Seth: [upbeat music] When you preach the Bible, preach the gospel, and have it transform you, God uses you to save other people.
David: Mm.
Seth: You will save other people because that's how God saves people.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: It's through people like you, Timothy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So do the hard work of doing it, and by your hard work, you are guaranteed that you're saving yourself and other people.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our time in 1 Timothy. Seth, how are you? What are you excited about today?
Seth: I feel super mischievous.
David: Oh, no. [laughs]
Seth: 'Cause I am going to-
David: That's never good. [laughs]
Seth: I'm gonna get you to say something on air that I don't think [laughs]
David: I would ever say normally?
Seth: You would ever say normally.
David: Okay. What's that?
Seth: Uh, I think the main point of 1 Timothy 4 is that it's good news that you can strive and toil to save yourself. [laughs]
David: Okay, that... I'm pretty sure that's exactly the-
Seth: The um-
David: ... the thing that Spoken Gospel exists to disprove.
Seth: [laughs] No, Paul literally says that through diligence, perseverance, toil, and striving, you can save yourself and others.
David: [laughs] That sounds so wrong.
Seth: So by the end of the podcast, we're gonna be able to say that with a straight face-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and feel good about it.
David: Oh.
Seth: That's the point-
David: All right
Seth: ... of today's podcast. [laughs]
David: I'm not comfortable with this-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... just so you know. But okay. Ge- get me there. Uh, and actually, like, I need to catch up and get my head back in 1 Timothy-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in chapter 4. So what's going on? Uh, where, what, what has been said? Where are we now?
Seth: So Paul is addressing his protege, Timothy-
David: Right
Seth: ... about how to lead his church well. And consistently throughout the book, or the letter, he, he has been m- giving Timothy this metaphor of the church as a house or as a home.
David: Or the household of God.
Seth: The household of God.
David: We've been going there. Right.
Seth: And he keeps addressing different members of that household.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he's talked about the leaders of that household, the elders and the deacons. He's talked about members of that household, the women and the men. And here, again, he's gonna talk about really not so much the household and taking care of the household so much, but what Timothy as a person needs to do, who's been placed in charge of this particular household of God.
David: Mm.
Seth: What it takes to be a leader of God's house.
David: Okay, so this, we, we've focused on the false teachers. We've focused-
Seth: Mm
David: ... on the elders and deacons, right? And so are you saying, like, here we're focusing on Timothy?
Seth: Yeah, in a large degree, but he, Paul likes to go back to old themes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And so the first five verses are going back to the idea of-
David: He's a-
Seth: ... false teachers
David: ... he's a Jewish writer, after all.
Seth: He's a Jewish writer. He's just gotta keep circling back around-
David: That's right. [laughs]
Seth: ... until you get the point, and you're a little bit tired of it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But we do learn-
David: I'm a little bit tired.
Seth: We do learn some new information about the false teachers.
David: Okay. What's that?
Seth: Uh, it's chapter four, verse one. "The Spirit expressly says," which just is a funny phrase.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, when does the Holy Spirit expressly say anything? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, but continuing, "That in the latter times some will depart from the faith, devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teaching of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared."
David: So okay, so does that mean the Spirit expressly says that there will, more false teachers will come up?
Seth: That's right. And, and I mean-
David: And follow the, the teachings of demons.
Seth: You, you can't highlight "Spirit expressly says" and then expect me not to have questions about that.
David: Continue.
Seth: But, like, what, what does that mean?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, well, uh, my, my guess is he's just quoting Jesus.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: When, when-
David: 'Cause Jesus talked about false teachers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Oh.
Seth: He says, like, "False teachers will come, but don't worry. The Spirit of truth will dwell inside you and tell you everything that you need to fe- to, to hear-
David: I see
Seth: ... to say and do."
David: So, like, the Spirit expressly says could be shorthand for Paul to say, like, the Bible says or God says or Jesus says.
Seth: Or Jesus said in his time on Earth.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: And I think there's maybe some echoes of, like, those last words of Jesus, like the John 14 to 17. Like, he's talking to his disciples after the last meal on his way to the cross.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's telling them about the Holy Spirit. Ton of John's messages about the Holy Spirit are contained in those final hours.
David: Right.
Seth: Also in the context of false teachers and-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... being falsely accused. So I, I think maybe that's what's going on.
David: Okay. So the Holy Spirit through Jesus has expressly warned us that false teachers are going to come.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Timothy's l- living proof that that's true.
Seth: Right. And I think it's interesting that he calls it the teaching of demons.
David: Yeah, yeah, what's going on? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Well, because, and we've talked about this before, that from the beginning of time, the Garden of Eden-
David: Right
Seth: ... the first false teaching that happened in the world was from a demon-
David: Right
Seth: ... from the serpent.
David: From Satan.
Seth: False teaching always comes from-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the demonic.
David: Right, yeah, that's their main thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, got it. So we have demonic false teaching, and it's not only happening, Jesus told us it was going to happen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it's been happening all the way back at history past, and it will continue until Jesus returns. So just-
David: And is, is Paul bringing this up to Timothy to, like, encourage him? Like...
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] Like...
Seth: Right, it doesn't seem that, that encouraging.
David: I mean, well, it could be encouraging. Like, "Dude, this was, this was supposed to happen." Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "This was always the plan. Jesus told you this is gonna happen. Don't be thrown off guard. It's not because you, you're a failed leader. It's not because your church is the weird one."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "This was always going to happen. Jesus warned us. The Spirit expressly said this was gonna happen."
Seth: I think there's some comfort in knowing that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Timothy's not experiencing anything new. Maybe, like, in the purpose of this letter, it's to introduce a new facet of the false teaching we haven't heard before.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: So it's like, I think you're, I think you're right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Paul wants to encourage Timothy, like, "Don't, don't freak out, Timothy. This is the way that all churches are gonna be throughout the rest of time." Like, you're not doing something... You're not failing-
David: Right
Seth: ... because false teachers are present.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I also think he's introducing to us a new aspect of the false teaching that we haven't heard so far.
David: Okay.
Seth: Verse 3, "These false teachers, these teachings of demons forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." So these, these two external behaviors that are supposed to promote a type of godliness-
David: Mm. And those two are-
Seth: Forbidding marriage.
David: Yeah. No marriage.
Seth: No marriage, and abstaining from certain foods.
David: Okay. Why those two? Those seem extremely obscure.
Seth: Well [sighs] welcome-
David: Is that the question?
Seth: I mean, that's the question. That's the question.
David: Oh. Oh no, I stepped in it. Okay.
Seth: Well, because it's like, what is the false teaching that Timothy's experiencing-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... in, uh, in Ephesus? So everybody has different opinions-
David: Right
Seth: ... where it came from or why it happened. My best guess is it goes back to chapter one, where we talked about these false teachers are going on endlessly about genealogies.
David: Which we said was, like, back to Genesis, right?
Seth: Goes back to the Genesis story.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And we already have this reference to demons, which seems to take us back to-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... the Garden, too, where the first false teacher was. And what was the state of human, humanity in the Garden? Well, weren't they vegetarians in the Garden?
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: Oh, and-
David: Right
Seth: ... and also, were Adam and Eve actually technically married? Did, did, the institution-
David: They didn't have any, they didn't have any kids in the Garden, it doesn't talk about.
Seth: Right. Like, there's no-
David: So
Seth: ... institution of marriage in the Garden, so perhaps the real, the true godliness these false teachers are promoting is this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Edenic type of godliness that forbids marriage, forbids meat. You've gotta go back to the Garden-
David: I see
Seth: ... in order to have a truly godly life.
David: Okay. So they're trying to, like, create Eden again?
Seth: Yeah. Perhaps.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. It's like, it's... And that's where all the speculation comes in.
David: Okay, okay.
Seth: Like, uh-
David: But at the bare minimum, we can say most likely these two prohibitions came from whatever weird reading of Genesis they were already doing.
Seth: I think so.
David: Okay. And I think that-
Seth: And that makes sense
David: ... explains why Paul keeps going back to the Creation narratives to-
Seth: To-
David: To, like, say, "This is how God's house should be ordered."
Seth: Right.
David: Okay. 'Cause he's like, he's not saying, like, "Ignore the Creation narratives."
Seth: No.
David: He's saying, "You're not reading them right."
Seth: Well-
David: Which is what he said in chapter one.
Seth: Well, is... Yeah. He actually said, "You guys claim to be experts in the law. You claim to be experts in the Creation story."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But you've actually forgotten the purpose of the Creation story."
David: Right.
Seth: The purpose of the Creation story, or the purpose of the Hebrew law in general-
David: Right
Seth: ... was to expose that we cannot do enough to save ourselves. [laughs]
David: We can't toil and strive to save ourselves and others?
Seth: And did we-
David: Is that what you just said, Seth?
Seth: Uh, yes, that's what I just said. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, and we can only trust in Jesus alone to save us.
David: I think I've got you.
Seth: Uh, you might.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Maybe, maybe. We'll see.
David: Um, okay. So we've got, yeah, the, th- uh, the Spirit has expressly said that new demonic teachings are gonna rise up, and those are being manifested in Timothy's church through two different weird teachings on forbidding marriage and abstinence from certain foods, which we are guessing is probably meat, and might take us back to some kind of restoration of Eden story.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. That gets us through-
Seth: To-
David: ... verse 3.
Seth: Verse... [laughs] Right.
David: [laughs] Okay.
Seth: And yeah, so Paul's response to this is that they're going back to the genealogies in Genesis to achieve some sort of spiritual godliness or spiritual vigor that is not possible in the teachings of Paul. But he's saying, "Don't you know that everything that God made was created to be received with thankfulness?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Verse 4, "Everything God made was good, and nothing is to be rejected if it's received with thanksgiving. It's made holy by the word of God and through prayer." So again, they're, just like they did with the Hebrew law on a more general sense, they're doing it, it again with this more specific command. You're misunderstanding what the Creation story was about.
David: Mm.
Seth: The Creation story wasn't meant to tell you what type of food you can eat-
David: Oh
Seth: ... and what type of marriage relationship is, marriage relationships are supposed to look like.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's meant to tell you that God is a generous God who creates good things for His people.
David: And that no matter how much He does that, y- the human heart rejects it.
Seth: It's-
David: 'Cause it's, because we said from chapter one that the law is there to show us, to convict us of our evil.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's like you have this big, magnanimous, kind God, and w- we humans rejected Him. And-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... your response to that story should be like, "Oh man, I, I reject God, too."
Seth: And I should accept what He gives me-
David: Right
Seth: ... with thanksgiving and, and thankfulness.
David: I see.
Seth: Not with skepticism and abstention.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: The, yeah, the point of the Garden of Eden story that Paul's trying to get at here is, is not that we should, like you said, like, abstain from marriage and not eat meat. It's that could you imagine, just for a second, if you were in the Garden of Eden, in a place where God provided everything for good?
Seth: Mm. Mm-hmm.
David: What should your proper response be? Thank you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's... And he's like, "The way to live in Eden now is to receive all the good things God gives with thanksgiving and prayer."
Seth: Right.
David: That would've been the way Adam and Eve stayed in Eden.
Seth: Right, and that's the purpose of the Creation story in large part.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I don't know if it's necessarily in this moment Paul is trying to get them to realize, "You failed to be thankful," although I think that's implied.
David: Sure.
Seth: But I think they're making a similar type of mistake that Paul pointed out at the beginning. In the very beginning, they were misunderstanding God's law, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we talked about how they were pri- fo- they were focusing on the parts of the law that made them feel less guilty when the law was written for guilty people-
David: Right
Seth: ... to show them that there was a way to atone for their guilt and be made right with God.
David: Mm.
Seth: They missed the point.
David: Right.
Seth: Similarly in the Creation story, what is the Creation story supposed to tell us?
David: Mm.
Seth: That God is good, that He gives good gifts to His people, that all of Creation is bent towards the flourishing of humanity, and they're rejecting it? Why? Because they think they're more godly than God?
David: Mm.
Seth: That's just ridiculous. They're misunderstanding the most basic elements of the Hebrew scriptures.
David: Right.
Seth: They don't know what they're talking about, in other words.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: Endless myths, mindless babble, old wives' tales, as Paul keeps-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, calling it.
David: And so he ends on this verse 5 here, uh, where he says, like, everyth- "Nothing's bad if it's received with thanksgiving." And then he says this: "For it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."So just a little, little history-
Seth: Okay
David: ... for David here.
Seth: Like personal history?
David: Personal history.
Seth: Okay.
David: Is the, these two verses were the verses I always heard, uh, for when I asked why do we pray before every meal?
Seth: And this was it?
David: And this was it. It's, well, everything's good if it's received with thanksgiving, because then it's made holy by the word of God and by prayer. And so we speak the word of God over it, we receive it with thanksgiving, and we pray-
Seth: Oh
David: ... or else it's unholy food entering our bodies.
Seth: It makes sense of the way my dad prayed too. Like he would say-
David: Oh
Seth: ... "I, I receive this with thanks-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that it has been sanctified."
David: Ah, yeah, there you go.
Seth: And like he's using, receiving-
David: He's using it
Seth: ... with thanksgiving for it was made holy by the word of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and prayer. Like sanctified's the King James Version.
David: Right.
Seth: I, yeah, I bet you 100-
David: Guaranteed
Seth: ... [laughs] dollars right now.
David: [laughs]
Seth: $100.
David: Your dad listens to this podcast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He might cash in on that.
Seth: He might ca- [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I me- I didn't mean the whole audience.
David: He's like, he's like, "That was in ASV, man."
Seth: [laughs] I bet you, David.
David: But, like, not to put you toe-to-toe with your dad now, but is that-
Seth: Sorry, Dad. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Is that, is that the right reading of this? Like, that like, is this supposed to be- become like, "Oh, so pray over every meal." Like, what's, what's this supposed to do to me as a person in relation to being a thankful receiver of God's gifts and God's good world? How do I properly be in Eden in, as opposed to these false teachers?
Seth: I... What it's making me think of is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians and Romans about food offered to idols.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because there he talks about how we know an idol is nothing.
David: Nothing.
Seth: Um, but it's meant to be received.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And you receive it with thankfulness from God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and you pray over it, and you can receive it just as it is.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, and the only thing that should constrain your liberty in eating something offered to idol is the conscience of other people.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so in that sense, there is a knowledge of the word of God and a attitude of prayerful consumption- [laughs]
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that makes things that other people say are wrong-
David: Mm
Seth: ... right for you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or do you know what I mean? Like, like-
David: Yeah, okay, okay
Seth: ... there's like this sense that everything God made is good, even food offered to idols. God made that good food. It's been offered to whatever shrine in the marketplace.
David: Right.
Seth: Well, how do you receive that? I know that idol is nothing. The word of God has taught me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that idol is nothing.
David: I mean, yeah.
Seth: And then I pray over it. Like, "God, thank you for the food that you provided me in this meal. I know it all comes from you. Amen."
David: Right.
Seth: Right? Like that's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kinda the way that I'm thinking about it.
David: That makes sense. I mean, I think my closest parallel, and this is probably just me, but my closest parallel to this is like when I know the food I'm eating, whether because of the store I bought it from or the restaurant I'm at, probably wasn't sourced ethically.
Seth: Okay. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
David: Right? And I'm just like, "Uh, I know this is some jam-packed chicken farm or some corn-fed cow."
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? And like, I'm like, "Ah." And I mean, I think the only time I'm able to like get over that [laughs] over my own conscience is when I'm like, "But God, I'm just gonna thank you for this anyway."
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, does that make it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... holy to me? [laughs]
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Or, yeah, I don't know. That's just an analog. I'm trying to like get there 'cause we don't have food sacrificed to idols here-
Seth: Oh, we do
David: ... in the West. Oh, we do.
Seth: Halal.
David: Halal f- food.
Seth: Halal food. All halal food is prepared in accordance with Muslim tradition, offered to Allah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, so like we actually have it all the time. Every time you eat Mediterranean food, every ti- most like grocery stores, a lot of the food is halal.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: So it's prepared in a way that's acceptable for the worship of Allah.
David: Interesting.
Seth: So like we actually-
David: Okay
Seth: ... this actually happens all the time.
David: Okay, okay. I can go, I can go, I can get there.
Seth: So right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So anyway, but again, that's ne- we might be getting off a rabbit trail-
David: Sure
Seth: ... because we went, we went 1 Corinthians and Romans [laughs] about food offered to idols.
David: [laughs]
Seth: When really here it's like abstaining from certain foods with a strange reference to the creation story.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think maybe we can get ourselves out of the hole simply by saying the false teachers misunderstood the creation story-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and were using it as a justifications for certain exterior moral signs-
David: Rules, yeah
Seth: ... and, uh, observances.
David: Okay.
Seth: But that's not the point of the creation story.
David: Right.
Seth: The point of the creation story is to tell you that everything that God made was for your good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God called it good by His word. So when you pray, thank God for that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's, it's for you. It's been sanctified. It's been made clean.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's what sanctified means in a sense.
David: Right.
Seth: Like been set apart. It's been made clean. I think that's all we need to say-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is like those things that they say have been made in, are unpure by the world because they weren't in Eden, that's not true.
David: Right.
Seth: They were made good by God, and when we pray, they're made clean for us.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think that's just-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the simple way to say it.
David: All right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. Is there, uh, for us, is there like a gospel turn here where you've got Jesus telling us that demonic teachers will rise up, and they'll teach us to abstain from the good things He has for us, and that's not what Jesus wants for us. He wants us to enjoy the good things He's made with thanksgiving.
Seth: Yeah, I-
David: Like, what's... Like, where, uh, can you explicitly walk us through maybe like what's-
Seth: Well-
David: ... what's the good news there?
Seth: Well, it's the good news that our, we have a good father, [laughs] you know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That He's given us things to enjoy. You have an answer? [laughs]
David: The old switcheroo.
Seth: The old switcheroo. [laughs]
David: Um, man, I don't know. I... As I was walking through that just now, I was like, well, I think, I guess it's good news that in Jesus everything is good. Like, there's something there I think-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that even, even he proclaimed like-
Seth: Right
David: ... all food clean.
Seth: That's what I was thinking.
David: Right.
Seth: You know, whenever it-
David: He proclaimed all food sanctified.
Seth: Right, exactly right.
David: Like made, yeah, made acceptable for us.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. And like because for a Jewish person to abstain from certain kinds of food in observance of the Torah, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, it was a picture of their set apartness from the nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, oh, we eat this diet to show that we're not like the nations.
Seth: Mm.
David: It was meant to show Israel that they were distinct-
Seth: Mm
David: ... even by what they ate, so that might, they might see themselves as distinct-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... under the Lord. And-
Seth: It wasn't because pork was bad for you.
David: Right, that it was-
Seth: It was-
David: Yeah, that it was bad, right.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, no, God made it good.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But He told Israel not to eat it. In order just to show-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that they were different.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so I'm like, and then when Jesus said he made all food clean, that was in the context of him accepting Gentiles into-
Seth: Mm
David: ... his fold in Acts 10. And so I'm like, "There's something here probably-"
Seth: Mm
David: ... even with the false teachers, that food is never just about food [laughs] you know, especially in this culture.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: That they were saying something about... I mean, they were excluding others. They're like, "Oh, you eat that kind of food? We don't do that."
Seth: Right. You're not-
David: You're not as godly
Seth: ... you're not as godly. Yeah, right.
David: You're not as godly as we are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I guess the good news there is, like, in Jesus, it doesn't matter who you are or what you eat. You know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, if you have Him, it's good. Like-
Seth: Yeah. Yeah
David: ... that's, there's good news there.
Seth: There's good news there.
David: Yeah. So I don't know, there, there's probably lots more, but.
Seth: Well, yeah, and just, I mean, and, and the, the basic gospel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that there's no external performance that you need to perform in order to be accepted by God or to accept His good gifts.
David: Mm. Yes.
Seth: Like, you don't need to abstain from marriage.
David: Right.
Seth: You don't need to be a nun. You don't need, you know, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... you don't need to perform-
David: To eat vegan. Yep
Seth: ... eat vegan in order for God to love you more.
David: Right. He loves vegans.
Seth: He loves [laughs] vegans.
David: And He loves nuns.
Seth: He loves nuns. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's the thing, He loves vegans and nuns. [instrumental music]
David: So you've said it twice now, and maybe this is a good way to enter into our next secti- section, where you started the podcast saying, "David, by the end of this podcast, you're gonna say that toiling and striving can save yourself and save others, and that's gonna be good news."
Seth: Yeah.
David: But twice already in this first section, you said that we can't work, and it's not about external things-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the gospel saves us, which is, you know-
Seth: Which-
David: ... the whole reason Spoken Gospel exists.
Seth: Yeah
David: So maybe here in the next section, we can talk about w- how to get to this place of toiling and striving will save you and others.
Seth: So let's get to accepting the truth that it is good news that we can strive to save ourselves.
David: I don't wanna get there. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Um, here, here's the next verse-
David: Okay
Seth: ... verse six. "If you put these things before the brothers," so what I think he's referring to here is if you put this correct teaching about creation before-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the brothers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then in the broader context of these false teachers, if you put the correct teaching about the purpose of the law and about God's world before the brothers, "you will be a good servant of Jesus Christ."
David: Mm.
Seth: So he's just encouraging Timothy, continue in the good work of teaching rightly in the context of these false teachers. "Being trained in the words of the faith and the good doctrine you have followed. Have nothing to do with the irreverent, silly myths."
David: Wow.
Seth: What irreverent, silly myths? Abstaining from certain types of food, abstaining from marriage, going endlessly about the genealogies.
David: So, such a weird command from Paul.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because you would think he'd be like, "Hey, go correct those dudes."
Seth: Right.
David: He's like, "No, just teach the truth."
Seth: Teach the truth. And then rather than-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... teaching against those things-
David: Right
Seth: ... train yourself for godliness.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so he is going to go all in on this idea where Tim- he's exhorting Timothy, telling Timothy to train himself in the correct teaching and the godly behavior of his own personal life.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's what the whole next section's about.
David: Okay.
Seth: Concentrate, train on the training and on your godliness. Over and over again, he says it, uh, at so many times. He tells him to train in verses six, seven, and eight, to toil and strive in verse 10, to devote himself in verse 13, to practice and immerse himself in the doctrine and in godliness in verse-
David: Mm
Seth: ... 15, to keep a close watch on his conduct and persist in doing good in verse 16. And then at the very end, he'll s- of Timothy, he'll say, "Fight the good fight."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there is this persi- like, this persistent, dogged diligence that Paul is just impressing on Timothy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in this next section.
David: Okay, so clearly all those verbs and-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... commands you just gave communicate that persistent, um, toil and s-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... fight that Timothy needs to have.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it, just to be clear, it wasn't against the false teachers.
Seth: No. Yeah.
David: He's not, "Toil, strive, fight against those false teachers." It was toil, strive, fight for, and you said two things.
Seth: The words of the faith. The good doctrine-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... the right doctrine, and godliness.
David: So good doctrine, like, w- what's a better way-
Seth: I mean-
David: What, what we believe or-
Seth: I, I mean, he says-
David: ... truth?
Seth: ... um, you could say truth in the words of the faith. Uh-
David: The words of the faith. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, he, I mean, he, sometimes he just says the faith.
David: The faith. So what we believe about Jesus.
Seth: Yeah. And I mean, we've talked about this dual relationship between right doctrine and right behavior several different times-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... throughout the podcast. Like-
David: I think of 1 John really quickly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I mean, we talked about the mystery of godliness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The mystery of godliness in chapter three-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... which is that Jesus died, was risen from the grave, and that leads to a certain type of moral lifestyle. Like, that-
David: Right. This-
Seth: ... that, that, like, the proclamation of the gospel leading to a godly life-
David: Mm
Seth: ... has been something that Paul's talked about multiple times already.
David: Right. So he's, okay, so he wants him to toil, strive, and fight for good theology-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and good morality.
Seth: Yep. That's a great way to say it.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That makes sense. I just needed, like, two quick words.
Seth: Morality. I like godliness more than morality.
David: Yeah, I get that.
Seth: Because I think, well, one, and we might talk about this next time, but it could be that the false teachers were, the godliness was their word.
David: Oh.
Seth: "Do you wanna know how to be really godly? Let's go back to the, the thing God first created," the garden.
David: So Paul might be trying to redeem that word here.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he's like, "No, what, true godliness-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "is a little bit different."
David: Okay.
Seth: But I like-
David: Theology and godliness
Seth: ... theology and godliness.
David: They don't sound as good together, but I can concede that-
Seth: Theology
David: ... it's a more accurate term. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, I think part of it is, like, he has to practice what he preaches.
David: Okay. Yeah, sure.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yeah. How do those two go together?
Seth: Practice what you preach.
David: Right, yeah. Oh, because, I mean, think about this. How many times in this series on 1 Timothy have we talked about, um, the evangelistic purpose of the household order of God?
Seth: Right.
David: That it's order the household in such a way that it is clear to outsiders that what's happening inside the church is good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What's one of the main things that people attack Christians and the church about? It's that they don't practice what they preach.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They say they love people, and they go out and hel- hate people. Like-
Seth: Yep, right
David: ... that doesn't match. And so Timothy needs to fight and toil and strive to, yes, teach the right things, but then to live it out in a godly example.
Seth: I think this is a really fascinating thing that he says in verse 15. He says, "Practice these things," meaning good doctrine-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and godliness. "Immerse yourself in them so that everyone may see your progress." What does that mean? That means the, the community of the saints, the c- that church community he's pastoring, but also the broader community of Ephesus could see Timothy progress in godliness.
David: Mm.
Seth: They would say, "Oh, Timothy's kind of like... He's, he talks a lot about giving to the poor, but we're not seeing that play out."
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: "Oh, look at, I'm seeing him progress-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "in his care for the poor in Ephesus."
David: Right.
Seth: It, and so th- I thought that was really interesting that one of Paul's commands to this young pastor is to have a transparent enough spiritual life that the people that observe him can, like, to take a point A and point B and see Timothy growing. Does that-
David: Yeah, it makes a ton of, a ton of sense, yeah, that his pursuit of godliness would be seen by others.
Seth: Like, it's, like, transparent, and he has a reputation for growth in it over time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which I think also implies that people were aware of Timothy's failures-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... to some degree.
David: Sure.
Seth: Like, "Here's where I'm falling short, here's where God's calling me, and here's what we're gonna do," and yeah.
David: Yeah. Yeah. So he's, he's to fight, toil, strive for godliness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? But then also, uh, the first thing we mentioned was that he has to fight, toil, and strive for theology, right doctrine.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I, I'm thinking here of verse 13. Paul says, "Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture-"
Seth: Mm.
David: "... to exhortation, and to teaching."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he's like, "I want you to go all in on God's Word."
Seth: Yep.
David: And I think, like, I don't often, except whenever we're, you know, really here at work at Spoken Gospel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like trying to nail down, you know, a biblical theme in a book, or we're working on a devotional-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or I'm writing a poem, then I feel like I'm toiling and striving with God's Word a bit.
Seth: Mm.
David: But I don't think, like, when I wake up in the morning for my quiet time, like, "Okay, time to, time to fight."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, fight and toil and strive in my public reading of Scripture in, around my breakfast nook-
Seth: Well-
David: ... at, at home
Seth: ... I mean, I don't know if that's what you're supposed to take away from it.
David: Okay, okay, okay.
Seth: Because, one, I mean, Timothy is a pastor to a church.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And this is, this is a, advice to someone who has a public ministry-
David: Mm
Seth: ... particularly in the context of false teaching.
David: Right.
Seth: So instead of getting distracted by the false teaching, as a public minister of the Word, Timothy, say no to other things in your schedule-
David: Mm
Seth: ... so that you can pursue godliness for yourself and the communication of clear and good doctrine for others. That's what you need to strive in. That's the most important thing you need to do. Um, and so I think that obviously has implications-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for our personal life, but I think in particular, it, it's an encouragement to people who are in public ministry. You don't need to be super aware of every problem in your culture.
David: Mm.
Seth: You can do the hard work of becoming a godly person and a godly example to your community and be an expert in the good doctrine, and that is faithfulness.
David: Right. I think that's good news. It reminds me of, like, some, some advice you've given to youth pastors over the years.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where it's like, how do I know that I'm, I'm addressing y- y- my students-
Seth: Teens
David: ... my teens-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, the right way? I never know what to call them. My, my youths?
Seth: My students. [laughs]
David: The, uh, my street youths. [laughs]
Seth: Street youths. [laughs]
David: Um, yeah.
Seth: How-
David: How do I know I'm, I'm, I'm doing it right? They have this going on and this hot topic, and, you know, they're struggling with depression and suicide and gender identity and all these things. I can't just address them all in the pulpit every week-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and I know they're struggling with it, and you're saying that the advice to that pastor, that teacher, is to devote yourself to God's Word-
Seth: Mm
David: ... teach it clearly, and make sure your life matches it, and God will do the rest.
Seth: Yes.
David: I mean, that's good news. That takes pressure off of a pastor. [laughs]
Seth: Yes. [laughs] Early on in my ministry, there would be times where I just, I couldn't fall asleep at night-
David: Mm
Seth: ... 'cause I would just be rehearsing that line I didn't deliver perfectly.
David: Mm.
Seth: That, that-
David: Like, after you preached?
Seth: After I preached.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: The joke that didn't land, the time I tried to identify with the audience that didn't work.
David: Right.
Seth: And I'm like, "I will never be a good enough preacher to do what my students need to fight the lies that they're experiencing."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so finally, I don't know if it was Timothy, but it was a wiser pastor than I-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that someone just finally, "Did you explain what the Bible says clearly?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "I did that." "Did you tell them about Jesus?" "Well, I did that." That's all you need to do. That's-
David: That's enough
Seth: ... faithfulness.
David: That's faithfulness.
Seth: That's enough. That's enough.
David: Mm. And does... And then Timothy here, or Paul here, right, and Timothy would go one step further, "Does your life match what you preached?"
Seth: Yes, and does your life match that?
David: Yeah, 'cause that way, that way your students see you living it out-
Seth: Right
David: ... and they can see you progressing in what-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you just preached. They're like, "I wanna look like that."
Seth: And that's why it's good news that that simple message is what saves yourself and your hearers. Verse 10, "To this end we toil, to this end we strive, because we have our hopes set on the living God, who is the savior of all people, especially those who believe."
David: Mm.
Seth: And another way to say especially is probably just-
David: And by that I mean, so it's like [laughs]-
Seth: Oh, okay
David: ... it's like, uh, for this end we toil, we have set our hope in the living God, who's the savior of all people who believe.
Seth: That's probably-
David: Right
Seth: ... the easier way to-
David: I understand
Seth: ... to understand it. But why do we strive? Why do we toil?
David: Ah.
Seth: Why do we d- teach good doctrine? Why do we pursue a life of Godliness? Because there is a God who saves all people.
David: That's-
Seth: That's why we do the hard work-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of persevering. There is a God who saves all people. That's why we're working hard.
David: Mm.
Seth: So Timothy, verse 11, "Command and teach these things. Don't let anyone look down on you for your youth. Continue as an example in purity, faith and love. Do the hard work of devoting yourself to the public teaching of scripture. Don't neglect the gifts that you have. Practice them. Immerse yourself in them." Command, command, command.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Hard work, hard work, hard work. Why? Because in doing so, you will save both yourself and others. When you preach the Bible, preach the gospel, and have it transform you, God uses you to save other people.
David: Mm.
Seth: You will save other people because that's how God saves people.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Is through people like you, Timothy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So do the hard work of doing it, and by your hard work, you are guaranteed that you're saving yourself and other people.
David: I can't help but go back to verse 10, 'cause-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you just read that, and they, we, we just kinda kept going.
Seth: Yes.
David: And I'm like, oh my gosh. For, for to this end we toil and strive. So this is the grounding of what we've been talking about.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We've been talking about fighting, toiling-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... striving.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: What's the impetus, the driving motor, the heat behind that toil and strife? It's we do that because we have our hope set on a living God who is our savior.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's the one who saves.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we are hoping in Him. We have this future hope that He's going to come and save us. And so therefore because we know that, we can't help but toil and strive here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we do that because we know because He's the savior, because He's coming again, as we toil and strive, that will be how God saves us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and others.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Another way to say it is-
David: Yeah, help me there-
Seth: ... that-
David: ... 'cause I'm still trying to connect the pieces
Seth: ... so let's go to the great reformers who taught us that God saves alone, and we have no part of it. John Calvin, he said, "God saves alone, but He also uses means to save people."
David: Mm.
Seth: And one of the ways that He most frequently likes to save people is through imperfect men-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and women. This is how God has always saved people, through imperfect men and women faithfully believing in the gospel, telling other people about it, and through their witness, through their testimony, through their preaching, saving other people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it doesn't diminish God's power to save alone when God chooses by his divine fiat to give you, Timothy, a role in saving the people that He's want to save.
David: Right.
Seth: In-
David: In fact, it just fits with His like [laughs] divine patience-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... and grace and condescension, other things that like we worship God for doing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, I see that. Okay.
Seth: And I think this feels like good news for me because there is a sense in pastoral ministry or like ministry of the gospel in this way, it's like you never know when you're done.
David: Mm.
Seth: There's no way to measure the salvation of souls.
David: Right.
Seth: Because you'll baptize dozens of people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then they never come to church again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or you know, you'll have a kid in your student ministry who's just terrible.
David: Right.
Seth: 20 years later, they turn out, they're on fire for Jesus and have started a church in Anaheim, California, right?
David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: It's like you can't measure-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how God is working in your people.
David: Right.
Seth: But you know what Paul says?
David: Mm.
Seth: You can know you are saving people when you diligently do the hard work of preaching and being Godly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's-
David: Okay, that's starting to hit closer to home.
Seth: Right?
David: I think, yeah, I think like, I mean, let's take Spoken Gospel, what you and I do day in and day out, for example. We toil and strive with God's word every day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, we make introductions, devotionals, this podcast.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we see comments and downloads and, and reviews.
Seth: Mm.
David: And those are all really great, but again, we'll get some amazing comment from someone in Australia, and I'm like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Oh, what a cool story. That sounds so amazing." But like I don't know when the work's done with them. Like I don't-
Seth: Right
David: ... know that they're really in the place with Jesus I want them to be.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And the whole, the whole reason I'm making this podcast, for them to be. And I just like, when do I know that, like I did a good job?
Seth: Mm.
David: How do I know that all this isn't for naught?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, well because that toiling and striving is a part of my hope-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that Jesus is the savior of the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's why I toil and strive. The promise here is that there will be salvation for me and for others-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through those efforts.
Seth: Yeah, when we strive to be Godly, to teach the word, preach the word, God saves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We save people-
David: Right
Seth: ... through God's power in us. You know, you can-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... make it distance our action, but I don't want to. Paul says-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "You will save both yourself and your hearers." That-
David: That's good news
Seth: ... that is good-
David: You got me.
Seth: You, that is good news-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that I could be a part of s- somebody's salvation? Of-
David: Okay, yeah. All right, yeah.
Seth: Right? Okay, okay.
David: That's good. [laughs]
Seth: I, that's like, that I am actually a recipient of salvation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by the hard work of obeying the God who saves?
David: Yeah. Let me like put skin on that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for a second. We just had a mutual friend of ours move to New York City to be a missionary.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, um, we had a meeting, uh, before we were, my wife and I were gonna support him, and he was telling me a story about another couple that's supporting them. And they ended up doing way more than he thought they would. And he's like, "Can I just ask you, like, uh, it doesn't seem like you can give me this much money," [laughs] you know? And he's like, "Why are you being so generous?" And he just told this story. He was like, "Man, I just keep picturing a day when I'm at the marriage supper of the lamb with Jesus in heaven, and someone from Burma-Comes up to me, who lived in New York City for a while, and they come and shake my hand and sit down next to me. They're like, "Can I sit next to you and eat with you?" And he's like, "Oh, yeah." Um, and, and he's like, "You don't know me, but I know you." I was like, "Oh, how do you know me?" He's like, "You supported the Edwards family who preached the gospel to me, and I'm here because of you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "I want that moment, and it's worth anything. I will toil and strive."
Seth: He set his hope on the living God who will save all people.
David: Right.
Seth: So he worked hard-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... knowing that he would save people.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's so cool. The other thing I'm thinking is, like, a really interesting way to meditate on the gospel here, too, is how Jesus perfectly embodied, uh, Paul's commands to Timothy. So Jesus, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: If we're gonna talk about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... right doctrine [laughs] and right living always perfectly matching, Jesus did that perfectly.
Seth: Yes.
David: Jesus always practiced what he preached, right? He was never a hypocrite. And, um, as he taught doctrine, the, the way of God perfectly, and as he literally lived the only perfect sinless life, he did that, and he had to toil and strive to do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, think about Gethsemane, right? Think about the rejection. Like, think about living in poverty a lot of times.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, thinking about liv- being a Nazarene. Like [laughs]
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a lot of toil and striving.
Seth: Jesus was a diligent, hard worker.
David: Yes. [laughs] That's right.
Seth: Yes, toiling and striving.
David: And he did that knowing, and, and Hebrews even tells us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for the hope, for the joy set before him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He did all that. Why? So that he could save the whole world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, uh, save himself is kind of a strange way to, to, to word that. But Jesus even said, "If you wanna save your life, lose it." So in Jesus diligently pushing through Gethsemane-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the attacks of the false teacher, demonic false teachers, Satan.
Seth: Going back to a different garden. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Yeah, like, because he did that, he saved his life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God raised him up-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... because he went low.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and that's the mystery of godliness we talked about-
Seth: Yep, yep, yep
David: ... earlier. And so I just can't help but see how Jesus perfectly lived the life that Paul is calling Timothy to live.
Seth: Amen.
David: And I'm saved because he did.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and what is it? He gets the credit and glory for that.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, I don't know. That's cool, too. I like that. Okay. I think I'm on, I'm on Team Toil and Strife.
Seth: It's good news-
David: I'm... There. It's good news
Seth: ... that we can save ourselves and others through our toil and striving.
David: It's, it's good news that we can save ourselves through our own-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... toil and striving. I, I can say that now in the right context.
Seth: In the right... And I think, well, one of the things that we talked about off-air, too, was that I think normally when we talk about the doctrine of the f- free gospel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like, "There's nothing that you can do to earn your salvation because Jesus has done it all."
David: Mm-hmm. Right.
Seth: We're normally talking about that in the context of this kind of, like, incessant, like, feeling that you're not good enough.
David: Right.
Seth: "I can never do enough. I'm not good enough. I don't know if I've ever done enough." No, don't worry. Jesus did it all. You don't have to do anything. And we say it in the context of our own existential angst.
David: Right.
Seth: But this is kind of a different conversation. Like, no-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we're talking about the salvation of other people. Let's, let's forget ourselves for a moment-
David: Right
Seth: ... and let's just talk about what saves the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What saves other people? Well, God saves other people.
David: Mm.
Seth: How? When you work hard to be godly and to preach the word.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So let's go do it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Let's go do it, Timothy.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's go do it. Paul, I'm right there with you, Timothy. Let's go.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know? That's-
David: Totally. Oh, that is good. Well, that's helpful. Anything else to round out chapter four or-
Seth: Nothing else
David: ... to round out chapter four.
Seth: Okay.
David: So, uh, next week, what are we in?
Seth: We're, next week, we're in, um, let's just call it how to correct your family. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Paul is gonna tell Timothy how to, to address older women, older men, and other members of the household of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: So-
David: So more, uh, the household stuff there.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: More household stuff.
David: Well, great. We're excited to keep going through 1 Timothy with you guys. So thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.
Outro: [upbeat music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
