Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you, my friend?
Seth: I mean, full of tacos and [laughs] ready to talk about judgment.
David: We did just go eat tacos. They were pretty excellent.
Seth: Um-
David: If you ever find yourself in Oklahoma City-
Seth: Big Truck Tacos
David: ... Big Truck Tacos.
Seth: Not a sponsor.
David: Not a sponsor.
Seth: Why do people say that?
David: I don't know.
Seth: Is there, like, a reason?
David: It's so you don't, you know you're not bought out, and you actually are personally-
Seth: Mm
David: ... endorsing it.
Seth: I'm endorsing-
David: Personally endorsing those tacos.
Seth: Big, Big Truck Tacos.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Get the lengua, the Flaming Lips taco.
David: If you can eat cow tongue.
Seth: If you can eat cow tongue, yeah.
David: It's, it's-
Seth: Uh-
David: We both had it. It's pretty good
Seth: ... Flaming Lips, that band's from Oklahoma City.
David: That's true.
Seth: So.
David: And cow tongue.
Seth: And cow tongue.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So both those reasons.
David: We've, we've turned off so many listeners already-
Seth: Get the, get the cow-
David: ... by talking about this
Seth: ... I mean, if you're, you can't handle our conversation about cow tongue-
David: You're not prepared
Seth: ... just, just get ready for-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... Sodom and Gomorrah and the world-
David: And fallen angels and Nephilim
Seth: ... and the world burning and dissolving [laughs]
David: Yeah... and melting away.
Seth: Uh-
David: It's a big, it's a big episode.
Seth: It's a big episode.
David: So what we're in, just to set the stage, we're, we're in 2 Peter 1:16-
Seth: Through the end. Yeah
David: ... we're gonna cover most of 2 Peter, and, like, what's on the line in this episode? Like, what are we covering?
Seth: We're covering, um, the claims... So Peter's dying.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is his last letter.
David: Yeah, deathbed letter.
Seth: He's just given this long sermon about the necessity of righteousness, the ne- the necessity of godliness in believers, and he's addressing now the claims of false teachers who both deny that there's a second coming, who deny the Holy Spirit-inspired quality of the Old Testament-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and so deny the necessity for living any one particular moral way.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: Right. Why do we need to obey the Bible and live a moral life if God's never gonna come back and judge?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Let's just, like-
Seth: If that's just made up by-
David: ... eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
Seth: Yeah, that's just made up by the, that's just a manmade myth.
David: Right.
Seth: Judgment is a manmade myth. We don't-
David: By the religious elite to oppress you out of your freedom.
Seth: Right. I mean, it's, he says it in verse 16, "We don't, did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
David: Right.
Seth: The false teachers are claiming the whole idea of a second coming is a manmade construct-
David: In order to control you
Seth: ... to enforce moral control.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which that sounds-
David: Very modern
Seth: ... on brand and very [laughs] modern. Um, and so what Peter does is essentially in these last two chapters, uh, is unpack why that's a false assumption-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and why it's not a myth, and why the scriptures of the Old Testament do prophesy a day of coming judgment against evil, wickedness, and unrighteousness, and therefore we must live a specific type of moral life today.
David: Okay, so that's what's on the line. That's what's going on. Where are we picking up here in 2 Peter 16? You said we just came off of talking about righteousness?
Seth: Yeah, Peter's been going all in on his deathbed sermon about not only the necessity of righteous and godly living in our own lives, a life of moral progress, but also that God has, himself has given us his righteousness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We share in the divine righteousness of God himself.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh-
David: And that grows in us into that whole thing we talked about where it's like, uh, virtue grows into knowledge-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and knowledge, self-control, and self-control, steadfastness, all that stuff. Okay.
Seth: Yes, and now he's basically doing a hard pivot-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and saying, "And we did not do this out of... We're not talking about righteousness to control you."
David: Mm.
Seth: "We're not talking about righteousness because it's a myth," which is what the false teachers are claiming. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, the living a Godly life isn't a method of control. It's not a made-up thing based off of our opinion of the end time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: No, God is coming to judge, and he demands a certain moral lifestyle now, and that moral lifestyle now and that coming judgment has all been prophesied for thousands of years in the Old Testament.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's what he's doing.
David: So now as we enter into this, this part of the argument, uh, Peter uses a fancy little chiasm-
Seth: Oh, who loves-
David: To-
Seth: ... a good chiasm?
David: E- I mean, our listeners hopefully do by this point if you're, if you're a longtime listener.
Seth: If you don't, I do.
David: But a chiasm is just basically t- like, a number of repeated themes that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, mirror one another-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in a literary way. And so this one you have, uh, he talks about how they are true teachers that have followed the true prophets, but the, his opponents are false prophets who are false teachers.
Seth: That's right.
David: And that's, that's it.
Seth: That's what's happening.
David: That's what's happening here. So he's gonna first validate his own ministry, the apostle's ministry-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and say, "What we're teaching is true."
Seth: Yep.
David: "Let me prove it to you." And how does he prove it to them?
Seth: So he's, so the, the charge is that they're teaching myths about the second coming of Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That Jesus does not have the authority to judge our moral behavior, and he's not coming to do so. And he says, "But we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." So he's saying, "You say we're mythicists-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but we were eyewitnesses to something," and here's what he was an eyewitness to. "For when he received honor and glory from the Father, and the voice was born to him by the Majestic Glory saying, 'This is my beloved Son, in who I am well pleased.'" He's talking about the Mount of Transfiguration-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that Peter, James, and John were on, where Jesus was clothed in white. He had a shining face. Elijah and Moses were there, and God speaks from the heaven, "This is my Son."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So question for you.
David: Mm.
Seth: Why is an eyewitness to this crazy supernatural event-... proof that they aren't making things up. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Uh.
Seth: Right? Because, uh, to my mind, it's like you're making things up about the end times and that Jesus is coming back. Like, oh, really? We saw Jesus turn into a white man. [laughs]
David: A white, [laughs] a white man. [laughs]
Seth: You know, like a glowing, not like a Caucasian man, like a glowing man. [laughs] And like, we saw him in his glory.
David: Yes. Right.
Seth: And that my private experience at the mountaintop with a couple of other guys proves-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... what, that you're false. I don't get that.
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the, a simple non-theological answer is, like, how can... Uh, you, you, you can, you can come at me and say I made everything up, but if I tell you that I'm an eyewitness and there's hard evidence and other people saw him with me, then, like, I'm... it's not a myth.
Seth: And you're not just attacking me, you're attacking James and John-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Jesus.
David: Yeah, it's like-
Seth: And-
David: ... a simple court of law, you know, if, uh, if, if you're claiming events happened, you know, and they're like, "Well, how do you, how do we know this, this, this occurred?" You know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, the people are coming, the per- the prosecutor's coming at you on the bench-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and he's like, "How do we know this even occurred? You could just be making all this up." And you're like, "Well, I saw it happen", and then the jury gasps. Like-
Seth: [gasps]
David: [gasps] An eyewitness.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, an eyewitness is the most damaging evidence you can bring to a court case, you know?
Seth: Yeah. In verse 18, he says, "We ourselves heard this very voice born from heaven and we were with him on the holy mountain."
David: Yeah.
Seth: The idea is we're not making things up, you are.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Well, you're just, you're the one conjecturing on no basis whatsoever that we're making things up.
Seth: That there's no coming day of judgment.
David: Where's your eyewitness that there is no coming day?
Seth: Why is the day, the transfiguration, proof of coming judgment?
David: Yeah. That's a great... I like that question better.
Seth: Uh, because in my mind, the transfiguration's just a weird story in the Gospels-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that, uh, on face value, I'm like, I don't know what happened there all the time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, now I do that I've studied it.
David: Well, yes.
Seth: But like [laughs]...
David: Oh, yeah. Totally.
Seth: Uh.
David: I remember reading that and being like, "Well, cool. Jesus glowed." Right. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] It's like, he must be God.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, that sounds cool.
David: It's a, it's a, it's a huge moment. N.T. Wright argues that it is the pinnacle of every Gospel, of the Gospel accounts.
Seth: Oh.
David: Uh, which is fascinating to read N.T. Wright on it. But, um, i- i- the point is that that is the moment that the little hints and the little clues and the little, and, like, the words and the teaching and the miracles that you get throughout the Gospels, they were, like, hinting at the fact that Jesus was God, that Jesus was fulfilling the story of Israel, that he was the fulfillment, the consummation of the story of God and His people throughout the Old Testament. But then whenever He goes up on a mountain, is transfigured into the same glory cloud that, in which God met His people on top of a mountain at Sinai.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then whenever you have the witness of the Gospel, Moses there, along with Israel's oldest chief prophet, Elijah, there at his side, it's like, oh, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
Seth: Jesus isn't just a miracle worker.
David: No. He is God.
Seth: He is God, and as God, He has the right to judge Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He has the right to judge the Earth, which I think Peter... So what Peter does here, too, he borrows language from Psalm 2 to make this point.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Psalm 2 is a psalm about the coming Messiah who will judge the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: So when Jesus is enthroned as God, He is the man who can rightfully rule I- or he- when he is transfigured-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's proof-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that he is the man who can judge both Israel and the world.
David: Yeah. It was his coronation.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's when he put on the crown.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And his people knew he was the king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so yeah, absolutely, that gives him the right to judge, 'cause not only, 'cause this is a repeat of the Sinai story, right, where the law was given, and so we know that Jesus is not a great rabbi, a great teacher of the law. He was the great author of the law. He was the one who wrote the law.
Seth: He was the one, he was the thunderbolts.
David: Right.
Seth: He was like, he was the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... glory, right? Yeah.
David: And so therefore, as the author of the law, he is its ultimate arbiter, its ultimate judge, its ulma- its ultimate implementer.
Seth: So the reason why the transfiguration is proof that there's a coming day of judgment is because Jesus has proven himself by eyewitnesses to be the judge of Psalm 2 and of Sinai.
David: That's exactly right.
Seth: So.
David: Yep. Yep. He's like, "What, on what basis does Jesus have to come back and judge the world, you know? He's not li- it's not like he wrote the law or something." And it's like, uh, except he did.
Seth: Except he did. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: We're not making things up. You are.
David: You are. Yeah.
Seth: That's, that's his point here.
David: That's, that's his point.
Seth: In the next verse, uh, Peter continues his argument-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he says this: "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to li- a lamp shining in a dark place-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: "... until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."
David: So this is where he's moving to the second part of the chiasm-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... away from, "Okay, I've confirmed our ministry-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as teachers. We're eyewitnesses. We have the authority to say that what we're, what we're teaching is not made up. We saw it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And then beyond that, I'm gonna now appeal back to the Old Testament and say that all those prophecies that we've been hearing and have put our trust in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we have seen its confirmation."
Seth: Yep.
David: "That we know that what has been said is true because of dot, dot, dot."
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're about to say.
Seth: Yeah, so he says this: "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture come fro- comes from someone's own interpretation." So apparently, part of the false teacher's claim was that the Old Testament is not written by God. It's not inspired.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's not written by the Holy Spirit.
David: It was just people m- maybe having encounters with God or, you know, like, writing good things even.
Seth: Right.
David: But they weren't God's words. They were just their own interpretation, their own manmade myths about the events of their time.
Seth: And then Peter responds like, "Well, no prophecy has ever been produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
David: Right.
Seth: There's a whole doctrine of scripture here we could get into.
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: Which is not the point we're trying to make today, but, like-
David: No.
Seth: It's-
David: It's not, and yeah, and it's, it's not necessarily Peter's point either. Um, but yes.
Seth: So, so, so-Another question here. So apparently these false teachers not only doubt that there's a coming day of judgment or that Jesus is a judge, they also doubt the authority or the truthfulness or the God-breathedness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the Old Testament.
David: Right.
Seth: And then Peter's response is, "Well, the Holy Spirit wrote it, so get over it." [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, what... Like, [laughs] as a false teacher, this doesn't feel convince- if I was going to be a false teacher, this isn't convincing to me yet. Why?
David: Right.
Seth: Why, why, why make it the argument this way?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, part of the, part of the reason is he's not writing to the false teachers, he's writing-
Seth: Oh
David: ... to the people they're teaching.
Seth: Right.
David: And I think he's reminding them, like, "Hey, let's, let's get our heads on straight here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You guys believe that the Holy Spirit wrote the Old Testament-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that, that the prophets listen to the voice of God and were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Seth: Yes.
David: So, like, let's lay the facts out. Whose teaching is most in line with the Holy Spirit and everything that's been written in the Old Testament, and then in the transfiguration of Christ, and the teachings of Christ and his apostles? If we can draw one straight line through the Old Testament, all through Jesus, and what we're teaching you today, I can prove to you that what we're saying is authentic, and what the false teachers are saying is inauthentic, because the Holy Spirit isn't gonna contradict himself, since you believe he wrote the Old Testament."
Seth: Okay. And so h- the point he's about to make is that the Old Testament scriptures have always talked about a coming day of judgment.
David: That's right.
Seth: So if you're looking to see who's right and who's wrong, who's the false teacher and who's the true teacher, well, one, who has the consistent storyline?
David: Right.
Seth: We do.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're not teaching anything new. These false teachers are teaching something new.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then in verse two he says, "But false prophets also arose among the people just as there will be false teachers among you-
David: Right
Seth: ... who secretly bring in destructive heresies-
David: Yes
Seth: ... even denying the master who bought them." So I think this is interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's connecting these false teachers to an ancient fa- like a past false teacher.
David: Right.
Seth: And they're like spirit- and these new ones are spiritual descendants of a historic type of false teaching-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's been endemic throughout Israel's history.
David: False prophets are a category in the Old Testament.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He's like, "You guys understand there's also a, a, a... If we're looking for the consistent narrative of scripture pertaining to God's judgment, there's also a consistent narrative scripture pertaining to false prophets."
Seth: He says this in verse three, "Their condemnation from long ago", their condemnation-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... from long ago, "is not idle and their destruction is not asleep." Exactly what you're saying. There's always been this threat of false teachers, and they've always taught the same thing, and the same thing, the same coming destruction, the ca- same coming judgment, has always been prophesied.
David: Yeah. It's interesting what he's doing is he's allowing the... He's using the false teachers themselves as proof of God's coming judgment.
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause he's saying like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... "Okay, let me just, let me just even..." It's such an ironic thing. He's like, "The, the false teachers are saying there is no coming judgment." And he says, "By the very fact that there are teachers teaching something contrary to scripture continues to fulfill the truth that the Old Testament has always said, that when people contradict God's will, there will be judgment against them." That's how it's always worked. When there's false teachers, false prophets, they're judged and condemned. And now again, we have false teachers and false prophets, what do you think's gonna come next? Condemnation. You're proving God's point, not counter- contradicting it. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's whole, it's irony. Like, they're falling into the trap they set for themselves, these false teachers are.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's kind of funny.
Seth: It's kind of funny.
David: Anyway.
Seth: So that's p- that's what, that's Peter's argument.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he's also warning his church that they w- might be lured into following them into the sensuality and licentiousness that they're practicing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Saying, "There's... We can live however we want because God's not coming back." And so we get into the meat of what Peter dec- so that's him setting up the argument.
David: Yeah. Now he's gonna go through his proof texts.
Seth: He's gonna through his proof texts.
David: Like, his evidence.
Seth: And so-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he has three stories.
David: Yep.
Seth: He has one about the sons of God and the Nephilim from Genesis 6.
David: Woo.
Seth: He's gonna talk about Noah and the flood, also from Genesis 6. Then he's gonna talk about, uh, Sodom and Gomorrah, which I forget the verse reference for off the top of my head.
David: Genesis 18, I think?
Seth: It's in Genesis. Um, and then in a second he's gonna talk about defiling or blaspheming or slandering angelic beings, [laughs] which we'll-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... come to-
David: Woo
Seth: ... very last. But before we get into the details here, th- the broader point I wanna make sure we land.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: A group of people is denying a day of coming judgment.
David: Right.
Seth: So what do the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sons of God and the daughters of men-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and Noah all have in common? You have a, a large percentage or a large group of people, the sons of God, No- the people living in Noah's day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah-
David: Sodom and Gomorrah
Seth: ... all denying that there was a boundary or specific moral way to live, transgressing that command.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And then you had righteous people in the midst of those being saved, and the people who denied the coming judgment, denied th- that they needed a rescuer, denied that they needed to live a certain way, were the ones that were, um-
David: Judged. Yeah
Seth: ... came under ju- ca- come under, came under judgment. So you have him giving you those two categories. False teachers are a type of people. They're like the sons of God who slept with the daughters of Eve. They're like the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah. They're like the people who didn't, who were violent and only-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... did evil all the time in Noah's day.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he gives us a contrast. Lot, who was grieved over the wickedness he saw around him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Noah, who proclaimed righteousness. He was a herald of righteousness. And what's Peter's broadest point that he's making? People who preach that there's no coming day of judgment are ironically judged, and those who know there's a coming day of judgment and weep over it and proclaim over it are the ones that are saved.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's the broadest point he's making.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he's saying, "If that's the pattern of scripture, if that's what the Holy Spirit has revealed, if that's what the judge of heaven is saying, Jesus himself, that's what you should do, too."Live righteously, proclaim righteousness, weep over unrighteousness, don't deny that all those things are coming.
David: Mm. I mean, y- you've nailed it there.
Seth: I think [laughs] I tried.
David: That's really good. No, I, I, I just wanna repeat something you said in all of this, 'cause it's just really clear is that those who deny a coming judgment will be judged. Those who are expecting a coming judgment will be saved from it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like-
Seth: That is really clear.
David: Really interesting.
Seth: I said that? [laughs]
David: You did say that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, like that's really helpful that you have these false teachers who are saying that there's not gonna be a coming day of judgment, and they fall right in line with the people who weren't expecting w- what was gonna happen in Sodom and Gomorrah, the people who made fun of Noah while he was building the ark.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and they're the ones that fell under judgment. In the meantime, you have Noah being like, "Guys, uh, the, the flood's coming. It's, you know-
Seth: It's-
David: ... judgment's really gonna rain down. Here we go."
Seth: He was a man of blameless in his time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: Yeah, and then you've got, like, you've got Lot fleeing the city.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, uh, and yeah, and those are the ones who are saved. It's really interesting. Uh, and so the, the, the argument has quite an obvious force to it, uh, of what Peter's trying to do here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Is he's just saying, "You're on the wrong side of the Biblical story."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, yeah.
Seth: I mean, he ends it this way, "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's, that's how he ends it.
David: Which is another way to say... So i- I think it's helpful to say here that it's not just, this isn't just an argument-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that he's building. It's definitely that. It's definitely a polemic against these false teachers. But it's written in such a way, too, to be a encouragement-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to these beleaguered Christians, uh, because y- y- he says, he does this whole if/then statement thing throughout where he's like, "If God judged the sons of God-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, for sleeping with the daughters of man-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if God judged the people in the days of Noah, if God judged Sodom and Gomorrah, he will judge-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the, um, false teachers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... too, those who believe there's not a coming judgment. But remember, he saved Lot, and he-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... saved Noah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So he can also save you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's an if/then thing, and it's just like, "You, you false teachers, look back. Those who don't believe are judged. You who are waiting for Jesus to return, look back. God will save."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, there's hope for you, too. Uh, it's just, like, a really pastoral way. I wish I was that good at debunking arguments while building up other people.
Seth: [laughs] I love build... I love making arguments when the other person feels terrible. [laughs]
David: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] I'm just like, man, it, it's a, that's a talented pastor there to be able to-
Seth: Uh
David: ... debunk a really intense argument while building up his congregation with encouragement.
Seth: Well, when Jesus looks you in the eyes after having denied him three times, and he sa- he says, "Take care of my sheep." You're like, "Take care of my sheep, Peter."
David: Okay. Peter.
Seth: What?
David: Peter.
Seth: What?
David: Take care of my sheep. [laughs]
Seth: Ugh, okay, I will. I'll try really hard. [laughs]
David: That, that leaves a mark on your soul. [laughs]
Seth: It leaves a mark. It does. Yeah. You, you wanna be a good pastor after that happens.
David: Um-
Seth: That's good
David: ... part of me doesn't wanna go any deeper into these stories.
Seth: Totally.
David: Um, because I think to get too much deeper into them-
Seth: Is to miss the point w-
David: Is to miss the point
Seth: ... he's making. Yeah. So let me ask you this question, then, instead of going super deep into all these different stories, why, why is it good news that the Old Testament, um, is telling a story that those who don't expect judgment and who mock a coming judgment are judged, and those who do expect a coming judgment are saved, and that that is somehow confirmed in Jesus's transfiguration as the lawgiver and judge- Mm-hmm
David: ... that is now coming to us as Christians today? Why is that story [laughs] good news for Christians right now, Seth Stewart?
Seth: I mean, [sighs] I think there, I think there's some Christians who love to stick it to the liberals and say things like, "See? There's a coming day of judgment. You're wrong."
David: Mm.
Seth: I think what Peter is doing here is saying, "There is a coming day of judgment. Don't miss that, false teachers."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But if that day is sh- certain, how much more certain is the day of deliverance?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I think, like, the inevitability of judgment is paired really closely with the inevitability of the rescue of the righteous.
David: Right, definitely.
Seth: And I think even the way you framed that a second ago was like, where does all this start? The divine lawgiver.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: How did Israel respond to, on Mount Sinai, when there was thunder and the cloud and Moses went up there? They were terrified.
David: They were terrified. They didn't wanna go near it.
Seth: They didn't wanna go near it.
David: They asked God to stop talking. [laughs]
Seth: The hope at the end of 2 Peter is that that glory comes to us in Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and we live with him.
David: Mm.
Seth: We actually, the divine law can come near us, and we're not afraid of it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: 'Cause I think that's the other thing is, like, why were they afraid? Because they were about to go into God's presence. There's no way they could be good enough-
David: Right
Seth: ... to enter into God's presence. But for those who expect that coming day of judgment, it actually doesn't come as a punishment for their wickedness, but as a relief for a life lived in righteousness. They can meet the divine lawgiver without guilt.
David: Yeah. And why? Because of Jesus.
Seth: Because of Jesus.
David: Because, uh, uh, it's a... I'm totally midrashing here.
Seth: Okay.
David: But, uh, because of what happened at the Mount of Transfiguration, you have this glorious transfigured God in, in front of you a- with Moses and Elijah next to him, and then, I mean, they wanna set up little, little tabernacles.
Seth: Mm.
David: Little, little tents.
Seth: Right. Yeah.
David: You know, to honor him and worship him there, uh, to, like, have a new feast of booths at the new Mount Sinai.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They're wanting to recreate what happened in the wilderness. Uh, and yet Jesus just stops glowing, comes back down, and it's just Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like-That, that's what we have today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We have the-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... human Jesus who has come to us but joins us into that divine, glowing nature, which first Peter, or second Peter talked about-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... earlier.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like because we had the Mount of Transfiguration [laughs] like, because you have the glorious, holy, righteous God who has come to us and it's, oh, it's just, it's Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's just there with us. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we can now-
Seth: And-
David: ... enter in
Seth: ... the hope for if we take the false teachers with any, like, positive feelings, what's the hope of their teaching?
David: Mm.
Seth: That when God re- that when they finally die and meet Jesus, that they won't be judged.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That their life won't be counted against them and that they can actually be participants in the divine. How does Peter say you can do that? Peter says that's possible.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That is possible.
David: Right.
Seth: You can live a life of sin and also be forgiven in Jesus, living a life of righteousness and it not be counted against you.
David: Right.
Seth: You can have that relief you're hoping for in him if you trust the judge, if you trust the law giver, that his laws are a way of life. Like, that, that sense of relief, does that make sense? Like-
David: It does. No, what I'm thinking is, like, w- it's good news because we do live in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: Yes.
David: We- it's good news because the, the napalm cloud [laughs] is coming.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You know? And, you know, Jesus looks out on the world, and there's not 10 righteous people, so he is coming with judgment. But he's given us-
Seth: And it's false hope to say, "Well, live however you want-"
David: Live however-
Seth: "... because that day is not coming."
David: That day is not actually gonna come.
Seth: No, what if it is coming and you still get freedom?
David: Yes. That's, that's the, that's the good news-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is that a day of judgment is coming, but God is able to save those who trust in him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he will judge-
Seth: And it also-
David: ... but he will save
Seth: ... transforms righteousness not from, like, living a good moral pro- morally-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... progressive life. It transforms it from being something restrictive into something that is liberating.
David: Mm.
Seth: Li- ri- righteous living liberates us to be with God for eternity. It liberates us to participate with the divine. It liberates us and able to actually love our neighbors as we intend, as we want to.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What is, what he, in just a second, he's gonna go into all the ways this licentious lifestyle is greedy, it's selfish, harms the people around them-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and ultimately brings about the judgment they're trying to avoid.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like actually righteousness brings you the freedom you're hoping for, and if you expect a sec a se- a coming judgment, you will actually get the relief from God you're hoping for.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, that's good news. [gentle music]
David: So you, you ended that last part talking about, um, this like we can be free-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, from an unrighteous way of living and live into our salvation-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is coming. Uh, and I, I think you're hinting at where we're about to go, which is that these people, these false teachers, were spreading and peddling a, a type of freedom-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which was some kind of sexual licentiousness-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... some kind of, like, freedom from moral restriction-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... some kind of, like, laissez-faire, live however you want kind of approach to life.
Seth: Yep.
David: Carpe diem, carpe all them diems.
Seth: Uh, yeah. [laughs] Uh, verse 18, "For speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh." Verse 19, "They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption."
David: Ah. So they're peddling freedom, but all they're giving away is slavery.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: And three different times throughout these next several verses, he'll describe this type of slavery-
David: Hm
Seth: ... as being like an animal.
David: Hm.
Seth: Um, in three kind of very different ways. [laughs]
David: Is there, can you think of a reason why he chose to use an animal metaphor to belittle these false teachers with everything-
Seth: Uh
David: ... else going on? Or is it just a convenient metaphor for him? [laughs]
Seth: Uh, well, I mean, the idea of living by your passions-
David: Mm-hmm. Oh, is living-
Seth: Living by your appetites.
David: Right, is a very animalistic way of living.
Seth: Right, and so he's ex- uh, belittling is probably the w- wrong word.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, he's exposing. He's saying, "Okay, if, if your moral compass-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is defined by what feels best or what you deem is best, that's just a thin veneer for-
David: Being kind of like an animal.
Seth: Yeah, just following your appetite.
David: Yeah, that's really interest- that's a, yeah, it's, it's a strong argument, and I think it could also be, like, a juxtaposition to how he started his letter talking about Christians.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Christians, you've been joined to the divine nature up high above.
Seth: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
David: But these false teachers, they are, like, below human nature. They're close to animals.
Seth: Yeah, he calls them irrational animals, creatures of instinct.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, born to be caught, like, trapped. How do you get trapped in something? You see food that you want in a trap. The animal goes in-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and it doesn't realize that its appetite has led it into a trap, led it into a type of judgment.
David: I, I'm so cur- so, okay, so the, the, there's a, there's, like, a, a Greek way of thinking about things-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that would've been very offended by this argument.
Seth: Okay.
David: That would've been very, like, "Oh, I don't wanna be an animal," you know?
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: We want, we're, we're above that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, the idea of a Greek way of life is to escape the carnal way of being-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and live by the cardinal virtues, and, like, that's, like, a very Greek way of thinking. So if you say I'm an animal, you better back off 'cause I wanna be a very good human.
Seth: Right. Yes, yes.
David: Uh, but there's, like, a modern way of thinking which is, like, we are evolved animals-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is how people think. And it's, like, it's actually, I'm actually living more consistently and more wholly-
Seth: Right.
David: W-H-O-L-L
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I whenever I am in tune with who, like what I want.
Seth: Right.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah, it's like, it's self-contradictory-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like you're saying. It's kind of the same way, it's like sex is everything, it defines who you are.
David: Right.
Seth: Sex is nothing, have it with who- whoever you want.
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: It's like, it's the same kind of like... And what ends up happening, you're just irrational. It's a, it's an irrational-
David: It's irrational
Seth: ... belief that's guided basic on the principle of an appetite, even if it's fenced by make sure you don't hurt anybody else.
David: Right.
Seth: It's, it's fu- that's what he's exposing-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in this moment.
David: Okay, okay. So what are the three animals-
Seth: Uh
David: ... that he compares them to?
Seth: Well, first we have to talk about blaspheming the glorious ones.
David: Do we, do we have to-
Seth: Do we [laughs]
David: ... talk about that?
Seth: So before he gets to the animal metaphor, he leads into the animal ph- metaphor by saying, "These people are bold and willful."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "They do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones. Whereas angels, though greater in might and power, don't pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord."
David: Oh.
Seth: Uh, and this is why they're like irrational animals.
David: So, so, so they're like irrational animals because they're blaspheming angels.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ye- yeah. I mean, I, I resonate with that. I totally get it.
Seth: We all get that.
David: And let's just move on.
Seth: Um, a couple ways to understand this.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, one way to understand this is on Mount Sinai-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the Book of Acts 7, in Hebrews chapter 2, angels were mediators of God's law.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? So-
David: Yeah, there was a, there was a, a Jewish tradition that the angels mediated the law giving
Seth: And even in the New Testament-
David: Yep
Seth: ... it's described as angels being present at the giving of the law and even ordaining the law.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: They were part of the ceremony
Seth: ... so to not follow God's law-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and to follow moral passion, your own moral passions, is a form of blaspheming the angels.
David: Right. And angels, of course, angels here is not the traditional word angels, is it?
Seth: Um-
David: Oh, no, it is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, it is. Okay. This is not the... I'm, see, I'm getting confused.
Seth: So-
David: But yes, uh, so an angel then here is a messenger.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, like part of that message was-
Seth: Was God's law
David: ... the law.
Seth: Was God's law.
David: Right.
Seth: So you're slandering angels by your refusal to listen to them.
David: Yeah. God, God sent messengers to tell you things, and you're-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not listening.
Seth: And it's like, and so you're judging angels' words-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and when angels w- won't even judge you. Like, and like Paul will say, "Don't, or so you're gonna judge angels one day?" He's like, "You're, you're rejecting authority-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the way that you're defi- your, your passions are controlling you." He's making the same point by pointing to the way that angels have operated in the giving of the law.
David: Okay. So I mean, he's just, he's completing his argument here.
Seth: Yes, he is.
David: Because he's been saying that like, "We have the true prophecy. We are the true teachers. You are the false teachers. We're in line with the story of scripture."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You're out of line."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "Let's even, let's think about angels in the Old Testament," right? I mean, there were angels, uh, present in at least two of the three stories he mentioned.
Seth: There are.
David: Right? Sodom and Gomorrah, they came to Abraham and told him about the destruction of Sodom-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and Gomorrah. And, um, they came and like told him the message that judgment was coming.
Seth: Yep.
David: And he, he believed them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And they came to the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the inhabitants wanted to do other things to the angels.
Seth: They wanted to rape the angels. [laughs]
David: Repeating the f- the story of the Nephilim.
Seth: Yes. So in the first story, which we didn't get into the details of-
David: Right
Seth: ... but in the beginning of the flood narrative, if you had these angelic beings, spiritual beings, having sex with the daughters of men.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So you have another angelic rape story, which is such a-
David: It's so strange
Seth: ... such a strange-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but what, what are those things, two things have in common? The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the story of the sons of God. Defiling passion, and a rejection of authority.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so he's saying, "Okay, that's actually behind the scene, that's actually what's happening when anytime you reject the law, anytime you reject God's moral teachings, there's an element of [laughs] in which you are slandering spiritual beings who have some authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that you're transgressing. [laughs]
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: That's, that's the point he's making.
David: There's a mes- so I mean, it's, it's important to just state it again just because of how oversaturated the Western imagination is with when I say the word angel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's populated with so many ideas-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that are just not true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, the, the only thing you need to be thinking about right now is a messenger.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: That's what the word angelos means.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's where angel means messenger. Angelos is just a transliteration.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or angel is just a transliteration-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the word angelos, but it means messenger. And they've, they have given a message that you false teachers aren't listening to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, you know, it's, you're, you are treating their word rapaciously.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, in a sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: And so, um, that's how they're blaspheming them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is they're saying, they're taking their message, and they're turning it on its head and saying, "Oh, they're saying that there's-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, no, no judgment."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or, "There is judgment," but really there's not.
Seth: And animals who don't understand the power of their opponents, what happens to them? They're destroyed.
David: Mm.
Seth: If a rabbit goes up against a lion-
David: Oh, I see what you're saying
Seth: ... it gets eaten.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Humans who believe they can-
David: Go against the word of an angel
Seth: ... a- are, are messing with literal Sodom and Gomorrah fire. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, you know, like they're, they're li- they're like, you are y-
David: Messing, playing, playing with fire
Seth: ... you're, you're playing with fire. [laughs]
David: Playing with napalm.
Seth: Um, to, to do this.
David: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Seth: And you, and then he goes on and say, "They're suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing."
David: Yeah.
Seth: First, he continues, "They're blots and blemishes reveling in their deceptions, and it's while they feast with you." He's saying like, "These false teachers are still among you-"
David: Yeah
Seth: "... doing all these things." [laughs]
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: Okay, yeah.
David: Yeah, so he's saying the false teachers are blaspheming the angels, the messengers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... because they're not listening to the message.
Seth: That's right.
David: He says, "But the angels aren't blaspheming you."What does that mean?
Seth: [blows raspberry]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Okay, so there, ah, so it could be they don't pronounce a blasphemous judgment against other angels-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which is what the Book of Jude will talk about-
David: Okay
Seth: ... when the archangel Michael doesn't pronounce a judgment against Satan.
David: Mo- oh, yeah, against Satan about Moses.
Seth: About Moses.
David: Right, right. Right.
Seth: So it's so [laughs] so airy.
David: Just wait till the Jude podcast for that one.
Seth: Or it could be that angels don't have any authority over us regard-
David: Yeah. Or, yeah, or they, and they know they don't, and so they're not trying to assume some false authority.
Seth: Right.
David: The idea there is probably, like, even angels? Angels, though? Like, angels?
Seth: We assume angels are in a category above us.
David: Right. And, and s- even they up there in that high category, they're not pronouncing judgment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, they're not trying to weigh what words of God are true and false, or, like-
Seth: Another way to say it is these false teachers are, um, rejecting or reversing any authority structure they can find.
David: Right.
Seth: The idea that God is judge, God as judge doesn't exist.
David: Mm.
Seth: The Old Testament as a authority of, of God for life, that's actually wrong. Angelic beings who are supposed to-
David: Be God's messenger
Seth: ... who, God's messengers, they don't... Like, we reject that authority-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... out of hand.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And hi- hi, hi, [laughs] Peter's point is, like, you have all this divine historic authority been vested to these different ca- these people categories-
David: Mm
Seth: ... my own son, and you've rejected it all.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're acting like an irrational animal-
David: Right
Seth: ... when you do this. Um, you're blaspheming about matters which, you know, with your ignorance.
David: Right.
Seth: That's-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's the point.
David: Okay. So now do I get to ask my animal question?
Seth: Yes.
David: So what three animals does he compare them to?
Seth: Oh, so first, we've just, animals in general.
David: Right.
Seth: Then he's gonna r- refer to them like Balaam's donkey.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he's gonna go to call them dogs and pigs.
David: Okay. Donkeys, dogs, and pigs.
Seth: Donkeys, dogs, and pigs.
David: Okay. So okay, why bring Balaam into this story?
Seth: Oh. [laughs]
David: So, so for those who don't remember-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... Balaam is from the story i- in the Book of Numbers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where the, the people of Israel are right outside the kingdom of Moab? I don't remember.
Seth: I don't remember either.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: Off the top of my head.
David: Okay. Anyway, maybe you can look it up while I'm retelling [laughs] the story. But they're encroaching on this kingdom, and the king there, uh, is s- scared because the Israelites have been conquering kingdom after kingdom. And so he hires a very famous and prominent-
Seth: Mm
David: ... pagan prophet named Balaam.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: A diviner, and he p- and he goes and offers to basically buy him out to, to like-
Seth: He buys a prophecy against Israel
David: ... to buy a prophecy against Israel, and Balaam finally says yes, and he goes, um, to, to condemn Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the pocket of this evil king.
Seth: That's right.
David: And on the way, even though this prophet is so stupid that he's gonna go condemn God's people irrationally because he's being paid for it, his own donkey that he's riding on tries to turn him around to keep him from doing something stupid, and he keeps beating his donkey three times-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... trying to get him to continue the journey until God opens the donkey's mouth to rebuke Balaam.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the donkey ends up being the smart one-
Seth: Right
David: ... and the, and, and Balaam's the idiot.
Seth: And it's kind of even, like, he kinda amps up. He's like, "You're being like irrational animals. Actually, worse. There are animals that know better than you."
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the [laughs] that's the, that's the joke-
David: That's the joke
Seth: ... that Peter's making.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, yeah.
David: And again, because Balaam at that point, now it's a, it's a weird story, but at that point, it's assumed that Balaam was going to not listen to God's voice.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He was going to go proclaim a prophecy against God's people-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... even though that wasn't God's word. He was going to blaspheme the message, the me-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the messenger.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The messenger. And so he's like, "You're, you're being stupider than a donkey."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah, and he's adding a layer here of greed. So Balaam is this greedy figure.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's saying these people are profiting off of their theological position here.
David: Yes.
Seth: These people are saying, "You can live a more morally, um, lax lifestyle, a more morally relaxed lifestyle," and they're getting paid for it. People are listening to them. They're-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... profiting off this, just as Balaam prophes- was going to profit off a false prophecy.
David: Right. And there's also, I mean, to bring Balaam into the story is so offensive, uh, not only 'cause of everything we've just said, you're dumber than a donkey-
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: ... you know, you're super greedy, but, like, there was peop- the, the Jewish people and, like, like, and, like, surrounding cultures kept writing about Balaam.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he was, like, a famous figure.
Seth: I mean, the fact that 2,000 years after Numbers was written [laughs] or however long-
David: Yeah, you're still referring to him
Seth: ... we're still talking about him. [laughs]
David: Yeah. But what, like, I mean, to bring him up in the context of animalism is-
Seth: Oh
David: ... really offensive because there was also, um, other literature circulating at this time that, that was claiming that, um, Balaam was, um, like, engaged in bestiality.
Seth: Ah.
David: He, so he followed his passions to some really dark places.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he was like a slave to them, so much so that he almost became what he loved, in a sense.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know, he became like a donkey.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's just, like, really gross, offensive-
Seth: Peter's not-
David: ... pronouncement
Seth: ... really holding-
David: He's not pulling his punches.
Seth: [laughs] Pulling any punches.
David: At all. And so then he calls them a dog that returns to his own vomit, which he's quoting Proverbs here.
Seth: Yeah. Before we get there-
David: Oh, okay, okay
Seth: ... let's, so, so, okay, you say he's, he's becoming-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... his own sin.
David: Right.
Seth: And this, this, so this is where Peter goes all in on the idea of being a slave to your passion-
David: Ah, right
Seth: ... right here. It's, he's like, "They're waterless springs." Like, there's something that's supposed to slake your thirst that doesn't.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: They're a mist that's just blowing anywhere that the wind takes them. They're enticing by sensual passions, but they're slaves to the passions that they say are actually freeing them.
David: Mm.
Seth: For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. Um-
David: Yeah. That's such, like, a powerful metaphor to talk aboutLike things that we pursue in our passions, a waterless spring, where it's like, man, this, uh, licentious relationship or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... pornography or, you know, any number of thing- this, the corner office.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, it's going to gush forth-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and just give me what I need. It's gonna slake my thirst.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's just, it's a spring, but it's waterless.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you go to it looking for a drink, only to come back thirsty.
Seth: And-
David: And that's what these false teachers are
Seth: ... it's, it's like a dog going back to its own vomit. It's like a pig after washing itself going back to wallow in the mire. This is the third animal imagery. So why is that like... That's a waterless spring. Vomit is a waterless spring. It's reused junk that you're eating to hope to get the same nourishment out of. It's like, it's the, it's the psychology of pornography. You know, people talk-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... about this all the time. You have a passion that you're driven by. You exhaust your passion, but it takes more to do it again-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and more to do it a third time. And there's a diminishing return that happens over time and over time, and eventually, all you're left with is the trash from your passion trying to fulfill that original desire.
David: Mm.
Seth: It never works. Maybe you're more like a pig, though, who tries to clean themself up, but like a couple days later-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it happens all over again. You can't escape your passions if your passions are your worldview.
David: Right.
Seth: If the worldview is there is no judgment, do what you want, and there's supposed to be freedom in that, there actually can never, never be-
David: You'll always be a slave
Seth: ... because your passions are the only right thing.
David: Only, yeah, the only thing you have, right.
Seth: That's the only thing that's available to you.
David: Yeah, and he says it strangely in the context of, um, verse 20, right, uh, that he says that they have, uh, if the, if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then they are again entangled in them again, uh, the last state is worse than the first. It would've been better for them to have never known the way of righteousness than after knowing it, turned back from it. And so he's talking about people who have known about Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... known about the freedom of Christ that he offers-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then said like, "No, I actually don't think he's coming back to judge the world. I actually don't think the moral code of Jesus's way of life is better," and then they go back to the vomit, back to the filth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's what he's, that's what he's saying. It's like-
Seth: Right, 'cause it, it heightens... Like, that's why it's vomit-
David: Right
Seth: ... is because it's something that you rejected at one point in time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Started tasting true food, and they're like, "Actually, I wanna go back to the vomit."
David: To the vomit.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so I mean, that's a... I think, I think verses like that are scary, I mean, for a lot of people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, that it's just like, man, people can have a Christian experience-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then go back to the vomit, and they're actually wor- why, why are they worse off then than they are, than they would've been if they never would've known about Jesus? Why is it worse-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to have loved then lost than to have never loved at all? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] I was like, does that, does that work? Um-
David: Why, why is it better to have known Jesus and lost Jesus than to have never had Jesus at all?
Seth: Uh, why is it better to have never had Jesus?
David: Yeah, why is it better, yeah, to never have Jesus. Sorry, it's the opposite.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's the opposite.
Seth: I think-
David: Sorry.
Seth: Um.
David: Yes.
Seth: Well, I mean, it's better to never taste real food.
David: Oh, right, to have the, they have the comparison of like-
Seth: Right
David: ... oh, I've never had vomit. I've only ever been filthy
Seth: ... if you've only been eating the vomit, and you, that's all you know.
David: Right.
Seth: But to have been given a taste of true freedom in Jesus, um, and to, to neglect that thing, that's a, a punishment all in of itself.
David: Mm.
Seth: And that's the, the classic C.S. Lewis line, right? He says, uh, and we, and he's talking about sensuality like this-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he says, "I don't think God would call our desires too strong-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for things like sex or money or power, but too weak."
David: Right.
Seth: "We're half-hearted creatures messing about with food and sex and drink." When freedom is offered to you-
David: Mm
Seth: ... we're, uh, the, uh, the analogy is we are content with playing mud pies in the slum because we can't imagine a holiday at sea.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the image of righteousness to Peter is the end to which the world was meant to be, a world of justice and equity, and righteousness is a good thing.
David: Right.
Seth: It's not, um... It's hard to, like, talk about the perfect world in ways that don't sound trite.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But it's like, it's the opposite of being slaves to your passion. It's being ruled by benevolence-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and by a king who cares and draws near to you. Everything they're rejecting in Jesus is actually what they hope for and what they think they can get-
David: Right
Seth: ... in their licentious lifestyle.
David: Right. [laughs]
Seth: But it's not. There's a holiday at sea com-
David: And you just are making mud pies in the slums.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Oof. Okay. So, uh, I mean, what's the good news for us here? That, like, I mean, you've got this f- this false teaching that, um, living however you want, following your passions and your appetites, um, will actually just, like, make you feel really good, and it will lead to freedom. There's no need to worry about coming judgment. Live your life however you want to. Just don't worry about it. And he says, "No, that's not true. Actually, all you're doing is being enslaved to your passions. You'll never be free. You're like an animal, a donkey's smarter than you if you believe that." I mean, what's the good news for us here as hopefully non-animalistic humans who don't wanna blaspheme angels? [laughs]
Seth: Um, there is freedom.
David: Mm.
Seth: I, I mean, that's, that's the good news.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: It's like everything that the false teachers are offering is slavery, ironic slavery, but there is freedom, actual freedom. The thing that the false teachers hope for, freedom-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is found by s- bowing to the king.Right? Like, that's actually possible. There is eternal life offered for those who love and trust Jesus. There is a world of righteousness for those who are willing to submit to God's laws. There is a world where I'm not ruled by my passions, but I'm still at that same moment given everything I want.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because, like, that's the thing... Like, I feel like I'm always double-checking my desires. Is that a right thing to want?
David: Right.
Seth: Is that a right thing to want? Is that a right thing to want? I don't know because I've got this Holy Spirit governor on my heart, you know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... trying to figure out these things. But there will be a day where I won't want wrong things anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: And, like, that-
David: To quote C.S. Lewis again.
Seth: [laughs] To quote C.S. Lewis, Prince Caspian.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But, like, and that... I mean, that is good news because the false teachers are offering something that feels like it should be true.
David: Mm.
Seth: Shouldn't it be possible for people who believe in God to not want wrong things?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yes, but not that way.
David: Right.
Seth: There is a day coming, but it's not when we are the king of our own hearts. It's when Jesus rules over the world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's coming soon. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's the good news.
David: Yeah. I mean, it feels like, it feels like, it feels like good news I really want, and I know a lot of people really want, is, is there a way to be free from my constant animalistic longings that I keep feeding and they're waterless springs?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, 'cause it just feels constant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and the answer is yes, but it's not in the waterless springs. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: You have to go to a different source.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and that source is first found by understanding that Jesus is going to come, and He's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... going to judge the waterless springs.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And He's going to judge the animalistic desires. Why? Because He's mean and petty and wants you to not live a certain way? No.
Seth: 'Cause He doesn't want you messing with mud pies anymore.
David: [laughs] Because He, He wants you to, like, know He's coming, and like Lot, turn tail and run from Sodom and Gomorrah to go to the holiday at sea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, He wants you to be in the ark, not under the water. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, because He wants a better life for you, and He wants you to join Him in the divine nature. He wants you to come up on the mount of transfiguration and behold His glory.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that's what He wants you to do. And, and so, like, I think the message here for all of us is know that Jesus is coming. Know that judgment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... against the waterless springs is coming, and turn to a better source.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Turn to a water that will never make you thirsty again.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, the... And, and it, and it's that He who is coming to judge also is able to save. [laughs] And, like, get in the ark. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... give your trust and your hope to Him, and He will slake your thirst. How?
Seth: Mm.
David: By joining you into the divine nature and by knowing Him, leading you from, you know, virtue to knowledge to godliness to everything he listed in chapter one, um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... He'll, He'll save you from being an animal.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, okay. Well, I think we're gonna have to save chapter three till next week.
Seth: Okay. Well, I'll do, uh, one more episode then.
David: One more episode-
Seth: Okay
David: ... in 2 Peter. We didn't quite get to it today. So thank you guys for listening, and we'll finish 2 Peter next week with universalism?
Seth: Oh.
David: I don't know.
Seth: I, I was not expecting that term.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But whenever we were editing our, uh, devos today, you got in on it, so.
David: I did. I was ex- c- 'cause it's just this idea of, like, why hasn't God come back yet? Why hasn't Jesus come back yet? It's 'cause He wants all to be saved. What does he mean?
David: Dun, dun, dun.
Seth: Tune in next week.
David: Tune in next week. That’s a terrible lead in. All right, guys, thank you so much, and we'll see you next week. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
