Seth: [upbeat music] The idea that Jesus is always praying for me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... always speaking truth over me, speaking to God on my behalf right now every time I mess up in the moment, is great news that I don't think about often.
David: Yes.
Seth: That there's this ongoing job that Jesus has-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a high priest-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to ensure that I enter into a restful relationship with the divine sovereign.
Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about Him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in.
David: [upbeat music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our look at the Book of Hebrews today. Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I'm feeling pretty good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, for some reason, I feel more ready to talk about Melchizedek and the priesthood and why that matters to us than I was to talk about Moses.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, and I was like, "That feels weird." [laughs]
David: It's because everyone knows Moses, and so making... You know, like, you have a lot of categories people are already familiar with to deal with, maybe? Or-
Seth: May- maybe.
David: Any information you divulge about Melchizedek will feel unique. [laughs]
Seth: Will feel totally new. I'm just excited to talk about Melchizedek because not m- many times people don't engage with me on the topic of Melchizedek.
David: Do you just walk into coffee shops, you're like, "Hi, I'm Seth. Would you like to talk about Melchizedek?"
Seth: To- it doesn't go well. [laughs]
David: It doesn't go well. You really need a better opening line.
Seth: I mean, I d- my wife won't even talk to me about it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So, you know, it's like [laughs] I'm just really excited to be here with you guys.
David: "Seth, it's date night."
Seth: Da- date-
David: "I don't wanna talk about Melchizedek for the 90th time."
Seth: I've literally gotten that before. [laughs] Um-
David: Oh, and that's why you have this outlet. [laughs]
Seth: That's why I ha- that's why I started s- working at Sp- Spoken Gospel, so I could just have an outlet for all my opinions about things in the Bible.
David: Amazing. Okay. Uh, last week, let's kinda review.
Seth: Yes.
David: Last episode, we, we talked about how the audience of the Book of Hebrews is mainly Jewish, and they are feeling pressured to leave Jesus-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and following Jesus, and go back to the familiar terrain of their Old Testament Judaism.
Seth: Or even... Yes, that.
David: Yep, that or-
Seth: Or just to not believe in the whole thing any- anymore at all.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, they don't want to continue to live as holy people that-
David: It would-
Seth: ... look like Jesus because-
David: It would be easier to just give up.
Seth: It would just be easier to give up.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So the author is, is encouraging them, challenging them, rebuking them in two ways last episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He opened it up by saying that Jesus, this person that you've been called to follow, is better than the messengers of the Old Testament. He's better than the prophets. He's better than the angels that mediated by the right hand of God, the covenant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We talked about that. If you're like, "What are you talking about?" go back and listen [laughs] to the last episode.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And that Jesus i- is a better messenger because He became like us, knows what it's like to, to suffer and die like we suffer and die-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and be tempted like we're tempted. And so the message that He gives us is better because He knows what it's like to be like us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Whereas the o- the mediators-
Seth: No angel has ever become a human.
David: Right, the Old Testament-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... couldn't r- really do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And Jesus can. So, um, you have a better messenger b- by your side who is your brother and who is going to continue to guide you and help you persevere through-
Seth: Yes
David: ... h- this better message. And then he's also better than Moses-
Seth: Who tried to get God's people to enter into this new kingdom of rest-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but failed to. And he said, "I know you're worried that that rest no longer remains for you, but I promise you that it's still there and still available. So let's try to enter it in a way that our forefathers couldn't-
David: Right
Seth: ... when they, when they all died in the wilderness."
David: Yeah, and that's because it's, i- it's not the Old Testament kingdom of rest that was centralized in Israel, in Jerusalem. I- it is now this universal kingdom of rest that's presided over by God, that God's been resting in from the beginning-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... from day seven of creation, and he's saying that you can enter into this rest anywhere, no matter your circumstance, no matter who's persecuting you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because this, there's a rest that remains that God is offering you.
Seth: There's a rest that remains that is secured by the priesthood of Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: Which... Yeah, he hadn't even gives reasons why, uh, necessarily, like, the rest that Jesus was offering was necessarily better, though although you're pulling out all the reasons why.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The kingdom of God is better.
David: Right.
Seth: It's cre- it's from the creation of the world kinda situation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But now he's gonna explain how it happens-
David: Okay
Seth: ... instead.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he's like, "The re- the way that we get into that rest is because Jesus is our priest."
David: Okay. So that's really helpful.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: So then today we're gonna talk about entering into that eternal rest through this messenger, this better messenger-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who is now going to be proven to be a better priest-
Seth: Sa-
David: ... and a better sacrifice-
Seth: That's right
David: ... than you had before.
Seth: That's r- that's, that's exactly correct.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, so by the end of this, I should be able to say because of Jesus doing X, Y, Z, I can enter into this rest.
Seth: Yes, you should be able to say that.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: That is the goal.
David: Well, we're-
Seth: That is the goal-
David: We'll work towards that. Okay
Seth: ... to be able to say that.
David: Great.
Seth: Yes.
David: All right. Well, then kick us off. Where do we start?
Seth: So he starts off what an average Hebrew audience would've known about priests, and he says, "As you know, all high priests are appointed-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... by someone previous to them." Normally, the, uh, the previous high priest appoints the next high priest, and high priests are people who are sympathetic to the sins, the weaknesses of people. They pray for these people. They offer sacrifices for these people in hopes of-... repairing their relationship with God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... whenever it is broken.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we also know that just in the same way that priests were appointed by someone to do this task, so mediating between God and people, bringing God's people into the rest, Jesus has been appointed by God as well.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he quotes from, uh, verses he's already quoted, "You are my son. Today I've begotten you, and you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." So he's quoting from Psalm 110. [laughs]
David: Okay. So hold on.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: All right. So these are, these might have been things that his audience knew, but I'm, I'm playing catch-up here.
Seth: That's right.
David: So a priest wa- mediated between God and man.
Seth: And I think the best way to say it is, like, a priest would bring one of God's people into God's rest.
David: Mm.
Seth: Those are the categories that we've set up before.
David: I see.
Seth: And that rest is his kingdom of justice, it's pardon from the divine sovereign.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It is entering into that rest, to use the same language we've been using before.
David: Yes, okay. And then you talked about how you had these, like, this high priest-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and then he would appoint the next high priest, like maybe when he was close to death or something like that. Or did they retire out, or?
Seth: Yes. The high priest's order-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the Bible-
David: Yep
Seth: ... was all based on genealogy. You had to be from the line of Levi-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... and you served, and any member of the tribe of Levi could be a, a priest, but only certain people were the high priest.
David: Yep.
Seth: And when that high priest was near his death, a new high priest would be appointed from the tribe of Levi.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's how it worked.
David: And so there was, there was a qualification that you had to have-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to have this role, and it was based on your lineage.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. W- uh, why is that important? Like, why have-
Seth: Oh
David: ... a lineage-based priesthood?
Seth: That is just what God established in the Old Testament.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he's assuming that knowledge of his audience. Like, okay, you guys know what a priest is. You know that they're from the tribe of Levi. You know that, uh, they serve and then they're succeeded, and that they are appointed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Now, I wanna prove to you that Jesus is a better high priest-
David: Mm
Seth: ... than the ones you've experienced under Levi. He too, like all priests beforehand, was appointed by God. God said, "You are my son." That's an a- that's an appointing, and son can mean king, it can mean priest, it can mean, like, a divine title.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he's quoting, uh, from Psalm 110 there. And then in the very next verse in Psalm 110, he says, "And I have appointed you as a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."
David: Hmm.
Seth: And so the idea is he's like, uh, all priests are appointed. The Levites were appointed. Jesus was appointed.
David: Yep.
Seth: They were appointed by the order of Levi or into the order of Levi, but Jesus was sworn into the order of a little lesser-known priesthood called the order of Melchizedek.
David: Okay. And he was sworn in, appointed forever, which-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that seems to be something you couldn't normally do with a priest.
Seth: He, yes.
David: Because they-
Seth: Most certainly not
David: ... they would die, and-
Seth: He is-
David: ... couldn't be priests anymore
Seth: ... going to pick up on that extensively-
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: ... uh, throughout the rest of chapter seven, eight, and nine. [laughs]
David: Okay. So having a priest forever is a category in itself, but then you have these competing priestly lines.
Seth: Yep.
David: You have the line of Levi that Israel's priests have always come from.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then you have this other lesser-known, as you said, order of Melchizedek. So I think it might be helpful to know where both of these came from-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... in the Old Testament. And-
Seth: So what's really funny about this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that he says all that, and he also goes on to say that how Jesus offered prayers like the priesthoods beforehand and how Jesus suffered like previous priests. He's making all these comparisons between priests that the Hebrew audience would know.
David: Okay, so he's like, "Jesus is like a priest. See?"
Seth: Right, but he's just from a different order of Melchizedek.
David: Okay.
Seth: And what's really funny is that he kinda pauses the argument-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in verse 11.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Chapter six, verse 11, he says... Or five, verse 11. And he says, "You know, I've actually wanted to talk to you for this, about this for a long time, but I'm gonna pause for a second because you've been too immature to handle this for a long time now." And-
David: "I've been wanting to do this deep dive with you-
Seth: And then-
David: "... but you guys are shallow."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] That's exactly what he does.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he spends a, about a, an entire chapter challenging them to remain faithful to the basics of the faith. And as I said in the last episode, we're gonna take all these challenge and warning passages together in a third episode. So just for, know for now that he's like, "I wanna talk to you about this for now, but let me, we've got some business to do about some more basic situations."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He does that for a whole chapter-
David: I see
Seth: ... and then jumps back into the Melchizedek thing in chapter seven.
David: Okay. So there was a moment in the last episode where we stopped and said, "Here's a warning passage. We're gonna skip over it now to stay focused on what was Moses." Now the same thing's happening, he's talking-
Seth: That's right
David: ... about Melchizedek, stops at-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... a warning passage, and then, and then continues. We're gonna talk about both of those-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in the next episode.
Seth: And it might be helpful just to have in your mind that the way that he's structuring his argument, he kind of has, like, he's talking about how Jesus is better than angels, and there's a warning passage included in that idea. He, he's talking about how Jesus is better than Moses, and he includes a warning passage.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's like, "Okay, because he's better than Moses, I'm challenging you to trust him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because he's better than, I'm challenging you to trust him. Jesus is better than Levi. He's, uh, from the order of Melchizedek, so I'm challenging you to trust him." He's doing that every single time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... he introduces them to a new way in which Jesus is better.
David: I see. And that keeps the thread of the book tight, which is, "I've written this to you s-
Seth: Mm
David: ... to challenge you-
Seth: That's right
David: ... to persevere, to remain faithful.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: And so basically, he's like, "Okay, I've wanna talk to you about this for a long time, and I know you don't know anything about it because you're too basic, so let me start at the beginning." [laughs] And then he literally goes back and explains the story of, of Melchizedek from the Book of Genesis for the benefit of his audience, and we all said, "Praise God."
David: Yeah, because, uh, we needed to.
Seth: [sighs] Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So in the Bible.
David: In the Bible. I know that book.
Seth: Back in the day, Abraham-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... his, uh, what, Lot. Was that his-
David: Lot
Seth: Nephew. Nephew.
David: His nephew.
Seth: His nephew. That's what I was wa-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I was like, "I think it's his nephew." Yeah, it's his nephew, was captured by a coalition of enemy kings.
David: Yes.
Seth: So Abraham goes on a rescue mission to rescue his nep- nephew, Lot, and he isProfoundly successful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Rescues his brother, or his nephew, sorry.
David: Gets, gets all the booty.
Seth: He gets all, and he just collects a ton of plunder.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he is celebrating with his men and feasting.
David: Yep.
Seth: And while he's feasting, a man shows up named Melchizedek, and we're told he's a fellow king and a priest of God Most High. Now, what do we know about priests in the Hebrew Bible, Hebrew Bible reader?
David: Uh, I, I don't know. I know a lot about it 'cause I'm a Hebrew reader.
Seth: Uh, you're, you know that the only people that are priests in the Hebrew Bible are Levites.
David: Are Levites, yeah.
Seth: Right, you totally knew that.
David: Well, who's, who's this Melchizedek guy?
Seth: Who's this Melchizedek guy?
David: What gives him the right to be a priest? I, I'm a Hebrew reader.
Seth: And what's interesting about this story, Hebrew reader, is that Moses ... Or sorry, Moses, Abraham-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... gives this man, Melchizedek, this priest, 10% of his plunder.
David: Mm. Good tither.
Seth: He's a good tither. And what, and the reason that's significant is in the Old Testament-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the only people who were, um, entitled to 10% of something-
David: Were priests
Seth: ... were priests.
David: Yes.
Seth: So Abraham is treating this man-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way God's people have treated the priesthood, uh, for its entire nation, but Abraham is around before Israel's a nation.
David: Right. So this is, like, the father of Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... giving the first priestly offering to a different order of priests than Israel would typically use.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then he brings up this interesting detail about Melchizedek.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He, he says, "He doesn't have a father or a mother."
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Uh, he-
David: So usually when you meet somebody it's like, so and so, the f- son of blank, and he-
Seth: That's right
David: ... lived until this time and died at this age or something.
Seth: That's right. In the Bible, when new characters are introduced, you get a genealogy of some sort.
David: Yep.
Seth: But when Melchizedek shows up on the scene, he's given no genealogy, he's given no father or mother, and we're not even told that he dies.
David: Yep.
Seth: And the author of Hebrews picks up on this.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he says, "So doesn't that imply that, and doesn't that resemble the priesthood of Jesus, who lives forever?"
David: Right.
Seth: Narratively, literarily, in the Book of Genesis, when this priest shows up, he has no genealogy and no death date. He's this priestly figure that presumably is, uh, considered a priest rightly by Abraham.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But he's eternal in some sense. Like, narratively eternal. There's no genealogy. He lives forever.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He disappears and appears in the story at whim.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: He's like ... And so your Hebrew reader's like, "Yeah, okay. What am I saying yes to?" You feel that, like-
David: Oh, yeah, totally
Seth: ... you're like, "Like, what corner are you painting me into now?"
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Um-
David: So you have this king of peace who is treated as a priest of God before the priesthood of Israel was formally established.
Seth: That's right.
David: And the patriarch, the Hebrew of all Hebrews-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... recognizes him as such-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and gives his priestly offering to him.
Seth: Yes. And significantly, this priest-
David: Yes
Seth: ... lives forever in air quotes.
David: Lives, right, right, right, right.
Seth: In air quotes, yeah.
David: So, so this priest came first. He was ma- he, he was given an offering by Abraham the patriarch.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: He is not only a priest, but a king.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it seems like he lives forever.
Seth: Yes.
David: Whereas the Levites came later-
Seth: Yep
David: ... were never given offerings by Abraham-
Seth: Yep
David: ... uh, had died all the time and had to be replaced.
Seth: Yep.
David: And something else. I don't know.
Seth: You are laying out the argument-
David: Okay, all right
Seth: ... where you are going down the road-
David: Okay
Seth: ... he wants you to go down, yes.
David: Okay. I mean, I'm a Hebrew re- reader.
Seth: Yep.
David: I'm skeptical of you.
Seth: I'm skeptical of what you're saying over here. And so he continues speaking to this Hebrew reader.
David: Okay.
Seth: He's like, "We all know that you only give tenths like that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to priests."
David: Priests.
Seth: "Or to your betters. Like, you don't give a tenth of something-
David: To your-
Seth: J-
David: ... lessers.
Seth: Right, to just anyone.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? And so it kind of admits the fact that Abraham saw this king-
David: Mm
Seth: ... 'cause Abraham was a king, too.
David: Yes, but he saw him as a superior king.
Seth: Right. And so he's giving him willingly-
David: Wow
Seth: ... 10% of his pl- plunder.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he considers this as a, a greater priest and a greater king than he was, right?
David: Uh-huh, yes.
Seth: So shouldn't we accord him the same honor that our forefather Abraham gave to this priest/king?
David: Yes.
Seth: Shouldn't we afford him this greater honor and superiority?
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes.
Seth: So yes. [laughs]
David: Yes, okay.
Seth: All right, get it. [laughs]
David: How are you ... But what are you gonna do with this loaded gun?
Seth: Well, what I'm gonna do with this loaded gun is-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... what I should also say is not only our forefather Abraham-
David: Yes
Seth: ... considered this priest and king superior to himself. You could also say that in a sense Levi, the, the, the progenitor of our entire priesthood-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... considered him a superior priest because-
David: Because he came from Abraham
Seth: ... because he came from Abraham, and the, the text is very explicit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He was still in the loins of his ancestor. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: So Levi was still a potential son living inside of Abraham, and by virtue of his father's, uh-
David: Yep
Seth: ... kingship, headship, however you wanna say that, Levi admitted to the superiority of a different priestly order than the one that would be the norm-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for all Hebrew people throughout the rest of history.
David: Yep. I got it.
Seth: So that's the argument he's making. [laughs]
David: Okay, so he's, he's made the point-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that Melchizedek is of a higher order of priest than Levi.
Seth: And Abraham-
David: And that Abraham recognized it-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and therefore we should too.
Seth: Yep. And in a sense, Levi recognized it, and therefore we should too.
David: Right.
Seth: And now he's gonna switch tactics and say, "Okay, now that I've established that Melchizedek is of a higher order-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... let me show you the insufficiency of the Levitical order-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and what it was able to do for us."
David: Before, before we do that-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... I have a question.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How is Jesus of Melchizedek when he doesn't come from his genealogy?
Seth: Aha. We'll get there.
David: Oh, we'll get there?
Seth: We'll get there.
David: Okay.
Seth: I mean, in one sense, it's a, I mean, we ... To give you the information we already have-
David: Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... said in a different way, one, he's p- appointedHe was sworn into the order of Melk-
David: Kind of like, uh, you could be knighted in, a, a knight in the realm of blank-
Seth: Right
David: ... in England or something.
Seth: He was sworn into that order by God according to Psalm 110.
David: I see. Kind of like you would be sworn into the office of, uh, uh, like a, like a judge or something.
Seth: Yep, that's right.
David: And it's like you weren't there, you weren't the next, the last judge's son-
Seth: Yes
David: ... but you've received their title because you've been appointed to that title.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. I get that.
Seth: And, a- and importantly, you could only be sworn into the tribe of Levi if you were born a Levite.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So Jesus not being born a Levite can't-
David: Right
Seth: ... ascend to that order of priesthood.
David: Right.
Seth: So he has to be, to ascend-
David: Of a different order of priests
Seth: ... of a different or- order.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so what qualified you to enter into-
David: I see
Seth: ... the Levitical order was being a Levi.
David: Ah.
Seth: And now you're, he's being sworn into this new order, and the information we've been given so far is it seems to be based on an eternal life.
David: Yes. That-
Seth: Uh
David: ... Jesus didn't have a beginning.
Seth: Je- like, and Melchizedek doesn't have a beginning or end.
David: Yes. Okay.
Seth: And so that's all the information we've been given so far.
David: That's helpful. And if I could just, if I was, if it was possible to back up and say this at the beginning-
Seth: Yes
David: ... this is helpful because we ended the last episode, and, you know, this last section of text was, "A Sabbath rest remains. Come and enter my eternal rest."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you're saying that priests help bring people into the rest of God.
Seth: Yep.
David: Well, then, if Jesus is the one who is supposed to be better than Moses and is supposed to bring us into rest-
Seth: That's right
David: ... how can he if he's not a priest?
Seth: That's right.
David: Because he's not from the order of Levi.
Seth: Yes.
David: I win, Hebrew reader, checkmate, author of Hebrews.
Seth: That's perfect, yes.
David: I win, and you're like, "Aha!"
Seth: That's exactly-
David: But actually he's, he is a priest and a better one than Levi.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's helping me-
Seth: That's super helpful
David: ... map out.
Seth: That's helpful for me a lot.
David: Logic.
Seth: Oh, yes, that's the way it works.
David: [laughs] Okay.
Seth: Okay, great.
David: All right.
Seth: So he's established why Melchizedek is of a hi- is a higher priestly order-
David: Higher order, yep
Seth: ... than the order of Levi.
David: Okay.
Seth: And now he's gonna talk about the way that the Levitical order was never everything God hoped it could be.
David: Okay. So not only, like, w- where the priesthood came from, but then how the priesthood functions.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: So he said, "If perfection could've been attained through the Levitical priesthood"
David: We would've kept it around?
Seth: We would've kept it around, right?
David: Right, yep. 'Cause we, it would've been perfect, and we would've been there.
Seth: And God would never have placed in his scripture another priestly order.
David: Oh, right, especially one that Abraham would, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, acknowledge.
Seth: Acknowledge it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's like the fa- the mere fact that there are two priestly orders in scripture implies the fact that one might overtake the other.
David: There's always been this tension.
Seth: There's always been this tension.
David: And, and, and David himself, you know, he says, "You're a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."
Seth: That's right.
David: It's like he's still thinking about it.
Seth: Yeah. He, yeah, that's, yes.
David: And so there was this tension going on, like maybe the Levitical line would be superseded at some point by this eternal priesthood that Abraham knelt to-
Seth: That's right
David: ... Melchizedek.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. I've never thought about that as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like this ongoing tension of two priests, rival priests, which one's gonna win?
Seth: Right.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: And as we've already said, Jesus isn't from the order of Levi.
David: Right.
Seth: So-
David: So maybe he's of this other one.
Seth: Right. So maybe he can be part of this other one. And then he gives us basically the answer you were looking for just a second ago.
David: Oh, good.
Seth: So, so what qualifies Jesus then to ascend into the order of Melchizedek since he can't ascend by geneal- by virtue of his genealogy into the order of Levi.
David: Yes.
Seth: Verse 15.
David: Of chapter...
Seth: Uh, of chapter 7. Uh, let's-
David: Seven?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, actually, let's start in verse 16 of chapter 7.
David: Okay.
Seth: "He has become a priest, not on the legal requirements concerning bodily descent-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but on the power of an indestructible life."
David: Hmm.
Seth: Again, what did David say? He re-quotes it. "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." So what he's doing with this text is, like, what you thought was just descriptive or hopeful is actually the qualification for that priesthood.
David: Hmm.
Seth: In order to be a priest forever, you need to be a priest forever.
David: In order to be of the eternal priesthood, you need to be eternal.
Seth: You need to be eternal.
David: Oh.
Seth: You need to exist forever.
David: You need to have exemplified indestructible life.
Seth: Yes.
David: What a qualification.
Seth: Right.
David: I'd hate to see that on a job application.
Seth: Right. And Melchizedek qualifies because he has no genealogy in scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: And so Jesus, though, has risen from the dead.
David: Yep.
Seth: So doesn't that mean that he would be-
David: He would qualify for that office
Seth: ... qualify for the office of high priest?
David: He's proven that his life is indestructible.
Seth: That's right.
David: Therefore, who needs the old version of genealogical reproduction to qualify for a lesser priesthood when-
Seth: That's right
David: ... you've proven that you're beyond that-
Seth: Right
David: ... in that you don't die anymore.
Seth: We know that nobody became perfect through the Levitical priesthood.
David: Right.
Seth: We've known, we've been waiting for a Melchizedekian priest.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And we maybe wouldn't have said it this way, but we, we know that it has to be based on the power of an indestructible life. That's what qualifies somebody to be a Melchizedekian priest.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Jesus has done it, which means that the possibility of perfection is now open to us.
David: Yes.
Seth: The possibility of being mature into the type of people God wants us to be-
David: Yes
Seth: ... people-
David: Entering into that actual rest
Seth: ... is actually possible because Jesus is now qualified to do so.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like by, by your own logic, Hebrew reader-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you must admit this.
David: You've trapped me.
Seth: You've tra- [laughs] right.
David: Darn you.
Seth: Um, he goes on to say how this was also sworn, like God oathed this.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He, it, later on in Psalm 110, um, or actually just before this in Psalm 110, Psalm 110 says, "The Lord has sworn this, and he will not change his mind. You are a priest forever after the or- order-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of Melchizedek." And his only point is here is like did God ever swear that the Levitical priesthood would last forever?
David: Oh, yeah, sure.
Seth: He never did.
David: Wow.
Seth: It's, and it's, he only ever swore a, an eternal priesthood after one line. That's Melchizedek.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So obviously the Levitical priesthood-
David: Had to pass away
Seth: ... had to pass away.
David: 'Cause there can only be one.
Seth: There can only be one that lasts forever.
David: And God swore that the eternal one would last forever, therefore-
Seth: And it would, it would be this one
David: ... it, the Levitical one has to pass away.
Seth: Right, because he, he, God said the, the Melchizedekian one was the one that's gonna last forever.
David: I mean, let's just be honest here. The author of Hebrews was dropping bombs.
Seth: He, I mean, [laughs] he is speaking to the Hebrew audience on their own terms extremely well.
David: It's just like, uh-This had to be a really hard letter to read as a Hebrew.
Seth: If you-
David: I mean, it's very hard for me to read as a Hebrew
Seth: ... I mean, I think it would be hard if you didn't already believe in Jesus the Messiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you had... But if you were a normal churchgoer, uh-
David: Synagogue goer
Seth: ... synagogue goer who had accepted Jesus Messiah, but push has come to shove, you're suffering, you're persecuting, faith has become hard. You've been a believer now in the Messiah for five, six, seven years, you've forgotten all these Bible verses. How many people have really reminded you this frequently that Jesus is the fulfillment and the only way in which the Hebrew Bible can be fulfilled? Probably not often.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Right.
Seth: It's like we, we, we... I don't get every sermon I need at the exact right moment in my time, right-
David: Totally
Seth: ... in my life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's like, I think that's kind of functional like that too, not just as a polemic against those that refuse to believe, but as an encouragement to those who have forgotten.
David: Yeah. It's true. It's kind of like those times that you and I, and probably a lot of our listeners have had, um, where you hear something that you've never heard before and it completely redefines-
Seth: Yes
David: ... everything you thought you knew about that thing in the Bible.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? Like, for me it was like, uh, the tabernacle thing where-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... Jesus tabernacled among us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And that he was the temple incarnate, and God is-
Seth: It's like, I've heard that so many times, but it never hit me.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, it didn't disrupt my faith.
Seth: Right.
David: It encouraged it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But it changed all my categories.
Seth: Right.
David: That kind of feels like what he's doing here. He's just dropping-
Seth: That's right
David: ... bombs. It's like, oh my gosh.
Seth: Right. And what's... And I think the reason why we should lean into this, like, this challenge, this encouragement, because in all the warnings that we've been skipping over-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... there's some really intense things in them that make-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... it sound like you're never gonna get your faith back. And if you're familiar-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... with the book of Hebrews-
David: You know what I'm talking about, yep
Seth: ... you'll know that. Uh, but what's interesting, at the end of all those warnings, he almost con- every time says, "But I'm confident of different things for you."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "I know that's not you. I've seen your faith work out this way." So he knows his audience believes in the Messiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They've just forgotten all the reasons they have that it's true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: So then according with that then, the reason why it's so good to have a higher order and an eternal priesthood rather than a lower order and a temporary priesthood is that you have somebody who is indestructible, who-
Seth: Yes
David: ... can bring you into God's rest better than any priest ever could.
Seth: Yeah. His eternal rest that he's been experiencing since day seven of creation.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like it's-
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: Yes. And then he moves on to kind of a new phase of this argument. It's like I've established that the Melchizedekian order is superior.
David: Yep.
Seth: I've exposed some of the weaknesses of the Levitical order. I've shown you how Jesus is qualified to take, be sworn into the order of Melchizedek, and I wanna also show you that Jesus guarantees a better covenant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or a better agreement between God and humanity. Or another way to say it, how Jesus guarantees entrance into that final eternal rest that Moses was never able to bring his people into.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: And he says this in verse 23, "There were actually lots of priests beforehand," right? Bec- why? Because they all died. High priest died.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: New high priest took his place.
David: Yeah.
Seth: High priest died, new high priest took his place.
David: Right.
Seth: There are a whole bunch of the others, but Jesus, because his priesthood is based on the power of an indestructible life, is a priesthood permanently.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he continues forever, meaning that he is always in a position to bring you into the rest of God, and that is never interrupted-
David: Oh
Seth: ... by his own death.
David: I see. Because in a sense, the covenant that the Levitical priests intermediated-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... was always under threat of their own death.
Seth: Yep.
David: That, what if the high priest died-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and could no longer in-intermediate for me, or what if he was a terrible high priest, which definitely happened-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... throughout [laughs] the Old Testament-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and was just bad at intermediating for me. But now we have a better high priest from a better order who lives forever, therefore I always have an intermediary.
Seth: Right. There, there at various times throughout the Old Covenant could be a lag time between our sin and the experience of God's forgiveness.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: There could be lag between the death of the high priest, the appointing of another one, and what happens to all the sacrifices that are supposed to be made during that time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What happens to Israel, God's people's ability to enter into the rest of God? It's up in the air.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But if we have a priest that never dies-
David: Right
Seth: ... who lives forever-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that up in the airness no longer obtains.
David: Right.
Seth: It's something concrete. It's something secure. And then he goes on to say this. So that means, consequently, verse 25, Jesus is able to save us to the uttermost, or to completely, or perfectly, because he always lives to make intercession or to pray for us.
David: Ah, there it is.
Seth: And so what's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I love about this is that not only would there be an up in the airness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but the job of the high priest was to sympathize with his people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and to continually pray to God on behalf of his people, right? And that's the way that he-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... defines a priest back in chapter five.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He would make intercession for his people. And every time a high priest died, prayers for God's people stopped-
David: Right
Seth: ... for a period of time until a new high priest could take his place.
David: Yeah. And they were human. Like, they were m- and they, they were... I'm just, like, trying to think about, like, how they were of a lower order-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... too, where I just... If my sense of rest was hung up on how effectively a priest was praying for me, I think I would-
Seth: Right
David: ... not feel rest very often. [laughs]
Seth: Right. Uh, y- yes. So he... Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Whereas, like, now that I know that it's the eternal, indestructible pr-Always interceding Jesus who is doing that work-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that brings me a lot of, lot different rest [chuckles]-
Seth: That's right
David: ... I feel like I would've had.
Seth: And what's... And he goes on to say this, he says, one thing that human high priests had to do, L- Levitical high priests-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... had to do, is they also had to make sacrifices for their own sin.
David: Right. They weren't perfect.
Seth: So at some point, they had to stop offering sacrifice on your behalf-
David: For you, to do it for themself
Seth: ... to do it for themselves.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Levitical priesthood was always, like, interrupted, like, your ability to enter God's rest and be forgiven by God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to have access to him was constantly interrupted by both death and sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right?
David: Right, the death of the high priest and their own sin.
Seth: But because Jesus is-
David: Yes
Seth: ... perfect-
David: Yes
Seth: ... sinless, spotless, stainless, and lives forever-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there is never any lag time between your sin and God's forgiveness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's no interruption in God's ability to pray for you and bring God's rest near-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to you when you're suffering.
David: Yeah. And I think the intercession of Jesus is a not, not, is just not talked about very regularly.
Seth: No. I had this really, like, strong category, like, the forensic thing that Jesus did on the cross.
David: Right.
Seth: At one time, as a high priest, he offered himself as a sacrifice. He d- he took away all my sins at that time, done and dusted. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's in the past.
David: Yep, and then that is applied forward to every sin I have committed or will commit.
Seth: Right.
David: And in a sense, that's true.
Seth: And, yeah, totally true. He's not d- he's not-
David: There's not, nothing is denying that. But there is this-
Seth: Relational quality-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to a high priest.
David: Where Jesus is now, um, applying in his intercession what his cross accomplished.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So the cross accomplished our salvation, and then Jesus always lives to make intercession to apply what he accomplished-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in the past. So he applies in the present, through his intercession, what he accomplished-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the past, through his crucifixion.
Seth: He's able to save completely.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's like, that, that term, that completeness means that Jesus is always praying for us, actively-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... engaging with us, reminding us and God of what was accomplished on the cross, and making sure that we live in God's rest and in His kingdom, permanently, uninterrupted by either our sin, his sin, or death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which is always happening.
David: Which is really important, 'cause I think that, a- again, I don't wanna make it sound like I'm trying to debunk this "It is finished" moment on the cross. That is-
Seth: No, no, no
David: ... obviously crucial to everything we believe. But-
Seth: That's just not what Hebrews is talking about right now
David: ... yeah, Hebrews is emphasizing something different, and I think we should hold it well-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in that when I sin, the, the only ammunition I had against my guilt, condemnation, shame, and then the only, like, fuel I had for persevering, trying again, was, uh, Jesus died for it. It is done. I can hold on that, you know, to the fact that when he died for that sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he paid for this thing that I did.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, and that's good, that it's finished-
Seth: Right
David: ... the work is done.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But there's this other side of that equation where Jesus is living right now at the right hand of God, actively interceding for this specific thing. And going back to the first couple chapters of Hebrews, he knows what it was like to be tempted-
Seth: That's right
David: ... by this thing, to, to, like, b- be a frail human, and he's able to sympathize with, like, with me, and intercede for me to God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in a way that no priest ever could.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's applying what he accomplished to me in the moment-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in real time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's forgiving me right now.
Seth: Right.
David: Again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that just feels fresh to me in a really cool way.
Seth: Yeah, the idea that Jesus is always praying for me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... always speaking truth over me, speaking to God on my behalf right now, every time I mess up in the moment, is great news that I don't think about often.
David: Yes.
Seth: That there's this ongoing job that Jesus has-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a high priest-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to ensure that I enter into a restful relationship with the divine sovereign of the universe.
David: Yeah, because... And if we don't stop to think about this, I think we do rob the power of the Melchizedekian priest [chuckles], you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Of his power. Because if you think about it, some Israelites might have only had one time a year where they made a sacrifice or had a sacrifice made for them. You know, it might have been-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Day of Atonement or something, and they look back at it, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, well, I hope that paid for it," or, "I'll look forward to the next-
Seth: Right
David: ... Day of Atonement." And they didn't have that real time sense of-
Seth: Right
David: ... intercession that we have. And so it's like we almost are robbing-
Seth: Well-
David: ... ourselves of this new and better covenant when we don't.
Seth: And what's interesting, actually, I think you're right to start talking about the sacrifice, 'cause that's exactly where he goes next.
David: Okay, yeah.
Seth: But what's interesting here is he's front-loaded this conversation about the ongoing ministry of the priests. Priests pray for their people. That's what chapter five says, and we're saying Jesus prays for his people.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's good news that Jesus prays for his people, is constantly before God on their behalf, inviting them back into that rest.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? And we have a high priest who's willing to do that for us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Now, the next argument is, now what else do the high priests do?
David: They make sacrifices.
Seth: They make sacrifices.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I think it's interesting 'cause we keep talking about, so what's the difference between, like, Jesus accomplished something in the past-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he's doing something right now in heaven.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the author's pointing that same thing out in just the reverse order.
David: Right.
Seth: He focuses first on, let's talk about that ongoing relational reality of the priest.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You knew there was a priest praying for you. You knew he could sympathize with you. He was a man like you were, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he knew who you were. You were part of his community. He was praying for you on your behalf. And once a year, he would offer sacrifice, but right now we're just talking about that relational thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you had s- you had security there. But what happened? He would die.
David: Right. And he had another year.
Seth: He had to be replaced. He had to offer sacrifice for his own sins.
David: Right.
Seth: He would be... He wouldn't always, wasn't always praying for you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Jesus is not like that.
David: Right.
Seth: We have a high priest who's better.
David: Mm, yeah.
Seth: Eternally doing that for you.
David: That's good. So that's how he's a better interceder and prayer.
Seth: That's right.
David: And then he's, now he's gonna move on to how he offers a better or different sacrifice.
Seth: That's exactly right. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so let's jump in then to these new sacrifices and the old sacrifices and why the old sacrifices aren't as good as the new sacrifice. And, uh, you know, we're just doing this thing again where Jesus is better than this old thing, and I'm just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you just gotta tee it off here. So he's- Jesus is a better interceder-
Seth: Yes
David: ... prayer, and from a better order-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of priest, but now he's also offering better sacrifices or something.
Seth: Yeah. I think at this point it's probably a good idea to step back-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and talk about what the temple was and what a priest's role was in the temple-
David: Okay
Seth: ... period.
David: 'Cause that's where sacrifices took place.
Seth: That's where sacrifices took place, and if you don't have some of that background knowledge, this is gonna feel, start feeling pretty fuzzy-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to us.
David: All right. We'll take, we'll step back.
Seth: Um, and we also have to talk about covenants because covenants-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... are also involved-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in, in all this stuff.
David: Here we go. Big step back.
Seth: Whenever God came to Moses on Mount Sinai and gave him that set of laws written by angels-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in it was a set of instructions for a tabernacle.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: This is where God's presence would live, and it's where priests would work and give God's people the ability to enter into that rest in a, in a, i- in a, uh, lessened way that Go- Jesus would ul- ultimately do it Himself. Right?
David: Yeah. The caterpillar versus the butterfly.
Seth: The caterpillar versus the butterfly. Um, and the temple itself was a model of the universe. Um-
David: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... this, and this is r- this is, sounds so crazy, but it's really, really important. The temple was set up the same way that God created the world. You have the world on which humans live-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which is like the outer court of the temple. It's where people funneled in to come and visit God's presence, right?
David: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Seth: Uh, then you had this special space, uh, that had these candles and these lamp stands and these different things in it where only people from the tribe of Levi could be.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They were decorated in these d- bright gold elements and jewels, and this is... They lived in this space between God's people and between the burning center of God's holiness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And in the creation story you had Earth where people lived, and then you had the stars in the sky, the heavens, and this heavenly realm is replicated in this second court-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in, in the temple. And the reason I mention lamp stands is because there's lights in the sky.
David: Yep.
Seth: There are seven lamps in the temple or the tabernacle because there are seven lights in the sky visible to the human eye that are significant. The Earth, the moon, and five of our planets.
David: Mm.
Seth: So there's seven lamp stands to model the universe.
David: Right.
Seth: The priests are covered in gold and jewels because they're like the stars-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the sky.
David: Shine like the stars.
Seth: The whole space is decorated in blue and purple and scarlet to represent sunrises and sunsets-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the inky black of space.
David: Yep.
Seth: The only Levites could live in this world.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then beyond that was the Holy of Holies where God's presence lived.
David: Yep.
Seth: And only one of those people could go in there at one time and make atonement for all God's people.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: And it was covered in cloud.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So even the person there could-
David: Couldn't see what was going on
Seth: ... couldn't see what was going on.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because after the Earth and beyond the heavens-
David: There was what? We don't know
Seth: ... blue. I remember watching as a kid Star Trek: Voyager.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Did you watch Star Trek: Voyager?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Oh, I loved it, and there was one episode where they hit, like, warp 11. Like, the technology doesn't allow them to do that, and they do it as an experiment and they end up past the edge of the universe.
David: Oh.
Seth: And do you know what it looks like?
David: No, I don't remember this.
Seth: Clouds.
David: Oh.
Seth: And giant nebula. What's beyond what's known?
David: They don't know.
Seth: We don't know.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the temple was meant to m- mirror that.
David: Yes. Right. Yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, 'cause you have... Okay, so let me recap.
Seth: Yes.
David: So you have the creation of the world. You have Earth where people live. You have-
Seth: Yep
David: ... the heavens where the stars live.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you have the heaven of the heavens where God lives.
Seth: Yes.
David: To replicate that or mirror that, you were given the tabernacle.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And you had the outer court to represent the Earth where people live.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The inner court to represent the heavens where the Levites could go, and then the Holy of Holies, which-
Seth: Yes
David: ... is the heaven of heavens where God lives.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it's important to realize this is in some ways a broken model of the universe.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because in the Garden of Eden, there was an Earth, there were the heavens, and there was God.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it was permeable. God-
David: Yeah, you could pass from one through the other? Is that what you're saying?
Seth: Yeah, God could come to Earth-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and walk with his people.
David: Right.
Seth: The rest of God was available on creation-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because the barriers between God, the heavens, and the Earth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... were passable-
David: Yes
Seth: ... by God.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right? The-
David: There was this overlap-
Seth: Yep
David: ... permeable space between heaven and Earth-
Seth: And that-
David: ... that, that was separated out through the fall.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that separation is, is replicated in this broken model-
Seth: Yes
David: ... of the temple.
Seth: Right, and now instead of all people or God being able to just come straight out into the Earth-
David: Yep
Seth: ... into all of Israel, there's a system of priests, stars-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that block access for a period of time.
David: Right.
Seth: And then there's another curtain, the veil, that blocks God. That only one man can go through-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that blocks God from the rest of the people.
David: Yep, and that, and that too is a picture of the fallen creation.
Seth: That's right.
David: Because you had the, the world east of Eden where the rest of the world lived. You had the land right outside of Eden where Adam-
Seth: Oh, yes
David: ... Eve, and his, his-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... sons lived for a little while afterwards. And then you had the garden entrance, which was guarded by cherubim with flaming swords.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and that's the Holy of Holies.
Seth: That's the Ho- that's where God's presence was.
David: Yeah, and that's why in the Holy of Holies where God's throne was, you had a picture of a cherubim-
Seth: Yes
David: ... because it was this picture of-
Seth: So-
David: ... the gateway to Eden
Seth: ... let me s- af- with all that information-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... let me say it a different way. The universe is a temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: Earth is where humans live.
David: Yep.
Seth: The heavens is this barrier between us and the presence and the, the noble greatness of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: Yep.
Seth: The universe is a temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: And Israel was given a version of that universe in their temple ith barriers in it to show them that things were not as they ought to be.
David: Yep.
Seth: But there was a way through blood-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to make the world permeable once again.
David: Yes.
Seth: And God's eternal rest could leak out into God's, God's land.
David: Yep.
Seth: Right?
David: Yes. It ma- the temple made a way for God to live with man again.
Seth: Right.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay. That is all the background [laughs] I wanted to set up before we move forward.
David: Great.
Seth: Because that's really important to understand.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That the w- the universe is a temple.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the temple is a model of the universe.
David: Yep.
Seth: Okay.
David: Good.
Seth: Great.
David: Yes.
Seth: I hope that, that is wor- was worth the squeeze [laughs] here in a second here.
David: We'll find out.
Seth: Uh-
David: If not, you now know more about the temple than you did-
Seth: You now know more about the temple than you did before. So we have a high priest in Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: And this high priest, uh, like all other high priests, offers sacrifices. But if Jesus was gonna offer a sacrifice, where would he offer it, David, good Hebrew reader?
David: I mean, he'd have to go to the temple.
Seth: Wrong, David.
David: Why?
Seth: Because the Levitical order prescribed sacrifices in the temple.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: An eternal priest has never been prescribed sacrifices anywhere.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: In fact, if he's eternal, the only place he could offer a sacrifice is probably in the eternal universe-
David: The-
Seth: ... temple
David: ... the universal temple.
Seth: The universal temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That is creation itself.
David: Right.
Seth: Right?
David: How... Yeah. But how do you, how do you go to that temple?
Seth: Yeah. How do you go to that temple?
David: I-
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs] You said-
David: I've never seen a Levitical priest pull that one off.
Seth: Uh, right. Uh-
David: I don't know where the, the, what'd you call it? The warp speed 11 clouds are.
Seth: The wa- yeah, yeah, yeah. Warp 11.
David: I don't know how to get there, to the edge of the universe.
Seth: Uh, no, you're exactly right, they wouldn't do that. Because where would they serve? They would serve in the copy. Uh, Levitical priests serve in the copy of this.
David: Right. The, the earthly temple is a copy of the universal temple.
Seth: That's right.
David: And the Levitical priests serve in that copy.
Seth: That's right.
David: But the order of Melchizedek would need to serve in the actual-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... universal, real temple where God actually dwells-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in the heaven of heavens.
Seth: And if that first temple-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... didn't make anybody perfect-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if this first version, uh, this first mock-up of what the universe was meant to be never allowed God's people to fully enter that rest-
David: Yeah, right
Seth: ... what do you think might be possible if the Melchizedekian priest-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... can go through the universal cosmic temple-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and do what the smaller copied temple was always meant to do?
David: Maybe he can actually solve the sin separation problem once and for all.
Seth: That's right. And then he quotes from Jeremiah 31-
David: Okay
Seth: ... which promises a new covenant-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... where the law of God will be written on God's people's hearts-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and they would always follow God, and God's sins would, uh, their sins would always be pardoned.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's like, we da, we have a Hebrew Bible reader.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We, we have in Jeremiah this amazing promise.
David: Right. I remember that. I remember reading that promise.
Seth: You remember reading that promise-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where our sins would be pardoned forever.
David: Right.
Seth: And that God's laws would be written on our heart, so we would intuitively understand and desire to do what God tells us to do, rather than constantly breaking it and unbelieving. You remember that covenant promise, right?
David: Yeah, but it's just, I just feel like it was never gonna happen with these Levitical priests.
Seth: But the Levitical priests w- could never do it, right?
David: [laughs]
Seth: And why? Because it was a copy-
David: Right
Seth: ... of something eternal. And now we know that we have a, a high priest who's been qualified by v- virtue of his eternal life. Do you think that might mean that the new covenant promises of Jeremiah 31 are finally on the line?
David: I, I sure think so.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You've backed me into a corner yet again.
Seth: You backed me in. I did it again.
David: Author of Hebrew-
Seth: You did it again. And so what, Hebrew Bible reader, when a Levitical priest wanted to make a sacrifice on behalf of God's people in the broken temple, what would he do? He would walk through that middle space. He would walk through the heavens, right?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The, the heavenly realm.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he would offer sacrifices there. And if he was the high priest, he would walk past that-
David: Into the Holy of Holies
Seth: ... into the of holy, into the, into the Holy of Holies.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And basically he says, "You know all about that. I'm not gonna tell you any more about it. I won't speak about that in detail" [laughs]-
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... in chapter nine, verse, uh, five.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he says, "Okay, and then the priests would offer their sacrifices." And Hebrew Bible reader, you and I have already admitted that the Holy Spirit has revealed that this was in- inadequate, right?
David: That, that the l- that, that the Levitical priesthood and the temple copy was inadequate?
Seth: Yeah, we agree with that, right?
David: I mean, yeah, you've kind of twisted my arm. I agree with you now.
Seth: And, and the reason why we believe that is why? Because the universe is supposed to be a permeable temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... where God can always live with his people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But if there's permanent barriers that can only be transcended through geneal- genealogical lineage-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and even that genealogy is reduced down to one, does that look anything like Eden?
David: No. One person once a year-
Seth: The-
David: ... representing me.
Seth: Right.
David: I, I wanna go there.
Seth: Does that l- yeah, that, that doesn't look like the eternal cosmic temple God set up in Eden.
David: No.
Seth: This is not the eternal rest God promised.
David: This can't be-
Seth: Right
David: ... it.
Seth: But-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when Jesus appeared as our high priest, he went through the more perfect tent.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He went through the cosmic temple.
David: Yes.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: I am so surprised he's just assuming this amount of knowledge-
David: It's crazy
Seth: ... of his Hebrew audience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He went through this greater cosmic temple.
David: And, and you're saying, when you say that, you're saying, like, in his ascension or something, he went-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... through the heavens, into the heavens of heavens, to now stand at the actual right hand of God in the m- murky cloud land.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right. He was on Earth like all of us.
David: Yep.
Seth: He died on Earth like all of us, but then he passed through the heavens-
David: Yep
Seth: ... through the place that no human can really go-
David: Right
Seth: ... through, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, I always think about how s- all sci-fi and, like, all the science fiction-
David: Is always trying to do that
Seth: ... trying to get into the realms of space. And even, like, our human technology, like, is that, like, our desire to connect with God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, manifesting in technology? Anyway, that's a side note.
David: Yeah. Anyway, that was pretty cool.
Seth: He passed through this sphere that nobody could go to, and he went into the divine presence of God and offered his sacrifice there.
David: Not in the copy.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. So what does that mean then? The, since the sacrifice went to the real place, it was more effective, or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it was better? Or like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... what's-
Seth: He says what it does, it actually purifies our consciences.
David: Mm.
Seth: It purifies our consciences, and that this makes Jesus the guarantor of the new covenant-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of the one that was promise, uh, prophesied by Jeremiah, who said God's law would be written on our hearts. And so what he's saying is because Jesus does this, because He goes into the eternal temple, He can make real-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the new covenant promises of Jeremiah. He can change our consciences. The old covenant, what was it good for? It could remind us that we lived in an imperfect, broken temple.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could remind us that we were at distance from God and that, like, sacrifice could make it right.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it could purify us outwardly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could make things right for a period of time.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It could, like... It-
David: Yeah, it could make it to where... I mean, 'cause the, the point of the, of the earthly temple was that it could purify the people in the land to let them stay in the land-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... next to the temple.
Seth: Right.
David: But that's just the copy. Cool, I'm now allowed to live next to the copy.
Seth: That's right.
David: But I still don't feel like I have the right to enter into the heaven of heavens next to God.
Seth: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. It could take away the consequences of an individual sin-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but it could never actually change your conscience that desires to do those sins, right?
David: Right. Yes.
Seth: It never did that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... 'cause that was Israel's chronic problem.
David: Yes.
Seth: That they always desired to do the wrong thing-
David: Right
Seth: ... and disobey God.
David: Yep. It was outward.
Seth: That's right. So when Jesus goes into this eternal temple-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the cosmic temple, and sacrifices himself there, He does exactly what we would hope to have happened in this copy temple.
David: Mm.
Seth: We were hoping in the copy temple that there would be a sacrifice that could not just change our sin, like assuage the consequences of our sins-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but transform our hearts.
David: Right.
Seth: And that would al- re per- le- reallow God and humanity to live together once more.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And now that Jesus has done in the heavenly temple, we can be guaranteed that's what's happening right now in heaven.
David: I see. There's two things I think might be helpful to point out. One is, I don't think we've said explicitly, is that based on the measure of sin that happened-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in Israel, the high priest would take the blood of the animal deeper into the temple.
Seth: Ah, yes.
David: So, like, if it, if it was a really high sin, or especially a sin committed by the priestly order, they would take the blood all the way into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle it on the mercy seat. And that's what Jesus did.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He took His blood-
Seth: Yes
David: ... into the highest Holy of Holies and sprinkled it there-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to atone for the highest possible sin that could ever possibly be committed.
Seth: That's right.
David: Uh, which is really cool. And then the other, the other thing that I, I've heard people talk about is it's not only the atonement that is represented whenever the blood is taken into the presence of God in the Holy of Holies, but it's actually me being taken into God's presence-
Seth: By the priest
David: ... by the priest through-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the blood of the animal.
Seth: Okay.
David: That the closest I could get to God is if I knew that it's this death-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and the, the blood-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... of the animal is... I can kind of picture in my mind that I'm drawing near God through the blood of this animal.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But with Jesus, He goes to the actual right hand of God-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and i- and has promised now to take us with Him.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: That's not some-
Seth: Yes, yes, yes
David: ... psychology-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's happening, that we actually will-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... join Him at the right hand of God.
Seth: Yes.
David: That He is the better high priest because He will bring us with Him-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to God's right hand.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is just amazing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay?
Seth: Yep. And then he kinda has one final turn of his argument at the beginning of chapter 10-
David: Okay
Seth: ... where he says another reason why we know that the, what the Levitical order was trying to do was not as good as what Jesus is doing is that the Levitical order had to make the sacrifices repeatedly.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: There was daily sacrifices, weekly sacrifices, and yearly sacrifices.
David: Yes.
Seth: And these would always remind us of our sin. It would keep us conscious of our sin, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what they... That was their purpose.
David: Yeah, the, the temple had no chairs in it.
Seth: Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Because the priests had to stand the whole time they were in there to show that the work was unending.
Seth: Right. Which should that have taught us? That the blood of bulls and goats-
David: Right
Seth: ... was never enough to take away sins.
David: Right. If it was, then it would've stopped it somewhere.
Seth: It would've stopped it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We, we've always been waiting for something greater than a blood sacrifice.
David: Right, more permanent, yep.
Seth: And that's what Jesus does. On the cross, He offers His sacrifice once-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... uh, for all people, and that is what allows us to enter God's rest.
David: Yes.
Seth: And then he kinda has this final checkmate moment with his Hebrew audience by quoting, uh, from Psalm 40 with them. And King David says this, "God, sacrifices and offerings you don't desire, but a body you have prepared for me. In burnt offerings and sin offerings, you've taken no pleasure." And then I said, "Behold, I have come to do your will, O God."
David: Mm.
Seth: "As written me in the scroll of the book." What, what the author's doing is, like, didn't King David say this? Didn't King David admit that sacrifice and offering can't take away the effect or consequences of sin?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And didn't he admit in this psalm that the solution to the inadequacy of sacrifice was a body that would be prepared for God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and there would be a willing son of David, King David, who would come to do God's will-
David: Wow
Seth: ... that would actually do the thing that, the bring new covenant. Didn't David say that, Hebrew reader?
David: I guess he did. I never read it-
Seth: Right
David: ... that way, though.
Seth: Right. I didn't read it that way either.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But apparently that's what, that's what he did.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so he's yet again proving that Jesus isEverything these Hebrew Bible readers want-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is found in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I love that, and I also love this, uh, this idea here that I, I kind of alluded to a second ago, verse 11 of chapter 10. You know, priests stand daily.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, there's no chair in, in the temple, uh-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... but then when Jesus ascended to the right hand of God after making a sacrifice for sin, verse 12, He sat down.
Seth: He sat down.
David: He sat down. Why? There's no more sacrifice to be made.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's made the one sacrifice that needed to be made. The body that God prepared-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... David prophesied, has been given.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now our final priest doesn't have to stand anymore.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He can sit down 'cause the work is done.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Which, to me, is just really good news 'cause it's... I- I always think there's surely some bit of penance or bloodshed or something-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that needs to be [laughs] spilt or done-
Seth: Right
David: ... to atone for my sins.
Seth: Yeah, and when that turns inward, it's like, "I gotta beat myself up."
David: Right.
Seth: "I gotta punish myself."
David: Yep.
Seth: "I gotta go and walk about and, like, you know, atone for my sins in the Australian outback."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "I've gotta, like, do something-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to, to pay for my sense of guilt."
David: Yep, but when I feel that, I can look into the heaven of heavens and see Christ seated at the right hand of God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... knowing that the work is done, and I can look at Him and know that my intercessor has-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... told me that there's no sacrifice left. He's interceding for me perfectly, and to just come and enter His rest.
Seth: Right.
David: So to go back to the beginning of this episode-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... we, we said that the author of Hebrews is saying that there's an eternal rest that you can enter, and that because Jesus is a better priest and a better sacrifice, you can enter that rest.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So how would you word that now to us today to say, "There's a rest for you, and here's how to enter it, through your priest, Jesus"?
Seth: Mm.
David: How would you communicate that to us today?
Seth: I mean, I love the way the au- author of Hebrews says it. He says, "So, knowing all this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... let us draw near with a true heart in full confidence. Our consciences have been sprinkled clean, and our bodies have been washed by the pure water of Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: So let us hold fast this confession of our hope and not waver."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's like... This is... Maybe I'm not answering your question, but like-
David: No, no
Seth: ... this is like... This is the thing he's been getting, getting to. Like, if all of this is true, if all of our history as a, the people of God, stretching all the way back to Abel, has been leading up to this moment-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we've have everything we've been hoping for.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So let's not waver. Let's be confident that Jesus is who He said He was, that our faith has reached its butterfly moment.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: And let's persevere.
David: Yeah, it's interesting, the answer to, "How do I enter into rest?" The answer is confidently.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: And it's like-
Seth: That's right
David: ... that is interesting 'cause you do always need some measure of confidence in order to rest.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Right? Like, even going back to last episode where we talked about what was rest, it's a kingdom where there's peace on every side. There's no enemies, and so whenever there's no enemies and there's nothing to be worried about, what can you do? You can rest.
Seth: You can rest.
David: You can put down your weapons, and you can go dance in a field. You know? [laughs] That you don't have any worry.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And why can I now enter into the rest, the eternal rest of God? It's because I know that there's nothing left to assail me, even myself, even my own sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That there... I do have peace on every side-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because I have the great High Priest, Jesus, who has finished the work, interceded for me, and is seating now at the right hand of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's nothing left for me to do other than be confident in what He's done.
Seth: Right.
David: And because I can be confident in what He has done for me, I am finally able to rest.
Seth: Yeah. I can-
David: I know that I'm not afraid.
Seth: Yeah, and I can persevere when following Jesus is difficult.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When my faith gets tested, when people try to persecute me for what I believe to be true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've got a lot of great reasons, an entire history of reasons, why Jesus is everything my people have been waiting for forever.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I'm not going to bow to a Roman sword.
David: Right.
Seth: I'm going to continue to do good despite the evil being done to me.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Okay. So how do you enter into rest? Confidently.
Seth: Confidently.
David: Wow. All right, that's pretty awesome. Okay, we have one more episode in Hebrews.
Seth: That's right.
David: Hall of Fame of Faith.
Seth: The Hall of Fame of Faith and all the warning passages-
David: Warning passages
Seth: ... that we have been avoiding up until this point.
David: [laughs] So is it like a... Is it gonna be like a bittersweet episode or...?
Seth: Um, I... No. It's gonna be awesome.
David: Okay.
Seth: I'm very excited because the stiffest warnings in the Book of Hebrews, um, always just drive us back to the great hope-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that we've been talking about this entire time.
David: Okay.
Seth: Um, so yes.
David: Well, I'm excited about that, too. Well, everyone, thank you so much for joining us here in Hebrews and here on the Spoken Gospel podcast, and we will see you next time.
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]
