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Hebrews Overview: Jesus is Better Than... Angels?

About This Episode

Hebrews starts somewhere we might not, proving that Jesus is better than angels, or more generally, the "messengers" of the Old Covenant. Seth and David explain why the author of Hebrews starts his letter talking about angels and why it's good news that Jesus is not an angel.

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Hebrews Overview: Why Jesus Is Better Than Angels and Moses

Show Notes

In this episode of the Spoken Gospel podcast, hosts David and Seth begin their journey through the book of Hebrews. They plan to cover this rich letter across three episodes, starting with chapters 1 through 4. Seth acknowledges that Hebrews can feel overwhelming with its dense Old Testament references, but he encourages listeners to stay with it because the book offers a powerful challenge to believe and obey Jesus by showing how great He truly is.

The Context of Hebrews: A Challenge to Persevere

The book of Hebrews is unusual among New Testament letters because it lacks the typical opening address that identifies its author. While the author remains anonymous, the audience appears to be Jewish Christians living in Rome who were facing persecution for their faith in Jesus. These believers had been steeped in the Old Testament from childhood. They could rattle off Scripture references as easily as people today might quote their favorite television shows.

The purpose of Hebrews is to challenge these suffering believers to remain faithful to Jesus even when it would be easier to retreat into their former Jewish religious practices. Judaism likely enjoyed a more protected status in the Roman Empire, making it a tempting alternative for those facing persecution as followers of Christ. Additionally, these Jewish believers may have felt that in accepting Jesus as Messiah, they had lost their connection to the rich heritage of their ancestors. The author of Hebrews addresses both concerns by showing that Jesus is not a departure from their history but its ultimate fulfillment. The relationship between the Old Testament and Jesus can be compared to a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. It is the same creature, but totally transformed and free in a new way that it was not before. Jesus is what the Hebrew faith was always meant to become.

Jesus Is Better Than the Angelic Messengers

The opening verses of Hebrews establish a pattern that runs throughout the entire book: Jesus is better than everything that came before. The author begins by addressing how the Hebrew people received their knowledge of God. In the past, God spoke through prophets and through angels. According to Jewish tradition, angels were present at Mount Sinai when God gave the law. Psalm 68:17 describes God surrounded by thousands of angels, and these divine beings are depicted as God's hand. Since Moses could only see God's back and never His front, the logic follows that God used angels as His instruments to inscribe the law.

The author's argument is elegant and forceful. If the Hebrew people built their entire lives on messages delivered by angels, holding people accountable to those laws with serious consequences, how much more seriously should they take a message from God's own Son? Jesus is not merely another messenger. He is the message itself. He is the heir of all things, the one through whom the world was created, and the exact representation of God's nature. Angels are servants, but Jesus is a Son. Angels carry the message, but Jesus embodies the message. This is not simply a change in degree but a change in kind. The argument paints the reader into a corner where the only logical response is to recognize that Jesus demands even greater allegiance than the angelic messengers of old.

The Necessity of a Human Savior

The author of Hebrews anticipates an objection. Why would a human messenger be more trustworthy than an angelic one? Angels seem more impressive with their divine nature and transcendent existence. But the author turns this reasoning on its head by quoting Psalm 8. Humans were made a little lower than the angels, but they were crowned with glory and honor. God gave humanity dominion over creation, an authority that angels do not possess. Jesus qualified Himself for this ultimate authority by becoming human.

The beauty of the incarnation becomes apparent as the argument unfolds. Angels can never condescend to the human level. They cannot experience fear, suffering, or death. Jesus became lower than the angels precisely so that He could taste death for everyone. He partook of flesh and blood so that He could destroy the one who holds the power of death. The Old Testament called God's people brothers, but this brotherhood was never fully proven until Jesus came in human form to share in everything His brothers experience. God did not send another angelic intermediary. He came Himself as a brother who knows what it is like to live in the shadow of death.

This is why Jesus is the ultimate messenger. He became like us so that He could make us like Him. Because He suffered when tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted. This message speaks directly to believers who feel like the New Testament is some otherworldly, disembodied advice that does not understand the difficulty of life on earth. Jesus has been where we have been. He understands the fear and weakness of humanity because He experienced it Himself, and therefore He can lead us out of it. No philosophy, worldview, or abstract idea can die for us or stand in the trenches with us. Only Jesus can do that, and that is why He is better than angels.

Jesus Is Better Than Moses

Having established that Jesus is better than angelic messengers, the author moves to an even more challenging comparison: Moses. If a Hebrew reader could concede that Jesus is superior to spiritual beings, surely Moses presents a different case. Moses was a man who suffered and died. He built the tabernacle, literally the house of God. He led the nation of Israel and received the very law that angels delivered. What could Jesus possibly offer that surpasses Moses?

The author acknowledges that Moses was great. He was faithful in all of God's house as a servant. But Jesus is faithful over God's house as a Son. Moses built the tabernacle, but Jesus built the world in which the tabernacle exists. The comparison is not between equals. Jesus presides over creation itself. Furthermore, Moses was given a task that he ultimately failed to complete. He was supposed to lead God's people into the Promised Land, into rest from their wanderings. But because of the unbelief of that first generation, Moses never entered the rest himself, and neither did his successor Joshua. The people who refused to enter Canaan because they feared the giants serve as a cautionary example. Their unbelief excluded them from the rest that God had promised.

The Rest That Remains for God's People

This historical failure raises a troubling question for the original audience. If Moses could not bring the people into rest, and Joshua only achieved a temporary and incomplete version of it, does any rest remain for God's people? Has the opportunity been lost forever? The author of Hebrews offers a resounding answer: a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God.

The foundation of this hope lies in the creation account itself. God finished His work on the seventh day and has been resting ever since. This rest is not the cessation of activity but the establishment of a kingdom. From day seven of creation, God's kingdom has been complete. His plans for the universe were set in motion, and He has been inviting humanity to enter that rest ever since. When Psalm 95 says of the wilderness generation that "they shall not enter my rest," it implies that God was already resting at that time. The failure of one generation does not close off the possibility for future generations. God's rest has been ongoing since the beginning of the world, which means it remains available for all who will enter by faith.

This theological vision offers profound comfort to believers facing persecution. They may not experience political rest or peace on every side. The land of Israel may be far away or under foreign control. The temple may even be destroyed. But none of that matters because the rest God offers is not tied to a geographical location. God did not just build the tabernacle; He built the entire world. His kingdom of rest is universal and eternal. Whether in Rome or Jerusalem, in freedom or in chains, believers can enter the divine rest that has been established since creation.

Entering God's Rest Through Faith and Obedience

The author of Hebrews uses a striking phrase to describe how believers access this rest. We are to make every effort to enter the rest so that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience that excluded the wilderness generation. This sounds paradoxical. How can we strive to enter rest? The answer lies in understanding what God does during His rest. He is not inactive. On the Sabbath, God parted the Red Sea and freed a nation from slavery. Jesus healed on the Sabbath because His Father is always working to do good. Entering God's rest means believing that the kingdom is established and secure, and then acting like it by doing the kind of good works that God does.

This is the invitation that Hebrews extends to weary, persecuted believers. There is a rest more ancient and more certain than any political kingdom. It has been running since day seven of creation. Jesus, the great high priest who has passed through the heavens, has opened the way into this rest. Because He suffered alongside us, He can bring us to glory. He was tempted in every way that we are, yet He did not sin. He fights for us and with us. Since we have a brother like that on our side, we can believe and obey Him no matter what circumstances we face. The kingdom of heaven is more powerful than any nation on earth, and God has been toppling empires from His place of rest since the beginning. That same power is available to every believer who enters by faith.

Transcript

Seth: [upbeat music] You have a brother on your side defeating death on your behalf, drawing you closer to God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Wants to make you one with God yet again like he is. He was tempted just like you are-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to give up on this being one with God-

David: Right

Seth: ... be doing all this, and he's fighting for you with you. And since we have somebody like that on our side, let's keep obeying and believing him.

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everybody to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We are beginning our study in the book of Hebrews. I think we're gonna spend about three episodes walking through it. Seth, how you feeling today?

Seth: I'm feeling, uh-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... finally excited for this podcast. Uh-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Hebrews is a lot.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think, I think most people who've tried to engage with Hebrews are like, "Oh, there's like 13 Old Testament references in the first 13 verses."

David: [laughs]

Seth: And they slow way down and get really overwhelmingly fast, and that was our experience behind the scenes grappling with the stuff of Hebrews.

David: Yeah, it was.

Seth: So I'm finally excited to talk about all that Hebrews has to offer.

David: Yeah. I, I have two questions for you right at, at, right at the front. Number one, somebody's tuning in, they're like, "Should I stick with this?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: What would you say to them is waiting for them inside Hebrews that they should be excited about?

Seth: Um, even though Hebrews seems really long, the author of the book Hebrews at the very, very end of it in Hebrews, uh, 13-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... there's 13 chapters in Hebrews. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Oh, good. You know this book.

Seth: We know it. I know this book very well.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Uh, he says this is a brief word. [laughs] It's brief.

David: Oh, gosh, yes.

Seth: But he says a brief word of exhortation.

David: Mm.

Seth: Or it's a brief word of challenge.

David: Mm.

Seth: And it's supposed to challenge people who are experiencing some form of persecution or imprisonment for the faith to remain faithful to Jesus despite how hard it is to do so.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: You know, a lot of us in the West probably are not experiencing harsh treatment for our faith in Jesus, but it is not easy to follow Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so the book of Hebrews offers us a challenge to say, "No, Jesus really is worth following, and let me challenge you to do so more deeply and more confidently-

David: Mm

Seth: ... by showing you how great Jesus is."

David: That's exciting.

Seth: So that's the book of Hebrews.

David: Okay.

Seth: I'm gonna challenge you to believe and obey Jesus by showing you how great Jesus is.

David: That's awesome.

Seth: Yeah.

David: All right. Second question.

Seth: Okay.

David: Who wrote this book?

Seth: Uh, so-

David: If, if you know anything about Hebrews, you know that-

Seth: That-

David: ... that's the joke.

Seth: That's the joke. Yeah.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Hebrews is... It's funny. Hebrews is a letter.

David: Yep.

Seth: But it doesn't work like a letter.

David: Mm.

Seth: Because normally the first thing that happens in a letter is say, "I, Paul, greet you."

David: Right. Some kind of address.

Seth: An address, and that is just entirely missing-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... from the book of Hebrews, which is odd.

David: Yeah, it just starts off, "A long, long time ago."

Seth: That's right. [laughs]

David: Yeah, a long ago, at many times, and it just kinda starts.

Seth: It just kinda starts.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So the author never mentions himself. Uh, we're never really told necessarily even who the audience is necessarily.

David: Mm.

Seth: Although there are some hints that it's more than likely a group of Christians living in Rome suffering persecution under s- one of the Roman emperors.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And that's kind of... We don't know a ton more about who wrote the book and who received it, except for the fact-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that the entire audience was more than likely Jewish.

David: Oh.

Seth: Jewish believers in Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... who had been steeped in the Old Testament, were breathing the Old Testament, and could just rattle off Old Testament verses at will and at whim, and everybody was on the same page.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: Uh, it's-

David: It's kinda like around here if, if you, uh, uh, hang out at Spoken Gospel for very long at all, you'll often just hear that we just riff off, like, The Office quotes-

Seth: That, yeah, that's exactly right. [laughs]

David: ... or Parks and Rec quotes.

Seth: [laughs]

David: And for other people on the team-

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: ... who, [laughs] who, who've never seen them, they have, they're just lost.

Seth: Right.

David: But for us, we're like, "Oh, I, I get it."

Seth: I get it. I get it.

David: But it's, like, such an actual deep cut.

Seth: Right.

David: But it's 'cause we're familiar with the text.

Seth: Yes.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So when you get into the book of Hebrews, you're gonna feel that. You're gonna feel like the author assumes a lot of you, and that the audience just was apparently following along with this argument. And so the book of Hebrews does reward deep study.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And if you have a decent Bible, they should list for you all the times it quotes from the Old Testament. So the best advice I could give you if you're reading the book of Hebrews for the first time is just whenever you see an Old Testament text, just-

David: Go read it in context

Seth: ... go read it in context and then come back-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and then spend, like, a year and a half in Hebrews.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And then, like, y- it will be beneficial to you on some level. [laughs]

David: So we'll see you all in a year and a half. [laughs] No.

Seth: Oh.

David: Okay. That, that's, that's really cool. So we have a little bit of a sense of the situation.

Seth: Yeah.

David: There's most likely Jewish Christians in Rome under some type of persecution, and they needed a challenge or an exhortation to continue to follow Jesus even though it's hard because he's worth it.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's right.

David: I'm following all of that.

Seth: Yeah, and the way that he'll do that frequently is by comparing Jesus to what they had under Judaism.

David: Mm.

Seth: Under, before Jesus came, under the old covenant, in the temple system, in the sacrificial system, all good Jewish boys and girls grew up as good Jews, going to the temple, experiencing priests, hearing the stories of Moses.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And these were, this was their worldview. This is how they interacted with the world. These were the heroes of their faith. These were the things that they were most like.Attune to and like uh, were excited by-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or hoped in and so the way that he encourages them to s- is by pointing back to all these stories and showing them how all those stories, if they were excited about those things, they should be even more excited-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... about what Jesus is doing.

David: And let me guess, let me just take a, a guess as to why he's comparing following Jesus to the Old Testament, 'cause it, it could seem random.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right? But my guess is that in Rome especially, the, the religion of Judaism or being a Hebrew and all of the cultural religious practices that went along with that were accepted by the Roman Empire. It was, you were allowed to be a Jew in Rome. You were allowed to practice-

Seth: Well-

David: ... Judaism in Rome.

Seth: Yes and no.

David: Yes and no. Okay.

Seth: So yes in, to some extent, but actually, and I, I'm gonna... I'm blanking on the name of the, the Roman emperor but I believe it was Emperor Claudius in 8049, he kicked out all Jews from Rome. And then s- part of the Book of Acts-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is written based on that knowledge.

David: Right.

Seth: So you got, um... Is it Priscilla and Aquila?

David: Yeah, they are, they-

Seth: They're, they were kicked out of Rome.

David: And then they end up going back at some point.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So like there, there's a mixed history-

David: That's right

Seth: ... is the point.

David: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Seth: But yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So depending on when you date the Book of Hebrews is to what extent that persecution was happening is-

David: I see.

Seth: Yes.

David: So it was either leading up to this mass exodus-

Seth: Or after it

David: ... or after it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: When you had Jews coming back in after that edict lifted into Rome.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, and they were trying to figure out how to reintegrate with Rome.

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay. So b- 'cause what I'm trying to figure out is why is it better to be a Jew in Rome, a J- a practicing religious Jew in Rome rather than a practicing Christian in Rome?

Seth: Why-

David: Why, why-

Seth: ... as these p- Christians are experiencing their persecution-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... why does he keep making appeals-

David: Right

Seth: ... to Jews being better than Judaism?

David: Yeah, 'cause it seems like the people that are reading Hebrews wanted to just go back to their old Jewish ways.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Why would that be attractive in their situation?

Seth: It's, it's possible for what you're hinting at.

David: Right.

Seth: Maybe Judaism was a more attractive option-

David: Right

Seth: ... between the two, and Judaism enjoyed some protected status among Rome.

David: Right.

Seth: And so it was just a more convenient way-

David: Right

Seth: ... to be alive in Rome-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... at that time.

David: 'Cause Christians got a real bad rap-

Seth: They did

David: ... in the Roman Empire.

Seth: They, they, yeah.

David: They were, they were accused of like-

Seth: Cannibalism-

David: Cannibalism

Seth: ... incest.

David: Incest. [laughs]

Seth: All types of crazy stuff.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so like they were, you know, later on-

Seth: Atheism

David: ... yeah, atheism.

Seth: Weirdly.

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah, because they wouldn't ascribe to any of the gods-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and their gods didn't have a physical representation. Their god didn't.

Seth: Right.

David: And so-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... um, but they, they were used to having Hebrews around.

Seth: Right.

David: And so I could see the cultural pressure of like, "Can't I just-"

Seth: Go back to what was easy-

David: "... go back to what was easy-

Seth: ... in the, in the past

David: ... and I was still a God-fearer, I was still doing the things I was supposed to do."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And ever since we brought in this whole Jesus thing, I just don't know if it's worth it."

Seth: Yeah. I think that could be part of the motivation-

David: Okay

Seth: ... underlying it, and I think the other part of it is that if you grew up a Jew and you are used to being motivated by the Jewish stories, this is how you lived a holy life in the world, this is how you made sense of the world, now you've accepted Jesus as your Messiah-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and all of a sudden accepting Jesus as, as your Messiah, rubber meets the road moment, you're being persecuted for that faith.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: How does, does what you grew up with, all those stories from your past matter anymore? Do they-

David: Oh, I see

Seth: ... import on what you really believe, or is this J- Jesus thing all you have? And I think part of what he's doing-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... is like, "No, no, all of your history, Jewish Christians-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... has been pointing to Jesus. So let me explain why Jesus is such great news because you know your Bible so well, because you know your history-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... so well, and let me show you why this is everything you've been waiting for. So hold fast."

David: I see.

Seth: "Persevere. Endure the suffering-

David: Right

Seth: ... because Jesus is what you're, the whole Bible's about."

David: So another way to think about it then is the reason why he's bringing up all these Old Testament passages is because they've gone out on a limb, they've started following Jesus, and it seems like that's all they have, and it's like, "Man, I used to be persecuted, but I had my community, I had this history of faith. I used to be able to be like, you know what? I'm being persecuted like Daniel when he was thrown in the lions den."

Seth: That's right.

David: "And now I just don't have those stories anymore. I don't have that history anymore."

Seth: Right.

David: He's like, "Well, what-

Seth: You know what sto- what did those stories have to say about Jesus

David: ... have, have to say about Jesus?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right. And so you just kinda felt like you might have had your cultural rug pulled out from under you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And now he's like, "No, no, no. In fact, you can stand on it, and it gets better."

Seth: Yes.

David: Okay. So maybe have both of those in our head.

Seth: Those things are... And again, we don't know a ton about the audience-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... but these are pretty good guesses-

David: Okay

Seth: ... about the motivations, about why Hebrews was written.

David: Okay. So that's a little bit of the history, the audience, and why he's comparing your faith to Jesus is, is better than and builds upon-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... the Old Testament. One last question before-

Seth: Yep

David: ... we, we jump in, 'cause it's, it's gon- we're gonna come back to it so much. Is he trying to s- to say that Jesus is better and is replacing or i- is-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... the, the Old Testament? Is he, is he trying to say that Jesus integrates in with your Old Testament? What's the relationship-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... that the author of Hebrews is trying to get his audience to see between the Old Testament and their new savior, Jesus?

Seth: I feel like you're asking, like the deepest question of theology.

David: [laughs]

Seth: It's like how does the Old Testament relate to the New Testament? What does Jesus change, and what does he keep the same?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like it's a, it's a really big question, and Hebrews is getting at the heart of it. I think a really simple way to say it is he's showing how Jesus is superior to or better than what they experienced in the old covenant-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... or in the Old Testament. What they had in the Old Testament was good. It was a, a means of God's grace to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It was the way they secured forgiveness. It's how they got, they got into the promised land. It's how they secured victory of battles. It's how they got a kingdom in the first place.

David: Right.

Seth: How the walls of Jericho came down. God in the old covenant did amazing things.

David: Amazing things, yeah.

Seth: Uh, and it was good.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But what Jesus has done in the new covenant, what Jesus is doing right now in them as he reigns in heaven is-Orders of magnitude better

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: And it builds off of what they had in the past.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's... But it's just, it's better, superior, greater than And I think, to your point, it is organically connected to what came before it. As God has acted in the past, so he's doing again on a greater and grander scale.

David: I see. And that should offer some kind of comfort to the people-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... or

Seth: It should offer them, like, it should challenge them-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to continue the faithfulness of their forefathers, challenge them to continue to obey and believe in Jesus. And it should, like, elevate-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the goodness and glory of Jesus and show that he is worth following through persecution.

David: I see. Because I think I'm starting to get a picture of it now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So I... Because, uh, for centuries, the people of Israel had been enduring through multiple different things, to varying degrees of success-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... through all kinds of persecution, ups and downs-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... you know. But the Hebrew faith continued.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It persevered, and it's like he's saying, "Now that you're under Jesus, it is even more imperative-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and it's worth more-

Seth: Right

David: ... for you to persevere in this epoch-

Seth: Right

David: ... as well."

Seth: Yeah. Hebrews 11, one of the most famous passages in the Book of Hebrews, is like the hall of fame of faith.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it's all Old Testament people, and he's giving this, them this list of people, starting with Abel in Genesis-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and going all the way through people like Daniel in the exile, the whole history of God's people, as example of people... and this is the crazy part of Hebrews 11-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of people who had faith in Jesus.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: People... And he says, "Moses believed in Jesus."

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which is... blows your mind.

David: Right, right, right.

Seth: We'll get there. We'll get there. But it's like your forefathers have been believing in the promises that Jesus brings about for millennia.

David: Mm.

Seth: Continue-

David: Continue

Seth: ... in that.

David: That's helpful.

Seth: Yeah. Uh, one of my favorite metaphors to explain what's happening in the way that Jesus is better than the Old Testament is, what does fulfillment mean, what does that look like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is like the difference between a caterpillar and a butterfly.

David: Okay.

Seth: It's like the Old Testament, the what happened beforehand, before Jesus, was a caterpillar, and it was a great caterpillar. Beautiful thing to look at, kind of interesting to look at, but when it goes into its cocoon and it's reborn, it's something totally different. It's a beautiful butterfly, right?

David: But it's still the same animal.

Seth: It's the same animal-

David: Right

Seth: ... but totally transformed and free in a new way that it wasn't before.

David: Mm.

Seth: It can fly now.

David: Right.

Seth: But it's the same animal.

David: Right, and it's... it didn't do away with something.

Seth: It, it didn't do away with something-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... but it, it became what it was always meant to be.

David: Mm, yeah.

Seth: And I think-

David: Love that

Seth: ... that's the way Hebrews is wanting its audience to engage with it. It's like Jesus is what we've always meant to be as a people.

David: Okay. That's really helpful. Thanks for bearing with me-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... all my questions. Okay.

Seth: These are great questions.

David: Then now I think we can jump into Hebrews chapter 1. [gentle music] So it says, "Long ago at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days, He's spoken to us by His Son."

Seth: Yeah. Can I keep going?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because these first verses actually telegraph the entire book.

David: Really?

Seth: Yeah. So, "Long ago and many times and many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets."

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: So just keep in your head speaking to fathers, like being spoken to by prophets.

David: Okay.

Seth: Uh, but in tha- these last days, He's spoken to us by His Son, okay, uh, "whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom He also created the world." So we've got a... something better than the prophets-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... a Son that cr- who's also responsible for creating the whole world. "He is the radiance of the glory of God, the exact imprint of His nature," meaning, like, Jesus is to God what rays are to the sun.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "And after making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." So we have three big categories here. You have prophets speaking, you have a Son creating, and you have a priest offering purification and sacrifice for sins.

David: Okay.

Seth: And throughout the Book of Hebrews, those three big ideas are gonna get unpacked in turn.

David: Prophets speaking.

Seth: Prophets speaking, so the first two chapters are about how Jesus is better than the an- the prophets that spoke beforehand-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and the leadership that came before. He's gonna go on and talk about the new world order Jesus is making by virtue of Him being the Creator of the world.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then he's also gonna talk about how Jesus is a better priest, offering better sacrifices, purifying sins better than any in the past.

David: Okay.

Seth: So in these three little verses right here, he's telegraphing some of the main themes that are happening throughout the whole book.

David: Okay.

Seth: So, uh, and just for it to put your head on straight, the way that Hebrews is structured is, is pretty clear, actually. In chapters 1 and 2, he kinda talks about these angelic messengers.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: In chapters 3 and 4, he talks about one of the Israel's prophets, Moses, one of its leaders, and how Jesus is better than Moses. So Jesus is better than angels, Jesus is better than Moses, and then he moves on to how Jesus is better than the priesthood, and then how Jesus is better than the sacrifices that came before it.

David: Mm.

Seth: And it just goes boop, boop, boop, boop, boom, all the way through.

David: Okay.

Seth: In kinda two-chapter chunks.

David: Right.

Seth: There you go.

David: All right. So why is he starting off talking about messengers and-

Seth: Oh

David: ... prophets and-

Seth: Yes

David: ... the words God spoke and how Jesus is better than that? Why start there, and what's he doing?

Seth: What he's doing here is how did the Hebrew people come to know who God was and what God, uh, expected of them?

David: God spoke to them.

Seth: God spoke to them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so in the past, God spoke through messengers.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Uh, prophets at sometimes, and then in verse 4 it says, "Having become as much superior to angels-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... [lips smack] as the name He inherited is more excellent than theirs."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So presumably, the, the Old Testament was also given to the Hebrew people through the ministry of angels-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in some sense.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so what he's saying is, "Okay, you guys have had a..."Faith passed down to you through messengers, through prophets, sometimes human prophets-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and sometimes through these divine beings called angels.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Now, what I'm saying to you is a new message is coming to you, and it's not a messenger, it's not a, a, a divine being it's God's Son Himself.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And He's coming to you not just as a messenger, but the message itself.

David: I see.

Seth: In His own body. He is a son, not a-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... servant, not a minister, not an angel, and what He's coming is better news by virtue of the fact that He's not a servant, but a son.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So-

David: I mean, that makes sense why he would start there because I feel like if you were gonna have a conversation with me about how Muhammad was better than Jesus [laughs]

Seth: Okay. Yeah

David: ... you would have to start with my Bible.

Seth: Right. How do-

David: And how his message is superior to this message.

Seth: Right. How do we get the information that we have?

David: Right.

Seth: That's right.

David: And, and so, I mean, the people of Israel were a people of the book. You even said, like, they're just riffing-

Seth: Yes

David: ... off of Old Testament. They breathed it, they lived it.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And, and so if there's now this continuation of that faith, if the caterpillar's becoming a butterfly, the way God communicates is still the same. He's gonna-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... send words. He's gonna send a message.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so now you're saying the reason why Jesus's ministry is better is because He's not just sending a message through an intermediary.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's sending the message itself through His Son.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's the really quick way to sum up two chapters. [laughs]

David: Okay. Right. And then the other, the other thing in there, which we just kinda glazed over, is the angel thing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But I'll let you riff on this.

Seth: Yes. Yeah.

David: I just wanna make one observation that's helpful is, uh, the, the English is a little... It makes it a little more difficult here because the Greek can be taken two ways.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The Greek for angel, angelos-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... can be taken two ways 'cause it just means messenger, and we've transliterated angelos into angel instead of translating it into messenger.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But sometimes angelos does refer to the spiritual beings known as angels.

Seth: That's right.

David: But it could also just mean a messenger.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so the, whenever you talk about a messenger, you know, bringing a word-

Seth: It could have been a double meaning

David: ... it could have a double meaning.

Seth: That's right. Specifically, though, he's kinda talking out, s- talking about both.

David: Right.

Seth: Talking about human messengers-

David: Yes

Seth: ... as in the prophets-

David: Right

Seth: ... like Nahum, Isaiah, Jeremiah-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Moses.

David: Right.

Seth: Uh, but he's also talking about divine messengers.

David: Yes.

Seth: And this kinda gets cleared up in chapter 2. So he starts this chapter 2 this way, "So we must pay close attention to what we have heard in Jesus, le- lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received the just retribution how shall we escape if we neglect such a great ch- salvation?" So here's what he's saying. Um, I think he's referring to Mount Sinai.

David: Okay.

Seth: On Mount Sinai, God delivered a law, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: He gave his people a law, and people were held accountable to that law. If they failed that law, they were punished.

David: Right.

Seth: If they did well by that law, they were rewarded. And so he's saying back in the old days, back on Mount Sinai, angels delivered the law. We all know this, so we can talk [laughs] about that. Um, and so he says, "And people were held responsible for how they responded to the message of angels."

David: Right.

Seth: How much more seriously do you think we should take a message direct from God's Son?

David: Right, not a messenger.

Seth: But-

David: But the-

Seth: But the thing itself

David: ... author of the message itself.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So it's the same way to talk about kind of what we're-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... what, what we're getting at here.

David: Okay. Yeah.

Seth: Do I talk about why there might be angels a- on Mount Sinai or [laughs]

David: I mean, kind of.

Seth: So this was, like, kinda crazy because throughout the New Testament, there's multiple mentions of angels being on Mount Sinai when God gives the law.

David: Okay.

Seth: Paul mentions this in Galatians 3.

David: Right.

Seth: And when Stephen is giving a speech just before he's stoned in Acts 7, he also mentions the fact that angels were present on Mount Sinai when God gave the law.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Which is a fact that I am not familiar with, and then when I read it in the New Testament, I entirely gloss over it.

David: Right.

Seth: And what's funny is there's no, like, one place in the Old Testament that it's actually-

David: That's just really clear

Seth: ... that's really clear. The, the best place you can look is, uh, Psalm 68:17.

David: Okay.

Seth: And in Psalm 68:17, it says that God, when He's on Mount Sinai, is surrounded by 10,000 or 20,000 angels.

David: Oh, yes. I see that.

Seth: And e- they're also described as his hand, like, they are, like, they're described as his arm or his hand.

David: Also, I turned right to Psalm 68:11 just prior to-

Seth: You were just ready.

David: I have no idea how I did that. [laughs]

Seth: You were just ready for it. Um, and so, uh, it seems as if Old Testament readers of scripture took this to mean that there were angels present on, uh, Mount Sinai. Now, what's interesting is that we're never told that angels write the law.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We're told that God's finger writes the law.

David: Right.

Seth: But here's a couple interesting things. The angels have just been described as God's hand-

David: Oh, okay

Seth: ... or God's arm.

David: Right.

Seth: And Moses could not see God's front.

David: Right.

Seth: Remember?

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, there's a whole scene where Moses can only see his backside.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So how does Moses know that He used his hand to write the law?

David: Mm.

Seth: How could he have seen his finger unless he saw him from the front or the side, neither of which was available to him. He could only see him from the back.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: So I think the logic of the Old Testament is God used the means of angels, messengers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to inscribe the law by God's hand.

David: I see.

Seth: And that's-

David: That they are his hand.

Seth: They are his hand.

David: Mm.

Seth: They are his hand, and that's how we received the first law.

David: I see.

Seth: The, the, the law on Mount Sinai.

David: Okay. So-

Seth: So deep cut into the Bible. [laughs]

David: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but if you take that then, and then you compare it to, let's take a minute and think about the difference of Jesus-

Seth: Okay

David: ... as the messenger.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because you have a lot of things happening here that you've mentioned so far. You said he's, i- it's not that he's bringing a message, he is the message.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Starting with that. He's an heir and a son.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right?

Seth: Right.

David: Uh, and then he's not some divine or spiritual being, he is the divine himself. He is the exact representation of God's image.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: So, like, unpack that for me and show me the difference of, like-

Seth: Oh

David: ... 'cause it, it seems crazy-

Seth: It does seem crazy

David: ... the escalation.

Seth: At this point in the argument, what the author wants to show is that we trust messages from angels, right, Hebrew?

David: Oh, uh, yes.

Seth: Right, Jewish-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Hebrew reader?

David: Absolutely, all the time.

Seth: We totally, like, trust messages from angels implicitly, and we base our lives on it.

David: Right.

Seth: We reward, punish, and have death penalties based on our understanding of the message delivered by angels.

David: Ah, yes.

Seth: Right?

David: Uh, yeah.

Seth: Totally, right? We believe-

David: I'll be the Hebrew. Yes. I, yeah, absolutely.

Seth: You totally believe that, right? So w- if we believe that Jesus-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... is God's son, the exact imprint of His nature, and is God's message to us, don't we believe that there are more serious consequences and greater rewards for following His law?

David: Right.

Seth: Right, Hebrew reader?

David: Yes. I mean, I, I mean, you've, you've painted me into a corner. I have to say yes.

Seth: Right. And so he's painted you into a corner.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And that's what I think he's literally doing here.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's challenging you. Like, you're tempted to not obey Jesus anymore.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: You're tempted to not believe in Him anymore.

David: Right.

Seth: But you believe in these other things, right?

David: Right.

Seth: You believe angels gave you the law. How much greater must you believe this, right?

David: Right.

Seth: So I think he's painting people into a corner.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then he's just gonna continue to paint people into the corner for, for, [laughs] throughout the rest of the chapter. Does that answer your question sufficiently?

David: It, it does argumentatively or polemically.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But there's also, like, a beauty-

Seth: Yes

David: ... thing happening here that I just don't want to be missed. 'Cause it's just like, okay, if angels are metaphorically God's hand-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and Moses could only see the backside of God on Mount Sinai, and angels were the ones inscribing the law, the Ten Commandments, that delivered him, you know-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... the, the, the words.

Seth: Right.

David: Then there was this intermediation happening. There was this distance. And then in Jesus, God's exact representation that no one could behold or look at comes close to us, comes to the most undeserving people, and He not only brings a message, but He is the message of God incarnate because He is God incarnate. There's just something-

Seth: Yes

David: ... beautiful happening there-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that I'm just wanting to-

Seth: He's gonna paint you further in the corner and then make it really beautiful.

David: Yeah. It's just like-

Seth: So-

David: ... I'm really glad you forced me to believe this.

Seth: Yes. So let me keep painting you-

David: Okay, okay, okay

Seth: ... into a corner, Hebrew believer, and then we'll, uh, get into it.

David: Is that who I am now? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, that's who you are.

David: Okay, got it.

Seth: That's who you are in this podcast now. Um, and so he continues. Okay, what else do we know about angels, Hebrew reader? Verse five, "We know that it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come," of which we're speaking, this world. "It was testified" and he starts quoting from Psalm 8, "What is man, that You are mindful of him? And what is the son of man that You care for him?" Broad point here is he's saying, "Okay, we trust this fact about angels, right?"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We trust that a, a law given by angels is significant, and that it's deserving of building our life on. Uh, Jesus is a better messenger than that, so we should treat Him more seriously. Beside this fact, we're never told that angels run the universe.

David: Mm.

Seth: We're told that men run the universe.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Humans run the universe.

David: Okay.

Seth: And that angels are subject to humans, right?

David: Uh, uh-

Seth: Right, right, Hebrew reader?

David: I, I guess I... Yeah.

Seth: What, what is man that You're mindful of him? You have made him a little lower than the angels, but You have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection to him.

David: Oh, okay. Th- yes, I knew that.

Seth: So you totally knew that, Hebrew reader, right?

David: Yes, I know my Bible.

Seth: You've always known that humans are more powerful than angels and have more-

David: Even though we've been made lower than them in that they're in the heavens and we're on the earth-

Seth: Right

David: ... we are-

Seth: Have been crowned with a- an authority angels-

David: That they don't have

Seth: ... don't have.

David: Right.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so who is Jesus? Is He a spiritual being or is He a human?

David: Yes.

Seth: Did... [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: You got me.

David: I'm, I'm a- I'm afraid, I'm afraid to be painted into a corner.

Seth: You, you're afraid to be painted into a corner.

David: [laughs]

Seth: His poi- he says, like... [laughs] His point is that Jesus has been made lower than the angels.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: An angel has never been made lower than an angel.

David: Right.

Seth: So that means that Jesus, who's been made lower than the angels, is greater than the angels.

David: Because He's become like the ones who are, have been given authority.

Seth: That's right.

David: He's become like a human.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So it's like we trust implicitly the authority of a message delivered by angels.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But we should actually trust as more authoritative-

David: A message from God given by a human-

Seth: Right

David: ... because they've been given more authority.

Seth: They've been given more authority.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so I think what he's doing here is kind of interesting on a, like, an exegetical level, but he's just assuming that his audience understands that he's talking about Jesus here.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right? He's like, "What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? You have made Jesus, for a little while, a little lower than the angels, but now You've crowned Him with glory and honor after His resurrection, and You put everything in subjection to His feet. And now having put everything in subjection to Jesus, that God left nothing outside of Jesus' control."

David: Mm.

Seth: And then he has this little aside, "And we know," right? Verse eight, we don't see everything subjected to Jesus, but we do see that Jesus was made lower than the angels.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Do you see where he's g- g- getting at here?

David: Yes. He's like, there is an implicit understanding that you have that they who have been made lower than the angels-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... have been given authority over everything. Everything is subject to them. And while you might not think, if you are in my argumentative space right now-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... you might not think that Jesus has everything under his authority.

Seth: Right.

David: But wouldn't you agree that He fits this category?

Seth: He is one who is qualified to inherit all authority-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... on Earth.

David: Right. Okay.

Seth: And so he's like, okay, right.

David: Yep.

Seth: And namely, that He was crowned with glory and honor. And then he says this, "Because," and this gets to the beauty part of it. So why was He crowned with glory and honor?

David: Mm.

Seth: "Because He suffered death so that by the grace of God He could taste death for everybody."

David: Mm.

Seth: So he's getting now into some, like, even deeper waters.

David: Okay, I see. Because w- w- what I think you're saying here, if I can try to massage it out and, and, and see what's happening, is he has done something that an angelic messenger never could.That they, they never condescended to our level, they never-

Seth: No

David: ... became lower than themselves. They're angels always.

Seth: That's right.

David: And Jesus as not only the messenger, but the message because he became lower than the angels, became a human, he was able to do something that angels couldn't which was namely, he could empathize with us, suffer alongside us, and ultimately die like one of us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like, I mean, I, I just think like when someone has gone through your own pain, when someone has entered into or experienced the kind of, um, trauma that you've experienced, you trust their message more.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? It's like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... I've actually been where you've been-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and this is how I got through it.

Seth: Yeah. He, the author of Hebrews uses the word, it is fitting-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that God would become human in this way so that human beings who suffer-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... can be glorified and be rewarded in, in His presence.

David: Oh, I see.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: So there's something else happening there-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... then too. So two thing, there's two comparisons you're making. One is that Jesus was able to taste death for us as the messenger of God, which an angel never could.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Therefore, he's gonna give us a better message-

Seth: That's right

David: ... because he understands us-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in a way an angel never could.

Seth: That's right.

David: Um, but then something else happened. Because he came on our plane [laughs]

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... was made like us, made lower than the angels, w- was one of us, he then is able to do something that an angel never could, is make us like him. He became like us so that he could make us like him because you said in-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... chapter one that Jesus is the heir of all things.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And whenever he became like us, he was then able to make us co-heirs and bring us with him where he goes.

Seth: Yes. Yes, that is part-

David: Which an angel never could do.

Seth: He could never do it.

David: Right.

Seth: I think, yes, and I think what he's trying to do here is to, again, prove that Jesus is better than angels.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like that's the broadest level.

David: Yeah, I think he's succeeding at that, in that.

Seth: He's succeeding.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like angels aren't sons.

David: Right, yep.

Seth: Angels aren't the message and the better news itself.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They're merely carriers of that.

David: That's right.

Seth: They're intermediaries of it.

David: Angels, uh, don't have the authority that humans have.

Seth: Yep, and, and much less authority than the human par excellence, God-

David: Jesus, yeah. Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in the flesh. And angels cannot relate to humans the way that God has chosen to relate to humans.

David: Right.

Seth: God has chosen to take on flesh and blood, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and bones, and He has chosen to experience all the same fears-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and failings of human, like the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... potential failings of humanity-

David: Right

Seth: ... so that He could rescue them from that.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it is fitting that the God of the universe who loves His creation would condescend in this way.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Angels don't love humanity this way, but God does.

David: Mm.

Seth: So it is fitting that a God who desires to empathize with His creation, and in fact, all throughout scripture, what does he call us? Brothers, sons-

David: Right

Seth: ... children, to become one of the childs that He's created-

David: Mm

Seth: ... who suffer and are subject to death.

David: Yeah, that's, that's really beautiful, and it's cool that God is bringing us into that brotherdom, heirdom-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... with Him. But one thing that's still kind of confusing and eluding me is chapter two verse 10, uh, and we've said it a few times now, "For it is fitting that He", meaning Jesus, "should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering." This idea that Jesus-

Seth: Mm

David: ... it's fitting that He should die. It's fitting that He should suffer. Why is it fitting that the ultimate messenger, uh, is dying and suffering?

Seth: Yes, yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he says it in verse 11.

David: Oh.

Seth: "Because he who sanctifies", meaning Jesus-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... "and those who are being sanctified", humans, "all have the same Father."

David: Mm.

Seth: We all have one source, and that is why Jesus always calls us brother throughout scripture, and he quotes all these verses. He's saying-

David: I see

Seth: ... it's fitting that the one who is making us glorious-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... would suffer like us because we and Jesus all have the same Father.

David: Mm.

Seth: And Jesus wants to make his brothers perfect like Him, and so in order to make his brothers perfect like Him, He becomes like them.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And what are humans? They are afraid, and that's what he says. They're afraid of death. They're over, like, they're overshadowed by the power of death and the devil.

David: Mm.

Seth: And so He comes in, and He breaks that power so that His brothers might finally be reunited to their Father in Heaven.

David: Man, so are we saying then that the, the author's point is possibly, like, that we would never have the ultimate messenger from God unless we had one who was willing to suffer alongside us?

Seth: That's right. That's exactly what he's saying.

David: Okay, because, and I, I don't know if it's in here or if it's more implicit, is like you, you trust a messenger who's like you or who's been through what you've been through.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Is that what's happening?

Seth: I think, I mean, I think it's almost more profound than that.

David: Okay.

Seth: The reason it's fitting-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is because Jesus and humanity are brothers.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like we are, have the same Father. God created us. We are His children.

David: Mm.

Seth: And Jesus is God's son.

David: I see.

Seth: We are brothers with Jesus, and God wants Jesus and all of his brothers to live with Him forever.

David: I see, and we would maybe have never have really gotten that message-

Seth: Yes

David: ... had our brother not become like us because you're like your brother.

Seth: That's right.

David: And if Jesus... And we can't become like God-

Seth: Right

David: ... by ourselves, so we couldn't have been like, "Oh, I am b- Jesus' brother, and I prove that in my own self."

Seth: Yes.

David: Jesus had to condescend-

Seth: That's right

David: ... to become lower than the angels, to become like us, to prove that we are his brother.

Seth: Yes. Well, and what he's saying is, well, the Old Testament's always called us brothers.

David: Mm.

Seth: We know that's the fact. And so in order to prove-

David: Prove it

Seth: Prove it. Jesus became human. He partook of what we partook.

David: Okay, okay, I think I'm getting it now. So the reason why Jesus is the better messenger is because the Old Testament, through intermediaries-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... told us that we were brothers.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Jesus comes and proves that we are brothers.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's why he's better.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: It's 'cause he proves what the Old Testament could only say.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He puts in the flesh what the Old Testament could only put on the page. Does that make sense?

Seth: Yeah, I think that, I think you're, you're-

David: That's help-

Seth: You're-

David: That's finally landing with me

Seth: ... you're getting, you're getting there, yes.

David: Okay, that's finally sounding like good news to me.

Seth: And it's, angels can't partake in flesh and blood.

David: Mm.

Seth: Angels cannot be subject to the fear of death because they can't die.

David: Right.

Seth: And neither can God until he becomes human.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so when Jesus comes and becomes a human, subjects himself to all our fear of dying, he can actually break the power of death and give us a life like the angels that lives forever-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that an angel actually never could.

David: Right.

Seth: That's why Jesus is better than angels.

David: Okay.

Seth: [laughs]

David: All right. So are, are we ready to land the plane with Jesus being better than angels?

Seth: I-

David: 'Cause I have one question once we do.

Seth: Yes, I think we are ready to land the plane about why Jesus is better than angels.

David: Okay, then here's my question: Why does this matter? For his audience, for us, why does this argument and painting them into a corner where it's like, "Fine, I give up. Jesus is the better messenger. Uh, you win."

Seth: Right.

David: What, what's the point of that argument?

Seth: I think part of the point is to simply convince them that God had to become human.

David: Mm.

Seth: And that Jesus, it was a necessity-

David: I see

Seth: ... that Jesus must arrive. It's impossible to go back-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to s- just the Hebrew Bible because it is a necessity for Jesus to arrive, to experience death, to break the power of death-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... if we want to experience freedom, ultimate freedom from our persecutors who can kill us.

David: I mean, that makes sense. I feel like that's a really good argument because if I was comparing, if I w- you know, if I didn't know all this-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and I was comparing angelic messengers to a human messenger, I would assume the angelic one was better.

Seth: Right.

David: Because they're angels.

Seth: Yeah, so-

David: Like a burning ball of light appeared at my door.

Seth: Yeah, like, "That's better."

David: I would listen to it, yeah.

Seth: "That one's better."

David: How am I supposed to trust a human has a better message than an angel?

Seth: Especially one that died.

David: Right. It's like there just seems to be like Jesus isn't as trustworthy of a messenger as the ones we've had all along, so-

Seth: Right. Yes, yes

David: ... I think I'll just stick to the Old Testament. And he's saying, "No, let me show you many, many ways that Jesus is actually better because he became human and because he died."

Seth: That's right.

David: And that's what he's proving here.

Seth: Yes.

David: That helps. That's very clear in my head now.

Seth: There we go.

David: Thank you.

Seth: We got there [laughs].

David: Okay, we got there. That makes sense. Okay. And the reason, again, why he's trying to show them that Jesus is better is because he's trying to encourage them and challenge them to remain steadfast ami- am- among persecution and in hard times-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to hold onto Jesus-

Seth: That's right. I mean, the verse-

David: ... when it might be easier for them to just go back to the Old Testament ways.

Seth: That's right. The very last verse of chapter two is, "Because Jesus himself has suffered when tempted, he's able to help those who are being tempted."

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like all this, what is the point of all this theology? What's the point of all this deep dive? It's to help you when you're feeling tempted.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You have a brother on your side defeating death on your behalf, drawing you closer to God-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... wants to make you one with God yet again like he is. He was tempted just like you are-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to give up on this being one with God bit-

David: Right

Seth: ... doing all this, and he's fighting for you with you. And since we have somebody like that on our side, let's keep obeying and believing him.

David: Yeah. I think that's really encouraging because honestly, I think in my, not, I was gonna say in my worst moments, but just in some of my normal moments, I can even read the New Testament and just feel like it's this otherworldly, almost disembodied angel-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... that is giving me advice or telling me a story or something that, just like, eh, I don't know, but it's really hard down here. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah.

David: And what he's saying is, is like, "No, Jesus actually has been where you've been-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and therefore proven that you, you can persevere-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and he will be with you as you persevere."

Seth: Yeah. You could still believe in some angelic messenger, some transcendent truth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But will a transcendent truth ever die for you?

David: Right.

Seth: Will he ever know what it's like to live your life afraid of death?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Will an idea of the good life ever do that for you? No, of course it can't.

David: No.

Seth: Only Jesus does so.

David: Yeah, which is the unique proposition that Christianity offers the world-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is that our God-

Seth: Actually lived in history

David: ... actually lived in history and actually suffered and died with us and like us.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's really good news because-

Seth: Yeah, a worldview of philosophy-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... an idea cannot die for you.

David: Right.

Seth: It cannot be in the trenches with you.

David: Yes. It can't, therefore it can't understand you. It can't relate to you.

Seth: And therefore it can't bring you out of the thing that actually is harming you.

David: That's right.

Seth: A worldview of philosophy hasn't been down in the death, in death yet.

David: Right.

Seth: Ideas can't die.

David: Right.

Seth: But Jesus can, and he rose again from it.

David: Yep.

Seth: So Jesus is better than any of these angelic versions of reality.

David: Right, because he's actually been where you are and therefore can lead you out of it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Which means that any other disembodied or even divine strategy to find freedom or life-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... other than Jesus is inherently flawed-

Seth: Right

David: ... because none of those have become flesh and suffered, died, risen-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and is now leading us into that same reality.

Seth: Yeah, none of them are gonna be able to sustain you through temptation the way that Jesus can.

David: Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. That's helpful. [outro music]Next-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is Jesus is not only better than the angels and the messengers, but now he's gonna go after Moses.

Seth: Yes, yes.

David: And probably not the smart way to say that. [laughs]

Seth: I mean, but he's gonna go after Moses. But I mean, who was Moses? He was a messenger.

David: Yeah.

Seth: One of God's-

David: Sh- I mean-

Seth: ... prophets

David: ... the Torah-

Seth: Yes

David: ... was a pretty big and important message. If I was a Hebrew, which, you know, you've, you've, you-

Seth: Right. You, you are-

David: ... you've said I should be-

Seth: Yeah [laughs]

David: ... in this episode, is, uh, I, I'd be, "Okay, fine. So maybe some of the angel messages, or can I subset-

Seth: Right

David: ... some of this argument off? To be like, 'Fine, maybe this section of my scripture Jesus is better than.' But not the Torah."

Seth: What about Moses?

David: What about what Moses said?

Seth: What about the Moses, the man who held the message by-

David: Right

Seth: ... that was written by angels?

David: He was a man.

Seth: He was a man.

David: So I mean, checkmate. You, you said it's important Jesus was a man. Moses was a man, and he wrote-

Seth: He suffered

David: ... he- yeah

Seth: ... he died.

David: So boom.

Seth: Yes.

David: What are you gonna say about Moses?

Seth: So let's talk about that.

David: Okay. Chapter three, what do you got for me, Seth?

Seth: Okay. He says, "Okay, great. Let's talk about Moses."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He wants you- them to consider Jesus, who has been appointed by God just as Moses was. So he starts on the similar footing. Moses was appointed go- by God, um, and so has Jesus, but Jesus is worthy of more honor and acclaim and glory than Moses ever was, and here's why. Moses was a very honorable man. He built God's house, meaning he founded the nation of Israel.

David: Yep.

Seth: He built the temple.

David: Literally the house of God.

Seth: Literally the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... house of God, and Moses was faithful in doing all those things. Technically, uh, I should probably say he built the tabernacle, but temple and tabernacle, the way the author of Hebrews uses it, is very synonymous, but when I, if I say temple, think tabernacle.

David: Okay.

Seth: If I say tabernacle, you can think temple. Um-

David: The, the place where God's glory dwelt.

Seth: Moses built it, right?

David: Okay, yep.

Seth: Mo- and he's a great man. He was faithful to do these things, to establish the nation of Israel and b- build God's house. And he did all those things as a humble servant.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right? Great. Then he says this, "But Jesus is not faithful in God's house. He's faithful over God's house as a son."

David: Hm.

Seth: "And he didn't just create a house. He built the whole world."

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: He built the world in which the t- tabernacle was built.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he's like, so he said, "Okay. Moses was great. He built God's house-

David: Yep

Seth: ... as a servant. Jesus built the world as God's son."

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: And he's like, "Jesus is a better servant because he's a son."

David: Right.

Seth: "And he did something more impressive than Moses."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think it's very interesting that the first time we're getting temple language, we're also being introduced to creation language at the same moment, and that will be important later on. So if you're an attentive listener and like Easter eggs-

David: Hold onto this one

Seth: ... temple and creation together are a, an, a, an important motif.

David: Yes.

Seth: So he's like, okay, right off the bat, Jesus presides over and is greater than Moses.

David: Okay.

Seth: Then he goes into a very long warning passage about the reason why, uh, we, the people listening, the audience, the readers, need to remain faithful to God.

David: Hm.

Seth: And we're gonna do something different here, and we're gonna talk about all the warning passages at the very end. So we're just gonna follow his thought through on why is Moses better, or why is Jesus better than-

David: Than Moses, okay

Seth: ... Moses. So-

David: So we're kinda skipping this part for now-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to address it later.

Seth: That's right. That's-

David: The warning passage.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay, cool.

Seth: That's right.

David: So then, what's the next development in the Jesus is better than Moses section after he proves that Moses, sure, Moses built the house of God, but Jesus built the world that the house was in?

Seth: [laughs] Yes. And he says, "Well, Moses was given a task," right?

David: Hm. Yep.

Seth: He was meant to lead God's people into the Promised Land.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He was supposed to lead them into rest from their wanderings.

David: Right.

Seth: They'd been enslaved in Egypt. They wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, and he was entrusted with the task to bring them in to this Promised Land, into the rest of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But what do we know from Moses's story?

David: That he didn't get them there.

Seth: He didn't enter the rest that God promised him-

David: Right

Seth: ... and neither did his successor, Joshua.

David: Right. 'Cause Joshua, although he did enter Canaan with the people of God-

Seth: That's right

David: ... their, the peace that they got was momentary, temporary, and limited.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah. And it's importantly for the warning. He says, "Why, and why weren't they able to go there? Because of their unbelief." Are you struggling to believe that Jesus is worth following under persecution? The, your ancestors of the faith had the same problem in the past.

David: Right.

Seth: And they didn't enter the rest.

David: Talking about when they went into, or they went to the land of Canaan, like, the first time?

Seth: That's right.

David: And they spied out the land, and they decided it was too scary, so they didn't enter.

Seth: That's-

David: They did not persevere in their faith-

Seth: That's right

David: ... under Moses.

Seth: That's right.

David: So you will find yourself in a s- similar situation. You're now under Jesus.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And you're wondering, "Should I persevere like my ancestors didn't-

Seth: That's right. That's right

David: ... in the wilderness?" And so what's he say to them? Like, "Don't do what your ancestors did"? [laughs]

Seth: Just, no, that's the war-

David: [laughs]

Seth: That's the conne- Like, don't be forever excluded from the rest that God is providing-

David: I see

Seth: ... that he's offering.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, and we'll talk about the warning a little bit.

David: Okay, okay.

Seth: But basically, what he says is, okay, Moses tried to get them into the rest, and they didn't get it.

David: Right.

Seth: And then he kinda has in the back of his mind, like, this potential objection a Hebrew listener might have-

David: Okay

Seth: ... or a potential worry a Hebrew listener might have. Well, if Moses never fully entered the rest and then Joshua never fully experienced it, does that mean the rest that God wanted for his people will never come?

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, is it, is that possible?

David: Right.

Seth: Is-

David: If Moses couldn't do it, if Joshua couldn't do it, can anyone?

Seth: Can anyone do it?

David: Right.

Seth: And then you just extrapolate out the rest of Israel's history. Did David do it? Did Solomon do it?

David: Right.

Seth: Did the prophet? Did, no one-

David: No one did

Seth: ... fully entered it. Does that mean, is there any rest left? Can we get back to the Promised Land?

David: Right.

Seth: Uh, so he's like, so, like, that's the problem.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right? So is there any rest left? And then he says this at the beginning of verse four. "No, no, no."Rest still remains-

David: Mm

Seth: ... for the people of God. And so he quotes Psalm 95:11, and he says, "I swore my wrath. They will not enter my rest."

David: Right.

Seth: So he's saying all the way back then, I, I said this to them, "They won't enter my rest."

David: Mm, talking about that first generation that-

Seth: That first generation

David: ... refused to enter into the land. Yep.

Seth: And what's interesting, he points out, it's like that implies that God was resting at that time.

David: Oh, enter into this rest that I have as God.

Seth: Right.

David: Not like some disembodied idea of rest.

Seth: Right.

David: But that God actually has a rest is what you're saying.

Seth: Right, and then he says, "What does Genesis tell us? Doesn't he tell him he finished working at the very beginning of the world, on day seven of the world?"

David: Yes.

Seth: "Doesn't it say," and he says this in verse four, "Doesn't it say somewhere that, ah, God rested on the seventh day from all his works?"

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So he's saying, you know, like, you're worried that there might be no rest left for you.

David: Totally. I mean, if, if the rest is the land-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and we've never been able to secure the kind of safety we needed to have this idea of rest-

Seth: Right

David: ... then possibly no leader could ever lead us into it. And in fact, Jesus himself didn't seem all that preoccupied with the idea of getting Israel back for us on a geopolitical level.

Seth: Right.

David: So, like, is there even a rest left?

Seth: Right. And he's saying-

David: If it's gonna... Yeah

Seth: ... and he's saying on a very meta level-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... yes, God has been resting.

David: Right. There, yeah, he-

Seth: God invited people-

David: Is in rest

Seth: ... is in rest.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so what he's, what I think is fascinating here is he says although, he says he stopped working on the seventh day of creation.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Therefore, a rest remains for the people of God.

David: Right.

Seth: Why can we have hope that there is rest? Because God has been resting since day seven of the world.

David: Right.

Seth: So this kind of blew my mind-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when I thought about it because the reason why we can be guaranteed, like, this peace or whatever-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... or this hope that the Israelite people have is because God has never stopped not working since day seven of the world.

David: Has never stopped not working. [laughs]

Seth: Not working. And what, and I was like, well, does this, is this blowing your mind the same way that it's blowing mine?

David: I, I just, I need some categories set up here to really understand what we're talking about. So, like, what is rest?

Seth: Yes.

David: What does it mean to say that God is resting? 'Cause I think about, like, Jesus when- whenever he was being accused of working on the Sabbath.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's like, "I've been working as long as my Father's been working."

Seth: Yes.

David: "And my Father's working right now."

Seth: That's right.

David: "So I'm working 'cause my Father's working."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So, like, does that mean God's not resting? He's working?

Seth: Great question.

David: Okay.

Seth: I think the way we should think about rest is the establishment of a kingdom.

David: Yes. That's the, yeah, that's the idea.

Seth: Right. So on the seventh day of creation-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... God's world had been made.

David: Yes.

Seth: The laws of the universe had been decided. The way he wanted humanity to interact with him had been decreed.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: God's kingdom had been finished.

David: Right.

Seth: And I think in a really important way, nothing else needed to be decided after that point.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The whole universe had been...

David: Made

Seth: ... made.

David: Yeah.

Seth: All the laws in place, his plans-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... for his creation had an endpoint-

David: Right

Seth: ... which one day heaven and earth would combine-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and be united. God finished the work of orchestrating, designing-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and bringing the universe into existence on day seven.

David: Yes.

Seth: And since the fall of Adam and Eve, no one has entered the rest that God has been experiencing since day seven the world was made.

David: And he's in that rest because although the world is in upheaval-

Seth: Mm

David: ... he knows that the kingdom is and will be established.

Seth: Yes.

David: And w- the reason we can say that is because this idea of rest, and the rest that Moses was trying to bring and Joshua was trying to bring was the establishment of a kingdom inside the land of Canaan.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: When they were on the border of Canaan, the people of God, that first generation of desert wanderers-

Seth: Yep

David: ... and it said that they, they didn't enter into his rest.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's talking about they didn't go into Canaan and start the kingdom.

Seth: That's right.

David: It's talking about rest was the establishment of a kingdom.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And the rest that Joshua would bring is the idea of peace on every side-

Seth: Yep

David: ... and a rest from your enemies.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that kind of kingdom rest never was realized in space-time history with Israel for any significant period of time.

Seth: That's right.

David: But God has been resting in a different kingdom-

Seth: From day seven

David: ... from day seven 'cause I think the, the, the audience here for m- myself, the Hebrew-

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah

David: ... I'd be like, okay, cool, so we've talked about the message-

Seth: Mm

David: ... and how Jesus is better, but what about, like, our land, our inheritance-

Seth: Mm

David: ... this rest in a kingdom that we've been-

Seth: That's right

David: ... promised from the beginning? 'Cause, like, that's, like, a huge part of the Old Testament story is when are we gonna enter into this kingdom of rest?

Seth: Right.

David: And who's gonna handle that?

Seth: Right.

David: And God's like, "I've handled it from the beginning."

Seth: Yes.

David: "On day seven I rested. I'd done everything, and it remains here for you. Come and join me in it."

Seth: That's right. Moses tried to enter a version of that rest.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Right?

David: Yes.

Seth: And he failed to do so.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Everyone's worried maybe there is no rest for the people of God.

David: Right.

Seth: No. God has been resting. His kingdom has been established since day seven, which means he's always been waiting to bring God's people back into his rest, into his kingdom one day in the future.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so we say, okay, w- you wanna know that Jesus is better than Moses. First you have to remember that there is still rest for you, that you did not eternally disqualify yourself as a people from entering that rest the day you were unbelieving and didn't go into the land.

David: Mm.

Seth: Rest still remains for you.

David: Right.

Seth: So point one, you need to believe rest still remains for you-

David: Yes

Seth: ... before I talk about how Jesus is better than Moses.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Rest is still available, uh-

David: Okay

Seth: ... for you, right?

David: Yes, absolutely.

Seth: Um, and so then he says, "Therefore, we should..." And this is a wonderfully bizarre turn of phrase that I lo- that I've learned to love in Hebrews. He said, verse nine of chapter four, "So then there f- remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.I actually meant to say verse 11. "So there remains Sabbath rest for the people of God." But then verse 11, "Therefore let us strive, let us work, make every effort to enter the rest so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So isn't that an interesting phrase? Like-

David: Strive to enter rest

Seth: ... strive to enter rest. And what's you've already pointed this out is that if God's been resting since day seven of creation, how can Jesus say that my Father is at work?

David: Right.

Seth: Because not all work is work on the Sabbath.

David: Oh, right. Yes, Jesus proved many times over in his ministry how there's good work to do even on a day of rest like the Sabbath.

Seth: Right. So I think the way that you should understand this is that since day seven of creation, God has been resting because his interactions with humanity have only ever done them good.

David: Mm.

Seth: In the same way that a man would pull his donkey out of a well-

David: Right

Seth: ... or Jesus would heal a man's hand.

David: A man with a livered ha-

Seth: Livered

David: A liver hand?

Seth: A livered hand.

David: Oh, a withered hand.

Seth: Just an old guy's hand [laughs] that's just look-

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: ... look livered. [laughs]

David: Full of liver spots.

Seth: Um, God's been doing that kind of work-

David: Good work

Seth: ... since the beginning of the world.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so how do we enter into a world of re- a kingdom of rest and good works?

David: Yeah.

Seth: By making every effort to believe the God who is at rest, and we must do the kind of works that he does. We must believe Jesus and do good like God's been doing.

David: Yeah. So that operating from rest then is this idea of doing good. Is that the idea?

Seth: I th- I think that's part, I think there's part of it, which is belief. I think this is two sides of the same coin.

David: Okay.

Seth: We must believe that Jesus exists.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he'll say this in Hebrews 11, "And he rewards those that diligently seek him."

David: Yeah.

Seth: We must believe and we must obey. We must believe that Jesus is the ultimate Moses. We must believe that Jesus is better than angels-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and act as if that is true in our lives by persevering through persecution-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and doing good to our neighbors and to, and to the Lord.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We must do the types of good works that God is doing.

David: Yeah, I, that's helpful 'cause I think one thing that, that I think w- has to be talked about here is y- think about Abraham. Abraham never entered into the land in the, in, in a restful way-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... where there's peace on every side, you know.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He was a nomad.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Sojourner. And yet, I think there are some examples that he lived a rested life in, in some sense.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that he could be at home even though he wasn't at rest in the way that Moses thought his people was g- we- were going to be.

Seth: Yeah, yeah. He, he got a partial, like, down payment on the rest.

David: Yeah. And so it's like there was this shadow of rest that Moses-

Seth: Caterpillar of rest.

David: Yeah, this caterpillar of rest that Moses was trying to achieve for his people, that Joshua was trying to achieve, that David was trying to achieve for his people. That if we could have a kingdom here on earth where there were no enemies attacking us and we were self-sufficient, that wouldn't be a bad thing. That'd be a really good thing.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And that's what God wanted for his people. Like, that they would have this picture of a kingdom at rest, w- but it was only a shadow of the reality that God has in heaven.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: God is at rest in his kingdom.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he wants to manifest that among his people. But now you have the Hebrews getting this letter.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: They are not at rest. There is not peace on every side.

Seth: That's right.

David: And they're like, "How can we have rest when we are surrounded by enemies, being persecuted? It's clear to us that Israel's not gonna be restored to its former glory anytime soon. How can I have rest when there's not peace on every side?" And God's like, "There is a rest that I've been in from the beginning that I'm inviting you into."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "And you can join that rest, and out of it, you can do good and persevere and have faith no matter what your circumstance looks like."

Seth: That's right, because Jesus is greater than Moses, and he has opened the way-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... towards that rest in his life.

David: Mm.

Seth: Moses was a leader of God's people who could not get them to enter the rest. David-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... Abraham, everybody was, but Jesus is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he goes on in verse 14, he says, "Because he is our high priest who passes through the heavens." Um, and this is gonna get into our content next week.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But, like, what does it mean for Jesus to be a high priest? What does it mean for him to offer a sacrifice?

David: Yeah.

Seth: But he's just assuming his audience at this point knows enough about high priests to get what he's saying. Moses was a type of priest, a type of person who interacted with God on God's people's behalf.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And he was trying to get them to enter the rest of God, the presence of God, that seventh day thing-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that God's been experiencing. He was unable to. Likewise, Jesus is a sim- similar type of priest, a similar type of leader, but because he is able to be a priest that Moses wasn't, because he was able to, as we'll see next week, offer a sacrifice and be the man that Moses couldn't be, he brings us into the rest that Moses never could.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We can finally, through Jesus' priesthood, experience the divine creative rest that God's been experiencing since the beginning of time.

David: Yeah, and I think it's important that, th- that the, the recipients of this letter could do that from anywhere because i- if they were going through some kind of exile, separation from the temple-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... from Jerusalem, from Israel-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's like for them that would be a really big deal to be taken away from the locale of God's presence.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: Or depending on when this was written, like, the temple's gonna be destroyed soon too.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so what happens when this place that Moses originally built as a tabernacle that's become a temple where God-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... was met, what happens when that experiences unrest?

Seth: Yeah.

David: When it is destroyed, well, God's saying-Yeah, Moses built the tabernacle-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... but I built the world.

Seth: Yep.

David: And my- and he was going to lead you into Israel, where you could have rest, but I have a worldwide kingdom of rest that you can enter into, meaning that no matter where you go, no matter what situation you find yourself in, a Sabbath rest remains e- for you, whether you're in Israel or Ephesus. It doesn't matter.

Seth: Yeah.

David: A Sabbath rest remains for you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Which I think is probably really important for-

Seth: Yes

David: ... a nomadic, exilic people-

Seth: Right

David: ... on the run.

Seth: Right, and so just like their forefathers who were nomadic and-

David: Exactly

Seth: ... exil- exilic in the wilderness, how did the next generation eventually enter?

David: Mm.

Seth: By believing that God was God, and that he would reward them for their obedience, and so they faithfully entered into one version of that rest, the caterpillar of that rest-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... when they finally entered-

David: So I think-

Seth: ... the Promised Land

David: ... as we close it down then, it's like I think we have to talk about, like, what does this mean for us today? How do we enter-

Seth: Yes

David: ... into God's rest?

Seth: Yes.

David: What does that seventh day rest look like for us, you know, where we are?

Seth: Mm.

David: So wh- I mean, how would you land the plane for-

Seth: Mm

David: ... people today who weren't necessarily looking to inherit a nation state or-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... get peace on every side through a political victory.

Seth: Yeah. I think I'm used to experience, uh, thinking about rest as, like, the cessation of activities.

David: Right, yeah.

Seth: So to think about rest as the establishment of, like, a kingdom order-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, as there, that a nation exists in the heavens that orchestrates life on earth perfectly and with justice in the end.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There is a rest and a security, um, in knowing that, that just cuts out all anxiety about my current political situation.

David: Right.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, oh, if I know God is in heaven, He's adjudicating justly in the end, and bad people are gonna rise up to power, but He's gonna take care of them, and He's gonna... They're gonna get what they deserve here on earth or in the end. It's gonna all work out.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I know He's doing this for my good in some sense, that He's making me identify with people of the past. He's bringing me to glory. He suffered alongside me like a son.

David: Mm. Yes.

Seth: I can breathe easy. I can rest even in persecution-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because I know that the kingdom is more powerful than my nation.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right? And I-

David: Right

Seth: ... and I think that's the rest.

David: That's really, really good. Yeah, and I think to add on to that, not to make a different point at all, but to add on to that, and that that rest has been happening since day seven of creation.

Seth: Yes.

David: It's not new.

Seth: Yes.

David: It is so well-established that it's been going since the beginning.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that, that is a firm kind of rest-

Seth: Right

David: ... that you can enter into.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's a rest that remains.

Seth: And how do you enter that rest? You enter that rest by believing that it's real, by b- trusting-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that Jesus has made it possible for us, and by acting like God does during His rest period.

David: Doing good.

Seth: By doing good.

David: Mm, that's good.

Seth: How does God spend His rest? Doing justice.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Doing mercy.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Healing the sick, raising them up out of pits.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Rest. What did He do on His rest day? He parted the Red Sea and freed a nation from slavery.

David: That's what God does when He's resting.

Seth: That's what God does when He's resting.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's what He's inviting us to do as well.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and so I think that's a fun... Fun's a weird word to use.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But, like, a powerful invitation for what it means to enter the rest that God has for us, and also, like, a powerful motivation when things are going poorly-

David: Right

Seth: ... and we're being persecuted for our faith. Suffer well, because what's God done in the past?

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's toppled nations-

David: That's right

Seth: ... when He's resting.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So what's He gonna do when you're resting?

David: That's too good. Okay. Well, that's Hebrews 1 to 4-ish.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 1 to 3.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, right to the top of five, basically.

David: Okay. Well, great. And then next week we'll talk about hi- like, priests and sacrifices.

Seth: And the order of Melchizedek.

David: Oh, yeah, that one.

Seth: Yeah, so get ready.

David: Oh, it's gonna be good. Well, thank you guys for joining us. It's been fun diving into Hebrews. We'll continue, uh, on our next episode with priests, sacrifices, Melchizedek. It'll be a blast, and I can't wait for it, but, uh, we'll see you all there. Thank you for joining us.

Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]

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Hebrews Overview: Why Jesus Is Better Than Angels and Moses

Show Notes

The Context of Hebrews: A Challenge to Persevere

Jesus Is Better Than the Angelic Messengers

The Necessity of a Human Savior

Jesus Is Better Than Moses

The Rest That Remains for God's People

Entering God's Rest Through Faith and Obedience

Related Resources

Introduction to Hebrews

View our devotional on Hebrews 1-2

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Hebrews Overview: Jesus is Better Than... Angels? podcast

Listen to the Hebrews Overview: Why Should I Care About Melchizedek? podcast

Listen to the Hebrews Overview: Stiff Warnings and a Hall of Fame podcast