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1 Peter 5: The Rise and Fall of Church Leaders

About This Episode

1 Peter 5 talks to church leaders in an era where all leaders seem to be evil and overpowering. And more pressingly, for most of us, is it possible to submit to leaders who so often prove themselves unworthy of following? Seth and David talk about why the gospel is good news for leaders and how the church can be a new Eden where humility, leadership, and submission coexist.

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What 1 Peter 5 Says About Godly Leadership

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart close out their series on 1 Peter by diving into the final chapter, a passage that speaks directly to church leaders and members alike about what it looks like to lead and follow well in a world full of broken authority.

Peter the Failure Speaks to Fellow Leaders

Peter opens this chapter by calling himself "a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of the Messiah, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed" (1 Peter 5:1). What makes this remarkable is Peter's own history. He denied Jesus three times while Jesus was being beaten and falsely accused. He watched Christ suffer from the seat of his own cowardice. And yet, after the resurrection, Jesus came to Peter three times and said, "Feed my lambs" (John 21:15-17). Peter was not disqualified by his failure. He was restored through it and called to shepherd. So when Peter tells the elders of these scattered, persecuted churches to "shepherd the flock of God that is among you" (1 Peter 5:2), he is drawing on his own experience of devastating failure and gracious restoration. He is saying, in effect, "I wasn't disqualified, and neither are you."

This is good news for every leader who has felt that their suffering or shortcomings make them unfit to serve. Throughout this letter, Peter has argued that suffering for righteousness' sake is the normal Christian experience. Now he applies that directly to pastors, elders, and anyone exercising spiritual oversight. Suffering does not disqualify a leader. It actually confirms their calling. If Jesus, the chief Shepherd, was the preeminent sufferer, then those who lead under him should expect nothing less.

A Different Kind of Authority

Throughout 1 Peter, those in authority have been painted in a negative light. The household codes described slave masters, husbands, kings, and rulers as part of the pagan power structure that persecutes God's people (1 Peter 2:13-3:7). Even the spiritual realm has been marked by evil authorities, including the rebellious Nephilim Peter referenced earlier in his letter (1 Peter 3:19-20). Every example of leadership so far has been oppressive, abusive, or corrupt. So when Peter turns to the elders and tells them to "exercise oversight," the contrast is striking and intentional.

Peter lays out what godly leadership looks like by describing what it is not: "Not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock" (1 Peter 5:2-3). These warnings assume that some leaders in Peter's churches were, in fact, leading under compulsion, chasing personal gain, and lording their power over others. The pattern of broken leadership is not new. It stretches from the ancient world to the modern church. But Peter does not respond to broken leadership by dismantling the idea of leadership altogether. He calls leaders to a fundamentally different way of leading, one modeled on the suffering and humility of Jesus.

Humility as the Mark of True Leadership

Peter expands the call beyond elders to the entire church: "Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble" (1 Peter 5:5). This is not a soft, sentimental appeal. In Scripture, humility in its truest form looks like dying for your people. That is what Jesus did. He humbled himself to the point of Death on a cross, and God exalted him (Philippians 2:8-9). Elders should be the first ones willing to die for those in their care.

Peter singles out young people specifically, telling them to "be subject to the elders" (1 Peter 5:5). This is a pointed word for anyone tempted to reject the very idea of submitting to church leadership because of past hurt or the failures of other leaders. Peter is not naive about the reality of broken churches. But he warns that an unwillingness to submit to humble, godly leaders is its own form of pride, and God opposes the proud. The call is to "humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you" (1 Peter 5:6-7). There is something about this mutual humility between leaders and members that reflects the very design of Eden, a community where God and his people dwell together and his Kingdom grows.

The Devil at the Door of the New Eden

If the church is meant to function as a new Eden, a living temple where God dwells among his people, then the presence of a prowling enemy should not surprise us. "Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). The slithering serpent of Genesis has become a roaring lion, and his target has not changed. He wants to destroy the community of God's people, and one of his most effective strategies is corrupting its leaders.

There is a powerful connection back to Peter's own story. When Jesus told his disciples that he must go and suffer and die, Peter rebuked him: "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matthew 16:22). Jesus responded, "Get behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23). The lie Peter believed in that moment is the same lie the devil whispers to every leader: leaders do not go low, they go high. Leaders do not suffer, they thrive. If following God were really the right path, it would not hurt this much. Peter now identifies that lie for what it is. The denial of suffering is a Satanic deception. Anytime a leader faces two paths, one of comfort with a little compromise and another of full commitment and suffering, the devil is present, trying to devour. The only way forward is the way of the cross.

Suffering Is Certain, and So Is Resurrection

Peter closes his letter with a promise: "After you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in the Messiah, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. To him be the dominion forever and ever" (1 Peter 5:10-11). The suffering is real, but it is temporary. The God who holds all dominion and authority, the Jesus who suffered, died, and rose again, promises to personally restore those who endure.

Peter writes this letter from Rome, but he does not call it Rome. He calls it Babylon (1 Peter 5:13). Babylon was the ancient empire that first exiled God's people, and it became the biblical archetype for every kingdom that sets itself against God. By naming Rome as the new Babylon, Peter is saying that the oppressive powers of this world are nothing new. Empires rise and fall, but God's people endure. Many churches today feel like Babylon, broken by abusive leaders and systemic failures. And yet even there, God brings resurrection. For God's people, suffering is inevitable, but so is glory. One confirms the other. You cannot have resurrection without the cross. And the Jesus who walked that road first now leads his church through it, all the way to an unfading crown of glory (1 Peter 5:4).

Transcript

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you, uh, for joining us on our last day in 1 Peter. We're in 1 Peter-

Seth: Very last day

David: ... chapter five.

Seth: Yes.

David: Seth, how are you?

Seth: I'm doing great.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I'm excited to close out 1 Peter.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Excited to start 2 Peter next week. I'm just... It feels like a good day.

David: So, yeah. So as I was preparing-

Seth: Yes

David: ... for 1 Peter 5, the last, the last chapter, I realized something that most people don't know.

Seth: Okay.

David: That, that Peter didn't write 1 Peter.

Seth: Okay.

David: Silvanus did.

Seth: What?

David: I mean, he wrote it down, but Peter was the author. [laughs]

Seth: Is this a funny thing?

David: This is-

Seth: You set it up like a joke-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and it feels like a fact. [laughs]

David: [laughs] It is a joke, but also a fact.

Seth: Why is it a joke?

David: Because Silvanus was the stenographer who used the pen and paper-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... to write down the letter.

Seth: Right.

David: But Peter or- oratorated it.

Seth: He actually-

David: He dictated it.

Seth: It... I still don't think [laughs] that's a joke.

David: I think it's funny.

Seth: [laughs] If you laughed at that-

David: You are a-

Seth: ... send an email, because I don't believe [laughs] it's-

David: Oh, okay. Now, guys, listen up. Okay. Podcast family.

Seth: If anybody laughed-

David: You can't leave me hanging on this, that if I said, you know, 1 Peter didn't, or Peter didn't write 1 Peter, Silvanus did, ba dum tss, and you got it and you laughed, please email me.

Seth: I... [sighs]

David: I wanna hear from you.

Seth: Please email, 'cause I don't believe it's a joke. [laughs]

David: Go podcast, [email protected].

Seth: We could ask you to email us for all sorts of reasons.

David: This is the, the most important-

Seth: This is the most important thing you can do right now. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Go, go to spokengospel.com. We have a form. Fill it out. If you don't wanna remember-

Seth: It's not even a dad joke.

David: No.

Seth: It's not even, like, a pun off Peter's name-

David: It's a, it's a Bible nerd joke

Seth: ... Sil- Silvanus. You, you just-

David: It's just Silvanus wrote it, but, I mean, Peter was the author. [laughs]

Seth: It's just-

David: It's a funny s- stenographer joke.

Seth: Okay.

David: Amanuensis is a-

Seth: I b-

David: ... is the proper term

Seth: ... I believe you.

David: All right.

Seth: Until... I don't actually believe you until somebody responds [laughs] that they laughed.

David: That is, that was, that was funny. I think it's funny.

Seth: Well, great.

David: All right. So this is Team David, I'm calling to you.

Seth: Um-

David: If you exist out there. If there's-

Seth: If, if [laughs]

David: I wonder if there is Team David and Team Seth out there.

Seth: Email us at [laughs] Spoken-

David: [laughs] Where it's like, you know, like, I wonder if there's like, "Man, when David talks, I really connect," or, "When Seth talks, I really like it," and with the other guy, I'm just like, "Ah, can, can Seth keep talking?"

Seth: Could, could D-

David: "... 'cause David's really lost the plot."

Seth: Could David please just keep going because Seth is just-

David: Email us at Spoken-

Seth: ... too nasal-y

David: ... at spokengospel.com. Are you Team David or Team Seth? [laughs]

Seth: We, we, um, we're on it today.

David: We are crushing it. Um, anyway.

Seth: Oh.

David: So Peter wrote this letter.

Seth: Peter-

David: But Silvanus-

Seth: S- Sylvanus

David: ... Silvanus was the amanuensis who penned it.

Seth: Um, and he ends it, Peter ends his letter with an encouragement to the elders, the, the leaders of his church-

David: Yes

Seth: ... and to the members.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And, um, that's the whole thing.

David: That's the whole-

Seth: [laughs] That's the whole thing.

David: That's the whole thing.

Seth: I was gonna try to think of some, like, clever hook that, to get us in, but he's functionally just continuing the same-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... message that he's-

David: Well, a good, a good hook is, like, okay, we've talked about this church that's full of exiles and sojourners who are suffering for righteousness sake, navigating complex, interwoven evil societies. Imagine if you had to lead those people.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Imagine if you were the pastor at that church. Now Peter's gonna talk to them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause, uh-

Seth: That's right

David: ... very interesting.

Seth: And what I love is that Peter connects himself to the elders of these churches almost immediately.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "So I exhort you elders, as a fellow elder-"

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... "and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that's going to be revealed."

David: So he just, like, summed up the whole letter.

Seth: He summed up the whole letter.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's what he's been talking about the whole time, suffering like Christ experiences his glory.

David: His glory, yep.

Seth: And he's calling them to shepherd the flock of God that is among them-

David: Mm

Seth: ... exercising-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... yeah.

David: And he calls Jesus the chief shepherd here in a little bit.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And there's an interesting thing here that I wonder if some of the leaders of this church were suffering, you know, and thought it made them second-class Christians.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Where it's like, "Man, if I was a better Christian or if God was really on my side-"

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... "I wouldn't be suffering like this."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, "I don't know if I'm fit to lead."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, no, no, no, that's what makes you fit to lead.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "I too join in the sufferings of Christ as an elder," Peter's saying, "and will join in the glory. And Jesus, our chief shepherd, the shepherd of shepherds, was the preeminent sufferer."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Suffering does not mean you can't lead. [laughs]

Seth: Right.

David: Is, uh, this is good news.

Seth: It's great news.

David: For people who wanna lead in the church.

Seth: For, for, yes, because, I mean, as a pastor for 10 years-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... there is a degree of suffering for the sake, for righteousness sake-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and for the sake of the name that you do experience, and that suffering, uh, can feel like it's disqualifying you from leadership-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... whether that's because you feel like you've failed i- in a certain way or because, um, you can't lead under the weight.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Which is, I think, I don't know if that's what Peter means here, but, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that's the way I felt a lot. It's like I can't s- lead under the weight that I'm feeling-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and I need God. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: But, um-

David: I mean, I'm sure, and I know we hear from, from our audience, like, I, I'm sure we have a lot of pastors listening to this podcast.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And it's like, there's good news for you here in these pages, like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that-

Seth: That your pastoral elder leading suffering

David: It doesn't disqualify you

Seth: It doesn't disqualify you

David: It actually qualifies you

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: You cannot be a leader of the church and not suffer

Seth: Yeah

David: It just doesn't work

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah

David: Your suffering confirms your eldership, your leadership-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... of the church

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: And if you're not suffering with Christ, you're not leading with Christ

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: And so don't feel disqualified-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... all suffering pastors and elders-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and church leaders, um, and community group leaders, and anybody who-

Seth: Who's leading

David: ... leaders of your family

Seth: Yeah

David: It's, it's okay. Suffering for righteousness sake doesn't disqualify you

Seth: Yeah

David: So that's, that's good

Seth: Yeah. We're already rolling on the good news

David: [laughs] On the good news

Seth: Um-

David: Okay. Yep

Seth: I think it's fascinating

David: Mm

Seth: So this is a different note, but the, the metaphor he uses of shepherd the flock of God among you-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the gr- the great shepherd. Jesus is the great shepherd. This is not the only time in the Bible-

David: Right

Seth: ... that shepherd or the idea of pastoral leadership, shepherding leadership is used. But I do think it's interesting that Peter is the one talking about this-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because of what Peter did

David: Mm

Seth: So Peter denied Jesus three times

David: Okay

Seth: Uh, perhaps out of cowardice, uh, perhaps out of, uh, moti- any number of motivations-

David: Right

Seth: ... but, but he denied Jesus three times. And then when Jesus, uh, finally dies-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... he feels the weight of that

David: Right

Seth: And then when Jesus resurrects, Jesus comes to Peter and asks him three different times, "Do you love me?"

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: And each time Peter says, "Yes, I do, Lord." And then Jesus responds with, "Then feed my lambs."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: "Feed my lambs."

David: Be a shepherd

Seth: Be a shepherd. Um, so I think it's really interesting that-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as Peter's rounding down this letter, speaking to other leaders of the churches, he's going back to his past to one of the moments of his greatest failures in leadership, failures as a disciple of Jesus-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and how that actually is the way, the path through which Jesus called him up to be the rock of the church

David: Yeah

Seth: Uh, the-

David: It's really interesting

Seth: Um-

David: And like, uh, or his confession was the rock of the church

Seth: Yes

David: But yeah. Uh, it's also interesting, like he says, "A fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ."

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: W- from where and in what situation did Peter witness the sufferings of Christ?

Seth: I mean-

David: From his own seat of denial

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, for him to say-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... "I... Guys, I was there when Jesus was condemned and suffered to die"

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... what was going on when he was doing that?

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: Denial

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: For him to s- like, claim that, like, that-

Seth: That's a big deal. Right

David: ... he was a witness in s- to suffering of Christ-

Seth: He was an eye shit. I mean-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Jesus looked at him-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as he was being falsely accused and beaten

David: Right. And so for him to, for him to throw himself back into that moment and then say the same words that Jesus said to him, "So shepherd the flock," I mean, he's saying like, "I wasn't disqualified, and neither are you"

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: It's just like, whoa

Seth: It's pretty powerful

David: It's very powerful. Okay

Seth: It's really powerful. Uh-

David: Like, and why? Because Christ suffered for him

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: Like, because he's the chief shepherd

Seth: Yeah

David: Because y- Peter was the lamb that Jesus fed [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: You know? Okay

Seth: No, it's good

David: Yeah. Uh, and it's also interesting, too, um, shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: So, uh, this is, this is... This could be a touchy subject for some people

Seth: The idea of elder, pastor, or leader-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in general

David: Yeah, where it's like there is a Biblical pattern, and w- and we're not gonna get into the details, uh, because there's lots of opinions, around church governance

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: What should the local body of Christ look like? Um, well, here he's talking about there's elders. Presbuteros is the-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is the Greek word used here, um, where we get the, the term like presbytery-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... or presbyter or Presbyterians-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... which is a reference to how their churches are structured. Um, but regardless of that, there is oversight-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... by leaders in the local body of the church

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: Um, and we'll get into how they're supposed to lead

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: But, like, it's just like he just kinda drops it there

Seth: Ah

David: It's just like, okay

Seth: As an assumption. Like-

David: Yeah, as an assumption

Seth: Of course

David: So you're exercising oversight. It's like, why? [laughs] Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... and does... I don't know if... I, I'm, like, trying to see if there's a thread poking out-

Seth: Uh-huh

David: ... off the sweater that I can pull

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: And it's like, does that have anything to do with what, uh, Peter's been talking about-

Seth: Mm

David: ... so far, that you've got these exiles who are, are out there navigating this world, and they have been told to leave their old life behind and live a new, good life, to suffer well, do good?

Seth: I think it's interesting that throughout the letter so far, people in authority have been seen negatively

David: Oh, my gosh, yes. G- yeah, go back to the household code section

Seth: The household code, it's the slave master-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the husband, the king, the ruler

David: Yes, yes. Those are always been the-

Seth: The pagan powers

David: Yeah, those have been the ones who don't believe, who are part of the other kingdom-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and they're gonna hurt you

Seth: And then even when he kinda spiritualizes it, he talked about spiritual authorities and sp- evil spiritual powers

David: Yeah, the Nephilim

Seth: The Nephilim

David: Yeah

Seth: Like, so, like, leaders throughout this book-

David: Mm

Seth: ... have been painted negatively, uh-

David: Yeah, so for him to-

Seth: ... because they're the ones-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... persecuting

David: Right. So for him to turn then, every time he's talking, you know, spoken truth to power [laughs]

Seth: Right

David: It's to say like, "Yeah, you're the evil ones in power."

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: "And my good little lambs are gonna shame you by their good deeds." So then he turns to the elders, and he says, "Shepherd the flock. Like, exercise oversight"

Seth: Yeah. So what's the way to be a godly elder-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a godly leader, when all other leadership examples you have are-

David: Yep

Seth: ... abusive-

David: Yep

Seth: ... are painful, are demeaning, are-

David: Right. Yeah

Seth: ... wrong

David: It's like you, you have to be a leader who has a different citizenship, who lives-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in a different world, who t- who, who's a part of a different story, as we've been talking about-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... all throughout 1 Peter. And so he says, "Exercise oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly, not domineering over those w- uh, in your charge, but being examples to the flock."

Seth: Yep

David: So don't-Like, don't lead under compulsion

Seth: Don't do it because you have to.

David: Yep. Lead willingly That's what God wants Don't do it for shameful gain. Don't do it to get, get rich or gain power or put people under you. Do it eagerly and don't domineer over those

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: But instead, treat them as, like, your children

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: Your, your lambs and your, in, in your care. Like, tend them

Seth: Yeah

David: Yeah. Interesting. It, it's interesting just to think about-

Seth: Right

David: ... the elders as the opposite foil for-

Seth: Right

David: ... I mean, I-

Seth: I know-

David: ... these other powers

Seth: ... we would not be the only people listening to the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: As we're, you know, recording this one, and the whole podcast is about the failures of church leaders

David: Right

Seth: The failures of leadership in general, outside the church. Th- this, today's episode has a reference to, like, failures of leadership in basketball teams

David: Oh

Seth: Like, like, like, there's just leadership issues, domineering leaders-

David: Right

Seth: ... um, leaders who are in it for the shameful gain-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for the popularity-

David: Right

Seth: ... for the promotion, for the platform, are kind of everywhere

David: Yeah

Seth: So how are we supposed to lead, um, is really a live issue

David: Totally

Seth: And I just, I'm just really mi- ... As I ... Uh, the more I'm thinking about this passage, I'm like, my gosh, like, speaking to leaders-

David: Mm

Seth: ... as leaders, to continue to lead when all other leaders have proven themselves incompetent or, um, evil

David: Yeah

Seth: It's just a very tricky position to, to put yourself in

David: Yeah. So, like, I mean, a question I have-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and I, I have a, an answer here in verse one-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... but, like, the rhetorical-ish question I wanna ask-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is, okay then, if leadership's such a live issue [laughs]

Seth: Right

David: And it clearly always has been

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah

David: I mean, you have to assume with what he's saying here that there were leaders of his churches who were domineering-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Right

David: ... working under compulsion, and doing it for shameful gain. It's like, God, it's terrible. Uh, so you had bad leaders there. How can anyone hope to be a good elder, to be a good pastor-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to be a good leader? Like, how do we do that as Christians?

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: If the snare of leadership, uh, so far, and Peter as a, as a husband, as a, uh, as a master, or a business owner-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you know, or as a leader o- of a principality or a nation, if all of those are just tarnished with pitfalls-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and sin and evil authority structures-

Seth: Mm

David: ... how can any of us hope to lead well?

Seth: How can we, David? [laughs]

David: [laughs] It's an eternal question. Uh, I mean, it's just like, it, you do it as a witness to the sufferings of Christ

Seth: Mm

David: If you, in your leadership, aren't suffering for righteousness sake, but instead find yourself padded-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and comfortable and cloistered off, you know, it's like, that should be a wake-up call to you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that if your leadership leads to more comfort, less suffering-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... then something's probably off in-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... your equations

Seth: I think the, the words that stand out to me in that is willingly and eagerly, then

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: I think the temptation, uh, for me as a pastor, was always, like, it's always easier not to lean in-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to other people's sin, to other people's issues. Like, it's hard

David: Yeah

Seth: It's hard to lean into the cor- that, the correction that that guy really needs to have

David: Right. It's easier to sit in my office and write a dope sermon

Seth: Yeah

David: That's way easier

Seth: Yeah

David: And it doesn't make me suffer. In fact, I love it, you know? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. It's difficult to be an example to the flock

David: Yeah. Right

Seth: Um-

David: Live your life right in front of them, out loud

Seth: Yeah

David: Yeah

Seth: And, uh, I, I wonder if he, like, sees that as a type of suffering

David: Mm.

Seth: Leadership as a... Leadership in this way is a type of suffering

David: Suffering for righteousness

Seth: Yeah

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah

David: I'm leading, you know, and you assume if they're doing it eagerly and not domineeringly, they're doing it for righteousness sake.

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: And as leaders of a church who's already being persecuted, the leaders are gonna be persecuted all the more

Seth: Right

David: So they're literally suffering for righteousness-

Seth: Mm

David: ... just by the simple act of being an elder-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in these churches. And so, yeah, I think he is, um, doing that. And I just think today, it's like, if there's not a resonance there-

Seth: Mm

David: ... you know, between your leadership and Jesus on the cross-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... there's a disconnect-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that leaders suffer. That's like, it's become so watered down with, like, lead like Christ or be a servant leader-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... or wash feet, you know? Like, it's so hard to connect now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... with how diluted that idea has become. Um, yeah.

Seth: Yeah

David: Peter just kind s- k- kinda comes across as scathing a little bit. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: Even though it's meant to be comforting. [laughs]

Seth: Right. It's, yeah, yeah. It's, yeah.

David: It's meant to be very comforting. Uh, yeah.

Seth: He says it, in the second, he says, like, "Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility towards one another, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And is thinking about the priority of humility-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as a leader, most generally, but also the way, that Jesus's death and suffering is described as humility.

David: Yes.

Seth: What is truest humil- what is humility in its truest form? It's dying for your people

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right?

David: Definitely. Definitely.

Seth: Um-

David: Elders should be the first one to die for their people

Seth: Yeah

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: Um, and I, I'm a- I'm also thinking, like, there's also this, uh, cha- verse four has a, has another impetus for a good, godly leader. When the chief shepherd, Jesus, appears, you will receive an unfading crown of glory. Like, so many leaders lead for the glory of the moment, for the glory of what they're leading

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah

David: And it's like, and that's gonna skew your leadership

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: Right? Because you're gonna end up doing things for shameful gain. You're gonna be domineering, 'cause you're trying to move the ship-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in a direction of your glory. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: But if you keep the day of Jesus' return in your head, and that's what you're working for, it's gonna put things in perspective.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And you'll make different kinds of decisions and be a different kind of leader

Seth: Yeah

David: It's interesting.

Seth: It's super interesting. Um-

David: Um-

Seth: What's the good news for leaders?

David: Yeah, I was about to say, I was gonna say, well, first off, there's the example of Christ

Seth: Yeah

David: Right? That Jesus is God in the flesh and is the head of the church. It's not the pope

Seth: Right.

David: I- and I'm not making a Catholic-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... Protestant thing here.

Seth: Right.

David: They would agree, too.

Seth: Sure.

David: The head of the church is Jesus.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, like, and yet, the chief shepherd, the head of the church, suffered and died for our evil and our unrighteousness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, like, that is the good news. Like, that we have that kind of leader at the head. Like, that... And I think the good news for leaders-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and for members-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... are that n- no matter if you feel like an inept leader, maybe the suffering's too hard-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... or maybe you've messed up a lot of times as a leader, maybe you have been domineering, what hope do you have that you could finally be a good leader?

Seth: Mm.

David: It's because you're being led-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... by a chief shepherd who was not afraid to suffer, because he knew that he would receive an unfading crown of glory.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Jesus is your head. You can follow him, and he will lead you-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... 'cause you're in his flock.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then for members, it's like, how could I ever submit to the church again? How could I ever be a church member again? Every leader I've ever met in the church is domineering, and for shameful gain, manipulative-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... chauvinistic, whatever you wanna call it, hurtful.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: How could I ever be a part of the church again? Because the head of the church is the suffering, loving, compassionate Christ.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's the head. And-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... y- you know, it's like-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... there's an invitation there for even those who have been hurt.

Seth: Yeah, and I think this goes back to something we started the first Peter series with-

David: Mm

Seth: ... um, about the temple of God, and us being a new nation in a new temple built up of living stones.

David: Right, you are living stones built together to form a new spiritual house.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: What is the church supposed to be?

David: The temple.

Seth: The temple, a n- a new Eden.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: A new place where God and man live together-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... where there are some priests among priests-

David: Mm

Seth: ... who lead and facilitate the kingdom.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The new Eden. And I think it's fascinating that even here we have that same language of being subject to, submissive to. There is something about humble submission that's part of the new Eden.

David: Mm.

Seth: Um, and when humble leaders and humble members treat each other the way that they're s- meant to be treated, the kingdom of God grows.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Eden is established in a local church, in a local body. Like, we can't submit because the leaders have been so bad in the past-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is, is a threat.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But when there's good leaders, humble leaders, and humble members, that's actually new Eden.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So to dismiss the idea of leaders as all evil or the i- idea of submitting to elders as evil is actually to deny the way that the new Eden in the church seems to want to form itself, right?

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... humble yourselves therefore under the almighty, the mighty hand of God, so at the proper time He may exalt you, casting your anxieties on Him because He cares for you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There's something about humility before others that is actually the consummation of what God hopes for the temple, casting your anxiety, your fears, your sins on Him-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and Him forgiving you. What's heaven gonna be except the c- final casting of all desires-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and anxieties onto Him, Him resolving them as we submit, and bow, and sing about how great He is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, there's something in humility that, and especially in the church setting as it relates to leaders and members, that ties all the way back to Eden-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and the idea that we are a new te- new temple with God. I, I'm just kinda riffing there, but like-

David: Yeah, no, I think I'm following you, um, that, and let's see if I can word it a different way.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause I think you're making a really great biblical, theological connection from Genesis to now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that there's something about the way we as priests, and priests among priests or elders, uh, work together, um, with each other in community to create new Edens around the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, that, that these are new Eden projects.

Seth: Mm.

David: They're called the local church.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And there is mutual humility, co-laboring, but also oversight because you can't submit to someone, you know-

Seth: That's-

David: ... that's not over you in a sense.

Seth: Right.

David: You know, you can, but you know what I'm saying. Uh, but I think an- like, to tie that to what we were talking about is, like, we've, we've talked about s- so much, like even last week we talked about, like, there's this interconnected, intermeshed evil in the world, and it's so hard to parse those things out. And a lot of people, I think, have been in churches that have just been infiltrated with sin-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and been led by leaders that have, have sin. And like- [laughs]

Seth: Right

David: ... it's a tangly, messy world-

Seth: Mm

David: ... where there's just a lot of spiritual powers behind the powers and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... sin within people, and it creates hard situations. Um, eh- eh- eh- but to say that, like, then all churches are that way or all leadership structures are that way-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is-

Seth: Or that the idea of leaders at all-

David: In, in general is evil-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... um, is to ignore the call of Eden and to ignore the call of being priests in the world and to ignore the call of being the living temple of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That when we say, like, no, it's still the right idea to submit to good, healthy, humble elders in a local church because in doing so, we turn back the, the script of broken churches.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: We put to shame broken churches-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... by suffering for righteousness sake and being humble. And-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... like, we can create, like, we can create a countercultural church not by shirking oversight, and elder boards-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and authority, but by doing it well and in Christ.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And-

Seth: By shirking the domineering, the shameful gain-

David: Yes. Right

Seth: ... uh, and the pride.

David: Yeah.

Seth: ... endemic within so many churches, and the rest of the world.

David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Seth: Um.

David: So I think it's interesting that in verse five he singles out young people.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah.

David: "Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders."

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's just like, "Man, whatever, Peter." You know? [laughs] "Back off, man."

Seth: [laughs]

David: Uh, it's like, I mean, he's reading, he's reading our mail-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... as millennials-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in the 21st century. 'Cause it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the young people are the one- a lot of, a lot of the times the ones who are like, "I don't think... I, I don't know if I ever can submit to an, an eldership" or-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... something.

Seth: Right. Or even, like... Yeah.

David: So-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that's interesting. And then the, and the, the, and the, the next thing he says is, "Submit to elders, young people. Clothe yourself in humility," 'cause, because God-

Seth: Right

David: ... opposes the proud. He's like, "If you're not willing to submit to the elders in a healthy church," you know-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it means you're proud.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And God opposes that.

Seth: Or you'll submit eventually.

David: Yeah, you'll submit-

Seth: But-

David: ... eventually.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah. Because God's mighty hand is over you.

Seth: Right.

David: You know, the next verse you read. Okay.

Seth: Uh-

David: That's all interesting.

Seth: So-

David: Um, yeah. Anything you wanna wrap up there, especially, like, why is all that good news or-

Seth: Well, I mean, I think let's, let's go... So what is... I wanna go back to Eden-

David: Okay

Seth: ... because the next verse is talking about the prowling devil-

David: Oh

Seth: ... in the context of humility and pride.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, we ha- like, if we're, if we're defining the problem rightly-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and thinking about the church correctly as a renewed Eden-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, a place where authority and submission work in a way that's not domineering, in a way that's not for shameful gain-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and it's not under compulsion, we're actually... But we're still in the empire of the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Verse six, "Your adversary, the devil, prowls around you like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

David: Right.

Seth: Like, the threat of Eden-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the threat that came into Eden is still present in this world.

David: Right. The slithering snake is now a roaring lion.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He r- so, "Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brother throughout the world." Um, resist the devil, his lies of pride, knowing that every, Christians all around the world are suffering for righteousness' sake-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... just like you are. Um, because I think there's, like, there's, like... I'm trying to think of how to land this quite. In this whole conversation about abusive church leaders, um, the temptation is to say, "Well, we know how to do it better, and it's not that. And we're just gonna leave."

David: Right.

Seth: "We're just not gonna be a part of that whole system."

David: Right.

Seth: And Peter seems to be call-

David: So people aren't broken. The system's broken.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, and Peter's calling them back into a system of, like, submission-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and authority-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that is fraught.

David: Right.

Seth: A devil is-

David: Is there

Seth: ... is there.

David: Ready to devour the next leader.

Seth: Do- the, there are more domineering leaders to come.

David: Yep.

Seth: But suffering for righteousness' sake, being humble for righteousness' sake, being humble as Jesus was humble-

David: Mm

Seth: ... even if it means some sort of death to you, that's happening everywhere all the time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You're not the only ones doing it. In fact, that's the history of the church for thousands of years, and what's happening? It's growing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's expanding. The Church is still winning even though it's broken, right? [laughs]

David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Like, um, there's resurrection and glory.

David: Because of the suffering.

Seth: Even as we suffer in churches.

David: Yeah, yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: Man, so I can't help but think of something that you put in my brain.

Seth: Okay.

David: So I wanna put a footnote on this comment.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And this is credit Seth Stewart-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... 'cause I know it's something you wanna bring up, and I think-

Seth: Okay

David: ... this is a good time to bring it up, is he's talking about the devil, and he's talking about how to lead in the Church [laughs] and how to submit to authority.

Seth: Mm.

David: And we've already mentioned one part of Peter's past when he denied Christ.

Seth: Oh.

David: There's another time where Jesus mentions the devil and mentions even submitting to authority in a sense-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and talks to Peter. And it's when Jesus says that he must go and suffer and die at the hands of the elders and, and die on a cross-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but he'll be raised.

Seth: Mm.

David: And then Peter butts in and says, "By no means, Lord. You know, it's not gonna happen on my watch."

Seth: Mm.

David: "You're not gonna die." And then Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan."

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I just cannot help but think that Peter is trying to lead like the world.

Seth: Mm.

David: Leaders don't die.

Seth: Mm.

David: Leaders don't suffer. The King, the Messiah-

Seth: Mm

David: ... isn't going to go low.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Far be it from me for that to happen on my watch.

Seth: Right.

David: And then he's like, "You know who's saying that? You know who's putting that in your head and who's trying to put it in mine, Peter? It's this devil that's prowling around like a roaring lion-"

Seth: Mm

David: ... "seeking someone to devou- to devour." And that's the same lie that Satan is putting into destructive leaders all over the world-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is that, "No, no, no, leaders don't go low. They go high."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? "Leaders don't suffer. They thrive."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right?

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like anytime you've got two paths before you, and one is comfort and ease with a little bit of compromise, and the other is full-on commitment and suffering, you've got a get behind me, Satan, moment.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The devil wants you in that moment.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And the op- and the only option to not have Jesus say, "Get behind me, Satan," to you is to go suffer.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Anyway. [laughs]

Seth: No, I believe-

David: It's really intense

Seth: ... it's super intense. And I think another way to say it, and it's a, it's a different emphasis, same, same moment, is the denial of suffering.

David: Right.

Seth: You're not meant to suffer.

David: Yep. The, and the discrediting of it.

Seth: Right. And so, [sighs] yeah, so Peter d- m- s- telling Jesus, "You're, it's not right for you to suffer," him-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... saying, that's a Satanic lie. Uh-

David: Yeah, yeah

Seth: ... and so when we are trying to figure out our relationship with churches and elders, and we're like, "It's actually wrong. No, no, I can't suffer. It's wrong for me to enter in a situation I will suffer."Peter's saying that's actually a satanic lie.

David: Mm.

Seth: Because if you don't have humble people willing to enter into places they know they will suffer, we actually don't have a Jesus.

David: Right.

Seth: We don't have a resurrection.

David: Yep.

Seth: And the reality of church trauma, abusive leaders, all that's true-

David: Is real

Seth: ... you, there are churches you must leave.

David: Yes.

Seth: There are churches you must leave.

David: There are churches that must close. There are leaders who must resign or be fired, yes. But-

Seth: But there is a redemptive path for suffering in a local church as you submit to godly and humble leaders.

David: Yep, and it's, it's Jesus saying, "I must go and die."

Seth: Mm.

David: Like, [laughs] yeah. Okay. Well, that's amazing. It's, it's interesting to think about the mis- like, the, the mistrust of leaders as a satanic lie.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, or the-

Seth: The denial of suffering

David: ... or the denial of suffering-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as a satanic lie.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That it's like suffering cannot be part of God's plan. You know, like, like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... if, if I was doing what God wanted me to b- to do, be doing, it wouldn't be this hard.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I wouldn't be suffering.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Get behind me, Satan. [laughs] Like, it's not true. Uh, okay.

Seth: That's-

David: I mean, really interesting

Seth: ... after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal cl- glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

David: Mm.

Seth: To him be the dominion forever and ever. Um, you can suffer for a little while knowing who's actually the leader of the world.

David: Right, the Jesus who went and suffered and died rose again, and now-

Seth: Yes

David: ... he is the one who has oversight, not over one local church body-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... not over even just the body of Christ global-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but over the entire cosmos.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? He has all dominion and authority, and he is the one who says, "No matter what you suffer, I will confirm you, I will restore you, I will strengthen you-"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "... I will establish you." Like, you can trust him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it can lead you into suffering well. Okay.

Seth: And think about where Peter is writing this from.

David: Rome?

Seth: Babylon.

David: Babylon, the new Babylon.

Seth: He calls Rome-

David: Yep

Seth: ... Babylon-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... which is an interesting way to end the letter for a couple reasons. One, Babylon was an ancient city that was kind of like, that exiled God's people the first, the first-

David: The first time

Seth: ... the first time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They, and that empire no longer exists by the Roman Empire.

David: Right.

Seth: But Babylon became emblematic-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the archetype of a nation against God's people.

David: A catch-all for every evil kingdom.

Seth: Yes. And so he is calling the new power the same.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's a new power designed to oppress God's people. Um, but there where we can... And so that, that means we can definitely expect suffering.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But that also means we can most certainly expect resurrection.

David: That's right.

Seth: We live in Babylon.

David: Yep.

Seth: Many churches are Babylon.

David: Mm.

Seth: And even there, God will bring resurrection.

David: That's right, because suffering for God's people is inevitable, but so is resurrection life.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's good. And you can't have one without the other.

Seth: That's right.

David: They go together. In fact, one confirms the other.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay. Is that 1 Peter?

Seth: That's the book of 1 Peter.

David: There we go.

Seth: We did it.

David: All right. That was, that was awesome. 1 Peter was a journey for me.

Seth: Really?

David: Yeah, it's been really awesome reflecting on this book, and 2 Peter especially has captivated me for a while now, so I'm excited to talk about it too.

Seth: All the Nephilim and [laughs] We get, we get more of all that coming up.

David: More of all that. If, if, if your appetite was just whetted with our over one-hour long episode on the Nephilim last week-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... just you wait.

David: Uh, but yeah, I'm excited, um, to continue to talk about, uh, Peter and his community, and then even bring Jude into the mix.

Seth: Mm.

David: It'll be a lot of fun. So, uh, yeah. Thank you guys for joining us-

Seth: Thank you

David: ... all the way through 1 Peter, and we will see you next week. [upbeat music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]