Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him, so each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: I'm so excited to be on YouTube-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as well.
Seth: Oh, I'm excited to invite you to-
David: Ooh, I like this
Seth: ... into our normal podcast rhythms.
David: [laughs] Yeah.
David: 'Cause normally there are not cameras-
Seth: There are not cameras here
David: ... over here, which I don't think you're supposed to reference cameras when you're on camera.
Seth: I don't.
David: But-
Seth: We don't
David: ... we don't do this normally on podcasts [laughs]
Seth: We don't do this normally. I think last time we did this, I stared directly at [laughs] one of the cameras while we were talking.
David: That's right. We did this last time with Esther.
Seth: That's right.
David: And that was, that was before you were on staff, wasn't it?
Seth: It was when I-
David: That was before you even worked at Spoken Gospel [laughs]
Seth: And so I just came down for the weekend to talk about Esther.
David: That's awesome.
Seth: Um, and now I'm on staff.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're in a brand new podcast studio.
David: Yes.
Seth: And we're celebrating 500,000 downloads.
David: Yes. Our podcast passed half a million downloads, uh, and so we thought what a great opportunity to invite our YouTube audience-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into the podcast studio-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, to watch this. But hey, normal everyday podcast listeners-
Seth: For the next four weeks, we're in Jonah
David: ... we're in Jonah, and you guys are the superstars listening all the time.
Seth: Yes.
David: And but we asked you, you would join us in welcoming our, our YouTube guests.
Seth: Yes.
David: So thank you, guys, for being here.
Seth: We, I'm just imagining like a Twitch stream s-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... Twitch stream feed right here. It's like, "Everyone stay."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I'm watching too ma- too much Twitch.
David: Are you?
Seth: [laughs]
David: I don't think I've ever watched Twitch. I'm glad. You're so, you're so hip.
Seth: My kids watch, uh, like watching this Ma- a guy play Super Mario Maker.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Anyway.
David: And he makes a bunch of cool levels?
Seth: He actually just plays other-
David: Oh, okay
Seth: ... people's levels.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Anyway, it's, it's not neither here nor there.
David: But here is Jonah.
Seth: The Book of Jonah.
David: We're in the Book of Jonah. Um, really excited. You and I have both fallen in love with this book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, over the past several weeks.
Seth: I was, like, interested on an intellectual level because I'd always... It's like it's such a hot flashpoint about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is it history or not? And I just fell in love with it as literature and as a message about mercy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to enemies-
David: Right
Seth: ... which I was just not expecting.
David: No. I, yeah, yeah, what I grew up thinking about Jonah was completely subverted by our study over the past several weeks. So i- if you were to just, somebody's just watching this trying to decide if they should st- stay tuned and listen to the whole thing, what is Jonah about, and, and why is it so cataclysmically important for us to think about?
Seth: Well, because, one, Jonah is not about a fish.
David: Wait. [laughs] Hold on.
Seth: It's not about a fish. Um, that takes up two verses-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in the entire book. It's not about a fish. It is about God's offensive mercy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to God's own enemies.
David: Mm.
Seth: And the best parallel I read-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in all the commentaries was somebody who was like, "Jonah is a Jewish prophet sent to Assyria who will one day exile them."
David: Right.
Seth: That would be like sending a Jewish prophet to Nazi Germany to preach mercy to the people who built Auschwitz.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's unfathomable.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Jonah invites us into what God's heart might be for people like that.
David: Yeah, and, like, also gives us a [laughs] lens-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... into who we might be-
Seth: Who we might be [laughs]
David: ... when God calls us to do that.
Seth: Yes. And, like-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So Jonah is, I think most of us, the children's story version we know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God calls Jonah-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to go preach in Nineveh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which is the capital city of a nation called Assyria.
David: Yeah, which we'll talk about more later.
Seth: And he doesn't go.
David: Yep.
Seth: And we're all, "That's bad."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "That's disobedience." But he gets swallowed by a fish, spit back out, and does the right thing.
David: Right.
Seth: At least in my conception, that was the point of Jonah. Don't run away from God's call. Obey God or get swallowed by a fish.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, that was, that was, for me, what Jonah was about.
David: Do we need to get into your childhood a little bit with that?
Seth: We always need to get at my childhood.
David: [laughs] Yeah. I think, um, [coughs] excuse me, I think I remember, uh, hearing my VBS teacher or someone, somehow this, this is the idea that got stuck in my head, was that, that Jonah was afraid of the Assyrians and the Ninevites.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and, like, this is called the city of blood, you know.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It was this really violent nation, and it was. This is all really true. But the whole reason for the book was to show a cowardly Jonah at the beginning-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and then a brave Jonah at the end.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the, the call was to trust God and not be afraid.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I don't even know where they got that [laughs] idea.
Seth: I don't know where they got that.
David: But-
Seth: Because-
David: ... that's, that's what I thought
Seth: ... the book ends with Jonah telling God that he's too merciful.
David: Yeah, he's angry at God at the end.
Seth: He's, he calls God evil.
David: Yes.
Seth: He calls God, uh, uncontrollably evil. What does, how does he say?
David: Oh, gosh.
Seth: He said exceedingly evil-
David: Oh
Seth: ... for showing mercy to G- his own enemies.
David: So intense.
Seth: So and that just surprised me on the face of it, and I was like, "I, I don't even believe that's what Jonah's about."
David: So Jonah is about showing how the mercy of God can look exceedingly evil? [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: That's so intense.
Seth: And, like, being broken by it-
David: Yes
Seth: ... which I think-
David: Being utterly broken by it, yeah
Seth: ... that is what Jonah's about.
David: Okay. That's amazing.
Seth: So then who is Jonah? Um, Jonah is-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the son of Amittai.
David: Question answered. Moving on. [laughs]
Seth: Verse, verse one. "Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah, son of Amittai." That's the opening verse.
David: Okay.
Seth: So one thing we know, Jonah is a prophet.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is the way that prophets are introduced throughout the Bible.
David: Yes.
Seth: "Now the word of the Lord came to Isaiah, Amos, Habakkuk."... whoever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So he's a pro- one of God's prophets.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's the son of Amittai. His name means dove.
David: Yes.
Seth: Jonah means dove.
David: Yep.
Seth: Jemma means the same thing.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's wh- our English name comes from Jonah, Yona.
David: Oh, there you go.
Seth: It's, you know, eventually it comes from there. [laughs]
David: Eventually, in a roundabout way.
Seth: Uh, and-
David: So Jonah means dove
Seth: ... and Amittai means faithfulness.
David: Oh.
Seth: So you can expect, like, oh, Jonah-
David: This, this peaceful messenger of God who's going to-
Seth: He's-
David: ... bring the faithfulness of the Lord to the nations, like the dove from Noah's Ark
Seth: That's totally right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: That's what we expect. That's what we expect. And God says to him, "Arise and go to Nineveh."
David: Mm.
Seth: An evil place. We're like, "Okay, why?" God says, "It's a great city, and call out against it, for their evil has come up before me." Like, okay, this is in a prophet's purview. We have a faithful prophet. His name means s- son of the dove, the son of faithfulness, and he's gonna prophesy against an evil city. That makes sense.
David: Mm.
Seth: Verse 3, "But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish away from the presence of the Lord."
David: Uh-oh.
Seth: What?
David: They, they broke the pattern.
Seth: They broke the pattern.
David: Everything was going as according to plan in every other, uh, prophetic book-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... until that moment.
Seth: Until that moment, and for a couple different reasons. One, from, like, a genre's perspective.
David: Right.
Seth: So whenever you have a prophet-
David: Yes
Seth: ... a prophet, a prophecy ca- the word of the Lord came to the prophet of so-and-so, and then you hear the prophecy.
David: Yes.
Seth: You-
David: It'd be like, "Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, a bunch of mustangs were speeding down a highway-
Seth: Right
David: ... with the police hot on their tail." Wait, hold on.
Seth: Wait, wait, wait. That's not-
David: Not the right genre
Seth: ... [laughs] not the right genre. You should hear a long, poetic-
David: Yes
Seth: ... prophecy.
David: The next thing.
Seth: For the rest, that's the way Isaiah works, that's the way Amos works, the way Habakkuk works-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way Jeremiah works. So the fact that we get a story about the prophet-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is already-
David: Weird
Seth: ... weird and upside-down.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, the fact that he disobeys-
David: Yes
Seth: ... is even more interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we're told, like, away from the presence of God. You would think a prophet would probably know-
David: A prophet would want to stay there or-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah.
Seth: Or know that you can't run from the presence [laughs] of God. Um-
David: Have you not listened to the Psalms? Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: Yeah, but then another weird thing-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, like, that if you were a Jewish listener of this book, you would already have kind of a context for who this Jonah, son of Am-
Seth: Amittai
David: ... Amittai was, right?
Seth: Yes, you would. So this is not the first time Jonah shows up in the Bible.
David: Right.
Seth: He shows up in 2 Kings 14-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... during the reign of Jeroboam II.
David: Okay, and Jeroboam I was the guy who set up the two golden calves in Israel and basically led to the northern kingdom of Israel's downfall through idol worship-
Seth: Yep
David: ... for the rest of their existence, which ultimately led to the Assyrians coming and destroying them.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so this is Jeroboam II-
Seth: Yep
David: ... who continued being evil and also led to what's called the Silver Age in Israel, a lot of wealth-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a lot of prosperity, but at what cost? A lot of oppression, injustice.
Seth: Yep.
David: Uh, yeah.
Seth: And if you wanna read about that, read the Book of Amos.
David: Yes.
Seth: The Book of Amos is all a prophecy against Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or Judah, the South?
David: No, it, yeah, Israel.
Seth: It's Israel and North.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Israel and North, for the way that they have worshiped false gods-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... joined themselves to, to pagan nations, and have neglected the poor.
David: Right. And so Amos was a prophet during the time of Jeroboam II.
Seth: Yep.
David: We know what prophets during the time of Jeroboam II should sound like.
Seth: Yes.
David: And yet Jonah doesn't quite fit-
Seth: No
David: ... that bill exactly.
Seth: J- so Jeroboam did evil in the li- eyes of the Lord and did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam, so I don't know about the first Jeroboam.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, but Jeroboam II, this is verse 25, restored the boundaries of Israel from Lebo Hamath to the Dead Sea, and that's-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the same boundaries that Solomon ruled over.
David: Back in the Golden Age-
Seth: Back in the Golden Age
David: ... of Israel. Okay.
Seth: In accordance-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with the word of the Lord, the God of Israel, spoken through the servant, Jonah, son of Amittai.
David: Oh, so Jonah had made a prophecy, and it came true.
Seth: Right.
David: That's good, right?
Seth: During the reign of the evil king?
David: [laughs] Uh-oh, wait, hold on. Not, not super good.
Seth: That did not... Oh, so, so, okay, see, so he prophesied accurately, but on behalf of Israel's national interest.
David: But it was the word of the Lord.
Seth: So then, okay, that's an interesting thing.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Verse 26, "The Lord saw how bitterly everyone in Israel, whether slave or free, was suffering, and there was no one to help them."
David: Mm.
Seth: "And since the Lord had said he would not blot out of Israel from under heaven, he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam." Okay, that's also a, a strange thing to say.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God, Israel's suffering without Jeroboam, so God uses an evil king to save Israel?
David: Mm.
Seth: The point is, the picture we get of Jonah and Jeroboam and God's actions in Israel in this point in history are not clear-
David: Right
Seth: ... and even upside-down from what we might expect.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so when we come to the Book of Jonah and we read about a prophet that's not about his prophecies, who's disobeying God instead of obeying God, all the f- the puzzle pieces start to make sense.
David: Yeah. It was almost like there was a very specific story God wanted to tell, and in the whole suite of prophets to choose from, Jonah and the story of him and Jeroboam-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... II was the perfect candidate.
Seth: Perfect.
David: [laughs]
Seth: A guy who we're not quite sure which line he falls down.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, so yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's who Jonah is.
David: Okay. Is, so is, are we, when we read Jonah, are we supposed to think of him as a, as a, as the bad guy, or as, like, a good guy who's faithless, or like-
Seth: Is he a hero, the antihero?
David: Yeah. Who is, who is he, like, from a character standpoint?
Seth: Well, from verse 3-
David: Yep
Seth: ... we just know he's not who he's supposed to be.
David: He's supposed to be a prophet of God who obeys, says, "Yes, here I am, send me," and instead he goes away.
Seth: And if you read that story next to the story of Jeroboam II, and we're like, maybe he's also somebody who-
David: Because he refuses to pre-
Seth: Well, so here-
David: Yeah.
Seth: I got confused for a second.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Why doesn't Jonah want to preach to Nineveh?
David: Oh, right
Seth: So-
David: Well, my VBS teacher told me 'cause he was scared of them.
Seth: My VBS-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... told me he was just disobedient.
David: Ah.
Seth: But everything else that we have understood about Israel's place in time, this moment of history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... why would Jonah, like Jonah is part of God's people-
David: Yep
Seth: ... living in a silver age, restoring God's boundaries that Solomon had.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And God wants him to prophesy to an enemy nation against it. Why, why wouldn't he do that?
David: Mm.
Seth: Unless there's something that we're not getting yet.
David: Right.
Seth: So what's interesting about the J- Book of Jonah, you're left to guess why he might disobey.
David: At this point.
Seth: At this point.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're like, "Well, maybe he's scared."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Maybe he is being just simply disobedient."
David: Right.
Seth: "Maybe something's going on that we don't understand."
David: Mm.
Seth: By the very end of the Book of Jonah, we learn that, um, Jonah doesn't want to preach to Nineveh because he knew God would be merciful to them.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he calls God's mercy towards Israel's enemies evil.
David: Right.
Seth: And all of a sudden, that makes sense of why he prophesied in Jeroboam II's favor.
David: Mm.
Seth: He was a nationalist to Israel.
David: Ah.
Seth: He didn't want anybody threatening Israel's national sovereignty.
David: Right.
Seth: He isn't gonna go preach mercy to the Assyrians, who are breathing down their neck and probably gonna overthrow them someday unless they keep on their good side.
David: Mm.
Seth: So he doesn't wanna preach mercy to God's enemies because he wants I- Israel to remain the nation that it's become.
David: Yeah, because if, if Assyria is as evil as we know they were-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they were horrible.
Seth: D- if you go, just look up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Assyria torture. They made stone relief carvings of all the different ways they tortured people.
David: My gosh. Or don't look that up. [laughs]
Seth: Don't look-
David: It sounds terrible.
Seth: I, I... Have you heard of Vlad the Impaler?
David: Yes, I have, actually. Was he an Assyrian?
Seth: He took... He, no, he-
David: Oh
Seth: ... lived after that.
David: Okay.
Seth: But he was famous for impaling people on sticks. He got that from Assyria.
David: Oh.
Seth: The Assyrians invented crucifixion.
David: Oh.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And this is all documented on stone relief that you could walk by as you entered the city of Nineveh.
David: They would, like, celebrate their own torture.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Okay. So if, uh, i- if they were as bad as those reliefs tell us they were, which they were, uh, then, a- and you were Jonah wanting to protect Israel, then the best thing for you to do is to let Assyria's justice run its course, that you believe in a just God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He believes that God judges.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And so the best thing to, for you to do is to let God judge Assyria.
Seth: Go and preach judgment.
David: Right.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, great, let God take care of them, and then we can continue to be sovereign Israel, and everything will be fine. Um, yeah, that's intense. I mean, so that's one way to think about it. It's a really, like... It's probably accurate.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, you know, there's another way to, to look at it, too, because that's, like, a very, like, nationalist-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... kind of way to view, very political kind of way-
Seth: Yep
David: ... to view it. But it also is just, like, you can think about, like, the personal hurt-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that these Assyria, like, just, like, they're just... Or even just, like, from a sympathetic standpoint, like, they're just evil.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I don't want that evil to continue. Or, like, they've hurt and killed and murdered so many people, like, in all their conquests.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, God, I just don't think... I think they should be judged.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's like even from a personal standpoint, like a more sympathetic one, it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I just don't wanna see them come to salvation-
Seth: Right
David: ... 'cause they're so wicked. Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... I think they deserve justice.
Seth: And think about actually a Bible, two Bible categories that all Christians actually have, all believers in scripture have to wrestle with.
David: Mm.
Seth: God is merciful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And God is just.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's merciful to all who call on him.
David: Mm.
Seth: Israel, remember, was supposed to be a blessing to all the nations.
David: Right. That was the-
Seth: They were supposed-
David: ... Abrahamic Covenant.
Seth: They were the Abraham... Like, the purpose of them as a nation was so that the nations could experience God's mercy.
David: Mm.
Seth: What happens when some of those nations start cruelly punishing them? Who, who, what, what, what, what wins out in that moment?
David: Right.
Seth: God's mercy towards enemies that they're supposed to be a blessing to or God's justice on the injustice of their death camps-
David: Right
Seth: ... and savagery?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like I think everybody has to wrestle with that.
David: Yes.
Seth: Not just, like, Israel back then.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, is there mercy for murderers?
David: Right.
Seth: Is there mercy for Pol Pot?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is there... Like, where, like, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yes. You're absolutely right.
Seth: So-
David: That's the question we all have to deal, and that's the question Jonah's dealing with here.
Seth: That's exactly the question Jonah's dealing with.
David: Is, like, what, how do we deal with having a God of mercy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... when faced with the world's worst evil?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, how do those, how does the, the world's greatest mercy and the world's worst evil come to a head?
Seth: And think about Jonah's place in covenantal history.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's part of God's chosen people.
David: Right.
Seth: If God's supposed to prefer anybody, it would be them, right?
David: Mm.
Seth: So isn't he right not to preach mercy to them?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, if, right? Like-
David: I mean, if it's for their in- their own self-interest to, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for the, to maintain the chosen people of God, yeah, from one s- from one point of view.
Seth: Right. Yeah, I'm trying to, like-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... get, I was like, I could justify-
David: Oh
Seth: ... being Jonah.
David: Yes. Well, and it, and the thing is we've not put ourselves into this book right until we've done that-
Seth: Right
David: ... because it's very easy to read this at the surface-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and be like, "Jonah stinks," you know? Like-
Seth: Yep
David: ... he was selfish, and just forgive, man, you know, or, like, whatever. But until you take some time to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... sympathize with what he was going through, you've not read it right yet. 'Cause the original audience of this book would've had no problem rooting for Jonah when he ran away from the call of God. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: They would've been like, "Yeah, I would've done the same thing."
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's the point that you need to get to, at least from a hypothetical standpoint-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is to be like, "I get why Jonah would do that."
Seth: And that was my prayer coming into this podcast.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think I take advantage of God's love.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I assume that he'll be loving, but I never let that become offensive to me.
David: Right.
Seth: I never let God's mercy become offensive.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so as I was praying coming into this podcast, I want-To see myself in Jonah, as distasteful as that might be, so that I can actually be shocked by God's love for the first time.
David: Yeah. I remember, I'm trying to remember the last time I was super offended by God's mercy and I think it was listening to, there was a, a Rend Collective song.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, uh, it's called Second Chances, and the chorus is, "Countless second chances we've been given at the cross."
Seth: Mm.
David: And it just sings it over and over again. And I was like, "No, that can't be right."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "It can't be countless second chances." Like-
Seth: It's only two. [laughs]
David: Well, or, or i- it can be a million-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but at some point, you're just not bearing fruit, or you're not-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know? And I'm just like [laughs] and I was like, "It can't be that good." [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then I just cried [laughs] when I realized it was, and I was just like, "Oh, countless second chances."
Seth: Yeah.
David: I was like, that's the last time I think I've been, like, offended-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... by how merciful.
Seth: I've been offended by God's justice.
David: Yeah. Oh, that, that's easy for us to get offended about.
Seth: I don't know if I've ever, maybe until this book, been offended by God's mercy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so that's what I hope for our podcast audience-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and our YouTube audience, is that-
David: Is just come and let God's mercy offend you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that you can be dazzled by it. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. So that's the Book of Jonah.
David: Okay.
Seth: And we're gonna get into it. [upbeat music]
David: Okay, so we've gotten really far into this book so far.
Seth: Yes.
David: A whole, like, two and a half verses or something.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um. [laughs]
Seth: My favorite way to get through a book.
David: Favorite way to get into a book.
Seth: Start and abruptly stop-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and stick there. [laughs]
David: And so, but now, let's kinda, let's kinda get into the story. So Jonah, um, God, God says, "Arise, go to Nineveh." And so he arises, but instead of going to Nineveh, he goes down-
Seth: Down
David: ... to Joppa.
Seth: Yeah
David: Uh, which e- and he finds a ship going to Tarshish, and he pays a fare, goes down again to the ship-
Seth: Into the ship
David: ... and then goes with them away from the presence of the Lord.
Seth: Yep.
David: Um, a few significant things.
Seth: Okay.
David: One, Joppa is a, is a, was a very gentile city. It was a port city.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: A lot of mixed nations, so, like, the idea here is that, that Jonah is already getting us primed for the theme of the book-
Seth: Mm
David: ... if you weren't already, by Nineveh.
Seth: Right, right, right, right.
David: It's like, oh, now he's going among the gentiles in Joppa, in this-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... s- like, salty port city of a bunch of miscreants.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I, I like to think of it as, as-
Seth: Tortuga? [laughs]
David: ... Tortuga. [laughs] Yes, that's exactly right. It's Tortuga. And, and he finds Captain Jack Sparrow and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... takes, from now on, the captain of this ship is gonna be-
Seth: Captain Jack-
David: And he, he gets aboard the Black Pearl.
Seth: Great. I love this already. [laughs]
David: Bound for Tarshish. Okay. So and that's the, that's the image in my mind, and so that, that's what he's doing. And, and another thing to point out is God tells him to arise-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but he continually goes down.
Seth: Yep.
David: Now, at first reading, if you were a, a, a, like, a, like, a Hebrew reader, that would roll right, right o- right off your back because to go away from Israel is to go down-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because in the Jewish imagination-
Seth: Jerusalem is in the s-
David: ... is, is up
Seth: ... up, yes.
David: Is at the top.
Seth: Is at the top, yeah.
David: Uh, and so anywhere else is down. It's the highest point on Earth. Top, topography-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you know, whatever, who cares?
Seth: Topography be-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Can I say that? [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's what I, that's what I was gonna say, but then I didn't.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So I didn't know how to land that sentence. You know where we're going with that.
Seth: You know where we're going.
David: A- and so, uh, he's going down, but y- you're gonna see this repeated pattern that he continues to go down-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and down and down until he's in the belly of the fish at the bottom of the ocean.
Seth: At the roots of the continents.
David: At the roots of the continents.
Seth: I love that phrase.
David: And-
Seth: Uh
David: ... and he's there, and the whole point is, even there, what is said in verse three is never true. [laughs] He's never away-
Seth: Away from the presence
David: ... from the presence of the Lord, which is a little easier for us to read today, I think.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause we're, we easily go, "God's o- God's everywhere."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "He's omnipotent."
Seth: Right.
David: "He's, he's omniscient. He, he's omnipresent. He's everywhere." But a- and, like, I'm not saying that Israelites didn't believe that.
Seth: Right.
David: But to be, the reason why Israel was up is that's where the temple was.
Seth: Mm.
David: That's where God's presence was.
Seth: There was a sense that God's presence was concentrated. He was everywhere.
David: He, he, yeah, but he's there.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so really, to go down is to go away from the presence-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... of the Lord, in the temple.
Seth: Right.
David: He's literally going away from the presence of the Lord in the temple.
Seth: Right.
David: And yet there at the bottom of the sea-
Seth: Mm
David: ... God is uniquely, specially present with him.
Seth: Mm.
David: So it's just, like, this cool theme.
Seth: Yes.
David: So anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anything else to say about verse three?
Seth: It, it just, it just made me think about what, something we'll probably begin to talk about in the second podcast, but the Book of Jonah isn't just about Jonah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and our own response to God's mercy. It's also about Israel as a whole.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, Judah's response to God's mercy and what will happen when Judah is eventually away from God's presence in exile.
David: Yeah.
Seth: 'Cause-
David: Yes
Seth: ... at some point in Israel's history, they are exiled away from Jerusalem.
David: Away from the presence of the Lord.
Seth: And what happens there?
David: Right.
Seth: Is God still with them? Will he bring them out of the belly of exile?
David: Right.
Seth: Will, like he brings Jonah out of the belly of the fish, will he?
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think w- that's a hint.
David: Yes.
Seth: But we're gonna-
David: It's a major theme-
Seth: It's-
David: ... if not one of the biggest points of the book, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: But like, Jonah is actually a stand-in for the whole nation of Israel.
David: Absolutely right.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Yes.
Seth: We'll get to more of that.
David: And going down is exile.
Seth: Down into exile.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: E- absolutely right. Okay. So but then, so he's, he's on this ship. He's with, he's with Captain Jack Sparrow. He's on the Black Pearl.
Seth: I mean, I think you should lean into the J- Ja- I, I, I don't think that's, like, an accident that he's with sailors.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like-
David: It's supposed to feel a little scandalous
Seth: ... so he's with the pagan sailors. He's with Jack Sparrow. He went to Tortuga. Like, that's not us just being weird.
David: No.
Seth: That's actually-Part of, like, the Hebrew imagination-
David: Yes
Seth: ... what is it? A gentile port city. It's the place where all the prostitutes-
David: Right
Seth: ... and Jack Sparrows hung out.
David: Yeah, but it's also-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... super ironic. He was told to go to the pagans-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he says no, and goes to the pagans. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Like, Jonah.
Seth: I didn't think about that. [laughs]
David: That's so ironic. And we're gonna see how ironic that is in a second because he was, he, he was afraid to go save pagans, and he's about to go accidentally save some pagans. [laughs] You know what I mean?
Seth: Uh, yeah.
David: It's so funny.
Seth: Yes. I just had another thought about-
David: What's that?
Seth: ... another time the city of Joppa is mentioned in the Bible, with Peter.
David: Oh. Oh. Oh, my goodness. Yes, because-
Seth: So-
David: Oh
Seth: ... there's another son of Jonah in the Bible.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Seth: Simon Bar-Jonah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Peter, one of Jesus's apostles, and he is sent to Joppa to preach the gospel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And, no, in Joppa-
David: In Joppa
Seth: ... he has a message to preach the gospel to the-
David: To Cornelius
Seth: ... to Cornel- Cornelius, a gentile.
David: So this is when the church ends up spreading to the gentiles.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Peter is at a house in Joppa, classic gentile city still-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he's staying in the house of a tanner.
Seth: He's, he's-
David: Which a tanner was, like, someone who dealt in animal hide, and blood, and often unclean animals, and was-
Seth: And do you know how you tan an animal back then?
David: Oh.
Seth: You use manure.
David: A what?
Seth: Manure.
David: Oh.
Seth: You use... Like, that's how you strip it of all the chemicals-
David: Oh
Seth: ... to, like, yeah.
David: And you're not supposed to do that if you're-
Seth: Those are all things a Jewish person-
David: You're not supposed to touch
Seth: ... and so he, J- uh, Peter, is, like, concerned. Should I be s- preaching the gospel-
David: Jonah
Seth: ... to these gentiles? In that same city, a son of Jonah is told to do so.
David: The, he's told to go from Joppa to-
Seth: To
David: ... the gentiles to save them.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yes.
David: And, like, the Jerusalem Council, the church in that time, was very offended by this. Their Jonah.
Seth: Oh. [laughs]
David: Right?
Seth: Right, yeah.
David: Oh, that's crazy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I hope everyone followed that a little bit.
Seth: Well, we'll talk about it a little bit more-
David: Okay
Seth: ... 'cause I think that's part of the good news of this passage.
David: My brain is-
Seth: Yes
David: ... freaking out.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Synapses. Okay. Um, so yes, so the, he's, he's, he's with Captain Jack on the ocean, and then the Lord prepares or hurls a great wind upon the sea, and chucks, chucks some wind at them.
Seth: It's a mighty ta... Yeah, there's a theme. I don't know if it's a major theme, but there's definitely-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a theme of God being the active narrator-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in this story. God hurls a wind. God sends-
David: Prepares a fish
Seth: ... a fish. He-
David: God prepares a-
Seth: A plant
David: ... a plant. He prepares a worm, and then he prepares another wind at the end-
Seth: Yep
David: ... of the book.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He, God does a lot of things-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in this book, and so, like, God's control over the elements of nature is definitely one of them.
David: Probably to show his control over who He gives his mercy to.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I get to, I can move the winds. I can also give my mercy w- to whomever I want."
Seth: Yep.
David: So he throws this, this wind at the ship, and everyone gets really afraid, and they're crying out to all of their gods.
Seth: And think of, think about this. The fact that the mariners are afraid-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that's a big deal.
David: Mm.
Seth: Hardened Tortuga sailors.
David: Oh, right. They're used to rough seas.
Seth: They're used to rough seas.
David: Ar, yeah.
Seth: Right. They're, they're, like... And a- and again, it reminds me of the story of Jesus on the boat.
David: Oh, absolutely.
Seth: Right, like, you have-
David: Repeated story
Seth: ... fishermen.
David: Yeah.
Seth: People, like, Jewish sailors who-
David: Right
Seth: ... are f- ter- anyway-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... terrified of seas, and you have somebody sleeping in the boat. Anyway.
David: Yep. So, yeah, so Jonah's sleeping in the boat. [laughs]
Seth: Jonah's sleeping in the boat, and what you're gonna, supposed to see here-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is a comparison between the Tortuga sailors and the supposed prophet of God.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so what you expect is the Tortuga sailors to be licentious. They're gonna be swearing. They're gonna be-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, drinking their last dregs of rum because, like, that's who they are. They're sailors, and you ex-
David: Eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then you expect Jonah to be prophesying, begging God for mercy.
David: Yes. We c- look, if you would only repent, sailors, God will calm the seas.
Seth: And what you're supposed to see in this first, um, comparison between Jonah and the pagans is how much better the pagans are than Jonah.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um-
David: Yeah. They're all, like, praying to their gods, trying to calm the storm. They're trying to be faithful.
Seth: Yep.
David: And Jonah is sleeping on the job.
Seth: Unaware that anything wrong is happening.
David: Right.
Seth: At one point, the captain will shake him awake in verse six-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and he will use the very same words God uses to him in verse one.
David: Arise.
Seth: Jonah, arise. Call out to your God, just as you were supposed to call out to Nineveh.
David: To Nineveh. That's interesting.
Seth: He doesn't.
David: No.
Seth: The crew then throws dice, hoping God will direct them towards the culprit of the storm, and Jonah says nothing until the dice falls on him. So the sailors are actively trying to figure out what's wrong. Jonah is sleeping, unaware, and then reluctant to admit any wrong.
David: So then the, the lots, the dice finally fall on him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "Uh, well, I was running away from the God of Israel."
Seth: And everyone's like, "You were what?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: The pagan sailors were like, "You did what now?"
David: Who would do such a thing?
Seth: Every-
David: Is such a thing done in Tortuga?
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I love-
David: This is-
Seth: ... Joppa as Tortuga.
David: Joppa as Tortuga is perfect.
Seth: Um, yeah. So then he tells them to throw him into the sea if they wanna live.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Now, up to this point-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I don't have a great picture of Jonah.
David: Okay.
Seth: The faithless prophet.
David: Yep.
Seth: He would rather not be doing what God wants him to do. He's-
David: Sleeping on the job
Seth: ... sleeping on the job, reluctantly admitting fault. I don't peg him as the guy who's willing to sacrifice himself-
David: To save everybody else
Seth: ... for the sake of others. If he is, great. He's like Jesus.
David: Right.
Seth: I don't know what's happening here.
David: Right.
Seth: And the reason I think I don't know even more is because at the end of the book in chapter four, Jonah will ask God to kill him-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... again. And-For those of you... We haven't even said this yet, but the Book of Jonah is a series of parallels.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Chapter 1 and Chapter 4 are parallel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Or, Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 are parallel to one another.
David: Right.
Seth: You have Chapter 1 where Noah, Jonah is compared to these pagan sailors. Chapter 3, he's compared to these pagan Ninevites.
David: Right, and then 2 and 4 are parallels, and you have his testing in the belly of the fish-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then Chapter 4, his testing under the plant.
Seth: Yep, and in Chapter 2, he talks to God, and it's a prayer. And in Chapter 4, he talks to God-
David: But it's a complaint
Seth: ... and it's a complaint, and he asks God to kill him there.
David: Right.
Seth: So anyway, I'm just like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... setting up some of these parallels for us.
David: Yeah. But, so what you're saying here is perhaps with a capital P, Perhaps-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that this is actually Jonah saying, "Well, if I can't run from God," you know-
Seth: Yep
David: ... and, and Him wanting to me to give mercy-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to these Assyrians, I might as well just die-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 'cause then at least the plan won't come to fruition.
Seth: Right.
David: I'd rather die than see Assyria saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's not Jonah willing to die f- to save th- these pirates. Jonah's willing to die to ensure that Assyria is not saved.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ouch.
Seth: Yeah. I-
David: Not, not a great, not a great character study here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's... Yeah, I, I don't think he's supposed to be a great guy here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So then another comparison between the sailors and Jonah.
David: Okay.
Seth: Once they finally admit that throwing Jonah overboard is their only hope, they actually ask God for forgiveness first.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They say, "God, please forgive us for what we're about to do."
David: Let, let us be innocent of this man's blood.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So while Jonah's hoping Ninevite die, Nineveh dies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... these soldiers are hoping that their, their wish for death would not come true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, do, do you see what I, do you see what I'm saying?
David: Oh, totally. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They have a greater regard for life than Jonah does.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then immediately, as soon as they throw him into the ocean and the ocean calms, they offer sacrifices and make vows to God with whatever's left on, on their ship.
David: Yes.
Seth: And while the sh- sailors finally enjoy the calm seas, Jonah is swallowed by the fish and taken underwater.
David: Man. Okay.
Seth: So that's what you're supposed to see, the comparison between the faithless-
David: Yes
Seth: ... sailors, or the faithful sailors and the faithless-
David: Yes
Seth: ... Jonah.
David: Which like, to see like God, and like, and so already God is showing mercy then to the Tortuga pirates-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and swallowing up his prophet in the sea.
Seth: Yes.
David: I'm a little, I'm a little offended.
Seth: I'm a little... You're a little offended?
David: I mean, you're supposed to be, right? That's the point, is to like-
Seth: Right
David: ... be offended by God's mercy a little bit.
Seth: Yeah, and what's easy to do in this point, because we don't know Jonah's motives-
David: Mm
Seth: ... serves Jonah right.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: He's such a terrible guy.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: He deserves to be in the belly of the fish.
David: Right.
Seth: There's a reason why the Book of Jonah doesn't reveal to you that Jonah hates God's mercy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... until the end.
David: Right.
Seth: Because here you're like, "Yeah, he deserves it. He's such a terrible person." But when you learn that the knife of the story is that God wants to have mercy on the Nazis-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he wants to have mercy on the Assyrians, you realize like, "Well, I hate those people."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I wouldn't want them to be saved."
David: Right, and then the knife turns against you.
Seth: And you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I would've done exactly what Jonah did on the board, on board with the sailors."
David: All that serves him right stuff I threw at Jonah is now thrown back at me. [laughs]
Seth: That's right. That's right. [laughs]
David: [Instrumental music] Okay, then, I mean, I, I've gotta ask, 'cause there's just so much here, is like, I mean, how do we see Jesus in this story?
Seth: Oh.
David: Because it's everywhere [laughs] I feel like.
Seth: Well, what's great about this story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that Jesus kinda does it for us.
David: [laughs]
Seth: In Mark, Luke, John, and Matthew. I don't know why I did it in that weird, [laughs] weird order.
David: Mark-
Seth: I, [laughs] John
David: ... Luke.
Seth: Um, Jesus brings up the sign of Jonah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to the Pharisees.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, when they demand a sign that he is God's prophet and Messiah.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Jesus tells them that the only sign they'll receive is the sign of Jonah.
David: Mm.
Seth: So it, it's a, it's a bizarre prophecy. And it's like, well, what does he mean by that? Does it... And he says in Matthew that, "Well, just as Jonah spent three days and nights in the belly of the fish, so will the Son of Man spend three days and three nights in the belly of the earth." However, there's so much more going on-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in the context of where that's happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In both Mark and in Luke, it happens, that story about the sign of Jonah happens after Jesus performs the sign of feeding the 4,000 in Gentile territory.
David: Right.
Seth: The Pharisees come up to him and said, "Who are you to do these things? You, you, you can't be ...," give us a sign to prove us who you are."
David: Right, 'cause he wasn't-
Seth: He-
David: ... just feeding Gentiles. He was basically repeating the Exodus narrative of feeding Israel in the wilderness.
Seth: Right, but-
David: And it was, so-
Seth: ... but to people who weren't supposed to be there.
David: Yeah, [laughs] exactly.
Seth: To the oppressors of Israel during that time.
David: Yes.
Seth: To Romans.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's like, "Who are you? What kind of prophet are you?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's like, "The only sign I'm gonna give you is the sign of Jonah."
David: Which immediately then is already an indictment, because he's saying like, "You know what sign you need? Someone who, someone who's offended by grace-"
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... "going to the Gentiles? You need the sign of Jonah."
Seth: Yeah. Because they are Jonah.
David: Right.
Seth: The Pharisees are, they are the, they are the hard-hearted prophets-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and leaders, more interested in preserving Israel's national identity than extending mercy to Israel's, Israel's, like, destitute, the destitute-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... within Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: Even if they are Roman, even if they are Gentile-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... even if they are unclean. They're more interested in preserving themselves-
David: Right
Seth: ... and their pride than extending mercy to others.
David: Yeah. So-
Seth: So I think that's one reason.
David: Right.
Seth: Also, twice in the Book of Matthew and in the Book of John, it's also comes in the heel... Like, that comes right before he says the Queen of Sheba-
David: Mm
Seth: ... even came to Solomon, who, remember, Jeroboam II is a reincarnation of-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because he extends the borders of Solomon. But regardless, you have Jere- you have Jesus saying the Queen of Sheba, somebody not within Israel, coming to Solomon and recognizing that Solomon was God's chosen king.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's like, "And something greater than Solomon-Is here. So you have another Gentile-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... coming and seeing God's person-
David: Right
Seth: ... God's Messiah and giving glory to God.
David: Mm.
Seth: These Pharisees are failing to do that.
David: So Jes- what you're saying here, I think I follow you-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is in Jesus's application of the Book of Jonah-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... He is hitting on the same target we're trying to hit on.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is that this is about the scandal of Gentile inclusion.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Of including God's enemies-
David: Right
Seth: ... Israel's enemies-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in His plans for the world.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah. And, and remember, the Pharisees get angry almost every time that God shows mercy to one of the cultural outsiders, the prostitutes. You eat with tax collectors and sinners.
David: Mm. Right.
Seth: So you have Jesus surrounded by penitent pagans, just like Jonah is.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the Jonah, the Pharisees, are more devoted to denying God's call, and so they run away from God's mercy, and they head towards death itself-
David: Oh
Seth: ... which is what Jesus tells them-
David: Right
Seth: ... over and over again.
David: Which in that way, they're also like Jonah. [laughs]
Seth: They're also like Jonah. I think-
David: Yeah, running away from God and-
Seth: Right
David: ... toward death.
Seth: So I think the way that the gospel fulfills this story for us-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is that the Pharisees and those opposed to Jesus are Jonah-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and they will experience the same consequence as Jonah as well.
David: Yeah. It's also amazing that, I, I mean, there's a couple ways here that you see Jesus in the sacrifice of Jonah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, it's interesting because, like, you have such a clearly repeated story in Jesus calming the storm.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know, you've got-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you've got a storm, you've got God's chosen person-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... sleeping underneath the ship, and then on top you've got a bunch of seasoned sailors scared out of their minds because of a storm-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that God is clearly in control of.
Seth: Yes.
David: Uh, and they come and wake up God's sleeping chosen person in the bottom of the ship [laughs] and Jesus is, like, likewise kind of unconcerned, but not because He's uncompassionate or lazy, but because He knows who's in control. He knows the one-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who sent the storm because He is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the God [laughs] like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who sent the storm. So He goes up, and instead of having to throw Himself into the storm, He shows that He is the one that the sailors worshiped.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, He's the, He's the God that the sailors-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... worship to calm-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... the storm, so He calms the storm saying, "Okay, sailors, worship me."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, you know that, that the Lord-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Yahweh that is, that, uh, that Jonah talked about he was running from-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, that calm, that, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... that they worshiped after the storm was calmed, watch this. Be still.
Seth: Mm.
David: And the storm calms, and instead of worshiping, um, a god they didn't know or couldn't see-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they start worshiping. They bow down-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... on that boat in Galilee, and they worship Jesus. Jesus becomes the God of this story in Jonah.
Seth: And that, and that makes the disciples the pagan sailors.
David: That makes [laughs] exactly-
Seth: Yes
David: ... them the pagan... It shows our need to be, at least imaginatively-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Assyria.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We need to see ourselves as Ninevites-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and Jonah. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, it's like-
David: So-
Seth: ... to whatever extent we hate our enemies, we're Jonah-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and refuse to accept, extend God's mercy-
David: Right
Seth: ... we're Jonah. But to whatever extent we're un- fearful of the God who controls the storms-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and outside of God's covenant of Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... we're Assyria.
David: And we, and we realize our desperate need for Him.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: We, and we fall down and worship Him because we need Him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's when we're the sailors, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah. And so that, that's really interesting, but then it's also like Jesus is the one-
Seth: Yes
David: ... who's thrown into the water-
Seth: Right. So it's not to calm-
David: ... to calm the storm
Seth: ... the storm ille- illegitimate-
David: Right
Seth: ... to see in Jonah's self-serving-
David: Yes
Seth: ... whatever an an- or a, a, a, the opposite-
David: A false type
Seth: ... a false type-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... an anti-type to what Jesus does.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Jesus willingly-
David: Yes
Seth: ... throws Himself into the depths of the earth-
David: Right
Seth: ... to prove that God's presence is not, like, unable to reach the depths of the ocean-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the roots of the continent. And Jesus says it explicitly, "Just as Jonah threw himself in the ocean and spent three days in the belly of the fish, I will spend three days in the heart of the earth, and that will be the final sign to an evil and adulterous generation," which is what he calls-
David: Mm
Seth: ... people like Jonah and people like the Pharisees-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that God will save their enemies-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just as, as, as Jonah's time in the fish brought a revival among the Assyrians.
David: Man. Oh.
Seth: Which leads us back to Joppa.
David: Oh, it does?
Seth: Because so Jesus does what? In his death, he brings revival to the nations.
David: Right.
Seth: Jonah's death brings revival to Assyria. Jesus's death bring, will bring revival among the nations, but how's that gonna work out? Acts 9.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Peter is in the house of Simon the Tanner wondering if he can eat with a Gentile-
David: Mm
Seth: ... if Gentiles are worthy of the same inclusion and mercy that he has been shown as a Jew.
David: Right.
Seth: And in that same city that Jonah tried to escape from God's call, he receives God's call to go to the nations and save, and to be part of God's extension of mercy to all the nations.
David: Right, and that's whenever he goes to the household of Cornelius, and the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles the exact same way it fell on the, uh, apostles-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... in Acts 2 at Pentecost.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, they get a scandalous grace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in Romans 5, how does Go- how does Paul describe us?
David: Mm.
Seth: As enemies of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus' death and resur- resurrection offers forgiveness for all enemies of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... whether you're Jew or Gentile, which Paul also goes to great lengths to prove that we're all enemies of God on some level. [laughs]
David: Yes, he does go to great lengths in Romans to prove that. [laughs]
Seth: Oh, man.
David: Yeah. Man, I'm just like, I'm trying to, like, feel like Jonah-You know, 'cause I, I'm thinking, like, this, this sounds a lot like the parable of the older, and the older brother, the parable of the prodigal son.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know, you have this prodigal son. You guys know the story probably. He goes out, uh, basically steals his father's inheritance, basically tells him, "Hey, Dad, I wish you were dead," takes his inheritance, goes and squanders it on prostitutes.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Comes back, begs to be put back into the family and his father says, you know, "What do you mean? You're my son. Come, come on in. Take a ring and a robe and join o- and we're gonna throw a big party for you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, you didn't... That... He didn't deserve that.
Seth: Nope.
David: And it's a scandal that he got it.
Seth: Which the older brother-
David: And the older brother feels the scandal.
Seth: Yeah, and he... It's like he's right to, right?
David: He, he, yeah. And he won't go into the party and he's like-
Seth: No
David: ... "No." He's like, "I've been here working faithfully, you know, and you've never thrown me a party, Dad."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, I'm gonna have some dad issues now. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: You know? Like, and he's like, "Man, you've always been with me." You know, you guys know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... the story, and it's like that's the, that's the [laughs] that's what's happening here, isn't it? Like, is that it?
Seth: It is.
David: Is that the similar, the similar point?
Seth: It is. There's a lot of commentators that pull up on the similarities-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... between the reluctance of the older brother, the r- and the reluctance of Jonah, and the reluctance of the Pharisees.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the story of the prodigal son, remember, was told against the Pharisees-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because they were the older brother refusing to grant access to God's mercy when Jesus was extending it to Gentiles and whoever else.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: So yes, I think that's totally legitimate to see.
David: Yeah. I think, like, I'm not, I'm not quite, like, I don't wanna go tell my neighbor the gospel because I don't wanna see him saved.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So I don't quite feel that. I, I think it's more like-
Seth: Uh, yeah
David: ... have you met my neighbor?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, he's, like, a little, little filthy. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... I've heard him say some crazy things. [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm like, I just don't think he's gonna want it or-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's not for him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I'm-
Seth: There's... Yeah.
David: Yeah. It's not... Which is still a sin. It's a different sin, I think, but-
Seth: It is. I think there's a sense in which that we're, in the modern West, separated from the sting of this-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in some ways. I don't think that's universally true. I think there are people have, who have been hurt, oppressed, abused, um, and they don't wanna extend forgiveness. I mean, I think that even the most universal example is, like, a lot of us don't want our fathers to be forgiven-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for what they did to us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know? Like, or our mother that can't... You know, like, I think that's probably the most universal example. I would not... I would hope that God didn't show mercy on my mother and I would see her in heaven. I think, like, we could feel some of that weight.
David: People have been really, really hurt by-
Seth: Yep
David: ... their parents or, or, or, or really any, any, an abuser or something like that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to want to see them-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, like, unmeritoriously saved, not to, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... turn their life around and get their act together and... No, it's like in their dying breath-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... say they believe and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... get, get it wiped all out.
Seth: We could probably get close to if somebody, uh, somebody murdered somebody close to us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and they had, like, some sort of, like, death row conversion-
David: Right
Seth: ... we would be like, "They didn't do any..." And like, "I'm gonna see them in heaven." Like-
David: They're gonna get the exact same inheritance as me?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I can feel that a little bit more.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, and I think this exercise that we're doing right now is probably part of the point-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the Book of Jonah.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, I think we're supposed to be challenged to name the people we don't believe deserve God's mercy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to, like, to name the people in our lives we wouldn't want to be forgiven and be kind of honest about it, but... 'Cause in that challenge is the good news. While we will always have someone we will refuse to show mercy to-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus never will.
David: No.
Seth: And like Jonah, he'll descend into the depths if it means God's enemies can receive mercy.
David: Yeah. I'm-
Seth: And-
David: Yeah, yeah. I'm also feeling challenged, like, that I just don't see myself like Nineveh or the sailors.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? That-
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm just like, [laughs] no, I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm Amos back in Israel obeying God's word. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And it's like, no, I was scared and alone and worshiping the wrong gods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Jesus threw himself into the sea to save me, and because of that radical act of sacrifice and the storms of my life calming down around me, I just fell to my knees and worshiped God. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, uh, so I'm just trying to reflect on that, too, that, like, I'm, I'm Nineveh. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: You know? And I'm the s- I'm the Tortuga sailors and, uh-
Seth: These are-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... all... I think this is what the book... This is why I love the Book of Jonah.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's because it invites a type of reflection that I'm not used to from scripture. I don't think I've been challenged in this way by a scriptural text in a long time.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, when I'm reading 2 Peter, it's like, "Don't do this." Oh, I do that.
David: Yeah, I do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, I shouldn't do that. Yeah.
Seth: But this is, like, using, like, all my assumed notions about society and who's deserving and who's unworthy and my-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the, my self-justifying sense of who, who's in and who's out, and who's a cultural other that I can't accept. I'm like, man, that feels... It cuts deeper than I want to allow it.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Um, and I don't know what to do with it all the time.
David: Yeah. I think the last thing I'm thinking of in this chapter is, uh, just the, the, the, the, the difference between Jonah and Jesus and why they were thrown into the, the ocean, you know? You have Jonah, the lots fell on him. It was his fault. You know what I mean? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: It was his fault, and so he even reluctantly was thrown overboard. Um, and the, the seas calmed and-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the people were saved. Jesus, it was the sailors' fault, you know? Like-
Seth: Mm.
David: ... it, it wasn't his fault-
Seth: Right
David: ... [laughs] that the seas were, that were roaring, and the lot falls on us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And yet he says, "I will go and calm the storm by throwing myself into the belly of the grave," and then we get unmeritorious salvation. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we did not earn-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that moment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The, you know, it's a little different than Jonah 'cause in Jonah, the problem left.
Seth: Right.
David: You know, in our story, the problem stays. We're the problem, and the solution left, [laughs] you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, the solution gets thrown overboard, and yet that's what saves us. It's like no wonder our response would be just to drop down on the deck of the ship and worship-
Seth: Mm
David: ... 'cause, like, we did nothing to deserve that. It should've been me.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: The lot fell to me and it should've been me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I should've been thrown overboard, but instead Jesus was for me, uh, and it's like that is a scandalous grace.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, it's not...It, that should offend you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like Jesus dying for you and then you getting off scot-free-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that's offensive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That should be very offensive.
Seth: And it's hard for us to imagine ourselves as evil as the Assyrians.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And which is why it's, it's easy to take that for granted.
David: Right.
Seth: But I think that you're, I think you're right to start to as- like, we need to assume much less of ourselves and assume that we're much more like people, like the Assyrians, in need of grace, and that it's actually offensive to receive mercy. There's somebody out there like Jonah who would be offended if we believed, like, we got off scot-free.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: And they might be more right than we want to admit.
David: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I, there's probably somebody out there who really hates me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they, they do not wish for me to spend eternity in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, the presence of Jesus.
Seth: And what I wanna say, "Well, they're wrong." No, maybe they're right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Maybe they see me clearly enough and I need the mercy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that Jesus offers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a better Jonah.
David: And I need to be scandalized by it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, so I can drop down on the deck with the Tortuga pirates and worship God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Okay. Was that chapter one?
Seth: That's, that is chapter one.
David: Okay. Well, then, uh, next week we'll be in chapter two.
Seth: Talk about the great fish.
David: Being in the belly of the fish.
Seth: Oh, and I'm so excited because that means we get to talk a little bit more about what Jesus says-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when he says, "I will spend, like, as Jonah spent three days and three nights in the belly of the great monster."
David: Oh, right.
Seth: He doesn't, in Greek, he doesn't use the word fish.
David: No, he does not.
Seth: He says monster, and which I'm so excited to talk about.
David: Yeah. Can we tease maybe the word that he, he kind of uses? Speak- speaking of Pirates of the Caribbean-
Seth: Speaking of, yeah
David: ... it's so appropriate.
Seth: So he used the word kratos.
David: Oh.
Seth: Which I think is where we get the word kraken from.
David: So Jonah was in the kraken?
Seth: [laughs] I, there might be a little too little evidence to say that. However-
David: However
Seth: ... Jesus says that he was in the kratos.
David: The kratos.
Seth: So-
David: Okay, there we go. So we will see you guys next week to talk about the kraken. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Thanks for joining us and, uh, yeah, we'll see you next time.
Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
