David: Hey everyone, David here. Really excited to share this episode of the Spoken Gospel Podcast with you, but wanted to share one brief note. We had a little bit of technical interference with some of our gear, wh- which resulted in some strange noises popping through in a few spots that you might notice. Just wanted to flag that for you so you didn't think your speakers or your, your AirPods or something were being weird or on the fritz. It was on our end, but we liked the content so much that we didn't wanna go back and re-record it. Uh, it should only be in a few places. Shouldn't be too, um, concerning or distracting, so just wanna flag that for you. We try to do everything with excellence here and wanted to flag that for you. So we hope you enjoy this episode of the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you for listening.
Intro: [music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of Scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told His disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of Scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Seth, why hasn't Jesus come back yet?
Seth: Because he hasn't-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... David. Just because.
David: If you, if this, if this is your first time listening, that's a strange way to start an episode. If you're a longtime listener, you know that I always say, "Seth, how you doing?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I just thought I'd throw a curveball because-
Seth: Yep, you did
David: ... this is what's happening in this text is-
Seth: This is now where we're at. [laughs]
David: So we're in 2 Peter 3.
Seth: 2 Peter 3.
David: And-
Seth: And we're finishing out the Book of 2 Peter-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and Peter's polemic or attack against the false teachers who deny that Jesus is coming back.
David: That's right. They're, in, in this particular passage, and we've talked about some of their other arguments earlier, but in this particular passage, they're saying, like, "Okay, let's just look at the hard evidence. Jesus still hasn't come back, you know?"
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: "And beyond that, look at the whole world. In all of history, things just kind of keep progressing the way they always have. There doesn't seem to be evidence of, like, cataclysmic divine interventions-"
Seth: Yeah
David: "... that bring the whole world into account. You're talking about something unprecedented. Uh, why, like-"
Seth: Yeah.
David: "There's no evidence that God-"
Seth: Right
David: "... just returns."
Seth: Jesus said he was coming back soon. It's been a while.
David: It's not soon.
Seth: It's not soon anymore.
David: Right.
Seth: And by the time Peter is being written, 50-ish-
David: Ish
Seth: ... years might have passed. Um, and I mean, now that argument's just 2,000 years-
David: Stronger
Seth: ... stronger. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's like, Jesus said he was coming back soon. Why hasn't he?
David: Yep.
Seth: You said he was gonna come. Why isn't he here?
David: Yeah, whole books have been written either attacking the idea that Jesus said that he'd come back soon.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Therefore, since he hasn't come back, all of Christianity is void.
Seth: Schleiermacher.
David: Schleiermacher. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Or if you get that joke-
Seth: You're a nerd
David: ... send us an email.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I wanna know who got the joke. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, or, uh, people defending what Jesus meant by soon to prove that Christianity is not void.
Seth: Yeah, and everybody's...
David: Should've just read 2 Peter 3.
Seth: [laughs]
David: He's got it. He's got it-
Seth: He's got it down for us
David: ... a very simple explanation.
Seth: So-
David: I just think that's a really interesting thing that's still very live, you know, for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Is, like, the false teachers are still out there, and even, like, your own consciousness [laughs] might be wrestling with this question. That it's just like, why hasn't Jesus come back yet? Does it mean that he isn't real or isn't coming back, or maybe there is not gonna be a judgment. You know, like, there's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... been so, and so many different schools of end times theology, known as eschatology, uh, have been born out of this waiting period to try to explain what's happening.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It can't happen the way the Bible, like, clearly, you know, most clearly says it's gonna happen. So let's overcomplicate it, because it's just been so long.
Seth: Yeah. It can't be s- soon, soon doesn't-
David: It has to mean something weird.
Seth: Right.
David: Okay. So that's kinda what's going on here.
Seth: Yeah, so-
David: And so not only are we gonna get a really great answer for that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's also gonna give us a little picture of-
Seth: Picture
David: ... what happens when Jesus comes back.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: Fire.
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Shoot.
David: But also, but a good fire.
Seth: But also, but also a world in which righteousness dwells.
David: Where righteousness dwells.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Um, so that's what's going on in this episode.
Seth: That's what's going on.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, yes. So Peter begins by-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... summing up the same thing he said before. We're talking about what has been anciently promised in the Old Testament Scriptures, and the fact that scoffers, false teachers, are coming up and denying that there's a coming day of judgment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the new version of this argument is, where is the promise of God's coming?
David: Mm.
Seth: Because ever since the fathers fell asleep, so that can mean the church fathers, like the apostles.
David: Oh yep, it could mean-
Seth: It could mean-
David: ... the patriarchs
Seth: ... the patriarchs. Um, regardless, all things are continuing as they were beginning from, uh-
David: From the beginning of creation
Seth: ... from the beginning of creation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the point is, you said Jesus was coming back. Everybody who's important in Israel, Israel's history, and even in the history of the Jesus movement-
David: Yep, is not-
Seth: Are, are-
David: Dead or dying
Seth: ... dead or dying. He hasn't come back, and God has not intervened in creation.
David: Yep.
Seth: He hasn't e-
David: You, even you, Peter, are telling me you're about to die.
Seth: Right.
David: And you were supposed to be, like, the, you know, on this house I will build my church guy.
Seth: And if God cares so much about how I live my life, wouldn't you think he would've come and judged me already?
David: Yeah, why, why is he sending this weak apostle to tell me what's what?
Seth: Right.
David: Why didn't he come back himself?
Seth: Peter responds, uh-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... by saying, well, they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the Earth was formed out of the water through the, through, uh, and through water by the Word of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: So the first thing they neglect is that the whole history of hu- of Earth-Begins with God intervening in human history.
David: Right. Or to say it a different way even-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that they said, "Everything's been going the same since the beginning." And he's like, "Aha, I have you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because the beginning was not the beginning.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: There was something before the beginning, and it had been going on for eternity, and then God intervened to make a beginning.
Seth: That's right.
David: So in your very, like, acceptance of the fact that there was a beginning, you've proven the opposite, that God does intervene in eternity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to bring something out of nothing.
Seth: To create.
David: To create.
Seth: And that by means of these, meaning his word-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I believe.
David: Yes, absolutely.
Seth: Uh-
David: Or the water
Seth: ... or the water, which both.
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... uh, and that by means of these, the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
David: He intervened in the flood.
Seth: Right. So the idea is God created the world by his word, and then he also destroyed the world by his word.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: These are two types of interventions-
David: Mm
Seth: ... God has done in history. You're claiming that Do- God doesn't care about what humans do on the Earth.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He created the world to put humans on it so they could do stuff on the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: When they didn't do the right things on the Earth, he, he, he, he did something.
David: He did something. [laughs]
Seth: He, he, he intervened.
David: He judged, yeah.
Seth: He judged. He brought water by a word.
David: Yes.
Seth: And now that same word-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the heavens and Earth are being stored up for fire, but are being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
David: Yes. So he's saying there's a, there's been a word of God from the beginning that you can take to the bank. Like, like, God's word does stuff.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, and it's proven in creation that God's word spoke and things came. There's God's word in judgment, that he said, "I will flood the Earth," and he did.
Seth: Mm.
David: And that same word is still speaking creation and judgment over the world today, and it's being stored up for you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, uh, the, the narrative is still going on. And so the question that then it would be on the tip of everyone's tongue is like, "So why is it taking so long? Why is it being stored up?"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, it seems like when you read the... When you read... You know, it doesn't take much time to read Genesis 1 to 6.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or even shorter from the fall.
Seth: Fair.
David: You know, Genesis, like, 4 to 6.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, okay, so the world got terrible, and God intervened.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But now it seems like there's a lot of time between Revelation 21 and, you know, what, what month is it? October 2021.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: And so it's like, why is he taking so long?
Seth: Um-
David: Is the question.
Seth: Great question.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, let me just land that first plane-
David: Oh, yeah, great
Seth: ... real quick. Um, this kind of caps off the argument that he began in chapter two, where he's like, you have these people denying that the, there's a coming day of judgment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... based on, um, the fact that the Old Testament wasn't a reliable source of your moral code.
David: Right.
Seth: Now they're making a cosmological argument. They're saying like-
David: Oh, yes
Seth: ... "God, uh, the reason why we know there's no coming judgment is because he hasn't judged yet."
David: Right.
Seth: "He hasn't intervened in human history." And, and Peter's point is, "No, your cosmological as well as your theological argument are both flawed. God does come and judge."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: "There is a coming day of judgment."
David: Right.
Seth: That's, that's like he's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and he's landing the plane for the last time, like, "You have no arguments left. You've denied the scriptures. I've disproven that point. And now you're denying that God intervenes. D- why are you breathing?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Because of God's intervention."
David: Right.
Seth: "What happened in the flood? God's intervention."
David: Right.
Seth: The, God intervenes in human history, and he's coming to judge again.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's, that's his point.
David: So the cosmological argument is that, I mean, look, Earth is still here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? It still exists. God hasn't judged. There's still evil people on the Earth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: M- we're still spinning. Like-
Seth: Yeah. Mm-hmm
David: ... prove that God judges. And he's like, "Well, he does, and he intervenes, and he has a word that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... creates and judges, and it's being stored up today."
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. So he, they've had the theological argument. They have the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... cosmological argument, and now he, he's going to put the final nail-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... which I think is the most important one-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... for this argument in verse eight, whenever he-
Seth: So like-
David: ... he says like... So, you know, they're asking the question, "Why is it taking so long?"
Seth: Yep.
David: And he says, "Do not overlook this one fact, that with the Lord, one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day."
Seth: Okay.
David: Which makes no logical sense, but that is a very beautiful and poetic way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to talk about eternity.
Seth: It's Psalm 90 verse four.
David: Yep. He's, yep.
Seth: He's quoting the Psalms, and that's exactly what he's doing. He's saying, "God does not exist on your timescale."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's not w- what's happening here. [laughs]
David: Yeah. He exists outside of time, where a thousand years could be a day, a day could be a thousand years. It doesn't matter. Time is irrelevant in God's space. And so when y- when y- when you are saying, "What's taking God so long?" You don't realize that you're asking a stupid question-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... because God doesn't take time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: God can't take long. God can't take short.
Seth: Right.
David: A wizard is never late.
Seth: Never late. [laughs]
David: Neither is he early.
Seth: [laughs]
David: He ar- he arrives precisely when he means to. Now, if you got that joke, I want it... [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: We're just gonna have a flood of emails. Uh-
Seth: Uh
David: ... that's a Lord of the Rings reference there.
Seth: Lord of the Rings.
David: Okay.
Seth: Watch it.
David: Watch it. I'm sure some of you-
Seth: You can watch the first 10 minutes to get the joke, so
David: ... and get that joke.
Seth: So-
David: It's, it's a low investment.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, and so, like, the, it's, it's a, it's an ignorant question to ask, "Why is God taking so long?" It assumes that God works on your timeline.
Seth: Yeah, or humanity.
David: Or he, a timeline.
Seth: Yeah, humanity's, the Earth's timeline.
David: God works on a timeline that a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years. It's a timeline that doesn't make sense-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because it's different.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so, um, a- and so he, and then he goes on in verse nine.
Seth: He's-
David: Go ahead. Did you have-
Seth: No, I was just gonna say, "And besides that"-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... then he goes on like-
David: Besides that, the, the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, which would be like, "I don't know, it's been a couple years. Can we..."
Seth: Yeah. It's been 10 years.
David: It, it feels soon.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It feels soon. Um-Uh, so the Lord is not slow as some count slowness but is patient toward you, which-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... I just wanna stop there. I, it's brilliant logic-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that he's just like, "You wanna call God slow? Let me redefine that. He's patient."
Seth: Patient.
David: Why? Uh, he's patient towards you because he doesn't wish that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. So God's slowness is not proof that he's aloof or not coming back-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... or there is no judgment. God's slowness, as we would count it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is actually patience because he wants more people to be saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why hasn't Jesus come back yet? Because there's more people he wants to save.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I love that.
Seth: That's so good.
David: I love that.
Seth: And it's an invitation to the false teachers. It's not too late.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, he's like, He's waiting for you too, false teachers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he's been making this argument. He's been calling them, comparing them to animals.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's prophesying this coming day of judgment. He's debunking their cosmological arguments.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He's debunking their moral arguments, and he's saying, "And that exten- that extends to you as well." Like, that day...
David: Yeah.
Seth: Repent.
David: Like, repent.
Seth: You repent.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You could be a part of the coming day.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's being patient for you. And I love how, like, this long timescale-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... like, gets zeroed in on these false teachers. And maybe, like, that's too specific to say what Peter's doing, but I imagine, like, he's responding to the allegation of these false teachers. Like, why hasn't God come yet? Maybe he's waiting for you, false teacher.
David: Mm.
Seth: Maybe the reason [laughs] why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he hasn't come yet is because he wants you to repent of what you're teaching-
David: Man
Seth: ... and how you're living.
David: That is, like, a thief on the cross moment.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You know, where these thieves are just railing Jesus, you know, saying that he's nothing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And there, there's this other thief being crucified next to him, and he repents. It's just like Jesus, in the last moment-
Seth: Mm
David: ... would save you if you would just turn.
Seth: Right.
David: You know?
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: Man, that's just some hardcore grace.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, wow. Like, why hasn't Jesus come back yet, you know, false teacher who's saying he never will?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: 'Cause he's waiting on you, buddy.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, that's just, that's just cool. I love that.
Seth: But, uh, here's what he says next.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He says, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief."
David: Mm.
Seth: So he isn't coming soon like you're defining soon.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's coming in patience, but he will come when you don't expect him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that, that's the, that's the next... There g- there's some urgency-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the repentance that's needed because-
David: Right, and he's quoting Jesus here. Like, Jesus-
Seth: Yes
David: ... talked about his own coming like this.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, and it is interesting to talk about, in this context, to talk about Jesus coming like a thief in the night because, um, no one expects a thief to come.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? And he's like, "That's how he's gonna come."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, you expected him to come soon. You had your watch out, and you were checking it. And he didn't come then, and you were like, "Oh, I guess I'll let down my guard and un- un- undeadbolt the front door and turn off the alarm system." That's when he's coming, you know? [laughs]
Seth: So, yeah, that's right.
David: And so yeah. Okay, that's interesting.
Seth: Yeah, and then he says, "And on that day when he comes like a thief, the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved. And the earth and the works that are done in it will be exposed."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And since all things are going to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be, uh, in li- or what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness-"
David: Yeah
Seth: "... waiting for and hastening the coming day of the Lord?" So-
David: Okay
Seth: ... the idea here is you don't know when he's gonna come, so repent. And on that day when he comes, what is gonna happen? Evil will be judged.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Moral perversity will be wiped away and dissolved, and all that's gonna be left on that day is righteousness-
David: Mm
Seth: ... moral perfection. So what kind of lives are you gonna live?
David: Right.
Seth: What kind of lives do you wanna hedge your bets on?
David: I wanna live a life that lives in accordance with what's not going to be stripped away.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's his point.
David: I wanna live with the moral perfection stuff so I get to keep what I have.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, okay.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, I get that. Um, yeah, 'cause he's, he's, he's talking about it like, uh, like... Is it, is it, is it kind of like gold here, where it's like a-
Seth: Okay
David: ... refiner's fire? Is that-
Seth: Oh, uh-
David: Burning up and dissolved or like wheat and chaff? Or like what's the, is, what's the image here? 'Cause when I think of burning up and dissolving, I don't think about exposing things.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, he says that the works that are done will now be exposed. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's the image I'm supposed to have in my head here?
Seth: I don't know.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think I would have to do more study on that to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... get a good answer. There might be some Greek myths that he's pulling on here as he's do- pulled from some Greek thought a couple-
David: True
Seth: ... different times.
David: That might be it. Yeah, that might be it.
Seth: But I think the idea of gold works well here. Jesus talks about the day of the Lord coming-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and only that which is in accordance with his kingdom standing-
David: Right, it's like-
Seth: Like, it'll be saved as if by fire.
David: Right, very common, like, yeah, way of think- I mean, even Paul in 1 Corinthians writes about that too.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I mean, that makes sense. Like, a, it's a burning off of that-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which doesn't, which won't live in the place-
Seth: Right
David: ... where righteousness dwells.
Seth: Yeah, and so, and I think the image of gold isn't bad.
David: Right.
Seth: What does a refiner's fire do? It-
David: It burns off the impurities
Seth: ... it burns off the impurities-
David: Right
Seth: ... and leaves only pure gold behind.
David: Right, right.
Seth: Only moral righteousness behind.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah. I mean, th- so there's, there's something interesting here too that I just wanna, like, lean in on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I think it's so interesting. He's, is, he says, "That the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed."
Seth: Mm.
David: So all three tiers of creation, of the existent world, will be done away with, and we read about this again in Revelation.
Seth: Three tiers?
David: Yes.So you have the heavens or the heavenly heavens-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is where God lives.
Seth: Okay.
David: And then the heavenly bodies, which is the sky, space, stars that you can see.
Seth: Okay.
David: And then the earth.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so there are three tiers of existence-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in, like, the, in the Jewish or the, like, the first century mindset.
Seth: Ancient mind, yeah.
David: Ancient mind, where you had the earth, you had the sky or the firmament-
Seth: The stars
David: ... and then you had the abode of the gods.
Seth: Okay.
David: The heavens of the heavens.
Seth: And when he comes, Jesus is gonna do away with them all.
David: All three, God's house-
Seth: Mm
David: ... space, and earth, are going to be refined by fire.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like-
Seth: And it, and it goes back to what he said in 1 Peter. Like, he's cr- helping us to participate in his divine nature.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that divine nature is gonna remake the world in his image. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: And only what is like him will remain.
David: Right.
Seth: He's gonna remake the world according to his nature, his divine ideas, and those will be of moral purity and goodness and righteousness and justice.
David: Yeah. I just think it's interesting that, like, even the heavens will be dissolved by fire. And, like, Revelation-
Seth: Mm
David: ... picks this up, where-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... like, the old heavens will pass away, and God will come and make his dwelling place with man.
Seth: Oh, because heavens in this mindset is, like, where the gods dwell.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God won't be far away anymore.
David: If it just said heavens, probably not.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But since it says, "The heavens will pass away and the heavenly bodies-"
Seth: Oh.
David: "... and then the earth," it's the three-tier thing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so it's like... And, I mean, Rev- Revelation corroborates this, that God's house, where he lives-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is going to, you know, is going to pass away.
Seth: Mm.
David: The old heavens are going to pass away. And then the very, in verse 13, it says, "Because we're waiting for new heavens-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and a new earth," which is not a tiered structure anymore-
Seth: It's a-
David: ... where you have three layers stacked on top of each other like a delicious cake. Instead-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the new heavens and the new earth are one thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where God's dwelling comes to be with man.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's why the refining fire happens, is because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God's presence is drawing near to it, and it's making a place for him to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... where righteousness can dwell.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Righteousness cannot dwell with unrighteousness, not because it's scared of it or allergic to it or, you know, unrighteousness is like garlic to a vampire or something.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But it's because-
Seth: Cake vampires? [laughs]
David: I'm all over that. But because righteousness, holiness consumes it, judges it. A day of judgment is coming. [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David: Like, it consumes unrighteousness. So that's the picture he's painting, is that righteousness is going to move into the neighborhood.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Heaven is going to come to Earth, and when that happens, the only thing that's left, whenever this separation universe that we're used to living in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where heavens are up there, right? God's up there. We're down here. [laughs] You know? When that ends and heaven comes to Earth and this new heavens and new earth and righteousness, the divine nature-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dwells among us, that, that separation disappears, and with it, all unrighteousness disappears.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It gets dissolved with it. So I just love this image. It's so hard to do with audio only.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm using my hands so much.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: But it's like, if you can picture this three-layered universe and the top layer coming down to the bottom layer-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and burning up everything that's bad on the way down-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with it, and leaving behind it a trail of goodness.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then when it reaches the bottom, all you have is one homogenous new heavens, new earth-
Seth: Mm
David: ... where righteousness dwells.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that's the picture that he's saying will come-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like a thief in the night.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. So that's just what I, I love that picture.
Seth: That's a really cool picture.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I just keep th- it's interesting that he uses the word waiting for twice.
David: Mm. Mm.
Seth: We should be people of holiness and godliness, waiting for the coming day of the Lord, waiting for a new heavens and a new earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: Up to this point, the day of judgment feels like a thing to be warned of.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: It-
David: And it, and it's been a subject of argument.
Seth: Uh, but, uh, and there's hope that you will escape like Lot and Noah.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: But here-
David: Oh, right, yes
Seth: ... but now it's-
David: Waiting for it, and even says hastening it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, come on. Come on.
Seth: Get here faster.
David: Could, could it be today? Could it be tomorrow?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Come on. Yeah. That is a weird development.
Seth: And it makes me realize that the idea of a world where righteousness dwells is not the powerful, like, motivating force that Peter imagines it for his own people.
David: Mm.
Seth: Peter, Peter's people are clearly wanting that day-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in a way that I don't.
David: Oh, I understand.
Seth: Do you know what I mean?
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, and he can say like, "Yeah, it's coming."
David: Right.
Seth: "Isn't that great? And you can make it come faster." I'm still a little worried about that day, given the melting that you've described [laughs] a couple of verses ago.
David: [laughs] I li- I think we have to remember, we've talked about, we haven't talked about this in a little while, but Peter's audience, we talked about in 1 Peter, was being persecuted.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know?
Seth: Mm.
David: And you never have to tell persecu- the persecuted-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that coming judgment i- is exciting-
Seth: Right
David: ... and that they should wait on it and hasten it. You know, it's like, if, if you can bring the rescue a little earlier, you would.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, you never have to tell the suffering that relief-
Seth: Right
David: ... is, to wait and be excited about relief.
Seth: Because righteousness is just another word for justice.
David: Right. They're the same word.
Seth: Same word.
David: Yeah. So justice is coming against your oppressors and your accusers. Isn't that exciting? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. It's like, finally.
David: Finally.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I like it. Can I hasten that day? I would love to hasten that day. Uh, yeah. So let's talk about one last thing before I ask a bigger question.
Seth: Okay.
David: Which is, uh, this, I love, you've mentioned it already, verse 11. W- "So what sort of people ought you to be?" And I was like, well, I wanna be the righteous one-
Seth: Oh
David: ... that can live in the righteous place.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I wanna, like, live in accordance with the new heavens and new earth, what's gonna be left and made perfect.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I wanna start living into that.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I just think, like, that's an underdeveloped im- like, part of the Christian imagination for a lot of people-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that I think is so important to-
Seth: Living, like, in light of re- eternity, in a way.
David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which, like, why do we, why do we become better and better Christians? Why do we wanna look more and more like Jesus?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Why do we accord ourselves more and more with, um, moral absolutes?
Seth: Yeah. Well, Peter began this, his first letter this way saying, like, "You're participators in righteousness, in the divine nature of righteousness." It's like that's living who God has made us to be by virtue of Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus died and given us his righteous nature, so we must live righteous lives, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: That's one part of the, the imagination. And the other part, I mean, it, it feels self, so self-evident like, and then a world of justice is coming, so live like that.
David: Mm.
Seth: I mean, I maybe I'm missing the question.
David: I m- maybe you don't have the hangups that I have or that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I feel like a lot of people I've had conversations with have, which is just like, why, why do we live better and better lives? It's, like, to hopefully be good enough so that when jud-
Seth: Oh
David: ... judgment comes, that we pass the test-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and we can escape, to escape some sense of existential condemnation [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, in order to live the good life, and the better I live, the better my life is? Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... what is moral progress for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the Christian life? And I think that here Peter is saying because you are living the life that you will live in eternity-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in a perfect world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That this is how you bring the new heavens and the new Earth to your world today. And we have to remember-
Seth: Mm
David: ... like this is, Peter's audience is exiles, are, are exiles. They're strangers and foreigners, sojourners.
Seth: Mm.
David: And if they can bring to Earth-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the kingdom that they're gonna be a part of, their real citizenship, if they can, like, live in that kingdom forever-
Seth: Mm
David: ... uh, like right now, uh, that's a really attractive thing.
Seth: Yeah. I think I'm a- afraid of that phrase hastening the coming day of the Lord. Like, I can make God come faster?
David: Ah.
Seth: Right? Like that feels-
David: Right
Seth: ... odd.
David: I don't have that power. Right.
Seth: But it's actually a huge encouragement. Like, don't you want a world of righteousness?
David: Yes.
Seth: A world of justice?
David: Yes.
Seth: A world where people aren't telling you and persecuting you for not joining in their party? [laughs]
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: At the very bottom of the level.
David: The very bottom of... Yeah.
Seth: Like, don't you want that day? Then act like the day's already here.
David: Right. And God will come-
Seth: Right
David: ... quickly. Your kingdom come, your will be done. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... whenever you live as if the kingdom of God is already here, you have hastened the day because you're living in it.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, it's not the final day, right? It's not the actual day of J-
Seth: That day comes today.
David: But that day can come today whenever you-
Seth: In part.
David: In part.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the already, the not yet. Whenever you live as a citizen of the kingdom-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you are hastening the day 'cause you're living in that day a little bit. You're peeking in to the future.
Seth: Do you think there's a sense in which our holiness also hastens the actual day?
David: I have no idea.
Seth: Like, 'cause that's a cool idea, too.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's not beyond the realm of God's omnipotence to know- [laughs]
David: Right
Seth: ... that fact-
David: No
Seth: ... how our own righteousness and justice plays into the hastening of that day.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: I mean, there's an entire eschatological model built around that idea.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes. Which we're not g- we're not even gonna name.
Seth: We're not even gonna name.
David: But, you know.
Seth: But it's-
David: But it's out there. That's a strand of thought. Um-
Seth: And it's encouraging-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to know that when we act holy and godly, God's kingdom comes-
David: Yes
Seth: ... now.
David: Yeah. Regardless of, like, your theological bent, where you land on how the end times are gonna work-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause I just don't wanna get into that.
Seth: Right. Uh, but and it will come sooner.
David: Yeah, it comes... You can exper- you can taste it now.
Seth: Yes.
David: I don't think anybody would argue that.
Seth: Yes.
David: That you, like, God wants you to live in his kingdom right now.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And when you do, you, you get to taste it a little bit. You get to step in just a little bit-
Seth: Mm
David: ... into the new heavens and new earth, um, which is just a really exciting way to live.
Seth: And, and as we wait-
David: Yes
Seth: ... verse 15, we can count the patience of our Lord as salvation.
David: Ugh, okay.
Seth: Which I love this phrase.
David: Yes.
Seth: The patience of the Lord is our salvation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's love is our salvation, right? Like, I, I have so-
David: Oh, we're used to that, yeah. The cross is our salvation.
Seth: Righteousness is salvation.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, I've got... Salvation has got all sorts of words attached to it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Patience-
David: Right, is s- yeah
Seth: ... is not one I do often.
David: I mean, think about this, though. If Jesus came in 1986-
Seth: Okay
David: ... you would not be saved, 'cause you wouldn't exist. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Yeah, okay.
David: It's just an interesting thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like you, you would never be with the Lord-
Seth: Mm
David: ... forever, in eternal bliss with him.
Seth: I was born in 1998, by the way.
David: Right.
Seth: Or 1988, by the way. [laughs]
David: Yeah. So if he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... came '86-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you wouldn't be, you wouldn't be saved. You wouldn't be with him, 'cause you wouldn't exist.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, that's a different way to talk about his patience being salvation, is that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... as, like, ge- there are more people that God wants to be born-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... get to know him-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and join his, in his eternal kingdom.
Seth: And there's more people he wants to repent.
David: Right now who have lived-
Seth: And have not yet repented
David: ... and have not yet, and, and are living now and have not yet repented. Why, why hasn't Jesus come back yet? I pray it's because my sons haven't become-
Seth: Mm
David: ... Christians yet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like, I want them to know Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? Uh, why hasn't Jesus come back yet? Because there are people in Papua New Guinea who don't even have the Bible in their language yet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, like, he wants them, he wants the gospel to come to all of Papua New Guinea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's why.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause he wants all to be saved. His patience is salvation.
Seth: And the longer God waits-
David: The more-
Seth: ... the more people are saved
David: ... that's it. Yeah, that's it. Because the, the message of the whole Bible was that God w- like, is longing for the nations. That's why the Abra, like the co-
Seth: He doesn't desire that any should perish, but sent his own son, right?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: John 3:16.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, um, like, and the covenant he made with Abraham was to bless all nations. It's always been a part of his plan. Um, so this leads me to ask just a little bit of a question.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: May be controversial.
Seth: Okay.
David: But it's just, like, what does he mean by he desires all to be saved, not wishing that any should perish? Because this has been, um, like, a, a text that a lot of people come toAnd find some roots of the, um, the teaching of universalism.
Seth: And that's part of your story, like-
David: That's part of my story.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I- yeah, by the time I was out of, out of college, getting my Bible and Biblical Languages degree, um, I just had a hard time with this very idea.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The, the coming judgment of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, I should have read more Second, Second Peter.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Um, uh, it's, which is ironic because-
Seth: Because you, you skip to the end
David: ... I definitely love this verse.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, a- and, and the idea is that, well, if God desires all to be saved and doesn't want any to perish, can't God accomplish that which he wants?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, if God desires all to be saved, and he's all powerful, can't he make it happen?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so this is where the idea of like, oh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in an afterlife, there will be an eternity of opportunities-
Seth: Mm
David: ... for people to repent and turn to God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there has to be some kind of system. It, this is like-
Seth: Right. Right, right
David: ... this is how people-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... have, have thought.
Seth: Right, right.
David: Um-
Seth: Yeah, the idea of universalism and what it represents here is beyond the scope of what Peter is talking about. However, it's something that people have thought about since origin, right?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Like, this is like, this is a-
David: It is a very old teaching.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I would actually say it's not... Although we're talking about a different stripe of it.
Seth: Uh-huh.
David: I don't think it's beyond what he's talking about here.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because what is universalism other than a denial that there is coming judgment? It's the same false teaching.
Seth: Mm.
David: Is it, "No, the sinners aren't judged."
Seth: Mm.
David: "Those who don't accept aren't judged," right? They're not-
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's just not-
Seth: Everyone will participate into the divine one day.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is the sto- that is a very common teaching-
Seth: Mm
David: ... today.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's the same teaching in a different way.
Seth: Right.
David: There's just a denial of, of the coming judgment. And I would just say, man, look at, back at all we've talked about in Second Peter so far in these episodes, is like, which one tells a more consistent story with scripture? Which one has the true teachers-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and the true prophets on their side? Which one has the false teacher, teachers and the false prophets on their side?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the biblical story has been one of, on this earth, when you deny God, you are judged. And there's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, yeah, that's just the story of the, of the Nephilim, of Noah and the Ark, of Sodom and Gomorrah, all these things that we mentioned the last episode. And so, um, I, I, I just think that, like, we, we can't say, we can't just rip, as I did-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... whenever I was graduating college.
Seth: Right.
David: We can't rip this text out of its home and say, "God wants all to be saved and no one to perish."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And be like, "Well, let's just hold onto that one thing." It's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's embedded in an entire letter proving the coming judgment of the wicked.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, you, those must coincide together.
Seth: Right. And I think, I mean, we've talked, I mean, what is it but grace? Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... there, there's a coming day of judgment. It's prophesied, it's in the Old Testament, it's consistent with Jesus as a judge who rules all nations, prophesied in Ps- Psalm 2.
David: Yep.
Seth: Everything we've talked about already. And at the same time, d- God doesn't want any to perish.
David: Right.
Seth: He doesn't want any to not repent.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, he wants, like, his patience is salvation. It's an invitation. Like, this isn't doctrine out of nowhere.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's the final invitation to an unrepentant and unbelieving group of false teachers.
David: Right.
Seth: And anybody who would agree with the ancient deception that there is no coming day of judgment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There is an invitation here. God wants even you to repent and come to him. There is no barrier to entry.
David: Right. Yeah, I would just, I think the encouragement here in this specific line of he doesn't want any to perish, right, is, is that, like, God doesn't... Like, i- in, in a whole letter talking about the coming sure, inevitable judgment of God, of the Nephilim, of the flood, of Sodom and Gomorrah, really intense passages of God's-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... judgment and, you know, against, against the ungodly, it is such good news to know that God doesn't want that.
Seth: Mm-mm.
David: God doesn't want to, like, to ju- he doesn't want them to per- have perished.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like-
Seth: It makes me think of-
David: I mean, think of-
Seth: ... Sodom-
David: I mean, think, yeah, Sodom and Gomorrah. You're about to do the whole-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 190-
Seth: Yeah. What does-
David: That's exactly where my mind went
Seth: ... what does Moses do? He-
David: Abraham.
Seth: Oh, Abraham. Gosh.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: That's... What does Abraham do?
David: Yeah.
Seth: He argues God down to 10 people.
David: And God shows great patience.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And his patience would've been salvation-
Seth: Right
David: ... if there were any righteous people there.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: And there was. Lot escaped.
Seth: Lot. And the, the one righteous person-
David: Yep
Seth: ... escaped.
David: So that's the point, is that, like, God, what if for 100 people, would you spare the city? What if for 50? What if for 40? What if for 10? You know, he got him down to 10, and then God agrees, and then at the end of the story, it proves that God was willing to save just one.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Lot.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, that's powerful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That God is so patient that, like, if he can get one person out, he will.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause he doesn't want, like, he doesn't desire anyone to perish. If he did, it wouldn't make any sense that he would send his only son to die.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, how badly does God not want the wicked to perish? He dies for them.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That's how bad.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, but you, you need to throw yourself on that story.
Seth: Don't count his patience as weakness-
David: Right
Seth: ... or as aloofness or as a lateness.
David: Right.
Seth: Count it as patience.
David: Yeah, and salvation.
Seth: It's as grace.
David: Yeah.
Seth: As salvation.
David: Yeah. Okay, last, last strange Peter thing.
Seth: Okay.
David: And then we can wrap up.
Seth: Okay.
David: Second Peter. Um, verse 15. Uh, also don't count the pa- or also, sorry, "Count the patience of our Lord as salvation." We talked about this. "Just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in, in them on these matters. There are some in these letters that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction as they do the other scriptures." So this is-The, really the only reference of like, uh, uh, what, what do I wanna say here? Like, of one letter in the, in the New Testament talking about another author of other letters in the New Testament.
Seth: In the New Testament.
David: Which is really interesting. It's like, oh, Peter and Paul knew about each other's writings. That's interesting. And then it's a very exciting thing for evangelicals, you know, who believe in the inspiration of scripture because-
Seth: Because he's calling Paul-
David: He's calling Paul's writing scripture.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is like a really intense thing.
Seth: Yeah, it's a big deal.
David: Uh, but the point of bringing that up is-
Seth: And people besides evangelicals believe in the inspiration of scripture.
David: Oh, yes. Yeah, totally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like that's the thing we're kinda all in on.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, and so, um, it's just interesting that he says that these false teachers are twisting Paul's words. Like, that they're, th- that Paul wrote some hard things in some of his letters, and that the false teachers are twisting those words to make him say whatever he wants them, whatever they want him to say. And scholars have speculated wildly [laughs] on what kind of, uh, like, which of Paul's scriptures they twisted, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: We talked about this. Like, he talks about how ... He talks about grace a lot.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? Like, free grace, how we're freed from the law, and all that kinda stuff.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so maybe it was Paul's radical teachings on grace and-
Seth: And people are like, "Well, I can do whatever I want then."
David: I can do whatever I want.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's where the l- licitiousness, licentiousness comes from perhaps.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, w- w- were there any other like ... We talked on, about one on the way back from tacos.
Seth: Uh, um-
David: I can't remember
Seth: ... I don't remember. I don't remember.
David: Yeah. Oh, oh, it was the angel thing. I remember.
Seth: Oh, right, because Paul connects the fact, in Galatians-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... the fact that angels were part of delivering the Old Testament law to the fact that the law is passed away.
David: Right.
Seth: So maybe these false teachers are saying, "See? Angels don't matter-
David: Right
Seth: ... because the law passed away too."
David: And so that's what they were blaspheming.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So anyway, it's just, I love the interconnectedness of the Biblical world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, 'cause sometimes it's hard to see behind-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the pages, you know? And it's like, oh, Peter knows that they're reading Paul, which means that Paul's letters were circulating among these churches.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Which means, like, they kind of had a similar experience we had. They were reading parts of the New Testament, which is cool.
Seth: Right, right, right, right.
David: And people were twisting the New Testament, which they still do today.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now he's using other parts of the New Testament to correct that twisting-
Seth: Yes
David: ... which is just cool.
Seth: That is cool.
David: Just like a fun little Biblical world moment.
Seth: Little-
David: So, uh, man, anything else-
Seth: No
David: ... that, that you see here?
Seth: I am happy to put 2 Peter to rest.
David: Oh, man. Let it-
Seth: To him be the glory.
David: There you go.
Seth: To God be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity.
David: And now to the day of eternity.
Seth: The day, period, thousand years, eternity. [laughs]
David: Yeah, that's just so, yeah.
Seth: [laughs]
David: A day is a thousand years, a thousand years is a day.
Seth: Yeah.
David: To the day of eternity. One day, a day will start, and it will never end. [laughs]
Seth: Which is a cool i- that's a cool way to think about it.
David: The day of, it's the day of eternity.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How do those things go together? Eh, it's God's time.
Seth: Time.
David: Yeah. Well, anyway, okay. So, uh, what's next for the podcast?
Seth: We will be jumping into Jude.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it'll just be one episode.
David: O- but it's such a long book.
Seth: It's a, what, 16 verses? [laughs]
David: Something like that, yeah.
Seth: Uh, and so we're gonna do an intro and-
David: That's it
Seth: ... explanation. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is the Book of Jude, and then we'll jump into the Book of Jonah.
David: Ooh.
Seth: Which I'm very excited about.
David: Jump into the, the waters of-
Seth: The waters of Jonah
David: ... of Jonah.
Seth: Which is not about a fish.
David: What? Okay.
Seth: We'll, we'll get there.
David: We'll tease that one later, I guess. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to 2 Peter with us, and we'll see you in June. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [upbeat music]
