Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you this fine day?
Seth: I mean-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... it's 100 degrees outside. I would not-
David: It is so hot
Seth: ... call it fine. However, it's freezing cold in the office. [laughs]
David: This is true. [laughs]
Seth: So I'm layered up, so I've [laughs] compensated correctly.
David: You are... My favorite thing is that you are wearing one of the jean jackets-
Seth: Uh, from our, it's a prop jacket
David: ... from our videos. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's one of our prop wardrobe pieces.
Seth: Every time I forget, like, my u- my hoodie from home or anything from home-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I wear the prop jacket.
David: Yeah, which I think is the jacket that the, the priest i- in the Leviticus video who's smashing the light bulbs with a hammer.
Seth: Ah.
David: I think that's what he's-
Seth: This, this is the one
David: ... this is the one he's wearing.
Seth: I'll look for some pieces of glass. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah, so you just get stabbed all of a sudden. Anyway.
Seth: Well, anyway.
David: We are introducing the book of 2 Peter-
Seth: Yep
David: ... today.
Seth: Last week, we did 1 Peter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This week, we're doing 2 Peter, and then in the following weeks, we'll go kind of line by line or section by section-
David: Through 1 and 2 Peter
Seth: ... through 1 and 2 Peter.
David: Yeah, yeah. Um, what is it about 2 Peter that kinda has you excited, uh, that you feel like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's not a s- it's definitely not a sequel to 1 Peter-
Seth: It's-
David: ... although it was written next.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh-
Seth: As best we can tell
David: ... as best we can tell. What has you excited about 2 Peter?
Seth: What, two things have me-
David: Okay
Seth: ... excited about 2 Peter. One, 2 Peter is talking to a group of people who are really skeptical that Jesus is going to return.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they believe that the fact that evil continues to remain unabated is proof that God's not powerful or just.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Feel like that's just a live-
David: It's a live topic
Seth: ... a live thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's also talking to a people, as we were just talking about off-air, that seem steeped in the opposite direction.
David: Mm.
Seth: So you have the enemies of God, skeptical that God's coming, but you also have a people who seem to be kinda hyper involved in the spiritual realities behind the realities.
David: Right.
Seth: They like-
David: Lots of angel-
Seth: Lots of talks about-
David: ... and divine nature and-
Seth: ... angels and demons-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and divine things, and it's like, so when you have, uh, people who are really skeptical of something, of, of something that God's gonna do, and people hyper bought into maybe an extreme-
David: Mm
Seth: ... how do you talk to people in the middle of all that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's why I'm excited for that.
David: Okay. So why hasn't God come back yet? Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And isn't, isn't how bad the world is proof that he might never come back-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is like, a, a, a conversation a lot of people can get excited about. And then, like, there's just this world that you and I typically ignore.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The angelic world, the hyper, what's happening behind the scenes, heavens world-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that Peter feels very familiar with.
Seth: Very familiar with, because his people were very familiar with it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think one of the things that's always difficult in any conversation about almost anything is having a measured conversation where people are invested in the extremes.
David: Mm.
Seth: We have one people who wanna talk about all the weird stuff that happened with the Nephilim in Genesis 6.
David: Right.
Seth: And other people said, "Guys, God is not coming back." Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... those two poles and then trying to s- walk down the middle of those things without triggering either side-
David: Whoo
Seth: ... Peter tries to do for us. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Okay. So what, what's gonna, what's kinda the most helpful thing to start our conversation then?
Seth: Well, that maybe what is 2 Peter? Like, as-
David: Oh, like from a genre standpoint.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. Like, you know, what type of literature is this?
Seth: Well, it's most likely, it is a letter written to a group of Christians.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Uh, it's kind of different from 1 Peter in that it doesn't have an addressee. So 1 Peter, we are told that it's written to these five cities in Asia Minor. In 2 Peter, we have a more general opening, um, "May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ our Lord." So it's, it's a little more general.
David: Yeah, but still, like, a letter that we're used to, to reading.
Seth: Yes, and it even refers to itself as a letter in 2 Peter 3, "This is now the second letter that I'm writing to you," uh-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "beloved."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and most scholars-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... seem to think that the se- the first letter is 1 Peter, and this is the 2 Peter, which is probably why they're named 1st and 2 Peter. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Which is one of the very helpful times that, that, that-
Seth: That that actually happens
David: ... that happens chronologically. Um, so but there's also, like, this kind of, I don't wanna call it like, a sub-genre.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Uh, but it's also kind of an occasion.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? But it, Peter or the author identifies that he's about to die.
Seth: Yeah, verse 13, "I think it's right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, because I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me."
David: Mm.
Seth: So Peter knows he's about to die.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he, this is his last will and testament. This is his last word to the churches that will listen to him.
David: Yeah, which, uh, there's, w- although the, the classif- like, the, the evidence for the classification of this book a, a, as a certain kind of genre as a last will and testament is spurious.
Seth: Meaning there's actually, if you go back in the ancient world, there could've been, like, a whole genre of books. You could read the last will and testament of all these famous people.
David: That's right, and they have a specific style and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, the-
Seth: Oh, I wanna read the one
David: ... format.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And it's like, there's some of that indication here.
Seth: The last will and testament of Matthew McConaughey? Yes, please. [laughs]
David: Oh. [laughs] Hey, hey, hey. Uh, yeah, and so that's, like, not super evident here, but it kinda does follow the idea of-
Seth: Yes
David: ... these are my last words.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is an interesting way to read this book. Like, when I started coming to this letter as, like, okay-It's the last thing Peter had to say to the churches that he was, like, in charge of.
Seth: Mm-hmm. I think the same way about Jesus's last words at the Last Supper.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... there's something special about last words.
David: There really is, yeah.
Seth: And whether that's a brand-new teaching or the, normally the way I think about it, like, my summarized life wisdom-
David: Right
Seth: ... to you in your given moment.
David: Right.
Seth: That's 2 Peter.
David: It's kinda like one of those moments where it's like, uh, "So what's the last thing he said to you before he went?" You know? It's like a-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a distillation of everything the relationship meant, and that one last thing he needs to say to you before you leave.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So anyway, it's just a fun, kind of an imaginative universe to live in-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that's kinda historically accurate, too.
Seth: And presumably, then, if 1 Peter was the first letter-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and 2 Peter is the second, it makes sense that it's probably the same audience-
David: Right
Seth: ... perhaps.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, primarily Gentiles-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who live scattered throughout Asia Minor, or even maybe a broader audience that's both, but-
David: Right
Seth: ... pretty much the same audience.
David: Yep. And, and most likely, if we're making that assumption from 1 Peter, these people feel on the outside. They feel exiled.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They feel like they don't belong in their own cities. They're not able to operate in their cities the way they used to now that they belong to Jesus.
Seth: Yeah. 1 Peter focused pretty heavily on the idea of being foreigners-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the nation where you live, particularly because of the way that you live.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The way of Jesus demands certain ethical and moral behaviors, which puts you on the outside of whatever culture or city that you live in.
David: Right.
Seth: And so 2 Peter's written kind of in the same way. You have people living differently, and then, as we'll get to in a second, there are these false teachers telling them, "Hey, all that Christian living, that Jesus way of life, doesn't need to be... You don't need to be beholden to that anymore."
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: So is there anything we should talk about before we get to the false teachers about kind of the background of this letter?
Seth: So the audience is the same.
David: Yep.
Seth: However, there is some, a little bit of debate about how this letter came into being.
David: Right, because there's a really unique thing about 2 Peter in that it has a really strong relationship to the, the letter of Jude.
Seth: Yeah. I was surprised whenever we started, like, um, buying books and researching this.
David: Yes. We were like, "Okay, we'll get a lot of 1 and 2 Peter commentaries," and it's like, no, you can get, like, a 1 Peter commentary-
Seth: And then-
David: ... but then a lot of 2 Peter, Jude commentaries. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. It's because, uh, Jude and 2 Peter almost follow thought for thought each other.
David: Mm.
Seth: The ordering of the Book of Jude, the wording of the Book of Jude, all of that same language, all those same stories are all repeated in 2 Peter, even in the same order except for one, um, uh, once variation where Peter puts it in chronological order-
David: Oh
Seth: ... rather than the thematic order that Jude puts it in.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: So it's like, okay, it's the same arguments being made, the same Old Testament stories being used.
David: Even some of the same turns of phrase.
Seth: Same turns of phrase being used. They're talking about the same thing.
David: Right, and one of them probably had access to the other's letter.
Seth: And out of all the study we've done-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to try to figure out did Jude influence 2 Peter, or did 2 Peter influence Jude, I, we, I don't have a good answer.
David: Yeah, no one does.
Seth: No one does.
David: No one does. There's theories on both sides. The, the, but the thing is, mm, pretty much everything we're gonna learn about 2 Peter doesn't, isn't hinged upon-
Seth: Who-
David: ... what, what's called, like, Judine priority-
Seth: Yeah, who-
David: ... or whatever
Seth: ... yeah
David: ... you know.
Seth: Who wrote it first.
David: Yeah, who wrote... Yeah, that's the, that's the way-
Seth: Yeah [laughs]
David: ... to say it. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Who wrote it first.
Seth: Judine priority.
David: Judine priority. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Uh, which I learned Jude, I mean, well, I should have said this for the Jude podcast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But Jude is a shorthand for Judah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is the Hebrew word, but Judes is the Greek word.
David: Yeah, interesting.
Seth: So anyway.
David: Judes.
Seth: Judes.
David: We have, we have the Epistle of Judes. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, the Epistle of Judes.
David: No, don't quote me on that. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Anyway, I was like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "What?" Anyway.
David: Yeah, interesting.
Seth: Um-
David: Okay, so yes, there's relationship that you should be aware of between-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 2 Peter and Jude.
Seth: And you could go ahead and bash your head on the wall to try to figure out who influenced who.
David: Yep.
Seth: I think you-
David: But if you, if you want to, go read, how many com... We probably read nine commentaries. [laughs]
Seth: We, we-
David: Yeah, anyway
Seth: ... and blogs. Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The real question, I think, and I'm gonna ask you this question, is-
David: Ooh, yay
Seth: ... why in, we only have 66 books of the Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: We have even fewer New Testament books.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Why have we been given two books that are, feel like shot-for-shot remakes of one another?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, why, why do we need two reiterations of the same story? Um, 'cause I feel like the more interesting question to me, if I, if I believe God is stitching together scripture for the benefit of His people throughout history, why do I have the same story twice?
David: Okay, so you're asking... 'Cause there's two ways to interpret that question.
Seth: Okay.
David: One is from a, a historical perspective, right?
Seth: Okay, yes.
David: Uh, the other is from a, the divine canonizer.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: You know, God put the books in the Bible that He wanted in the Bible. Why did He choose two books that are so similar? Is that the question you're asking?
Seth: I, I mean, yes. I'm kinda asking both questions.
David: Okay.
Seth: But-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I think the second one is-
David: More interesting
Seth: ... the one, the one that's more interesting.
David: Yeah. I mean, the historicity question, it just goes down to how the books were canonized, right, which is like, uh, w- you know, did they have the right authority, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Did they bear the mark of the Spirit? Did they have wide church use?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Did they agree with the rest of scripture? You know, these are the-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... tests for canonization.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And apparently, both Jude and 2 Peter met those tests.
Seth: Okay.
David: So from a historical perspective, they're both inspired, uh, authoritative books of the Bible that deserved canonization from the church's historical perspective.
Seth: My other thought there was on a his- history level, the same story probably needs to be told to different types of people.
David: Yes.
Seth: So it's like I think 2 Peter's primarily written to a Gentile audience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think Jude's primarily written to a Jewish audience.
David: Right.
Seth: So the same stories and the same information, even the same language, still needs to be contextualized for different people in different places.
David: Yeah, facing different situations.
Seth: Right, so-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that feels, that feels interesting to me as well.
David: Yeah, but, but to go to the divine canonizer, you know, why did God put both these books in the, in the New Testament, is really interesting. The, and, like, I think, one, is clearly the consistent themes of, like, divine judgment, right?
Seth: Yeah, a lot of judgment.
David: A lot of judgment in these books, uh, is something that God definitely wants us to think about.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, especially when it comes to, uh, handling false teachers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... 'cause both of, both, you know, both of these books-Are addressing
Seth: Dealing
David: False teachers
Seth: False teachers.
David: Yeah. Um, and then I think there's also something about the, the, the way that theme is communicated is also very idiosyncratic, unique-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to 2 Peter and Jude, right? To, to use, like, we're g- we'll talk about this probably more in the Jude podcast, but to use extra-biblical, you know, um-
Seth: Uh
David: ... resources, books, like, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, like, first and second Enoch, you know, um-
Seth: Yeah. The Ascension of Moses or the Testament of-
David: Yeah, the, yeah, the Ascent of Moses-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or the Testimony of Moses, depending on how you translate it. Uh, yeah, it's really interesting. Um, and it's like, okay. But then also, like, the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot and, uh, the Nephilim, and it's like, okay. It's also a bunch of stories I think as Western evangelicals we just tend to skip.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or we don't think really have... They don't influence the way I am a Christian today.
Seth: And I think, I mean, look, take it out of evangelicalism, I think n- nobody's-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... really meditating on the fire falling on Sodom and Gomorrah-
David: Right
Seth: ... except maybe some hyper-fundamentalists.
David: Yeah. Right. Yeah
Seth: Nobody's talking about the sons of God mating with the daughters of men and-
David: And like, yeah
Seth: ... making theological points about it
David: And what that has to do with false teachers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like, so I think there's something about the Bible's storyline, especially with its focus on, um, how the divine and the mater- and, and, and the mortal intertwine and are-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... caught up in the same s- drama together-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... how that influences how we think about certain things, especially apparently divine judgment. So I don't know.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Maybe because we need to get whacked upside the head twice in order to get it, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: I don't know, maybe that's why God put them in both. I think the two contexts is really interesting. Um, yeah, it's all speculation.
Seth: It's all speculation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I was, I was curious. And I mean-
David: It's, it's good to flag
Seth: ... at the very least, it's like we have a God who wants to communicate to His people in the place that they're at.
David: Yep.
Seth: So if you're Jew or Gentile, you n- you need the same message of deliverance and judgment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And God's given us authors who are trying to faithfully do that for us.
David: Yeah. It's also, from a, a Bible meditation standpoint, it's also interesting just to think about repetition i- when it comes to how the Bible communicates, doesn't have to be superfluous.
Seth: Oh, right.
David: That like, because the Bible says something more than one time doesn't have to be like, yeah, I already know this.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It can be like, hold on, I'm putting this here for a purpose-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that you will hit it again, meditate on it, and so it sticks and changes you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just another interesting, like meditative-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... way to think about this.
Seth: Yeah. The, the good news of the God who canonizes-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: ... is that He has something to teach us, and He's willing to do it more than once-
David: Right
Seth: ... to make sure we get the point.
David: When God repeats himself, it's, it's not an accident.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Okay. Um, do we wanna talk about the false teachers now?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah?
Seth: Let's talk about the false teachers.
David: Okay.
Seth: So false teachers.
David: False teachers.
Seth: We spent a ton of time talking about false teachers in first, second, and third John.
David: We did, yeah, as another, another time when an epistle is written because of the occasion of interloping teachers in a-
Seth: Good ol... I love a good interloper
David: ... a, a good interloper, in a local church community that a prominent apostle is over. Like the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at least the occasion, now not the content, right? But the-
Seth: Right
David: ... occasion-
Seth: Is similar
David: ... is very similar, a prominent apostle, uh, shepherding a church in which interloping false teachers have become-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... prominent and messed up their community.
Seth: And interloping in this sense means people potentially brought up within that community-
David: Right
Seth: ... now teaching against what the apostles taught.
David: Yeah, not itinerant-
Seth: Yes
David: ... where they just were passing through and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... left a trail of destruction in their wake. These were, these people came up within.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, really interesting. And so as best you, as best we can-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, what are some of the defining factors of these, these teachers that were, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... raising up? What were they talking about? What made, what made, what occasioned this letter?
Seth: I mean, the first thing is the skepticism of a coming final judgment.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's, that's really a big deal, the skepticism of a coming final judgment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And like, they make some pretty decent arguments, right? [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah.
Seth: Like, it's, they're not wrong to bring up these things, so.
David: It's kind of interesting, you're opening 2 Peter, uh, as you do-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and find everything you wanna say. It's interesting to just think about, which is something as a younger Bible reader I just never knew was there, that 2 Peter is going to quote some of the arguments of these teachers in his book and then deconstruct them.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it just, I just love that. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] The Bible's not afraid of its, of its, uh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of its detractors.
David: Or I think the way to, uh, I think the other way to think about it is, like, I think I thought every word in the Bible was from the mouth of God.
Seth: Ah.
David: And to put a quote from a false teacher in the Bible is just strange.
Seth: You, you can't do that.
David: You can't do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's wrong.
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, yeah, it's wrong, but he's gonna tell you why it's wrong.
Seth: Right.
David: Anyway, it's just, like, a fun little, like-
Seth: It's a fun little thing
David: ... there's cool things in our Bibles.
Seth: Yeah, it, like, undoes some of my, like, hyper-fundamentalist-
David: Yes
Seth: ... childhood, like, tendencies. Like, oh wait, you could actually engage with a serious topic and it's, that's fine too. [laughs]
David: Yeah. Okay, so-
Seth: So skepticism about the coming judgment, and-
David: You were talking about some of the arguments they had.
Seth: Yeah, so this is 2 Peter 3:4. They will say, the false teachers will say-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So here's what he's saying is that, okay, you, we were told that God was coming soon.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: All the apostles said God was coming soon. Jesus said God was coming soon. And all those apostles and Jesus are all dead.
David: Yeah, and like, a- and Peter-
Seth: And then Peter
David: ... the rock of the church is-
Seth: Is
David: ... on his deathbed. Hi- his sun is setting.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The apostolic age is coming to an end. Where's Jesus? I don't think it's gonna happen.
Seth: Yep.
David: Everything's just going on the way it always has.
Seth: Yeah, so it's like, it's, doesn't that seem like a good argument against your vision of divine judgment?
David: Right. I think that argument gains strength the longer history tarries, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: 2,000 years later, that argument's 2,000 years stronger
David: ... exactly right.
Seth: Yes.
David: Exactly right. And I've heard that argument where it's just like, okay, if He was gonna come, He would've come by now.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, and I love how Peter answers that.
Seth: Yes.
David: But-
Seth: And what I think is embedded in there, too, is a sense of, um-Not just like God is not living up to his end of the bargain that the apostles told us to expect-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... God's gonna come soon there's also the sense that God's not being the just God you expect him to be.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, this world is continuing in all its darkness and in all of its actions that you call immoral-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and no one's paying the price for it.
David: Right.
Seth: You said to expect judgment when people act the way we're acting, but nothing's happening.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: That must mean the way that we're acting is fine.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It must mean that the ethical commands you've been brought to expect actually don't hold any weight anymore, and you're just teaching things that you don't need to listen to.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah, II Peter 2:18, this is how Peter describes them. They are speaking loud boasts of folly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, they're speaking about things they don't know about, and they're claiming to be wise, but they're really fools, and they enticed by sensual passions of the flesh.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he describes them elsewhere as greedy and sensual and licentious, um, and after power. Like-
David: So these people aren't just, like, going around being like, "Hey, guys, Jesus is never gonna come back." It's not just an empty venomless doctrine.
Seth: No.
David: It... They are peddling a licentious sex-heavy lifestyle.
Seth: Well, yeah. It's like you, you believers in Jesus are unnecessarily-
David: Holy
Seth: ... holy. You're, you're repressing your true desires.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: You are living in a way that's damaging to you. There's so much freedom.
David: Right.
Seth: And he even calls it like they entice you with a type of freedom-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... becau- um, because Jesus isn't coming back. That's the argument.
David: Right.
Seth: You can have sex with whoever you want with. You can accrue as much money as you want. You can live how you want because it's clear God's not coming back.
David: Yeah, I mean, and look at it from their, um, their scheme of argument, right? So they're using a cause and effect-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like argument.
Seth: Okay.
David: Right? They're saying, "I'm having all the sex and licentious behavior I wanna have, no punishment."
Seth: Right.
David: "And in fact, look, I'm actually, like, kinda crushing it. I, I'm happy. I'm doing my thing in this life. It's awesome. Look at you. You're abstaining from all that stuff. You're miserable. You're being oppressed because you look weird, and you're, you're, you don't fit in here."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "And Jesus is never gonna come back to reward you for it, so-"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "... you should at least get what you can now."
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, they're using this cause and effect argument that's really powerful and persuasive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, I mean, it's... What Peter says is that, "They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Because whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved."
David: Right.
Seth: And so Peter's gonna make the argument that actually being ruled by sexual desire or sexual freedom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is actually a form of slavery.
David: Yeah.
Seth: These false teachers are claiming the Christians are slave to their old school morals-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but they're actually being, as Paul will say, also slaves to the Christ who liberates them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But they don't realize how trapped they are because they can't see it.
David: Right. Um, so there's two things I wanna do while we're on the topic of false teachers. I wanna, like, back up a little bit.
Seth: Okay.
David: I wanna back up just toward, like, a, a wider context of-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what's going on in the early church, and then I wa- like, and then I wanna w- back up and just talk about, like, why are the, the... why is this church community expecting God's judgment? You know, like, from-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the broad story of the Bible, is that the expectation that the Bible's been building?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And why should they be expecting it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, anyway, but, like, to back up just a little bit of like, man, that escalated quickly. You guys waited, like, 40 years, and you're like, "Oh, guess he's not coming back," it's like, man, they really gave up quick. Well, there was this, uh, there was this sense of imminence of Jesus' return.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, like, they thought he was gonna come back days later. Okay, maybe not da- a year later. Okay, maybe not... Maybe at least in 20 years. You know, like, okay, maybe before, maybe, okay, the temple's been destroyed now in 60-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... A- or s- 60-
Seth: 70
David: ... 70 AD, uh, maybe now. You know, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... no. Is he gonna tarry forever? You know, it's like... And so there was this heightened expectation that Jesus was going to return before the first Christians died and the first apostles died.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, that was the, that was a huge expectation in the early church.
Seth: Yeah. And, like...
David: Yeah. And so as it starts not happening, and as a f- I wanna say, too, it's a false expectation.
Seth: Yeah, Jesus never said he'd be back five years later.
David: No.
Seth: He just said soon. He said soon.
David: And they had to re- and you... I mean, sympathize with them for a little bit.
Seth: I mean, I'd definitely sympathize with them.
David: Exa- I would be like, "Okay."
Seth: Soon.
David: "So I'm gonna keep my backpack."
Seth: I just saw a whole bunch of miracles, somebody raised from the dead. There's-
David: Let's go
Seth: ... like, I mean, it's kinda-
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... I mean, I'm speaking in tongues now.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, what's ha- Like, it's happening. [laughs]
David: [laughs] And so, I mean, I totally get that, and to be a part of that generation that grew up going like, "It's tomorrow. It's tomorrow. It's next month. It's next year. Is it next decade? When is it gonna happen?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then these other teachers come around, and they make a really good case for maybe it never will.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I'm gonna, like, at least be a little crushed if not convinced.
Seth: And think about the social pol- and political cost living like a Christian had in that society.
David: And it's getting more and more expensive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In I Peter, the whole thing is about living as exiles and foreigners and being persecuted for it. You are upholding a way of life. You're living according to morality that's cutting across the grain of Roman culture, and you're being continually ostracized for it.
David: Mm.
Seth: It makes total sense for a false teacher to come up and say, "Guys, we've been hamstrung by this Jesus guy for a little too long."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, w- we are being crushed for no reason. We have ethical commands that don't make sense, and Jesus said he was gonna coming soon, and is 40 years really soon? Is 50 years really soon?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is 60 years really soon? Like, that's a... Wouldn't you rather blend into the culture a little bit more and enjoy your life?
David: Yeah. It's interesting, too, to think about, like, demons aren't made overnight. You know? Like, you can-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you can see this person growing up in this church-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... hearing these messages and just being like, "When's it gonna come?" Like, you know, he just-
Seth: Right
David: ... becomes frustrated.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then he's like, as he's growing up-He's like not only becoming more and more disenchanted by the, by the Jesus' coming that just continues to be pushed out, he's also now having to pay a high cost for that disenchantment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's just like the more I live like a Christian, the more ostracized I am among my friends-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the marketplace, just like in everyday life. And just like, it just doesn't seem worth it. So I'm, what I, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start thinking a little differently.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, and be like, "Okay, there has to be a better explanation than this."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I, I mean, it's an interesting origin story for these false teachers.
Seth: It is. Yeah.
David: So that's, that's, that's, that's kinda what's going on.
Seth: That's what's going on.
David: That's the expectations that people had, and why the, this kind of false teaching was able to get, gain a foothold.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, so.
Seth: I mean, and it's still kinda convincing today.
David: Yes.
Seth: I mean, like, like that, that power-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... hasn't gone away.
David: Yeah. I think it, like, like we said, the, the, the argument has gotten 2,000 years stronger, but in a sense it's also weakened a little bit from another point of view-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is like we don't necessarily have the expectation that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's def- he's coming tomorrow, he has to.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? Like, we don't have that expectation. Um, although, I don't know, maybe we should, but-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... anyway.
Seth: People, it's harder for people to buy into something happening soon because it hasn't happened in so long.
David: Exactly.
Seth: It's a barrier to even accepting the faith, rather than a reason to get out of it.
David: That's a good way to put it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's a good way to put it, yep, which is why it's so strong.
Seth: Which is why it's so strong.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, the other thing I wanted to back up to is just like, okay, um, they're expecting the second coming. They're expecting that second coming to come with judgment against evil. Why?
Seth: Ah.
David: Like, why?
Seth: Why are, why are Peter's audience, why are these Christians expecting judgment?
David: Yeah. Yeah. Why?
Seth: Well, I mean, really basically-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the Old Testament, the Jewish tradition holds that there will be a final day of judgment against God's enemies.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus himself taught that there would be a coming day of judgment when he would come to judge the earth, and the apostles taught it as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So like you just have a tradition on tradition, the Jewish tradition, the Jesus tradition, the apostles all-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... saying the same thing.
David: Yeah. I almost wanna start with Jesus real quick-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I just thought of something. Um, we talked, uh, in the intro about how there's like all these divine powers and angels and everything.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: When Jesus talks about the day of judgment, he almost always includes angels.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he says, "The angels will come, and they will gather up the wheat and the chaff."
Seth: That's right.
David: You know? And like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... I was like, oh, there's-
Seth: There's, there's angels there
David: ... there's angels there-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... in the judgment texts. That's interesting, and he's gonna talk about fallen angels here. Anyway, I just wanna flag that. Je- so Jesus promises it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that a day of judgment will come. So why are they expecting judgment? 'Cause Jesus said it would come-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and that the angels would come and separate the wheat from the chaff, and there would be a final day of judgment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the apostles built on that.
Seth: Mm.
David: And so they're expecting it because their contemporaries told them it was gonna happen.
Seth: Yeah. And all throughout the Old Testament scripture-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you have stories of judgment that aren't just stories of judgment, as in like isolated incidents-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but they become like paradigmatic or like, um, archetypes of-
David: Yes
Seth: ... judgment.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so Peter mentions three of them in 2 Peter.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He says, "God did not spare angels when they sinned-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness." There's a whole bunch going on there-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but, it, the, the simplest version is it just goes back to Genesis 6-
David: Genesis 6
Seth: ... where you have the sons of men being punished for their apparently having sex with the daughters of m- me- women.
David: Or the sons of God-
Seth: Sons of God
David: ... having sex with the, the daughters of men.
Seth: Yes. So whatever that means-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and we'll get to that later.
David: [laughs] We won't, no
Seth: ... that was a, a spiritual battle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's-
David: And there was a punishment tied to the fallen angels who did that.
Seth: Yep. And then the very next story in Genesis 6 is the story of Noah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the flood, which is the very next story Peter picks up on.
David: Right. He's like, yeah, he's like, "You don't think there's gonna be a coming day of judgment? You're talking about the God who did the flood."
Seth: Yeah. He cast down the angels. He did the flood.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then he did Sodom and Gomorrah.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: These are all stories that are paradigmatic of the type of God that brings-
David: Mm
Seth: ... justice to the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you have evil spiritual beings mutilating or abusing women.
David: Mm-hmm. Punishment.
Seth: Ju- punishment. You have an evil world-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that God brings justice to.
David: Yep.
Seth: You have an evil city that God brings justice to.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, that is the God of the Old Testament, and even Jesus will use the st- story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the same way. It's like-
David: Right
Seth: ... it would be better for Tyre... It'll be better than, for Sodom and Gomorrah than Tyre and Sidon-
David: Right
Seth: ... because they refused the miracles that I showed them.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, these are, these are-
David: So what-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what, what I'm hearing that's really interesting is we have ... Why, why were people expecting it? Why were people expecting a day of judgment in, in 2 Peter's community? That's my, that's my question.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And there's two answers we've, we've given. One, that day has been promised, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: That day has been talked about and promised.
Seth: The future day coming-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that's going to happen, everyone's talked about.
David: And secondly, not less importantly, but secondly, um, that's who God is. He's a God who always judges evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's just part of his character. It's inevitable that it will happen because that's who God is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So you can't have a universe in which God exists, you know, this God exists-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the true God exists.
Seth: The good God.
David: The good God of Israel-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, and not have judgment against evil.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, which is a strong argument.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That, yeah, that, and that's, that's his argument.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And tied with that is these, if there's a certainty... Okay, I think I'll, I'm gonna back up.
David: Okay, back up. Back it up.
Seth: Why must God judge?
David: Oh, boy, you backed it way up.
Seth: I, I, yeah, well, I, I-
David: You went like the Odyssey on me
Seth: ... went like, but I think this is important because we said, like, it's part of God's character to judge evil. Like-
David: Okay, yep. Back up
Seth: ... why is it part of God's character to judge evil? And I think the simplest thing to say is because he is good.
David: Right.
Seth: He is holy. Like, that is an intrinsic characteristic to him. He is good and holy, and evil cannot live near him. Like, it co- it can, it cannot coexist-
David: Right
Seth: ... it within the character of God.
David: Right.
Seth: So when God's presence comes to a place-Of evil, it must be cast out. It must be destroyed. It must be put away.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Darkness-
David: Judged
Seth: ... is always overcome by light.
David: Right.
Seth: It must be judged.
David: Right.
Seth: That's, that's why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it has to happen.
David: Yeah, and I think, like, um, one of the most helpful things for me, 'cause I... I mean, all my cards are on the table for our audience here. 15 years ago-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... I almost deconverted. You know, I, I was in a deconstruction process because of this very issue-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the, it's called the theodicy of, of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of God, the justice of God. Is God good to punish evil?
Seth: Evil, yeah.
David: And, um, e- and I, and I, I all the sudden realized, like... So we live in Oklahoma, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And as I was processing this, I, I thought about the Oklahoma City bombing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, um, I mean, hundreds died.
Seth: Mm.
David: I mean, I, I felt the rattle from the bomb, uh-
Seth: That's-
David: ... 20 miles away in my elementary school
Seth: ... that's crazy.
David: I mean, it was nuts. Uh, I mean, that day is stuck in my brain forever.
Seth: Oh, I didn't know that.
David: And I mean, everybody knew somebody who died. You know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it was a huge event here. The big, the biggest attack on, um, it's a terrorist attack on American soil until 9/11.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know. And so, uh, everyone was watching the, um, the trial of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols-
Seth: Mm
David: ... or Terry Nichols. I can't remember. Anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, whenever they were tried. They, they couldn't even try them in Oklahoma because-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, the, they would be ripped-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... limb from limb-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if they showed if-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... themselves out in the street. So I think they held the trial in Colorado, if memory serves. They hold the trial. Timothy McVeigh takes the stand, and he is explaining with a smile, like, a smirk on his face, that he did everything. He, he admits to everything, and he did it to stick it to the man, like it was a political stunt.
Seth: Okay.
David: And he, and he is not sorry and owns up to everything. I mean, child- there was a playground in this place, like a daycare center. Dozens of innocent children died in, in this bombing. I mean, it's horrific, and he doesn't care.
Seth: Mm.
David: And he admits to doing everything. If that judge said, "You know what, man? I know exactly what you've done. It was wrong. It was wicked. It was evil, but I forgive you."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You're, you're free to go." Would we think that judge was loving and kind and compassionate? No, we would think-
Seth: No
David: ... he was mentally insane.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, we would call him corrupt and wicked.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And we don't hold that same standard for God [laughs]-
Seth: Right
David: ... that, that a good judge calls evil what it is and holds it accountable.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that's why, like, when we say God is good, that's why God must judge wickedness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Just because he's good.
Seth: Yes.
David: Goodness is opposed to wickedness. You can't be a neutrally good person, right? Like, you can't be like, "I'm a good person," you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then evil confronts you, and you do nothing about it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You're, oh, it's the-
Seth: Right
David: ... sin of omission.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God never commits the sin of omission.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So anyway.
Seth: No, no, it's good. And I think what makes that challenging, it's like, oh yeah, the Oklahoma City bomber, he deserves it. I just never deserve it.
David: Right.
Seth: You know, it's like, I think that's why it gets so challenging-
David: Totally
Seth: ... is because, man, the way that God talks about the way that people are supposed to live always indicts me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it just doesn't feel fair. But, like, I th- it's like, if you have a good God, he has to judge in, in the favor of goodness and against evil.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um...
David: So that's why I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... at least without getting into a full-fledged theodicy model-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... um, why, what, what, that's why we mean, um, it's in the character of God to judge.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Is what we were getting at there.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that's why people were expecting that evil's gonna be held accountable.
Seth: Right.
David: Why? 'Cause there's a good God in the heavens.
Seth: Right. Well, and I think it's important that we f- emphasize a good God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because I think a lot of this conversation gets lost be- when we try to, to justify a wrathful God-
David: Right
Seth: ... as descriptive of God's character.
David: Right.
Seth: God's inherently wrathful.
David: Right.
Seth: No, God is inherently good.
David: Good.
Seth: And good and evil, like, he mu- in order to be good, evil must end.
David: A good person-
Seth: With-
David: ... experiences wrath against evil.
Seth: Yes.
David: If you're not angry, wrathful against a, the Oklahoma City bombing, I would question your goodness.
Seth: Right. That's exactly right.
David: You [laughs] if you're sympathetic towards that or, or ambivalent toward it, you're not a very good person.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so, like, that's why.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's not inherently wrathful, but he shows wrath against evil because he's good.
Seth: It's his reaction against evil.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: Okay. Anyway.
Seth: Why did we get there? I forgot. [laughs]
David: We got there, we got there because I asked the question, um, why were, why was the church that 2 Peter is addressing, why were they expecting a eschatological-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... second coming-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, judgment against wickedness?
Seth: Right.
David: Well, it's because it's who God is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And because he promised it was gonna happen.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then these interloping false teachers come in-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and say, "But look at the data."
Seth: Right.
David: "Look at, look what's happening."
Seth: Mm.
David: "I don't see him coming anytime soon."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "So live however you want." So what, help me understand then, the, if, if that's, if that's what they were, their, that was their primary f-
Seth: Mm
David: ... mode of false teaching, was, like, uh, eschatological skepticism-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... meaning the end times are not coming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, what, what else, like, characterized their, their teaching? Uh, we've talked about licentiousness and-
Seth: Yeah, free-
David: ... free living.
Seth: Yeah, free living, g- I mean, that, I mean, that's it. It's like they were-
David: Okay, okay
Seth: ... skeptical of the final day of the Lord, and they were using that as a way to promote a different ethic than the way of Jesus.
David: Do we know, is there any internal evidence in 2 Peter that we know that they were licentious, free-loving, sex-crazy people who invented no, no second coming to get away with it, or did-
Seth: Or
David: ... or, or were they like, "Well, since Jesus isn't coming, let's go party"? [laughs] Like-
Seth: I mean-
David: [laughs] I'm just saying.
Seth: It could go either way, honestly.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: Or it could be a group of disgruntled people within the church-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... who are tired of a moral code that seems overly restricted and just, and, um-
David: Ostracizing, right? Yeah
Seth: ... ostracizing. Like, it, like, it just breeds persecution, and there seems to be no life on the other side. Like-
David: RightYeah, one way we were, we were kind of jokingly talking about this was, like, um... And I don't wanna draw too many parallels here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But kind of a funny way to think about it is, like the sec- Like, from the, from the false teacher's perspective, the, the 2 Peter church are a bunch of fundamentalists who won't-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dance and won't go see movies.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Guys, like, come on. The-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he's not coming back. Let's just go-
Seth: You told me he spit fire and brimstone. None of it happened.
David: None of it happened. I went and saw a rated R movie.
Seth: And nothing happened. [laughs]
David: And nothing happened.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, who wants to go see the new Fast and Furious 9 with me?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Let's go.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, it's, like, kind of a funny way to think about it. It's far more serious than that.
Seth: Right. Well, and that's kind of, like why the-
David: And the, and the 2 Peter church wasn't being fundamentalists. Anyway.
Seth: Yeah. It's... Yeah, it's just interest... And what's, what is so challenging about 2 Peter then is let's just take that little characture- caricature as more true than not.
David: Okay.
Seth: So why are we talking about Sodom and Gomorrah again? Like, if we have, like... We, we can diminish that, and, like, I think the false teachers are diminishing it, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're diminishing the second coming. They're diminishing the ethical command as not that serious. It's the old guard versus the new guard. Peter comes in and says, "Okay, let me just take the veil off of what you're really saying for a second. We're actually talking about Sodom and Gomorrah still."
David: Mm.
Seth: "We're actually talking about judging angels."
David: Mm.
Seth: "We're actually talking about the flood. We're talking about a fire that will consume the world one day."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "We're not, we're not talking about your theories about the end of time and how we should live now. We're talking about something that's, like, embedded in history, embedded in our God's character, and has drastic consequences."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Let's not take it so lightly."
David: Mm.
Seth: Which I thi- I think that's part of the point.
David: That's a really strong point, actually. That, um, when it, when it comes down to it, you can just, you can, you can come at it logically, you know, like you just did.
Seth: Mm.
David: That the false teacher's point is completely hypothetical. They don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, while they're saying he's never gonna come ba- He could come back.
Seth: Right.
David: You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's just like they don't know what's gonna happen the next second. Um, and so it's all speculation. It's all hypothetical. F- You reverse that, Peter's argument is 100% true. Like, it's, it's happened.
Seth: Mm.
David: It's occurred.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's historical. It's verifiable. It's, you know, it's been written down.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the, this is how God has acted, and so we can use that to predict future actions.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That the wicked will be held accountable.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You are literally trusting absolute fantasy and speculation.
Seth: Right.
David: Let's not forget that-
Seth: And-
David: ... this is part of our history
Seth: ... and even if, let's give these people the benefit of the doubt, and somehow they're still holding onto Jesus in some sense of the word.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: Although, Peter does say they are, like, even denying the one who bought us.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, whatever that means, but they... For Christians, we don't just have the story of the Nephilim-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and Noah and the promises of, of future fire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which, by the way, 2 Peter's the only book in the New Testament to mention fire at the last day.
David: Oh, really?
Seth: Yeah, he's... Only New Testament. There's several in the Old Testament-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but he's the only New Testament author to pick up on that.
David: Oh.
Seth: Um, I think because he goes all in on the flood, so he needs the... And God promised never to flood the earth again.
David: Oh.
Seth: So he's going for a different metaphor for judgment.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Anyway. Um...
David: We don't just have those stories, you were saying.
Seth: Right. We have the cross.
David: Right.
Seth: We actually have a story of judgment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that Jesus, that God himself willingly undergoes that proves the seriousness of our f- failure to follow his ethical commands.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, man, like, if God is not willing to spare himself the judgment of sin-
David: Yes
Seth: ... how, how can you claim there will be no future day of sin? Especially if you're holding out that Jesus was some, actually somebody to follow.
David: Yeah. Yeah. It's not just something God, God did, God did to them in the past or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... people of a certain city or dispensation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's something God holds to himself.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That he takes holding sin, uh, accountable so seriously that he's willing to fall under sin's accountability himself on the cross.
Seth: Yes. And to deny a future day of judgment is actually to deny the past day of judgment-
David: There you go
Seth: ... on the cross.
David: Yep. Yep.
Seth: Um...
David: Okay. That's really strong.
Seth: So 2 Peter goes all in on the certainty of judgment.
David: Yeah. So-
Seth: That's happening.
David: Yeah, so why is that good news is the question, right?
Seth: Because Peter also goes in on the certainty of deliverance.
David: Mm.
Seth: We will not necessarily experience that.
David: Mm.
Seth: In his l- In 2 Peter 2, he makes sure to mention all these characters like Noah, who actually-
David: Right
Seth: ... didn't die in the flood.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or like Lot, who was righteous, and he was looking at the world around him, exhausted by the evil he saw, and was spared.
David: Mm.
Seth: As certain as those moments of divine judgment were, there's certainly divine deliverance available, too.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: God doesn't leave his people without a way of escape. And even as we just talked about the cross of Jesus Christ as being a place of definite judgment-
David: It was also a place of deliverance
Seth: ... of, of a certain deliverance.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: All who put their faith in Jesus are delivered from that judgment because it's been paid for.
David: Right. The cross is not the whole gospel. The empty tomb is the other side of the coin. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Right? That, like, as, as certain as judgment is because Jesus died on the cross, so certain is our deliverance because he rose from the dead.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's a historical event we can look back to. How do I know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that I'll be delivered on the last day? How do I know that Jesus will return, not to judge me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but to bring me to himself-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and to raise me up?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Well, you can use the same logic Peter used, right? Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, the Nephilim.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, that's, that's, that's like the cross. Like, that is assurance in the past about judgment. But the empty tomb and Noah and Lot-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like, those are assurances that God also rescues, and you can look to them and know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that no matter what judgment comes against this world, if you have put your trust in Jesus, like, you will assuredly be delivered.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's good news.
Seth: That's good news. And with that, so let's land the plane here.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So it's like, it's not just about, it's, as we keep saying, this future deliverance. But the ethical l-Life s- the lifestyle of the false teachers is compared in 2 Peter with the lifestyle of those who follow Jesus. It opens with that. It's like-
David: Right, yes
Seth: ... Peter says-
David: A list of virtues
Seth: ... a list of virtues, like, uh, supplement your faith with virtue, with virtue, knowledge, knowledge, self-control, self-control, steadfastness, steadfastness with godliness, godliness with brotherly affection, brotherly affection with love. Because if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they not only keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful for our Lord Jesus Christ, uh, but they'll prevent us from being blind. Therefore, be more diligent to confirm your calling and election. So one of the things he's doing here is, like, these false teachers are saying, "Live however you want, the last day is not coming." Peter comes and says, "No, live this way and know the last day is coming."
David: Yes. And the more you live this way, the more you're confirming to yourself that that last day is coming, that you'll be a part of the delivered ones.
Seth: Of the delivered ones.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's good. Um, yeah. I also wanna ask another question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Are you done landing that one?
Seth: I'm land- I've landed.
David: So, but why is God judging the wicked good news in itself? Not, not that we will be delivered from that judgment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which is good news.
Seth: It is good news.
David: But why is the fact that Je- that Jesus will return to judge wickedness in itself good news? Y- you know, especially when it comes to 2 Peter.
Seth: Right. Well, if... It's, I wonder how the false teachings of these, these false teachers were, like, perceived.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, was it a threat to them? Did they feel scared by it? Did they feel, like, enticed by it?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the judgment of the false teachers would, like, solve that problem.
David: Right, yep.
Seth: If, like, s- Peter's community was just overwhelmed with sadness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and sorrow and despair-
David: Right
Seth: ... the news that evil will be punished reverses their despair.
David: Right.
Seth: It reverses however they felt in the wake of those false teachings.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But on a, like, a more meta note, like, the judgment of evil is good news because there'll be no more bombers in heaven.
David: Right.
Seth: There will be no more rapists in heaven.
David: Right.
Seth: No more abusers in heaven.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, justice will be done, finally.
David: Yeah. And it won't be heaven unless that takes place. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Heaven isn't really heaven if there's bombers in it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, right. [laughs] Yeah.
David: Yeah. Um, totally, I completely agree with that. I think, I, I'm, I'm also thinking about the opening of 2 Peter where, uh, he talks about the fact that we can be partakers of the divine nature through Jesus.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, uh, we'll talk about that more when we go through it. But there's a second part to that sentence which is, having escaped the world and, uh, like the s- like the sinful corruption of the world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and I'm like, "That is... There, there's, there's punishment in that." There, like, there's deliverance in that. We've escaped the sinful corruption of this world.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But how? Because that sinful world has been judged. Like, Jesus judged sin on the cross. He defeated sin on the cross.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The sinful corruption, he squelched on the cross-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and bound its power, uh, so that we can be delivered from it to live virtuous lives, you know, [laughs] that have brotherly affection and love and that list of virtues you read.
Seth: Right, because a world overrun by evil has no place-
David: For those-
Seth: ... for those virtues to thrive.
David: Exactly right.
Seth: Right.
David: And so in a, in a already not yet-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we, we, like, the, in the not yet way, sin will be judged-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, in the future. But it's also good news that sin has been judged.
Seth: Right.
David: That, that Jesus has judged sin on the cross and offered us a way to be freed from its prevailing power over us.
Seth: Right. Because, uh, and he says it multiple times, like, the passions that these other people are drawn towards don't be that way. D- it's like, one part of the good news too is that because s- evil has been judged in our own hearts through faith in Jesus, we now have the ability to live virtuous lives that are more and more confirmed about the goodness of g- God's second coming. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and that he will come finally to judge those things. Like-
David: Yes. Not, the good news is not only that we will be delivered, but that we have been delivered.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Not only that the sin will be judged, but it has been judged.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and that's, that's really good news. Um, so yeah, I think that, that's all really helpful. Um-
Seth: What I like about this is, like, I think what I normally think about, um, Jesus dying on the cross for us, there's always, like, this fairly forensic element that I think we have, like, often talked about. Like, well, what about the kingdom? What about being a new humanity? And like, how do those things work out? One thing I haven't really reflected on is how the erasure of evil-
David: The what?
Seth: The erasure of evil, like the ending of evil-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... the judgment of evil.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, in like this eschatological end time sense-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... goes backward and informs what the cross is doing.
David: Yes.
Seth: Do you know what I m-
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Do you know what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like I haven't thought about in a while why it's good news that we have sin being judged in Jesus, because that marks an ending of evil-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which prevents me from being good in the world. [laughs]
David: Yes, yes.
Seth: You know, it's like, like I haven't thought about that dynamic before. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... not the, just the substitution of God on my behalf-
David: Right
Seth: ... but, like, that, that erasure of evil in my heart that allows me to be virtuous, that allows me to expect in hope Jesus' final coming and my deliverance in that final coming and not be included in the evil that I would've been otherwise.
David: Right. I think for everyone to really understand what you're getting at and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, and be touched by it, we kinda have to explain the fact that this goes against, um, a worldview that we all probably inhabit.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: Which is, let's look at this list of, of virtues that 2 Peter-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, has here, uh, to live, like, a virtuous life with knowledge and self-control and godliness-
Seth: Loyalty and love
David: ... and brotherly affection. These are things I could choose to do. I could choose to be this kinda person-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... on my own. That's the worldview we have, that in any given moment, I have the moral, uh, capacity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to do something truly morally good, truly morally evil, or even possibly truly morally neutral.Right? I have that, we, we believe we have that capacity, you know? You know, it's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's, it's called libert- l- like, uh-
Seth: Yeah. Well, I mean-
David: ... libertarian free will is what it's called.
Seth: Well, Paul, uh, Peter just says it. He's like, "We're s-," but the reality is we're slaves to corruption. We think we have freedom-
David: Yes, that's it
Seth: ... but we're slaves to corruption.
David: Yes.
Seth: We think we're capable of these things, but we're slaves to our passions.
David: Without the cross, what you have is you don't have this ability to do good or neutral or maybe sometimes choose evil.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Without the cross, we are all slaves to the corrupting power of sin.
Seth: Mm.
David: There's this p- sin is not just something you do.
Seth: Right.
David: It's a power that exists in the world, right?
Seth: Right, which is another reason why there's all these spiritual powers in this letter.
David: Exactly right. A- and, and, and so, um, before the cross [laughs] there was on- we only had the ability to do wrong without the impartation of, like, like, the work of the Spirit or, um, the, like, instruction of the law. All of these things were trying to help us navigate a world that was full of corruption.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's not until Jesus defeats sin on the cross, makes us holy temples-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in which he can indwell with His Spirit, that we can actually navigate the world and do good for the first time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's like, that's why it's good news that sin is judged at the cross-
Seth: Right
David: ... is because now we actually have a freedom-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that we always thought we had. I thought I could choose to do good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it was actually always evil.
Seth: And I thought my good things were truly good.
David: But they weren't.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But now they can be.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Redem- like, we talked about redemptive love-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the first letter. Like, redemptively good things can actually happen in the world now.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So anyway, lots of good news there. Is there anything else-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as you're kinda thinking about, if you were thinking about 2 Peter as a story, you know? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from a total introduction standpoint that you're like, "Man, we just didn't quite touch on that," or do you feel like we've, we've done a good job kinda covering our bases?
Seth: Well, I mean, I mean, this, the final words, "Therefore, beloved, since you are writing, uh, for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish and at, and at peace and count the patience of our Lord as salvation."
David: Mm-hmm. [laughs]
Seth: And the reason why I bring up that last line, it's like, okay, we just talked about being able to be without spot or blemish before the Lord. But one of the reasons why God hasn't come back yet isn't because He's asleep at the wheel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's because He's being patient with us.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's being merciful and giving us time to be more like Him, to give up our evil, to fall at the feet of Jesus. Like, count the patience of God as salvation. It's not proof that the antichrists are right.
David: Right.
Seth: It's proof that God-
David: Or the false teachers
Seth: ... the false teachers.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: The false teachers are right. Sorry. Second thought.
David: Second Thessalonians. [laughs]
Seth: It's not, it, it's, yeah. It's not proof the, the false teachers are right. It's proof that God is saving you.
David: Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really good m- point to land on, is we've talked a lot about, like, so why isn't Jesus back yet?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the reason 1 Peter gives is that He longs for everyone to come to repentance. Jesus, or God doesn't want people to, to perish. He wants them to be saved, and so the reason He hasn't come back yet is because there's more people He wants to save.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, that's good news.
Seth: His patience is salvation.
David: His patience is salvation. The fact that He hasn't come back yet we think is putting off salvation. No.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It is expanding what salvation encompasses.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's amazing.
Seth: It's amazing.
David: Yeah. Okay. 2 Peter.
Seth: That's 2 Peter.
David: There we go. So next up, like you said, is gonna be a walk-through, 1 and 2 Peter-
Seth: Yeah, so-
David: ... kind of verse by verse.
Seth: Yep. So we're just gonna rewind the clock back to 1 Peter 1.
David: Going back to being exiles.
Seth: And we're gonna walk through that, and it's gonna be awesome.
David: I'm very excited about that. Okay. Well, guys, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next week.
Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
