David: [upbeat music] You can repeat the gospel every day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when you go into work.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because yeah, you're a brother now. You've been given, just as I had, a higher status.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And yet you can willingly choose to become a slave and to serve-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to show the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what I did. Like, that's amazing. You can-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... literally be a picture of the gospel. That's cool.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our time in 1 Timothy. We're in chapter 5. Seth, how you feel about that?
Seth: I'm feeling good. I'm feeling excited to talk about the way that Paul encourages Timothy to address different members of his church family.
David: Yeah. Well, how did you word it the end of the podcast last week? It was something like-
Seth: How to correct your family
David: ... how to correct [laughs] your family.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's what it was. Wait, wait, what?
Seth: The reason why I said that was that Paul has a central metaphor for the church.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Paul, Paul uses this household metaphor. Like, the church is God's house. It's the assembled of the living God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And as God's house in which God's spirit dwells, the members of God's house should act a certain way.
David: Right, and we've pointed out, like, one of the main reasons for that is so, like, outsiders will see it and-
Seth: Yep
David: ... like-
Seth: And want to be saved. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Want to be a part of that family.
Seth: We want to be a part of that family, want to be a part of that church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... want to be a part of the assembled of the living God.
David: Yeah. The other, I think, especially having, like, last week's talk ringing in my ears, I think would be, uh, so that the truth will be heard well and seen clearly.
Seth: Yeah. There's... Like, when the church strives to live the truth, like to s- preach the truth and then live it out and be godly, the world is transformed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that, that is the reason why there's so many ethical commands to different parts of the house of God, is in hopes that the witness and the behavior of the church would actually save the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It would be like a salt in, on a piece of meat or like light in the darkness. It would actually transform-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the place that it's a part of.
David: Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. I'm trying to remind myself, uh, like, I'm trying to make myself care again-
Seth: Mm
David: ... about the, all the household metaphors.
Seth: Oh, okay. Yeah.
David: Because I remember we talked about, like, Roman house code laws and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... things. Can you help me get back into that [laughs] space of-
Seth: So Paul frequently throughout his letters makes reference or use of this stock idea within Roman literature-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... called the Roman household codes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if you read Socrates, you read, or you read Aristotle and you read these ancient Romans, like Seneca or whatever-
David: Right
Seth: ... or just Paul.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: They'll, uh, they will have reference to this ideal family home-
David: Wow
Seth: ... where you have a patriarch at the top, a wife, children, and slaves underneath them.
David: That sounded like a Norman Rockwell painting until you got to slaves.
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] But okay.
Seth: But okay.
David: Gotcha.
Seth: Um, and this was the ideal Roman whole, is, Roman home. It was the building block of Roman society.
David: Oh, right. I remember we talked about how, like, the health and functionality of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... how a father ran his house was a picture of how Caesar runs the empire.
Seth: Yep.
David: And we all need to do that together in order to keep the Pax Romana, the peace of Rome-
Seth: Yes
David: ... depends on how you manage your household.
Seth: If one house falls, the whole empire falls.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so again, if you had Roman churches and Roman households that were Christian-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and they were chinks in the armor, they were weak blocks-
Seth: Yep
David: ... making outsiders look at them and go, "You guys are messing up our whole society," that's gonna make Christians have a bad name.
Seth: Right. And-
David: And so how does a Christian household and a church manage itself in such a way that's countercultural, because the Kingdom of God is counter to the Kingdom of Rome-
Seth: Right
David: ... but also in such a way that it's a blessing to be part of the Roman Empire?
Seth: Yes.
David: That's the tension.
Seth: That's the tension.
David: Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm all in.
Seth: You're, you're back in.
David: I'm back in.
Seth: You're back in.
David: I'm excited. Okay.
Seth: And so in this section, Paul is going to speak to three distinct groups that would've existed in a lot of Roman house-
David: Okay
Seth: ... houses, widows, um, elders, and in particular for this context, the elders of the church, the leaders of the church-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but also just elderly men. There was always patriarchs in the home. But also, and then finally, slaves, and he's gonna address these three different groups of people within God's house.
David: So you got, like, older women.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Well, particularly widows, but yes.
David: Widows. But I guess, I guess not all widows would be older women.
Seth: Not all older women are widows.
David: Or no, not all widows would be older women.
Seth: That's true.
David: Some had, would, their husbands would die young.
Seth: And he'll, he'll actually address that here too.
David: Okay. And then you got older men, though-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... would be the elders.
Seth: Yep.
David: Like, the patriarchs of the house.
Seth: Yep. And I mean, in particular here, he's talking about the leaders of the church.
David: The elder, the leaders of the church.
Seth: This is within the... It's not just the Roman house.
David: Uh-huh. Okay.
Seth: That's, like, the broader metaphorical-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: ... like, cultural category.
David: Okay.
Seth: The category that, and now Paul's narrowing it and saying, "Within the household of God-
David: Okay
Seth: ... how should widows act? How should the elders of the church act?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "How should slaves act? And Timothy, how should you correct them-
David: When they-
Seth: ... and lead them when they need it?"
David: Okay.
Seth: That's what's going on.
David: All right. So how does he start [laughs] this section then?
Seth: Well, he says, "Do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father. Younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters in all purity."
David: So I mean, right away, you, you, you run into the weird countercultural tension thing that I brought up just a second ago, where, uh, I, I remember reading, I can't remember where, but how a lot of the claims against, uh, early Christianity from the Roman Empire, like, saying that it was a terrible institution and that it should be destroyed, was that they all practiced incest.
Seth: 'Cause they referred to each other as brother and sister.
David: Because they were like, "This family over here who's actually not related to me-... is my brother, and we're gonna all go to this communion thing that we call a love feast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're like, "What are you guys doing over there?"
Seth: You're everyone's brothers and sisters.
David: [laughs]
Seth: You're at a love feast, and you're eating the blood and body-
David: Of-
Seth: ... your savior
David: ... Jesus.
Seth: That's-
David: So you're cannibalistic-
Seth: [laughs] Yeah
David: ... incestual-
Seth: Right. Yes.
David: Yeah. Where all the pe- so, like, I could see why-
Seth: That was [laughs]
David: ... their reputation was already on the line.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause you would never in Roman society go up to somebody you're not related to and be like, "You're my brother."
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, no, that means something very-
Seth: Very specific
David: ... particular. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, so think about how countercultural then the Christian household is.
David: Yes.
Seth: It isn't just your blood family.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It is all people who profess faith in Jesus Christ. They are now your brothers and sisters, your fathers and mothers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the way that you would've treated them in your own blood family is now the way that you treat all people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in your extended Christian family-
David: Right
Seth: ... which would've been s- countercultural. I mean, it's counterculture today.
David: Oh, totally.
Seth: I don't treat your... I, I mean, I don't have to treat other people like my brothers and sisters.
David: Right.
Seth: But in Christ, I should.
David: Right. Yeah, like on Megan's birthday, my wife, I'm not offended that you didn't, you or Erica didn't call her.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: But I should've probably-
David: You know, it's like-
Seth: Right? [laughs]
David: ... like she's your sister, man.
Seth: Right.
David: Call your sister.
Seth: Yes.
David: But it's [laughs] it's, yeah, it is interesting. Okay. So yeah, right away then, I guess what you're saying is, he says, "You know you have, um, older men in your congregation."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Treat them like you would a father."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Is, I mean-
Seth: That, that's a, a-
David: Is, is he thinking, like, that's your Roman household dad?
Seth: I mean, perhaps.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, I mean, to treat him as you would your father. Timothy's father was a, a Gentile.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He would've been a Roman.
David: Right.
Seth: You know? We-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... um, so treat him like you would your father. And I think-
David: With respect, yeah
Seth: ... with respect-
David: Right
Seth: ... honor, authority-
David: 'Cause he says-
Seth: ... submission
David: ... he says, "Don't rebuke him." You wouldn't go up to your dad and be like, "Dad," like, [laughs] "I'm coming after you." You, you might be like, "Hey, I just wanna encourage you. Like, I, I noticed you doing this. There might be a better way." You would approach that differently than-
Seth: Than-
David: ... an open rebuke.
Seth: Right. I would confront my brother differently than I would confront my father.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Seth: And Paul is saying, though that same natural, intuitive way that you deal with your family-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... should be the way that you naturally and intuitively deal with God's family too.
David: Yeah, carefully, lovingly, knowing that you're gonna have to see them again tomorrow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And think about back to the c- the qualifications for elders and deacons-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that Paul's already given Timothy. What's the primary qualification for elders and deacons?
David: Oh, uh, they-
Seth: That they manage their household well.
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: So their, if their Christianity first doesn't work out in the home, it's not gonna work out anywhere else.
David: Right.
Seth: And how they treat their own home is how they should treat the household of God. Like, there is a really clear parallel there-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that Paul wants Timothy to execute.
David: Okay. That makes sense. So older, okay, older men need to be treated as fathers. Younger men need to be treated as brothers. Older women be treated as mothers and younger women as sisters, so that's all the family stuff.
Seth: That's all the family stuff.
David: And then he adds in, "In all purity."
Seth: I think... Yeah.
David: What does that mean?
Seth: Well, I'm, I think it means treat your sisters with purity. [laughs] Like, I, I was thinking-
David: Oh, do you think the purity is particularly about the younger women?
Seth: I have-
David: The sisters
Seth: ... read it that way.
David: Okay. Do you have a...
Seth: I don't know.
David: I have no idea. I was just wondering, like, is it a list? Like, treat the old men as fathers, you know, the brothers, the mothers, and the sisters in all purity. Or is it-
Seth: A couple-
David: ... particularly when you get to young, younger women, it's like those would be the ones you would need to be careful.
Seth: Well, a couple verses before in verse 12, he says, "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity."
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's no reason why, like, treat your fathers, treat your, the older men in your congregations li- purely.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, like you, like you should.
David: Right.
Seth: A- as is appropriate to their position and your position.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Treat your brothers the same way. Treat your sisters the same way.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's just a way to talk about don't bring in a whole bunch of heat because you're angry with your dad to all the older men-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in your church. Don't, because you're estranged from your brother, be distant from your brothers in Christ.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Just, you know, like-
David: Let all your relationships-
Seth: ... don't lust after your sisters in Christ either. [laughs]
David: Right. [laughs] It's, yeah.
Seth: Like, it's like treat them appropriately. So it's like it could be broader. It could be narrower. I don't have a good answer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But-
David: That makes sense. Okay
Seth: ... either way. But I think the important thing to take away was, one, Paul is still operating in that metaphor of treating-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... God's church, Go- the family of God, like your own family.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think it's good news that this is how God treated us.
David: Right. That's what I was gonna say.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, the good news here is that we're in God's family.
Seth: We are in God's family, and not just that we now have hundreds of brothers and sisters-
David: Mm, right
Seth: ... who can treat us with a love that's normally reserved for only very few people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in our life. Like, what, that's what Jesus says. "There's been no one who has left father or mother because of me that will not gain hundreds of mothers and brothers and sisters-
David: Right
Seth: ... when they enter my house." And this is Paul picking up on that promise-
David: Totally
Seth: ... and say, "Make Jesus not a liar, Timothy."
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Like, actually multiply the numbers of brothers and sisters that everyone in the community has-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because you're one of them.
David: Right.
Seth: But also, this is how God's treated us. He's adopted us as His children. We're told that Jesus is our brother.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're told that God is our Father. We're told that He's like a mother hen covering us with His wings.
David: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. That's something I, yeah, don't take enough time, and maybe it's 'cause we don't have, like, a familial, rich culture, you know? Like, that I just don't take a lot of time to just sit and think about, like, the family metaphor of my relationship with God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and my relationship m- more with my brothers and sisters. 'Cause I feel like I have to think a lot about me being a, the child of God in order to f- really feel His love for me. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... He's my dad. I'm His son.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, like, I have to meditate on that a lot. So that's not so much the problem. But, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily think regularly about my local church of just, like-
Seth: A huge grouping of... A big family reunion every Sunday
David: Right
Seth: Like
David: Yep
Seth: And if I, and like how different I would wanna treat everyone if I took that very seriously.
David: And the thing about Timothy in particular, who's a young man-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who's also in a position of leadership within this church.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's actually a pretty fine line to walk as a leader of a, an organization-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where you have a whole... Like, it would be easy if you're a leader to treat everybody like your subordinate.
Seth: Right.
David: But, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's a natural way to treat everybody when you walk into a room and you're the, the, the guy the Apostle Paul chose to lead the church, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: That would be very natural.
Seth: Yeah. If there's an old guy there who you're supposed to lead, you rebuke him.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah. Easy.
David: And if a sister needs to get in line, she needs to get in line.
Seth: Right. But-
David: Instead, he's like, "Nope. Whenever there's an old guy, Timothy, treat him like your dad."
Seth: Yeah. The fact that he's in leadership does not erase his familial responsibilities-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or the fact that the church is actually God's home, not merely an institution or an organization.
David: Yeah. I'm also thinking, like, I mean, how many people have broken relationships with their families?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? And how the church redeems that. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it gives them an opportunity to mend any relationship. Where it's like, you have an estranged sister, the church has sisters for you to connect with.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You have a brother who ignored you, the church is full of brothers who can love you.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, you have a dad who left, the church, it has fathers to surround you with.
Seth: Mm.
David: You have a mother who is emotionally distant, the church has mothers who can tenderly love you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, the church can mend any broken relationship that you've experienced in your family.
Seth: It just... Yeah, it's-
David: Really incarnational good news.
Seth: Yeah
David: It's not in your head. It's, like, right there in your house.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just super cool.
Seth: It's a, a furthering of what he said to Timothy oth- previously.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, by your godliness, you will save yourself and others. When the church acts like the church-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the family of God, the assembled of the living God, it attracts people to it and saves them into a new family.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the church is meant to do.
David: That's so cool.
Seth: And Timothy, as its leader, is supposed to be the first among equals in that sense. He's supposed to lead the church, be the example-
David: Right
Seth: ... of a perfect brother, a perfect father, a perfect, you know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... child.
David: As he, as he told him in the last chapter, to practice what he preaches.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Okay. All right, so that's like the framing-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and then we need to look at three relationships, widows, elders, and slaves.
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music] So the first piece of advice that Paul gives to Timothy-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is in the treatment of widows inside of his church.
David: Which seems, like, kinda out of left field.
Seth: You think that, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Until-
David: Uh-oh
Seth: ... you go back to the Book of Deuteronomy.
David: Wait, what? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: What? What? That's the nerdiest thing I've ever heard.
Seth: I was caught off guard by this, too.
David: Okay.
Seth: I was like, "Why, why are we, why are we starting with widows?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's like, when you think about a family, it's like the first person I don't automatically think of is a widow.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I normally think of my wife or my children. I mean, just like-
David: Yeah, right
Seth: ... widows does seem out of left field, to your point.
David: Right. Uh, especially in the Roman community, I assume you'd be like, "Okay, how to get the household in order. Let's talk about Dad."
Seth: R- yeah.
David: Right? Like-
Seth: That's right. That's right
David: ... that's, he's the one who keeps the, he keeps the house together, right? And he starts at, I guess, like, almost socioeconomically on the bottom-
Seth: Yeah, with-
David: ... instead of... And he, then he goes to elders second, so it's kind of upside-down, countercultural-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that it starts with widows.
Seth: But again, it makes sense if you go back to the Book of Deuteronomy.
David: As we al- as we always do.
Seth: As we all should and [laughs] should do every day.
David: Every day.
Seth: [laughs] So whenever, uh, God writes down the Ten Commandments-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and gives them to Moses-
David: Right
Seth: ... Moses walks up the mountain, and he sees people partying with a golden calf, and he smashes the commandments.
David: Kaboom.
Seth: And then he walks back up, and God writes another book of Ten Commandments.
David: Right.
Seth: And he walks back down the mountain.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when he walks back down the mountain that second time, there's a short explanation of some of the contents of what are in there. And it's not the Decalogue-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... not the Ten Commandments-
David: Right
Seth: ... but just other laws that descend from those Ten Commandments. Does that make sense?
David: The don't, don't boil a goat in its mother's milk?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: [laughs] Like-
Seth: The ones that really naturally connect to the Ten Commandments
David: ... the really natural connected ones. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: So- [laughs]
Seth: And in that, in those verses immediately preceding Moses coming down the mountain-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with the law of God is God's description that he is a defender of widows and a father to the fatherless.
David: Mm.
Seth: One of the first ways that God describes himself to the covenant people of God, to th- God's house-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is as a defender of widows.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then again in Deuteronomy 24:17, we have a repetition of the command, and it's tied to the fact that God is a defender of widows, and they should defend widows as God's house because they were brought out of Egypt.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: And presumably in Egypt, Egypt did not care for their widows well.
David: Oh.
Seth: And because they were part of a nation that didn't care for their widows well, they should be a new nation, a new home that takes care of its widows.
David: Ooh, yeah. Uh, I get that.
Seth: So-
David: Can I, can I do one-
Seth: Please continue
David: ... nerdy, nerdy thing that-
Seth: Yes
David: ... just popped in my head?
Seth: Yes.
David: Is Israel is often referred to, now, sometimes in the, in the Torah she's referred to as, um, a son. Like, "I loved you like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a son, Israel."
Seth: Yep.
David: But a lot of times she's also referred to as a wife.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And in Egypt, you could see that as a time of her widowhood.
Seth: Right.
David: That for 400 years-
Seth: Mm
David: ... she was kind of alone there-
Seth: Mm
David: ... until God heard her pleas-
Seth: That's interesting. Yeah
David: ... came to her and rescued her. He's like, "You should care for widows in your midst because you were a widow, Israel, and I cared for you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Of course he's a defender of widows. That's what the entire Exodus story was-
Seth: Interesting. Yeah
David: ... was God caring for widowed-Israel-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the midst of Egypt. I never thought of that before, but that's really interesting.
Seth: So the point here is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like the idea that God is on the side of the widow-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is part of the foundational documents-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of Israel as a nation, the people of God, as God's home.
David: I see.
Seth: It's always been in God's intention that the household of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the household of Israel, would be a place where the widows are defended.
David: I gotcha. Like, those, there's those cheesy Hobby Lobby signs.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, I'm not... I love Hobby Lobby-
Seth: Right
David: ... but there are some cheesy signs that-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And one of them is like, "In this house we..."
Seth: Right.
David: And there's like the rules of the house, and it's like-
Seth: We defend the widows. [laughs]
David: And yeah, it's like-
Seth: Whoa
David: ... we pick up laundry-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and we, we laugh often, and we love much.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it's like, and if God had that sign in His house, He's like, "Welcome to my house. In this house, we defend widows."
Seth: Yes.
David: And you're like, "Whoa, interesting rule to start with, God."
Seth: Um, in Isaiah, uh, chapter one, the way that Israel can measure its justice, the litmus test for justice is its defense of the widows.
David: Wow.
Seth: Oh, and then, uh, what is it? Acts-
David: Six
Seth: ... six. The first ministry started by the church-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is a widow care ministry.
David: Interesting.
Seth: And then James 1:27, what is true religion, does James say?
David: Oh, caring for orphans and widows.
Seth: Caring for orphans and widows.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there is something that one of the first ministries a church is supposed to be involved in, just as one of the first aspects of just as God's nation was supposed to be involved in, was the defense of widows.
David: Wow.
Seth: That's why it's... I think that's why it's first.
David: Yeah, i- 'cause it's first on God's heart.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's really awesome. [laughs] I, I'm trying to move into the practical sides of this, but I just can't for a second. 'Cause, like, it's amazing that widows are first on God's heart.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when... if, if you have, if you have a king [laughs] in charge of everything, the first thing on his mind is not gonna be widows. They can't do anything for him.
Seth: Mm.
David: Right?
Seth: Right.
David: They're only gonna have to take. They're needy. They're gonna be a cost-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to his time and his resources. And so let's not talk about them. Let's talk about the rich people in my land who can give me things.
Seth: The young, strong men who can build my palaces.
David: Right, right.
Seth: Instead-
David: God starts with the people who literally don't e- ca- not, not only can they not help him financially or something, He starts with the people He, He wants to help-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who need his help first. I just think that's so cool about God.
Seth: Yeah. And it's interesting too that one of the more counterintuitive ways that God described himself is as a husband.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if he's a husband, who's he a husband to? Those who have no husbands.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Who's he a father to? Well, first, the th- people who have no fathers.
David: The orphans.
Seth: The orphans. Um, how gracious of God.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And so, of course, the first ministry, if that is the, the heart of God, that he's a father to those who have no father, and a husband and a groom and a provider-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for those who do not have that, well, of course, the household of God. If God's the head of the house, the patriarch of the house-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what's the first thing that He's gonna make sure happens in his house?
David: That the widows are cared for.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. For him, his house would not be in order if widows are in need.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. Okay, cool. So I get now why widows are right out of the gate.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But I know also that something is going on with widows in Timothy's church-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, with their widow care ministry, right?
Seth: Yeah. So apparently there was a list that you could get on with-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in the church of Ephesus, and that list allowed you to access a certain amount of funds to provide for you if you had no one to provide for yourself.
David: Okay. The widow care ministry list.
Seth: Yes.
David: And-
Seth: And if you were, if you were eligible, you could get on the list, and the church would give you some money every month, or however often, in order to meet your needs.
David: Right. The church would be your financial husband.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because God-
David: And provides for the-
Seth: ... is a God who provides for those.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: So good idea.
Seth: Great idea.
David: Great program.
Seth: Great program.
David: But something's wrong with it.
Seth: Yeah. There was a group of women who were taking advantage of the widow care ministry.
David: Dun, dun, dun.
Seth: Um, potentially connected to the group of women who, in 1 Timothy 2, who seem to be teaching over Timothy-
David: Ah
Seth: ... or usur- usurping his teaching authority-
David: Mm
Seth: ... influenced by the false teachers in some way.
David: Carrying on all the, the useless myths and everything.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Spinning old wives' tales.
Seth: So perhaps it was the same group of women. There's a-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... group of widows who are part of the central, like, central clique of the false teachers-
David: Okay, yes
Seth: ... you know, in wherever.
David: Right. And they are typically younger.
Seth: It's kind of difficult to read between the lines. It can sound like Paul's just making stereotypes about widows. Uh, verse 11, "Refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry, and they incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Wait, all younger widows, um, get drawn away by their passions and want to abandon the faith?
David: Right.
Seth: And they become idlers, going from house to house, and they're gossips and busybodies? Like, Paul, it feels like you're-
David: Overgeneralizing
Seth: ... paint- painting a broad brush here.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think more than likely what he's describing is describing a group of women who have abandoned their former faith, verse 12-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and have given the adversary an occasion for slander, verse 14.
David: Which would be a way he's been describing the false teaching.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: And in verse 15, they've already strayed after Satan, another way that he's-
David: There we go
Seth: ... described the false teaching.
David: So yeah, it's probably safe to say he's honing in on this clique of women who are propagating the false teaching.
Seth: Yeah, and they are idling, busybody-
David: Oh
Seth: ... teaching false things.
David: Because you're saying-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they're on this widows list.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The church is paying their monthly expenses, so they don't have anything to do. They don't have a family necessarily to take care of. They don't have, like, a job to go do.
Seth: Right.
David: They just get to be idle and-
Seth: They're taking-
David: ... gossip all day.
Seth: They're taking advantage of the church's generosity.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Teaching false teaching.
David: Okay, and so what is his... He has advice for them. I can't remember what he, he says. Does he say, "Don't put them on the list"? Is that his advice?
Seth: Well, so part of it's like, so you should take them off the list-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... is the im- is the implication. And instead, he says, "I advise younger widows to get married, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. And instead, if they have relatives who are widows, let them care for her, and let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are truly widows."
David: Oh, I, I understand. So even, so you might have these younger widows-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... v- uh, who have maybe a mom-Who is a, a widow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And maybe both of them are on the church's registry-
Seth: Right
David: ... for being helped. And Paul's like, "Listen, l- you younger widows-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... go ahead and get remarried," right? Have a husband, uh, have kids, manage your household well, and then with your husband's salary and the management of your household, support your mom, who's a widow.
Seth: Right.
David: Get her off the list too-
Seth: Right
David: ... so we can help people who literally have no one to help them.
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause they're being overlooked or maybe the budget is having to spread too thin-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that people aren't being helped as much as they need.
Seth: Something like that.
David: Something like that. Okay.
Seth: And I think we pointed out in our off air, but like this is a r- there's a really good example of this in scripture in Ruth and Naomi.
David: Yes.
Seth: Naomi, you have this older widow. R- Ruth and Naomi are both widows.
David: They're both widows.
Seth: In the Book of Ruth.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh-
David: One young, one who opens the book saying, "I'm past childbearing age."
Seth: Right. Ruth takes it upon herself to provide for her widowed mother-
David: Yep
Seth: ... propose to a man, and fix the situation.
David: Right.
Seth: That's [laughs] the short version of the story.
David: Yeah, she does what Paul commands the other widows here to do.
Seth: Yeah, so she's like a living example of what that could look like in action.
David: Totally. Okay.
Seth: And then Paul says, "Okay, so that's what you shouldn't do. Here's who should be on the list."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What I was struck by as I was reading through this, Paul doesn't just list neediness-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... as, um, a qualification for getting on the widows list.
David: Okay.
Seth: 'Cause I would've expected, well, if you're a widow-
David: We'll help you
Seth: ... we'll help you.
David: Right.
Seth: But he lists a whole bunch of other stuff besides being destitute.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He says, well, they need to be at least 60 and have no other family, but they're supposed to be women who hope in God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and have a reputation for good deeds. They're supposed to have raised their children well. They're supposed to have washed the feet of the saints.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're supposed to have been hospitable to outsiders, and they're supposed to have cared for the afflicted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm like, wow, this is actually a really high calling. It's like, it feels like more of a calling-
David: Right
Seth: ... than just like a beneficence-
David: Right
Seth: ... or a benevolence campaign or a benevolence fund. Like, this feels like-
David: Right
Seth: ... a high position of honor in the church-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be a widow.
David: If you're in the, if you are... It's almost like a qualification for elder.
Seth: Well, there are a lot of overlaps-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with the qualifications for elders and deacons parroted here in the qualification-
David: Yeah, especially-
Seth: ... for widows
David: ... and they're being, th- they're being seen as worthy of honor to be paid, kind of like elders were too.
Seth: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
David: And it's like he's saying, "If you're supported as a widow of this church-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it's because not only you're in need, but you have this deep character of godliness."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I guess there, there might be an assumption there that you'll now be freed up to serve the church more.
Seth: I wonder if that's the case.
David: Yeah, 'cause he wouldn't want them to be idle busybodies. He says that-
Seth: Right
David: ... earlier. So it's interesting that there's so much parallel there, you know, that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, it's... I'm just, I'm curious. I'm just speculating.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: That I just wonder if there is this sense that the people in the widows ministry who should be there are actually some of the like, maybe the deaconesses or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... some of the people who really do serve the church in a deep level. And in-
Seth: Yeah. Oh, and-
David: ... interesting. I never thought of that
Seth: ... and the point is these younger women who are, don't have the requisite character are stealing money from the women who really do deserve it, who are really in need, and who are super godly.
David: Right. What I thought you were gonna say was these younger widows are having more authority in the church, right?
Seth: Oh.
David: And that's sowing discord when the, these godly older widows-
Seth: Mm
David: ... if they had the space that the younger widows did, they would be more of a good influence on the church.
Seth: Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like, so they're messing everything up. The household is out of order.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Not only are the poor widows not being taken care of, they're actually not able to take the place of prominence in the church that they should have.
Seth: Mm. That's interesting.
David: And, and, like, sow godliness.
Seth: The, the other interesting wrinkle here is that because he adds, like, these moral commands for the widows who should be on the list-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and all these moral prohibitions, like, don't be idlers, don't be busybodies, to, to the women who shouldn't be on the list, it goes back to this idea that the household of God should be something that the Roman Empire can look into and see something they wanna be a part of.
David: Right.
Seth: These widows are washing the feet of everybody.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're, have a reputation for being hospitable and caring for the afflicted. Like, these are, like, outward-facing public acts of hospitality and service that would actually make the household of God look like the household of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... look like God lives there.
David: Yes. And the, yeah
Seth: The widows who should have nobody are being provided for by people that aren't their fathers, not their sons, not their daughters-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yet they can live freely, and they serve those people by washing the afflicted's feet.
David: Yeah. How could you be mad at that?
Seth: How could you be mad at that?
David: It's too beautiful to be mad at.
Seth: Wouldn't you wanna be a part of it?
David: Yeah. And on the flip side, the picture they're giving now is not helping-
Seth: That's right
David: ... because you have women who could remarry and who aren't as destitute-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... uh, and they're freeloading.
Seth: Right.
David: And causing disruption.
Seth: And that's plain to everybody on the outside. Like, these women are clearly taking advantage of your system, and you're just letting it happen.
David: Yeah, it's like I wouldn't wanna be a part of that. It seems corrupt and lazy.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Okay, so the reputation of the church is on the line.
Seth: Reputation of the church is on the line.
David: And the widows ministry. Okay, cool.
Seth: And I think that's the same thing that's on the line when it comes to elders and when it comes to slaves as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The reputation of the church is on the line in how widows, elders, and slaves conduct themselves.
David: Yeah. Before we jump into that, I think it would be interesting for us to, like, meditate on the gospel for widows-
Seth: Mm. Mm-hmm
David: ... like, like we have for a second. And, um, I mean, there's a couple ways to do that. I think one would be to speak to widows, [laughs] right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's almost guaranteed someone listening to this podcast is a widow.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, like, my mom is a widow.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know? And, like, it's a huge part of how she views herself in the world-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is Jesus is my husband, and he's all I need. And, like, it's a, it's a beautiful thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, when a widow marries herself to Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in full dependence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's a very beautiful thing. And, like, again and again, she'll just randomly talk about how her husband provided for her through some crazy thing, you know? And so I think the good news for widows is no matter how needy you are, no matter how destitute you are-There's a great husband for you in Jesus
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, and he wants-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to marry you. He loves you. He died for you. He has... You're on his list.
Seth: Yeah, [laughs] you're on-
David: There it is
Seth: ... [laughs]
David: Like, you're on Jesus's widow care list, and he wants to provide for you and continue to form you into the godly woman that you are and to bless others.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think that's, like, so cool. I think the other way to talk about it is putting ourselves in the shoes of widows.
Seth: Okay.
David: Kinda like we did with Israel. It's like, Is- Israel as a whole was a widow.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They were needy, destitute, and without any hope for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... providing for [laughs] themselves. And I think probably for y- you and I and maybe other guys listening, um, we're like, "I'm not a widow." [laughs]
Seth: That's how I sound.
David: That's how you talk.
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs] You know, but it's like, it's like, it's such an interesting... It's also the same kind of uncomfortable thing that happens whenever you tell a guy that he's the bride of Christ, you know?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: It's like, what if, what if you viewed yourself as a widow-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who had no one and nothing, and you were all alone?
Seth: I mean, he, at one point he says they're, these widow, they are dead, self-indulgent and dead even while they live. Like, that's, that's us.
David: Right.
Seth: Self-indulgent and dead even while we live-
David: Yes
Seth: ... apart from, apart from what Jesus has done for us.
David: And Jesus comes to even widows like us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Undeserving widows. The ungodly widows. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he says, "I wanna marry you, and I want you to come help put my household in order."
Seth: Mm. [gentle music] So the reputation of the church is on the line, not just in the way that widows conduct themselves and are cared for, but also in the way that the leaders of the church, the elders-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are both appointed and corrected.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we already know that some of the elders are guilty of false teaching.
David: Yeah, and maybe have already been excommunicated?
Seth: El- excommunicated, yeah.
David: Right.
Seth: Alexander and Hymenaeus-
David: Sort of been told-
Seth: ... have been handed over to Satan
David: ... the coppersmith.
Seth: Yeah, the coppersmith, have been handed over to Satan.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They've been kicked out of the church.
David: Okay.
Seth: And presumably they still have some influence, so Timothy has to deal with that.
David: Right, there's a power vacuum, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the church needs leaders. They need older men. They need to hire them, select them.
Seth: Yep.
David: And here's some advice for that?
Seth: There's some advice for that.
David: Okay.
Seth: The first thing is how to treat elders who are doing a good job. [laughs]
David: Okay. [laughs] Okay.
Seth: Which is great. A great place to start.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,' and, 'The laborer deserves his wages.'" So interesting note, this is one of the few times in Scripture where you have an Old Testament text and a New Testament text right next to each other, and both referred to as Scripture.
David: Mm.
Seth: So you shall not muzzle an ox is from Deuteronomy 25. The laborer deserves his wage is what Jesus said in, as recorded in Matthew and Luke.
David: Ah, but Paul is saying both of those are Scripture.
Seth: Scripture, yes.
David: So a big development in the view-
Seth: On-
David: ... of the canon of the New Testament.
Seth: Yeah, so fun, fun-
David: Fun little side note
Seth: ... side note. But the first thing, he says, "Okay, Timothy, when you're dealing with your, leaders of your church, you should pay them well."
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: "They're, they're worthy of double honor."
David: Right.
Seth: "They sh- they should be honored as the fathers, as the elders of the church, who are laboring in preaching and teaching. You should pay them, especially knowing all the false teaching that's going on."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "They're laboring, striving, toiling, working hard to do what? To be godly and to preach the truth, and that's hard. You should pay them."
David: I guess it's a presumption that maybe the preachers and pastors at this church weren't paid or weren't paid well.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And, and he uses this Old Testament text, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, the, the hermeneutical jumps-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that Paul takes to get here are fascinating.
Seth: Amazing.
David: But he's talking about, okay, there's this Old Testament law that says when your ox is doing work, treading out-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the grain, hooked up to this thing, moving in a circle with a heavy millstone, crushing grain. That's hard work for the ox.
Seth: Yep.
David: Don't put a muzzle on its mouth that won't let it eat while it's working. Instead, make sure you put a feed bag on your ox whenever it's treading out the grain-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to make sure it's fed while it's doing hard work.
Seth: Or it can eat the corn that falls on the ground.
David: Or it can gr- yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Eat the corn that falls on the ground.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, like, treat your animal ethic, ethically.
Seth: Right. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
David: The one doing the hard work, make sure he's fed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so he makes this, this jump.
Seth: Jump.
David: What's the principle there? Those who work hard doing good deserve to be able to eat.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So you have pastors working hard and elders working hard in your church. Make sure they can eat.
Seth: I-
David: Pay them well
Seth: ... I'd have to go back and remember it, but one part of the temple is the, called the Sea.
David: Okay.
Seth: It held a whole bunch of water, and it was on the back of 12 oxen. And I believe it was 12 oxen. Somebody can correct me. But the idea is that oxen, animals, represent the leaders of Israel.
David: Oh.
Seth: The leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel. They're, they're holding up the, the, the, the nations. They're holding up-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... the people of God.
David: Oh.
Seth: So in a similar sen- situation here, like, the ox are the people of God. They're the leaders of God's kingdom, and they should eat-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as they're doing the task of leading. Like, anyway, just-
David: I see. So there might have been some kind of history behind this that elders might have been called the oxes of the congregation.
Seth: Yeah. Well, in the original, in Solomon's Temple, the leaders were depicted as oxen.
David: Yeah, that's what...
Seth: So, yeah.
David: I, I wondered if that carried over.
Seth: Yes. I, I, I bet it did.
David: That's interesting. We should start calling our church's elders the ox.
Seth: The ox, [laughs] the ox of the church. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Okay. Okay, cool. So that's what you do with the good ones.
Seth: Yes.
David: You feed them.
Seth: You feed them.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And you presume their innocence.
David: Oh, right, yeah.
Seth: So if-
David: If somebody brings a slander against them, you don't go like, "Oh, well, we better fire him then."
Seth: Yeah, do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. So, yeah, like, presume their innocence, pay them well. Another thing that could be happening here is that because of the influence of Hymenaeus and Alexander-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because of poor leadership in the past, the people are just presuming the worst-
David: Right
Seth: ... all church leaders. They don't deserve to be paid. There shouldn't be a leadership structure here-
David: Oh
Seth: ... because all church leaders are bad. And Paul's like, "Hold on, hold on. No, no. Sin's a real thing. Let's not just-
David: Do away with all leadership because somebody said something wrong.
Seth: Yeah.
David: On the evidence of two or three witnesses do we start evaluating whether or not an elder's been disqualified from leadership.
Seth: Interesting. But that happens all the time.
David: All the time.
Seth: I mean, in the church world and in the business world, it's like some corrupt thing happens at a company, the CFO is laundering funds or something-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it's like, "You know what? Just fire the whole C-suite."
David: Right.
Seth: It's like, "Wait, did you see if anybody else was guilty or party to that?" "No, it's just cle- it's just better if we just-
David: It's easier to do that
Seth: ... right, than do the investigation. And Paul's like, "No, we love people, and they're our fathers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and we don't just fire our fathers for no reason." [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah, that's interesting. But, uh, that also happens in the church where it's just like-
David: All the time.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, you... [laughs] Well, you said that with a lot of weight.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: You know more stories than I do as a former pastor.
David: Yeah. Yeah, and it's... And then he goes on to say to not show partiality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, there's, there's a sense that you can be biased against church leaders. [laughs] Like, Timothy could be biased against-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the church leaders that were there before him.
Seth: Yeah, I mean c-
David: Like, yeah, this speaks a lot-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: ... yeah, it speaks a lot to us today where it's like we, we've all seen a fallen pastor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Somebody we respect in the church who messed it up.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's easy to maybe do what some of the people in Timothy's church wanted to do and just write the whole thing off. Why even have leaders in the church, especially male leaders?
Seth: Right.
David: They're so corrupt. And it's like, wait, do you know that they're all corrupt?
Seth: What's the pro-
David: Don't show partiality.
Seth: And he's like, "Here's the process to go through, Timothy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to, like, mitigate some of those risks but also hear the complaints of your people well." Um, and so then what do you do with people who have been found to be guilty? Well, if they persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, make it public.
David: Right.
Seth: Which again, like remember, the reputation of the church is on the line. So-
David: Yeah, he's not saying sweep it under the rug.
Seth: No. So if you have bad leaders who are taking advantage of people, like, or whatever-
David: Call it out
Seth: ... right, call it out. Let the whole world see the problems-
David: Right
Seth: ... within your church, rebuke it publicly, and then move on so that the rest-
David: Right
Seth: ... may stand in fear.
David: But that only happened after the credible witness of two or three witnesses came.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They found out that it was true, and then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they paid the piper.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It wasn't just like, "You know what? Let's just throw the baby out with the bath water."
Seth: Right.
David: And we had Hymenaeus and Alexander. They were bad apples-
Seth: Mm
David: ... so throw out the bunch.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Interesting.
Seth: Yeah, and then what's interesting, he says do all this in the presence of two or three witnesses. Only admit a charge-
David: You trying to go back to Deuteronomy again?
Seth: Uh, [laughs] against two or three witnesses. But then again in verse 21-
David: That's Deuteronomy language
Seth: ... in verse 21, he says, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the elect angels," three witnesses.
David: Oh.
Seth: "In the presence of God-
David: Interesting
Seth: ... Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging and without partiality."
David: Without prejudging?
Seth: Yeah, that's the ESV's translation-
David: Wow
Seth: ... I'm staring at right now. So like-
David: That is really cool
Seth: ... don't go with your own gut, Timothy.
David: Mm.
Seth: Evaluate the evidence fairly and move forward from there.
David: Man.
Seth: So he, a har- Timothy's got a hard job.
David: He's got a hard job, yeah.
Seth: And then he says, "Don't be hasty in laying on hands."
David: Which means the... That's, that's how they appointed the elders was-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the laying on of hands to say-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "You're an elder now."
Seth: That's right.
David: So saying, you've said this before, good cultures hire slow and fire fast.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] So don't be too hasty to lay on your hands, and if you see that they've actually committed some kind of gross misconduct-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... call it out.
Seth: Right. The reputation of the church is on the line.
David: The reputation of the church is on the line.
Seth: And I think that's confirmed by verse 24 and 25, "The sins of some people are conspicuous, they, they go before them, and some people's sins appear later. Don't be hasty because you may not see their bad deeds until later on."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "But in the same way, good works are also conspicuous, and even good works that aren't immediately seen will eventually show up." Why be slow in appointing new leaders? Because good works or bad works are always found out, and so are good works.
David: Right.
Seth: You want time to see the character of the men you're putting in charge.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then from that, appoint your leaders for the church. Why? The reputation of the church is on the line.
David: Right.
Seth: We want the reputation of the church to be conspicuously full of good works. The reputation of the widows should be of good works and hospitality. The, uh, reputation of the leaders should be the same.
David: Mm. So what's the good news there for this, like, word to elders?
Seth: I guess part of it is the, the continued idea that godly people of character when placed in a church save the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, like, there, like, I think that's still part of the good news of the church. The church is the only institution that we're told that will never fail.
David: Right.
Seth: The gates of hell will not withstand against the church of God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When godly men and women of character em- embody the gospel, live godly lives, lead and serve well, the world is saved. That's good news, the, the power of the church. But also I guess the good news is that this is Jesus. He's the good leader.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's the head of the house.
David: Yeah. He's the one who, uh, shows no partiality, who is always above reproach-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... who can never be slandered or proven guilty, that no matter if every pastor failed-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Jesus is the head of the household-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and his innocence is unimpeachable. He's just above reproach-
Seth: Mm
David: ... always, and that's why the church will never fail is 'cause it's the head of it, the dad of the house, the, you know, our Father God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is above reproach always.
Seth: Also thinking that one of the things the Pharisees failed to do-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when they accused Jesus was to gather two or three witnesses.
David: Right. They, they manufactured false witnesses, but they could not make an accusation stick, and they had to depend on mob rule.
Seth: So Timothy and his leadership of the church should not repeat the sins of the Pharisees.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Right, yeah
Seth: ... the Pharisees, they did not listen to this rule, Timothy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they crucified Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: Maybe the stakes aren't as high in your church-
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: ... but, like, you can still make the same mistake the Pharisees did-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by not following... that protocol. You could be condemning and falsely accusing godly men-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you're not following through with, like, getting the evidence [laughs]
David: Right
Seth: ... before you take them off-
David: Hearing the whole story
Seth: ... the elder team.
David: Yeah. Okay. [upbeat music] All right. Last stop on our tour of the household is everyone's favorite.
Seth: The slaves.
David: The slaves. [laughs]
Seth: It's... I always feel like I take a deep breath-
David: Yep
Seth: ... before we get to the slave commands, but here we go. Let me just read it. It's only two verses.
David: Okay.
Seth: "Let all who are under a yoke of, as bondservants, as slaves, regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled." Again, just notice the reputation of the church is on the line.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This, this is what's on the line for Paul. "Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers." Think... So what he's saying here is Christian masters and Christian slaves are actually brothers in Christ, and that's true.
David: Right.
Seth: But that's not a reason to disrespect your master.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what he's saying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Rather, Christian slaves must serve all the better, since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved."
David: Mm.
Seth: So the reputation of the church is on the line.
David: Okay.
Seth: And part of every Roman household were slaves. We've talked at length about the nature of Romans-
David: The difference between indentured ec- economic slavery and race-based slavery
Seth: ... Uh, we've talked about that a lot.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, you can listen to our previous podcast to hear us unpack that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the most basic thing that's on the line here is Paul is admitting the equality and familial relationship between slaves and masters.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You are brothers in Christ.
David: Right. That's just true.
Seth: And slaves, you are right to point it out.
David: Right.
Seth: But just because you are brothers, that doesn't automatically erase your social distinctions right now.
David: Right.
Seth: And the way that you live within that, those social categories actually can harm the reputation of the church.
David: Right. Even though you slaves are brothers of your masters, I need you to treat them with honor so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because if inside the household of God, inside Christian Roman homes-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you had slaves revolting-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would be, like, such a bad omen-
Seth: Right
David: ... for the Christian church, and they would get such a bad rap in the Roman society that no one would want to have anything to do with them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They would be like, "You are going to erode our, the fabric of Roman society, Christians, because you're calling your slaves brothers, and now they don't respect their masters. The order's upset."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "The empire's gonna fall. No one wants-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to be a part of your church."
Seth: It's such a strange, like, truth to just get to understand.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When Christians said that slaves and masters are brothers, the Roman world would have heard danger.
David: Right.
Seth: Slaves do not exist. Slaves are property. They do not have legal status. In a Christian home, they are brothers with their master.
David: Co-heirs.
Seth: That breaks the entire Roman social structure.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so what's fascinating is Paul has to, to walk this crazy line.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, "Okay, the Roman ch- social structure is broken."
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus is emperor.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the Roman social structure no longer works.
David: Slaves are now brothers.
Seth: But knowing all that, how do we still live here? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Knowing that the social situation will not change now, how do we still live here?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Let respect govern your relationships in hopes that more Romans might be won over to the counter-cultural home of Jesus.
David: Well, I mean, just imagine the picture of a Roman looking into the Christian church and seeing the way a master would treat a slave, and maybe they even called themselves brothers.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "Hey, brother, I need you to do this with me today." And he's like, "Absolutely, brother." And it's like, what just happened? He's like, "You guys are talking to each other as equals, but he's still honoring you."
Seth: Occupy the same role.
David: Yeah. He's still honoring you as his master, even though he's your brother. What's going on? I have to learn more about this. That would just be so attractive.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "You're not upsetting my Roman sensibilities, but you're making me question them."
Seth: Right.
David: Like [laughs] which is just so interesting. That's what the counter-cultural way of the kingdom does. That's what it does to people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It just draws them in.
Seth: And I think, I think people are right to point out that Paul lays the seeds for the abolition of sa- slavery-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when he makes comments like that.
David: He does.
Seth: He's not-
David: Just like in Philemon
Seth: ... he's not making a case that slaves should be emancipated from their masters and abolish the Roman social system, or the Roman slavery system.
David: Yeah.
Seth: 'Cause that's not the point.
David: That's not, uh, that's not his point.
Seth: The point is-
David: But the groundwork's there
Seth: ... the groundwork's there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the point is the kingdom of God can be... Maybe a different way to say it. Slaves had a radically important job in the kingdom of God's expansion.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, the way masters and slaves treat each other is a demonstration of the truth of the gospel and the godliness it requires, and that will change the Roman Empire.
David: Mm.
Seth: It will undo the social structures they might suffer under, have suffered under previously.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know what I mean?
David: Can, can, can you unpack that? Like, the s-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the sla- the way a slave treats his master is an example of the gospel and can change the Roman Empire. Can you unpack-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that statement?
Seth: Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy to begrudgingly obey your master-
David: Ah
Seth: ... because you owe him a debt.
David: Right.
Seth: I put myself in servitude to you for the tune of 50,000 Roman lira, denari, whatever-
David: [laughs] Sure. Yeah. Great
Seth: ... [laughs] whatever the cur- currency is. That will take 25 years to pay off.
David: Mm.
Seth: I'm gonna punch my clock, and I'm gonna go home. You can serve your master that way.
David: Right.
Seth: That's pro- uh-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and that's probably the way most slaves-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... obeyed most of their masters.
David: Right.
Seth: There is a higher way to behave.
David: Mm.
Seth: That Jesus Christ himself became a slave.He died so that you may live.
David: I think I'm seeing what you're, what you're getting at now.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause it's like Jesus calls us His brother. He made us brothers. He was our brother.
Seth: But He's the master of the house.
David: But He's the, He's also the master of the house, who's also our brother, and yet He didn't have to become a slave, but He did.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And He became obedient, not just to a master, but He became obedient to death, as Philippians 2 says.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is the kind of life that the good, high calling, the mystery of godliness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that Jesus now calls slaves.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "You can repeat the gospel every day-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when you go into work."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because yeah, you're a brother now. You've been given, just as I had, a higher status.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And yet you can willingly choose to become a slave and to serve-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in order to show the world-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what I did. Like, that's amazing. You can-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... literally be a picture of the gospel. That, is that what you meant?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's right. You're a l-
David: That's cool
Seth: ... you're living, you're living out a picture of the gospel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in a way that would be difficult. It's easier-
David: That's difficult
Seth: ... to resent your master.
David: That's right.
Seth: Easy to go, to punch the clock.
David: Yes, which I think is a really good note to make, is just like the Christian life was never meant to be easy. Jesus proved it when He said-
Seth: Right
David: ... it was founded on the back of suffering, and the hard choice, and going to death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so He's like, like I think I've, I've heard people like, "I just can't imagine God calling a slave to do that."
Seth: Mm.
David: He's like, "He's not asking us to do anything He didn't do for us." Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know? Like-
Seth: Yeah, He's not telling us to do anything He didn't do for us, but the, the implication is, I can't imagine why Paul wouldn't just abolish the whole social system.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Yes, that's the other thing
Seth: ... like there's an implication that like, "No, the only reasonable thing to do is just have nothing to do with the system." Oka- yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And eventually that happens.
David: Right, but also you can show the gospel r- maybe even more clearly-
Seth: Right
David: ... through s- submission and obedience, 'cause that's what Jesus did.
Seth: Especially when your master is a fellow Christian.
David: Right.
Seth: That's also what kinda transforms this argument-
David: Yes
Seth: ... th- this, this conversation. What happens when you've entered into agreement with a master of yours based on an old social hierarchy that's transformed by your spiritual relationship with one another-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but you still owe him 30,000 denari-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and 10 years of, of work?
David: Right.
Seth: What, what happens in that situation?
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, I, uh, Paul's [laughs] trying to answer that question, you know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the good news is it can be a picture of Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: It can undermine the Roman social structure-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and save people.
David: Yeah, that's amazing. And so I guess we've already kinda said the good news of this part, which is that Jesus, though He was a brother, though He was the master of the house, He became a slave, uh, to pay our indentured debt- [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and free us, and make us brothers, elevate us out of slavery.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and He did that willingly. And so no matter what our station in life is, w- we can go low, be humble, serve others, because we know in doing so we are imaging the greatest mystery of godliness ever, which is Christ crucified.
Seth: Mm-hmm, and through that, saving the world.
David: Yeah. Okay. Well, that's cool. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us today.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This was fun. Um, uh, I guess we'll wrap up 1 Timothy next week.
Seth: Wrap up 1 Timothy next week and talk about-
David: Chapter 6
Seth: ... contentment.
David: Ooh, contentment.
Seth: What all the Buddhists want.
David: That's good. What all the Buddhists want.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay. Okay.
Seth: And Christians.
David: And Christians.
Seth: And Christians.
David: Yeah, I think we all want contentment.
Seth: At, all, all of us do.
David: Yeah. Okay. Well, we will see you guys next week, um, in 1 Timothy 6, and we'll talk about contentment. Excited about that. So thank you for joining us, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
