are part of the assembly of the living God, and slaves to master Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, they're, they're not acting the way Jesus would have them act.
David: Right.
Seth: They're not clothing themselves in good works. Instead, they're clothing themselves in things like gold and braided hair. Whatever it means-
David: Yep
Seth: ... it's contrary to being part of the assembly of the living God-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in Paul's time.
David: That's right.
Seth: Right. And so that's what... And so, okay, we said a whole bunch.
David: [laughs]
Seth: The point is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... godliness. Women, be godly. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: He says, "Clothe yourselves in good works, and care about good works more than you care about sticking it to Roman culture, more than you care about-"
David: Dressing a certain way
Seth: ... pa- dressing a certain way, parading your beauty, uh, at church.
David: Whatever was going on behind that.
Seth: It's like, good works.
David: Right. I mean, the... let's say it simply. Men, like false teaching men-
Seth: Pray
David: ... pray. Stop fighting. False teaching women, be godly and adorn yourself with good works.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Super simply.
David: Super simply, that's the thing. Okay.
Seth: And instead of dressing ostentatiously and not doing good works, women should learn. So this is, this is the verse.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Women should learn with- quietly with all submissiveness." Why does it say quietly with all submissiveness?
David: I don't know how else to learn.
Seth: I don't know how else to learn. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's the only way I know how to learn.
Seth: The command here is to learn.
David: Right.
Seth: Which, as you've already said, is not something that women were normal- not always allowed to do.
David: Not always. It wasn't, like, prohibited in Roman society.
Seth: But particularly to a group of false teaching women-
David: Right
Seth: ... they need to learn what-
David: Right
Seth: ... it looks like to live with God as your master and live amongst the household of the living God.
David: Right.
Seth: They need to learn quietly and submissively. And they... And then Paul goes on to say, "I don't permit a woman to teach or to exercise over a man. Rather, she's to ma- remain quiet."
David: Right.
Seth: These women-
David: For [laughs]
Seth: ... because Adam was made first and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
David: So what's on the line here that's really important, and why we should read that whole thing in context, is what's on the line here is deception and false teaching.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? Paul immediately appeals to a story, and he's trying to get the church in Ephesus to see that what happened in Genesis 3 is happening to them again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That-
Seth: What happened in the Garden of Eden was that a false teacher came in and deceived a woman, who deceived other people-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and that was bad.
David: That's bad. He's like, "That's what's happening." You've got, you've got these... You know, you've got Alexander, and you've got these other guys. They're quarreling and going on about myths. You've got this group of ostentatious women, and they are fanning those myths into flame, teaching it to other people.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That happened in the garden, guys. Can we please stop?
Seth: Yes. Please stop.
David: Please stop doing that.
Seth: This is... I mean, and the thing about the Garden of Eden, that was God's first home.
David: Right.
Seth: It was God's first home. He was the master over that first home.
David: That's right.
Seth: And then the same thing is happening again in God's new home full of new creations.
David: He's-
Seth: Don't be this way. Don't do this thing.
David: I, I wanna keep my house in order. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. That's, that's good. That's really good. Um, and then you get this interesting phrase here, um, "Women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control."
Seth: Yeah. This- [laughs]
David: It's... This is one of those mysterious verses in scripture that i- i-
Seth: But-
David: ... evades accurate interpretation.
Seth: But it gets als- I think it gets to the heart of the gospel.
David: Yeah, I mean, really beautifully.
Seth: The, the, the threat of the first h- God's first home-
David: Oh
Seth: ... was a false teacher.
David: Right.
Seth: He came in, he deceived, he broke the unity of God's home, just like these men and women are right here.
David: Right.
Seth: But what did God promise? That there would be a son, born of a woman, who would save the world. So what do these women who are frustrated with whatever's going on there, trying to not learn from Timothy, but argue with Timothy-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... what do they need to do? They need to remember that God has appointed women to be a part of the salvation story-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they should learn what it means to be a godly woman from the man God has put in charge, Timothy.
David: Yeah. I'm thinking so many things right now. I, I just f- you know, it's one of those weird verses that's so weird to me that it just exists out of context in my brain. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I don't know why. It's not being a good Bible reader. But, um, it just... if you just read it straight through, right? Um, Adam was formed first, then Eve. Adam was deceived.
Seth: Was not deceived.
David: Was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor, yet she will be saved through childbearing. So he says-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... right, Adam was formed, then Eve.
Seth: It's...
David: Eve was deceived. Right, taught the evil to Adam. They became transgressors, and then God said that he would save her.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Through what? Through the bearing of a child that would be the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... deceiver crusher, the snake crusher.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is Genesis 3:15.
Seth: Which-
David: Again, proving Paul's point in the first chapter of how Go-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, patient God is.
Seth: Mm, right, right, right.
David: Where he's just like, "You remember how God treated me when I was a blasphemer? He's gonna take all these lying women-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and make them new Eves."
Seth: Yes.
David: Mothers of new kingdoms, like [laughs] new saviors, like...
Seth: And as they-
David: This is amazing
Seth: ... focus around the salvation provided by that son-
David: Right
Seth: ... that child-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as they focus on the gospel, as they major on the majors, what happens? Division that's happening in the church ends. And what's amazing is, now I'm not probably smart enough to-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... get the Greek right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But yet she will be saved through childbearing. There's a whole bunch of debate about that phrase in particular.
David: Oh.
Seth: But one of the ways that you can construct that is by bearing the child.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, like, there's not just saved by the process of having many children-
David: Right
Seth: ... and acting like a good Roman woman and being-
David: Right
Seth: ... prolific in your office.
David: That seems kind of counterproductive-
Seth: Yeah, of-
David: ... to his point.
Seth: Right, it's, it's that there is a child who saves the world, who forgives our sins, who creates a new household of God, who is your master-
David: Yes
Seth: ... who will-
David: Save you
Seth: ... save you. [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I forgot how he said it.
David: Yeah. Okay. You are... I think you have to be right about that, you know, uh, the, the lexical outworking of that-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... one word, you know, whatever.
Seth: Aside.
David: Aside.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Uh, 'cause think about this, the false teachers are caught up in endless discussions about genealogies.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We've already said those genealogies are probably the Genesis genealogies-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is probably why Paul brings up the Genesis story to begin with here.
Seth: Right.
David: So they're debating about these genealogies, which we know here at Spoken Gospel end in Jesus. Matthew made that point.
Seth: Right.
David: Luke made that point, that the genealogies point to Jesus.
Seth: Point to Jesus.
David: We started this podcast saying the secret of godliness, the hidden thing in the genealogies-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... surprise, it's Jesus.
Seth: Is Jesus, yeah.
David: That's what you need to pull out here. And so he looks at the false teachers, these women, and he's like, "You wanna learn something really cool? You wanna just be quiet for a second and let me teach you something really, really cool? You know those genealogies that you've been looking at? In there-
Seth: Mm
David: ... there is salvation in them, and you know what? It's the child that was born."
Seth: Mm.
David: "It's Jesus." Like, he's making the same point.
Seth: Interesting, interesting, interesting.
David: It's the gospel.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And he's saying, like, they will be saved through what? Through those genealogies been, you've been looking at.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not through whatever else weird things you've been doing with them, but it's the simple truth of the mystery of godliness. It's the secret of the gospel.
Seth: That's good.
David: It just gets back to the genealogy thing here-
Seth: Right, that's-
David: ... which is really cool.
Seth: Paul's a little bit smarter than I give him credit for sometimes.
David: Yeah, he's a smart dude.
Seth: It's like-
David: I mean-
Seth: ... every, all of my Biblical allusions are gonna go right back to the genealogies [laughs] that I didn't even know what they were.
David: [laughs] Oh, yeah.
Seth: So, so this is him saying, "Okay, this is the general outline of what's wrong in the church."
David: Yep.
Seth: "This is the way that the false teachers are acting, both the male and female false teachers are acting. Don't act this way. Pray. Remember that there's a child that saves you." Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... "Let's get away from that. Now let me show you what a good leader looks like."
David: Mm.
Seth: And most of chapter three, before he gets to where we started the podcast with, is about what good leaders look like.
David: Yeah. And we'll probably take some time to look at that next week. For now, I wanna end with the question, what is the good news of these commands to the false teachers, the angry, quarreling men, and the lacking good deed, ostentatious, presumably outspoken- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... women in the church that are fanning these deceits into flame? Like, when he tells, when he tells the men to pray, and he tells the women to sit and learn about the child Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, why is that good news that God wants to put His house back in order by telling the loud and loud men and women to pray and be good?
Seth: I think part of the good news is just how simple it is. I mean, men pray to the God who an- hears prayers and answers them. Women live lives not with whatever is fashionable, like with the cha- the, don't like the changing trends of fashion.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, put on the immortal good works of scripture, the ones that last forever. Like, that's the first thing I thought of.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: But I don't know if that's the full answer.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Um-
David: First thing I thought of was, like, the good news it sounds like he's trying to get at here, in part at least, is that you don't have to repeat what happened in the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the, there was a lie from a false teacher that got fanned into flame by a woman and took the whole world down.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Guys, we don't have to do that again.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, it's like it, we aren't just a household, we aren't just an assembly of the living God, we are a new creation.
David: Right.
Seth: A new Eden. Churches can be new Edens.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Places where all of the needs are met, of, are, the people are met, and we experience the goodness, grace, and love of God.
David: Right, and, like, what do we need to do to make sure we don't end up in the post-fall world, but we get back to Eden? [laughs]
Seth: Remember the promise given to the first woman.
David: That's it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Remember the child.
Seth: Remember the child.
David: Remember that little secret in the Old Testament.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's Jesus. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's already done, so g- there's nothing else to search for or-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or try to make up myths and endless genealogies about. There's no new form of godliness to achieve. There's no type of adornment you have to put on your body. There's no debate you have to win. It's all done in Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's the mystery, is it's done. The secret is, it is finished.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you have a patient God who did it all for you. And so we can just stop fighting, and we can pray. We can stop trying to impress each other, and we can just do good works for each other.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, we can stop trying to have a shouting contest, and we can learn in quietness and submission-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... under the Word of God.
Seth: It's so interesting that he appeals to the creation story because I don't often think of my church as a potential new Eden.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I don't think of threats to that church as potential new Satans, you know?
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: I mean, John does. He calls people-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... who are false teachers antichrists.
David: Yep.
Seth: You know, like people who are against Jesus. Um, and it makes me hopeful. I think, like, being part of the household of God with God as my master, like, okay, I have a, I have a job to do. I have a role to accomplish. I'm a steward of God's purposes. Okay, that's cool.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I've got a purpose. I'm indwelt by the Holy Spirit, part of the assembly or God, whom God lives inside. Okay, that's really cool. But, like, being a part of a new creation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... having a role in creating and sustaining a new creation inside our churches feels really powerful and really hopeful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I want that, even if I don't quite know what it looks like, boots on the ground. But at the very least, like, people's needs are met. Love that issues from a pure heart is seen-
David: Right
Seth: ... consistently. Uh, we don't fight. We don't quarrel.
David: Yeah, and I think that's the other part of the good news that I see here, the other gospel turn that I see in this text.
Seth: That I don't have to go to church and feel like I have to measure up to the other people, because I can only imagine-
David: Right
Seth: ... like if you're going to church dressed like that, everyone else is kind of feeling left out-
David: Right
Seth: ... on some level. But like-
David: One, yeah, one of our staff writers, uh, Christine-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we were asking her opinion on this, and she was saying, like, "I think the good news here is that you don't have to be fancy to impress God."
Seth: [laughs] Right. Yeah.
David: You know? And I'm like, "Yeah, that's good news."
Seth: It's like, yeah, I mean, Adam and Eve were naked. They didn't-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... they like, I mean... [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: So it's like, there's like-
David: All they were adorned with were good works. [laughs]
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: That's all they had on.
Seth: They're, I mean, I think that's, is part, like could you imagine going to church and not having to care about-
David: Right
Seth: ... fighting with the other guys at church and, like, getting in arguments with the guy who disagreed with you last time?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Can you imagine going and not caring what you look like or what other people look like?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that you're just there to love one another, to serve God, to be, experience the joy and power of the Holy Spirit? That feels like Eden.
David: Yeah, it does. And I think, yeah, part of that good news is as we discover the mystery of godliness, the secret of the gospel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is just Jesus came, He died, He rose, He ascended, He's coming back, the more we do that, the more God's house gets put in order.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The more we meditate on the gospel, the less we quarrel, the more we're clothed with good deeds, and the more we are happy to sit in humble submission under that teaching and just be changed by it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the gospel puts God's house in order. So if, like, your church is in array, in a disarray, like, you need the gospel, and just sit under it, and He's patient to reorder His house, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: So okay. Well, we'll take a look next week, I suppose, at overseers and deacons, and maybe we'll have more to say about the mystery of godliness.
Seth: Hope so.
David: I hope so. But thank you guys for joining us on this episode in 1 Timothy chapter 2, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
