Seth: [upbeat music] Every person you've ever heard of great faith has all been trusting in Jesus, just like I'm telling you to, guys.
David: Right.
Seth: So let's do it.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's join this great hall of faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: Let's trust in the invisible reward Jesus' resurrection has secured-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and live like it's true right now. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about Him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everybody to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are going to try to wrap up our study in the book of Hebrews today. We are gonna start in chapter 11, but also flash back to some warning passages.
Seth: Yes.
David: So Seth, how, are you feeling full of warning or-
Seth: Full of challenge-
David: How you feeling?
Seth: ... and warning. I was really excited to like, "We're gonna do all of Hebrews in two episodes. It's gonna be awesome."
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then I realized these warning passages are so heavy, and I think they bro- bring out the most anxiety in people. If you're familiar with Hebrews at all-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, you'll know that there's really, really stiff warnings. And I know as a kid, at least for me, made me wonder if I was saved.
David: Right.
Seth: Made me wonder if I was included in God's people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like-
David: I mean, it is passages that you're talking about in Hebrews that in the church I grew up in, they were used to tell me that I could lose my salvation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so I was just like, "Huh. Am I?"
Seth: They are scary-
David: They're scary
Seth: ... stiff warnings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they've been sprinkled throughout the letter, and I just felt like it was impossible to, like, do them justice-
David: It was
Seth: ... while also explaining the, uh, the cosmic temple.
David: And how Jesus is the better Moses and-
Seth: Uh, yeah, so.
David: Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, let me try to sum up where we've come so far.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: I have no idea if I can pull this off or not.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we have the Hebrew audience, who is mainly Jewish, and they are experiencing some kind of persecution, probably in Rome, and, uh, the author of Hebrews is trying to get them to persevere, to continue to trust in Jesus throughout this persecution, and he's given, he's giving them tons of ammunition-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... as to why Jesus is worthy to suffer for and to be persecuted-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through, and, and why they have even better promises to hold onto now than they used to under the old covenant.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so if they could persevere under the old covenant, how much more could they persevere now under Jesus?
Seth: Yeah.
David: He sh- and he's shown them how Jesus is the better messenger because He's become like us-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and His message resonates and sympathizes with us, so it's better than the message facilitated by angels or prophets.
Seth: Yes.
David: He said how He's the better Moses, who not only establishes a local earthly temple, but a, a worldwide temple where we can enter into His rest no matter where we are or what we're going through, how He's a better priest who doesn't die and leave our position with God and our intercession up in the air, but how we can come straight to God at any time because we have a priest who lives forever, who's not a Levite, who can die, but a, a Melchizedekian priest-
Seth: You're doing, keep going. [laughs]
David: ... who lives in the eternal temple forever. And how He offered not a sacrifice that had to be repeated over and over again like goats and bulls, but He's offered one sacrifice for all, and He sat down, and it's finished, and we can trust that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and enter into rest confidently.
Seth: Yes.
David: Did I do it? [laughs]
Seth: You did a great job of summarizing two and a half hours of content-
David: Woo!
Seth: ... in a minute and a half. Uh, yes, and another way to say it is to go back to this metaphor we've been using.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, about the caterpillar of their faith. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... the whole Old Testament has been a caterpillar.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the, the caterpillar of faith, the story of God, and Go- and His history with Israel, has got them through incredibly difficult times.
David: Right.
Seth: But in Jesus, that butterfly, or that-
David: That caterpillar
Seth: ... caterpillar has turned into a butterfly.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if we had reasons to persevere previously-
David: Yes
Seth: ... we have even more reasons-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to persevere now.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's where we're at.
David: That's where we're at now. Okay. So you said in the opening that we've skipped over some warning passages.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and that each of the times that the author of Hebrews was saying that Jesus is better than this or better than that, giving them reasons to persevere, embedded in those were warnings-
Seth: Yep
David: ... that we've skipped over in order to address all of them now.
Seth: Yes.
David: So what is the content of those warnings? Why do they exist? What do we do with them?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Walk us through that.
Seth: Let me just read them-
David: Okay
Seth: ... as they stand-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and you can get a sense of, of what they say. So let me start with Hebrews 6, uh, chapter 6 verse 4. "It's impossible for those who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the Word of God, the powers of the age to come, who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance." Hebrews 10:26 and 27 says it this way: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there's no sacrifice left for, for sin, but only fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Hebrews 12 uses a story to make this point. It says, "Let's make every effort to live in peace with everybody and be holy, because without holiness, no one will see the Lord." And then he ex- gives them the example of Esau, the son of, uh, Isaac, who would have been the next in line to receive the promises of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... but sold them for a bowl of soup.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And even though he wished he could take that back, even though he cried, begging-To get back into the family promise
David: He couldn't
Seth: ... he was ex- exiled from it. He could never do it. And then going back all the way to the beginning with another story.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's goes, it's still, takes a little more explanation, but it's th- Hebrews 3:8 and 9, and he's quoting from the Book of Psalms, retelling the story of Israel failing to enter the Promised Land.
David: Right, from the book of Numbers.
Seth: From the book of Numbers.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he says, "Today, if you hear this voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion during the time of testing in the wilderness."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's encouraging them not to do so, and he's like, "Because what happened when they hardened their hearts in the wilderness?" Even though they were rescued from Egypt by Moses, even though they tasted, experienced-
David: Right
Seth: ... the goodness of being part of God's family, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: They, in the wilderness, disobeyed God, did not believe in His promises-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that would, that would come true in the future, and they died in the wilderness.
David: That whole generation, no matter what they did, they died in the wilderness.
Seth: Their graves are not in Israel.
David: Right. Okay.
Seth: Therefore, don't be like them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's... And so that's the weight.
David: Yeah, I feel that.
Seth: That's the weight of-
David: 'Cause what it sounds like, what all of this sounds like is, okay, you've been saved, but if you mess up too much, there will be no hope for you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's what it sounds like.
Seth: That's exactly what it sounds like.
David: What's going on? [laughs]
Seth: Yes. [laughs] That's exactly what it sounds like.
David: 'Cause I'm very curious as to w- like, why is he talking like this?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, why bring up these high stakes and these huge warnings, uh, and these, you know, you could never recover from this kind of language?
Seth: Yeah. Um, there's a couple ways we could talk about it.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think one is like, you can just think of it as a rhetorical strategy. Like, what's interesting, after a lot of these, he will say something really harsh-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like, "Never again will you be able to be" [laughs] "You will never receive repentance again."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he said, "But of this we're confident of better things."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Oh, but I know that you're not of this kind because I've seen you love your neighbor and believe in God."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so it's interesting that he'll say something so harsh and so intense and then follow it up almost immediately with like, "But I, I'm confident of something different of you."
David: Right. "Don't harden your hearts or you won't be able to enter the rest, but the Sabbath rush remains for you."
Seth: "But the Sabbath rush remains for you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Exactly. Exactly.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: So I think what he's highlighting is that there is real risk in the endeavor to follow Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? Like, in the endeavor to follow God and to obey Him and to believe His promises, there are people that have tried to go on this journey-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and have not made it across the finish line.
David: They've not endured.
Seth: They have not endured. They have not entered the rest.
David: Okay.
Seth: Their bodies are scattered across the wilderness.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right? Like-
David: Yeah. Sure
Seth: ... there's real risk.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I know that's not you, but I need to remind you that we're not playing a game.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Real stakes are at hand.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think that's part of it.
David: Okay, 'cause his goal here in Hebrews is to encourage and challenge his readers to continue to persevere-
Seth: Yes
David: ... in their faith in Jesus, and one of his methods of challenging them and encouraging them to do so is by warning them that it's not a given that if you follow Jesus you'll do so forever.
Seth: Right.
David: And that there are real stakes for failing to endure.
Seth: That's right.
David: And those stakes are you're cut off. There is no rest.
Seth: You can't get your-
David: Like, you can't-
Seth: ... birthright back
David: ... you can't get your birthright back.
Seth: Right.
David: So endurance is extremely important.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: Okay. I was expecting something a little lighter than that, but-
Seth: Yeah. Let's-
David: Okay
Seth: ... I thought we'd go heavy-
David: [laughs] All right
Seth: ... and then go less heavy [laughs] as we went down.
David: Cool.
Seth: Um, but a- and I think that's important-
David: Mm
Seth: ... 'cause I think there's a way that we... I think there's a way that I can tend to talk about Christianity in the West, in the privileged position I sit in-
David: There's no stakes
Seth: ... there are no stakes.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think it's important to remember, like, even in our world-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a failure to endure when the stakes are low still results in, like, devastating consequences if we fail to hold onto the truth of Jesus. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... eternity's on the line.
David: Right.
Seth: The eternal divine rest of God is on the line.
David: Yeah. Okay, and, and like the stakes are the same for all people who would deny Jesus, right? Or, like-
Seth: Yep
David: ... they, they, all of them would not enter into this rest or it's not just-
Seth: Uh
David: ... people who fail to endure. It's... Or is there-
Seth: Right
David: ... is there something different happening?
Seth: I mean, he's speaking to a particular audience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so his examples are pooled from people who have experienced God's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God's goodness in some way, the people of Israel under Moses' leadership, Esau under the, the son of Isaac-
David: Right
Seth: ... one of the patriarchs.
David: Yeah.
Seth: These church members who've experienced the Holy Spirit.
David: Right.
Seth: At one point he's talking about miracles being done in their midst.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, like we're not talk- he's not talking to an audience that has not experienced God's goodness in some way.
David: Right.
Seth: He's talking to an audience who has intimate awareness with the goodness of God and has had experience either as a covenant member of the family of God-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... through Abraham or as a member of a-
David: The church
Seth: ... local community-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... following Jesus.
David: Okay.
Seth: So that's just his audience he's speaking to.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: So we could make a bit broader point about-
David: Okay, but the point that you're pulling out here that we don't wanna shy away from is don't take following Jesus lightly because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to fail to endure in your faith and in your pursuit of Him, there are real consequences.
Seth: Yes.
David: I think what that brings up that maybe is the next thing you'll talk about hopefully-
Seth: Okay
David: ... is so if I'm following Jesus and then I don't do it good enough-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... have I then l- like is there a measure that I have to hit in order to-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... not fail? Or other, the other thing I've heard is, okay, let's say I'm following Jesus and then I backslide for a little while and I've-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... tasted the heavenly gift-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... and then I just renege and go back for 10 years, does that mean I can never be brought back-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to repentance? I can never get my birthright back? Like, what does it say to back- backsliding Christians who wanna come back in?
Seth: Let's talk about that.
David: Okay.
Seth: So I think Hebrews 10:26 is a really helpful verse. He says, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there's no sacrifice left for us."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And specifically he says, "no sacrifice left."So if we deliberately keep sinning, there's no sacrifice left.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In the Old Testament, there are three kinds of sins.
David: Right.
Seth: Uh, there are unintentional sins.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Leviticus 4.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: It's a whole category of unintentional sins. And like, honestly, most of the space in Leviticus is given to unintentional sins.
David: Right.
Seth: Things we don't know we're doing wrong or didn't mean to do or accidentally happen. Like, oh, a, a cow was injured on my property-
David: Right
Seth: ... and I'm responsible for that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's an unintentional sin. Or I, I saw somebody, the, the wife next door bathing, and I should have looked away, and I, I saw her naked. Oh, no.
David: Oh, no.
Seth: David and Bathsheba.
David: I was, I was chopping some wood and my-
Seth: Ax head flew
David: ... ax head flew off and killed somebody.
Seth: Yes.
David: Didn't mean to do that.
Seth: Didn't mean to do that. Unintentional sins. And a huge portion of Leviticus is talking about what happens when you break one of God's laws unintentionally, when you didn't mean to, you didn't know you were doing it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And there's a ton of sacrifices available for you.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think for most of us, and I think for most of the author of Hebrews, is a lot of our sins, a lot of our failures are done unintentionally.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Something pops up on our browser. We make a mistake at work. It impact, impacts other people. We contribute to an organization that turns out they're supporting slave labor. Like s-
David: Right
Seth: ... like unintentionally sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And there's always what? A sacrifice available for unintentional sins.
David: Right.
Seth: There's a second kind of sins, intentional sins that we later regret.
David: Okay.
Seth: In Leviticus chapter 6:1-7, there are provisions for un- intentional sins that we do. We know that God's law says not to do them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we choose to do them anyway.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yet, a period of time passes, and we feel sorry and want to be made right with God.
David: And there's a path for that in the sacrificial system.
Seth: There is a sacrifice for that.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so just to, to name it again, I think that covers a lot of our sins.
David: Right.
Seth: We know what God wants. We've been in the church community for a while. We know the expectations of the Bible. We heard the Ten Commandments, and yeah, we stole the candy bar. Yeah, we, uh, we lusted after our neighbor's wife.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We, you know, we-
David: Right
Seth: ... we did whatever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We know what God said. We've done otherwise.
David: Right.
Seth: And we feel sorry.
David: Right.
Seth: That's most of my sins, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Like that's a lot of them. Um, and whether there's a lag time between 10 years of me doing something and repenting or one year, it doesn't matter.
David: Right.
Seth: If I feel sorry for that thing-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there's a sacrifice available for me.
David: Right.
Seth: However, there is one type of sin he, in the Levitical code that has no sacrifice.
David: Is it the high-handed sin? Is that it?
Seth: It's the deliberate sin.
David: The deliberate sin.
Seth: The high... So the word translated deliberately here-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... goes back into the Septuagint. It's high-handed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or deliberate sins. Uh, so I kind of think of like a raised fist.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I know God's law.
David: I don't care.
Seth: I don't care. I know there's a sacrifice available for me. I know that God will forgive me. I don't think forgiveness is a thing I need.
David: Hmm.
Seth: I, like I d- I don't buy into the system.
David: Right.
Seth: I'll do what I want. I don't care if there's a sacrifice 'cause I, I don't think I need a sacrifice offered for me.
David: Right.
Seth: There's a deliberate, there's a high-handedness-
David: Right
Seth: ... a raised fist in the air that says, "I want nothing to do with God's law and nothing to do with the atonement that He is offering me."
David: Right.
Seth: And I think that's the type of sins the book of Hebrews is addressing-
David: Because-
Seth: ... is talking about in these passages
David: ... what sacrifice could be made for someone who thinks they don't need a sacrifice?
Seth: There is none.
David: Right.
Seth: That's exactly right. And I mean, in the story of God's people becoming God's people, Pharaoh has a high-handed sin like this.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He tastes God's good works. He sees the plagues. He sees all this, these miracles happen, right-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in his kingdom. He doesn't care.
David: No.
Seth: He doesn't care.
David: No.
Seth: He doesn't recant. He reluctantly lets Israel, the people of Israel go only to track them down-
David: Right
Seth: ... and try to, to murder them in the wilderness.
David: Yep.
Seth: He says high-handedly, and what is he called? Hard-hearted.
David: Right.
Seth: How are the people in the wilderness described?
David: Hard-hearted.
Seth: Hard-hearted, just like Pharaoh.
David: Right.
Seth: I know you just gave a whole bunch of laws, God. We don't care, and we don't care to follow the sacrificial system that you set up to make us right either.
David: Hmm.
Seth: We know you've given us a good land to in-inherit. We d- I don't want that. I want to live where I wanna live. I don't care where you say you want me to live.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's a high-handedness to the sin, a deliberateness to the sin that no sacrifice is available for. And I think to your point, because you can't accept a sacrifice you won't accept.
David: So it sounds like you're saying that these warnings have more to do with like the callousness of one's own heart that makes them unreceptive-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to a sacrifice or to a salvation or to a-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a olive branch.
Seth: Yep.
David: It has more to do with that than it has to do with unqualifying oneself from the grace that God wants to extend-
Seth: That's right
David: ... and he says, "Never mind."
Seth: That's right.
David: It has, it has less to do with God pulling his hand back and more to do with our pulling our hand back.
Seth: I think that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Because deliberate sins-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's us. That's on us. And what is the whole book of Hebrews about, been about up to this point? It's been about God's pursuit of his people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and bringing them to, in, into his rest. Not content with angels, God sent his Son.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Not content with Moses, Jo- God sends his Son to be the better leader.
David: Right.
Seth: Not content with the Levitical priesthood, he sends an eternal priesthood to make them come into the eternal rest. What's God been doing?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Drawing people into his rest, making a way, an eternal once and for all sacrifice for all sins, that all people wherever they are-
David: Right
Seth: ... can access God's rest.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's motion's always been to be with his people and to provide his peoples rest. There is a way to high-handedly refuse that-
David: Right
Seth: ... by saying, "The sacrifice that Jesus does not matter, and the way that I wanna live my life matters more."
David: Right. Which w- which is the very threat that's facing the people that he's writing to.
Seth: That's right.
David: Is abandoning Jesus and saying, "You know what? Nevermind, this whole thing is stupid."
Seth: That's exactly right
David: Yeah, and unnecessary
Seth: Right. Under pressure, they're like, "Does this matter?"
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: "D- do I wanna, really wanna buy into a sacrificial system when I can just offer a, a sacrifice to Zeus and be fine?"
David: Right. Yeah, and, and I feel like you have to get somewhere like this because of s- like you said, so many o- other things that the author of Hebrews says. He says that Jesus is able to save us to the uttermost.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like, if he saves me to the uttermost, it surely can't be if I'm still struggling with sins and bringing them to him, and he's-
Seth: Right
David: ... interceding for me all the time. It can't be that, it can't be that I just lost my salvation one day because-
Seth: No
David: ... I sinned. He also says that this new covenant that's going to actually wash the inside of me and make me obey His command-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's like, well, surely then-
Seth: Right
David: ... I'm going to become more and more like Him.
Seth: That's right.
David: So it seems like, yeah-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it seems like it has to be something like you're describing.
Seth: You know what? You didn't say it this way, but if the sin that you can't come back from is this hardheartedness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what is the promise of the new covenant? A softheartedness.
David: Right.
Seth: The laws of-
David: That's right
Seth: ... God written on our heart. So it's like, oh, if we accept-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the invitation of Jesus, the hardheartedness becomes im-
David: Impossible
Seth: ... possible in a sense.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? It's like-
David: Which is why he could say, "Here's the warning, but I know that's not you 'cause you have the soft heart."
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Because a hardheartedness is impossible for those who are actually in Christ.
Seth: That's, yes.
David: Yeah. I, I see the two... Okay, so let me try to say this back to you in a way that might be helpful. There's kinda two sides that we're, we, we've talked about these warning passages. One is there's real rhetorical weight that the author of Hebrews is trying to give to his argument-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... through these warning passages.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're playing with live ammo here. Endure, because the consequences of not enduring are real and dire.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I know that that's not you because you don't have a hard heart. You have a soft heart that's been purchased by your new high priest, so trust that and continue to persevere.
Seth: Yeah. That's right.
David: Is that what's happening?
Seth: That's, that's, that's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Trust the work of Jesus and persevere, which leads us into, uh, the hall of fame of faith, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... chapter 11. So all these warnings that we've talked about lead into chapter 11.
David: And why, why do they lead into it there? I don't know if I'm seeing that really clearly. Like, how does, how do the warning passages speak to chapter 11?
Seth: The warning t- passages are challenging the audience of Hebrews to endure in their faith-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to remain steadfast in their faith, to, to not be like people who have high-handedly refused the ways of God.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: And it-
David: It's compared them to Esau. It's compared them to the hardhearted generation in the wilderness.
Seth: Yes. He's like, "But I want you to emulate the faith of an entire list of characters-
David: I see
Seth: ... from Abel all the way to Daniel."
David: Uh, I see. Okay. So what you're saying is that the warning passages often reference, like, parts of the Old Testament where there's high-handedness and hardheartedness, but now it's gonna culminate in-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... showing them places that represent faith and perseverance.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: That's cool.
Seth: One of the things that the author does is at, at the end of one of his big warnings-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is he reminds them, as... He kinda paints them into a corner again-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you know, how's he, how he's been doing this whole time, and he reminds them of what the prophet Habakkuk said.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he's, tells them, "The righteous live by faith."
David: Oh.
Seth: The, like, the right-
David: So how do you persevere? How do you not enter into this hardheartedness?
Seth: Yes.
David: Faith is the answer.
Seth: Yes.
David: Therefore, let me show you some examples of what faith looks like.
Seth: That's right.
David: Chapter 11.
Seth: Chapter 11.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, let's jump in then.
Seth: Let's jump in. Uh, and he, and he begins by giving kind of, like, a, a definition of faith.
David: Yeah, sure. What, what is this thing that the righteous live by? [laughs]
Seth: Right. And he, and he c- he says, depending on your translations, "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, or the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen, or the confidence of things not seen. Um, and by this faith, the people of old received their commendation, or they received their reward." So we probably should just pause there.
David: Yes, please.
Seth: Figure out what he's saying.
David: Yeah. So what... Okay, I, I heard what you said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: How is he defining faith?
Seth: Yeah. I have been forever confused by this passage.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And I feel like my, all my time in church did not help me, uh, prepare me to answer this question-
David: Yes
Seth: ... on this podcast.
David: Yep. 'Cause he says, "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for." 'Cause I always, I always kind of collapse hope and faith.
Seth: Okay.
David: That if I have hope that Jesus is coming back-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that means I have faith that Jesus is coming back.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he seems to separate them a little bit, that we have hope that Jesus is coming back, for example, but, uh, faith is being assured in that hope.
Seth: Being confident-
David: Confident
Seth: ... in that hope.
David: Yeah, because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you can hope for something-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... but to have faith means that you're confident in it.
Seth: I think that's probably pretty close.
David: Yeah, because it's like-
Seth: So y- it's-
David: All the... I'm just thinking of all the examples he's gonna say.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, like, faith concretely works itself out.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, people are always doing things with this hope. They don't just have it in their mind.
Seth: Yes.
David: They have it in their hands.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they're doing something with that hope.
Seth: Yeah. The way that I ended up writing it for our, some of our other content is, like, faith is confidently acting now as if the future reward Jesus' resurrection guarantees is already here.
David: Yes, that's really good.
Seth: And so there is this, we have all these reasons to believe why Jesus is awesome.
David: Right.
Seth: Rose from the dead.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that means there's an eternal rest-
David: Right
Seth: ... waiting for us, guaranteed by His resurrection.
David: And we hope for that.
Seth: And we are confident that future reality will come about.
David: Right.
Seth: That's what faith is.
David: Right. Well, and you said confidently acting.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which I liked that part of the definition.
Seth: Yes.
David: 'Cause as we look, I think most people in this list act-
Seth: That's right
David: ... in some way.
Seth: And I-
David: Faith puts flesh on hope.
Seth: That's right. And I think another way to think about it is w- the way we talked about it in, I believe, in our second podcast where we talked about God has been resting from the s- the seventh day-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the world was made, but what does the quality of that rest look like?It's looked like parting Red Seas.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Freeing people from slavery.
David: Right.
Seth: It's looked like raising people from the dead. It's looked like doing good-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the world on behalf of his people.
David: Yes, actively working.
Seth: Actively working.
David: So yeah, faith is hope put into current action.
Seth: That's, yeah, that's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Co- yeah, confi- like yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
David: Yeah, confident action in what you're hoping for. Get, yeah, I mean it's, ugh, this is so dumb but it's actually really helpful. It's like hope and faith, the difference is hope looks at a chair and says, "I bet that could hold my weight."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And faith sits in the chair.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah.
David: And so faith-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is doing something based on what you hope.
Seth: The future reality of rest for my legs. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: I'm acting on it and doing it.
David: 'Cause yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think that's really important even, so it's even really challenging for me because I think that we, we say that faith in Jesus alone saves.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But I think the way we function is that hope in Jesus alone saves.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
David: You know, you know what I'm saying?
Seth: Yeah, I do know what you mean.
David: And it's like y- yes, you hope in what Jesus has done and you believe in it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But do you have faith in it? Are you s, have you sat in the chair?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And have you done something that manifests the fact that that hope is real to you?
Seth: Yes.
David: In-
Seth: Have you acted like God in His rest? And what, what, what, what was one of God's actions in His rest? Sacrificially dying on a cross.
David: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like this is one of God's restful actions to redeem humanity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what rest is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the people of God.
David: Right.
Seth: So to have faith is to recapitulate-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Jesus's own death for others-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as we believe that Jesus's resurrection guarantees a new, better future for us.
David: Yes. Okay, I think that's helpful. We're still talking hypothetically and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... metaphorically. I think as we go through the list here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we'll see this put in action.
Seth: Yeah, I honestly don't know the best... I mean, the, this is the longest chapter in the Book of Hebrews.
David: Oh, yes, there's lots.
Seth: And it's, and it's just example after example. But let's start with the first one-
David: Okay
Seth: ... because I think it's really weird.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Because he doesn't-
David: It's always good to start with a weird one
Seth: ... um, because he doesn't start with an example of other people, he starts with an example of their faith.
David: Of whose faith?
Seth: Of the beli- the people he's writing to.
David: Oh.
Seth: "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the Word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible."
David: What? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. Remember how he defined faith a second ago? He said it's the hope, the conviction of things not seen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's saying, "Okay, let's go through the hall of fame of faith through the whole Bible and I'm gonna show you how people have faith. Let's start with us, us. We have faith in an invisible God who's made our universe."
David: And he made it out of invisible things.
Seth: Yeah, he's invisible. God's invisible.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And what does that prove to us in one sense?
David: That invisible things are substantive or have power or-
Seth: They're more powerful than our circumstances.
David: Oh, they're more powerful than-
Seth: That they are the ultimate, like, like the invisible things control the visible things-
David: Right
Seth: ... is another way to say that too.
David: Yeah, if God made the visible world with invisible things, then the invisible world must be more powerful than the visible one.
Seth: That's right.
David: Therefore, faith in what we can't see, i.e. what is invisible-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is actually more powerful than believing in things you can see.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: Is that, is that-
David: That's a trip. Yeah.
Seth: Uh, that's a, kind of a trip. And I, I think really, really concretely, I think at one level it's an encouragement. I'm about to show you a whole bunch of people throughout the Old Testament you've probably always looked up to and you can never be like.
David: Mm.
Seth: But by faith we believe something really significant.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That God, the invisible God, create everything that was made.
David: Mm.
Seth: We already know that invisible futures are more powerful than present realities.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The future of God's rest was more powerful than the chaos-
David: Right
Seth: ... that presided over the Earth.
David: Right.
Seth: We already believe that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're already on team-
David: Team invisible
Seth: ... the people, uh, t- team, people of Israel throughout time. We're, like you are people of faith. This is one way to encourage them that they're people of faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And also to like add color to what it means to have faith, is to have faith that the invisible reality that God is bringing about through Jesus' resurrection is more powerful than our current circumstances.
David: Wow.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: [laughs] Is that a wow of I don't understand that or is that a wow of-
David: It's like, uh, it's a trip. It's just thinking about, I've never thought about the, I don't know what to call it, like the philosophy of the invisible or something.
Seth: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
David: But just this idea that he's proving that, that which is invisible is more powerful than that which is visible. And therefore faith is, it actually allows you to tap into something more powerful than you can have by what you can s- touch, see, smell, taste.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's just like I always feel like I'm operating at a handicap-
Seth: Yep
David: ... whenever I have to lean on faith.
Seth: Yep.
David: Because like everybody else can just science and it's just like here it is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Verifiable proof.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that just always seems stronger.
Seth: Right.
David: And faith always seems weaker. And for him to say that no, that which is unseen is actually more powerful-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's what makes faith so cool-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is just kind of blowing my mind.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's just like a wow of huh.
Seth: Huh.
David: My, my brain is catching up-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to all this.
Seth: And I think it's something humans intuitively believe because I think you're right, a lot of people are like, "Well, science is objective, faith is-"
David: Subjective.
Seth: "... subjective."
David: Therefore the objective is stronger than the subjective.
Seth: Right, but I think most people operate on this really basic assumption that love is more powerful than anything.
David: Oh, right, and you can't see that.
Seth: You can't see love.
David: Right. It's invisible.
Seth: Love is more powerful... That it can overcome the boundaries-
David: Right
Seth: ... of like why do we love cats and dogs in a pho- sleeping together in a photo? Love transcends the boundaries of nature. The cat and the dog are sleeping together, oh, my gosh.
David: Right.
Seth: Like love is more powerful than the boundaries we set up.
David: Yes.
Seth: Love is more powerful than our present circumstances. If we trust in the power of love, everything will work out at the end.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's not based on anything objective, it's based on the same type of knowledge that the invisible things are actually functionally, because God is an invisible God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... more powerful than things we can see.
David: Right. Yeah, or to take a completely academic approach to the same thing that is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... proving the cats and dog thing a different way-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is it's like the mind-It's the mystery of the mind in philosophy right now-
Seth: Conscious, yeah
David: ... where, like, people are trying to materialize the conscience or argue from science the existence of the mind or the conscience-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it's really quite difficult-
Seth: Right
David: ... to do.
Seth: No one's done it yet.
David: No one's done it yet.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's, you know, it's that invisible material-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is m- more transcendent or more powerful or more elusive-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... than the gray matter of the brain.
Seth: Right. Another way to say it, another ex- scientific example would be the Big Bang.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Something came out of nothing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Nothing is more powerful than something all of a sudden.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Nothing is the genesis of all things.
David: Yeah, yeah. How, yeah, how can that be?
Seth: Well-
David: Even, even science.
Seth: Even science seems to admit this now.
David: Yes. Right. Okay.
Seth: And I-
David: That, that's helpful. I, I'm, I'm, I'm there.
Seth: Yeah, and by faith, and so the broader point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the fun metaphysical point-
David: That's true
Seth: ... we can, that we can geek out on. But the, the real point is that by faith we are part of this lineage that starts with Abel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I love that Christine pointed this out 'cause an example-
David: One of our staff writers
Seth: ... one of our staff writers, is that the hall of fame of faith starts with Abel and not A- Adam and Eve.
David: Yeah. Why is that?
Seth: Because Adam and Eve saw God.
David: Oh, darn.
Seth: And they saw the-
David: That's good. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] And they saw the eternal rest. They saw the eternal r- they saw what the world should've looked like.
David: Right. They didn't have the opportunity to have this hope.
Seth: Right. Isn't that great?
David: That is crazy.
Seth: I thought that was a beautiful observation.
David: That is.
Seth: So Abel was the first one born outside the garden, never to have seen the promised reward. Um, yeah, what does he do? He offers the sacrifice God required of him even though he could not see-
David: Mm
Seth: ... maybe the logic of it.
David: Right.
Seth: We're never given a reason why one-
David: No
Seth: ... sacrifice is better than the other, but he obeys it anyway despite the fact that his brother wants to kill him for it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what, what i- how is he rewarded? And h- the author says, "By the fact that we've been talking about his faithfulness for thousands of years."
David: Mm.
Seth: Abel's a le- like, his legacy has outlasted his own life-
David: Right
Seth: ... in a really, really powerful way. He's tasted the resurrection life of Jesus by the fact that we're still talking about him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: He goes on to another example of faith. This one is Enoch. Enoch by faith trusted God, believed in the promises of God, and what happened to him? He literally didn't die.
David: Right. He became invisible.
Seth: He became invisible.
David: [laughs]
Seth: He didn't, he experienced the future Jesus's resurrection guarantees.
David: Right.
Seth: A world without death. He experienced it.
David: His, his hope became real.
Seth: His hope became real.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's right.
David: His, yeah, his trust in the invisible to him became visible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, goodness gracious.
Seth: Let me, let me rewind for a second.
David: Okay.
Seth: 'Cause I keep saying something implicitly that I wanna say explicitly.
David: Say it.
Seth: What is the future reality that Jesus's resurrection guarantees?
David: Mm. Okay.
Seth: We've talked about it as, like, divine rest.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The establishment of a kingdom.
David: Right.
Seth: And I think another really simple way to say it is eternal life. That is the eternal reality-
David: I see
Seth: ... secured by Jesus's resurrection from the dead.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's an eternal priest, went to the eternal cosmic temple, offers eternal life in an eternal kingdom.
David: Yes.
Seth: Eternal salvation from sin.
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: That's what we are hoping for and have faith in.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we have so far two examples of people who have experienced a form of eternality, right?
David: Oh, right. Enoch, because he was with God, presumably for eternity.
Seth: Didn't die.
David: Didn't die. And then Abel because he, from the point where he died all the way till right now at this podcast, we're still talking about him, so he-
Seth: He-
David: ... lives on through-
Seth: That's right
David: ... his words.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay? Yep.
Seth: Yep. That's right.
David: All right.
Seth: So I wanted to s-
David: It's eternal life. Okay.
Seth: It's eternal life.
David: Go ahead.
Seth: I wanted to say that out loud. Verse 7 talks about Noah.
David: Mm.
Seth: By faith Noah was warned about the coming flood and built an ark even though he'd never seen rain.
David: Mm.
Seth: Right? He'd never seen rain.
David: Never seen rain or never seen a flood?
Seth: I guess had never seen a flood.
David: Yeah, I was like-
Seth: Never seen a-
David: I'm sure it rained
Seth: ... sorry, it, it might've rained.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, it might've rained. Uh, it'd, as rare as rain is, uh, it probably rained. [laughs]
David: It probably rained.
Seth: In a desert.
David: Yeah. Yeah, but never seen rain like that.
Seth: Well, and again, like, if you live in a desert place, you'd never seen rain like that.
David: No.
Seth: Like, so even though-
David: Yeah, imagine living in a desert and be like, "Hey, guys, it's gonna flood, so much so that we need this giant ark."
Seth: Right.
David: You're a lunatic.
Seth: And maybe another way to say it is, like, he'd never seen a boat before. [laughs]
David: [laughs] What is a boat, God?
Seth: Build it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And despite those things, he was obedient.
David: Yep.
Seth: And even though he's mocked by the world-
David: Right
Seth: ... his faith, like, spoke a better word than the world was speaking to him, and he b- has, in their words, become an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith, which I think means he has inherited part of what God's eternal priesthood does, is it, it makes us righteous.
David: Right.
Seth: It's another way to say what-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God's priesthood said. He's an heir of the eternal righteousness that Christ provides on our behalf.
David: It is interesting how much righteousness is talked about in this section.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And I'm just reminded of our last episode where we talked about Melchizedek-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who was the king-
Seth: King of-
David: ... of rest and the priest of righteousness or something.
Seth: Yeah, the king of peace and the king of righteousness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That tracks.
David: It's just like, oh, wow, those two things go together, that-
Seth: Yeah, he was the king of a place called Salem, which means peace.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And his name, uh, Melchizedek, is a riff on the Hebrew for righteousness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's king of peace and righteousness, and these people-
David: That's just interesting
Seth: ... are inheriting the righteousness of the eternal priest.
David: Right. When you enter into rest, you are allotted righteousness.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's cool.
Seth: And you get that by faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: By trusting.
David: That's pretty cool.
Seth: That's super cool. Let's, uh, so there's a whole bunch of other examples-
David: Right. Yes
Seth: ... we could talk to. Let's go to the one that really kind of clinches the point that the author of Hebrews is making.
David: Okay.
Seth: Throughout the, the book, he's been making the point that the whole of the Hebrew Bible has been leading to Jesus.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: And so as good Hebrew people, you should be trusting in Jesus and not be falling away from that faith because based on all the l- internal logic of the Hebrew Bible, Jesus is the man we've been waiting for, right?
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: And so he says very starkly that all these people who were trusting God in some way, had faith in God-We're actually trusting in Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: And here's where he says it, chapter 11 verse 25- 24. "By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin, because he considered the reproach or the rebuke of Jesus greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward."
David: Mm.
Seth: So you're saying when Moses refused the pleasures of Egypt-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and was looking forward to the promise of a new home for his people in the promised land, that was a form of trust in Jesus the Messiah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Moses was trusting in Jesus. All the people of faith throughout the Bible have been trusting in Jesus, so don't give up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... audience.
David: That's so interesting because... And, like, I guess the reproach of Christ is probably talking about, like, the, his suffering, his death, his humility.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And-
Seth: Yes, yes
David: ... Moses is joining himself to that by a- aligning himself with the slaves-
Seth: That's right
David: ... rather than the empire.
Seth: That's right. That's right.
David: And so he's joining himself to what Christ would ultimately embody and reveal in the person of Jesus. Okay.
Seth: That's right.
David: That's cool.
Seth: So I think the, the big point here is, like, this is the point that he's leading up to.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like the whole, the caterpillar of faith throughout the whole Hebrew Bible-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... has been to get us to the butterfly of Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And every person you've ever heard of great faith has all been trusting in Jesus, just like I'm telling you two guys.
David: Right.
Seth: So let's do it.
David: Right.
Seth: Let's join this great hall of faith.
David: Mm.
Seth: Let's trust in the invisible reward Jesus' resurrection has secured-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and live like it's true right now.
David: Right. And, and he uses that, like, famous cloud of witnesses line.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: And it's like, oh, they... We have this long history of people who have proven that action, uh, towards the invisible trust-
Seth: Confident action
David: ... confident action towards the invisible hope-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is worth it.
Seth: Yes.
David: That it's not stupidity or folly-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but that it pays off.
Seth: It pays off.
David: It leads to rest and righteousness. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. He gives a whole bunch of examples of, like, people whose daughter or sons were raised from the dead.
David: Right.
Seth: Kingdoms toppled, kingdoms given, these great acts of, of God's blessing and reward-
David: Yep
Seth: ... on the backs of people's faith.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's like you should be encouraged that it's not folly-
Seth: Right
David: ... to trust in the invisible God, uh, or the invisible intercession of Jesus because it's actually proven again and again and again by your own scriptures, Hebrews-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that that kind of faith yields incredible results.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's really encouraging.
Seth: The eternal resurrection, like, the, the reward Jesus' resurrection guaranteed was experienced by our ancestors in part-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the form of a caterpillar. We get it in the form of a butterfly.
David: Yeah, in full.
Seth: So persevere.
David: Right.
Seth: These warnings aren't about you.
David: Mm.
Seth: The, the circumstances are dire. The, the stakes are real. That's not you. You are these people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We believe that invisible things are more powerful than visible things. We believe along with Moses that Jesus is worth the sufferings that we're experiencing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We know that eternal life is our reward, so let's persevere.
David: Yeah. Man, that's encouraging. I like ending on that note because, oh, just thinking about... Like I said, the, when I, when I'm having to hold onto the invisible things and my faith, I just always feel like I got the short straw-
Seth: Right
David: ... and that I have to operate at a handicap-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the, the- than the rest of the world. And actually, what the author of Hebrews is showing me is that faith in the invisible actually gives me the upper hand in this world, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's actually the stronger thing, and there is a lineage of witnesses showing me that that is true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that I can persevere in my trust in the invisible because it's been proven again and again to be true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's cool. Okay.
Seth: Can I end on something that I wish somebody would've told me when I was growing up?
David: Do it.
Seth: Um, it's, it goes back to the warning passages.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've spent a ton of my childhood worried that I had lost my salvation-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... rededicating my life to Jesus over and over and over again.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, scared that I'd somehow fallen afoul of God's way, and these things were true of me.
David: Yeah, totally.
Seth: That I would never again experience the blessing of God, that there was no sacrifice left for me.
David: Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people feel that way.
Seth: Right. And I... This is the simple thing that I wish somebody would've told me when I was a kid or growing up in my twen- I think it was my 20s I was still asking this question, you know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, but, um, if you're worried that's you, that's not you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because people who are worried about the state of their soul and relationship to God are not in the deliberate high-handed category.
David: That, that is literally the opposite description of a hard heart.
Seth: If, yeah, if, yeah... The fact that you're worried about it proves-
David: You don't-
Seth: ... you're the soft-hearted kind-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that God is your high priest for, and he's ready, willing, and excited-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to pray and make intercession for you.
David: A sacrifice always remains for a soft heart. [laughs]
Seth: Yes. Uh, so I just wanted to say that out loud.
David: That's good.
Seth: Um-
David: It's really good.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. Well, thank you all for joining us in our journey through Hebrews. This has been really enlightening, really good, so we hope you enjoyed it, and we will see you again on the next episode.
Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next time. [outro music]
